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In self paced learning if you want to do your work at night, you can. If you want to do it in the morning, you can. Whenever you want to do it. If you have a job and you can't do it in the morning, then you only have the night to get it done or you can get a job at night so you can do it in the morning. See? Easy peasy ;)
If you were more literal, if you want to do it in your underwear, you can. If you want to do it in bed, you can. If you want to do it by the pool side, you can. If you want to take your Leerjet to France for lunch and do it while sitting outside at a table, you can. See? Easy peasy ;)
Absolutely! Fate is the schematic set as a grid for our development, but free will is the action enacted along said grid. Consider:
A person is very unhappy with their life, they feel empty. Their profession doesn't match their calling. For example, a lawyer that was meant to be an artist. Fate is the set of variables that prompt an artistic lifestyle and need for expression - they become unhappy and likely endeavor into something artistic when they retire to fill their need. Free will is the action taken through their life (likely guided by societal constraints [need for money, unplanned children, etc...]) irrespective of their "calling".
If you subscribe to astrology, you can think of genetic/energetic makeup as "fate", the road the human vehicle drives on, whether or not they choose to drive off the road is their "free will". :)
Haha, I'm still offroading, damn flying spaghetti monster didn't include instructions for this car. All I know is that it looks good, and its stick-shift is huuuge :p
Free will is not just "the action taken"... it is the willful and intentional taking of action independent of any external influence. There is no proof that such free will exists, though there is mounting scientific research attributing more and more of our behavior to genetics and conditioning.
In margins. 100% Determinism would preclude free will, but we already know that free will, if it exists at all, is incomplete. Nobody can do just any old thing they want to. Don't believe me, take of your clothes, go outside and choose to be invisible.
So it would be possible for them to coexist as long as neither is 100%. You can't choose if that volcano behind your house is going to blow, but you can choose to get yourself out of there.
No, free will is the ability to choose a set number of possibilities to act out. In the end all actions lead to one outcome. That is your fate. Regardless of what we do our fate is to die. Fate doesn't limit you at all. It waits at the end of the road. Now if you are talking about medium fate which tries to say "You will become a lawyer" then I agree with you.
If God is all powerful and all knowing then when he made mankind he made them to do exactly the actions that he knew they would later do. Free will doesn't exist in the Bible.
Doesn't mean someone knows what will happen to you next, doesn't mean you did not made your way there. Though it is no denial that God can tell the future, if he did not intervene with your actions, your the one responsible for your results.
3000 years ago, or whenever the biblical Earth was made, God sat down with his magic ingredients. Imagine he used ingredient X5431 and in doing this he knew that in 2050 Bob was going to 'choose' to kill someone. If God had used X5432, Bob would not kill someone. God has the superhero power of controlling absolutely everything so he can alter whether Bob kills or not without altering anything else. Yet, he decides to use X5431 instead of X5432. How is it Bob's choice when God decided to use the "Bob is going to kill" ingredient?
Life isn't a straight road; your the one who will choose which path to take. If God will not intervene with your decisions, I see no violation of free will
In my scenario God intervened. He chose the ingredient that made Bob do it. "Choice" is an illusion. Imagine it was a robot. I could choose to programme it so when it gets to the end of the table it 'chooses' to jump off. I could also programme it to get to the end of the table and not jump off. Of course the choice of the robot is not a free choice. Why is Bob's choice a free choice?
What ingredients would "X5431" be then? Genes? Social Pressures? Culture? Hunger? Im afraid I cannot find any situation/ingredient that would deny anyone from choosing his actions.
As for your robot argument, have you ever consider programming it on how to preserve itself? Otherwise it would only do as what you command.
What differs a human from a robot is the fact that we have a concept of self-preservation, morality, and freedom to choose. As long as we can practice this without any forms of restraint, Freewill will exist
What ingredients would "X5431" be then? Genes? Social Pressures? Culture? Hunger? Im afraid I cannot find any situation/ingredient that would deny anyone from choosing his actions.
The ingredient is God's magic. is another incredient for whether on the 12th of April 2025 Bob will make a coffee or a tea. God's power is infinite and he designed Adam and every other human being therefore exactly how he wanted.
God thought "should Bob kill... erm... yes I think he should". Are you stating that God didn't have the power to do this? Or rather are you stating that an he chose not to make the choice? The latter is impossible. If you know the consequence of choosing ingredient then you choose the result.
As for your robot argument, have you ever consider programming it on how to preserve itself? Otherwise it would only do as what you command.
"preserve itself" would be just a label. If I am the perfect programmer I can programme it to act exactly how I want it to act in every situation - assuming I can predict every situation - which God can. The robot would not have true freewill, it would just be making reference to my perfect design.
self-preservation, morality, and freedom to choose
All of these don't exist if God was all knowing when he made the choices he did in the creation of Bob.
