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Creationism vs. Evolutionism
The argument is whether humans evolved because there was a Supreme Being (God) who made man in His own image or man emerged from apes.
Creationism
Side Score: 114
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Evolutionism
Side Score: 300
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http://books.google.com/ Side: creationism
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Yes, i love this. God the supreme being created everything both living and non living. In the Bible, Genesis 1. We were made to understand how the history of creation goes. Is better we read the Bible and get the fact than to go all about speaking fallacies. Side: Creationism
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God the supreme being created everything both living and non living. You have no evidence for such an assertion. In the Bible, Genesis 1. The bible is not scientific evidence any more than spider man comics are proof of spider man. We were made to understand how the history of creation goes We were made to understand the story of Genesis? No we weren't. Is better we read the Bible and get the fact than to go all about speaking fallacies. You have no way of knowing that the bible contains only facts. In fact, there are numerous inconsistencies, falsehoods, and contradictions in the bible. No one is speaking fallacies here. You are the one relying on a book 2000 years old to have all the answers you will ever need. Side: Evolutionism
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I want to tell you that all these we are saying is our believe. Yes, i mean our faith, we just know we were being giving birth to and someone also gave birth to our own parents. The question is who are the first parents. If you dispute the fact of the Bible. Side: Creationism
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The question is who are the first parents. If you dispute the fact of the Bible. The bible is not a fact, first of all. The bible might contain a few facts, but that is not because it is "divine" by nature. Who are the first parents? That would depend on what you mean by parents. Are you talking about the first homo sapien parents? Or are you talking about the first parents in regards to life on earth? For the first question, I do not know. But I don't need to know, for that question is not really important for it does not add validity to the bible if I cannot answer that question. The answer to the second question would be whichever species developed the means for sexual reproduction. Side: Evolutionism
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It seems you know the and you just trying to be blunt. You said the Bible is not a fact, you later now said it might contain a few. Why are you not stable. Anyway even though am talking about the homo parents or the parents regarding to life on earth, because that you fail to answer the question all because you don't know it. This is another question for you. Can evolution have sexual reproduction? Side: Creationism
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It seems you know the and you just trying to be blunt. You think I'm trying to be blunt? I'm not sure what you mean. Blunt about what? I realize you are not a native english speaker, it is difficult to understand what you are typing. You said the Bible is not a fact, you later now said it might contain a few. Why are you not stable. You said this: If you dispute the fact of the Bible. You spoke of the bible as if everything in the bible were a fact. I said no, the bible itself is not a fact. It might contain a few facts. But that does not mean that the bible itself is a fact, or that everything in the bible is true. I am being perfectly consistent here. Anyway even though am talking about the homo parents or the parents regarding to life on earth, because that you fail to answer the question all because you don't know it. It's difficult to understand what you wrote. Which one are you talking about? Homo sapien parents? Or parents to the first organism capable of sexual reproduction? Either way I don't know who was the first parents. But what you do not realize is that it doesn't matter who the first parents were. Evolution is still true even in the absence of an answer for your question. This is another question for you. Can evolution have sexual reproduction? Seeing as how humans are products of evolution, obviously yes. Many animals and other organisms are capable of different types of reproduction, including sexual. Side: Evolutionism
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Fact? 1. Knowledge or information based on real occurrences: an account based on fact; 2. a. Something demonstrated to exist or known to have existed: Genetic engineering is now a fact. That Chaucer was a real person is an undisputed fact. b. A real occurrence; an event: c. Something believed to be true or real: Fact? Side: Evolutionism
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"God made man in his own image" "this only have I found, that God hath made man upright; but they have sought out many inventions" - upright, not a monkey running along with his fists on the ground, the man is UPRIGHT, his two legs on the ground, walking with his hands at his sides. "Inventions" - well, I have to say that evolution certainly fits into that category. Side: creationism
""this only have I found, that God hath made man upright; but they have sought out many inventions" - upright, not a monkey running along with his fists on the ground, the man is UPRIGHT, his two legs on the ground, walking with his hands at his sides." Since the very heart of the concept is that organisms transform from one form to another, this is perfectly in keeping with evolution. ""Inventions" - well, I have to say that evolution certainly fits into that category." Evolution is, like any other concept in investigative science, an observation (actually a vast family of observations), not an invention. Side: evolutionism
"Since the very heart of the concept is that organisms transform from one form to another, this is perfectly in keeping with evolution" Wrong. God made man upright and apes/monkeys may stand upright but do not walk upright, they tend to run/walk on all fours with their hands fisted. Why would God make man and tell us that He made man upright then somehow the men evolve into apes then back to men? It makes no sense and, lets face it, that didn't happen. Why also would Moses say that God made "man" if it was an ape that God made? Furthermore, Eve spoke to the serpent and spoke words to Adam that Moses tells us she said, wouldn't an ape be unable to speak our language? Thus, you are wrong in saying that it is "perfectly in keeping with evolution". Finally, we are told that God made man in His image; I very much doubt - and I speak for the majority of the thousands of Christians that there are on this planet - God is a big hairy ape that walks on all fours. "Evolution is, like any other concept in investigative science, an observation (actually a vast family of observations), not an invention." No offence, but its an invention, just like we are told. And you my friend have fallen for the words of fools. Side: creationism
Okay, I have a better idea where you're coming from. But that doesn't make your statement valid. "Why would God make man and tell us that He made man upright then somehow the men evolve into apes then back to men? It makes no sense and, lets face it, that didn't happen." You are right, that didn't happen. I never claimed that it did, and no evolutionist that I have ever heard of has made such a claim. "Why also would Moses say that God made "man" if it was an ape that God made?" I don't claim to know why any prophets of any religion said the things they did, and I certainly don't claim that any of them were right. Have any good evidence that might convince me to take Moses' word over any of the others? "Furthermore, Eve spoke to the serpent and spoke words to Adam that Moses tells us she said, wouldn't an ape be unable to speak our language?" Wouldn't a snake have an even harder time speaking our language? Human language (and ape language for that matter) is much more complex than "hiss hiss hiss, rattle, hiss." "Thus, you are wrong in saying that it is "perfectly in keeping with evolution"." The slow transformation from ape through the hominid sequence into modern man is in keeping with evolution. Whether you believe in evolution or not is one thing, but don't try to change its definition. "Finally, we are told that God made man in His image; I very much doubt - and I speak for the majority of the thousands of Christians that there are on this planet - God is a big hairy ape that walks on all fours." Actually there are over a billion Christians on this planet, don't sell your religion short. Allow me to speak for the 3 billion + people in the world who do not follow the Abrahamic God in one form or the other when I say: start using extra-biblical evidence. Support your claim outside of the realm of circular reasoning. If the Bible is perfect, then the world should be filled to the gills with evidence supporting it. Most, if not all, discoveries found throughout our world should lead clearly and unavoidably back to it. No other religion should be able to compete, and neither would scientific or historical information. Yet all of these sources contradict at least some Biblical accounts. So by all means, please present something that doesn't start with "In the Bible it says." "No offence, but its an invention, just like we are told." That may be what you are told, but not I. If it were an invention, here's a list of just a tiny fraction of the other things that would have to be invented to prop evolution up: allele variation, consistent molecular variance patterns, endogenous retroviruses, junk DNA, atavisms and vestigial structures, genetic drift, gene flow, mutations, the morphological and genetic similarities representing a pattern of development clearly visible throughout phylogeny, a rich and diverse fossil record that is also clearly visible in phylogeny, rigid and consistent rates of decay for over 40 isotopes, different kinds of organism in different strata that match up very nicely globally, identical fossils in regions that were later separated by continental drift and gave rise to totally different extant life forms, ring species, difference in population dynamics between islands and mainland, antibiotic resistance, and the observed speciation of organisms including but not limited to: Oenothera gigas, Stephanomeira malheurensis, sympatric speciation in Drosophila melanogaster, and the apple maggot fly. If evolution is an invention, so are at least the majority of these observed phenomena. Aside from the specifically named cases of speciation, each phenomena that I listed has at least a few dozen observed and recorded cases, some have thousands. A tip of the iceberg on evidence: http://evolution.berkeley. http://ngm.nationalgeographic.com/2006/ http://www.gate.net/~rwms/ http://anthro.palomar.edu/synthetic/ http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/ let me know if you want something specific regarding the above-mentioned lines of evidence that I didn't yet provide a source for. "And you my friend have fallen for the words of fools." I mean no offense to our ancient ancestors, but by modern day understandings, they were the fools. They didn't have much to work with but their imaginations and extremely limited observations. To continue to proliferate their unfounded speculations as fact in the modern era is equivalent to saying a first-grader is better at math than an adult who has a terminal degree in the field. And considering how many of our recent medical advancements and work within genetics is based on evolutionary principles and work as predicted, that would appear to be some rather fortuitous foolishness on the part of biologists. Not to mention chemists, geologists, physicists and every other field of science whose discoveries further validate the theory of evolution. Okay, your turn :) Side: evolutionism
"Actually there are over a billion Christians on this planet, don't sell your religion short" Out of the over-a-billion Christians, I am aware that many of them are not true Christians, hence my reason for saying "thousands". Just because one calls him/herself a Christian that does not make him/her one; it is faith, obeying God and many more aspects of Christianity that class you as what you are. "Support your claim outside of the realm of circular reasoning. If the Bible is perfect, then the world should be filled to the gills with evidence supporting it" Follow my other current arguments and you will see I'm doing just that. "So by all means, please present something that doesn't start with "In the Bible it says" What do you wish me to present? Atheists often ask Christians to prove the bible is true without mistakes. I could disprove the alleged discrepancies in Genesis if you like, or perhaps something else? Maybe I could disprove evolution (: As for the sites you gave me, they were rather irrelevant. One had a game you could play where you tell the differences between the given limbs, another didn't have a follow on page after introduction, another was pictures of bats telling me stories about their wings, another (as all sites that have been sent to me have done) showed no evidence but stated many dates. "I mean no offense to our ancient ancestors, but by modern day understandings, they were the fools." Wrong, they were in no way a fool; the bible definition of a fool is a man without God who despises wisdom and instruction - the bible is filled with wisdom and instruction thus the servants of God that wrote it were quite the opposite of a fool. P.S. - You never covered this point that I stated in my last post "Why also would Moses say that God made "man" if it was an ape that God made?" You were saying that the statement Moses made of man being upright was in perfect keeping with evolution. I then disproved what you said and went on to ask this question. Side: creationism
"Out of the over-a-billion Christians, I am aware that many of them are not true Christians, hence my reason for saying "thousands". Just because one calls him/herself a Christian that does not make him/her one; it is faith, obeying God and many more aspects of Christianity that class you as what you are." A collection of perfect universal truths should be so compelling and powerful and logical and obvious that it shouldn't cause division, it should foster unity. 1 or 2 good reads through the Bible should be able to convince the most skeptical, and should lead to the same conclusions regardless of the reader and their cultural indoctrination. If a truly all-knowing entity actually wrote a book, we should expect no less, no contradiction should ever gain currency. Indeed, the most skeptical among us would end up being the strongest believers because none of the arguments we use against it would be able, in our understanding, to overwhelm the truth contained within the tome, no matter how hard we tried. Faith should be a completely unnecessary method for discerning the truth. Instead, we see continual fracturing of the religion almost from day one. We see dozens of religions, many of which are older than Christianity, continue on in their beliefs, regarding Christianity as a cute superstition at best, and a damnable heresy at worse. And as we get better and better at observing the world around us and knowing what our observations mean, the number of atheists rises sharply. How can all of this occur thousands of years after the inception of Christianity if the wisdom of the Bible is so obvious and righteous? "Follow my other current arguments and you will see I'm doing just that." Well, I have been following your debate with Nautilus. In fact I even posted on that debate but you failed to respond. Unless I'm forgetting something, I didn't see you step outside of the Bible for support. What I did see, however, was this line that you wrote: "As for the other contributor, I didn't read that post, I am debating you not her." What's good for the goose is good for the gander isn't it? I mean, I've got a dozen other arguments on this site containing information that I haven't brought up to you yet, but I don't intend on sending you out on a time-consuming hunt to seek them all down and decide which ones are most relevant to this conversation. If you don't want to re-type your arguments, you can always cut-and-paste. "What do you wish me to present?" Logic, science, history, I'm not picky. Surprise me! The only stipulation is that it has to be extra-biblical. Like I said, I don't think I've seen you step outside of the Bible. To give you an idea of what this feels like, imagine if every argument that I made related to a quote from Darwin's "Origin of Species." That wouldn't be too convincing now, would it? "Maybe I could disprove evolution (:" Feel free to try to do something that has yet to happen in over 150 years of continuous research. Indeed, I gave you a whole slew of pieces of supporting evidence to refute. Bring it on :) "As for the sites you gave me, they were rather irrelevant." That seems to be your stock answer to anything we provide you with. And being picky about sources isn't bad, indeed its rather scientific of you. The problem is, you aren't providing much aside from Bible quotations. Why don't you provide a few sources to show me what meets your criteria? Also, while I will grant some of the sources are better than others, pretty much all of them contain one or more of the following features: visual displays, references to outside sources, links to established definitions and descriptions of methodology, explanations of mathematical formulas, specific dates and so on. Your own source, the Bible, doesn't have any of these things. Its only source for its complete veracity is itself. Why not hold it up to the same standards? "the bible definition of a fool is a man without God who despises wisdom and instruction" Why is it so hard for you to realize that atheists aren't swayed by the Bible. Why not step into the common territory we both share: observed reality and the English language? from Dictionary.com: "Fool: 1. a silly or stupid person; a person who lacks judgment or sense. 2.a professional jester, formerly kept by a person of royal or noble rank for amusement: the court fool. 3.a person who has been tricked or deceived into appearing or acting silly or stupid: to make a fool of someone. 4.an ardent enthusiast who cannot resist an opportunity to indulge an enthusiasm (usually preceded by a present participle): He's just a dancing fool. 5.a weak-minded or idiotic person." I am willing to rescind my evaluation of the ancestors based on the notion that none of these descriptions universally refer to them, but these descriptions certainly don't universally apply to scientists either. "You never covered this point that I stated in my last post "Why also would Moses say that God made "man" if it was an ape that God made?"' I see there must have been some confusion between us. I was referring to the notion that humans not being quadrupedal anymore is in keeping with evolution, I was not trying to refer to Moses' statement particularly. I apologize for the confusion and my misunderstanding. That being said, I still don't see why I should place more faith in anything Moses said than any other founder of a religion. Side: evolutionism
"How can all of this occur thousands of years after the inception of Christianity if the wisdom of the Bible is so obvious and righteous?" Many answers can be included here. Some do not have the ability to have the faith that Paul describes we should have - they cannot believe without seeing God, therefore they do not believe that wisdom and righteoussness is in the Bible. Others may be afraid to give up their successes and luxurious lifestyles, that ooze sin and shame, for God therefore shut Him out and continue on their paths to destruction. Perhaps another reason is that men take one look at all the suffering in the world and points his finger at God blaming Him for it then tells the world that he doesn't think God is fit to be worshipped. There are countless answers, all you have to do is take a look at debates here on this site and read what the non-believers argue; your answer will lie there. "Well, I have been following your debate with Nautilus. In fact I even posted on that debate but you failed to respond. Unless I'm forgetting something, I didn't see you step outside of the Bible for support. What I did see, however, was this line that you wrote: "As for the other contributor, I didn't read that post, I am debating you not her." What's good for the goose is good for the gander isn't it? I mean, I've got a dozen other arguments on this site containing information that I haven't brought up to you yet, but I don't intend on sending you out on a time-consuming hunt to seek them all down and decide which ones are most relevant to this conversation. If you don't want to re-type your arguments, you can always cut-and-paste." I try to keep my number of debates limited so that my posts and arguments are higher quality than they would be if I was arguing a hundred-and-one arguments; the logic here is simple. Like I mentioned to someone else here, time is an issue therefore by keeping the number of debates lowered, I can spend more time on each individual; seems fair does it not? That is fine if you don't want to follow my debates, but you mentioned that I was only including scriptual evidence; the debate you mentioned with Nautilus is very much related to scripture which is why I was including scripture; I was asked to disprove the alleged discrepancies in Genesis which requires verses to be included here and there. Sure, I will cut and paste if you like but that takes time - and I'm willing to do this as I am debating you - but I'm sure you can understand that if I was debating yet another person, I would not have time to cut and paste therefore this debate would be rather dull. You understand? "Logic, science, history, I'm not picky. Surprise me! The only stipulation is that it has to be extra-biblical. Like I said, I don't think I've seen you step outside of the Bible. That wouldn't be too convincing now, would it?" I have stepped outside of the bible, I have used text from studies and theories disproving Evolution that have used little or no scriptural evidence. As for "To give you an idea of what this feels like, imagine if every argument that I made related to a quote from Darwin's "Origin of Species" believe me, I know what it feels like to have a bunch of studies rammed in my face over and over; its tiring and rather a nuisance. "Feel free to try to do something that has yet to happen in over 150 years of continuous research. Indeed, I gave you a whole slew of pieces of supporting evidence to refute. Bring it on" Actually, evolution has been disproven, its nuisance scientists that keep claiming to have found another fossil from millions of years ago that keep the world thinking that evolution still has a chance of being proven. But yeah, I'm more than happy to bring it on. :) "And being picky about sources isn't bad, indeed its rather scientific of you. The problem is, you aren't providing much aside from Bible quotations. Why don't you provide a few sources to show me what meets your criteria?" Well actually, I am more than happy to be convinced of something new, but it is rather irritating been directed to link after link after link that make statements of plants being found billions of years ago then no evidence to support it. And wrong, I have not been supplying lone biblical quotations, I have supplied links, arguments and reasoning. As for a link, here is one that I sent to another member a few hours previously; it disproves evolution and I find it of great value. You may complain about the existant biblical content, but if you do that I may as well complain about the lack of biblical content in the links that are sent to me. Either or, its a petty argument that deliberately avoids the debate. "Why is it so hard for you to realize that atheists aren't swayed by the Bible" It's not, but you misunderstood my meaning of the word 'fool' thus I thought I'd let you in on the definition I was inferring. Atheists use puns such as "holy crap" and guess what? Christians have 'ways of talking' too. "I see there must have been some confusion between us. I was referring to the notion that humans not being quadrupedal anymore is in keeping with evolution, I was not trying to refer to Moses' statement particularly. I apologize for the confusion and my misunderstanding. That being said, I still don't see why I should place more faith in anything Moses said than any other founder of a religion" Thats quite alright although you still haven't answered the point. I never asked you to place faith in Moses' words. This debate began with your comments on my post of the worlds Creation and I quoted Genesis; a book written by Moses. I was entitled to quoting the book as this debate asks which we believe in and I chose Creationism therefore it was required of me to give a reason why and back it up. I backed it up with the evidence I believed in, whether you believe in it or not. So, you are still required to answer the point you have still not answered yet it was in one of my first posts: ""You never covered this point that I stated in my last post "Why also would Moses say that God made "man" if it was an ape that God made?" Side: creationism
"Some do not have the ability to have the faith that Paul describes we should have - they cannot believe without seeing God, therefore they do not believe that wisdom and righteoussness is in the Bible." Sure, I'd put myself in that category. According to most Christians I'm going to end up Hell for that. However, if God created me as I am, than it really isn't my fault that I can't believe in him without evidence. So how is it fair that I roast in Hell for all eternity? Even less fair, what about the millions of people in the world who won't ever even be exposed to the Bible. Some of them might be fully able to accept it with ease, yet according to God's plan they never get the opportunity to accept Jesus, and will be sitting next to me in Hell (I should brush up on my foreign language skills, I suppose). "Others may be afraid to give up their successes and luxurious lifestyles, that ooze sin and shame, for God therefore shut Him out and continue on their paths to destruction." Fair enough. But there are plenty of other religions where people are encouraged to give up such lifestyles. Buddhism, for example. So why doesn't every Buddhist who is already compliant towards this lifestyle transfer over to Christianity upon exposure to it? "Perhaps another reason is that men take one look at all the suffering in the world and points his finger at God blaming Him for it then tells the world that he doesn't think God is fit to be worshipped." Or they conclude that He does not exist. As I never believed in God, I did not go through this directly, but many atheists don't go through a "blame God" stage. They instead go through a "well, that falsifies that hypothesis" stage. "There are countless answers, all you have to do is take a look at debates here on this site and read what the non-believers argue; your answer will lie there." Just as their are different types of Christians, there are different types of atheists. We each got to this point through our own reasoning and experiences. Most of the non-believers on the site seem to just want Christians to provide rational proof for God's existence. "You understand?" Yes, I do. My point was that you were asking me to do something that you seemed unwilling to do yourself. I think it is best for both of us to keep our points within the debate we are having, as both of us have time limitations. If a point isn't worth your time to cut-and-paste, it probably isn't worth my time to track down. "I have stepped outside of the bible, I have used text from studies and theories disproving Evolution that have used little or no scriptural evidence." Not in our debate here. As far as your debate with Nautilus, I didn't see any such thing until the last response you posted to him before I read this. And that was after I made my response to you. "As for "To give you an idea of what this feels like, imagine if every argument that I made related to a quote from Darwin's "Origin of Species" believe me, I know what it feels like to have a bunch of studies rammed in my face over and over; its tiring and rather a nuisance." A bunch of studies (which have been closely inspected, evaluated and cross-referenced) > than a very old collection of fables with no references to external sources. It's called "thorough research." "Actually, evolution has been disproven, its nuisance scientists that keep claiming to have found another fossil from millions of years ago that keep the world thinking that evolution still has a chance of being proven." The funny thing is, modern evolutionary study is only mildly reliant on fossils at this point. I will admit that they get the most press. Many people are fascinated by dinosaurs, fossils are relatively simple, and for a layman to understand the molecular stuff going on requires a vast amount of explanation in biology and chemistry that most people wouldn't take the time to read anyway. But most informed evolutionists who know a few things about science are aware that the really good information is genetic. The fossils set the stage, but we couldn't properly figure out the mechanism that actually makes evolution work until we started being able to look at the DNA and make comparisons between different populations and generations. Unfortunately, this kind of stuff flies over the heads of most people who haven't studied biology, genetics and organic chemistry, so the articles on this stuff doesn't get as much face-time with the general public. As far as the theory of evolution being "proven", you apparently don't understand how scientific theories work. Theories aren't intended to be facts, they are intended to explain why facts happen. They are only ever as strong as our current knowledge base allows. There could always be something going on that we are not aware of, so scientists refuse to call a theory proven until we know everything about everything (which I suspect will never happen.) That being said, if a theory does not line up with the available knowledge, it can be disproved. Its called falsifiability, and this only has to happen once for scientists to turn their back on a theory, but it has to happen in a way that explains away or invalidates all of the supporting evidence. Contrary to what you have been told, this has never happened with the theory of evolution. Conversely, "creation science" can't even get off the ground. It can't even compete with fossil data or phylogeny, and has no hopes of dueling with genetics. "But yeah, I'm more than happy to bring it on. :)" You may start whenever you are ready :) "As for a link, here is one that I sent to another member a few hours previously; it disproves evolution and I find it of great value." I'm looking forward to it, but, I don't see any links here. "Atheists use puns such as "holy crap" and guess what?" LOL. "Holy crap" isn't atheist slang, its just American, and older than I am. :) "Thats quite alright although you still haven't answered the point. I never asked you to place faith in Moses' words." I think it should be clear to you by now that I don't believe his words. I would need more verification to do so. How can I possibly know whether he was lying, misquoted or just plain wrong? So why would he say it? I don't have enough information to answer that, and I don't believe you do either. Side: evolutionism
Since you have not replied in about 15 days and are debating heatedly in numorous other debates, I will assume judging by a comment I noticed you put in a post to someone; "But I feel (arrogantly, perhaps) that if I post an argument and my opponent does not respond, it is a victory on my part" that you are defeated. Peace. Side: creationism
Ha! I guess that is fair enough thing for you to say, but I have not given up. I am somewhere around point 20 on the article. I will admit I've allowed myself to be somewhat sidetracked though. Provided I have the time tonight and tomorrow, I will try to finish it up. In fact I might as well start digging it further right now :) Side: evolutionism
"So how is it fair that I roast in Hell for all eternity?" Well, look at it this way: how is it fair that man rejected God over and over again even after all that He had done for them? He even sent His only Son who was rejected, spat on and crucified. Regardless of whether you believe that or not, you asked why its fair that you burn in hell, so that may not seem fair to you but you do have a choice. "Even less fair, what about the millions of people in the world who won't ever even be exposed to the Bible." Well, since you are speaking of the bible and what we are told, I assume you are wanting scriptural evidence to answer the questions you ask about those who have not heard the gospel. We are told in Romans 1:20 that "For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse." Paul is telling us that God has clearly revealed Himself in nature to us. Another thing you have to consider is that God is fair (although you may not believe this, I am quoting the bible to answer your question on whether man will go to hell if he has not heard the gospel). “Some of them might be fully able to accept it with ease” Ahh, this is an excuse that many atheists I have met use. It is not a question about whether it is easy for us; we already know that being a Christian can be very difficult at times; but that is what prayer and faith is for. We believe and pray that our faith is made stronger by Him who created us. Christianity is not expected to be an easy ride – by no means. “and will be sitting next to me in Hell” I don’t think one will be able to “sit” in Hell; the fire would cause too much pain for one to be able to lounge back in a chair. “I should brush up on my foreign language skills, I suppose” Nor do I believe one will have the strength to speak; I rather believe it will be yells and anguished screams. The way atheists speak about hell is rather interesting, for, as they do not believe in it, they speak of it as if it’s a small fire similar to a fireplace we have in our living rooms.
