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I don't have to justify my feelings to you, prove or disprove the existence, or lfack of existence, of them.
You can believe what you want.
I know that I hate AveSatanas and he is the epitome of a wannabe Satanist why people despise Satanism (he's an atheist who wants to worship something).
Actually good sir, if you claim Satan exists you do have to back that up. Burden of Proof and all.
And I dont have to justify my philosophy to YOU. I dont wanna be the kind of satanist you are because i dont worship stupid blatantly fake entities from ancient mythology. I bet you dont even know the pagan history of Satan. You think he originated in the bible? HAH.
I dont want to worship anything. Its called self identification. Why do people call themselves Republicans and Democrats? Or pro-lifers and pro-choicers? Because they happen to identify with that ideology that already exists. I already believed what i did before finding satanism. Then when i did i thought, "Hey this is already what i think, so i can identify with this", so i did. My position on Satanism and religion is more rational and justifiable than yours. Just because you dont like that doesnt mean im wrong, or that you can go around making false accusations about me.
Because i can take supernatural beliefs and rationalize them. And i can also take the non-religious stuff out of the belief set and use them.
For example, i dont need to worship satan to agree that knowledge and truth are important.
And i dont have to worship him to agree that i shouldnt waste my love on people who dont deserve it.
I turn supernatural doctrine into a non-religious philosophy or code that fits me. These things came FROM theistic satanism and are now atheistic principles, therfore i am an atheistic satanist. make sense?
Actually, you thwarted nothing. and i love how you didnt even go near the topic of Satans origin because you know nothing of it.
Satan was an angel named Lucifer... Not much further to go into really.
You are an atheist with no morals, don't pretend you're a Satanist (though there are many like you, including LaVey, and religion spreads by sheep mentality of peopel like you so I see why you fell into this trap).
1) nope it's much more complicated than that branching all the way back to Sanskrit.
2) I absolutely have morals. That was a completely false and blatantly ignorant statement.
3) A. I don't follow Laveyan satanism 100%. I took away from it what I thought was good and I took from theistic satanism what I thought was good. I chose my own philosophy. That's called free thought.
B. it's not a Religion. Religion by definition is a belief in a deity. All I have is a self-invented moral code that has all secular values combined with my lack of belief in a god. By your logic, being a republican or democrat, ect is being a religion. I just happened to have taken my morals FROM a religion. Just as one can take lessons from the bible without believing in god or Jesus.
C. Your last statement about religion applies directly to you as you are a theist. So baaaa to you sheep.
Each and every Satanist reaches it differently and practises it their own unique way,t at's the non sheepishness you arrogant cunt you piece of shit asshole I will fucking watch you burning in hell one day and think, hahaha, Satan isn't burning me because I was with him all the way, you cowered out to the atheists.
And i have reached MY understanding and "beliefs" (they arent supernatural) in MY own unique way. I call my own path atheistic satanism. I wouldnt call it Laveyan because i dont practice what they do and i disagree with some of their philosophies. BUT i DO agree with others, so i took those and left the rest. I did the same with theistic. I patched together my own frankenstein philosophy that is personal to me. That is my unique way. How can i be a sheep to something i made myself?
Also, you warship the Satan of the bible. I know there is a rather large Satanist population that you identify as. You really arent that unique the way i understand you but i wont claim you are what you are becasue i dont know you (unlike how you label me and tell me what i do and dont believe).
Also, if Satan's goal is to turn people from god, why would he punish me for doing what he wants? It makes no sense to punish me, itd be for no reason. Hypothetically of course because again, i dont believe in him.
I will also add that in the spiritual theistic satanism i researched (NOT what you believe, spiritual satanists believe there is ONLY Satan and that he is outside christianity and has no part in it) says that Satan doesnt punish people. He just reincarnates you if you dont find the path to him. If you DO find his message in any way (whether you believe in him or not) you get to go to hell with him because you have succeeded. He doesnt care if people believe in him or not, only that people find his message.