Doesn't mean that God has the capabilities to stop tragedies, doesn't mean that he should. And doesn't mean that he can see where you are headed, doesn't mean that you did not direct your life there.
If he did not hinder with your ability to direct your own decisions, he did not hinder with freewill. All he did was watch.
The robot would not have true freewill, it would just be making reference to my perfect design.
Are you saying that as long as someone can predict your next move, you have no ability to make your own decisions?
All of these don't exist if God was all knowing when he made the choices he did in the creation of Bob.
Bob build his own life, surrounded himself with the people he trusts and choose how he wants it to end. Freewill does not cease to exist just because someone can foretell the consequences of your actions
If I created a robot and I said it had 'free will' but told you exactly what it was going to do. I told you I had use used program A so that it would choose walk for 1.14 seconds then program B to choose to sit down for 4.56 seconds then I had programs for it to do things exactly as I wanted. I gave you a plan in detail for the 60 years of its existence. I also told you that I could have engineered it differently to do different things (for example, in year 40, I could have made it look at the sky for 5.65 seconds rther thn 5.55 seconds). How could you believe it had free will?
Are you saying that as long as someone can predict your next move, you have no ability to make your own decisions?
The robot didn't program itself.
Bob build his own life, surrounded himself with the people he trusts and choose how he wants it to end. Freewill does not cease to exist just because someone can foretell the consequences of your actions
People he trusts: ingredient 4113 = his mum ingredient 414123 = his dad ingredient whatever whatever for however else. What he wants: other ingredient. A choice to murder: the ingredient I've said.
Freewill does not cease to exist just because someone can foretell the consequences of your actions
Choosing to create an individual a certain way, rather than any other billions of other ways, means you choose to create an individual who is going to make predetermined decisions.
If I created a robot and I said it had 'free will' but told you exactly what it was going to do
Freewill does not work that way. Your creation must have the ability to choose how to respond to different situations based on current demands.
The robot didn't program itself.
No matter how easy it is to predict, if the robot can choose, you did not took its freedom away.
What he wants: other ingredient. A choice to murder: the ingredient I've said.
So? Freewill still does not cease just because someone knows the consequences of your actions.
Choosing to create an individual a certain way, rather than any other billions of other ways, means you choose to create an individual who is going to make predetermined decisions.
The ability to foretell a person's next move does not deny him the freedom of choosing his life.
If you grant it the ability to analyze the current situations and weight the advantages and disadvantages of all available options, then it already has freewill
Self-preservation is top priority but the concept of morality and serving the master is optional.
You'd really think my robot has free will if I tell you the exact thought process (to the point of it looking like a mathematical formula) it will go through to make the decision I tell you its going to make? What if I tell you that I chose an option at the point of its creation in which I knew it would have that thought process at that exact moment and come to that exact conclusion? If I had have chosen a slightly different formula for the robot then I could have changed it so that what it thought in that moment was different.
It is not that they can be predicted. It is that the creator chose the decisions.
No. The fact that someone knows where you will end up does not eliminate your freedom to choose where you wanted to be. Fate can coexist with freewill.
If the other player created me and chose the option that made me play that way in that particular game, then no, I don't think I'd have freewill.
You made your own moves hence freewill will exist as long as your ability to choose for yourself was not hindered. Allow me to say it again: doesn't mean that God can foretell the future, doesn't mean you cannot make your own life.
All that God can see is the ending of the tale but the adventure is yours to write.
Then you believe that there is a limit to God's powers - there are things he couldn't see. Most Christians seem to believe that God is all powerful, all knowing, and exists outside of time.
Well the I don't understand. How can you think I can act in a different way to that foreseen by God? Perhaps its the all-knowing part you have issues with?
"the adventure is still yours to make" seems like rhetoric to me.
So when I asked you "can I make a life that is different from the one that God foresaw when he decided to create me?" you meant to answer "no" rather than "yes". You concede that God knew what I would do at the moment he created me and still decided to create me in exactly that way. You must see that I can't follow any route other than that foreseen by God unless God is fallible or there is a limit to his foresight.
can I make a life that is different from the one that God foresaw when he decided to create me?
No. That wont be called fate by then. But it is possible to choose your own way how to get there. Just because someone knows how you will end does not mean you never choose to let it happen.
But it is possible to choose your own way how to get there. Just because someone knows how you will end does not mean you never choose to let it happen
So, to you God foresaw the end result but not the "way to get there" when he chose to create my future?
Yes. There are more ways than one on how you can get to your ending. Doesn't mean that someone knows your destination doesn't mean there is only one road to reach it.
Fate refers only to a point in life that you cannot avoid, it is not your whole life dictated. I wouldn't say that God has not foreseen the choices that you will make, but he definitely have no qualms about you using your own freewill.
