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Can Anyone Lose His/Her Salvation Or Once Got Salvation Will Never Lose It?
Those advocates "Once we are saved, no force can make us fall from the hand of Jesus. So, we are always saved." They give the following verses for the proof. "I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand.My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father’s hand. (John 10:28-29) (also Romans 8:38-39; Ephesians 4:3 and others)
But, those advocates "Once saved is not always saved says that, we will be saved for a while only, it is not our eternal salvation. They say that if a righteous person (saved one) has no possibility of losing his/her salvation then why did God warn righteous person in Ezekiel and why did Jesus say "...that whoever endureth to the end shall be saved" ? They also refer the following verses. "You who are trying to be justified by the law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace" (Galatians 5:4) "The righteousness of the righteous man will not save him when he disobeys, and the wickedness of the wicked man will not cause him to fall when he turns from it. The righteous man, if he sins, will not be allowed to live because of his former righteousness" (Ezekiel 33:12) (also Hebrews 6:4-6; 10:26 and others)
My personal opinion is "Once Saved Is Not Always Saved." And what Jesus says in John is "Conditional Security" i.e. as long as we cling on to Jesus, He will never forsake us, nor anyone will snatch us away from His hand.
You must understand something first: we do not have free will in the matter of absolutes and because we have no strength to choose God, as Romans 3 says, we have no choice to leave God and thus Jesus will not let anyone snatch us away from Him. Read the first chapter of Ephesians and Romans 9 to display how we have no free will. You have already cited not getting lost by Christ but also make sure to read the end of Ephesians chapter 1, which says that believers have been sealed with the Holy Spirit. This is also why the only unforgivable sin is to reject the Holy Spirit, because the only one who can bring you to faith in Christ is the Spirit and when you reject Him (via the will of God), you reject his offer to seal you with His grace, and why you cannot be saved.
However, in worldly terms, we feel as if we have free will, which is why the Bible says that we have a choice. Remember, we have no absolute free will. This is why the Paul warned of people leaving the faith and this is why James said at the end of James for if a brother witnesses another brother leave the faith, he must bring him back. Correct? The only problem with saying that it is "Once saved, always saved" is that it is a bit misleading. It is "perseverance of the saints," one of the 5 tenants of Calvinism.
But also, in James there is a key point in Chapter 2 that says that even demons have faith in Christ. It then goes on to say that there is a difference between faith, as in head knowledge, and saving faith, as in trust. Saving faith is the key and when you have this you also have good works accompanied by it, which is why there are so many parables by Christ saying that a good tree bears good fruits and a bad tree doesn't bear any good fruits. All bad trees will be thrown into the fire. And you must also remember the parable of the sower and the end of chapter 5 and chapter 6 of Hebrews that says if a man abandons the faith, then He cannot rejoin the faith for Jesus would have to die again. This contradicts the end of James if there is only one type of faith. This is why people don't understand it: people mix the worldly type of chosen faith, that the people who cried "Lord, Lord" had, with saving faith, a faith that God Himself holds you together with.
1 John 2:18-19 (ESV) ~ Children, it is the last hour, and as you have heard that antichrist is coming, so now many antichrists have come. Therefore we know that it is the last hour. They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us. But they went out, that it might become plain that they all are not of us.
Because it made no sense to me. How could worshiping some unseen being possibly get you an ever-lasting paradise? Because someone else said so, that's how.
You are 100% correct with saying, "Because it made no sense to me. How could worshiping some unseen force possibly get you an ever-lasting paradise? Because someone else said so, that's how." I do not disagree with you one bit.
So do you believe that Africa is real? Do you believe that Asia is real? Have you seen either of these places? Have you seen every person on earth? How do you know that they are real? If you have to experience something, then you are limiting your knowledge!
You must be consistent in your beliefs! Have you thought that maybe, just like you have never seen Africa or Asia or every person in the world, that someone else might have seen these things? And that multiple people's testimonies are somewhat reliable? So why can't that apply to a spiritual sense? Not everyone has seen Africa, so why do people believe it is there? Because we have been told things from other people that is is real. The same thing is true for Jesus of Nazareth and of spiritual things. There are multiple eyewitness accounts of Him doing miraculous deeds and prophesying the future and even being risen from the dead! Why is it that you disavow one thing but not the other in the same way; why is it that you affirm one thing but not the other in the same way?