So in both these forms of theistic satanism if they are true, it is highly unlikely that i will be punished.
God may not exist but there is a possibility he does exist so you should believe in him. Three things might happen depending on your faith or lack of it:
1. God exists and you do believe.
You go to heaven having believed in him. +1 point!
2. God exists and you don't believe in him.
You go to hell. -1 point!
3. God doesn't exist and you don't believe in him.
When you die nothing happens. You just rot. 0 points!
So better that you believe in God and have a chance of going to heaven than risk going to hell with no benefit even if it turns out he doesn't actually exist. You have nothing to gain by not believing - so believe!
If I told you that you must believe in unicorns (and they can read peoples minds) or else an army of them will take over the world and torture you, would you believe in unicorns, if you do believe you will be given a unicorn horn that will sell for enough money to satisfy you for the rest of your life? I mean after all if you don't believe and it was all a bluff then no sweat right? but if you don't believe and they take over - 1 points, if you do believe and you get that horn + 1 points.
Yet you won't take any of this seriously because it's ridiculous to buy into. If the claim itself is to incredible so will the threat that is contained with in it.
Besides if a god did exist and burned people for all of eternity simply because they weren't convinced of his/hers existence that is a god I would not want to follow even if he/she did exist. It would go against my sense of justice to do so, something in me that is high up on the list of what I value in myself.
I think he was just being funny, honestly I thought what he said was pretty funny. It is like a cheat code isn't it? I mean what's the point in the religion telling you to be good if it then tells you, you can do whatever the hell you want as long as you ask for forgiveness. Of course if a god did exist he/she'd know if you were truly sorry, but a lot of people see this as "you can screw up as much as you want and it will all be good".
THE ONLY TRUE FORGIVER, WHO ACCEPTS ALL SINNERS, ALL FILTHY IMMORAL BASTARD SOULS INTO ITS KINGDOM IS... Oh you THINK IT IS THAT THING NAMED GOD?! THE ONE WHO ETERNALLY PUNISHES YOU FOR NOT LICKING ITS ARSE AND FUELING ITS EGO IN YOUR LIFE?! NO!
ONLY THE DEVIL ACCEPTS ANY AN ALL SINNERS WITH FULL OPEN ARMS OF FORGIVENESS AND THEN ENGAGES IN NON-PHYSICAL KINKY SHIT!
You're a lot closer to being a Christian than I am. I don't believe anything it says in the bible. I wish I did though. Whereas you on the other had seem to follow a religion sprouted entirely from a few passages in the bible. You're like a groupie of Christianity.
I don't think most Christians believe that.Most Christians dont believe in that its a sin to mix to different types of fabrics in their clothes. I imagine you might be alright. I guess you could ask your Priest or whoever it is that helps you study the bible.
What happens if you are asking the wrong God for forgiveness? If it isn't the God you believe in, and that God is as jealous as Yahweh, then you would go to hell for believing in the wrong God. There is an infinite possible Gods and this is why Pascals wager doesn't work because which one is the one you should believe in?
Others have already addressed the Pascal's Wager part of your argument, so I'm going to address the other parts. First and foremost, belief is not a choice. If you disagree, I want you to choose to believe in invisible fairies, not just say you believe in them but really truly believe they exist without a doubt in your mind. Do you believe in fairies now? I'm willing to bet that the answer is no. Just like you can't choose to believe in fairies because you think they are fictional, atheists can't choose to believe in god because we think he is fictional.
Scott Clifton does an excellent job of addressing the question "What if I'm wrong" in this video. He describes exactly how I and many other atheists feel.
Thank you thats interest. I have now watched the video.
I think a Christian would say that there is a certain amount of self-sacrifice involved in worshipping God. That okay you might not be fully convinced, this isn't your choice, but despite this you can choose to believe and to live your life as a Christian. So you could, ignoring for a moment the other argument to do with Pascal's Wager, do the things you need to get into heaven having convinced yourself that, despite your doubts God does exist. Most atheists would admit that there is at least a some chance, no matter how remote, that the Christian God does exist and you can decide to focus on that possibility.
you can choose to believe and to live your life as a Christian
I already explained that belief is not something we can choose. Do you disagree with the argument I presented? If so, please present a counter-argument.
