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 Can morality exist if God isn't real? (7)

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icxc_nika(62) pic



Can morality exist if God isn't real?

If atheists happen to be right and there was no God ever then can there ever be moralit?

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In a subjective sense, yes. In an objective sense, not really.

1 point

God did not create moral values. Primitive man created moral values in order to be able to live to together in groups.

icxc_nika(62) Disputed
1 point

Let's go with that: that society and man created morality. Let's take the example of hitler. When hitler, in WW2, was killing all the Jews, he thought the Jews we like terrible people and the world would be better without them so he killed them thinking he was saving the world. He thought what he was doing was morally perfectly fine same goes for all of Germany. But was it actually ok? NO! That whole entire situation was about there society making morals and we know that situation was morally wrong. From that situation we know that society can't creat morals. Let's turn the page. We know now in this time that rape is not ok in fact it's one of the worst things someone could ever do but let's say in 20, 30 years society all of a sudden says it's ok no matter what but do we know that rape is wrong no matter what? Yes! We don't creat morals, we follow the morals that were created by our Lord. God created those morals and his word is good. No matter if in 20 years if rape becomes ok, God has always said it was wrong and will continue to say that. That how we know morals is because of him. He created morals.

1 point

Let's go with that: that society and man created morality. Let's take the example of hitler. When hitler, in WW2, was killing all the Jews, he thought the Jews we like terrible people and the world would be better without them so he killed them thinking he was saving the world. He thought what he was doing was morally perfectly fine same goes for all of Germany. But was it actually ok? NO!

First, much of Germany, including the German army, did not actually know about the Final Solution.

Second, you don't think it was okay, and I don't, but that doesn't prove objective morality.

That whole entire situation was about there society making morals and we know that situation was morally wrong.

Both sides of the issue was about society making morals. One side viewed it as morally okay (well, part of one side), and one side viewed it as morally wrong.

From that situation we know that society can't creat morals.

That situation does the exact opposite: It proves that societies can create morals, and that said morals often clash.

Let's turn the page. We know now in this time that rape is not ok in fact it's one of the worst things someone could ever do but let's say in 20, 30 years society all of a sudden says it's ok no matter what but do we know that rape is wrong no matter what? Yes!

This is a very modern perspective. Quite a few forms of rape, such as marital rape, were (and in some places still are) considered morally acceptable.

We don't creat morals, we follow the morals that were created by our Lord.

Many people, such as myself, would argue that is simply another set of morals that we created, but attributed divinity to.

God created those morals and his word is good. No matter if in 20 years if rape becomes ok, God has always said it was wrong and will continue to say that. That how we know morals is because of him. He created morals.

You might want to look at the discussion of Slavery in the Bible to see the issue in this line of reasoning.

J-Roc77(70) Clarified
1 point

Lets go with that: that god creates morality. Lets take an example, slavery in the bible. He thought what he was doing was morally perfectly fine same goes for all of Israelites. But was it actually ok? That whole entire situation was about there god making morals and we know that situation was morally wrong. From that situation we know that god can't creat morals.

I am copy pasting your argument and just switching out society with a god to show you how your argument isn't strong. It is taking one example and using it to try to represent the whole. You need to look at a larger more representative sample to come to any firm conclusion. There are many examples of gods doing things that humans would find immoral if committed by a human. For instance mass genocide rape in the bible.

Here is a few about killing women and children.

Thou shalt surely smite the inhabitants of that city with the edge of the sword, destroying it utterly, and all that is therein, and the cattle thereof, with the edge of the sword. Deuteronomy 13:15

But of the cities of these people, which the LORD thy God doth give thee for an inheritance, thou shalt save alive nothing that breatheth. Deuteronomy 20:16-17

And they utterly destroyed all that was in the city, both man and woman, young and old, and ox, and sheep, and ass, with the edge of the sword. Joshua 6:21

So smote all the country ... he left none remaining, but utterly destroyed all that breathed, as the LORD God of Israel commanded. Joshua 10:40

Thus saith the LORD of hosts ... go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass. 1 Samuel 15:2-3

There are plenty of morals that people hold in common although they worship different gods or no gods. In general, don't kill, steal, rape and so on are all pretty much universally accepted, all cultures have forms of these base rules. If morality only came from a god then this wouldn't be possible, how else would people all come to similar conclusions if the only path to morality is from a certain god? In fact there is plenty of evidence that morals predate many religions.

Mesopotamia : 1790 BCE : Hammurabi's Code, outlaws murder, theft and rape.

Hittite Empire : 1650 BCE : The Code of Nesilim, outlawed murder, assault, and had set punishments for rape.

These moral precepts predate Christianity and seem to fly in the face of some of the old testament and reflect more of what we see today as moral in our society. It is clear that morals in religions do not spring forth from a divine source, they are collections of what was moral at the time and place of those writings. That is why slavery in the bible is condoned as well as treating women as chattle but elsewhere in the world even at an earlier time than the old testament those acts were found despicable.

1 point

Human animals have been around for millions of years, well before we invented God/Deities, etc etc, so to be able to exist for so long it is reasonable to presume that cultural moral and ethical behaviour developed a long time before we created religion.

1 point

Yes, but in a less absolute extent. With no eternity involved, morality becomes relatively less important.

daver(1771) Clarified
1 point

Yes there is that relief when you realize that there is no eternal damnation waiting at the end, but the importance of moral values in the first place remains unchanged. IMHO

Troy8(2431) Clarified
1 point

Well I mean sure, but obviously the sheer decrease in the magnitude of punishment would obviously weaken morality.

Whether god does or does not exist seems irrelevant to our moral considerations. Morality is a fully human convention.