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Actually Icarus, atheism, or at least nontheism, hols humanism as key. Religions with end times myths, like Islam and Christianity, actively support and look forward to the end times and will inadvertently support the fulfillment of the end times (see the war in Syria, or the support of the state of Israel). If one believes this life is all we have, they are far more likely to try to prevent something happening within this lifetime. If one believes that this is only a test before going to heaven (or some afterlife), they are less likely to be as attached to this lifetime, or this world. That would mean that Atheism would make us die less quickly.
Indeed, even if the study is accurate concerning the life span of the faithful, atheists tend toward scientific discoveries that benefit us all. So, in their shorter lives, they lengthen the lives of the rest, faith or no.
Almost all beliefs involve proving other people's beliefs to be wrong. Christians, Muslims and Jews are all "enlightened religions", in that they believe they have answers given to them from a higher power. Two of those, Islam and Christianity, have in their religion that they must spread this "truth" to others. So that would imply that you would also believe that "enlightened religions should not be allowed to spread their beliefs either.
atheist have no beliefs to spread. if this is about spreading beliefs of dawkins, hitchens, sam harris and all the other "intellectuals" and "atheist activists" than yes, they should forever shut the fuck up because:
a. they're amateurs
b. they aren't intellectuals
c. atheism doesn't need activism
d. being a non-believer is difficult when people compare and identify you with brain dead morons like those mentioned above
and e. a lot of idiots want to be a part of atheist community simply because it enables them to focus their hate on someone like the religious and even the agnostics
Not all Atheists compare theists to "brain dead morons". Almost everyone I know, especially my family, are religious. And they are no where near being "brain dead morons". I believe that religious people can be smart, their intelligence just isn't as focused on facts and science as atheists are MOST of the time. And I can't argue with E. Because you did say "a lot" although I would change that into a few, it is true their are some atheists who are like that, but for the majority we aren't trying to focus hate on anyone. We are simply trying to make people be more reasonable and understand what we believe is the more logical way to look at things.
And Theists do not? Both sides would probably say the same thing regarding the other. We should be able to voice our opinions on our non belief just as you guys should be able to spread your opinion on your beliefs.
I'd be interested to read the research that shows atheists have a lower life expectancy. I'd suggest historically this could be true because Christians would kill non-believers as heretics.
Bro if you are going to preach pro-religious nonsense then at least change your profile picture, dear god It looks like I am chatting with the devil from hell lol
What the hell are you talking about, how open mined are you, I said pro-religious not pro-Christians learn to read before you came at me like that man.
And as for the devil well hate to break it to you but this dude is universal and is used in any religions.
How am I preaching pro-religious 'nonsense' when statistics say that Atheists are more depressed/ shorter life span/ higher suicide rates than that of the religious?
No. Im not going to run a google search for a newspaper article. If you can present the actual research paper then we can talk about it. We'd need to look at the controls of the research to see what exactly can be deduced from it.
Only in religious communities, in secular communities they are equally happy, maybe we should ban religious communities as secular ones are obviously more healthy for everyone
Suicide rates do not have a statistical significance in life expectancy figure. Also the research doesn't suggest atheism causes suicide. Have you read it? Why suicide rate are lower with religion people is because 1) In many Islamic countries suicide is illegal 2) those with religious convictions are often morally opposed to suicide - being that God is the only one who can decide who lives are dies.
In conclusion, that article is pretty much irrelevant and I wish you had read it before hand :/
This is a case of "God giving you the spring, you just refusing to drink" although his laziness is an issue, him, telling you to use google in the wake of actually providing the article is not his denial of evidence.
I guess as an example it would be as if a murder happened in another room, and the person telling you of it said go look in the room, and you said "Bring me pictures or it's not true"
Smart people tend to have shorter lives because intelligent people are more prone to depression, stress and pessimism.
What about all the people who had their lives shortened because Yahweh's or Alah's or Buddha's or Odin's followers didn't agree with what they were doing?