So you could, ignoring for a moment the other argument to do with Pascal's Wager, do the things you need to get into heaven having convinced yourself that, despite your doubts God does exist.
I don't see any reason to ignore the arguments against Pascal's Wager. It's a very important argument. Think about it this way; If you were god who would you be more upset with?
1. Someone who worshipped another god.
2. Someone who didn't worship any gods because they couldn't figure out which one was real, if any, but they still choose to live a good life?
The god described in the Bible tells his followers to go on massive killing sprees when people worship other gods (Deuteronomy 13:12-16). So if there is a god out there and he is anything like the god described in the Bible, I think I would be better off not worshipping any gods than worshipping the wrong one.
Most atheists would admit that there is at least a some chance, no matter how remote, that the Christian God does exist and you can decide to focus on that possibility.
or we could choose to focus on the possibly of any of the other thousands of gods throughout history. However, since there is no clear evidence for any of them it's best to just say, I don't know if a god exists and until I see some credible evidence that one does I will assume that they don't exist.
If god really exists, I don't see any reason why he wouldn't just come down and say hi to me and clear up any questions and concerns I have. That's what loving parents do, they spend time with their children and teach them one-on-one. They don't hide from their kids and then punish them for being confused.
Firstly, I was only ignoring Pascal's Wager so that I could deal with your point in its isolation. I have already conceded that point.
"I already explained that belief is not something we can choose. Do you disagree with the argument I presented? If so, please present a counter-argument."
Well that is what I was doing. You can't choose whether you have doubt about something or not but you can choose whether you believe and follow the doctrine of that religion. Sometime parents have doubts about whether ther children love them, for example, by and large those parents choose to believe that their children do love them. Maybe this is what 'benefit of the doubt' means.
When they guy in the video approaches the gates of heavens and says "I didn't find anything in the arguments presented before me to be convincing about your existence". God would surely say that there were Christians that also had had doubts but still they decided to attend church and chose to believe.
The only time you can't choose to believe something is when the doubt is so overwealming that you decide it is impossible. This is not often the case for athiests.
I remember watching an interview with the Chief Rabbi for the UK. He admitted that he had doubts about whether there was a good or not but that there was so much benefit to being a Jew that it is worth believing. This is a choice.
You can't choose whether you have doubt about something or not but you can choose whether you believe and follow the doctrine of that religion.
Doubt is the counterpart to belief, they are like two sides of the same coin. If you "can't choose whether you have doubt", then you can't choose whether you believe. The reason you don't believe something is because you doubt it.
When they guy in the video approaches the gates of heavens and says "I didn't find anything in the arguments presented before me to be convincing about your existence". God would surely say that there were Christians that also had had doubts but still they decided to attend church and chose to believe.
I would respond to god, "why didn't you just make it 100% clear to everyone that you exist and what you expect from us? Why would you play hide-and-seek when billions of lives are at stake?"
The only time you can't choose to believe something is when the doubt is so overwealming that you decide it is impossible. This is not often the case for athiests.
The amount of doubt I have for the Christian god is overwhelming. I have no doubt in my mind that Christianity is a man-made religion. I'm open to the possibility that there may be another god out there, but I think it's very unlikely. If there is a god, I don't think there is any possibility that he/she is omnipotent, omnibenevolent, and omnipresent because of all the suffering in the world. Those 3 characteristics combined are incompatible with suffering.
I remember watching an interview with the Chief Rabbi for the UK. He admitted that he had doubts about whether there was a god or not but that there was so much benefit to being a Jew that it is worth believing. This is a choice.