“But there are plenty of other religions where people are encouraged to give up such lifestyles” We were speaking in relation to why atheists do not believe in Christianity, not why Muslims, Jews or Buddhists do not believe in it. Besides, even if we were to throw in a couple other religions such as Jews or Muslims, they have different rewards at the end of their lives don’t they? In addition, Jews do not generally accept Jesus Christ as it is He that the Jews (at the time of His crucifixion) crucified, therefore that would most likely be a main reason why Jews would not accept the word of God. But that is a whole other debate that would extend our posts ridiculously but we could surely debate that after this if you so wish. “So why doesn't every Buddhist who is already compliant towards this lifestyle transfer over to Christianity upon exposure to it?” Again, there are countless answers and I do not know every one of them. Every man has his own reason for not believing in God, just like every man has his own reason for believing in whatever he does or does not believe in. To round up all the possible answers and slot them in here would take forever and a day. “but many atheists don't go through a "blame God" stage. They instead go through a "well, that falsifies that hypothesis" stage” More than one atheist (that I have met) was once a Christian, and when he (I am thinking of one in particular) became an atheist, he was furious at God for the amount of time he’d “wasted” on his knees praying to Him. Granted, that sentence does not make sense to many as an atheist cannot be furious at God as atheists believe there is no God, but he was very confused and angry at that point, which is the “stage of blaming God” I am referring to. Now, he is as atheist as atheists get. “Just as their are different types of Christians, there are different types of atheists. We each got to this point through our own reasoning and experiences. Most of the non-believers on the site seem to just want Christians to provide rational proof for God's existence” I understand, and when it is their (the atheists) turn to provide evidence, they provide link after link, study after study that provides stories, diagrams and graphs yet lacks to provide the raw data that is evidence for the whole supposition. It is all very well sending me a study or a picture, but without the real evidence, it is irrelevant. “The earth was created x amount of time ago and blah blah blah” is not evidence, it’s a false statement without evidence. “I think it is best for both of us to keep our points within the debate we are having, as both of us have time limitations. If a point isn't worth your time to cut-and-paste, it probably isn't worth my time to track down” I understand and completely agree with you. “Not in our debate here. As far as your debate with Nautilus, I didn't see any such thing until the last response you posted to him before I read this. And that was after I made my response to you.” I was not just referring to my time here (which is all of about 3 days). I was referring to all of the debates I have participated in in general. “A bunch of studies (which have been closely inspected, evaluated and cross-referenced) > than a very old collection of fables with no references to external sources. It's called "thorough research” Huh, “thorough research” that fails to provide the evidence that supports the whole study… “Evaluated, closely inspected and cross referenced” by more scientists who fail to support their own theories with the raw data that is expected but not presented… I wonder why that is? It certainly isn't because "most people wouldn't take the time to read anyway"; I know I would read it!
“The funny thing is, modern evolutionary study is only mildly reliant on fossils at this point. I will admit that they get the most press. Many people are fascinated by dinosaurs, fossils are relatively simple, and for a layman to understand the molecular stuff going on requires a vast amount of explanation in biology and chemistry that most people wouldn't take the time to read anyway. But most informed evolutionists who know a few things about science are aware that the really good information is genetic. The fossils set the stage, but we couldn't properly figure out the mechanism that actually makes evolution work until we started being able to look at the DNA and make comparisons between different populations and generations. Unfortunately, this kind of stuff flies over the heads of most people who haven't studied biology, genetics and organic chemistry, so the articles on this stuff doesn't get as much face-time with the general public” An explanation which interpreted means: excuses, excuses, excuses. “You may start whenever you are ready” Ok, now is as good a time as any I suppose. Firstly, I ask that perhaps we narrow our debate down to one specific argument so that the posts are not so long and we can focus on one argument at a time. So, for example, our first argument can be evolution: you are for it, I am against it, and in doing this we throw other debates out the window for the time being. Are you in agreement with this? “I'm looking forward to it, but, I don't see any links here” Stupid me, I forgot to include it (I was exhausted so forgive my dumb mistake). Here it is: http://ldolphin.org/wmwilliams.html. It is a link I sent to another debater who also was in agreement with evolution. “LOL. "Holy crap" isn't atheist slang, its just American, and older than I am.” I am aware of it being an old term, but when an atheist types this to a Christian during a debate, you can see the pun, no? “So why would he say it? I don't have enough information to answer that, and I don't believe you do either.” On the contrary, there are many reasons why he said it and perhaps you don’t have enough information but I however do. Which piece of information do you want? The fact that God wrote it using his servant? Or are you wanting a more ‘lets get inside Moses’ head’ answer, because unfortunately I don’t have him here with me so I can’t analyze what he was thinking at the time. Perhaps you want a logical answer, so here is one of many: Moses saw his fellow man, and saw that he was upright. But, since he was around long after Adam and Eve were created, he wondered ‘I wonder if they were apes and we evolved from them’ but this did not go hand in hand with what God was telling him to write so instead of creating an “invention” (Ecclesiastes 7:29) he wrote what God (the Creator of every living thing) told him He truly created; man (and we know that God did not lie to Moses as He cannot lie (Titus 1:2). P.S. - one minute you say you don't want scriptural evidence and that I should step ouside of the bible then you are asking me questions about hell and what Moses wrote, which, lets face it, the answers are in the bible. So, lets pick our one single debate and stick to it without changing the rules to fit our arguments. Side: creationism
(Well, I didn't know if there is a character limit for arguments, but yep, there is, so I will have to break this down. Each additional part will be found in "supports" from the prior): Part I “Well, look at it this way: how is it fair that man rejected God over and over again even after all that He had done for them? He even sent His only Son who was rejected, spat on and crucified. Regardless of whether you believe that or not, you asked why its fair that you burn in hell, so that may not seem fair to you but you do have a choice.” What he “did” is give me the powers of observation and logic, and then failed to present himself to those powers in any way but through a highly spurious collection of fables with little-to-no outside evidence provided as verification, with appeals only aimed at the heart and not the mind, and the illogical and contradictory words of his followers. The only thing I have turned my back on is a highly suspect concept. “We are told in Romans 1:20 that "For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse." Paul is telling us that God has clearly revealed Himself in nature to us. “ Except of course for the billions of people who see different Gods and creation stories apparent in these “invisible attributes,” ones which have been supported by their own cultural upbringing, upbringing which cause them to reject all others. Yeah, they clearly have no excuse for not believing fables they haven’t heard and our contradicted by their own. As far as my comment of “Ease of acceptance”, what I meant was that if they were exposed to the teachings they may come to believe them instantly. But if they have the chance, we shall never know, and they will never have the opportunity to bring Christ into their heart. “Besides, even if we were to throw in a couple other religions such as Jews or Muslims, they have different rewards at the end of their lives don’t they?” Precisely my point. Different rewards, different potential punishments, different stories seeking to validate the religion’s claims, yet similar results. Social control, but control that isn’t necessary in light of the fact that atheists are just as capable of doing good works. In the next couple paragraphs, we are both basically saying the same thing, different people who HAVE been exposed to the Word of God have responded in different ways. We aren’t really debating anything at this point. “when it is their (the atheists) turn to provide evidence, they provide link after link, study after study that provides stories, diagrams and graphs yet lacks to provide the raw data that is evidence for the whole supposition. It is all very well sending me a study or a picture, but without the real evidence, it is irrelevant. “The earth was created x amount of time ago and blah blah blah” is not evidence, it’s a false statement without evidence. Huh, “thorough research” that fails to provide the evidence that supports the whole study… “Evaluated, closely inspected and cross referenced” by more scientists who fail to support their own theories with the raw data that is expected but not presented… I wonder why that is?” Which is really no different than the writing I am about to respond to. Indeed, Rev. Williams is highly inconsistent in his approach. Sometimes he does a wonderful job of citing his sources, but the vast majority of his points are completely unsupported by anything aside from us taking him at his word. And even when he does go a little more in depth, I fail to see how these points are anything different than the “scientists who fail to support their own theories with the raw data that is expected but not presented”… I wonder why that is? The primary exception is on most of the mathematical points. Those are usually sufficiently described, although based on improper evidence and/or failing to logically support his assertions. The biggest differences between my links and yours are: a) yours is longer. b) yours is much less consistent in presentation. c) yours is horribly out of date. “An explanation which interpreted means: excuses, excuses, excuses.” Here’s a challenge for you: go out and ask people what they believe about evolution. They don’t at all have to believe IN evolution (although it would be best to find people who do and people who don’t), just ask them what they know about it: What the definition of evolution is, what the evidence supporting it is, what the ACTUAL mechanism that runs it is, where the got their information from. I’ve been doing this informally off-and-on for awhile now and I’ve noticed that most people, regardless of their stance, have a hard time answering any of these questions, and most of them make only passing references to the actual molecular interactions involved. I suspect you will find similar responses. “Firstly, I ask that perhaps we narrow our debate down to one specific argument so that the posts are not so long and we can focus on one argument at a time. So, for example, our first argument can be evolution: you are for it, I am against it, and in doing this we throw other debates out the window for the time being. Are you in agreement with this?” Yes. In fact, since you called me on my delay, I will happily ignore all other debates on this site until this is posted (I’ve been writing it out on word this whole time, just came in to the file the revise a bit and finish it off.) Let me make one last comment on your response and then everything else will be about your link. But first: “P.S. - one minute you say you don't want scriptural evidence and that I should step ouside of the bible then you are asking me questions about hell and what Moses wrote, which, lets face it, the answers are in the bible. So, lets pick our one single debate and stick to it without changing the rules to fit our arguments.” Let me clarify, if what I am asking about is specifically about the Bible, than of course you have the right to quote scripture. But let me reiterate: If the Bible is completely true, than we can expect outside evidence of most of what it says, and there should be no such outside evidence that contradicts it. And if no outside evidence supports a notion (such as, for instance, Hell) than I don’t see any reason to believe in it. Okay, now let’s take a look a Rev. Williams’ arguments. Side: evolutionism
Part II: Right off the bat there’s a huge problem with this article: Its 86 years out-of-date. Unlike religion, science if a self-correcting and dynamic school of thought that changes in accordance with the evidence. In the time since this was written, we have gained considerable knowledge of the role of DNA, demonstrated and observed abiogenic formation of organic molecules, revised our “age of Earth” estimates from 200 million years to over 4.5 billion, discovered continental drift and much, much more. Many of his points are rendered obsolete by more recent and accurate observations. That being said, I undertook the challenge of focusing my attacks primarily on the shear logic and validity of his points as pure arguments regardless of current knowledge. This was more difficult, but even here I found many of his points to be lacking. Because the new information is important I will reference it, but only briefly, in terms of theories or key words, and put those points in (parenthesis). I will spend a little more time with the more logic-based arguments, although everything will be relatively brief and concise. Feel free to request elaboration and citation (I will not be providing links at this time, but ask for any that you want when you respond). Preamble to Part 1: “Any scientific theory or hypothesis must be proved first possible, then probable, then certain. To be a possible theory, it must be reconcilable with many facts; to be a probable theory, it must be reconcilable with many more; to be a certain and proven theory, it must be reconcilable with all the facts.” Before his first point he has already displayed a misunderstanding of what a scientific theory is. All theories are probable; none are meant to be facts or laws. They describe why facts and laws are the way they are, and are as strong as the supporting evidence. A theory can be disproved, to be sure. But proving it requires absolute knowledge of everything, and we don’t have that, so the work horse of the theory is the evidence. 1. Population of the World: (The population of the world hit 3 billion in 1960, then 6 billion right around 2000. This 40-year doubling time is about 1/4 as long as his estimate suggests it should be.) Population growth rates, and therefore doubling time, are reliant on multiple factors: carrying capacity, infant mortality and life expectancy being the 3 big ones. CC and LE were much lower in prehistoric times, while IM was much higher. These factors put us at subsistence level, massively hampering our growth rate. The development of agriculture helped raise CC massively, and the onset of civilization changed IM and LE in our favor. The idea that a specific group would line up with overall average isn’t too surprising since the 3 factors were roughly congruent throughout recorded history until the last century or two. However the math of prehistoric man would be quite different, (just as the math for the last century is also very different from the preceding 8000 or so years.) 2. Unity of Languages Some languages are tonal some are not. Some have completely different sentence structures than most others. Some rely heavily on sounds that are completely absent in others. On average, it takes 7-10 years for a person to master a language. This is unity? More directly to his point, languages and dialects within languages “evolve” at different rates for in different locations and for a wide variety of reasons, completely nullifying his constant rate conjecture. Yes, there was probably a common language, but not any time recently. 3 & 4: Religion and Place of the Origin of Man Both of these simply confirm a common origin of man. Evolution doesn’t refute that, in fact, it relies on that. He made the same point with languages, but at lest attempted to show how they couldn’t be so “unified” in such a long period of time. Here he doesn’t even try, so these points are irrelevant to his case and do nothing to dispute evolution. 5. Civilization Civilization developed independently of the Fertile Crescent in Sub-Saharan Africa, South America and China, and nomads were almost everywhere else. There was more than one center of civilization. Besides, nothing about evolution requires that there were many, although that is how it played out by circumstance. Again he’s making the rather odd assumption that evolutionists don’t believe in common ancestry, but common ancestry is at the heart of evolution. 6. Mendellian Inheritance Laws The pea plants in Mendel’s experiments didn’t change species, they simply expressed different alleles, and those varieties already existed in nature. He was doing artificial selection that helped him focus specific phenotypes into specific groups, which is pretty similar to why humans have different races but are all the same species. The idea that all of our recessive genes would kick in simultaneously and cause us to revert to a previous species demonstrates a big misunderstanding of Mendel’s experiment (and has since been proven to be impossible by genetics. We have also learned that some of the major evolutionary forces ((gene flow, genetic drift, mutation, random mating)) can extinguish some recessive genes, but this wasn’t known or widely believed by evolutionists in Rev. Williams’ time.) 7. Biometry Truth is, I don’t know enough about biostatistics to properly refute this or analyze the validity of it. So I’ll let this one stand. Onward 8. No New Species Now (Current estimate of age of life is about 3.8 billion years, not 60 million, massively altering calculations.) Much like some of the previous arguments, his obsession with averages totally ignores reality. Different lines evolve in different amounts of time, (and different periods and geographical locales foster different rates of evolution) so his average and doubling times are useless in this application. Also the idea that not a single new species has been named is not supported. We are constantly finding new species of plants, animal and fungus, and this has always been the case. Although I grant that very few of these are brand new organisms, his premise is based on a huge fallacy. And even by his time there were a few recorded cases of speciation. (And many more since then.) 9. There is no 9. 10. Age of the Earth (Geology couldn’t really do anything right until the Continental Drift Theory was incorporated. Almost every single theory he mentions, the ones he refutes and the ones he supports have all been proven wrong by modern geology. Same goes with the Sun’s age, which is supportable by modern astronomy.) Even if his numbers were correct, the assumption that because the amount of time it takes to form a river is less than age of the Earth points to a younger Earth is invalid. Surface features, especially rivers, change over time and even the geologists of his time knew this. 11. Geology and History This is a random collection of arguments. Some I have already responded to. As far as the others: Piltdown man: we know and admit that this was a hoax. Christians have also manufactured some hoaxes of their own. If it Piltdown the only option we had, this would be damning. But there were a few others in his time . (Pithecanthropus is now understood to be a population of homo erectus. Many more specimens of this population have been found. Likewise, many new specimens of Neanderthals and Homo heidelbergensis have been uncovered.) The number of remains for “missing link” species was automatically lowered by his presumption that most of them were extinct apes, thus relying on bias. (Plus, many, many new ones have been uncovered.) "In the year 1806, the French Institute enumerated not less than 80 geological theories which were hostile to the Scriptures; but not one of these theories is held today." Irrelevant. In science, progress is attained through airing out all possibilities and discarding the incorrect ones. Failures of the past speak nothing of the present. Unless of course, one doesn’t adapt one’s theories in the face of new information, like religion. Also, this comment was taken completely out of context, as it was said as a preface to an argument supporting uniformitarianism. “All the bacilli remain the same microscopic species, even those too microscopic to be seen or isolated.” If you can’t see it, you can’t know this. (We now can see them changing, both genetically and morphologically.) (There are plenty other archaeopteryx fossils now, as well as few other dino-bird transitionals. They have several skeletal features in common with birds, but also many that no birds have, but some dinosaurs do.) 12. Geographical distribution (Continental drift.) 13. God not Absent or Inactive It is funny how, after extolling that God is all-powerful, he seems to imply that God is not capable of using evolution as a process. Later, he confuses scientific law with the more colloquial usage of the word. The remainder of this section translates as “Life is complex and impressive; therefore God.” Which is only an answer to someone who is too lazy to investigate. 14. Chance or Design? More of the same. (The eye argument is rendered useless in the face of the fact that many creatures get by just fine and dandy without eyes that are as complex as ours. Several engineering companies use evolutionary theory in computer programs to design, “by chance”, structures and systems that are more efficient than those that human designers have made. Just like in nature, they quickly discard the poor ones and watch the remaining ones improve gradually over generations, but with computer programs that we now have, we can sort through billions of years of evolution in a few days.) 15. “Evolution Atheistic” More of his “God of the Gaps” drivel. But more to the point: evolution defies strict literal interpretations of the Bible, but so do many Christians. Many theologians have pointed out that many sections of the Bible, especially the OT, were obvious parables meant to give a description of somewhat abstract concepts. Further, many were borrowed from pre-existing beliefs. But aside from contradicting the Bible, evolution says absolutely nothing about God. All of naturalistic science says “no comment” when God comes up. If some Christians and atheists decide that evolution puts God out of the picture, than they are creating a false dichotomy that evolution itself is not related to. 16. Brute Descent Impossible The brain growth math, once again ignores the fact that different species evolve at different rates. Numerous factors dictate the speed and nature of the evolutionary process, and each species responds to these factors in unique ways. 17. Eight Impassable Gulfs Actually, he lists 9. This guy really doesn’t do well with the number 9 apparently. (1: It has been proven repeatedly that organic molecules can be formed in numerous different ways an are abundant in space. Regardless, this isn’t evolution, its abiogenesis.) (2-8: All documented to some extent or the other in the fossil record.) (We know now that there was MUCH more time available to pass these gulfs than he presumes.) 9: Existence of “soul” never proven. 18: Ancestral Monkeys and Apes (Common ancestor now known.) It is very clear in this passage that the author finds the idea of man being a primate to be highly unpleasant, and he makes no attempt to cover up his bias. But just because you don’t like what science is telling you, you don’t just toss it out the window. If a doctor tells you that you have an incurable disease, you wouldn’t like that either, but that dislike doesn’t make it untrue. He specifically asks “where is the comfort or gain?” But evolution is not about comfort, and the gain is in the attainment of learning, just like all science. As far as why monkeys and their ilk are not currently becoming human, we shouldn’t expect them to. Each line ended up on its own path, with separate environmental factors and sets of DNA, and the sum total of adaptations aren’t expected to create the same result. It is like asking, “why haven’t all cats become tigers?” But a tiger wouldn’t do as well in a lion’s environment as it does in its own home, and has accrued numerous personal adaptations from which the others build. (We now know how this works genetically), but this was shown in the morphological changes already observed in his time. Then he goes on to cherry-pick some external differences and completely ignores that we share numerous traits with primates that are only found in primates. Yes there are differences, but that’s like saying that because my cousin is a short red-head and I am a tall blonde, we can’t be related, even though most people who see us together see the familial resemblance with ease. 19: Staggering speculation. Well religion has some pretty staggering speculations itself. But, I find it funny that the things he’s looking for (like a plant cross-breeding with an animal) are no less bizarre and speculative than what he’s fighting against, and show his apparent ignorance in what evolution actually is. He seems to have filled in the gaps in his research with far-fetched notions intended to point out how ludicrous he finds the concept to be, without realizing that the evolutionists do not support these notions anyway. This is common with creationists, but not exactly supportive of their points once one actually researches the premise. 20: Sex Some of his information is actually correct, but he falls flat when he assumes that sexual reproduction occurred in one fell swoop, or that the animals just invented it. It happened in a process of refining, some of which was kept on by certain lines, others were altered and promoted within those lines, and still others failed and the line went extinct. Which is precisely what has been argued since Darwin’s day, our good Reverend simply willfully ignores this to justify his points of dispute. 21: Man hairless and tailless: (Phrenology was heavily disputed in his time, and has since been totally discredited.) Further, he seems to be totally ignorant of the fact that some lines are more prone to baldness than others, that some men do indeed have disgustingly hairy backs, and that apes in general have declining tails compared to arboreal monkeys. Also, even in his time there was the known phenomena of people occasionally being born with tails. Side: evolutionism