Wow that...that was...just...wow. I've never thought of it that way. You're right, but, that doesn't make it true. I choose not to believe in a religion and that's how I'm going to stay.
Also, I forgot to mention that I simply don't believe in the religion itself. The idea of the all powerful creature called god doesn't appeal to me in the slightest. It's not something I want to believe. Perhaps I'm wrong and I just don't want to believe because it doesn't suit me but my choice stands.
I do, however, believe in energy. I believe that energy is the origin of everything, physical and non. I don't think a god made us. People would be better off focusing not on how we got here but why we're here. And I'm still trying to figure that one out.
There are some miscreants in CreateDebate site. After they are defeated in my "Can Anyone Show A Single Error In The Bible?" they are trying to interrupt in this debate as a result of frustration.
Please stop responding them. The fool says in his heart, "There is no God." (Psalms 14:1).
You know, the book of Proverbs says "Do not answer a fool according to his folly, or you will be like him yourself." (Proverbs 26:5).
Then, you can ask me "brother Alpani Suni, why did you answer them if the Bible says not to answer a fool? " My answer is - I answered the fools as the previous verse (Prov 26:4) says "Answer a fool according to his folly, or he will be wise in his own eyes."
Therefore, I answered the fools to prove their foolishness. And after people came to know about their foolishness I need not to answer them anymore. So, if I continue answering them, then I also become fool like them. Because the Bible says "There is a time for everything" (Ecclesiastes 3:1); (1) A time to answer the fools (to prove their foolishness infront of everybody) and stop answering a fool, (lest people will also think about us as third grade persons as the fools are).
Please participate in my next debate "Should we answer the fools or not?"
You can use satellite images to prove africa and Asia is there. In fact if you had enough money you could even fly into space and see africa and asia.
The same thing is true for Jesus of Nazareth and of spiritual things. There are multiple eyewitness accounts of Him doing miraculous deeds and prophesying the future and even being risen from the dead!
I have seen Liberty City. Its in Grand Theft Auto. I have seen a movie called Avatar, so does Pandora exist? I have seen video depictions of the assassination of Lincoln, did it happen? I have seen.............. The point is that you cannot know anything for certain.
Eyewitness account are unreliable.
Actually, during the time of Christ eyewitness testimonies were not. The culture of the time was passed through oral tradition and it was not like telephone. Everyone was accustomed to being able to question and repeat things in order to ensure accuracy. And even if you want to argue that eyewitness testimony of the day was bad, then you would still have to answer the amazing similarities of the Gospels of Christ! There are amazing resemblances between them, yet they are not exact copies, which any historian will tell you that this is a good sign that they are more than likely non conspiracies. Outside of that, you have multiple accounts of Jesus doing these very things from hostile sources of Christ, sources that hated Christianity. There are accounts of a herald saying that he practiced magic and was leading Israel astray. You have Phlegon saying that His predictions came true and that He rose from the dead... Jesus was God.... stop lying to yourself if you are a non-Christian!
"Did you know that the text of the OT was preserved by a radically strict set of rules (which you would expect if God had spoken!) For example a scribe could only use certain types of animal skins, had to speak every word out loud when copying, had to get a child to read it to make sure his copying was clear, and if he made too many mistakes (even if he corrected them) he had to burn the whole scroll! The scribes were also fanatical counters of everything to make sure that their copies were perfect. For instance they knew that there were 97,856 words in the first five books of the OT, and that Leviticus 11:42 had the middle letter of the first five books. Until 1929, we used a Hebrew manuscript from the 1500s for our basic text, then we switched to one that was 500 years older. Do you know how many letters were different between these two texts? Only four! The Jews were fanatical about the accuracy of the text and thus we have the OT as it was written. The Dead Sea Scrolls only served to increase our confidence of the accuracy of the OT text because they contain a scroll of Isaiah that is over 800 years older than any other copy of Isaiah, and yet it has no different words that the later texts of Isaiah!
