Christianity is more logical then Atheism
Side Score: 57
Side Score: 69
By believing in God and following you are already being as logical as you can be.
Although there are plenty of contentions to that statement, let's be reminded that this question was about Christianity, not theism in general. So, along with God we also have-
1. All people are born in sin, due to the actions of Adam and Eve. There are 2 reasons for this which are either coexistent or interchangeable.
A) They disobeyed God. Is it logical to assume that all of their progeny down throughout the generations will do so? Should the punishments like physical death, getting kicked out of paradise and hell and whatnot be automatically applied to all before they even have a chance to sin?
B) They ate from the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil. This apparently created a permanent change in the species, that guarantees sin. First, this implies that knowledge is a bad thing. Second this implies that knowledge of something will make you do that something, which is demonstrably wrong (everyone is aware that murder is possible and know of multiple ways to kill, yet not everyone kills people). Third, this completely ignores the "Knowledge of Good" aspect, placing total emphasis on evil.
2. For thousands of years, there was no way around this, but eventually God created a "loophole" of sorts in the form a Jesus Christ. Why did he wait so long, damning untold people to hell after physical death? Did he change his mind, and if so: how can a perfect entity change its mind anyway?
A) Jesus' sacrifice is said to atone for humanity, pay the toll in to Heaven so to speak for the rest of us. This essentially amounts to God creating an unnecessarily elaborate scenario to establish new rules to the equation. What is the good of sacrificing yourself/your son if a) you are not the one committing the crime in the first place, b) it won't actually erase the debt of sin from future generations in the first place?
B) Jesus was aware that he was God, and even if not, that he would not actually die, and would rise to walk the Earth again. That isn't much of a sacrifice. It would be a lot more compelling if he knew he would be at his literal end, both physically and spiritually. THAT would be a legitimate sacrifice. As written, it just a show.
3. The real emphasis is basically not so much on being the best person you can be, but on simply believing in God and in Jesus as your savior, and apologizing before you die. This puts us in a scenario where a horrible murderer can enter heaven as long as he believes, but a good, generous person who never intentionally harmed a soul would go to hell if he does not believe. What good does this do for humanity? Logic?
Further, as far as unprovable and untestable premises go, Christianity does not stop at God. There is also Heaven, Hell, Angels, Satan, souls and myriad other concepts that have no more support than God or the divinity of Jesus. Each requires one extra heap of faith and faith is not logical by nature.
I think both sides are illogical to an extent but it stands to reason that the universe didn't happen by pure chance, random explosions, and one microscopic piece of matter. There are natural laws we are all beholden to and really the very idea that logic exists has to do with intelligent thought. At a sub-atomic level people can actually define what they see through a microscope simply by altering their perception of it. There is definitely a rational driving force behind all of creation because if there wasn't all would be pure chaos. Anything science fails to explain it simply ignores or tries to discredit and really I don't see any difference between "atheistic science" and "Byzantine Catholicism" since they both ignore facts whenever convenient to push their agenda.
Logic is formed by observing nature. Seeing the way things work, and to logically assume they will continually work that way or change according to a pattern that was also observed.
Logically speaking, we can no longer observe any of the odd facts Christians believes. However atheists don't have to believe and are only subject to observation.
The universe had a beginning. To counter this claim. Many unbelievers make the argument that the universe as we know it has always existed and is infinite. These arguments work in theory, not in real life. It is the same reason there is a difference between pure math and applied math. If the universe had no beginning, then the number of events to reach the present point would be infinite as well. It would be like counting to zero from negative infinity. Since infinity is only an idea and one cannot actually have an infinity or negative infinity, then the present moment could never had arrived if the universe had no beginning. Since the present is real, it must have a finite past and therefore there was a beginning.
In the above we proved the universe had a beginning. Why is this so important? Since time, matter, and space did not exist earlier than the beginning of the universe, the cause of the universe had to be timeless, space-less, and immaterial. This cause cannot be physical or subject to scientific law since all other cause include either time, matter, or space. The cause also had to bring the universe into existence without changing to do so, making the case for a supernaturally caused beginning very strong.
Let me stop you right here.
"Many unbelievers make the argument that the universe as we know it has always existed and is infinite."
Note, this is many, and this is not all. Note this is also a theory, not a recognized statement that would be defended as fact.
This is where Christianity and atheism differ. Christianity can not be more logical than anything that asserts with proof, or doesn't assert as fact, when Christianity will assert without proof, as if it were fact.
I'd also like to note that this is merely one instance, that if it were true, would be recognizing atheism as less logical than Christianity. Other instances that can be found in the bible, that are contradicted by the way the world actually works, are way more numerous, and in favor of atheism being more logical than Christianity.
Many unbelievers make the argument that the universe as we know it has always existed and is infinite. how many?
...This cause cannot be physical or subject to scientific law since all other cause include either time, matter, or space t ...argument for magic ? By making impossible claim, interesting :D
Many unbelievers make the argument that the universe as we know it has always existed and is infinite.
That has not been a common argument amongst non-believers since wide acceptance of Big Bang theory emerged. Its only a specific aspect of the universe, energy, that is cited as being eternal. Since matter is identified as being a format of energy, there are basically two components to the universe: energy and the various forces and laws that refine and shape energy into its various wavelengths, particles and ultimately matter. The energy in its pure form is effectively eternal in that it cannot be created or destroyed, and as such was present in the singularity that "preceded" the big bang. The defining factors, namely forces, dimensions and time, came about AFTER the Big Bang. Those factors mold "the universe as we know it", so no, we don't claim this universe is eternal, simply that the energy that makes it up is. The singularity could be argued to be a different form of universe, as well as there could be an infinite series of expansions and contractions, an infinite series of Universes, each of which could have their own set of forces and dimensions, thus potentially creating infinite variations on the concept of Universe. But no one permeation of Universe is likely to be "eternal".
After this you make a variety of statements I can more or less agree on, but then there is this...
The cause also had to bring the universe into existence without changing to do so
You haven't really explained why this is so, basically just stated it as fact. So...support this assertion.
You believe it to be impossible for the universe to have always existed, but possible for God to have always existed?
Why is this so important? Since time, matter, and space did not exist earlier than the beginning of the universe, the cause of the universe had to be timeless, space-less, and immaterial.
Space is nothing without something. Also, time does not exist. Never has, never will. As we know, the Earth rotates around the sun. A circle has neither a starting point, nor an ending point. We do have light and darkness, but darkness is nothing without light, just as light is nothing without darkness. The sun and the moon (which is not darkness, it's just less bright) rotate around the Earth, having neither a start nor a finish.
We picture time in a straight line, just constantly increasing... But how can that be if what gives us our entire notion of time, is something that rotates around us? Do the hands on a clock start at 12:00... Or do they merely pass it and keep going?
The cause also had to bring the universe into existence without changing to do so, making the case for a supernaturally caused beginning very strong.
This may surprise you, but I actually do agree that we had to have a supernatural beginning, but not as it is told in the Christian tradition.
Trumpet Guy, excellent post! One of the best ever posted here. Just one thing I would like to add though. If anyone ever questions you about the universe not having an absolute beginning, just bring up the BVG theorem. It is as close a certainty to absolute proof as you can get.
Only a delusional, uneducated, militant atheist will dispute the BVG theorem. A rational atheist who can understand science will accept it. Anyone that tells you the BVG is wrong, please ignore them. It isn't worth your time to argue with a fool.