Part III: 22. Hybrids (Viable hybrids are indeed rare. Generally this actually helps promote speciation by forcing the species to go off in different directions. There are a few exceptions, especially in ring species, where new formation of species does occur, but this is one of the more rare methods of speciation and only works if the closely related species haven’t been fully separated.) As far as the differentiation between Kingdom, genera, phyla, etc., these are all rather arbitrary terms created by man for the purpose of organization. There is no separate process for each one, the main delineations iare time and the concentration of factors molding the specific group. (If we needed to have separate methods for each level, we would also need separate sets of DNA for each level, but one singular set is all we get and ends up being all we need. As AronRa says, “If it is possible to walk 20 feet, it is possible to walk 20 miles.” The difference is in the time taken and the change in scenery.) 23. The instinct of Animals His quoting of Darwin is not well carried out here. He basically just bulldozes past the points made by Darwin with the cry of “but it is so impressive what honeybees do,” a point which Darwin himself concedes. But once again, nature being impressive is not really relevant here. Life works, and evolution particularly favors the special traits that provide advantage, fine-tuning them over time. Also, he seems to supporting Lamarck’s view of adaptation, something which had already been thoroughly discredited by the 1920s. (A fair amount of genetic research has not only shown how animal instincts evolve, but even the more complex variations of instinct displayed by humans.) 24. Special Creation: Genesis 1 Lots of problems here, but as you said, we are talking about evolution. We can come back to this if we want to debate the veracity of the Bible. For now, I will move on, but am happy to return to this later, or in a different debate. 25. Analogy; Mathematics, Laws “There is no evolution in the science of mathematics. There is no change or growth or development.” Apparently he has never heard of Calculus. That is EXACTLY what calculus demonstrates, and the reason why all scientific fields employ calculus is because they need to in order to make proper sense of the evidence. And those logarithms that he so loves turn up heavily in calculus. As far as physical laws, yes those themselves don’t change. But their presence creates a very wide range of possibility depending on what they are being applied to, while simultaneously setting certain boundaries for every object. The rule of cause and affect determine which of the finite realm of possibilities is expressed within a certain object in certain conditions. The interactions between various cause-effect relationships change the range of possibilities continuously, and frequently in a temporal fashion. Everything that we have ever examined, even the universe itself, has shown signs of change, and ripples of change radiate out from all events, influencing the nature of anything in contact. There is not a single field of science that would work if this principle wasn’t true, and even religions employ this concept to varying degrees. EXISTENCE IS CHANGE. 26. Desperate arguments Every field has people in it that say ludicrous things that are not supportable by evidence. These statements can be ridiculed and put to bed, while our attention focuses on the more sensible and supported arguments made. One form of “desperate argument” is to imply that the lunatic fringe speaks for the whole, which is all that Rev. Williams is trying to do here. 27. 20 Objections Admitted So many of these are not linked to their specific sources, most our out-of-date, and at least of few are heavily out of context. This is called quote mining, and is a devious ploy used to attempt to add credibility to one’s claims. I have already invested too much time in this, and am barely more than half-way done, to respond to each of these, especially since I don’t know the context in which most were said. Part II: Evidence answered 29: Paleontology, 30: Confessed collapse of “Proof.” I already mentioned the updates in research concerning these species, and admitted that Piltdown was a fraud. No need to go back into this for now. (Much has changed in this field over the last 8+ decades.) 31: Pictures in Caverns It is true that these pictures are crude, that exact dating in some places is almost impossible, and that speculation is required to interpret what they mean. I don’t have any denial of that. But it is very weak and rarely used supporting evidence at best, so I don’t have any problems letting it stand. 32: Vestigial organs. He once again ignores the possibility of change that is so intrinsic in evolution. If he didn’t so adamantly refuse this notion, he would see the answer right there in the theory. Basically, part of the quality of an organ is related to the environmental factors involved. People and animals that descend from Himalayan stock have slightly different (more efficient) lungs than those whose ancestry has always been at or near sea level. In this case, the specific organ itself changed, and that’s pretty much the end of the story. But this isn’t always how it works. Significant changes over time and geography can affect the functionality of certain organs, particularly as full speciation occurs. Its basically a change in allocation of chores, some systems take over the roles of others, while others get more specialized. It can get complex, and I’m not sure I’m really trained enough in biology to fully explain it. But I can try to muster up the time to do more research and give a more thorough explanation later, if you desire. 33. Serology, or Blood Tests This is a pretty interesting subject, and another one for which I am not really knowledgeable enough to make much a comment. But, if I properly understand the point he is trying to make, he is implying that this line of inquiry is inconclusive. If that is true, than fine, we can dump it as supporting evidence for evolution. Considering how conclusive thousands of other lines of evidence supporting evolution, I don’t mind letting go of a few. He can have this point. 34. Embryology (It is true that at this time, embryology was pretty much at a dead end. The big reason was that we needed to understand and map DNA code first, which was still a few decades away from happening. While it is true that some lines of morphological evidence heavily supported evolution (and still do), there were too many gaps in the understanding that were unbridgeable at the time. But this is no longer the case. Now that we have an idea how genetics works and have developed very sophisticated tools to observe and measure embryonic development processes, embryology has become one of the fastest growing and most sophisticated fields of biology. It has provided a goldmine of evolutionary proof, but has also helped us understand a great variety of diseases and birth defects. The fact that we have used evolutionary principles to find ways to successfully cure or mitigate these conditions shows that evolution corresponds very nicely with reality. This is all new though, so I don’t blame him for not knowing about it. But it works and is being very heavily investigated as we speak. Most of the primary scientific supporters of evolution these days come from this field.) Part III: The Soul 35: The Origin of the Soul Not a shred of evidence here that the soul even exists, just contempt for those who believe that the vague concepts ascribed to the vague notion have physical components instead of spiritual ones (and to this date, psychology, neurology and biology have failed to find much, if anything, that cannot be ascribed to the chemical, hormonal and energetic processes observed in each field.) Further, religions have conflicting and sometimes mutually exclusive notions of what a soul really is and how it functions. None can draw from any authority except their holy books and esoteric philosophy. 36: Personality Personality is a very complex concept, one that is formed both by nature and nurture. (Quite a bit can now be explained by neurology.) Even in his time it should have been obvious that personalities change within a person over their lifetime, and that different people have different responses to certain kind of events. This indicates that at least part of it is not hardwired, thus not necessarily reliant on evolution. And if he thinks that animals are devoid of personality, I argue that he never had cats or dogs. And his closing comments on this section are just tedious reiterations of his obvious inability to grasp how evolution is proposed. Its rather sad to see him so passionately argue against a concept that he simply can’t grasp. Which is rather common in this debate. 37: Intellect, Emotions and Will Pretty much a combination of my responses to the above two points. By identifying these things as spiritual, he isn’t even allowing room for physical origins (although, to be fair, physical evidence for such things didn’t really exist in his time. Now we have bushels of it.) Further he ignores that some animals do display intellect, emotion and even willpower. He clearly hasn’t worked closely with animals. 38. Abstract reason (Now that we are successfully establishing lines of communication with primates and cetaceans, we are aware that they do have the capacity for reason. Higher species of birds are also apparently capable of it. The sophistication is somewhat less, but then so are their brains. Also, the developmental capacity of reason is molded by how the animal lives and the situations it has to deal with. Cetaceans don’t really have the ability to develop ways of building things, but since their power to manipulate the environment is so limited, this is hardly surprising. They can, however, solve puzzles and make intuitive assessments of the environment. Crows and their relatives can too.) But there is more to it than pure physiology. The basic capacity for reason is inherent within us, but the amount of fine-tuning we give it advances through the generations. And mostly, it happens in states of incremental development. Just as a child has to learn basic math to understand algebra, so too does a society have to learn how to harness fire before building an internal combustion engine. It took us a while to get the ball rolling, but the development of society spend it up immensely. And it continues to. 39: Conscience Sigh, here we go again. (Once again, explained by neurology, with new evidence being gathered almost daily.) And some animals do display signs of a conscience. He just ignores it flatly because he can’t let himself realize that almost everything that man does has an equivelent in the animal kingdom. And all of his questions about “why don’t animals have this trait”, even if they were true, could be reversed by asking “Why doesn’t man have wings?” Different creatures went on different paths, and adapted accordingly due to numerous factors, the gestalt of which were mostly personal. 40: Spirituality The short and quick explanation goes like this: Man has always been curious and clever, more so than most other animals. We also have an apparently distinctive trait: We don’t like letting questions go unanswered. In the childhood of humanity, few things were understood, and our ancestors could not abide that. Investigations were made, but we simply didn’t have the tools to answer all of our questions. So we started making them up. Religion served to comfort us, and allowed us to focus on the task at hand. It provided answers that made sense at the time, but generally only dealt with questions that didn’t actually NEED to be answered in order to guarantee survival of the species. It was an intellectual placeholder that made us more comfortable in our ignorance. But as we emerge into a less ignorant species, we come to realize just how incorrect some spiritual answers are, while others are inconclusive or can be dealt with just as easily in secular philosophy. Non-religious spirituality is pretty much just a warm fuzzy, but religion is frequently used to establish control over a population, and as support for power from religious leaders. It is a result of certain activities intrinsic to our species existence (although we now have some evidence that Neanderthals may have had religion as well!) 41: Hope for Immortality A sad weakness in our species that has nothing to do with evolution. 42: Sin, 43: Redemption Tools used to keep society in check. Fairly valuable concepts that actually have secular counterparts in law and personal interactions. But treated purely as religion, they do a better job of keeping religious leaders in power than in actually solving any of humanities problems. 44: Evolution aids infidelity and sin “Many evolutionists frankly declare that the purpose of evolution is to destroy belief in God, or his active control of his creation.” And if I were to meet such a person I would have to give them a stern talking to. Evolution is not a moral code nor an attack on moral codes. (The basis for morality is now known to be physical, but that still doesn’t mean that evolution discourages moral behavior. Indeed, quite the opposite, as morality is beneficial to the survival of social species, and so it is actually good to have it around. But we don’t need religion to implement it.) As far as his attacks on atheist societies, these would be just as relevant as attacks on theist societies who have gone to war over deities. Evil exists on both sides of the theistic fence. But evolutionary theory has little to say about it, as it is based on a specific realm of observation. It is a wholly different subject, and if the religious want to believe in evolution, they are more than welcome to. 45. Evolution Wars with Religion His heavily biased tirades and rhetoric are wearing thin. Once again, evolution doesn’t directly comment on religion. It simply makes observations. It doesn’t refute God, it simply says that if God does happen to exist, evolution is the tool he used to create the variety of life on Earth. Almost all of the earliest researchers in the subject were Christian, and most of them stayed that way. They didn’t see a conflict. Sure, it does seem to refute a literal interpretation of the Bible, but many Christians don’t take the Bible literally. They can get what they need out of it even if it is “merely” a collection of parables. This “war” we are seeing is waged by Creationists who are empowered only by emotion and fear that if the Bible is untrue, than so is God. The evolutionists don’t operate on fear, simply observation. 46: Camouflage of Terms: Evolution: As a basic English word, evolution simply means “change of time.” In the scientific usage, it is further refined to mean change in a specific direction. The Biological definition of evolution refers to change in species over time. And finally the Biological Theory of Evolution is the theory that attempts to explain how it happens. It is rather unfortunate that the English language has so many words with multiple definitions, but that is just how our language developed. And indeed, most creationists themselves can’t distinguish between all the words. Not our fault. Science in this context is basically short hand for Modern Naturalistic Science. And he still doesn’t know what a scientific theory is. No wonder he is so confused. Religion: (I don’t know what evolutionists in his time were saying, but the modern evolutionist is quick to point out that evolution is most certainly NOT religion. Indeed, we have to tell that to creationists themselves, repeatedly.) Laws and Nature: He’s the one giving credit to God for these things, not the evolutionist. Modernism and Liberal: Not really relevant to the subject Rationalist: Simply a person who relies on evidence and logic for their assertions, instead of faith. 47: What are We to Believe? That is up to the individual. Evolution provides evidence. It doesn’t have any direct comment on anything outside of that evidence. 48-50: A bunch of rhetoric and reiterations. 49 was just a wrap-up of the rest of the paper, 48 and 50 are just tactics for keeping people in line with Christianity. Not particularly relevant to this conversation. Appendix: Beating the Piltdown Man horse to death. I didn’t read the next article, as it is even older and appears to be fairly rhetorical. Yes I went through all of this very quickly and not in great detail. I am not interested in writing a book. But I will happily zoom in on specific subjects contained herein (but not every one please. That could take years!) Feel free to mention any specifics to focus our discussion :) Side: evolutionism
and then failed to present himself to those powers He presented those powers a while back and still people rejected Him. If He was to repeat this men would just search for another reason to say no to Him. Besides, why should He pander to our needs when He is our Creator and the Decider of all things? We have no right to order Him around. The only thing I have turned my back on is a highly suspect concept. You have turned your back on a lot more than that, my friend. We aren’t really debating anything at this point. This is true, we have veered off the original subject and begun to discuss matters that are in many ways irrelevant to the original debate. Here’s a challenge for you: go out and ask people what they believe about evolution. They don’t at all have to believe IN evolution (although it would be best to find people who do and people who don’t), just ask them what they know about it: What the definition of evolution is, what the evidence supporting it is, what the ACTUAL mechanism that runs it is, where the got their information from. I’ve been doing this informally off-and-on for awhile now and I’ve noticed that most people, regardless of their stance, have a hard time answering any of these questions, and most of them make only passing references to the actual molecular interactions involved. I suspect you will find similar responses. Exactly; they don't have evidence to support their inventions of evolution, haven't seen evidence for their invention and have a "hard time answering any of these questions" because they have no evidence or answers for that matter on evolution. Welcome to the right side, my friend, let me scooch over and make room for you on this cosy sofa whilst I hand you the Book of Truth. yours is horribly out of date. I can't believe you view that as a negative; since when did an old book become tripe? What, so famous authors from centuries ago should have their brilliant books burned simply because they are out of date? This is the most perposterous theory I have ever come across and is completely ridiculous. FYI, the bible is the best selling book and is ancient; example of one of thousands of old but still very popular books. Furthermore, you say mine is longer; so what? The longer the better; it provides much more explanations and manages to cover all the points which is something that your links and many more links I have been sent fails to do. If the Bible is completely true, than we can expect outside evidence of most of what it says, and there should be no such outside evidence that contradicts it. And if no outside evidence supports a notion (such as, for instance, Hell) than I don’t see any reason to believe in it. Okay, now let’s take a look a Rev. Williams’ arguments. The bible is completely true and the "outside evidence" is all around us for starters. The "outside evidence" supports the "notion" also, - if you have a hard time believing this then feel free to list the discrepancies you see and we can discuss this further as we have not got a decent thread of argument at this present time. Waits for critical response on my link :) P.S. If you take a while to reply, I understand and will wait patiently. Side: creationism
"Waits for critical response on my link :)" The response is there, although it only now occurred to me that it won't show up in your debate stream. For that I apologize, I was very tired by the time I got to the end of it. But I did explain how I was posting: The original post, counting this response and all of my responses to the article, exceeded the character limit for an argument. So I broke it into three parts. Part II is posted as a reply to the response you are disputing, and then Part III is a reply to part II. Unfortunately, this means you will have to jump to the debate, find the youngest one on the page and then expand a bunch of times to get through the debate to the responses in question. If I was smart I would have just put them all up as disputes to the one post, but I was too tired by that point to be smart :( My apologies. As far as the other points, we can get back to those later. For now lets just look at that article, my response to which partially highlights why it being out-of-date is detrimental when one is discussing a scientific concept. Side: evolutionism
The response is there, although it only now occurred to me that it won't show up in your debate stream. For that I apologize, I was very tired by the time I got to the end of it. But I did explain how I was posting: The original post, counting this response and all of my responses to the article, exceeded the character limit for an argument. So I broke it into three parts. Part II is posted as a reply to the response you are disputing, and then Part III is a reply to part II. Unfortunately, this means you will have to jump to the debate, find the youngest one on the page and then expand a bunch of times to get through the debate to the responses in question. If I was smart I would have just put them all up as disputes to the one post, but I was too tired by that point to be smart :( My apologies. No offence, but I'm not going to all that work wasting my time for my opposer; debating isn't about making the other person work hard just because you make mistakes. If you want to convince me of your argument, provide it here and here only and don't make me search and jump through debates and work my way through whatever you told me to - it doesn't work like that and besides, I have heaps of things to do each day therefore don't have the time for that. For now lets just look at that article, my response to which partially highlights why it being out-of-date is detrimental when one is discussing a scientific concept Again, you will have to state your argument here and here only. Furthermore, you musn't have read my previous post on the matter of 'out of date' so I will go out of my way and post my original comment here on your theory of out of date documents/books "I can't believe you view that as a negative; since when did an old book become tripe? What, so famous authors from centuries ago should have their brilliant books burned simply because they are out of date? This is the most perposterous theory I have ever come across and is completely ridiculous. FYI, the bible is the best selling book and is ancient; example of one of thousands of old but still very popular books. Furthermore, you say mine is longer; so what? The longer the better; it provides much more explanations and manages to cover all the points which is something that your links and many more links I have been sent fails to do." Besides, a document/study/book isn't out of date if it is logically valid. Food goes out of date when it becomes rotten or not fit for eating, the same goes for studies/books; its only out of date if its not fit for reading or proven false which really says a lot on the fact that the bible is still the best selling book. The matter of the study in my link being a few years out is completely irrelevant and the content is what you should focus on, not the age of the study/document. Whether it is scientific or not, the age should not rule it out when the content is logically rational and true. Side: creationism
Yeah, you would waste of all about 2 minutes (actually, you could also just look at my own debate stream, as both posts are still on the first page). It probably would have taken less time than you cut-and-pasting your old response and typing new lines, especially since my response already gave you my answer to your questions. All that being said, I guess I don't mind re-posting in since that's just two more points for my side of the debate. Check back in 5 minutes... Side: evolutionism
For some weird reason they didn't show up on my recent activity stream where I can view who has responded to my posts hence the reason for "I will just wait for your response" when I hadn't realized you'd sent it. When you typed up your post you implied the posts were muddled everywhere as if itd take me a long time to read through hence my reply saying I didn't have time for that. I now can see the posts and firstly I appreciate the time you have taken to type that up and the effort you are putting into this debate. I will begin typing up my replies and will get them to you asap :) Side: creationism
Well they both now exist on two places on that debate. The first copies wouldn't appear on your stream as I put them as replies on my own comment (don't ask me why. Tired me had a good reason for it, I'm sure.) So I copied and pasted them as direct responses to you. And do feel free to take your time. I sure took mine :) Side: creationism
Thats fine no worries. Judging by your previous post I assumed from the way you were describing it that they were muddled all over the place and I would have to jump from post to post or something; that I don't have time for. Anyhow, no worries they were clear and simple. Side: evolutionism
Part II: Right off the bat there’s a huge problem with this article: Its 86 years out-of-date. Unlike religion, science if a self-correcting and dynamic school of thought that changes in accordance with the evidence. In the time since this was written, we have gained considerable knowledge of the role of DNA, demonstrated and observed abiogenic formation of organic molecules, revised our “age of Earth” estimates from 200 million years to over 4.5 billion, discovered continental drift and much, much more. Many of his points are rendered obsolete by more recent and accurate observations. That being said, I undertook the challenge of focusing my attacks primarily on the shear logic and validity of his points as pure arguments regardless of current knowledge. This was more difficult, but even here I found many of his points to be lacking. Because the new information is important I will reference it, but only briefly, in terms of theories or key words, and put those points in (parenthesis). I will spend a little more time with the more logic-based arguments, although everything will be relatively brief and concise. Feel free to request elaboration and citation (I will not be providing links at this time, but ask for any that you want when you respond). Preamble to Part 1: “Any scientific theory or hypothesis must be proved first possible, then probable, then certain. To be a possible theory, it must be reconcilable with many facts; to be a probable theory, it must be reconcilable with many more; to be a certain and proven theory, it must be reconcilable with all the facts.” Before his first point he has already displayed a misunderstanding of what a scientific theory is. All theories are probable; none are meant to be facts or laws. They describe why facts and laws are the way they are, and are as strong as the supporting evidence. A theory can be disproved, to be sure. But proving it requires absolute knowledge of everything, and we don’t have that, so the work horse of the theory is the evidence. 1. Population of the World: (The population of the world hit 3 billion in 1960, then 6 billion right around 2000. This 40-year doubling time is about 1/4 as long as his estimate suggests it should be.) Population growth rates, and therefore doubling time, are reliant on multiple factors: carrying capacity, infant mortality and life expectancy being the 3 big ones. CC and LE were much lower in prehistoric times, while IM was much higher. These factors put us at subsistence level, massively hampering our growth rate. The development of agriculture helped raise CC massively, and the onset of civilization changed IM and LE in our favor. The idea that a specific group would line up with overall average isn’t too surprising since the 3 factors were roughly congruent throughout recorded history until the last century or two. However the math of prehistoric man would be quite different, (just as the math for the last century is also very different from the preceding 8000 or so years.) 2. Unity of Languages Some languages are tonal some are not. Some have completely different sentence structures than most others. Some rely heavily on sounds that are completely absent in others. On average, it takes 7-10 years for a person to master a language. This is unity? More directly to his point, languages and dialects within languages “evolve” at different rates for in different locations and for a wide variety of reasons, completely nullifying his constant rate conjecture. Yes, there was probably a common language, but not any time recently. 3 & 4: Religion and Place of the Origin of Man Both of these simply confirm a common origin of man. Evolution doesn’t refute that, in fact, it relies on that. He made the same point with languages, but at lest attempted to show how they couldn’t be so “unified” in such a long period of time. Here he doesn’t even try, so these points are irrelevant to his case and do nothing to dispute evolution. 5. Civilization Civilization developed independently of the Fertile Crescent in Sub-Saharan Africa, South America and China, and nomads were almost everywhere else. There was more than one center of civilization. Besides, nothing about evolution requires that there were many, although that is how it played out by circumstance. Again he’s making the rather odd assumption that evolutionists don’t believe in common ancestry, but common ancestry is at the heart of evolution. 6. Mendellian Inheritance Laws The pea plants in Mendel’s experiments didn’t change species, they simply expressed different alleles, and those varieties already existed in nature. He was doing artificial selection that helped him focus specific phenotypes into specific groups, which is pretty similar to why humans have different races but are all the same species. The idea that all of our recessive genes would kick in simultaneously and cause us to revert to a previous species demonstrates a big misunderstanding of Mendel’s experiment (and has since been proven to be impossible by genetics. We have also learned that some of the major evolutionary forces ((gene flow, genetic drift, mutation, random mating)) can extinguish some recessive genes, but this wasn’t known or widely believed by evolutionists in Rev. Williams’ time.) 7. Biometry Truth is, I don’t know enough about biostatistics to properly refute this or analyze the validity of it. So I’ll let this one stand. Onward 8. No New Species Now (Current estimate of age of life is about 3.8 billion years, not 60 million, massively altering calculations.) Much like some of the previous arguments, his obsession with averages totally ignores reality. Different lines evolve in different amounts of time, (and different periods and geographical locales foster different rates of evolution) so his average and doubling times are useless in this application. Also the idea that not a single new species has been named is not supported. We are constantly finding new species of plants, animal and fungus, and this has always been the case. Although I grant that very few of these are brand new organisms, his premise is based on a huge fallacy. And even by his time there were a few recorded cases of speciation. (And many more since then.) 9. There is no 9. 10. Age of the Earth (Geology couldn’t really do anything right until the Continental Drift Theory was incorporated. Almost every single theory he mentions, the ones he refutes and the ones he supports have all been proven wrong by modern geology. Same goes with the Sun’s age, which is supportable by modern astronomy.) Even if his numbers were correct, the assumption that because the amount of time it takes to form a river is less than age of the Earth points to a younger Earth is invalid. Surface features, especially rivers, change over time and even the geologists of his time knew this. 11. Geology and History This is a random collection of arguments. Some I have already responded to. As far as the others: Piltdown man: we know and admit that this was a hoax. Christians have also manufactured some hoaxes of their own. If it Piltdown the only option we had, this would be damning. But there were a few others in his time . (Pithecanthropus is now understood to be a population of homo erectus. Many more specimens of this population have been found. Likewise, many new specimens of Neanderthals and Homo heidelbergensis have been uncovered.) The number of remains for “missing link” species was automatically lowered by his presumption that most of them were extinct apes, thus relying on bias. (Plus, many, many new ones have been uncovered.) "In the year 1806, the French Institute enumerated not less than 80 geological theories which were hostile to the Scriptures; but not one of these theories is held today." Irrelevant. In science, progress is attained through airing out all possibilities and discarding the incorrect ones. Failures of the past speak nothing of the present. Unless of course, one doesn’t adapt one’s theories in the face of new information, like religion. Also, this comment was taken completely out of context, as it was said as a preface to an argument supporting uniformitarianism. “All the bacilli remain the same microscopic species, even those too microscopic to be seen or isolated.” If you can’t see it, you can’t know this. (We now can see them changing, both genetically and morphologically.) (There are plenty other archaeopteryx fossils now, as well as few other dino-bird transitionals. They have several skeletal features in common with birds, but also many that no birds have, but some dinosaurs do.) 12. Geographical distribution (Continental drift.) 13. God not Absent or Inactive It is funny how, after extolling that God is all-powerful, he seems to imply that God is not capable of using evolution as a process. Later, he confuses scientific law with the more colloquial usage of the word. The remainder of this section translates as “Life is complex and impressive; therefore God.” Which is only an answer to someone who is too lazy to investigate. 14. Chance or Design? More of the same. (The eye argument is rendered useless in the face of the fact that many creatures get by just fine and dandy without eyes that are as complex as ours. Several engineering companies use evolutionary theory in computer programs to design, “by chance”, structures and systems that are more efficient than those that human designers have made. Just like in nature, they quickly discard the poor ones and watch the remaining ones improve gradually over generations, but with computer programs that we now have, we can sort through billions of years of evolution in a few days.) 15. “Evolution Atheistic” More of his “God of the Gaps” drivel. But more to the point: evolution defies strict literal interpretations of the Bible, but so do many Christians. Many theologians have pointed out that many sections of the Bible, especially the OT, were obvious parables meant to give a description of somewhat abstract concepts. Further, many were borrowed from pre-existing beliefs. But aside from contradicting the Bible, evolution says absolutely nothing about God. All of naturalistic science says “no comment” when God comes up. If some Christians and atheists decide that evolution puts God out of the picture, than they are creating a false dichotomy that evolution itself is not related to. 16. Brute Descent Impossible The brain growth math, once again ignores the fact that different species evolve at different rates. Numerous factors dictate the speed and nature of the evolutionary process, and each species responds to these factors in unique ways. 17. Eight Impassable Gulfs Actually, he lists 9. This guy really doesn’t do well with the number 9 apparently. (1: It has been proven repeatedly that organic molecules can be formed in numerous different ways an are abundant in space. Regardless, this isn’t evolution, its abiogenesis.) (2-8: All documented to some extent or the other in the fossil record.) (We know now that there was MUCH more time available to pass these gulfs than he presumes.) 9: Existence of “soul” never proven. 18: Ancestral Monkeys and Apes (Common ancestor now known.) It is very clear in this passage that the author finds the idea of man being a primate to be highly unpleasant, and he makes no attempt to cover up his bias. But just because you don’t like what science is telling you, you don’t just toss it out the window. If a doctor tells you that you have an incurable disease, you wouldn’t like that either, but that dislike doesn’t make it untrue. He specifically asks “where is the comfort or gain?” But evolution is not about comfort, and the gain is in the attainment of learning, just like all science. As far as why monkeys and their ilk are not currently becoming human, we shouldn’t expect them to. Each line ended up on its own path, with separate environmental factors and sets of DNA, and the sum total of adaptations aren’t expected to create the same result. It is like asking, “why haven’t all cats become tigers?” But a tiger wouldn’t do as well in a lion’s environment as it does in its own home, and has accrued numerous personal adaptations from which the others build. (We now know how this works genetically), but this was shown in the morphological changes already observed in his time. Then he goes on to cherry-pick some external differences and completely ignores that we share numerous traits with primates that are only found in primates. Yes there are differences, but that’s like saying that because my cousin is a short red-head and I am a tall blonde, we can’t be related, even though most people who see us together see the familial resemblance with ease. 19: Staggering speculation. Well religion has some pretty staggering speculations itself. But, I find it funny that the things he’s looking for (like a plant cross-breeding with an animal) are no less bizarre and speculative than what he’s fighting against, and show his apparent ignorance in what evolution actually is. He seems to have filled in the gaps in his research with far-fetched notions intended to point out how ludicrous he finds the concept to be, without realizing that the evolutionists do not support these notions anyway. This is common with creationists, but not exactly supportive of their points once one actually researches the premise. 20: Sex Some of his information is actually correct, but he falls flat when he assumes that sexual reproduction occurred in one fell swoop, or that the animals just invented it. It happened in a process of refining, some of which was kept on by certain lines, others were altered and promoted within those lines, and still others failed and the line went extinct. Which is precisely what has been argued since Darwin’s day, our good Reverend simply willfully ignores this to justify his points of dispute. 21: Man hairless and tailless: (Phrenology was heavily disputed in his time, and has since been totally discredited.) Further, he seems to be totally ignorant of the fact that some lines are more prone to baldness than others, that some men do indeed have disgustingly hairy backs, and that apes in general have declining tails compared to arboreal monkeys. Also, even in his time there was the known phenomena of people occasionally being born with tails. Side: evolutionism