The NT text is preserved in literally thousands (over 5,000 at last counting) of ancient manuscripts. We even have a piece of the Gospel of John written 20 years after the book was originally composed! Even liberal scholars agree that the text we have is true to what was originally written (only 1 out of 100 words is in any doubt and none of these affect any doctrines and their meaning can be determined from the context.) In addition to scripture texts we also have tons of scripture quotations in the Church Fathers, old lectionaries, and other early translations. (F. F. Bruce’s The NT Documents: Are They Reliable? is an excellent book on this topic.)"
People could still be bribed to say certain things.
have seen Liberty City. Its in Grand Theft Auto. I have seen a movie called Avatar, so does Pandora exist? I have seen video depictions of the assassination of Lincoln, did it happen? I have seen.............. The point is that you cannot know anything for certain.
Those are poor examples those are from movies/video games while satellite images are not.
If a historian, who is hostile to the Christian faith, is bribed he is going to be bribed to advocate Christianity... not disavow it by saying that it is evil. That means that you have only disavowed one source, Phelgon, out of many.
Those are poor examples those are from movies/video games while satellite images are not.
How do you know? How do you know that people have lied to you about Africa and Asia? Have you heard of Orson Welles? Research the "War of the Worlds prank." He also went on to direct, produce, and star in multiple movies as to show that film is unreliable to trust by making them ultra-realistic (at the time). Many people during that time actually believed that film was a means of learning about the world that they could not see; many did not realize that they could be lied to via film. You could have been lied to, through those very images you see of Africa and Asia.
Who said that some of it is not real? Are the actors in the movie Avatar not real? Do you not see their actual face? So if you want to go that path, then you advocate the planet of Pandora! haha
If satellite images are just movies/video games then how are you able to see your house, work etc. in it?
You are advocating that because on part of an image might be accurate that the entire thing is too. That is a fallacy and in need of correcting. The movie avatar is partly accurate by partly not. How do you know based on your definition?
I have seen not seen them in real life, but I have seen them in the movie. That just advocates my opinion more.... because it shows that even though we see them on film, it doesn't mean they are real.
That is another fallacy. You do not know that that could be or could not be possible. You have to take that information based on trust from other people. You have to believe that there is no person in the world who can do that; this comes not from first hand experience but from other sources.
You are basing that on what you are capable of, not what others are capable of. You don't know what other are capable of... if you are to say that it is impossible because you can't do it then you are saying that you are superior to everyone.... which is very proud.
There are some miscreants in CreateDebate site. After they are defeated in my "Can Anyone Show A Single Error In The Bible?" they are trying to interrupt in this debate as a result of frustration.
Please stop responding them. The fool says in his heart, "There is no God." (Psalms 14:1).
You know, the book of Proverbs says "Do not answer a fool according to his folly, or you will be like him yourself." (Proverbs 26:5).
Then, you can ask me "brother Alpani Suni, why did you answer them if the Bible says not to answer a fool? " My answer is - I answered the fools as the previous verse (Prov 26:4) says "Answer a fool according to his folly, or he will be wise in his own eyes."
Therefore, I answered the fools to prove their foolishness. And after people came to know about their foolishness I need not to answer them anymore. So, if I continue answering them, then I also become fool like them. Because the Bible says "There is a time for everything" (Ecclesiastes 3:1); (1) A time to answer the fools (to prove their foolishness infront of everybody) and stop answering a fool, (lest people will also think about us as third grade persons as the fools are).
Please participate in my next debate "Should we answer the fools or not?"
This argument is for people that believe in the existence of God. Not for people that don't believe in God. So, please don't participate in this. It is illogical.
This argument is for people that believe in the existence of God. Not for people that don't believe in God. So, please don't participate in this. It is illogical.
What you gonna do? Ban me like you do everyone else that doesn't share your opinion? I came here with a simple question and, yes, I got answers. That's all I wanted. Why should I not be allowed to participate just because I'm not a believer?
A connotation is something that a culture attaches to a word. A denotation is the literal definition of something. When trying to communicate, we must take both of these into consideration. If we do not, then we lose communication effect.
There are some miscreants in CreateDebate site. After they are defeated in my "Can Anyone Show A Single Error In The Bible?" they are trying to interrupt in this debate as a result of frustration.