The major religions take suicide as an act that deserves hell. People not want hell.
You clearly have not read my link, and I feel stolen that you decide to call me a stereotyping troll despite statistical evidence, stating that secularists have higher suicide rates than the religious.
What does the article have to do with the debate? The article draws parallels to suicidal behavior in religious non-affiliation, how does that interfere with the ideology that atheists "spread"?
Communism has no bearing on freedom of speech, what you mean to say is Authoritarianism or Totalitarianism as these governmental systems provide the basis on which your rights are provided. Communism is an economic system that is compatible with these forms of government and is most often thought as synonymous however it is not so.
No it doesn't. Freedom of speech can be limited in a number of cases. For example, you have laws of defamation in the USA and you have law against talking about state secrets.
Well.... you could go to Mexico, or Somalia, or Nigeria.... where instead of bullying you they just kill you. The US is not bigger a "bully haven" than any other country.
If you are an Atheist and are banned from talking about your beliefs whilst all around you other people are allowed to talk about theirs then surely that would be worse torture than being allowed to talk about them.
So what if being an Atheist is possibly unhealthy, drinking, smoking, chocolate, fast food and motor vehicles are not good for you either should we ban them as well?
In a world of freedom of speech and freedom of religion you have been given the right to believe or not believe in whatever you want, if you want to keep that right you have to allow it to others.
How does it cause physical harm? Even if it is true that atheists have a lower life expectancy, this does not mean that atheism caused harm that caused an earlier death.
Causation is not correlation. If atheists have shorter lives than Christians there is still no evidence to believe it is caused by atheism.
There is also evidence to show that there is more 'social dysfunction' in societies that are more religion. However, I don't believe that is a cause of religion. Perhaps it is more about the type of people that blindly follow religion or the type of laws religion countries have - but this would only be speculation.
Exactly. It would be a illogical for me to come to that conclusion based on that research. Similarly, you shouldn't believe atheism causes an early death.
But only Atheists were recorded and compared by people who are only Religious, which clearly contrasts a difference in life expectancy and happiness.
If you come to think about it yourself, people would be generally happier with the idea of heaven in their heads, more so than people who expect a vast nothingness in their deaths and no savior.
Im sorry, I don't understand your first paragraph.
Well I agree that the idea of heaven would be a nice comfort and would make me happier. However there are many things about Christianity, for example, that would make me very unhappy. For example, the fact that I'm under the thumb of a God that allows such horrible things to happen but yet I feel obliged to worship him or else risk going to hell. I'd also be very unhappy that the people who I care about, that aren't Christians, are going to burn forever in hell.
Concerning the first paragraph, there has already been shown a difference between Atheists and the Religious in life expectancy and suicide rates.
To deny any of these statistics is to deny all comparative statistics in history.
You're assuming people wouldn't take action to avoid going to hell. You see, people are taught and encouraged to live moral lives, and in living moral lives, they are happy with themselves in the process. They know that they can escape hell because the thought of eternal suffering is more than enough of a push to get them living with morality, but for Atheists, the void of death is inevitable.
Not to mention, Christians hold a relationship with God and Jesus, they pray and congregate with people who share the same beliefs. If they are worried that a loved one is Atheist, they still have the power to convince them to convert. If such an option isn't possible, then it is saddening, but God isn't unchanging. Many people believe that God will forgive these people. The pope himself said that Atheists who live moral lives are forgiven. It sure beats knowing that everyone will cease to exist and that their energy would disappear to nowhere.
On that note, I must recommend the often hypocritical "ChristianForums.com". I would love to see how some people here would react to the unique population there.
Oh and don't let being a non-Christian stop you, either. My icon over there is "Pagan".
In no way have I indicated any bias against create debate.
I have only provided statistical evidence that Atheism includes lower life spans/ higher suicide rates/ more depression, which we simply cannot allow to spread.