First off, I don't have time to dispute major posts like this as I am a full-time working girl therefore can only get on my computer at periodic intervals to check and reply to posts with a decent sized reply, but nothing like the length of these ones. For this reason, I will reply to only a couple parts and like you said this will help us focus on our actual debate as we have not one at this present moment. Furthermore, since you are arguing with Williams, there is difficulty here for me to put in my say when I cannot speak for such an intellectual man. What I will do is create an argument using one or more of the titles you have listed and from there on we can have our argument and include the reply you presented to his point. Firstly, before we get into anything deep, I would just like to ask one question. The debates here are often trying to put down Creationism and say it is nought but a fantasy story that makes folk cosy inside, but nobody actually attempts to disprove it other than mentioning supposed 'discrepancies' in Genesis. I was even sent a link and the 'discrepancies' were listed and they were absoluletly balderdash and took literally two seconds to disprove. However, my question is this: you seem so dedicated to your belief in evolution, so I am wondering if you can disprove creationism? If you cannot do this, then why rule it out when your own belief is said to have "much evidence" yet that is not actually presented? Moving on, since we have been batting back and forth without a main argument, I will just jump in here and present one then perhaps another one and you can choose to reply to whichever one you are drawn to most. For the sake of being interesting, I will make my first point one that includes my own faith: God not Absent or Inactive Your points here were that he was "too lazy to investigate" and whilst my opinion differs here, I can insert my own views/opinions/beliefs. This point is one that many atheists in conversation with a believer in attempt to 'prove' His non-existance. This is both stupid and never works on a Christian with faith as faith is about believing in Him yet not seeing Him with the eye. However, I can understand when it comes to the individual who questions everything and disbelieves for this matter and of course many others relating to 'lack of evidence' etc. The point here is, if He did present Himself like He did in biblical times, men would still find an excuse to reject Him like they did back then. Men simply use this excuse as an escape and if He did present Himself to us, wouldn't that defeat the purpose of faith? Furthermore, God is under no obligation to present Himself to His creation - perhaps similar to how you get some bosses in the workplace whom are never seen by his employees due to his status. The second part of your point; "inactivity" is completely false altogether, and again, this would be difficult to discuss with an atheist due to the fact that I cannot point my finger and show you what God had just done that moment. There are numorous ways that God works in peoples lives and I will use myself as an example; He guides me, disciplines me, listens to me. If you would like more examples, all you have to do is open the bible and see His works, that is if you are willing to learn. Hypothetically, if you were to look at all this and say 'but that isn't evidence, I can't see that' then why don't you 'look' at your own beliefs because you certainly can't see that can you? You don't see monkeys evolving into sinful men and you certainly don't see the evidence for such an event ever taking place. However, before I say more, I want to view your response to this point and your views and we can go from there with our argument. Secondly, the point I want to speak about now is the something you stated under the topic of the age of the world. You stated this: "Current estimate of age of life". This I cannot understand; you believe in something that you have no evidence for, can see no evidence for, and something that keeps changing its argument through the years? How can you be so devoted to something that is so unbelievably inconsistent? Yet you atheists believe that we are the dumb ones for believing something we "cannot see". Please, explain to me the point you have in believing something that a) is invented by men b) no real evidence is presented c) the "facts" are alterered throughout the years d) there is no evidence for!? You cannot seriously believe that my belief is the blind one here. I am intrigued to hear your explanation on this so please do go into depth. Lastly, I do appreciate your lengthly posts but I simply do not have the time to disprove it all and besides you are not arguing with me you are arguing with Williams and like I said before I cannot speak for such an intellectual man. Perhaps you will decide to respond to both of my posts but I am running late so I have to run. Side: creationism
Well, I certainly wasn't expecting you to respond to each point. That's essentially 50 debates in one. The only reason I responded to so many of his points was as a challenge to myself, and neither of us have the time to keep up to those levels. The two you chose are just fine. But first: "However, my question is this: you seem so dedicated to your belief in evolution, so I am wondering if you can disprove creationism?" There are a number of pieces of evidence falsifying creationism. Here are two of the simpler ones: Light speed: If all of the Universe were created at the same time, for example we will say 6,000 years ago, then the light from all of the stars that are more than 6,000 light years away would not have reached us yet. The night sky would be almost blank. Law of Superposition and Principle of Fossil Succession- These are straightforward geologic principles, you only need a little information to see how they work: Almost all fossils are found in sedimentary rocks; the processes that create metamorphic and igneous rocks destroy fossils. Sedimentary rocks are created when other rocks are broken down into pieces, laid out in an area and lithify (become new varieties of rock) through various processes. Often this leads to sedimentary layers, which are found all over the planet, and account for most of the outer crust, especially on land. Prior to lithification, they are essentially fields of sand/soil/dirt, and due to gravity they spread out in flat, horizontal layers. As time goes on, the new layers build on top of pre-existing ones, thus the oldest are at the bottom, the youngest are at the top. This is known as the Law of superposition, and is a relative dating method. Unlike absolute dating methods, relative dating don't tell you when things happened, but they do show the sequence of events. Now we come to the principle of fossil succession. Fossils are found throughout the strata. Here's the thing, certain fossils appear in certain strata, having died in whatever sedimentary layer was on top at the time. And all over the world, we find the same progression of fossil types. More recent strata show life forms identical or very similar to what we see now, go a little further back and they disappear, replaced by dinosaurs, and a few basal birds, small mammals, etc. Go back far enough before that, and you don't see any land forms at all, just aquatic life. And follow the aquatic life far enough back and it gets smaller and simpler. The key here is that there are never exceptions. We don't find Permian fossils in Holocene strata. We don't find land animals in the Cambrian strata. If we started finding humans in strata mixed with hallucigenia fossils, or maybe a polar bear next to a stegosaurus, then evolutionary theory as we know it would have to be scrapped. On the other hand, if creationism were true, we would see all life appearing at once, and continuing on in a mixed-up unpredictable pattern throughout all of the strata. There's more, but let's see how you respond to these two first. "This point is one that many atheists in conversation with a believer in attempt to 'prove' His non-existance." Yes, many atheists do that, but not I. I don't claim that God does not exist, I claim that the evidence offered to prove his existence is faulty. I don't entirely rule out the possibility, but I do patiently explain that there may be other explanations for observed phenomena, and the only way to rule out the alternatives (as well as possibly come upon new ones that were never thought of before) is through thorough and honest examination. Humanity hadn't been properly equipped to conduct truly thorough investigations on most phenomena until the past few centuries, but as we do, as we take closer looks and more precise measurements, many processes that could once only be explained through conflicting supernatural descriptions turn up to have perfectly naturalistic causes. God's necessity has yet to be identified. And if he is active, than he is using the processes that we see to create. But that is simply one possibility, and one that is not decisively present in the evidence, hence why I do not believe in him. "Furthermore, God is under no obligation to present Himself to His creation" Than I see no reason why I should be under obligation to believe in him. Its not like the unseen bosses in a company; if it is important to me to find out who they are, I can get their names, find out what city they work in, etc. And if it comes right down to it, I can use this information to see them face-to-face, maybe even watch them work. God has never given me that opportunity. "Hypothetically, if you were to look at all this and say 'but that isn't evidence, I can't see that' then why don't you 'look' at your own beliefs because you certainly can't see that can you?" I don't really have beliefs that can't be investigated so that's not really a problem for me. "You don't see monkeys evolving into sinful men and you certainly don't see the evidence for such an event ever taking place." I've already shown you a list of observed cases of speciation. We've seen it dozens of times. True, we aren't going to see a monkey turn into a man, because each individual case is a one-time deal. Nothing in evolution says that given enough time, any creature will become man-like in shape and capability, nor does it say that there is some archetype within each clade that all other species will gradually morph into. However, the various factors that guide evolution interface with organisms in observable, predictable ways, and man, monkey, and all other life that we have tested and observed has the marks of evolution in their DNA and in their morphology. So a few cases of speciation (and due to the time involved, we only get a few to observe in even great spans of time) is all we need. As far as your next point (age of Earth estimates), I really want to get to it, but I fear this post is already too long, and many points have been presented. So for brevity and focus, I will skip it for now, but I will happily respond to it if you wish :) Side: evolutionism
Your post is not addressing the two main points I made in response to your post. You go on to speak about the law of superposition and principle of fossil succession; this was not one of my points. You take a couple of sentences away from beneath the main points but this is not a sufficient reply as I have made many more points that should be addressed before progressing onto further topics. The two points I provided were "God not absent or inactive" and "age estimate of the earth". The agreement was that you would debate one or two of these points. I am not sure why you have changed course. You provided an extensive list and I replied to it choosing two of the points so that we could focus our debate on something as opposed to major posts that focus on every aspect which is just too time-consuming. There is no point in my replying to your post as you are yet to respond to mine on my points. Once you have done this, our debate can begin and focus on one/two of the points. I will be looking forward to your reply addressing the stated points in my previous post. Side: creationism
First: "You go on to speak about the law of superposition and principle of fossil succession; this was not one of my points." No, but it was part of the answer to your question. You clearly asked me a question: "However, my question is this: you seem so dedicated to your belief in evolution, so I am wondering if you can disprove creationism?" Both the geologic principles and the brief section about lightspeed were answers to your question. If you don't want a question answered, why ask? I didn't change course, I followed the one that you set. After that I did respond to your "God not present or inactive" point, directly and in a reasonable amount of detail, responding to four different lines that you used in that point. You made it clear that I was not under the obligation to answer both. The only reason I didn't go into "age estimate of the Earth" was because you started your whole reply by stating that you are a working girl who doesn't have time to respond to massive posts. It was already getting long, so I pulled it in short, out of respect to you. But I actually wanted to respond to it, so let's go ahead and do it: Please, explain to me the point you have in believing something that a) is invented by men-Cars were invented by men. Airplanes. Computers. Antibiotics. I believe in them because I've seen them work. Believe it or not, men (and women) are pretty clever, especially when they turn down the volume on faith and start thinking objectively. b) no real evidence is presented- over 40 types of radiometric dating which consistently cross-verify each other. Since each method uses a different half-life, they couldn't get the same result if one is wrong. They have also been cross-checked on the short-term with known historic events, ice core samples, tree rings, etc. Cross-referencing known continent rates of movement to identify the supercontinent formations clearly seen in strata all across the world, showing a minimum of hundreds of millions of years. Current concentration of atmosphere could not build up in a mere 6000 years, and oxidation of iron rich rock down to a specific point clearly shows a long period of time where there was no oxygen in the atmosphere. Not to mention Helioseismic calculations and the lightspeed scenario I mentioned in the last post. c) the "facts" are alterered throughout the years-As time goes on, science gets much more precise. The old estimates get revised as better technology and more data comes in. The whole reason the estimates change is because science self-corrects when more evidence appears that contradicts old assertions, religion generally refuses to do so. We know we don't know everything, but we learn more every year. d) there is no evidence for-See B. Have any evidence supporting an Earth of 6-10 thousand years? Side: evolutionism
Please, explain to me the point you have in believing something that a) is invented by men-Cars were invented by men. Airplanes. Computers. Antibiotics. I believe in them because I've seen them work. Believe it or not, men (and women) are pretty clever, especially when they turn down the volume on faith and start thinking objectively. True, but you misunderstand my point; why believe in something that men created yet cannot prove? You can prove airplanes, computers, antibiotics because they are there in front of you yet you cannot prove what they claim on evolution etc. Why do you still believe what they say? To be perfectly honest, you clearly do have faith as you have faith in men's words yet do not see any evidence for their claims yet still believe. no real evidence is presented- over 40 types of radiometric dating which consistently cross-verify each other. Since each method uses a different half-life, they couldn't get the same result if one is wrong. They have also been cross-checked on the short-term with known historic events, ice core samples, tree rings, etc. Cross-referencing known continent rates of movement to identify the supercontinent formations clearly seen in strata all across the world, showing a minimum of hundreds of millions of years. Current concentration of atmosphere could not build up in a mere 6000 years, and oxidation of iron rich rock down to a specific point clearly shows a long period of time where there was no oxygen in the atmosphere. Not to mention Helioseismic calculations and the lightspeed scenario I mentioned in the last post. Have you seen all this raw data? Have you managed to access the real evidence and see all this for yourself? Or have you just read all of this in books over a period of time and in scientists biographies and textbooks? ) the "facts" are alterered throughout the years-As time goes on, science gets much more precise. The old estimates get revised as better technology and more data comes in. The whole reason the estimates change is because science self-corrects when more evidence appears that contradicts old assertions, religion generally refuses to do so. We know we don't know everything, but we learn more every year. So basically, each time something new comes to light, the previous estimate was false which means that the estimate you have in your head at this moment of the age of the earth is most likely false. What an interesting belief you have; its not only false but also inconsistent and comes from men who fail to present the "raw data" that backs up their whole system. Here is a challenge; prove to me using real evidence that the world is the amount of years old that you believe it to be. Prove to me the age and, if you can, show me the raw data that proved this to you in the first place. Whilst the age of the earth is not a major plank in my platform of beliefs, I believe it to be young. There is no scientific measurement of the earth's age whatsoever - furthermore, scientists come up with a new estimate all the time and expect us to believe the newest guess. I do not believe that I have stated at any time in our debate that the earth is 6 - 10 thousand years so I am unsure as to where you have accquired this statistic. However, tell me simply where you have accquired the evidence for your beliefs, please. Side: creationism
"why believe in something that men created yet cannot prove?" Do you believe that an antibiotic or medication that you have never used does not work because you have never personally seen it work? That electron microscopes do not work because you haven't seen the "raw data" that explains the principles on which the device was designed? How easy is it for you get this so called raw data that explains how your computer codes information in pulses and sends it out of your country to a satellite which beams it down to my server and comes up on my screen? I'm not talking the principles that explain how all of this is possible. The principles are what I've been showing you. But you doggedly refuse them if they don't coincide with your own beliefs and experiences. You haven't provided any raw data of your own. That paper you sent me covered a lot of topics but never once showed how this information was confirmed. And that Bible of yours is even worse. No raw data there, no way outside of its own claims to show that it is anything but an "invention of man". You have provided nothing that stands up to your own critiques. Nothing. "yet you cannot prove what they claim on evolution etc." You cannot prove anything that Rev. Williams claimed. That the Bible claimed. I have shown you links from several different sources and fields, have used logic, have given you countless keywords that you can research on your own. If we were having a discussion about something that didn't disprove the Bible, say geography or economic systems, I doubt you would be so demanding. "you clearly do have faith as you have faith in men's words yet do not see any evidence for their claims yet still believe." To an extent this is right. Do you have a clue how many things are going on in the world every day? I don't have the time to watch every recorded session of congress, or be in the room for their untelevised meetings, so I can't help but have a little faith in news reports concerning their decisions assuming it holds up to the scrutiny that I do have the time to put in to it. I can't be in the room every time my bosses discuss my work so I can only have faith that they are accurately dictating their assessments of me when the talk to me. Economics, food preparation, medicine, my cat's activities when I am absent, these are all things that I have to ultimately take on some degree of faith when I come to conclusions about them based on the limited, but available data. The difference between my faith and that which you display is that when appropriate, logically sound evidence from multiple unassociated sources tells me that my beliefs are wrong, I am willing to adapt. My faith in evolution is not blind, it is based on a vast amount of evidence presented to me and it stands up not only to my own scrutiny, but to every attack I've ever seen made against it. But your arguments supporting the Bible are based on your refusal to accept that you have been conned, that virtually nothing in it is confirmable by science, history or logic; that several parts of it have actually been disproved, that the only reason to hold on so strongly to it is that it appeals to your heart. "Have you seen all this raw data? Have you managed to access the real evidence and see all this for yourself? Or have you just read all of this in books over a period of time and in scientists biographies and textbooks?" Actually, I have run the numbers for a radiometric confirmation, but no I didn't collect the sample or have anything to do with determining the established 238U half-life. But I have been actively pursuing education for a while now, seeing how everything fits together across disciplines, I know how many scientists there are out there and how thoroughly they examine each others work, I have seen friends go through the very frustrating and difficult process of peer review and have consulted with and learned from researchers who have made original contributions to their fields. You, are you an experienced historian who has seen confirmation of Biblical events? Have you ever done a biology lab or a geology practical? Have you ever logically analyzed the discrepancies between the world's religions using objective methodologies? I can't say I qualify for the first question, but I have experience with the other two. How much time have you put in? "...the previous estimate was false which means that the estimate you have in your head at this moment of the age of the earth is most likely false." First, the amount of change has declined drastically as research has improved. The most up to date estimate is 4.567 billion years, in which about two million years were added. This is nothing compared to the range of estimates presented in Rev. Williams' time. We've gotten a lot better. And the estimate might be updated again tomorrow, but as long as the evidence is sound and peer-reviewed I have no problem updating to work alongside the best evidence. Religion does have this problem. They not only have confidence that what they were told was true, but they are actually opposed to in-depth analysis of the data or adapting to the ever advancing world (hmm, maybe they don't have so much confidence after all). "What an interesting belief you have;" What? The belief that we don't know everything, but we learn more every year? How is this any different from growing in knowledge from child to adult? You yourself almost certainly had wild notions as a child that you later had to correct as you grew up and learned more about the world around you and became more mature. Human society does the exact same thing, except for those parts of it who are afraid to admit that they might have been wrong. As far as your challenge: not unless you can do it (to confirm whatever age you like). I have already provided link after link, already dumped numerous hours into a very long article, and watched you try to debunk them using standards you can't live up to. The information is out there, but there is no point showing it to you if you so stubbornly refuse to accept it just because you made up your mind years ago. As far as 6-10 thousand years ago, that is the age range provided by every young Earth creationist I've ever heard of and is based around Biblical "evidence". If you are arguing for a young, created, Earth that is older than that, you'd be possibly the first one I have heard of. Side: evolutionism