Please stop responding them. The fool says in his heart, "There is no God." (Psalms 14:1).
You know, the book of Proverbs says "Do not answer a fool according to his folly, or you will be like him yourself." (Proverbs 26:5).
Then, you can ask me "brother Alpani Suni, why did you answer them if the Bible says not to answer a fool? " My answer is - I answered the fools as the previous verse (Prov 26:4) says "Answer a fool according to his folly, or he will be wise in his own eyes."
Therefore, I answered the fools to prove their foolishness. And after people came to know about their foolishness I need not to answer them anymore. So, if I continue answering them, then I also become fool like them. Because the Bible says "There is a time for everything" (Ecclesiastes 3:1); (1) A time to answer the fools (to prove their foolishness infront of everybody) and stop answering a fool, (lest people will also think about us as third grade persons as the fools are).
Please participate in my next debate "Should we answer the fools or not?"
This argument is for people that believe in the existence of God. Not for people that don't believe in God. So, please don't participate in this. It is illogical.
All you do is ban the people who disagree with you. What you're doing is nothing more than censorship, you have to silence the opposition, simply because you dislike what they say, or you're unable to defend your position. Probably both.
I would have been able to respond to you in the other debate, but you banned me, therefore making it impossible for me to respond to you.
Oh, He's very loving! He has offered you a way to everlasting peace... you just have to accept it! Problem that no one wants it? Thats because no one wants to be with God and the only way for someone to want to be with God is if He makes them. The non-elect would choose hell over God, meaning the real God, any day. This includes Christians before they became Christians... divine interference must take place! It is required for anyone to go to paradise!
You're missing a fundamental point... God is not evil but only love. He is only good and nothing about Him is evil because evil is the lack of good. He simply turns His back, intentionally of course. Does that give Him fault? By no means; for we have still sinned. He has allowed it to happen so that in our weakness we may find refuge in Him! Praise be to God!
We're going in circles.... God allows evil to happen so that great things may come about! We do not understand it just like in Genesis 50:20 and in Matthew 16, but no one can get around His will. He simply "turns his back" to something and evil comes about. it was His will to turn His back and from there He chooses to love some and to turn His back more on others. Does this put God in the wrong? By no means; for the person whom God turned His back to did in fact do evil. You must also remember that, as Romans 8 says, His elect are "foreknown." This word in Greek basically means to have fellowship with. God has chosen whom will be His fellowship and those who will display His wrath, therefore, displaying His love that much more! Praise be to God!
Who says that He is not all-living? Should God destroy evil now? Everyone would be wiped of the face of the earth. He loves us so much and endures with much patience, as can be seen in Romans 9 and 1 Timothy 1, so that His will may be done. He also loves you so much that He has offered you a way out of this punishment... you just have to take it! Problem that no one takes it unless the Holy Spirit allows them to? You must also remember that just as there are two types of faith, there so too are loves. A general love for His creation and a saving and merciful and gracious love for His elect.
Ecclesiastes 8:11, "Because the sentence against an evil deed is not executed speedily, the heart of the children of man is fully set to do evil."
There are some miscreants in CreateDebate site. After they are defeated in my "Can Anyone Show A Single Error In The Bible?" they are trying to interrupt in this debate as a result of frustration.
Please stop responding them. The fool says in his heart, "There is no God." (Psalms 14:1).
You know, the book of Proverbs says "Do not answer a fool according to his folly, or you will be like him yourself." (Proverbs 26:5).
Then, you can ask me "brother Alpani Suni, why did you answer them if the Bible says not to answer a fool? " My answer is - I answered the fools as the previous verse (Prov 26:4) says "Answer a fool according to his folly, or he will be wise in his own eyes."
Therefore, I answered the fools to prove their foolishness. And after people came to know about their foolishness I need not to answer them anymore. So, if I continue answering them, then I also become fool like them. Because the Bible says "There is a time for everything" (Ecclesiastes 3:1); (1) A time to answer the fools (to prove their foolishness infront of everybody) and stop answering a fool, (lest people will also think about us as third grade persons as the fools are).
