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Atheism is irrational
The reason why i say atheism is irrational, is because it is human nature to search for god, and atheists are denying themselves of their own humanity, out of all the religions, ATHEISM is the least logical, not the other way around.
It makes sense on a level, where it is perfectly human to demand proof of existence of higher powers of any kinds.
It is perfectly human to not believe what you don't have sensible contacts with.
But when you think of that they think that everything we see, the beautiful trees in the garden, and the enormous universe with the most beautiful galaxies are made from nothing - that makes no sense to me.
Please don't dispute me with: It didn't come from nothing, it came from big bang.
Because then I'll just ask you where big bang came from - and it did come from nothing, if you don't have another explanation.
Pre-existence and blablabla - those are just excuses you make up, to hide the fact, that your beliefs are just as crazy as mine.
How can you believe the universe had to have had a beginning, but that God can be immortal and had no beginning?
Atheists don't "believe" the universe started with the big bang, it's just the best theory anyone has come up with so far.
The key difference between religion and science is that, if a scientist doesn't know something, he admits it, and then maybe tries to figure out an experiment to find out. If a religious person doesn't know something, he makes something up, and then defends to the death his right to believe it, and to make others believe it too.
A higher power is something that obviously is higher than you.
More powerful than you. And a higher power is what created YOU, and what created LIFE.
God is my higher power - he is what created ME and what I believe created LIFE.
If big bang is what created life.. then it must be your higher power right? If big bang is your higher power, then big bang is a God - and atheism is officially a religion.
I don't know about you, but I don't see the chemical reaction between several atmospheric gases and electricity as a "higher power". Just because none of our scientists have managed to perform abiogenesis, does not mean it cannot happen. There are trillions of planets, and abiogenesis took 1.5 billion years to happen on Earth. So you're right, the odds are long. But we can allow those long odds, because even if they are a billion to one, there have been quadrillions of opportunities for life to have been created.
Humans have never yet succeed in making life - a life with consciousness.
(I don't know if they have succeed in making plant life and stuff - do you know? I mean, you can buy seeds in a grocery store - but is it man-made or natural?)
But whatever - as I said, life is the one thing scientists have yet to accomplish.
Even though there is a possibility that life CAN be made (I doubt this though), I believe that creating life is something really powerful.
I mean, I think its interesting to learn about the human body, how it is made - how the universe is made and all the different elementals combining, and making new substances.
But what amazes me the most is life itself.
The fact that I am present (This is really hard for me to explain :p)
That I am aware of everything going around me .. I just think its remarkable.
And to think that God made life - I think that is just as crazy, as believing big bang created life.
Yeah, I share your wonder at the fact that somehow, particles that originated in the core of a star billions of years ago have been assembled into a form that can know itself. I think that the fact this happened through purely natural processes is just amazing, after all, it'd be more impressive if a smiley face accidentally got burned into my toast then if I used one of those machines that does it automatically.
Also, if you think that life on Earth necessitates a designer, or at least, a beginner, then surely God would need one too, since he is infinitely more complex than us.
Oh, and, no one thinks that the big bang created life. The big bang was the expansion of the universe where physics as we know it begins. Abiogenesis was the start of life on Earth. And no, I think it's less crazy to believe it happened naturally as, as I said, if complex life requires an intelligent being to create it, then surely that being must also require a designer. And if you say he is infinite or whatever, that's what I think the universe probably is.
I mean - there must be something powerful that made us right?
Why? Lets examine what we know. We know that we exist. We know (or we will assume, as we both agree on this) that all we know, space, time, and all the matter that we can observe, came into existence from the Big Bang a few billion years ago. That does not require that a higher power created the singularity that came before. It certainly does not require that a sentient higher power (God) created the singularity. Essentially, we just don't know. We just know it's nothing ordinary: that does not mean exceptionally powerful.
Also, how you use the word is somewhat relative. In an existence of many more dimensions than we know, no time or space or matter as we now know it, anything would be seen as 'powerful' to us. That does not require that something is a higher power.
Because human have NEVER succeed in trying to create life - and by that I mean a living creature with a consciousness.