There is a different between believing something is true and doing something because you think it's beneficial. For example, I think that many of the teachings of Jesus are good rules to follow, such as "love thy neighbor", but that doesn't mean I can choose to believe that Jesus was divine. The belief in that scenario would be belief that loving your neighbor is beneficial to society. Let's go back to the fairy scenario I mentioned earlier. If I told you that the fairies say that we should treat everyone with love and respect, and if we do we will be rewarded with anything our heart desires, do you think you could choose to believe in fairies, even though deep down you don't think they are real? You may choose to follow their teachings of love and respect because you believe they are beneficial to society, but I don't think you can choose to believe the fairies themselves are real.
"Doubt is the counterpart to belief, they are like two sides of the same coin. If you "can't choose whether you have doubt", then you can't choose whether you believe. The reason you don't believe something is because you doubt it."
I think we have different definitions of believe. Oxford dictionary defines it as:
"an acceptance that something exists or is true, especially one without proof".
You can choose whether to accept something exists. This is more difficult when there is doubt but just because there is degree of doubt doesn't mean it is mentally impossible for you to accept it as a truth.
"I would respond to god, "why didn't you just make it 100% clear to everyone that you exist and what you expect from us? Why would you play hide-and-seek when billions of lives are at stake?"
Well that would be to argue against why God operates the way he does. But still standes that saying that you weren't convinced by the argued, when others were, would be no answer for why you didn't follow Gods law I think.
I think we have different definitions of believe. Oxford dictionary defines it as: "an acceptance that something exists or is true, especially one without proof".
The key word in that definition is "acceptance". The Oxford dictionary defines acceptance as, "agreement with or belief in an idea, opinion, or explanation." Do you agree that Justin Beiber is the best musician in history? I'm pretty sure you would say no. So now I want you to CHOOSE to agree that he is the best musician in history. Now you may be able to say that you agree, but deep down you know he's not the best musician and history, so you don't really agree. That's the point I'm trying to make. If you still disagree with me, I want you to CHOOSE to believe I am right ;)
Well that would be to argue against why God operates the way he does.
I have no problem arguing with him. If he truly cared he would address my concerns and help me understand.
But still stands that saying that you weren't convinced by the argued, when others were, would be no answer for why you didn't follow Gods law I think.
Okay, let's take a second look at the argument you made. You said,
When they guy in the video approaches the gates of heavens and says "I didn't find anything in the arguments presented before me to be convincing about your existence". God would surely say that there were Christians that also had had doubts but still they decided to attend church and chose to believe.
I could say the same thing about nearly anything. For example, one day alien overlords could come to earth and ask you why you didn't believe in them. If you tell them, "I didn't find anything in the arguments presented before me to be convincing about your existence". The alien overlords would surely say that there were other people that also had had doubts but still they decided to go to UFO conventions and chose to believe. Since you didn't believe in us we are going to torture you for eternity.
So, given that argument are you going to start believing in alien overlords?
despite your doubts God does exist. Most atheists would admit that there is at least a some chance, no matter how remote, that the Christian God does exist and you can decide to focus on that possibility.
I know previous to this you said you are ignoring Pascal's Wager for a minute, but this leads right back to it. Why do you decide to only focus on the possibility that the Christian god exists and believe in that one? Why not the others? What stops you from believing in the others as well?
Well, I know God doesn't exist, I don't just 'believe'. Bu I know you're gonna be stubborn, hence why you made this debate. Even if someone did manage to convince you, I highly doubt you would have the bollocks to say so. So, there you go friend. Actually, I shall do something similar, to see how you do!
Good news then. No I am not agnostic in any way. I do not doubt what I know, because I know it as a fact! What I do not know I intend to find out with research and intuition.
Your point being? The fact is you lead your life by believing one thing and by thinking your beliefs are different to someone else's with no proof. That is stupid!
Ok, Gnostic atheist you should probably explain to me, I thought first time around you just misspelled Agnostic, but obviously not. If it means Atheist who goes against the foundations of religion, then that's me :) Not those sour puss " Oh, well I don't believe in God, but I'm not against religion, I mean I guess I could be agnostic..."