Not at all,being a atheist relieves the wheight on your shoulders because in religions they tell you cant do sin and if you do you start getting scared then go suicidal.
You're assuming people wouldn't take action to avoid going to hell. You see, people are taught and encouraged to live moral lives, and in living moral lives, they are happy with themselves in the process. They know that they can escape hell because the thought of eternal suffering is more than enough of a push to get them living with morality, but for Atheists, the void of death is inevitable.
Not to mention, Christians hold a relationship with God and Jesus, they pray and congregate with people who share the same beliefs. If they are worried that a loved one is Atheist, they still have the power to convince them to convert. If such an option isn't possible, then it is saddening, but God isn't unchanging. Many people believe that God will forgive these people. The pope himself said that Atheists who live moral lives are forgiven. It sure beats knowing that everyone will cease to exist and that their energy would disappear to nowhere.
Spread? You can't necessarily spread how some people have lower life spans than others. Atheism is not a "plague". Atheism is the choice to not believe in religion. If I said Christianity was a plague, then you'd be mad too, right?
You actually have indicated a bias against debating, as you have said that you do not believe someone with a belief that differs from yours should be allowed to speak on it. You ignore any logical reason behind the correlations you assert, immediately assuming a causatory relationship (which is rather silly).
I found an interesting article in the Christian Post whilst it agreed that Atheists living in a largely religious community suffered from more depression than the religious the same study found that in a secular society they were equally as happy, the article also felt that the results showing that Atheists are more prone to depression should be used to help treat people with depression by taking into account peoples religious beliefs not ban Atheism, pretty good I thought for an article I was expecting to have more of a bias towards religion. The two paragraphs that stood out to me follow:
"The article, however, warns against jumping to conclusions based on studies such as these, and says the statistics should not be used by people to force interventions onto others. It suggests that the best use of such information would be for clinicians making psychiatric evaluation of patients, who can take these results into consideration when noting the patient's religious or spiritual beliefs, or lack thereof.
Another study, which examined almost 200,000 people from 11 European countries, also showed that religious people are generally happier than their non-religious counterparts. The results, however, hold true largely in places that have a large religious presence. In more secular societies, happiness levels amongst believers and non-believers were mostly the same"
If anything all these studies prove is that living in religious societies causes depression in some Atheists whilst living in a secular society does not have an adverse effect on the religious so if anything we should have only secular societies as these are obviously the healthiest for everyone.
I disagree because in the first place, without atheists beliefs, then debating with someone about religion would be nonsense. Besides, there is nothing wrong for believing that there is no God. I believe that they should also be able to spread what they believe, and let other people just judge on who would they choose to believe.
Might I also add you have called me "stupid" before.
So you are attacking me, therefore you cannot deny that you are attacking me. I can choose to play the victim, there is nothing to stop me from taking offense.
I can handle it, I am only claiming that you are doing it and it must stop it for the simple fact that I am not doing it to you. Why were you are denying it. It is troubling to me that you were denying it. It's safe to say that you're the real troll here.
My grandad on my mums side was an Atheist and died of old age aged 92, my grandad on my dads side was Catholic and committed suicide before I was born, proof to me that your theory is rubbish.
Not being religious does not make you more prone to depression any more than being religious is any more likely to save you, if you suffer from depression badly enough and don't get help it can lead to suicide regardless of your beliefs.
Individual anecdotes do not have any bearing against statistical averages. I hope you are educated enough to understand this.
You are only answering subjectively. Look to the facts:
The idea of heaven in one's head is much more reassuring than ceasing to exist in death.
Since people do not like hell, they are encouraged to live moral lives which makes them happy about themselves for doing good deeds. Atheists are not required to live moral lives and will expect everyone, including their loved ones to simply cease to exist in their deaths.
There is no saviour, no one to pray to, no church to congregate to share common beliefs, no security in the world that there is no God protecting us in Atheist beliefs.