Please participate in my next debate "Should we answer the fools or not?"
we do not have free will in the matter of absolutes and because we have no strength to choose God, as Romans 3 says, we have no choice to leave God and thus Jesus will not let anyone snatch us away from Him
I am going to answer your statement above very soon.
That is patently untrue. Our first parents had free will and chose badly. The Israelites had free will and many times chose badly and had to repent for forgiveness. At the end, they killed God's son, so no repentance or forgiveness is possible. They "shrank back" to destruction.
Romans and Ephesians are talking about those who are standing firm. They cannot BE snatched away, as if by someone else. But they could leave of their own free will. These do not WANT to leave and continue to ENDURE TO THE END in DOING God's will. Therefore, God will not leave them. That is the guarantee.
The fact that you can choose what socks you wear or what god you worship shows your free will. God will not force anyone to worship him. He is like a good parent who wants his children to come to him out of their own love and free will, because they want to.
You have no Biblical backing for any argument that you have presented.
we have no free will.
That is patently untrue. Our first parents had free will and chose badly. The Israelites had free will and many times chose badly and had to repent for forgiveness. At the end, they killed God's son, so no repentance or forgiveness is possible. They "shrank back" to destruction.
Romans and Ephesians are talking about those who are standing firm. They cannot BE snatched away, as if by someone else. But they could leave of their own free will. These do not WANT to leave and continue to ENDURE TO THE END in DOING God's will. Therefore, God will not leave them. That is the guarantee.
The fact that you can choose what socks you wear or what god you worship shows your free will. God will not force anyone to worship him. He is like a good parent who wants his children to come to him out of their own love and free will, because they want to.
Free will in the absolute sense is not real. We feel as if we have it but in reality everything has already been preordained to happen. And if you are a Christian, you should find comfort in the lack of free will over that of your own will; for do you fear God or love Him? For no one seeks God, and everyone, in the human realm of choice, has already chosen death, Romans 3:10-18. God must choose us, out of the billions who hate Him and reject Him, to be His elect. You saying that you have free will to choose God is a boast of self-confidence, as if you could do anything. You have been given faith because you reject God in every sense: Romans 12:3, "For by the grace given me I say to every one of you: Do not think of yourself more highly than you ought, but rather think of yourself with sober judgment, in accordance with the measure of faith God has given you."
Here is one of my posts earlier on it, while talking about Romans 9:
Free will does not exist. Everything is predestined. But yes, to our humanity it seems as if we have free will. If you have any questions afterwards just ask.
Psalm 139:13-16 (Notice the part in which he says that God has pre-planned our days)
For you formed my inward parts;
you knitted me together in my mother's womb.
14 I praise you, for I am fearfully and wonderfully made.[a]
Wonderful are your works;
my soul knows it very well.
15 My frame was not hidden from you,
when I was being made in secret,
intricately woven in the depths of the earth.
16 Your eyes saw my unformed substance;
in your book were written, every one of them,
the days that were formed for me,
when as yet there was none of them.
Daniel 4:35 (Notice that no one can fight God's will)
35 all the inhabitants of the earth are accounted as nothing,
and he does according to his will among the host of heaven
and among the inhabitants of the earth;
and none can stay his hand
or say to him, “What have you done?”
Colossians 1:16-17 (Notice that if He is before all things, then He preordains them to happen)
For by[a] him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things were created through him and for him. 17 And he is before all things, and in him all things hold together.
1 Corinthians 4:7 (Notice how we would have nothing if God had not given it to us, including our thoughts and actions and impulses)
7 For who sees anything different in you? What do you have that you did not receive? If then you received it, why do you boast as if you did not receive it?
Matthew 6:8 (Notice how if God knows what you are going to ask for and that if He responds to your prayers with a "yes" that He had to pre-ordain things in order for them to come about)
8 Do not be like them, for your Father knows what you need before you ask him.
John 15:16 (Notice how God chooses for us and the allusion back to prayer)
16 You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit and that your fruit should abide, so that whatever you ask the Father in my name, he may give it to you.
Revelation 17:17 (Notice how God even has a hand in the works of the beast)
for God has put it into their hearts to carry out his purpose by being of one mind and handing over their royal power to the beast, until the words of God are fulfilled.