Didn't we do that with Dolly, in 1996? Cloning is quite a common procedure nowadays, it was recently in the news that the Olympics will accept cloned horses into events (and it's likely that there will be cloned horses in 2016. Cloning humans could definitely be done if it were allowed (they may not be healthy, but they would be undeniably human).
Why? Lets examine what we know. We know that we exist. We know (or we will assume, as we both agree on this) that all we know, space, time, and all the matter that we can observe, came into existence from the Big Bang a few billion years ago. That does not require that a higher power created the singularity that came before. It certainly does not require that a sentient higher power (God) created the singularity. Essentially, we just don't know. We just know it's nothing ordinary: that does not mean exceptionally powerful.
Also, how you use the word is somewhat relative. In an existence of many more dimensions than we know, no time or space or matter as we now know it, anything would be seen as 'powerful' to us. That does not require that something is a higher power.
What I meant when I said there must be something powerful, I meant because life is so precious and .. rare if I can say that.
It is extremely weird - we don't understand it in any way, or do we?
Didn't we do that with Dolly, in 1996? Cloning is quite a common procedure nowadays, it was recently in the news that the Olympics will accept cloned horses into events (and it's likely that there will be cloned horses in 2016. Cloning humans could definitely be done if it were allowed (they may not be healthy, but they would be undeniably human).
Yes there was a sheep right?!
I really don't understand the process of a clone - and can't really tell you if I think that, the one or the ones who created Dolly, created life.
I doubt this - but I am not so clever in the subject, so I'm not gonna state anything :p
It is extremely weird - we don't understand it in any way, or do we?
Not really. And that is why whatever position you take (theism or atheism), it's always better to have an agnostic belief.
Yes there was a sheep right?!
A sheep has a conscious, and its mind was just as healthy as anyone else. Creating life isn't particularly difficult anymore, is my only point. But yes, I'll let you decide how much you agree in your own time.
I believe the universe probably did not have a beginning, you have to remember that time and causation do not apply when we are talking pre big bang. Oh, and the bang isn't the cause of the universe, it is the cause of the expansion of the universe.
This isn't what I believe, but it's just as valid as what you said:
I believe that the big bang/nothing are immortal: they don't have a beginning or an end.
You still cant seem to shake off the idea that atheism proposes its own theories. This simply isn't true. Atheist is just agnosticism with attitude; in other words, atheism doesn't know anything, it just rejects religious theory. To be an atheist is not to believe in nothing, it is not know where we came from any more than any other human being on this planet, but to know enough that some of the theories proposed by human beings on this planet are absurd. Indeed, I would say that believing absurdities is much closer to believing in nothing than anything atheism offers up, because your belief is measured by faith, which is, as we all know, your willingness to deny reality.
It is magic to reject, that this world was made by some kind of miracle.
I mean think about it - if .. protein wasn't made under big bang - no life in the universe could ever be.
If water somehow wasn't made - no life on earth or anywhere else in the universe would be.
I could go on .. if we never had oxygen, an atmosphere, clouds, a sun or if we remove all the natural disasters like volcano's breaking out, tsunamis and earth quakes ... if remove ALL of those happened through time before human was created - Humans probably never would have been made.
No tell me - how is it NOT a miracle, that miraculously - everything just fits into our needs?
Everything doesn't fit our needs - we changed to adapt to what was available in our environment.
I agree that the Earth being able to sustain life is an extraordinary coincidence, but when you consider that our planet is just one of many planets in our solar system which is just one of many solar systems in our galaxy which is just one of many galaxies in our universe which is just one of many universes in existence, the chances of life such as ours existing for a while on a planet like ours increases dramatically.
I came across a debate at one point where you seemed upset at someone for putting words in your mouth, for ignoring you when you tried to point out that you don't believe in the Bible. Its understandable to be upset when someone misrepresents what you are saying.
Now stop being a hypocrite.
Every atheist on this site has told you we don't "believe the universe came from nothing." We have either told you that we don't know where it came from, or pointed out mathematically valid possiblities to describe it, or have pointed out that if God can exist uncreated, why can't the universe. Several different approaches, but all with the same result. WHAT YOU SAY ATHEISTS BELIEVE IN IS NOT WHAT WE BELIEVE IN.