OK I will look to statistics as the real world does not suit you. Studies have proven that depression is higher in Atheists yes but this mainly occurs in religious communities, studies have also shown that in secular communities Atheists and the Religious are equally as happy proving that religious communities are not as healthy as secular communities.
Correct but secular communities hold no mental health issues for either the religious or atheist so you must concede a secular society is healthier than a religious one, it also proves that being atheist does not cause depression but being atheist in a religious society does. The only healthy option for everyone is a secular society.
That's irrelevant I'm sure your educated enough to understand that your statement has no bearing on the statistics that religious people and atheists are equally happy in a secular society
Yes, but if we're talking about causing shorter lifespans, don't you think that we should ban smoking, drinking, doing drugs and other things that cause shorter life spans? Those cause more harm than being an Atheist.
I am not old enough to net much benefit to society. Just because you drink a lot doesn't mean you are a strong drinker and of course you drink significantly more than I do because if we were to tally, on average I have a drink every three years or so and not even a whole drink, just a taste.
So; you don't really know what you are talking about strong drinkers are a burden to society.
But whatever. I'm more interested in what you mean by "strong drinker" are you saying I can't hold my liqueur or that I am weak? Or: What do you mean by "strong drinker"?
Yes, I do understand what a strong drinker is. I don't know if you can hold your liqueur or if you are weak. All I am saying is a strong drinker "A person who drinks alcohol until it impairs his ability to judge situations and scenarios" is a burden to society.
Are you saying that Atheism will not make it worse? Is the word 'worse' even in your vocabulary.
I'm a little confused as to what you mean. Could you clarify?
My point is that those are all things that shorten life spans, but the government allows because it's our own bodies, our own brain, and our own choice.
Lots of things add to the issue. Why is it fair to just ban atheism, and not smoking, drinking, obesity, etc.? If Atheism truly does shorten lifespans, it certainly doesn't shorten them as much as other things. So why single it out?
is doing something that shortens life-spans not a backwards action against humanity and the human experience?
Apparently you've never heard of drugs, sex, and rock-and-roll, not to mention sky-diving, extreme sports, or... living.
Either way, my point is, if more people start dying at younger ages, I'm not going to personally be all that upset by it because there's too many people on this globe anyways. It was kind of a joke.
Either way, you can't stop people from spreading their beliefs because the truth they've accepted is bleak. Just like they can't stop a christian from spreading their beliefs because their beliefs are crazy.
Like. Seriously. You can't stop people from speaking their minds just because what they have to say might negatively impact someone else or themselves. You can't stop the spread of ideas and beliefs just because you don't agree with them or you think they're harmful. You can't control people. And when people try to control people, it creates public outcry and underground movements.
2.01% percent of the world is Atheist. I don't think we will meet much resistance. I don't even mean that they shouldn't be permitted to spread their beliefs literally. I just don't think it is a thing that should be encouraged, considering the implications, not to mention the moral implications that Atheists may not be compelled to do as much moral acts as the religious since they have no God to impress, and the world is obviously in need for moral acts. If they wish to bring the world shorter life expectancy, higher suicide and depression, even though religion and atheism don't have direct proof, then Atheists seem to be at a lower end.
Atheists may not be compelled to do as much moral acts as the religious since they have no God to impress
Ohhhh man. Oh man this is the wrong thing to get into right here.
Let's see. How much genocide has taken place in the name of atheism? How many murderous marches have taken place against people because they have religions. Mmm... None. Let's talk about impressing god. How about the Crusades. Let's talk all of the violence in the middle east and the constant disrespect towards women. The Salem Witch Trials. The Spanish Inquisition.
How about all of the religious hate towards people because they're gay. Or y'know. Different.
You wanna talk morality, maybe religion isn't a good place to start.
Morality doesn't come from god. It comes from being raised to be a good person and having understanding and compassion for your fellow man. Personally, I live by the mantra of, "We're all in this together." Which is a little ironic considering my complacency towards people dying off. But hey. I'm a hypocrite.