Romans 8:28 (Notice how God calls according to His will and how everything happens for the good of those who love Him; the only way for good things to happen would be if God had His hand in something; everything works for the good of His people)
28 And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good,[a] for those who are called according to his purpose.
Proverbs 16:1-4 (Notice how God has made everything for His purpose, which includes the plans of a man's heart)
16 The plans of the heart belong to man,
but the answer of the tongue is from the Lord.
2 All the ways of a man are pure in his own eyes,
but the Lord weighs the spirit.
3 Commit your work to the Lord,
and your plans will be established.
4 The Lord has made everything for its purpose,
even the wicked for the day of trouble.
Psalm 115:3 (Notice how this alludes back to Romans 8:28)
3 Our God is in the heavens;
he does all that he pleases.
Isaiah 46:10 (Notice how He says that all will be done to His purpose)
10 declaring the end from the beginning
and from ancient times things not yet done,
saying, ‘My counsel shall stand,
and I will accomplish all my purpose,’
Romans 9:17-23 (Notice how Paul is saying that people will respond in a certain way, which indicates that Paul has clearly defended the doctrine of God's sovereignty and the lack of free will)
17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.” 18 So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills.
You will say to me then, “Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?” 20 But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, “Why have you made me like this?” 21 Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use? 22 What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23 in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory—
And I would like that add Ephesians 2:8-10, just one extra out of the many that I did not include:
For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.
Before I get banned, I'd like to draw attention to a debate I made on the topic of the consistently appalling debate strategy of the creator of this debate, sunialpani. He declined to accept my personal invitation to participate in the debate, but perhaps you will find my critique of his idiocy enlightening and entertaining to engage in:
No, he bans anyone who disagrees with his positions. Just look at the debate he posted just now about "atheists always lose debates", I've already been banned
Sir, please consider my explanation. Paul says "Work out your salvation with fear and trembling" (Philippians 2:12).
He does not say, "Work for your salvation." He says, "Work out your salvation." We can not work out something that we do not have. We have to possess salvation before we can work it out. Salvation comes first, maintaining it comes next. It is maintaining our salvation which is the subject matter of our debate.
God was the first to ask whether or not people could lose their salvation. We find God asking this question in Ezekiel 18:24: "'But if a righteous man turns from his righteousness and commits sins and does the same detestable things the wicked man does, will he live?'" God is asking, "Will he live, if he departs from his righteous ways?" And what was the answer? "'None of the righteous things he has done will be remembered. Because of the unfaithfulness he is guilty of and because of the sins he has committed, he will DIE (spiritually).'"
He does not say, "Work for your salvation." He says, "Work out your salvation." We can not work out something that we do not have. We have to possess salvation before we can work it out.
That's not the argument, how you GAIN salvation. THe question was can we LOSE it once it is gained. And the answer is yes, we can.
We work OUT our salvation by REMAINING FAITHFUL "to the END" as Jesus said.
We CAN "shrink back to destruction", thus having our names "blotted out" of the book of life.
You cannot ever lose your salvation. Being saved means you have eternal life, but if you can lose it at some point in time its not really eternal is it? Paul said "I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do" Romans 7:15. He was talking about himself still being a sinner, so would that mean he isnt saved because he sins? If we lose our salvation every time we sin so that would mean no one is saved because no one is perfect and Christians sin.