But presumably when he created me he saw the actual choice I was going to make. He saw the choice and said "yep that looks good to me" and decided to create me.
The only way I have free will is if he didn't foresee every choice I was going to make at the drawn of time and commit to creating me to make those choices.
Apparently not. Freewill can work out as long as your choices are not intervened. Doesn't you cannot surprise someone, doesn't mean you did not made your own plan.
When God foresaw what I was going to do as a result of how he decides to create me... he didn't see 5 or 6 ways I could do it. He saw the truth. He saw the one way that I was going to live my entire live. You can't doubt the logic in what I'm saying. A creator creates someone 1 way and in creating that one way he knows that person is going to live in one way. "Free will" just doesn't make sense when it is merely following what God foresaw at the dawn of time.
Yes it does: If you can live your life without restrain, who cares if someone knows how you will end up?
The flaw in your logic is that you keep on insisting that the world revolves around an authoritarian rule, which is quickly disproven by the existence of the concept of good and evil. Stop trying to explain what you cannot understand. Gods business is to give you a start, you continue the rest. A predetermined ending maybe optional for a select few.
A predetermined ending maybe optional for a select few.
I've shown very clearly that the choices I would make were predetermined. I really don't get why you can't grasp my logic. I've never had this problem before and don't know how else to explain it.
The flaw in your logic is that you keep on insisting that the world revolves around an authoritarian rule, which is quickly disproven by the existence of the concept of good and evil.
No. Its clear that God knew chose some people to be good and some to be bad. I never mentioned authoritarian rule.
Gods business is to give you a start, you continue the rest.
God chose everything for me. With the concept of God being all-knowing and existing outside of time, the logic is undeniable. The only way you can doubt my logic is by saying that God is not all-knowing. This is an acceptable solution for some christians.
I've shown very clearly that the choices I would make were predetermined
And I've shown very clearly that the fact that someone knows how you will end up does not harm your ability to choose in anyway.
Its clear that God knew chose some people to be good and some to be bad. I never mentioned authoritarian rule.I never mentioned authoritarian rule.
To believe that God chooses everyone's fate without believing that life is not ruled by a dictator is a contradiction.
God chose everything for me.
Apparently not.
Doesn't mean that God is all-powerful and all-knowing doesn't he is obligated to choose for you everytime. Your idea of a predetermined fate is easily disproven by the fact that a Heaven and Hell exists and prophets are sent down to guide men and civilization itself.
And while at it; God limiting his intervention doesn't equate to abandonment.
And I've shown very clearly that the fact that someone knows how you will end up does not harm your ability to choose in anyway.
No. You have given a Dana style argument of a wordy way of saying "no, I disagree".
Please tell me which point is incorrect.
1) God is all powerful.
2) God is all knowing - he foresees every one of my actions.
4) There were an infinite number of ways he could chose me to be created.
5) When consider each way, he foresaw the exact life that I would lead if he chose that option.
6) He ruled out every other life I could lead and chose this one. He chose the life in which I would be typing this message now. He ruled out the life in which I wasn't typing this message now. He chose the life in which I would catch the bus rather than walk to work today. He ruled out the one in which I would walk etc etc.
7) I cannot act in a way other than what God foresaw. God foresaw only saw one way of me doing it - the way that would actually happen.
8) If you create something, knowing exactly what it is going to do, especially ruling out an infinite number of other programming in which he does something different, then the thing you create cannot have free will.
This seems completely logical. It logically follows that there is no free will. You haven't addressed my logic other than to say "no, there is free will".
Your idea of a predetermined fate is easily disproven by the fact that a Heaven and Hell exists and prophets are sent down to guide men and civilization itself.
Yes, well, I think if I was a Christian I would have to conclude that God didn't foresee what man would turn out like.
You misunderstood. Tell me which of my points that I have put that are incorrect. Your new points do not contradict my logic.
9) Is irrelevant. He doesnt have to intervene, he has already decided what I'm going to o.
10) Is irrelevant. He must have decided at the dawn of time for these prophets to come and chose the actions of people around this initial plan. Its just all a theatre to Him.
Tell me which of my points that I have put that are incorrect.
Not much. You just made it seem like life is ruled by a dictator.
9) That statement was disproven by the concept of original sin and fall from Eden. Doesn't mean that he knows what you will do doesn't mean you did not choose to do it.
10) Exactly why I said: "The fact that someone knows your next move does not harm your ability to choose in any way"
Freewill is the freedom to choose, not freedom from being predictable
Life is life. If life is a theater for God, we wont notice it. Thus, freewill and fate can coexist.
9) That statement was disproven by the concept of original sin and fall from Eden. Doesn't mean that he knows what you will do doesn't mean you did not choose to do it.