Do you believe that an antibiotic or medication that you have never used does not work because you have never personally seen it work? If my doctor perscribes me medication, I am always unsure of it till it takes effect if it does. Sure, I might believe it works if I have heard it to be successful but this does not in any way relate to evolution. Stop giving examples of things that do not relate to this and talk about what we are debating; evolution. You have provided nothing that stands up to your own critiques. Nothing. Oh, and you have? All you do is give examples of things that have nothing to do with men evolving from apes yet you believe it somehow strengthens your argument? Wrong. If you want to convince me that I evolved from an ape, give me evidence, not examples of medication. That paper you sent me covered a lot of topics but never once showed how this information was confirmed A little thing called logic that has a suprisingly impressive effect when used correctly. I have shown you links from several different sources and fields, have used logic, have given you countless keywords that you can research on your own. You have sent me men making claims that they have no evidence for; a complete waste of my time. If we were having a discussion about something that didn't disprove the Bible, say geography or economic systems, I doubt you would be so demanding. In what way am I being demanding? We are having a debate therefore for you to convince me of something I need sufficient evidence that will make this happen so if that is what you call demanding then fair enough but I call it debating. What I said: ""you clearly do have faith as you have faith in men's words yet do not see any evidence for their claims yet still believe."" What you said in response: "To an extent this is right". WOOT WOOT = progress!! Do you have a clue how many things are going on in the world every day? I don't have the time to watch every recorded session of congress, or be in the room for their untelevised meetings, so I can't help but have a little faith in news reports concerning their decisions assuming it holds up to the scrutiny that I do have the time to put in to it. I can't be in the room every time my bosses discuss my work so I can only have faith that they are accurately dictating their assessments of me when the talk to me. Economics, food preparation, medicine, my cat's activities when I am absent, these are all things that I have to ultimately take on some degree of faith when I come to conclusions about them based on the limited, but available data LOL, this does not justify a blind belief in something, my friend. If you have faith in men's words yet do not see any evidence for their claims yet still believe, this is blind faith and false. Your cats activities and untelevised meetings have absolutely nothing to do with this; stop using examples that in no way relate. My faith in evolution is not blind, it is based on a vast amount of evidence presented to me and it stands up not only to my own scrutiny, but to every attack I've ever seen made against it. Your faith in evolution is blind as you believe claims yet see no evidence for them, and it is not standing up very well at this moment. But your arguments supporting the Bible are based on your refusal to accept that you have been conned, that virtually nothing in it is confirmable by science, history or logic; that several parts of it have actually been disproved, that the only reason to hold on so strongly to it is that it appeals to your heart. They are based on no such thing; my argument supporting the Bible is based on God, His Word and logic. If it is not confirmable by science, history or logic then disprove God to me. You will fail, we both know this. several parts of it have actually been disproved Show me them. Actually, I have run the numbers for a radiometric confirmation, but no I didn't collect the sample or have anything to do with determining the established 238U half-life. But I have been actively pursuing education for a while now, seeing how everything fits together across disciplines, I know how many scientists there are out there and how thoroughly they examine each others work, I have seen friends go through the very frustrating and difficult process of peer review and have consulted with and learned from researchers who have made original contributions to their fields. So, in other words, no, you have not seen any of the raw data or evidence and have in fact just been "conned" by the words of fools. Interesting. You, are you an experienced historian who has seen confirmation of Biblical events? Have you ever done a biology lab or a geology practical? Have you ever logically analyzed the discrepancies between the world's religions using objective methodologies? I can't say I qualify for the first question, but I have experience with the other two. How much time have you put in? Experienced historian... depends how one would define this. In my own definition, yes I have studied history in great detail but have yet to cover many aspects but still will be learning new facts till the day I die as will most historians great and small. I have conducted experiences in the lab, most people have at some point in their life whether it be at their work, field trips or in high school. I have analyzed some of the discrepancies between world religions and have disproved the alleged discrepancies in the book of Genesis. As for the last part, how much time do I put in to what? Learning? Science? My faith? Praying? What exactly are you talking about when you ask this? First, the amount of change has declined drastically as research has improved. The most up to date estimate is 4.567 billion years, in which about two million years were added. This is nothing compared to the range of estimates presented in Rev. Williams' time. We've gotten a lot better. And the estimate might be updated again tomorrow, but as long as the evidence is sound and peer-reviewed I have no problem updating to work alongside the best evidence. Religion does have this problem. They not only have confidence that what they were told was true, but they are actually opposed to in-depth analysis of the data or adapting to the ever advancing world (hmm, maybe they don't have so much confidence after all). Lol, that in no way disproves my statement. You only further prove that scientists are changing the estimate over and over again which does in fact mean that the estimate you have in your head right now is false. As for Christians, the more logical ones, we are not opposed to new data in any way. The majority of us welcome it as it contribues hugely to our health and lifestyles. However, we don't welcome lies such as the world suddenly banging into existance and our bodies evolving from apes - like I said, some of us are logical :). What? The belief that we don't know everything, but we learn more every year? No, its interesting because you believe in something that men tell you and write to you in textbooks. Its interesting because you have the very thing that we Christians are falsly accused by you atheists for having; blind faith. I think we can now see who has the blind faith. As far as your challenge: not unless you can do it (to confirm whatever age you like). I have already provided link after link, already dumped numerous hours into a very long article, and watched you try to debunk them using standards you can't live up to. The information is out there, but there is no point showing it to you if you so stubbornly refuse to accept it just because you made up your mind years ago. In my books, that is someone afraid or unable to accept the challenge. Providing "link after link" does not mean a thing other than you have found someone else to do your dirty work for you. I only provided my link when I was asked to by numorous debaters. I believe in doing my own debating rather than leaning on others. Like I said before, I still challenge you to use real evidence and prove to me that the world is the amount of years old you believe it to be. :) you have been conned If this is so, then I have to admit that I am happier being conned by God than conned by foolish men. No one is conning me though, my fellow debater. No one. No matter what way you look at it, you are falling further than me here and I would reach out to stop you falling past me but I'm not sure that you want me to. Side: creationism
True, but you misunderstand my point; why believe in something that men created yet cannot prove? You mean like religion? You can prove airplanes, computers, antibiotics because they are there in front of you yet you cannot prove what they claim on evolution The need to constantly develop new antibiotics, is proof that the processes of evolution are an everyday reality. Side: evolutionism
You mean like religion? Ahh, deliberately misunderstanding again I see - not so smart, fellow debater. Not so smart at all. No, I mean like EVOLUTION. They need to constantly develop new antibiotics, is proof that the processes of evolution are an everyday reality Airplanes, computers and antibiotics does not prove that men evolved from apes, LOL. Furthermore, what has your statement got to do with the statement of mine that you emboldened. Lastly, I state again, I will not debate you as I have done so before and found that you are an ignorant ass who makes debating a drag. Fare thee well. Side: creationism
Ahh, deliberately misunderstanding again I see - not so smart, fellow debater. Not so smart at all. No, I mean like EVOLUTION. I know perfectly well what you meant. I just find it amusing that the reason you cited for your doubt of Evolution, more aptly applies to religion which you accept whole heartedly. Airplanes, computers and antibiotics does not prove that men evolved from apes Well, I don't know about aircraft, and computers, but developing new antibiotics would only ever be necessary if viruses continued to gain resistances through the process of natural selection. I will not debate you as I have done so before and found that you are an ignorant ass who makes debating a drag. Well, If you want to watch from the sidelines as I dismantle each of your arguments in front of you, that's your choice. Side: evolutionism
Part III: 22. Hybrids (Viable hybrids are indeed rare. Generally this actually helps promote speciation by forcing the species to go off in different directions. There are a few exceptions, especially in ring species, where new formation of species does occur, but this is one of the more rare methods of speciation and only works if the closely related species haven’t been fully separated.) As far as the differentiation between Kingdom, genera, phyla, etc., these are all rather arbitrary terms created by man for the purpose of organization. There is no separate process for each one, the main delineations iare time and the concentration of factors molding the specific group. (If we needed to have separate methods for each level, we would also need separate sets of DNA for each level, but one singular set is all we get and ends up being all we need. As AronRa says, “If it is possible to walk 20 feet, it is possible to walk 20 miles.” The difference is in the time taken and the change in scenery.) 23. The instinct of Animals His quoting of Darwin is not well carried out here. He basically just bulldozes past the points made by Darwin with the cry of “but it is so impressive what honeybees do,” a point which Darwin himself concedes. But once again, nature being impressive is not really relevant here. Life works, and evolution particularly favors the special traits that provide advantage, fine-tuning them over time. Also, he seems to supporting Lamarck’s view of adaptation, something which had already been thoroughly discredited by the 1920s. (A fair amount of genetic research has not only shown how animal instincts evolve, but even the more complex variations of instinct displayed by humans.) 24. Special Creation: Genesis 1 Lots of problems here, but as you said, we are talking about evolution. We can come back to this if we want to debate the veracity of the Bible. For now, I will move on, but am happy to return to this later, or in a different debate. 25. Analogy; Mathematics, Laws “There is no evolution in the science of mathematics. There is no change or growth or development.” Apparently he has never heard of Calculus. That is EXACTLY what calculus demonstrates, and the reason why all scientific fields employ calculus is because they need to in order to make proper sense of the evidence. And those logarithms that he so loves turn up heavily in calculus. As far as physical laws, yes those themselves don’t change. But their presence creates a very wide range of possibility depending on what they are being applied to, while simultaneously setting certain boundaries for every object. The rule of cause and affect determine which of the finite realm of possibilities is expressed within a certain object in certain conditions. The interactions between various cause-effect relationships change the range of possibilities continuously, and frequently in a temporal fashion. Everything that we have ever examined, even the universe itself, has shown signs of change, and ripples of change radiate out from all events, influencing the nature of anything in contact. There is not a single field of science that would work if this principle wasn’t true, and even religions employ this concept to varying degrees. EXISTENCE IS CHANGE. 26. Desperate arguments Every field has people in it that say ludicrous things that are not supportable by evidence. These statements can be ridiculed and put to bed, while our attention focuses on the more sensible and supported arguments made. One form of “desperate argument” is to imply that the lunatic fringe speaks for the whole, which is all that Rev. Williams is trying to do here. 27. 20 Objections Admitted So many of these are not linked to their specific sources, most our out-of-date, and at least of few are heavily out of context. This is called quote mining, and is a devious ploy used to attempt to add credibility to one’s claims. I have already invested too much time in this, and am barely more than half-way done, to respond to each of these, especially since I don’t know the context in which most were said. Part II: Evidence answered 29: Paleontology, 30: Confessed collapse of “Proof.” I already mentioned the updates in research concerning these species, and admitted that Piltdown was a fraud. No need to go back into this for now. (Much has changed in this field over the last 8+ decades.) 31: Pictures in Caverns It is true that these pictures are crude, that exact dating in some places is almost impossible, and that speculation is required to interpret what they mean. I don’t have any denial of that. But it is very weak and rarely used supporting evidence at best, so I don’t have any problems letting it stand. 32: Vestigial organs. He once again ignores the possibility of change that is so intrinsic in evolution. If he didn’t so adamantly refuse this notion, he would see the answer right there in the theory. Basically, part of the quality of an organ is related to the environmental factors involved. People and animals that descend from Himalayan stock have slightly different (more efficient) lungs than those whose ancestry has always been at or near sea level. In this case, the specific organ itself changed, and that’s pretty much the end of the story. But this isn’t always how it works. Significant changes over time and geography can affect the functionality of certain organs, particularly as full speciation occurs. Its basically a change in allocation of chores, some systems take over the roles of others, while others get more specialized. It can get complex, and I’m not sure I’m really trained enough in biology to fully explain it. But I can try to muster up the time to do more research and give a more thorough explanation later, if you desire. 33. Serology, or Blood Tests This is a pretty interesting subject, and another one for which I am not really knowledgeable enough to make much a comment. But, if I properly understand the point he is trying to make, he is implying that this line of inquiry is inconclusive. If that is true, than fine, we can dump it as supporting evidence for evolution. Considering how conclusive thousands of other lines of evidence supporting evolution, I don’t mind letting go of a few. He can have this point. 34. Embryology (It is true that at this time, embryology was pretty much at a dead end. The big reason was that we needed to understand and map DNA code first, which was still a few decades away from happening. While it is true that some lines of morphological evidence heavily supported evolution (and still do), there were too many gaps in the understanding that were unbridgeable at the time. But this is no longer the case. Now that we have an idea how genetics works and have developed very sophisticated tools to observe and measure embryonic development processes, embryology has become one of the fastest growing and most sophisticated fields of biology. It has provided a goldmine of evolutionary proof, but has also helped us understand a great variety of diseases and birth defects. The fact that we have used evolutionary principles to find ways to successfully cure or mitigate these conditions shows that evolution corresponds very nicely with reality. This is all new though, so I don’t blame him for not knowing about it. But it works and is being very heavily investigated as we speak. Most of the primary scientific supporters of evolution these days come from this field.) Part III: The Soul 35: The Origin of the Soul Not a shred of evidence here that the soul even exists, just contempt for those who believe that the vague concepts ascribed to the vague notion have physical components instead of spiritual ones (and to this date, psychology, neurology and biology have failed to find much, if anything, that cannot be ascribed to the chemical, hormonal and energetic processes observed in each field.) Further, religions have conflicting and sometimes mutually exclusive notions of what a soul really is and how it functions. None can draw from any authority except their holy books and esoteric philosophy. 36: Personality Personality is a very complex concept, one that is formed both by nature and nurture. (Quite a bit can now be explained by neurology.) Even in his time it should have been obvious that personalities change within a person over their lifetime, and that different people have different responses to certain kind of events. This indicates that at least part of it is not hardwired, thus not necessarily reliant on evolution. And if he thinks that animals are devoid of personality, I argue that he never had cats or dogs. And his closing comments on this section are just tedious reiterations of his obvious inability to grasp how evolution is proposed. Its rather sad to see him so passionately argue against a concept that he simply can’t grasp. Which is rather common in this debate. 37: Intellect, Emotions and Will Pretty much a combination of my responses to the above two points. By identifying these things as spiritual, he isn’t even allowing room for physical origins (although, to be fair, physical evidence for such things didn’t really exist in his time. Now we have bushels of it.) Further he ignores that some animals do display intellect, emotion and even willpower. He clearly hasn’t worked closely with animals. 38. Abstract reason (Now that we are successfully establishing lines of communication with primates and cetaceans, we are aware that they do have the capacity for reason. Higher species of birds are also apparently capable of it. The sophistication is somewhat less, but then so are their brains. Also, the developmental capacity of reason is molded by how the animal lives and the situations it has to deal with. Cetaceans don’t really have the ability to develop ways of building things, but since their power to manipulate the environment is so limited, this is hardly surprising. They can, however, solve puzzles and make intuitive assessments of the environment. Crows and their relatives can too.) But there is more to it than pure physiology. The basic capacity for reason is inherent within us, but the amount of fine-tuning we give it advances through the generations. And mostly, it happens in states of incremental development. Just as a child has to learn basic math to understand algebra, so too does a society have to learn how to harness fire before building an internal combustion engine. It took us a while to get the ball rolling, but the development of society spend it up immensely. And it continues to. 39: Conscience Sigh, here we go again. (Once again, explained by neurology, with new evidence being gathered almost daily.) And some animals do display signs of a conscience. He just ignores it flatly because he can’t let himself realize that almost everything that man does has an equivelent in the animal kingdom. And all of his questions about “why don’t animals have this trait”, even if they were true, could be reversed by asking “Why doesn’t man have wings?” Different creatures went on different paths, and adapted accordingly due to numerous factors, the gestalt of which were mostly personal. 40: Spirituality The short and quick explanation goes like this: Man has always been curious and clever, more so than most other animals. We also have an apparently distinctive trait: We don’t like letting questions go unanswered. In the childhood of humanity, few things were understood, and our ancestors could not abide that. Investigations were made, but we simply didn’t have the tools to answer all of our questions. So we started making them up. Religion served to comfort us, and allowed us to focus on the task at hand. It provided answers that made sense at the time, but generally only dealt with questions that didn’t actually NEED to be answered in order to guarantee survival of the species. It was an intellectual placeholder that made us more comfortable in our ignorance. But as we emerge into a less ignorant species, we come to realize just how incorrect some spiritual answers are, while others are inconclusive or can be dealt with just as easily in secular philosophy. Non-religious spirituality is pretty much just a warm fuzzy, but religion is frequently used to establish control over a population, and as support for power from religious leaders. It is a result of certain activities intrinsic to our species existence (although we now have some evidence that Neanderthals may have had religion as well!) 41: Hope for Immortality A sad weakness in our species that has nothing to do with evolution. 42: Sin, 43: Redemption Tools used to keep society in check. Fairly valuable concepts that actually have secular counterparts in law and personal interactions. But treated purely as religion, they do a better job of keeping religious leaders in power than in actually solving any of humanities problems. 44: Evolution aids infidelity and sin “Many evolutionists frankly declare that the purpose of evolution is to destroy belief in God, or his active control of his creation.” And if I were to meet such a person I would have to give them a stern talking to. Evolution is not a moral code nor an attack on moral codes. (The basis for morality is now known to be physical, but that still doesn’t mean that evolution discourages moral behavior. Indeed, quite the opposite, as morality is beneficial to the survival of social species, and so it is actually good to have it around. But we don’t need religion to implement it.) As far as his attacks on atheist societies, these would be just as relevant as attacks on theist societies who have gone to war over deities. Evil exists on both sides of the theistic fence. But evolutionary theory has little to say about it, as it is based on a specific realm of observation. It is a wholly different subject, and if the religious want to believe in evolution, they are more than welcome to. 45. Evolution Wars with Religion His heavily biased tirades and rhetoric are wearing thin. Once again, evolution doesn’t directly comment on religion. It simply makes observations. It doesn’t refute God, it simply says that if God does happen to exist, evolution is the tool he used to create the variety of life on Earth. Almost all of the earliest researchers in the subject were Christian, and most of them stayed that way. They didn’t see a conflict. Sure, it does seem to refute a literal interpretation of the Bible, but many Christians don’t take the Bible literally. They can get what they need out of it even if it is “merely” a collection of parables. This “war” we are seeing is waged by Creationists who are empowered only by emotion and fear that if the Bible is untrue, than so is God. The evolutionists don’t operate on fear, simply observation. 46: Camouflage of Terms: Evolution: As a basic English word, evolution simply means “change of time.” In the scientific usage, it is further refined to mean change in a specific direction. The Biological definition of evolution refers to change in species over time. And finally the Biological Theory of Evolution is the theory that attempts to explain how it happens. It is rather unfortunate that the English language has so many words with multiple definitions, but that is just how our language developed. And indeed, most creationists themselves can’t distinguish between all the words. Not our fault. Science in this context is basically short hand for Modern Naturalistic Science. And he still doesn’t know what a scientific theory is. No wonder he is so confused. Religion: (I don’t know what evolutionists in his time were saying, but the modern evolutionist is quick to point out that evolution is most certainly NOT religion. Indeed, we have to tell that to creationists themselves, repeatedly.) Laws and Nature: He’s the one giving credit to God for these things, not the evolutionist. Modernism and Liberal: Not really relevant to the subject Rationalist: Simply a person who relies on evidence and logic for their assertions, instead of faith. 47: What are We to Believe? That is up to the individual. Evolution provides evidence. It doesn’t have any direct comment on anything outside of that evidence. 48-50: A bunch of rhetoric and reiterations. 49 was just a wrap-up of the rest of the paper, 48 and 50 are just tactics for keeping people in line with Christianity. Not particularly relevant to this conversation. Appendix: Beating the Piltdown Man horse to death. I didn’t read the next article, as it is even older and appears to be fairly rhetorical. Yes I went through all of this very quickly and not in great detail. I am not interested in writing a book. But I will happily zoom in on specific subjects contained herein (but not every one please. That could take years!) Feel free to mention any specifics to focus our discussion :) Side: evolutionism
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God is an invention. You stand here and tell me there is a Supreme blah out there then please answer this...why are there so many different replicas of different religions if your god is the only one that exists then how come different people believe in other things. Side: evolutionism
God is an invention. You stand here and tell me there is a Supreme blah out there then please answer this...why are there so many different replicas of different religions if your god is the only one that exists then how come different people believe in other things. Thats like saying 'why are there so many different theories on how this world was created', there is no one answer and each answer differs in relation to the individual believing/not believing. For the record, asking a question that has hundreds of potential answers and expecting me to deliver the hundreds of potentialities does not and cannot outsmart me - on the other hand, if you actually have a genuine interest in debate, use your brain and ask questions that have the potential to create decent arguments, savvy? As for "you stand here and tell me" - no, I sit here and I wasn't even telling you; I've never even seen your name before. "Supreme blah"?? Piss off you dimwit lmao. Side: creationism
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If you believe in creationism then your basically saying..well I guess everyone got together and decided to make a planet...and think...only one planet...there is only one planet out there...you don't see any others? like I said before there are many,many, many different types of religions out there with a bunch of theories on how the world is created. Doesn't it seem dumb to you to believe in only one way. Supreme 'blah' is simple for me to say all supreme beings that people believe in not just one...you would be surprised by how many more are out there besides the one you believe in. I also take offense because I am an evolutionist and if you are saying science is an invention etc...then obviously I will take offense to it. Let's just list off the positives of what science has done: - Science has helped to create new medications. -Science shows how the human body functions. - Science has helped to improve technology. - Science has improved the judicial system. - Science has helped people to go into space. - Science has helped to better understandings of the world around us. Religion: - It gives you an imaginary being to believe in, to worship, to read...but Religion also discrimnates, it judges and it hurts people. Also Religion has created but not limited too: - The Holocaust - Genocides - Fucking nut jobs who go out and kill people for the sake that their supreme 'blah' will eventually bring them to sanctuary. Creationism if that's how they feel...do believe in ONE way the world was created and that is through someone who clearly has never existed anywhere except through the power of imagination oh and story books...but you know Anne Rice was always a really good author. Side: evolutionism
If you believe in creationism then your basically saying..well I guess everyone got together and decided to make a planet...and think...only one planet...there is only one planet out there...you don't see any others? If you hadn't presented such a dimwitted paragraph to begin with, I might actually view your post as intelligent and even perhaps interesting. But unfortunately, you decided to open with stupidity so I must progress from here with a dull and bored attitude. Your fault. Firstly, I don't believe "everyone got together and decided to make a planet"; this only further displays your lack of intelligence and dangerously low IQ. I believe that the world was created by God who also created every other planet in this universe which rules out your second point. Doesn't it seem dumb to you to believe in only one way Not really - if I was to believe in several ways then each one would contradict the other thus none making sense; surely that is the dumb option. Supreme 'blah' is simple for me to say all supreme beings that people believe in not just one...you would be surprised by how many more are out there besides the one you believe in. Supreme blah? No offence but piss off. One God, one way, one truth. If you can't hack that then too bad and your loss. I also take offense because I am an evolutionist and if you are saying science is an invention etc...then obviously I will take offense to it. You take offence? Seriously, you mistake me for someone who gives a buck. Science is not an invention but evolution is. As for your list of what relgion 'created' - religion is a thing, not men or God, its an opinion/belief that millions have that differ from each other. It is a thing therefore it could not have created the Holocaust or any other evil event as it is a 'thing'. It was men that created these evils so blame them instead of something that is incapable of sin. Just because some Christians have acted like twats in the past does not make all Christians bad - if you believe this then get a dictionary and study the meaning of 'steryotype' and 'generalizing'. Fucking nut jobs who go out and kill people for the sake that their supreme 'blah' will eventually bring them to sanctuary. Yeah they sure are nut jobs, but that does not in any way make all of mankind who believes in something a nut job. The conclusion you have come to is both delusioned and entirely effed up and I suggest you begin to change your views or people will begin to believe you are verging on ignorant. Side: evolutionism
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The evolution of man from quadrupedal ape-like animal to today's bi-pedal gait is well documented in fossil evidence, and some of our closest genetic cousins practice bipedal locomotion from time to time so, I'd say you should look up the facts before commenting. Evolution by natural selection is not an invention, it is a natural force that has been observed in nature and in vitro, it has mountains of evidence both from the fossil record and even more convincingly from molecular data. To deny evolution as fact is to stick one's fingers in one's ears and scream (insert favorite tripe here) over and over again until the nasty scientists stop talking. Side: evolutionism
Oh yeah? Is that so? Well, as far as I can see it is you who is ramming your fingers so far down your earholes yet the true voices are ringing loud and clear, as they always have done and will. Keep mumbling about your ideas and fantasies but shoving a graph in front of me and expecting me to believe the scrappy handwriting that just by the way fails to produce ACCURATE EVIDENCE is an absolute waste of my time. Something else you should note; there is not "mountains of evidence" to support evolution, but rather mountains of documents that fail to produce accurate evidence for men evolving from big hairy apes. It is not well documented in fossil evidence; if it was I would be convinced that your argument wasn't a pile of crap. I think it is yourself who needs to look up the "facts" because you will find that the "document evidence" that you speak about is in fact a pile of tripe, and the man who invented evolution actually refuted it on his deathbed. Put that in your pipe and smoke it, Mr-I-think-I-know-it-all. Side: creationism