It is correct that John 10:29 does not necessarily preclude the possibility of walking away from one’s own salvation. And it is also correct that one interpretation of Hebrews 6:4-6 is that believers may walk away from their salvation. However, other natural interpretations for Hebrews 6:4-6 exist that do not lead to this. For example, none of the terms used to describe those who fall away are used anywhere else in scripture to refer to the saved. So, a possible interpretation is that the people described may not have been saved to begin with. Furthermore, the rest of Hebrews 6 goes on to seemingly make a strong case that the saved cannot lose their salvation. Much could be said about this passage, but that's probably better for a separate question. In order to make the case that believers cannot walk away from their salvation; I would point to 1 John. 1 John deals a lot with authentic vs. inauthentic salvation, and how to know whether you have authentic salvation. It also teaches that people with authentic salvation will always remain. For example: 1 John 2:19 (NIV) "19 They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us." The people that John is referring to (antichrists) left of their own free will. John uses this leaving to demonstrate that they had never really belonged to the church. Even more, he says that if they had really belonged to the church, they would have remained. If people could walk away from their salvation, John would not have said this, because it would be quite possible to really belong, and then not remain. A common argument for the ability to walk away from one's own salvation is that we can use our free will to abandon it. This is based on the assumption that our free will remains intact once we are saved. But the Bible does not support this assumption. In fact, we are told that we don't exactly have free will to do some things: 1 John 3:9 (NIV) 9 "No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God’s seed remains in them; they cannot go on sinning, because they have been born of God." God's seed remains in us, and we cannot go on sinning. Something changes in us when we are born of God, and we cannot live a lifestyle like the one we had before. Though this verse doesn't necessarily preclude it, it does remove the basis for the assumption that we should be able to abandon our salvation by our free will. Lastly: 1 John 3:6 (NIV) "6 No one who lives in him keeps on sinning. No one who continues to sin has either seen him or known him." Someone who once was saved and abandons his faith has the following characteristics: He keeps on sinning Does not know God, but he has seen/known God in the past (otherwise he was not born of God to begin with) This verse tells us that those two characteristics cannot be harmonized. No one who continues to sin has either seen him or known him (past tense). Thus, a saved person who abandons his salvation is a walking contradiction to this verse. That Christians will not "continue to sin" does not mean that they will never sin. If this were John's meaning, he'd be contradicting himself from just a couple chapters earlier (1 John 1:8). What it means is not necessarily agreed upon by all Christians, but one thing is certain - it does not mean that Christians will never sin, as 1 John 1:8 makes quite clear. It means Christians will not continue living in unrepentant sin. As Christians, we will still sin (as Paul describes it in himself in Romans 7:14-25), but we will wrestle with it, and the Spirit will compel us to hate it where we recognize it in our lives.
Cherry-picking the Bible is always fun, it can be done with almost any topic. By logic, assuming the religion true, let's use an addiction as an example. You're addicted, realize you need help, go to therapy/rehab, and come out clean. Some of those who come out clean will stay clean, others may fall back in. I'm sure it'd be the same.
No one will be banned if giving valid arguments. It is the platform of debate. Since you do not believe in the existence of God, better you do not participate here. Because this is for people that believe the existence of God.
And I do not care about my points. I would bother if any legitimate participant scores me.
Yeah, that statement is totally not true. I need only remind you what happened at the last debate, where you banned virtually everybody who disagreed with you. It wasn't because they put up bad arguments, it was because you couldn't think of a way to refute their arguments. So instead of doing the appropriate thing, and debating your position, you chose to silence the opposition.
Once saved is not always saved. Because the Bible frequently warns human beings to keep themselves from falling.
Though God promises us security. It is totally conditional i.e as long as we are with him (staying with Him depends upon us) no one can snatch us from the hand of Jesus.
There are many verses in the Bible which supports once saved is not always saved.For example, Jesus said "And that, who endureth to the end will be save." What's about it?
You know, if all you Christians out there could give us "fools" at least a LITTLE piece of evidence that some god exists, most of us would probably believe.
I don't mean the Bible. That wasn't written by god; it was written by humans as a rulebook and a form of control.
So why don't you stop trying to prove us wrong and start trying to prove yourself right?
A lot of Christians just say: "This is what the Bible says" and "this is what I believe" when trying to witness to others. While I do believe that the Bible is true, others do not. So going and saying "well this is what the Bible says" is not really going to get others' attention towards God because people who do not believe in God say or think things similar to what DemonicUlqui said: "That wasn't written by god; it was written by humans as a rulebook and a form of control". There IS hard evidence out there for God's existence but Christians do not want to talk about that. They only want to talk about what the Bible says, which others do not believe.
Although this is not the subject of the debate, I do think that this can be a lesson to all Christians.