Pre-existence and blablabla - those are just excuses you make up, to hide the fact, that your beliefs are just as crazy as mine.
These "excuses" include hypothesis and theories created over the course of decades of thurough research by some of the most intelligent people who have ever walked the planet using some of the most sophisticated technology yet invented. And YOU are arogant enough to say it can't be true, just because you don't get it?!?
The theist is basically saying "there is no other way besides God." But in order for God to be a logical answer, one would have to confirm that he does, in fact, exist. The second best option is to rule out all other possibilities. But as we learn more about the universe, more possibilities are presented to us. We are growing farther from NEEDING God to explain anything.
The atheist, conversely, tries to see if there is a way aside from God. Well, there is evidence for that everywhere, in every field of science for hundreds of questions that used to be attributed to God. And I've seen people debate with you. Explanations have been offered, you've received plenty of key words to look up and research. I think I even saw someone give you a book recommendation on the subject. We have hardly shied away from explaining ourselves.
Well, if you said "everything is amazing/beautiful/incredible no matter what I believe" but I would support you more, because life is all of those things no matter how you believe it came to be. But magic has a specific connotation. It implies supernatural occurrence. Your claiming atheism is therefore more supernatural, when those of us atheists who are using science to support our claims are doing pretty much the exact opposite of citing supernatural explanations.
First, this is the second time you have implied that I am scientist, but I never claimed to be one. I have taken science classes, and am associated with scientists in many fields. I love it and study it regularly. But I do not do it for a living.
Well, yeah, it is a compliment, I just don't want to misrepresent myself.
I do think the universe is "amazingly ridiculously beautiful". I think life is a precious thing. I bask dumbfounded by the complex yet graceful majesty of nature and the cosmos.
However, I do all of this fairly certain that there are naturalistic causes for all that I see. I have seen many incredible things happen purely by the laws of physics and chemistry, by the cause and effect cycles that permeate every single thing. If I ever saw anything that happened completely outside of the laws of the universe, perhaps then I would call it magical. But so far, I can only count natural occurrences, not supernatural. Which is fine with me, because I do quite love nature..
Havent you ever heard of occams razor? Pascals wager? If god DOES exist, and you dont believe in him, you are losing EVERYTHING, but if he doesnt and you still believe in him you lose nothing, that to me is illogical thinking, how do you explain HOW the big bang came into existence? How ALL the materials came into existence? Its just deductive reasoning, and to be honest, believing god doesnt exist is more wishful thinking than believing god exists
I highly doubt that it didn't occur to a man as intelligent as Blaise Pascal that an omniscient God wouldn't see through feigned belief, Pascal's wager is a ridiculous argument, that when taken seriously regards God as a fool.
Ever heard of the Atheists' wager?
You should live your life and try to make the world a better place for your being in it, whether or not you believe in god. If there is no god, you have lost nothing and will be remembered fondly by those you left behind. If there is a benevolent god, he will judge you on your merits and not just on whether or not you believed in himSource
Occam's Razor, does not work for you either, a God/Primer mover is infinitely more complex than anything in existence, we need to make serious leaps of faith based on no quantifiable data in order to invoke God as the creator of the universe, so who is making the most assumptions?
HOW the big bang came into existence?
Certainly not by making up something.
How ALL the materials came into existence?
Materials, as in matter? it comes from quantum foam fluctuations all the time.
Its just deductive reasoning
No, it's begging the question, and it's creating an infinite regress.
and to be honest, believing god doesnt exist is more wishful thinking than believing god exists
So, believing in an omniscient, omnipotent, omni-benevolent, omnipresent, mind invading, Universe-creating, worship loving, charred livestock smelling, shave hating, shellfish avoiding, homophobic, filicidal, ethnic cleansing, logical contradiction is not wishful thinking?
I kept trying to upvote this but my computer acted like I pressed "pg up" every time, and scrolled up a bit instead of upvoting. Odd.