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Oh yeah? Is that so? Well, as far as I can see it is you who is ramming your fingers so far down your earholes yet the true voices are ringing loud and clear, as they always have done and will. Sure buddy. Keep mumbling about your ideas and fantasies but shoving a graph in front of me and expecting me to believe the scrappy handwriting that just by the way fails to produce ACCURATE EVIDENCE is an absolute waste of my time. What exactly are you talking about, graphs and scrappy handwriting and my fantasies, evolution is accepted by most of the top scientists that exist. As far as accurate evidence goes, what would you call a 99% DNA match with chimps and bobobos. Or how about the Lenski experiments where E.Coli has been observed evolving, changing it's metabolism to suit environmental pressures and utilizing a different food source. How about Craig ventor a man whose team have engineered the first artificial self replicating organism, John Endler's experiments with guppies where where they lost and regained their spots due to environmental change. Or check out any work with retrograde viral insertions. Goggle any of these and you will find them. but rather mountains of documents that fail to produce accurate evidence for men evolving from big hairy apes. I find this amusing, you obviously know better than the top biologists paleontologists and anthropologists, biochemists, biophysicists and all other top minds on this planet that are researching and everyday providing more and more evidence, how much does it take? Oh, here is a brief over view of Hominid evolution. http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/ Can you provide me with one link that disproves evolution, you seem to have all the answers, criticize actual evidence yet provide none. if it was I would be convinced that your argument wasn't a pile of crap Did you even look before typing this? have you read even one book or journal on evolution? I think it is yourself who needs to look up the "facts" because you will find that the "document evidence" that you speak about is in fact a pile of tripe, I have looked up the facts I've read quite a bit into this subject as it is one in which I have a great interest, I'm also an undergraduate Biochemist, so I've put a bit of research into this, something you clearly have not, as if you did you'd have at least an argument outside of your "feelings" and hearsay. and the man who invented evolution actually refuted it on his deathbed. Put that in your pipe and smoke it, Mr-I-think-I-know-it-all. First of all, I assume you are talking about Charles Darwin, secondly Darwin was not the first to ever speak about evolution check out Lamarck's work, but it goes even way further back. What Darwin discovered was the mechanism by which evolution works, that is Natural Selection. Furthermore, if Charles Darwin had a hesto chango death bed repentance, something of which I've seen no evidence for, it still does not take from the truth of his entire life's work, work that has been taken up and proved by more modern science. Furthermore the weakness of a man is not evidence for anything. Mr-I-think-I-know-it-all. Nice. Side: evolutionism
Come on, just because you say that "evolution is accepted by most of the top scientists that exist" I am suddenly meant to abandon my beliefs and be taken in by the words of fools? I am nothing like that. You say there has been a 99% DNA match; how do I know that is accurate? How do I know its even true? As for "you obviously know better than..." I am flattered. The in-depth study I have done in science is related to how scientists believe the world came about. The reason I study this is because when discussing creation with an atheist, we would appear ignorant if each one of us had not studied the other's beliefs. Therefore when debating creation, I feel much less ignorant as I know the many theories which makes the debate a genuine and more interesting argument. I may not be as intelligent as many of the top scientists in the world, but I do however feel their intelligence is wasted and could be put to much greater use. You ask for one link disproving evolution. Well, here is one :) http://ldolphin.org/wmwilliams.html As a fellow debator, I ask you to not take any words out of context or twist words to suit your argument. I hope you find the link of some interest; I certainly did, I always find something new on pages such as these. Side: creationism
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I am suddenly meant to abandon my beliefs and be taken in by the words of fools? If you'd rather believe the words of desert goat herders form the bronze age go ahead, or as in the case of your link the words of a priest written in ignorance in the 1920s. If you want to believe what you believe then that is your entitlement, I do not wish for you to abandon your beliefs, in fact i respect a man that will stand by them wrong or not. To assume these men fools is in itself folly as most scientists of repute are respectable scientists that use and accept or reject any evidence, it is a great achievement of any scientist to properly debunk accepted theory. You say there has been a 99% DNA match; how do I know that is accurate? Do you think it is not, it is accepted as true and thought in all decent. universities. http://mbe.oxfordjournals.org/content/6/ As for "you obviously know better than..." I am flattered. The sarcasm is obviously lost on you. The in-depth study I have done in science is related to how scientists believe the world came about. The reason I study this is because when discussing creation with an atheist, we would appear ignorant if each one of us had not studied the other's beliefs. I'd like to see the results of this in-depth study. I also have read a lot of creationist material as I do not comment unless I know. Therefore when debating creation, I feel much less ignorant as I know the many theories which makes the debate a genuine and more interesting argument That's a good thing, it's better to know what the other side are propagating. I may not be as intelligent as many of the top scientists in the world, but I do however feel their intelligence is wasted and could be put to much greater use. This is a bold statement, the top scientists you speak of are using these data to make life better. As far as your link is concerned, this mans facts are old and out dated, he states that the world is 60 million years old and this is false, which puts his maths completely out, the known age of our planet is somewhere in the region of 4.5 billion years old. He also puts the origin of man in the bronze age, a time when anthropologists and paleontologists agree was past the agricultural revolution a time and a means for rapid population growth. A growth that would kind of coincide with your posts estimate on when the worlds human population started to take off, rendering his mathematical proof invalid. The article goes on to state that their is no observed evolution, this is also completely rubbished by the work of John Endler, he observed the macro evolution of guppies where due to predation in a small few generations they lost their characteristic spots that were essential to mating, female fish without spots in the new system, where predation was introduced favored males with out spots, something that in their previous habitat was an essential to attracting a mate, that is, environmental adaptation in a large complex organism within a relatively short space of time. Evolution in action. Evolution on the micro scale has been observed many time, HIV viruses become resistant to drugs and diversify into organisms that are obviously more complex, as they now have the ability to survive in a more hostile environment, the same applies to bacteria such as Mrs a penicillin resistant super bug that has become so prolific due to the overuse of antibiotics. The reason micro-evolution is observable while macro is generally not is that there are so many generation changes in such a short space of time enabling the microbes to become different to the common ancestor in a short time line by human standards. There is also many untruths in his facts and figures, such as his estimate of how many species exist, this also puts his figures right out. There is too much on this article to dispute all, but I've thrown in a few nuggets to keep this debate moving, I hope you'll appreciate this, if there are individual points you think are relevant I'd be more than willing to go head to head on them. As a fellow debtor, I ask you to not take any words out of context or twist words to suit your argument. I hope you find the link of some interest; I certainly did, I always find something new on pages such as these. Sometimes I think that you are reasonable and sometimes I think that you are being arrogant, please stop telling me your "rules", I'd be insulted if I was a lesser man. Side: evolutionism
If you'd rather believe the words of desert goat herders form the bronze age go ahead, or as in the case of your link the words of a priest written in ignorance in the 1920s Seriously, you're making this debate such an effin drag, man. If you want to believe what you believe then that is your entitlement I know it is, I never asked for your permission. Do you think it is not, it is accepted as true and thought in all decent. universities. http://mbe.oxfordjournals.org/content/6/ 4/325.full.pdf+html (this may be a bit old, as it does not include baobabs but the info is sound.) Sound? You call that sound? A document telling me something is not sound evidence, my friend, it is very much lacking in evidence. The sarcasm is obviously lost on you No but mine was clearly lost on you ;) I'd like to see the results of this in-depth study. I also have read a lot of creationist material as I do not comment unless I know. You’re asking me to type up a whole study that is a complete mess of papers in a bout three different ring binders and which one is not even in my house? That I don’t have time for. That's a good thing, it's better to know what the other side are propagating True, even if its horseshit. This is a bold statement, the top scientists you speak of are using these data to make life better. Making life better for whom? And how does a study with no evidence make ones life more complete? This I fail to understand as would any other rational human being. As far as your link is concerned, this mans facts are old and out dated So is the bible yet it’s the best selling book. Outdated? No such thing except from when it comes to food. he states that the world is 60 million years old Wrong, he gives an example such as “even if the world was 60 million years old…” (which he knows it isn’t), you read it wrong. He doesn’t believe the world to be anywhere near that amount of years old. The article goes on to state that their is no observed evolution, this is also completely rubbished by the work of John Endler, he observed the macro evolution of guppies where due to predation in a small few generations they lost their characteristic spots that were essential to mating, female fish without spots in the new system, where predation was introduced favored males with out spots, something that in their previous habitat was an essential to attracting a mate, that is, environmental adaptation in a large complex organism within a relatively short space of time. Evolution in action. Ahh, another single man who ‘witnessed’ “evolution in action”. These men – so selfish of them to hog the labs like that and not let anyone else in to see their amazing horseshit findings! Perhaps because there is nothing happening… There is also many untruths in his facts and figures, such as his estimate of how many species exist, this also puts his figures right out Who’s figures? My guy or your guy? There is too much on this article to dispute all, but I've thrown in a few nuggets to keep this debate moving, I hope you'll appreciate this, if there are individual points you think are relevant I'd be more than willing to go head to head on them Goody – my favourite part. Firstly, of course you cannot dispute it all, you barely even mentioned it. You just went on to talk about some scientist who apparently witnessed evolution in action. Doesn’t it strike you as rather odd that no man in your street or my street or even any one on my fucking island has ever witnessed “evolution in action” before? Rather odd indeed, no, it’s a fucking wake up call man. Secondly, your “nuggets” did nothing of the sort but rather only further showed your incapability to prove to me that evolution is fact which its not. Hey, I know what!! Someone recently told me in a post that I disprove arguments but fail to produce my own. Ok, well here mine is: God created the world, God created man, God did not create a big hairy ape that evolved into an upright human being who could read, write and pat the monkeys on the head that failed to ‘evolve into human beings’. So, how about you telling me some reasons why not to believe in creationism. Thirdly, let’s cut the sarcasm and between the lines insults – they’re gay and seriously, I will quit responding if you continue to act like a prick. Sometimes I think that you are reasonable and sometimes I think that you are being arrogant, please stop telling me your "rules", I'd be insulted if I was a lesser man LOL! Wow, that’s rich. So, I’m meant to take your shit but I can’t ask for my words to remain in context? Fuck you man, if you can’t debate like a mature grown up then its posts like this that will head your way. As you can tell, my approach to this debate is now reluctant and bored, you are the most dull and insulting debater. Perhaps you have potential but we will never know. As for the bit above this where I say ‘lets debate reasionably’ – forget that, I’m bored. You can call this ‘defeat’ if it makes you feel any better, but take a look at my ‘about me’ page and you will see that I don’t debate with people who insult me and debates that are a drag. Debate closed. Side: creationism
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Sound? You call that sound? A document telling me something is not sound evidence, my friend, it is very much lacking in evidence. What would you like? For me to do a report in front of you, this is peer reviewed material. How exactly do you obtain your sound evidence, I mean think about it, you posted a document to bolster your side, I did the same, the difference being that I disputed your post and you just said mine was crap. You’re asking me to type up a whole study that is a complete mess of papers in a bout three different ring binders and which one is not even in my house? That I don’t have time for. How would I know that your in depth study was actually scraps of paper thrown in various locations around your life, honestly? Making life better for whom? And how does a study with no evidence make ones life more complete? This I fail to understand as would any other rational human being. You obviously don't know what you are talking about. Molecular biologists and biochemists are creating new and life saving medicines, curing cancers and aids, you know that kind of thing, a lot of what is understood about these ideas, ones that actually works is derived from information taken from evolutionary biology. Yet again you mention a study with no evidence, to what are you refering. So is the bible yet it’s the best selling book. Outdated? No such thing except from when it comes to food. The bible was originally sold to a captive market and is being distributed ad nauseum to the poor and there is also the Gideons placing it in every hotel room in the world. The bible does not even mention a dinosaur, you'd think creatures like that living beside them would have been given at least a nod. As far as outdated information is concerned, I'm sure you'll have to agree that the world being flat is outdated information, or the zodiac. Wrong, he gives an example such as “even if the world was 60 million years old…” (which he knows it isn’t), you read it wrong. He doesn’t believe the world to be anywhere near that amount of years old Which is also a point to go against him, radiometric dating is seriously accurate, and It ages our planet to a time way further back than even 60 million. Ahh, another single man who ‘witnessed’ “evolution in action”. These men – so selfish of them to hog the labs like that and not let anyone else in to see their amazing horseshit findings! Perhaps because there is nothing happening… Honestly you jump to too many conclusion, John Endler's study was not done in a lab, it was done in the wild first and the results are there and indisputable, one can not claim to have evidence in the scientific community and then keep it to yourself and get recognition for it. Who’s figures? My guy or your guy? Your "guy" obviously. Goody – my favourite part. Firstly, of course you cannot dispute it all, you barely even mentioned it. It would take forever and I don't think it would do any good to try and fit it all into a post on here, I mentioned a few parts simply because I thought it would keep the debate moving. Doesn’t it strike you as rather odd that no man in your street or my street or even any one on my fucking island has ever witnessed “evolution in action” before? What do you want to see? fish turning into Rabbis? It does not strike me as odd, what would strike me as odd would be people actually seeing it in their street, evolution needs a massive timescale to come to the point it's at and if you are willing to shun all evidence and believe one book which states that the world is less than ten thousand years old then you'll never understand it. I've given more examples as well by the way, I've posted links, I've mentioned the Lenski experiments, how do you explain these things. What about vestigial organs, such as a snake's pelvis, a human nicitating membrane, a whale's hind legs. God created the world, God created man, God did not create a big hairy ape that evolved into an upright human being who could read, write and pat the monkeys on the head that failed to ‘evolve into human beings’. So, how about you telling me some reasons why not to believe in creationism. If God was the originator then why leave so much evidence in support of evolution around, why leave dinosaur fossils in the earth, why give animals vestigial organs, why leave fossils of early man and other species in the genus homo stuck in the ground, why make a human and an ape so closely related, why make microbes change under environmental pressure to become stronger. This is only just evolutionary evidence to not believe in creationism, there is physics as well (radiometric dating). I also see not one single piece of evidence that proves it (creationism), or the existence of a God, an entity in which a belief is necessary to start believing creationism. Furthermore creationism to explain complexity is a weak argument, a being powerful enough to create the universe would be far more complex than it, and would itself require explanation. Seeing gaps and plugging God as the answer solves nothing and impedes progress, until God can be proved he should be kept out of science. Thirdly, let’s cut the sarcasm and between the lines insults – they’re gay and seriously, I will quit responding if you continue to act like a prick. Actually can you stop being a hypocrite, your language is foul and the manner in which you approach the debate is petulant while accusing me of not debating like a grown up, this here and the further tirade of negativity that you finish your last post with is why I said I found your style intriguing. Your words do remain in context as I've explained already I only copy over enough of your point to keep carrying the idea, to copy all would lead to a huge post where half of it would be that which you've already typed. Perhaps you have potential but we will never know. Who's we? Do you honestly believe that your opinion means anything? I don’t debate with people who insult me and debates that are a drag. Debate closed. What are you looking for, polite conversation? The heat of the argument is what makes it fun. and just to finish, you throw insult and fail to see it, then get insulted when the shit is returned, a bit hypocritical me thinks. Side: evolutionism
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One thing you should note is that nothing is a fact.It's all a bunch of shananigans pulled together by the illuminati to throw us off track.Where I come from,religion is a big thing because we deal with powers beyond mere human comprehension.I go to sleep at night not knowing where I'd be the next day and every day we see different things that show us that there is God.So,believe me when I say,it was evolution spurred on by creation. Side: creationism
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One thing you should note is that nothing is a fact.It's all a bunch of shananigans pulled together by the illuminati to throw us off track.Where I come from,religion is a big thing because we deal with powers beyond mere human comprehension.I go to sleep at night not knowing where I'd be the next day and every day we see different things that show us that there is God.So,believe me when I say,it was evolution spurred on by creation. Side: creationism
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One thing you should note is that nothing is a fact.It's all a bunch of shananigans pulled together by the illuminati to throw us off track. Sure, so all the discoveries and scientific theories that lead to understanding are in fact being concocted by a secret society hell bent on confusing the ignorant with their bamboozling words and crazy formulae that no-one can understand. Is that your point? Where I come from,religion is a big thing because we deal with powers beyond mere human comprehension. Such as what, what happens where you come from that doesn't happen anywhere else? I go to sleep at night not knowing where I'd be the next day I'm sure your bed in the morning would be a good place to start. and every day we see different things that show us that there is God Such as? So,believe me when I say,it was evolution spurred on by creation. I'll not believe you when you say it, thanks anyway, what have you got that shows this to be true. Just wondering which branch of creationism are you buying. Side: evolutionism
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One thing you should note is that nothing is a fact.It's all a bunch of shananigans pulled together by the illuminati to throw us off track.Where I come from,religion is a big thing because we deal with powers beyond mere human comprehension.I go to sleep at night not knowing where I'd be the next day and every day we see different things that show us that there is God.So,believe me when I say,it was evolution spurred on by creation. Side: creationism
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One thing you should note is that nothing is a fact.It's all a bunch of shananigans pulled together by the illuminati to throw us off track.Where I come from,religion is a big thing because we deal with powers beyond mere human comprehension.I go to sleep at night not knowing where I'd be the next day and every day we see different things that show us that there is God.So,believe me when I say,it was evolution spurred on by creation. Side: creationism
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The fact is that no actual transition fossils have been found. Even the supposed "missing links" that are touted as the answer to the evolutionary chain are located before any transition forms would have been found in the evolutionary timeline. Also, consider the principle of irreducible complexity. Evolutionary theory and natural selection posit that biological systems would be efficient but, at the same time, that lifeforms evolved over centuries and millennia. How, then, would a life form begin to develop a new organ or biological system if its first stages were completely useless. A resource-consuming organ like that would not appear in the life form's offspring. Side: creationism
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The fact is that no actual transition fossils have been found. Even the supposed "missing links" that are touted as the answer to the evolutionary chain are located before any transition forms would have been found in the evolutionary time line. http://tiktaalik.uchicago.edu/ http://www.ucmp.berkeley.edu/diapsids/ These are just two of many, look as well to living fossils such as platypus which is half reptile, half mammal. What about whales and dolphins that have vestigial legs, or snakes that have a pelvis, all of these point to evolutionary variation Also, consider the principle of irreducible complexity. Evolutionary theory and natural selection posit that biological systems would be efficient but, at the same time, that lifeforms evolved over centuries and millennia. How, then, would a life form begin to develop a new organ or biological system if its first stages were completely useless. What is wrong with 1% of an eye when your competitor has none, there are microorganisms with light sensitive spots, there are flat tubellarians with light sensitive cells in hollows on the front of their bodies that take the light sensitive spot to the next level by giving the perception of direction, there are many more slight variations on this up until the eyes of prey birds. Indeed what is the advantage of cells on one organism that detoxify the system as their function (a rudimentary liver), this would lead to a better capability to consume and therefore propagate the species further, an advantage over their rivals, over time this would become more complex building to what you know as the liver, complex yes but there is no need to invoke a designer. There is also a good point to made from Darwin's cranes rather than sky hooks analogy, a complex system doesn't necessarily have to always keep all it's parts, something as complex as ATP transcriptase may not always have functioned alone, it may have been part of a much bigger, more easily understandable system that lost over time it's superfluous proteins or structures leaving behind only that which is needed. Side: evolutionism
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Also, consider the principle of irreducible complexity. That is not a principle; it's an identified pseudoscience. How, then, would a life form begin to develop a new organ or biological system if its first stages were completely useless. I believe the current understanding is that the function of these systems changed over time. Side: evolutionism
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Developing over time requires stage-by-stage alterations. Look at the woodpecker. Its beak, head, and body are all optimized for drilling into trees. It would never have developed these over generations, as it could never have obtained any insects from the trees prior to these anatomical developments. Side: creationism
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Look at the woodpecker. Its beak, head, and body are all optimized for drilling into trees. It would never have developed these over generations, as it could never have obtained any insects from the trees prior to these anatomical developments. Your misconception is that the beak was always used as an instrument for extracting insects from beneath the bark of trees. It is simply necessary for a bird to be born with a pointy beak, and to discover that it can then use the beak, in addition to its usual feeding practices, to garner some mote of additional nutrition from such a source. As the beak becomes more refined, the birds simply switch to trees as the source of their staple food. Side: evolutionism
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The beak is indeed specially designed to drill into trees repeatedly with regard to strength and size. In addition, its smaller brain size and the fact that its head is protected by cartilage very similar to a shock absorber support my point. Also, its tongue is bristled to aid in the extraction of insects. Finally, the woodpecker's zygodactyl feet support it on the bark as it completes the drilling and extraction process. All of these developments function in tandem to ensure that the woodpecker survives this process. Side: creationism
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The beak is indeed specially designed to drill into trees repeatedly with regard to strength and size. I see you have failed entirely to comprehend what I said. But no matter. In addition, its smaller brain size and the fact that its head is protected by cartilage very similar to a shock absorber support my point. Your point is that the woodpecker is very well equipped for the extraction of insects from trees. That's reasonable enough. Where I have a problem is how that simple fact posits the following: "A supernatural and omnipotent being created the Earth in six days, along with all of the animals now present, as they appear now, without causing them to evolve and without ever creating something known as the dinosaur". Your position is brain-dead. You can't A) be bothered to work it out. and/or B)Admit that your ridiculous beliefs, wholly unsupported and physically impossible as they are, are wrong. As I have explained, any trait which is conducive to the survival of a species in a particular environment is usually propagated. You need to remember that not all traits are evolved simultaneously. A plausible explanation is that after the birds had switched to trees as their staple source of food, they began to develop thicker skulls (you might be able to empathise with this). And that ignores the possibility that the birds inherited these systems from dinosaurs (for we understand now that birds are descended from dinosaurs). Side: evolutionism
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I never in any way suggested that I believe in the creationist world view. Rather, every argument of mine has focused on the scientific problems associated with the theory of evolution. it seems odd that you immediately attack what you assume to be my beliefs without defending the fundamental questions that are posed by evolutionary theory. In fact, I do believe that the Earth is approximately 4.5 billion years old, although the exact age of the universe and Earth could vary quite a bit based on the mathematics used to measure the universe's expansion. The primary issue that the pseudoscience of evolution has has never answered has to do with how biological systems could develop in stages over long periods of time while respecting natural selection. The woodpecker would not have developed all of these features immediately, and, as such, it could never have been able to drill into trees prior to doing so. According to evolution, the cartilage protecting its head would not have immediately appeared. The first stages of this would create superfluous anatomical developments of little or no purpose. The skull would still not have been able to withstand the repeated impact against trees. So, as it was of no use, those initial phases of the shock absorbing cartilage would be bred out in the offspring. Side: creationism
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I never in any way suggested that I believe in the creationist world view. Your arguments are tagged "creationism" and you have argued against evolution. In fact, I believe I spy below this passage the term "pseudoscience of evolution". I've never heard that one. Virtually the entire biological science community supports evolution, its observation is an unquestionable fact, it is posited by genetic theory, it is supported by volumes of fossil evidence; yet you label it so? Your impudence is astounding. Rather, every argument of mine has focused on the scientific problems associated with the theory of evolution. "Irreducible complexity" is a recognised pseudoscience, so your have no foundation upon which to argue scientifically. . it seems odd that you immediately attack what you assume to be my beliefs without defending the fundamental questions that are posed by evolutionary theory. I have simply shown you that your understanding of the mechanics of evolution is flawed. You have failed to respond to what I said; rather you have expounded upon your misconceptions. The woodpecker would not have developed all of these features immediately, and, as such, it could never have been able to drill into trees prior to doing so. As I have already said, the explanation proposed by the scientific community (whomever they may be) is that the systems' function has changed as they developed. You have yet to counter this point. According to evolution, the cartilage protecting its head would not have immediately appeared. The first stages of this would create superfluous anatomical developments of little or no purpose. The skull would still not have been able to withstand the repeated impact against trees. So, as it was of no use, those initial phases of the shock absorbing cartilage would be bred out in the offspring. Unless the cartilage was always present in the ancestors of the woodpeckers. Your argument is irreparably flawed, as it fails to accommodate the possibility, nay the certainty, that woodpecker species originated as dinosaurs. Who is to say that the cartilage was not present in their ancestor; and that it was removed by natural selection from other species of birds, or was never present in those pedigrees? So, as it was of no use, those initial phases of the shock absorbing cartilage would be bred out in the offspring. What is of no use but no detriment is not always bred out, or at least not quickly. The appendix in humans, for example. Side: evolutionism