"So why don't you stop trying to prove us wrong". Why is because Atheists and Evolutionists still can be proved wrong despite us proving our religion correct. Just as Christians think Evolutionists, Creationists, and Atheists are wrong, so will Evolutionists, Creationists, and Atheists think that Christians are wrong. Just as they see what they believe as correct, so will Christians. Just as Evolution is not proven, Christianity is not proven. Just as there is a lot of evidence for Christianity, there is evidence for Evolution. Just as Creationists, Evolutionists, and Atheists try to disprove Christians, so will Christians try to disprove Creationists, Evolutionists, and Atheists.
Really? How do you explain how random amino acids came together in the exactly perfect form to make the first protein?
I explain it in terms of you trying to create a laughably bizarre false dichotomy whereby, unless there is an explanation for how "random amino acids came together" evolution is therefore not proven.
In actual fact, what you describe has nothing to do with evolution. You are essentially asking how life began, and nobody knows the answer to that question. Evolution is the (proven) theory that life adapts to its environment and (generally speaking) becomes more complex over time.
If you found a charged phone laying in the middle of the woods, would you automatically assume that that phone is the result of a chance? Would you not say it is impossible for a phone to result out of the ground? Or what if a print shop exploded, and resulted in a color book bound and makes sense with real sentences? Would you not say that is impossible?
Just the human eye is more complicated than any made machine by humans.
I believe salvation may be lost depending on the degree of sin a person commits. Christians and Catholics differ in this context. Some religious groups believe that when Jesus died on the cross, every sin that was committed and will be committed was forgiven. Which is why some Christians believe that everyone may enter heaven.
But in Catholic context, everyone was called to enter heaven but they will only need to repent from sin and follow the commandments. Failure to do so would result in eternal damnation. So I believe that salvation would be lost depending on the degree of sin committed by a person. If a person commits murder and does not have any conscience for what he committed, then salvation may be lost due to the denial of moral values taught by religion. But if he repents, then he is saved.
We have no clues for this since none has come back from heaven or hell but based on religious context, this hypothesis may be constructed.
We are discussing this from the Bible. As the Bible says, there is no great sin that won't be forgiven. Ofcourse, the Bible specifies one particular sin "the sin against the Holy Spirit" and this nothing other than to reject the Spirit continually. So, if anyone doesn't reject the Holy Spirit (God Himself) he/she will never do such a blunder that, can't be forgiven.
So, I am agree with you that, salvation can be forfeited. And as you stated, sins like worry or depression will not let anyone lose his/her salvation. And not only sins like murder which will cause the lose of salvation, but there are other types of sins which are enough for the cause of losing salvation.
The holy spirit is a representation of forgiveness. It doesn't mean that rejecting god is the greatest sin; it means that unforgiveness is the only thing that cannot be forgiven.
No doubt, unforgiveness. While mention "continual rejection" not "just rejection" . When we continuously reject, we reject all times thereby never accept Him. Got my point? That's why I said unforgiveness. I didn't mention reject even a thousand time, but when one continue on rejecting, then definitely it is difficult for him to accept the Lord which is unforgiveness.
It has nothing to do with god. Unforgiveness doesn't mean not accepting god, it means not forgiving people when they have wronged you. It has nothing to do with religion.
Once saved is NOT ALWAYS saved, according to the Bible.
The Bible talks about a book of life, and that those whose names are written down in the book of life CAN HAVE THEM BLOTTED OUT.
Matthew 24:13 "He that has endured to the end is the one who will be saved."
Hebrews 10:36, 39 "You have need of endurance, in order that, after you have done the will of God you may receive the fulfillment of the promise. Now we are not the sort that shrink back to destruction, but that have faith to the preserving alive of the soul."
1 Corinthians 9:27 "I browbeat my body and lead it as a slave, that, after I have preached to others, I myself should NOT BECOME DISAPPROVED SOMEHOW."
Philippians 3:12-14 "Not that I have already received it, or am already made perfect, but I am pursuing to see if I may also lay hold on that for which I have also been laid hold on by Christ Jesus. Brothers, I do not yet consider myself as having laid hold on it...I am pursuing down toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God by means of Christ Jesus."
Philippians 2:12 "Keep working out your own salvation with fear and trembling."
So no, once saved always saved is not a Bible teaching. We have to WANT to DO God's will. As Jesus said, "The one DOING the will of my Father" will be saved, and "enduring to the end."