Atheists usually have to deal with all of that religious hate, and a lot of the louder ones put way too much emphasis on fighting religion. There are a lot of factors in determining why they have shorter life-spans. If they truly do. But. It's great if you don't think it should be encouraged, and it's great if you want to spread that message. That's fine. But everybody should be permitted to spread whatever message they want unless it's outlandishly violent or dark.
Hitler was essentially a secularist who despised the Jews and their religion. Atheists aren't a fan of religion are they not?
The lack of religion, or God's guidance has influenced a great deal of deaths. People who have killed and discriminated in the name of the major religions have obviously misinterpreted the bible or holy books, and have overseen "do unto others as you would unto yourself" or to "love thy neighbor." The essential morals that religion introduces are what I am speaking about, morals practiced by typical christian families.
Religion isn't unchanging. Whatever transgressions it has caused in the past will remain in the past, as people are learning to accept Gays, to allow gay marriage, to love thy neighbor. Don't blame the religion, blame the people.
Hey. Hitler wanted a pure Aryan race, his despise of the jews isn't mimicked by Atheists, though. That's a dorky falsehood you're presenting there, and absolutely classic, too. My point is that your religion doesn't determine how moral you are. And obviously, if it was staring you right in the face, you'd shrug it off, too.
His lack of guidance in religion and his bias against the certain religion influenced his actions.
If he was religious, things would of turned out differently. Murder is obviously a sin deserving hell, and Judaism is a religion that is linked with the world's major religions.
Hitler was brought up Catholic and was a regular churchgoer during his childhood, he remained a member of the Catholic Church until his death so his lack of religious guidance was the fault of the Church. Also its unclear what his religious beliefs as an adult were, he contradicted himself frequently when talking about religion.
Hitler was essentially a secularist who despised the Jews and their religion.
Hitler was most certainly not a secularist, his whole book Mein Kampf is based on his sense of spiritual superiority to others, in may paragraphs he quoted bible verses directly or commented on their implied meaning.
Because he most likely had a mental disease. The reason why i'm debating this is not to yell at you its to correct your misgivings about the ideology of Hitler, being he wasn't a secularist he was a religious person, which contradicts your post.
Sorry but they have as much ability to state their mind as the rest of us. Natural Selection would actually be better applied that eventually, due to shorter lifespans, atheists would eventually 'die out', while those who lived longer would continue to exist.
I am catholic, but as an American i believe in the first amendment right of freedom of religion, which includes the right to choose atheism. trying to censor them hurts the perception of Religions such as my own by presenting followers such as myself as having a blatant disregard for others personal rights and freedoms.
I do not beleive that forcing someone to believe someone will lift their spirits. Likely it would have the opposite effect and make them feel even worse.
Telling someone that they can not believe what they want to believe is not "lifting there spirits", it is psychological subjugation, and subjugation often times leads to depression. The statistics refer to people who choose to be religious. You can not force someone to be and expect the same result. It has to be their own choice.
You are speaking about Atheists? They populate 2.0% of the world, I don't think their depression will take over the majority of religious people who are comfortable in their religion.
then why bother even taking action to outlaw atheism then. The only effect it would have would be hurting the atheist, as you yourself said that the majority of people are already comfortable with their religion.
Do you understand that the connection between atheism and shorter life span/suicide/depression is missing link called intelligence?
Atheist are per capita more intelligent than strongly religious people. There is genetic connection between higher intelligence and depression/suicide.
So; your argument would boil down to "The intelligent should not be permitted t read their beliefs".
If your argument is that only non-intelligent beliefs should be spread; you should relax, because you are close to winning.
If it indeed is true that theists live longer, than it obviously hasn't got anything to do with belief in God. It must have something to do with lifestyle, etc. Whatever makes theists live longer, atheists can replicate.