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First, you're not going to lure me from my arguments about irreducible complexity. YOU have yet to explain how, in any biological system, the first stages of development, as required by evolutionary theory, can lead to more advanced structures in the body. To use the woodpecker example, why would it have had the unique cartilage in its head if it didn't need a shock absorber, assuming that it did not initially use trees as a source of food? An unnecessary structure like that would never have survived in offspring serving no purpose. How about its zygodactyl feet and its tongue, both of which greatly support the woodpecker in its form of feeding. So there is a choice. The woodpecker could have existed this way from the beginning, or it didn't, and rather started to develope each feature because of a sudden need to feed from trees, despite the fact that this would have taken an extremely long period and consequently would not have satisfied the woodpecker's new requirement. In that scenario, all of the features that I mentioned would have taken stages to develop, but in the initial phases they would have formed superfluous structures which would not allow the woodpecker to drill into trees and extract insects. Because they are superfluous, the features would be bred out in subsequent generations. Therefore, this pre-woodpecker bird would never have transitioned into a woodpecker. So, it really is quite simple. a) Woodpeckers, from the beginning, possessed all of the features necessary to feed from trees. That would contradict evolution. Or b) they start to develop new features but these are eliminated in subsequent generations because the initial features serve no purpose. I am simplifying this as much as possible, but it is clear that despite the overwhelming logic that I am using. Side: creationism
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First, you're not going to lure me from my arguments about irreducible complexity. Not even if I hold out a piece of cheese? YOU have yet to explain how, in any biological system, the first stages of development, as required by evolutionary theory, can lead to more advanced structures in the body. Now you're just trying to shift the blame. I am not going to explain evolutionary theory (which is an explanation of exactly what you speak of), as I presume you took the time to understand it before you sought to contradict it. why would it have had the unique cartilage in its head if it didn't need a shock absorber, assuming that it did not initially use trees as a source of food? That is simply useless speculation. There are many reasons for an animal to have extra protection for its brain. As I have said twice now, birds are the descendants of dinosaurs, of which several species exhibited exactly the same cranial cartilage you speak of. I don't mean to spout meaningless conjecture, but perhaps woodpeckers are descended from a species which did not fly and did have a use for the extra cartilage? And you seem to misunderstand the implications of natural selection. As I have demonstrated, useless features are generally not bred out unless they are detrimental to an organism's survival. Case example: the human appendix. Or perhaps the cartilage developed after the bird's beak did? Or developed simultaneously with the refinement of the beak from an originally wider shape? Perhaps the repetitive pecking mechanism was adopted after the birds began to seek food under the bark of trees? There are many plausible explanations, none of which are really necessary, as evolution can be directly observed in blue-bottle flies, rats and viruses. Your answer, the pseudoscientific irreducible complexity argument, is a brain dead solution which requires no real thought. You encounter a difficulty to which the correct answer is not immediately apparent, and instead of considering the dilemma properly, you simply take it as an indication that the observable phenomenon of evolution is a misunderstanding. The woodpecker could have existed this way from the beginning, or it didn't, and rather started to develope each feature because of a sudden need to feed from trees, despite the fact that this would have taken an extremely long period and consequently would not have satisfied the woodpecker's new requirement. The fundamental difference between these two scenarios, which are both conjecture, is that the latter is more harmonious with modern scientific understanding. Your argument against evolution focuses of a relatively easy to solve problem, and totally ignores the overwhelming evidence supporting a theory which has taken over a century to develop. Because they are superfluous, the features would be bred out in subsequent generations. That's just a misunderstanding, as I have already demonstrated. And for goodness' sake, answer some of my points. All you have done is reiterate your own pathetic argument. I am simplifying this as much as possible, but it is clear that despite the overwhelming logic that I am using. What is clear? Side: evolutionism
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I completely agree that irreducible complexity requires no thought, or at least very little thought. That is because it it so utterly simple that anyone who believes in or previously believed in evolutionary theory should be able to recognize its logic. The only reason that I continuously repeat my argument regarding the fact that biological systems can't develop in stages over long periods is because it is exactly the answer to your arguments that the woodpecker may have possessed the cartilage in its head prior to feeding from trees. You seem to have researched the issues to an extent, and therefore my logic should be blatantly obvious (and, viewed objectively, it is indeed obvious). So assuming that this pre-woodpecker form did possess the protective cartilage in its head, that does not explain EVERY other feature that enables woodpeckers to effectively feed from trees. The feet, thicker skull, smooth, smaller brain, barbed tongue, and unique behavior designed to protect it during the feeding process are also characteristics that must be explained, unless I am to assume that the woodpecker inherited all of these characteristics from a predecessor, in which this predecessor would be suspiciously similar to a woodpecker and might indeed not need to evolve. This predecessor could never have obtained food from trees without the aforementioned developments, as it simply would not have had the anatomical capability to do so. Perhaps one would assume that the woodpecker's ancestor possessed most of these features (because, of course, were it to possess all of them, then it would be a woodpecker, with no need for evolution). First, we could assume that it had an urgent need to find an additional food source because of, for instance, an environmental issue affecting the existing supply. In that case, the ancestor would die out simply because it would not have had all of the necessary features to acquire sustenance and would not have developed them in the necessary time frame. Second, we can assume that it possessed some of these features but did not have an urgent need to utilize a new food source. In that case, it would have had the necessary time to evolve in the necessary way, but it could never have exceeded the first steps. Why? Because the first structures, serving no purpose and being in violation of natural selection, would be eliminated in the offspring. You have stated more than once that the woodpecker would have developed the necessary attributes to feed from trees. However, the question is how it would be able to do so in stages, and for what reason that it would have continued to develop the required biological structures if the first were completely unnecessary and thus never survived the first generation. The answer is that it is impossible for that to occur. There is just one of the many fundamental flaws in evolutionary theory. Side: creationism
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I completely agree that irreducible complexity requires no thought, or at least very little thought. That is because it it so utterly simple that anyone who believes in or previously believed in evolutionary theory should be able to recognize its logic. Simple answers don't really work when discussing complicated systems. The only reason that I continuously repeat my argument regarding the fact that biological systems can't develop in stages over long periods is because it is exactly the answer to your arguments that the woodpecker may have possessed the cartilage in its head prior to feeding from trees. You seem to have researched the issues to an extent, and therefore my logic should be blatantly obvious (and, viewed objectively, it is indeed obvious). I've refuted your logic. Reiterating it won't work. So assuming that this pre-woodpecker form did possess the protective cartilage in its head, that does not explain EVERY other feature that enables woodpeckers to effectively feed from trees. The feet, thicker skull, smooth, smaller brain, barbed tongue, and unique behavior designed to protect it during the feeding process are also characteristics that must be explained, unless I am to assume that the woodpecker inherited all of these characteristics from a predecessor, in which this predecessor would be suspiciously similar to a woodpecker and might indeed not need to evolve. This predecessor could never have obtained food from trees without the aforementioned developments, as it simply would not have had the anatomical capability to do so. This argument assumes that it is impossible to garner insects from trees without every one of these developments. You only really need the beak and the skull to make a living from it. Everything else could possibly have come afterwards. First, we could assume that it had an urgent need to find an additional food source because of, for instance, an environmental issue affecting the existing supply. There's no need to assume that. If a more bounteous food source exists, the animals, if they could, would probably just switch to that, whether there was a food shortage or not. Perhaps one would assume that the woodpecker's ancestor possessed most of these features (because, of course, were it to possess all of them, then it would be a woodpecker, with no need for evolution). First, we could assume that it had an urgent need to find an additional food source because of, for instance, an environmental issue affecting the existing supply. In that case, the ancestor would die out simply because it would not have had all of the necessary features to acquire sustenance and would not have developed them in the necessary time frame. As aforesaid, it's not necessary for the ancestor to have all of the adaptations. Why? Because the first structures, serving no purpose and being in violation of natural selection, would be eliminated in the offspring You obviously don't understand what you are refuting. The function of structures changes over time, and becomes specialised over many reiterations of a basic structure held by a common ancestor. It's virtually impossible to account for one species' features because of the sheer number of ancestors and offshoots it has. The salient issue is that evolution has been directly observed in bluebottle flies, rats and viruses. It is an indisputable fact. However, the question is how it would be able to do so in stages, and for what reason that it would have continued to develop the required biological structures if the first were completely unnecessary A beak is not unnecessary. Feet are not unnecessary. A tongue is not unnecessary. A brain is not unnecessary. These features are common to all birds, and have simply become specialised in the woodpecker, as they became specialised in the various species of finches observed by Darwin in the Galapagos islands. The birds had beaks specialised to feed from the particular environment of the island they lived on. Side: evolutionism
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1. Occam's razor. 2. You have not refuted my logic. More than once, you have stated that the woodpecker could have developed the necessary features and may have originally possessed some of them from a hypothetical predecessor. I have explained that it is impossible for this stage-by-stage development to occur, yet I see no attempt to describe this process or explain how it does not violate natural selection from your perspective. 3. On the issue of your supposition that evolution has been observed, let's take a slight digression. There is, for instance, your assertion that evolution has been observed in viruses. It is an irrefutable fact that the processes observed in laboratories contain numerous errors, as the attempts to demonstrate evolution are conducted by humans and therefore will not and have not perfectly mimicked the processes posited by proponents of evolution to be true (this is referred to as "directed evolution," which suggests an intelligent being guiding the experiment with a specific outcome in mind). before you consider speaking about diseases ability to adapt to medications, that it easily explained as an adaptation, a completely legitimate process that, despite what some would have you believe, does not provide evidence for evolution. Indeed, viruses such as the flu strains that circulate each year easily mutate and, in that process, can produce beneficial protection for themselves. It is reasonable to assume that someone like yourself recognizes the importance of the origin of life on Earth even before the fictitious evolution of species occurred. So a question inevitably arises: how did life originate on Earth? Side: intelligent design
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First of all, stop down-voting my arguments you dipshit. I have far more points than you and I can afford to down-vote every argument you ever make, so grow up and fuck off. I have struck against five of your arguments and, upon discovering that you have consistently down-voted other people's arguments as fast as you can across multiple debates, I have reported you to the site authorities, who have the power to ban your account for such behaviour. I think I've made my point abundantly clear. 1. Occam's razor. That concept has no pertinence to this discussion. It deals with the number of assumptions required for a model or hypothesis to work. I'm not making assumptions, I am merely detailing a theory which explains observed natural phenomena, and is supported almost universally by scientists in the relevant field. I have explained that it is impossible for this stage-by-stage development to occur I have already explained that your assertions are pure nonsense. The refinement of an already existing feature such as the tongue, foot or beak is not impossible. And redundant systems are not always removed, as seen in the human appendix. yet I see no attempt to describe this process You are refuting evolution. If you need me to explain it to you, why on Earth do you consider your knowledge of it sufficient to refute it? explain how it does not violate natural selection from your perspective. Your assertion that it does has already been dealt with. I have shown you that redundant systems are not always removed. Beyond that, you've made no mention of natural selection. It is an irrefutable fact that the processes observed in laboratories contain numerous errors Experimental error is accounted for, which is why scientists run series of experiments. You're an idiot if you think that experimental error makes experimentation useless. before you consider speaking about diseases ability to adapt to medications, that it easily explained as an adaptation Right, I see the problem here. You don't understand what evolution is. It's a process by which organisms change over time by making adaptations (you only seem to take notice if I embolden the text) which allow them to survive and propagate in a particular environment. Indeed, viruses such as the flu strains that circulate each year easily mutate and, in that process, can produce beneficial protection for themselves. That's called evolution. So a question inevitably arises: how did life originate on Earth? Life is, at a fundamental level, a self-replicating molecule. There are numerous hypotheses on what the first molecule was (phospholipids, or two fatty acids, a glycerol and a phosphate being one of the most popular), but none have been substantiated. Bottom line is, the answer is a work in progress. That doesn't immediately sunstantiate your "MAGIC" answer, however. Side: evolutionism
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Oh no! It is possible that your arguments are being voted down because they are not adequate on a debating website such as this one. Perhaps you can discuss this myth on an ancient mythology website, because that would be more appropriate. You never provided a scientific refutation of my argument. I continued to repeat it in the most fundamental terms, but you seem unwilling to respond. Obviously, that it because there is no actual response to my assertions. Maybe you should also consider researching how to conduct the ad hominem fallacy because you are simply not succeeding. I am quite aware of the definitions pertaining to evolution. You have yet to provide any true refutation of my points, though I have noticed an effort to do so. And finally, a statement regarding the origin of life: as more complex molecules begin to develop into the first single-celled organisms (we must assume that this process has begun in the first place), the need for information to describe the cells (cells are quite complex). This consists of, for instance, DNA. In order to make information useful, the information must be read. That requires the structures that will perform this action. However, if there is no information, the systems that interpret the information will not arise. That contradicts evolutionary theory. It seems that you are not willing to provide the adequate arguments in this debate, so you may consider capitulating. Side: creationism
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Oh no! It is possible that your arguments are being voted down because they are not adequate on a debating website such as this one. Perhaps you can discuss this myth on an ancient mythology website, because that would be more appropriate. You never provided a scientific refutation of my argument. I continued to repeat it in the most fundamental terms, but you seem unwilling to respond. Obviously, that it because there is no actual response to my assertions. Maybe you should also consider researching how to conduct the ad hominem fallacy because you are simply not succeeding. I am quite aware of the definitions pertaining to evolution. You have yet to provide any true refutation of my points, though I have noticed an effort to do so. And finally, a statement regarding the origin of life: as more complex molecules begin to develop into the first single-celled organisms (we must assume that this process has begun in the first place), the need for information to describe the cells (cells are quite complex). This consists of, for instance, DNA. In order to make information useful, the information must be read. That requires the structures that will perform this action. However, if there is no information, the systems that interpret the information will not arise. That contradicts evolutionary theory. It seems that you are not willing to provide the adequate arguments in this debate, so you may consider capitulating. Please create a new response which actually addresses the counterpoints I expressed. One which does not include magic. Side: evolutionism
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Interesting response. Let me explain some important facts. In these debates, you can support one of two sides. I certainly do not support evolutionary theory, so I am left with creationism. You may not be aware that the basic definition of "creationism" refers simply to the belief that an intelligent force created the universe and, by extension, life on earth. Earlier, you indicated in explicit terms your perception that I must be a Young-Earth Creationist who supports the position that six days were required for our reality to come about. However, this is a complete mis-characterization that is intended to distract from the scientific and logical flaws of your arguments. It is indeed you who has repeated your claims without attempting to refute mine. In fact, your arguments merely reflect the "talking points" that most proponents of evolutionary theory could be expected to utilize, which, as always, fail to explain the major issues that are quite present in your pseudoscience. Side: creationism
The fact is that no actual transition fossils have been found. Even the supposed "missing links" that are touted as the answer to the evolutionary chain are located before any transition forms would have been found in the evolutionary timeline. This statement is nonsensical. A "missing link" by definition is transitional. What transitional fossils would you be referring to? Side: evolutionism
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The Java Man, and the Peking man, are not species, they are individual fossil sets. Both Java Man and Peking man are Homo Erectus and their remains date back to 1 million years ago, while the Australopithecus dates to about 2.6 million years ago. I don't see what the conflict is. Side: evolutionism
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It continues to demonstrate that the fossil evidence that you have mentioned ceases to exist. Java Man consisted of bone fragments and was determined not to be related to be related to human species. Peking Man specimens' skulls were damaged in the same manner that the indigenous people hunted for monkeys, in addition to not being a verifiable hominid. Human remains were found in the same strata at the sites where both of the aforementioned fragments were found. Side: creationism
It continues to demonstrate that the fossil evidence that you have mentioned ceases to exist. How so? Java Man consisted of bone fragments and was determined not to be related to be related to human species. Determined by whom? You? Your creationist apologetic websites, perhaps. But not by the scientific community. Certainly not by any evolutionary biologist I am aware of. Bald assertions an argument, does not make. Peking Man specimens' skulls The fact that you pluralized this tells me you don't know what you're talking about. Peking Man is ONE specimen, of Homo Erectus, to date there have been at least 222 specimens found worldwide. Trying to disprove evolution, by showing that a single specimen of a single species isn't a human ancestor, is absurd and it makes you look like a buffoon. skulls were damaged in the same manner that the indigenous people hunted for monkeys What indigeounous people? Homo Erectus is found on three separate continents. I suggest you not use Creationist apologetic websites, they are very unreliable. Are you suggesting that the Homo Erectus is a monkey? Human remains were found in the same strata at the sites where both of the aforementioned fragments were found. Evidence? Side: evolutionism
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How so? It should be obvious when I say that there is no fossil evidence to support a theory that it means that the theory is not supported in that way and neither are any arguments to that effect. evolutionary biologist People who built their careers around a specific theory and have no desire to accept that it is false when proven thus? Your creationist apologetic websites, perhaps That is assuming that I use such websites. However, we may draw a parallel here. As you assert that I use these websites while having no evidence thereof, you also have an equivalent amount of evidence supporting evolutionary theory. The fact that you pluralized this tells me you don't know what you're talking about. Peking Man is ONE specimen, of Homo Erectus, to date there have been at least 222 specimens found worldwide. This suggests that you are not aware that multiple fragments were found at the Chinese site that gave Peking Man the nickname. Trying to disprove evolution, by showing that a single specimen of a single species isn't a human ancestor, is absurd and it makes you look like a buffoon. I have provided numerous arguments to such an effect. The one mentioned above simply refutes one of your points. What indigeounous people? Homo Erectus is found on three separate continents. I suggest you not use Creationist apologetic websites, they are very unreliable. The aforementioned fossil fragments indicate that the nature of the assumptions draw around them has no evidence to support it. The Peking Man fragments suggest massive differences between humans and homo erectus. http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/life/ This supports the notion of evolution but mentions humans found at the site. Side: creationism
It should be obvious when I say that there is no fossil evidence to support a theory that it means that the theory is not supported in that way and neither are any arguments to that effect How does the discovery of Java man and Peking man, cause fossil evidence to cease to exist? People who built their careers around a specific theory and have no desire to accept that it is false when proven thus? Well, whether or not Australopithecus was a human ancestor does fall into their field of study. So if 'scientists' are saying that it is no longer a human ancestor, then it would come from an evolutionary biologist. If not, then what credentials would one trust in certifying whether a species falls under a certain phylogenetic tree or not? You are insisting here, that it is their bias that prevents them from seeing the Australopithecus as something other than a human ancestor. Yet this supposed 'bias' did not prevent them from declaring the Homo Neanderthalensis as not an ancestor to humans. That is assuming that I use such websites. Tell me then, where is your source stating that skull damage to the Peking man was similar to the way that indigenous people hunted? Or is this as well un-evidenced? This suggests that you are not aware that multiple fragments were found at the Chinese site that gave Peking Man the nickname. It doesn't matter how many fragments you find, it's still only one specimen and one skull. I have provided numerous arguments to such an effect. The one mentioned above simply refutes one of your points. A fragment, is still a part of a whole. There is no reason to pluralize it. If you drop a ceramic plate and it shatters into 60 fragments, do you now have plates, or just 60 pieces of one plate? The aforementioned fossil fragments indicate that the nature of the assumptions draw around them has no evidence to support it Such as? The Peking Man fragments suggest massive differences between humans and homo erectus. Yes, because they are completely different species. You would expect to find numerous differences. A wolf has numerous differences from a Chihuahua, but one is still the descendant of the other. Your argument does not support your conclusion. This supports the notion of evolution but mentions humans found at the site. {sigh} By 'human' they mean: n. -A Member of genus homo The same article also refers to Peking Man as a human. They are not talking about homo sapiens, as most people use the word human to mean. Side: evolutionism
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How does the discovery of Java man and Peking man, cause fossil evidence to cease to exist? The earlier explanations (which I have no intention of reiterating here) demonstrate that it the evidence of human descent that you posit to exist does indeed not provide the necessary explanation. You are insisting here, that it is their bias that prevents them from seeing the Australopithecus as something other than a human ancestor. Yet this supposed 'bias' did not prevent them from declaring the Homo Neanderthalensis as not an ancestor to humans. They merely replaced it with something else. Tell me then, where is your source stating that skull damage to the Peking man was similar to the way that indigenous people hunted? Or is this as well un-evidenced? http://www.uiowa.edu/~bioanth/courses/ The fifth paragraph provides an accurate description. This also references nature of the injuries as being caused by humans. A fragment, is still a part of a whole. There is no reason to pluralize it. If you drop a ceramic plate and it shatters into 60 fragments, do you now have plates, or just 60 pieces of one plate? This is irrelevant. Yes, because they are completely different species. You would expect to find numerous differences. A wolf has numerous differences from a Chihuahua, but one is still the descendant of the other. Having been bred in such a manner, one would expect such differences, though they are different in nature than h. erectus and h. sapiens. Side: creationism
The earlier explanations (which I have no intention of reiterating here) demonstrate that it the evidence of human descent that you posit to exist does indeed not provide the necessary explanation. Your explanation is that there is no explanation? Brilliant argument, you've convinced me to become a creationist, where do I signup? They merely replaced it with something else. No, they simply recognizing it as being related to humans but not being their ancestor. The fifth paragraph provides an accurate description. This also references nature of the injuries as being caused by humans. The same article also says that the injuries are most likely the result of Hyenas. It also stated that most paleoanthropologists rejected the view that humans preyed upon Homo erectus. There is a little overlap between homo sapiens, and homo erectus, as the divergence of a new species does not necessarily mean the extinction of the parent species. Having been bred in such a manner, one would expect such differences, though they are different in nature than h. erectus and h. sapiens. I'm sure there are differences, but that doesn't exclude your argument from such poor logic. Side: evolutionism
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Whos to say god didnt creat threw evolution? he made the world and people and animals in only a few days but it aalso says that a day in heavin isnt equal to a day on earth. so whos to say that threw those few days we couldnt of evolved and been created that way? Im a die heart Catholic and that is my opion on the argument Side: creationism