I am agnostic because I accept satan may not exist.
I am Satanist because no other set of morals than that of Satan make sense (no Satan is not an amoral bastard as many make him out to be, you just have to understand Anarchist morality before you understand Satanism).
So you're more an Anarchist than a Satanist? You believe more in the "other side" of things/a counter part", and so you choose that. And so you don't necessarily believe in the "bible fallen angel/Satan" of things, you believe in the counter part of something?
As far as agnosticism goes, you accept Satan may not exist, just as God may not exist, and so you believe you don't know for sure, yet you choose to believe in Satanism?
So in the end, you're not agnostic, because you do believe in something, you just don't know what.
What the fuck Prodigee. I presented those are questions, obviously you didn't catch it EVEN though I originally asked you a question on why you believe what you believe and what.
Prodigee you're seriously fucked up in the head.
I was being honest, with honest questions and you STILL tend to tell people to shut up.... you're fucking nuts. and not in a good way.
Yes tis clear to me now, the simple A missing. Well I'm tired, I have a piano exam tomorrow, it's late, and any other excuses you want to come up with...
God IS real and he CAN control what happens but sometimes bad things happen so that we can learn from them as all of us are guilty of sinning and just because you have problems, that doesn't mean that God doesn't love you as his children.
People like to see science fiction and fantasy movies rather than facing the Reality .
How much money do film makers and novel writers make each year !? Because people like to pay some money to get themselves away from the reality. Emotional enjoyment !
That's why religion is embraced by population......year after year !
Original Religious debate? What planet are you from? Nothing is Original in how people discuss religion....it's all the same cup of tea, the shame shabang shabang. I don't get your point.
Sure people post random shit on here all of the time, however, what's the problem with a person saying "Convince me Christian God does exist!" You seem to have a problem with particular debates, lest don't consider something to be "original". Okay high and mighty, you come up with an ORIGINAL topic pertaining to religion. Religion has been around since the beginning of our species, whether in the smallest form or biggest form, curiosity has always been there.
Go cry somewhere else then if you don't want to debate about religion...oh im sorry, ORIGINAL religious debate... LOL you're laughable.
1. You are not the center of the universe. I mean technicaly you are but that's besides the point.
2. Although there is no evidence proving him, there is not enough evidence to disprove him either. So if you're so important prove without a shadow of a doubt that he doesn't exist.
3. The arrogance in your statement "prove to me he does exist." with no provocation, is a blatant, unwarranted attack on Christianity. What is to you who, chooses not to believe, what some choose to believe.
4. How can you hate a being you don't believe exists? Being mostly atheist myself, I don't hate God. I feel that with no evidence proving him, he doesn't affect me. Thus, no reason to resent.
Some people born in rich family and enjoy from plenty of resources ,some don't....
Many people couldn't afford college education,let alone P.hd education!
The unequal distribution of mony is a human principle - not God's principle. For the most part God equally distributes the necessary resources of food and water across the planet and no matter where you go there is almost always a human civilization. Do you know why, because God has made the resources necessary for survival and man has exploited it so the rich get richer and the poor get poorer. How is this God's fault?
another thing is that the human race does not like the idea of equality- that's why the rich refused to be taxed in America because they dont want to give up there extravagant lifestyle for their fellow brother.
Unbalanced social level and status !
Many people couldn't find any job to sustain his or her living...
Man made the idea of social status and if God were to overthrow this man made idea the society would fall into shambles. People don't like the idea of equality and if God decided to force the idea of equality upon us, we would hate him still. Jobs always have been readily available to man too. And by jobs i mean the kind that allows us to eat. But society can and has restricted people from using land for framing and living on.
If God exists,He must have abandoned us !
Or we abandoned him first and want nothing to do with him on a whole and God cant do anything to change the world unless we jump on that wagon with him- unless you want him to eliminate free will.