First of all, it isn't a plague. And if anything, it is good that we spread it. People need to learn how to think for themselves more and stop depending on a god that isn't going to do anything for them. People place all their hope and trust in "god" instead of being independent and actually working for what they want/need. And I have yet to come across significant proof that atheist die faster, and even if we do, is that really a bad thing? We all die anyways, and at the rate we populate it is fine. So I don't see the big issue here. But then again, I am a realist, where as most religious people are not, so I don't expect you to fully understand that. We have the same rights to spread our NON beliefs as Theists have the right to spread their beliefs. Equal rights, freedom of speech. Plus, you clearly aren't an atheist, so you personally have nothing to worry about anyways.
Being Athiest isn't what is lowering their life expectancy. Athiests just don't live their lives according to a religious book, so they tend to take up more unhealthy habits... and they also tend to be more intelligent, which can make them more prone to depression.
"It has already been established that Atheists have a shorter life span than their religious brethren."
No, it has not been established that atheists have a shorter life span than their religious brethren, and it takes only a few minutes on Google to see this. Any study which leads to such a conclusion is narrowly short-sighted and fails to address the most important variable; society itself.
I'll demonstrate:
First off, lets look at the life expectancies of some of the most religious countries, and compare with some of the most non-religious.
With very few exceptions, the non-religious countries tend to beat out the more religious countries overall in life expectancy.
From this data, one might come to the opposite conclusion. It would seem atheists have the longer life span while theists live poor, uncivilized and rather short lives. Maybe theists shouldn't be allowed to spread their beliefs?
But, of course, this sort of comparison isn't exactly apples to apples here. Obviously members of a poor, uneducated society will have harsher, more difficult, stressful lives than those in richer, more developed ones. And, as most any health study will show, high levels of stress lead to higher rates of ailments such as heart disease and depression, which, in turn, lead to a shorter life span. To put it in simple terms, more stress generally equals shorter life.
This is important and becomes evident when you do an apples to apples comparison, looking at religious and non-religious people of the same country. Almost all of the data comes from U.S. studies but, in general, religious people have a health advantage when they are part of a majority (like in the U.S.) and lose that advantage if they are in a society where they are in the minority.
It is obviously more stressful to live life as an ostricized and hated minority than it is to live as a member of the socially accepted majority. As many studies have shown, atheists are the most distrusted minority in the United States; in some cases, distrusted even more than rapists. Atheists are also almost completely excluded from participation in politics in the U.S. with some states even having laws specifically prohibiting them from running for public office. Atheists receive little to nothing in the way of public support, and thus, it is not surprising at all to see that they have higher rates of stress and depression as compared to the religious majority. Studies concerning homosexuals will show similar results; I'd say for similar reasons.
The problem is that some societies are too concerned with social cliques and stigmas and not as supportive and accepting of diversity as they may think they are. Look again at places such as Denmark or The Netherlands. These cultures are not entirely atheist by any means, but they place almost no importance on religion at all in society. Religion is a private matter and is rarely mentioned in everyday talk. They're very secular societies and people simply don't care what religion you are; and I think it's no coincidence these countries tend to rank very high in terms of overall happiness and life expectancy. NY Times article on religious culture in Denmark/Sweden.
The issue is not just whether or not you are atheist or theist, the issue is how does society treat you for being atheist or theist, and how does that effect your health.
It spreads on it's own all the time. Every time a child gets kidnapped or murdered, or someone gets cancer after living a modest life, or anytime someone is about to commit suicide and asks for one last sign.
Okay, post the statistics of athiest and christian life span before you make a claim as bizarre as this. At least then I'll know you aren't talking out of your behind.
Atheists should be allowed to voice their arguments for a number of reasons.
1) Everyone has freedom of thought, and should have equal right to voice those thoughts.
2) If the atheist has a concern or objection to the existence of God, it's important that believers know what that objection is, so we can examine it on it's own merit, and reply thoughtfully.
3) If eternity really is riding on this, then it's critical that atheists bring their concerns to the table.