I like most of it but I could never buy into the idea of benevolent god; it's one of the main things that drove me from the Christian faith in the first place. You can talk about a good and just god all you like, but if you try to support that with any monotheistic dogma, you're not supported by scripture. The god I keep reading about, in other words, comes across as a deeply disturbed and cruelly vindictive god, more like one of the flawed and imperfect (but still immensely powerful) Greek gods. So I could never take the atheists wager because I think if there is a god, he will not judge me on my merits but on how my actions offended his delicate ego, and I'll fry for eternity because of it. This doesn't mean I don't like the first half of it, though.
Ah, Pascals Wager. True if god exist then the atheist are paying a heavy price. But what if you god isn't the real god? suppose you have chosen to believe in the god of Christianity, But is you die and suddenly you are seeing Allah, or the Olympian gods. Then what.
I'm on this side because the tags don't make any sense.
Atheism is not irrational. Why can't people disagree without calling each other irrational?
Anyways. It all comes down to a disagreement of how we find truth. Atheist want to find truth through man made scientific observation. Christians are typically sort of hybrids that go to God for spiritual answers but still use science.What makes atheists irrational is trying desperately to separate god and science to put down religious people.
Most of the Atheists I have met in person have been nice reasonable people that don't do this. But most of the atheists I've met on this God forsaken website are ruthless drones who perpetually shove their beliefs in the faces of others and echo each other over and over again. As you will probably see below..
Science is an intrinsically godless process. The only reason you have a computer is because one of our ancestors decided to actually find out how the world works instead of shrugging and going "goddiddit". The scientific method automatically assumes a naturalistic cause for everything, otherwise there is no point in doing science.
And that doesn't mean that one can't believe in both. You don't use music to solve a math problem but one could still argue that they are related. There are a certain number of notes in a song. There are diffident patterns of notes that equate to certain songs. So it's like trying to separate math and music.
"The only reason you have a computer is because one of our ancestors decided to actually find out how the world works instead of shrugging and going "goddiddit"."
I too believe that it is useless to just say "goddidit" along with all the other Christians I know. Most Christians (that I know)don't think like that. Try to be hypothetical for a second; if there was a god wouldn't he want us to try to figure some things out for ourselves instead of just telling us how everything works?
You should decide to actually find out what people around you believe instead of shrugging and going "they're stupid" that's not very scientific is it? Do you think it is? I really want to know. I wan't to know how scientific it is to assume the beliefs of others. Tell me.
"The scientific method automatically assumes a naturalistic cause for everything"
Well, you are right that we can't find out scientifically how everything was created. So all that we can do is assume. (scientifically speaking) So that doesn't really go against anything I have said.
And that doesn't mean that one can't believe in both.
I never said you couldn't.
You don't use music to solve a math problem but one could still argue that they are related. There are a certain number of notes in a song. There are diffident patterns of notes that equate to certain songs. So it's like trying to separate math and music.
I don't understand this analogy. What two things are we talking about here? Are we saying that music = God? Because if you are, at no point in science has anyone ever concluded that something was caused by a non natural cause, because you can't test the supernatural.
Well, you are right that we can't find out scientifically how everything was created. So all that we can do is assume. (scientifically speaking) So that doesn't really go against anything I have said.
It goes against everything you said, you see, I'm not sure you're understanding what I'm trying to put across. If you assume that something has a supernatural cause, that's it, you're done, you can go home, no more work to do, you can't test the supernatural. If you start off with the assumption that there must be a natural cause, you have to keep testing until you find what actually is the cause. And science is a bit like Scooby Doo. When you pull off the mask, it's always the fucking janitor. Every thing we've investigated has been found to have a natural explanation.
It is irrational to believe in something you cannot observe or test using any means. You can't test the supernatural, which is why belief in it requires faith. Faith is irrational because it is to believe something without sufficient evidence. If you have evidence, you don't need faith.
Then what's the point in telling me science is godless?
"at no point in science has anyone ever concluded that something was caused by a non natural cause, because you can't test the supernatural."