That's a point. God seems angry and surprised. Maybe the idea of him being all knowing is wrong. Maybe he didn't create them knoing they'd do that after all
Exactly why I said: "The fact that someone knows your next move does not harm your ability to choose in any way"
Yes yes, I can decide exactly the future I want as long as it is the same that God chose at the dawn of time and no one of my futures that God discarded. I.e. today I'm going to take a train because God ruled out the future in which I take a taxi.
Freewill is the freedom to choose, not freedom from being predictable
I have the freedom to do what God predicted. Nothing else.
That's a point. God seems angry and surprised. Maybe the idea of him being all knowing is wrong. Maybe he didn't create them knoing they'd do that after all
It's called justice. You can say that the old testament is ridiculous in terms of right and wrong but the point is, justice can only be administered after the act.
Yes yes, I can decide exactly the future I want as long as it is the same that God chose
Sure, I guess.
I have the freedom to do what God predicted. Nothing else.
You have the freedom to choose your life but you cannot escape his sight. That is all
How so? You still act out on your own accord. God just knows what you will already choose to do. You are still capable of making conscious decisions and weighing options and choosing the options that best suit you.
Not if god already knows what you are going to choose. If you choose the option that god didn't think you would choose then god was wrong, and isn't god supposed to never be wrong?
Not if god already knows what you are going to choose. If you choose the option that god didn't think you would choose then god was wrong, and isn't god supposed to never be wrong?
How so? Can one not make extremely educated inferences about what one will do in the future? In fact do you even under stand the practicallity of God's mind? Do you know of he truly knows everything?
It seems you make this argument from the stance that God directly knows everyone's actions. Can you demonstrate this for me?
I don't understand what acting on your own accord is if it has already been decided before hand.
It was never decided upon. You decide as of now what to do with your life. God already knows what you will choose from the immense number of possibilities open to you.
I agree. He saw one way of creating me, said that was good, and hit the confirm button. He chose my set of actions.
He didn't choose your options at all. He didn't choose anyone actions. Your actions and available choices are the consequence of past humans who had options and were given choices. In fact he didn't even create you. Your parents did. Their action ls affected you. God didn't do anything.
There is no weighing options. It is going through the protocol God set.
If that was the case everybody would be a Christian and be saved by the holy spirit, but that isn't the case thus I can dismiss that claim of yours. I can weigh my options to reply to this, I choose to reply, thus i made my own autonomous action. God didn't choose it for me at all, I did. Just because he knew what I would choose doesn't mean he choose for me.
God decided to make me when he made adam. He made adam in such a way as to eventually lead to me. He could have chosen to design adam in a way so it didn't lead to my creation (because he is all powerful). He has absolute power so can choose exactly what I'm going to be like.
Imagine you're God and you're creating me...
There an infinite number of things that God can program me but lets focus on one factor. There are three two on your magic computer of human creation. You press A and this alters a series of characteristics that leads me to 'choose' I'm going to have cereal on the 12th of April 2020. You foresee my future when you consider this option. You press B, and this changes my characteristics and see that I'm going to have toast on the 12th of April 2020. Being that you as God chose option A, and knew all the actions this would leads me to take, how can it be said that I had a free choice about what I will eat for breakfast?
God decided to make me when he made adam. He made adam in such a way as to eventually lead to me. He could have chosen to design adam in a way so it didn't lead to my creation (because he is all powerful). He has absolute power so can choose exactly what I'm going to be like.
Please prove this to be true. Demonstrate this for me.
There an infinite number of things that God can program me but lets focus on one factor.
God didn't program you to do anything. Your predisposition are biological hand downs from your ancestors. God only would have created the starting chain (Adam and Eve). Eve could have ignored Satan if she wanted to.
Please prove this to be true. Demonstrate this for me.
Because if you know everything about the future and have ultimate power to choose whatever future you want then you choose everything that happens in the future. Is my logic flawed?
Eve could have ignored Satan if she wanted to.
God didn't know that Eve was going to choose this? Imagine, he sat down thinking: "oh shit if I choose Eve with this make-up, she is going to not ignore Satan". God could have given her "free will" but made it so she would have ignored Satan.
Because if you know everything about the future and have ultimate power to choose whatever future you want then you choose everything that happens in the future.
"You choose everything that happens in the future."
How do you know that this is true? Can't a god simply make two humans and give them free will? Then leave? Can't a god give a human an option and know exactly what they will choose because he knows them better than they do? He can surely do so since he is omnipotent.
Is my logic flawed?
No, I'm just trying to learn and share information as of now. I just want to make you think on somethings. I'm not out to really disprove you.
God didn't know that Eve was going to choose this? Imagine, he sat down thinking: "oh shit if I choose Eve with this make-up, she is going to not ignore Satan". God could have given her "free will" but made it so she would have ignored Satan.
Couldn't God have just made her with free will and she decided to listen to Satan on her own terms? God could surely do so since he is omnipotent.