Right, I get that. It's just that atheists often act as though to be religious you have to disregard science. I can believe in god knowing that it was not proven scientifically.
In a debate atheist are always jumping to the whole it can't be proved argument as though I have already said that it could. They sort of assume my belief. That's not very scientific is it.
For the rest of what you have said. We disagree on how one can find truth. I believe that we can receive spiritual answers. You don't. And that's what it all comes down to. There's not a whole lot of debate we can have with that fundamental disagreement.
I've added an argument to each side as I dont really agree with either if you think about this too hard you will soon realise that neither is really rational, an Atheist will say that believing in a God because an acient book told you it was true, is totally irrational because there is no Scientific proof to prove it is so but a Theist could argue that as God created the World the Universe and Everything in it he also created Science and could be using Science to hide his existence and so test our faith, just as many characters in the Bible had there faith tested.
When the argument is thought about from both sides none of it makes any sense and the totally irrational part is that people will argue about it forever trying to prove they are right when the argument is unwinnable because it is very hard to change someones beliefs when they run deep
Atheism in a nut shell: The belief that there was nothing and nothing happened to nothing and then nothing magically exploded for no reason, creating everything, then a bunch of everything magically rearranged itself for no reason what-so-ever into self-replicating bits, that then turned into dinosaurs.
Makes perfect sense, doesn't it?
(really sorry if you find this offensive)
God doesn't makes sense to be honest either but I find it much more likely than what athiests believe in.
Atheism is irrational? Christanity essentially consists in believing an all-powerful benevolent (which is contradictory, since God forces people to worship, or apparently they are cursed to endure Hell for all eternity, if not) God that is capable of the impossible exists.
I didnt say christianity was rational, and im not religious, i dont trust religion, im just saying its irrational to deny your own human nature, thats like destroying your psyche, people dont understand that to believe in god you just have to believe, thats it, it doesnt require you to sell your soul, you dont have to take a huge long test, you dont even have to think about god at all, just acknowledging him and bringing good to others is enough to be in gods "favor" Religion is a form of control, none of the stories make sense when given alot of thought, and yes, the god in the bible is highly contradictory, but the fact remains, is that they still believe in some type of god, some type of creative life force behind everything
Saying atheism is irrational implies that Christanity (the largest religion, currently) is rational.
Atheists don't believe in God is because there is such a lack of evidence to, and that alternative theories to how the universe was created have actual evidence to support them.
Can you show any evidence that supports your claim that it is human nature to seek god, and, furthermore, can you furnish any support for the idea that not seeking a god is irrational, despite the fact that is may be human nature? One might argue, based on our history as a species, that violence is in human nature; are peace and diplomacy irrational because of this?
In the meantime, religions will continue suppressing human nature left and right and do so to our detriment. This is illustrated in the Catholic Church, for example, which teaches it's clerics that denying their basic, natural sexual urges is virtuous - so they rape children in secret, instead of having a normal, healthy sexual relationship.
Atheism is not a religion. Yes, it is human nature to ascribe agents in the form of anthropomorphic causes, but there is nothing wrong with overcoming primitive instincts in favour of another facet of our nature: scientific curiosity. By your logic we should carry on looking for the monsters in our cupboards because thinking there are nearby predators when you are in the dark is human nature, and therefore not looking for the monsters every night is to deny one's own human nature.
Instead, we look in the cupboard, realise there is no monster, and go back to sleep. And you're telling me that is the irrational course of action.
Eh... That is disputable. I personally believe that atheism is a religion, since the definition of religion is, "a set of beliefs concerning the cause, nature, and purpose of the universe," and since all atheists believe in an alternative theory of the universe to God, thus atheism is a religion.
This is not correct, many atheists happen to share the same belief about the origin of the universe, but atheism is quite literally having no religion.
Atheists have a set of beliefs concerning the cause, nature, and purpose of the universe, but those beliefs are not derived from atheism anymore than they are derived from non belief in unicorns. Religion dictates what to believe, atheism dictates nothing, it is nothing more than an absence of belief in god. There are no atheist rituals, no atheism structure, and no set of beliefs that all atheists adhere to.
Following our instincts without emotional thought or logic is probably what got is into horrible situations, and besides, dont tell me you never regretted not listening to your gut instinct, everyone regrets that.
I've regretted ignoring my gut instinct a lot more often, but then I'm a naturally very cautious person.
Also, your claim that it is human nature to search for god is unsubstantiated, and I don't believe it. It may be human nature to search for the truth, and some may believe they've found the truth in god, but others believe they have found the truth in science, so they're not denying themselves of their own humanity.
There is nothing in human nature which compels us to search for a god, there is however much in society which does. We do tend to project ourselves out into the world, and try to rationalize it. That rationalization and projection tends to take the form of a god, but it is not itself the search for a god. Increasingly, god is becoming less and less of a satisfying rationalization and projection.
It's human nature to look for answers, to try and understand what goes on, to try and learn more about the world around us. Humans are curious beings, with a (relatively) high capacity to learn, after all.
It is rational to base our answers off of the questions we see in life (why do we not float away from earth, because all objects of mass pull any other object of mass towards it), which can then turn into scientific theories, and test them, expanding our knowledge exponentially over the years, explaining the beauty in the world, benefitting humanity in untold ways, and many other things.
It is not rational to make up answers and create stories and stop others from asking questions. It is not rational to deny facts, reasoning, and logic, to maintain your age old answer. Religion is not rational. Theism is not far behind.
I never said religion was rational, religion is propaganda. (IMO) So wouldnt it be rational to wonder HOW all this stuff came to be? And if you dont believe in god you could just believe in the multiverse theory, or string theory, but god does not have to be a person, god could just be the force that keeps our blood pumping, wither way, there was some creative force to everything that has come into the universe.
I never said religion was rational, religion is propaganda.
I know, I realise I kind of went off on a tangent there. Unfortunately, these sorts of debates so often have a 'us v them' side to it, so that's what I'm used to.
So wouldnt it be rational to wonder HOW all this stuff came to be?
Yes. And that's what science does, it seeks to answer it all by assuming nothing, under strict scientific procedure.
And if you dont believe in god you could just believe in the multiverse theory, or string theory
You are assuming that everyone needs to give an answer as to how the universe started. Quite frankly, I don't know. I don't feel that science can currently provide a good enough answer for me to agree with it completely, and I don't think that religion is a good alternative. Now to me, that's the main difference between 'New Atheists' and theists, when theists don't know they say God did it, where atheists don't know they say they don't know. Also, you're assuming that atheists believe in science, which many don't. Atheism is the lack of belief in a God, that is all. But yes, I understand why you make the connection.
but god does not have to be a person, god could just be the force that keeps our blood pumping, wither way, there was some creative force to everything that has come into the universe.
See, now that's an entirely different argument. I do agree that there is an uncanny beauty in the universe, an amazing connection between it all, and that we are exceptionally lucky that it all fits together. But I do not see that as God, I see that as beauty, as luck, as simply how the world is. To me, a God is an omnipresent, all powerful being that exists independently of matter and time. I do not think that exists, therefore I am an Atheist.
Even if he existed he is the cause of so much pain and misery. Almost all wars from the beginning of civilization were fought in the name of a god or gods. Why does he let all the suffering continue. If you say its part of gods plan then there can't be free will because it was planned. If you say its because he gave us free will then there can't be a plan, free will leads to random events. It can't be both. So if its free will then he just left us here to suffer and doesn't do a damn thing about it. If its a plan, what kind of sick plan is that. If your going to spend your afterlife in eternal bliss or torture, then why would people need to suffer so much in this one? Eternal bliss should be a reward for being a genuinely good person. You shouldn't have to suffer to show loyalty to god. That just sounds like hazing.
I am human, and I have no desire to search for, know, or otherwise interact with a god. This would seem to invalidate the very premise of your argument, wouldn't it?
Atheism is irrational? Oh right, so i guess some cosmic being and his magic zombie half dead half alive magician white ( but Asian ) Son Created the Earth in 6 days ( despite there being no time or sun e.t.c.) And is the murderous savior of us all. Yeah, totally legit..