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Whos to say god didnt creat threw evolution? God said that He created in six literal days. but it aalso says that a day in heavin isnt equal to a day on earth No it doesn't. Exodus 20: 11 For in six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, but he rested on the seventh day. Therefore the LORD blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy. This is in the Ten Commandments, don't let secular ideology infiltrate the Bible. Side: creationism
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well, aren't humans animals? Thus, since we come from our parents we come from animals? Also, your second sentence is a double negative, it is equivalent to saying "I believe I share something with animals". Context suggests one of the negatives should be a positive? In that case, you most certainly do share some things; such as breathing, living on earth but that isn't what you mean, I'm sure. What is this elitism so many seem to have? This sense of superiority over "animal"(what ever they mean by it?), I don't understand it. As for your third sentence, welcome to debate. Side: evolutionism
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"They haven't a scrap of true evidence yet they call us blind!" The National Academy of Sciences says otherwise, as does every reputable scientific organization in the world. I have to assume that you haven't read any of the plethora of books about evolution, nor studied the findings of paleontologists, microbiologists, etc. The fact that you have to get a new flu shot every year is evidence that evolution occurs - because the virus has evolved. (Viruses have shorter life spans, so it takes less time for significant evolutionary change to emerge in them.) Another great example of evolution in action is ring species. There's also the fact that every fossil is found in accordance with geography and chronological events (that is, they're all in the fossil record when and where we'd expect them to be). Add in the study of genetics, and you've got yourself an incredible array of evidence. Recommended Reading (concise list): The Greatest Show on Earth, Richard Dawkins; What Evolution Is, Ernest Mayr; The Ancestor's Tale, Richard Dawkins; Darwin's Dangerous Idea, Daniel Dennett; Why Darwin Matters, Michael Shermer; Science, Evolution, and Creationism, National Academy of Sciences (free and legal pdf is here - http://www.nap.edu/ Side: evolutionism
if there is evolution.. . why do we all keep on worshiping?? maybe this years monkeys should be endagered species caused of evolution... when i see ( for example : a frog give birth to a cat, ) then i believe in macro-evolution.. * i didn't saw ever since " a monkey give birth to human??? Side: creationism
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God created this world. Evolution makes no sense. You cant put bread,peanut butter, and jelly on a table and say make me a sandwich...It wont work And I suppose the inability to create a sandwhich via telepathy somehow deals a crushing blow to the evolutionary argument? Side: evolutionism
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Evolution is a process... not a belief system. So the term evolutionism doesn't make any sense. It's like creating an ideology based on Evolution. anyway, we see evolution happening constantly. Very well, we know that Natural Selection works because we see it happen over time. Be it technology from business or personalities from learning, people are adapting and becoming better. Not to mention that Evolution has a much larger basis than just some scripture. Science isn't some deceptive work. Science is merely the pursuit to gain knowledge about the things around us. Through it, we have discovered the theory of evolution. A brilliant theory that has been met with such hostility from people who are unwilling to accept that maybe things aren't like they always thought it was. From this same mindset, this is why there was so much hostility towards blacks during the Civil Rights movement or why the government rushes to banning any psychoactive substance that becomes really popular. Side: evolutionism
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You see natural selection CONSTANTLY. Which isn't denyable. NO ONE HAS SEEN EVOLUTION HAPPEN - the creation of a new species from another. The only constant is indoctrination. If you saw a frog turn into a bird it was because you need to get off the drugs. It takes as much or even more faith to believe evolution. A ton of details must be overlooked or hypothetically proposed. People believe what they believe or feel, some get emotionally tide on both sides. You must be the classic liberal to bring Civil right conversion into this one! Side: Creationism
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NO ONE HAS SEEN EVOLUTION HAPPEN - the creation of a new species from another. Actually you're wrong. Speciation has already been observed and documented. Only the willfuly ignorant choose to ignore it. "Macro evolution has never been observed" It takes as much or even more faith to believe evolution. A ton of details must be overlooked or hypothetically proposed It doesn't take any faith to believe in evolution. Belief in evolution is justified through evidence, experimentation, observation, the scientific method, and peer review. No details must be overlooked or hypothetically proposed. Look up the material you're trying to refute before making a fool out of yourself. You must be the classic liberal to bring Civil right conversion into this one! Since when is being "liberal" a bad thing? Side: Evolutionism
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Nautilus, I am sure you have been indoctrinated by the finest of schools. However, because we see species go through natural selection and stronger traits prevail does not mean we can leap to the conclusion that we came to be from sludge(ie mineral soup). Actually this first step from minerals to protein which all life is created is impossible. It is huge conundrum because cells need oxygen but oxygen destroys, I will let your brilliance research the details… I am not overly religious and have be through this process of indoctrination(elementary-college education) as well, and I find far less conclusive data on evolution. Forget man for a moment, show me bones of a giraffe or rhino that show that it was something else before it was a giraffe or rhino. You can’t. What about all the other species in the world that have “evolved” from some other species. Where are all these freaking bones! Dinosaurs did exist, something wiped them out and species do change and parish. BUT DARWINISM TAKES MORE FAITH THAN ALL RELIGIONS COMBINED. YOUR DISIPLE IS STILL A FLAWED HUMAN! Side: Creationism
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Cells do not need Oxygen. There are many cells that actually die from oxygen exposure. Many members of the kingdoms Monera and Archea and even Animalia do not require oxygen for survival. Extremophiles are Archea organisms that live in environmental extremes, such as inside volcanoes, where life normally wouldn't occur. And water is not oxygen. It has an oxygen atom, but the cell does not rely on the oxygen in water, it relies on the waters properties. Evolution does not claim life comes from this primordial ooze. That is abiogenesis, separate from evolution. Evolution is just how life changes once it is there, but it does not explain where that life came from. Evolution has been observed. It is fact. We have witnessed it. We have witness countless examples of speciation. But the reason we have never seen an 'amphibian become a reptile' because it takes far too long. We have proof that is did happen, called fossils. Maybe you should look them up. The giraffe has seven vertebrae in its neck, like most mammals. But its neck is so long. Why is that? Because of mutation and natural selection. And that is all evolution is. Evolution, at its most basic, is the combination of random mutation with non-random natural selection. Both work together. Dinosaurs still exist. We call them birds. The Velociraptor, a 6ft, 30 lbs predator from Cretaceous Mongolia, resembles a bird in many ways. It had feathers, in fact, it had complex feathers that modern birds utilize for flight. We know this because of the present of quill knobs on its arm. Though not all birds with flight feathers (flamingoes) have them, all birds with quill knobs, have feathers. If it were alive today, we would have called it a bird. A weird looking bird with claws and teeth, but it still superficially looked like a bird. Even Tyrannosaurus' ancestors had feathers. A relative a T. rex, just found recently, was covered in feathers and is the largest feathered animal known to have exist. It is called Yutyrannus, and it was 30ft long and weighed over a ton. Archaeopteryx is a prime example of a transitional fossil. It has many featured of a reptile. Teeth, claws, a reptile-like hip structure, but it also has many bird-like features, such as complex feathers, a wishbone, etc. Now, technically, all extinct species, except those that have no modern day descendants, are transitional forms, but that is beside the point. Evolution is one of the most well studied theories. It is one of the most widely supported theories. There is more evidence to support the Theory of Evolution then there is to support the Theory of Gravity. And to make it clear, a theory is an explanation of a naturally occurring phenomena. We know Gravity exists, but we don't care. We make theories to explain how it works. Same with evolution. We have both directly and indirectly observed Evolution, and we make a theory based on what we observe. That is science. The Theory Evolution had so much evidence that it is unlikely to change in the near future. Side: Evolutionism
Okay i was refering to the moderate creationist argument that god is the one who is the driving force behind evolution. By complicated i mean that you don't need god to guide evolution because evolution does not need god to guide it, god is an unnecessary hypothesis. But that is a different argument, since you are a biblical literalist, i will have to address that. Okay let's systematically tear down the creation story, yayyyyy. Okay so first off, there was light before there was a sun to make light. And apparently god made plants right away, even though the first fossil records of plants begin at abou 416 million years ago, although you probably think the earth is only 6000 years old. Unfortunately there is a little thing called carbon dating by which you can measure how old something by measuring the amount of decay in a radioactive substance in the rock layer, and it is a legitimate science and accurately predicts ages, such as that the earth is about 4.5 billion years old. Whether or not you accept it has no bearing on it being true. God apparently never made dinosaurs or every other species that is now extinct. Infact over 95% of all species that have ever existed are now extinct because they were not fit for survival in a changing world, so they died out and other evolved. God on the other hand, made everything just as it is now and all those extinct species never existed, because unfortunately, 4.5 billion year old human remains have not been found. I could go on for hours pointing out all of the discrepancies in the book of Genesis, but I am too lazy to type them all out. We know that the world was not created in 6 days, and your willful ignorance of scientific facts and advancements on our collective knowledge of a species does not change history for you fairytale. Side: evolutionism
While your information is almost entirely correct, you did make a slight semantic error: "Unfortunately there is a little thing called carbon dating by which you can measure how old something by measuring the amount of decay in a radioactive substance in the rock layer, and it is a legitimate science and accurately predicts ages, such as that the earth is about 4.5 billion years old." Carbon dating is only one of over 40 techniques in radiometric dating, and due to a short half-life is only used for spans of time of about 50,000 years. To go beyond that you use different methods of radiometric dating, although the general concept is pretty much identical. Side: evolutionism
Wow, I take it you're one of the friendlier debators who doesn't yell insults at Christians - cool! Ok, first of, you say that the first fossil records of plants begin at about 416 million years ago. Please give me several pieces of factual and proven evidence because otherwise, that could just be false. As for the bible, it does mention dinosaurs, but since there was no word back then in the Hebrew language for dinosaurs, they are labelled as "sea monsters" instead which is rather similar. You mention that there are many discrepincies in Genesis, please do mention them, I am a learning Christian and love to find out new information - good or bad; it helps me. As for "we know that the world was not created in 6 days" well, you think that perhaps, and other athiests, but not myself or thousands of other Christians. My willful ignorance? I could say the same to you. Side: creationism
In reference to the plants the book of genesis has this to say 1:12 And the earth brought forth grass, and herb yielding seed after his kind, and the tree yielding fruit, whose seed was in itself, after his kind: and God saw that it was good. although plants, from the kingdom plantae go back billions of years, those being simple single celled photosynthetic plants, the bible seems to be mentioning plants that have seeds, and according to the national geographic society (see link below) the first seed bearing plants evolved in the devonian era which began 416 million years ago. Could you please point out the passages in the bible where it references dinosaurs? or sea monsters as you translate it to be. What I am trying to get from this argument is that the major consensus among scientists (see link for evidence below, i can't list all scientists, this is just one journal) is that the dinosaurs died out about 65 million years ago, most likely by the effects of an asteroid impact with earth. Humans however the thing is most anthropologists and palentoligists believe humans originated somewhere out of east africa approximately 150 to 200 thousand years ago based on fossil records of early hominids in ethiopia and kenya. Now it seems to me that god couldn't have made humans in "the beginning" if dinosaurs existed millions of years before us, and were long gone by the time we got here, which wasn't at the beginning of earths formation. Okay as for discrepencies in genesis, here you go. http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/gen/ take a look through the many contradictions in genesis alone, don't shy away just because it is most likely a biased site but actually look at the evidence presented, if you have any problem with these points please feel free to let me know. On the topic of the creation of earth in 6 days versus billions of years there is an study put out by the academy of sciences, a fairly reputable organisation that has this to say on the creation of earth "The best estimates of Earth's age are obtained by calculating the time required for development of the observed lead isotopes in Earth's oldest lead ores. These estimates yield 4.54 billion years as the age of Earth and of meteorites, and hence of the solar system." Read through pages 3-8 in the article just to learn the scientific side of the story (http://www.nap.edu/ I wouldn't say i have such willful ignorance, i was raised catholic, went to church, read the bible many times over, and I also learned to question what I was told, think for myself and find real substantive answers with evidential support to the questions i had. The bible does have some great values for ways to live your life, but it is not a history textbook, nor a biology one. I have examined all sides of the argument and have no hesitation in expressing my support on the side of science. I look at the world, learn what I can and make my theories and views of the world upon that. I don't try to twist the world to adhere to a 2000 year old text from the people who thought the world was flat. I've done my research, but I can admit i will never understand the universe 100% and I am not willing to stop looking for answers to life, and I would rather die not knowing something, than make an answer up to satisfy my curiosity. (http://science.nationalgeographic.com/ (http://anthro.palomar.edu/homo2/ (http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/ (http://www.nap.edu/ Side: evolutionism
Ok, I wrote out a huge dispute but pressed a button and it all disappeared, so this is going to be rather brief, but I will answer your entire post. First off, I think my opening point was that you sent me a bunch of links stating x amount of time then providing no evidence for the time period listed. Their opening statements such as "... which was 46 billion years ago has ..." is of no use to me as that is focusing on WHAT existed 46 billion years ago and not focusing on the evidence to support such a statement. Please list links that supply useful factual evidence to support the time period given. Here is the passage about sea monsters: "God created the great sea monsters and every living creature that moves, with which the waters swarmed after their kind, and every winged bird after its kind; and God saw that it was good" Genesis 1:21. As for your statement "It seems to me that God couldn't have made humans in "the beginning" if dinosaurs existed millions of years before us..." is irrelevant as it is YOUR belief that dinosaurs existed millions of years before us therefore without evidence, your statement is worth nothing. As for the "discrepancies" I must confess I was rather looking forward to something a little more challenging, but their argument is so obviously flawed and rather a waste of time. However, it obviously isn't viewed that way to some, so I will correct their arguments with reasoning, logic and fact - something that they chose to chuck out the window. I will only include a few as there appear to be so many which are every one of them flawed and (their lack of logic actually astounds me). "How many God's are there?" - I choose to put this one first as it is, in my opinion, the most stupid mistake they made. "And God said, let us make man in our image" - the site obviously have not been introduced to what God actually is - Father, Son and Holy Spirit - The Trinity. God is three divine Persons, therefore "us" refers to the three divine Persons. That in itself is enough explanation for the list of verses they blindly included below this one. Something that I did find amusing is that they actually included this verse last: "For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one." They even included that which refutes their whole argument! I think I can understand why they included it last ... As for the verses that speak about the god's of Israel, these are referring to the idols that the Israelites created such as the golden calf which Moses (a servant of God) broke and burned to the ground. Second argument: "When was Eve created?" - Again, they make an obvious blunder; both verses clearly state that Eve was created second. "God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them". This verse is one of many short summary's that provide little detail due to the extensive detail Moses listed elsewhere. The 'opposing' verse they included was "And Adam gave names to all cattle, and to the fowl of the air, and to every beast of the field; but for Adam there was not found an help meet for him. And the LORD God caused a deep sleep to fall upon Adam, and he slept: and he took one of his ribs, and closed up the flesh instead thereof; And the rib, which the LORD God had taken from man, made he a woman, and brought her unto the man." Again, Eve was created second, but this verse describes the event in much more detail. Third argument: "Does God respect a person?" Again, obvious faults: The verses given to show that God does respect man are all OT, and the verses that show that God does not respect man are NT, bar the top one which does not even use the word respect. What does this say? The NT is the time and after the time that God sent His only Son who was rejected and crucified, the OT is the time before God sent His only Son. Major differences here, which are self-explanatory. Fourth argument: "What is the human lifespan?" The 'opposing' verse again is very obvious; "Yet his days..." ; there is an obvious "yet" which implies that although there is a shorter lifespan (70), the days shall be 120.., hence the reason it didn't just say 'and his days will be' – which would infer it to be the ‘normal’ lifespan - it is "yet his days will be". Fifth argument (last argument, if you want more, just holler): "Who created the heavens and the earth?" Ahh this one made me smile. The two arguments were a) "God" and b) "God and Jesus". Wow, they really haven't heard of the Trinity have they? The two are one, including the Holy Spirit which makes it three. Furthermore, their 'opposing' argument in no way supported its cause. The two verses were in relation to a completely different subject. It really was quite an experience reading the so-called "discrepancies" which I have heard so much about from atheists. A part of me guessed that the discrepancies would be very obviously flawed (which they were) but still, it was rather amusing. "take a look through the many contradictions in genesis alone, don't shy away just because it is most likely a biased site but actually look at the evidence presented, if you have any problem with these points please feel free to let me know" Well, I certainly did not shy away, nor did I even notice the title of the site, and yes I did find every argument that I clicked on to be flawed. I studied the evidence presented and read passages from the bible (the before and after verses of the provided) and thus I have come to the conclusion that the site wasted too much of my time. The link you gave me that supposedly tells a scientific story of how the world came about was typed in miniscule writing and I could not even find the theory or the pages you suggested I read. Is there a link on that link I am supposed to find? There was a page finder at the top so I fast forwarded to page three and I got a list of staff. Not sure what I am meant to be looking at... "I wouldn't say i have such wilful ignorance, i was raised catholic, went to church, read the bible many times over, and I also learned to question what I was told, think for myself and find real substantive answers with evidential support to the questions i had. The bible does have some great values for ways to live your life, but it is not a history textbook, nor a biology one. I have examined all sides of the argument and have no hesitation in expressing my support on the side of science. I look at the world, learn what I can and make my theories and views of the world upon that. I don't try to twist the world to adhere to a 2000 year old text from the people who thought the world was flat. I've done my research, but I can admit i will never understand the universe 100% and I am not willing to stop looking for answers to life, and I would rather die not knowing something, than make an answer up to satisfy my curiosity" Well, nor am I wilfully ignorant. I love to learn new things and never "shy away" from the scriptures as I know they are true. Many Christians that became atheists say they read their bibles and discovered "discrepancies" thus becoming an atheist. It is these people I have no respect for due to their obvious lack of faith that they had (or rather, didn't have!), their obvious non-existent relationship with God, who is the centre of my faith and any other true Christian's faith, and finally the lack of time they put into their relationship with God as opposed to the time they put into seeking out faults in His Word. Of course, there are some who stopped believing for various other reasons, and those people I do not have anything against. I too have done my research and I have to say the most interesting, obviously true, meaningful and best-spent timed research I ever found was between the front and back covers of my bible. Of course, everyone differs here; some may have a scientific textbook that they find to be meaningful and obviously true, others may find the words of a specific scientist to be meaningful and obviously true, but I personally find the Word of God to be the most reliant account of how this world began. P.S. You are the most decent person I have debated with yet. Side: creationism
5
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irst off, I think my opening point was that you sent me a bunch of links stating x amount of time then providing no evidence for the time period listed. http://www.ucmp.berkeley.edu/plants/plantaefr.html http://www.ucmp.berkeley.edu/seedplants/ A pretty picture: http://www.fossilmuseum.net/fossil-art/ And to facilitate this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Devonian And to demand evidence (which is notwithstanding forthcoming) from us is a little hypocritical, as all you cite is a book written before natural philosophy even began. is irrelevant as it is YOUR belief that dinosaurs existed millions of years before us therefore without evidence, your statement is worth nothing. The existence of dinosaurs is a scientific fact. Thousands of palaeontologists have laboured for over a century to produce incredible volumes of fossils, which can be dated to an era millions of years older than any human fossils. http://www.suite101.com/paleontology I must confess I was rather looking forward to something a little more challenging, but their argument is so obviously flawed and rather a waste of time. You haven't yet addressed any argument. You've simply quoted a book which has been proved to be erroneous (most saliently by the links above). "How many God's are there?" - I choose to put this one first as it is, in my opinion, the most stupid mistake they made. "And God said, let us make man in our image" - the site obviously have not been introduced to what God actually is - Father, Son and Holy Spirit - The Trinity. God is three divine Persons, therefore "us" refers to the three divine Persons. That in itself is enough explanation for the list of verses they blindly included below this one. Something that I did find amusing is that they actually included this verse last: "For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one." They even included that which refutes their whole argument! I think I can understand why they included it last ... As for the verses that speak about the god's of Israel, these are referring to the idols that the Israelites created such as the golden calf which Moses (a servant of God) broke and burned to the ground. Second argument: "When was Eve created?" - Again, they make an obvious blunder; both verses clearly state that Eve was created second. "God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them". This verse is one of many short summary's that provide little detail due to the extensive detail Moses listed elsewhere. The 'opposing' verse they included was "And Adam gave names to all cattle, and to the fowl of the air, and to every beast of the field; but for Adam there was not found an help meet for him. And the LORD God caused a deep sleep to fall upon Adam, and he slept: and he took one of his ribs, and closed up the flesh instead thereof; And the rib, which the LORD God had taken from man, made he a woman, and brought her unto the man." Again, Eve was created second, but this verse describes the event in much more detail. Third argument: "Does God respect a person?" Again, obvious faults: The verses given to show that God does respect man are all OT, and the verses that show that God does not respect man are NT, bar the top one which does not even use the word respect. What does this say? The NT is the time and after the time that God sent His only Son who was rejected and crucified, the OT is the time before God sent His only Son. Major differences here, which are self-explanatory. Fourth argument: "What is the human lifespan?" The 'opposing' verse again is very obvious; "Yet his days..." ; there is an obvious "yet" which implies that although there is a shorter lifespan (70), the days shall be 120.., hence the reason it didn't just say 'and his days will be' – which would infer it to be the ‘normal’ lifespan - it is "yet his days will be". Fifth argument (last argument, if you want more, just holler): "Who created the heavens and the earth?" Ahh this one made me smile. The two arguments were a) "God" and b) "God and Jesus". Wow, they really haven't heard of the Trinity have they? The two are one, including the Holy Spirit which makes it three. Furthermore, their 'opposing' argument in no way supported its cause. The two verses were in relation to a completely different subject. Two can play at this game. Upon what evidence do you base these claims, other than your manifesto (the bible)? How did you come to the conclusion you have expounded upon above? Have you submitted this hypothesis to a rigorous examination, cross-referenced with established philosophical principles? It really was quite an experience reading the so-called "discrepancies" which I have heard so much about from atheists. A part of me guessed that the discrepancies would be very obviously flawed (which they were) but still, it was rather amusing. As brevity is the soul of wit, I'll deal with only one discrepancy: why does the Book of Genesis state that humans were created less than one week after the Earth was initially formed, when the Earth was uninhabitable for billions of years after its formation by accretion? In your answer, do not include any quotations from the bible. This is a purely rational exercise. The link you gave me that supposedly tells a scientific story of how the world came about was typed in miniscule writing and I could not even find the theory or the pages you suggested I read. Is there a link on that link I am supposed to find? There was a page finder at the top so I fast forwarded to page three and I got a list of staff. Not sure what I am meant to be looking at... Grow up and find it yourself. The information is easily accessible by Google, and we cannot be expected to spoon feed it to you constantly. I... never "shy away" from the scriptures as I know they are true. How? It is these people I have no respect for due to their obvious lack of faith Faith is a weasel-word for gullibility. Of course, everyone differs here; some may have a scientific textbook that they find to be meaningful and obviously true Scientific textbooks contain knowledge. That is why rational people find them appealing. Scientists have observed the world and deduced how it works. You should not view science as dogma. Scientific models are given a far more rigorous scrutiny by the scientists themselves than you could ever hope to muster. Natural philosophers simply do not accept something until it is proven. I do not believe it is within my power to make these points in a more concise and succinct manner. I have sacrificed the usual flow of my diction and rendered some short, ugly sentences above to help you. but I personally find the Word of God to be the most reliant account of how this world began. That is because it appeals to you. Scientists care nothing for whether the truth is appealing or not, but incessantly contrive to establish it. Your religious beliefs are irrelevant to me; evolution is an established scientific theory, supported by scientific studies and experiments, has been directly observed in vitro and in vivoand does not conflict with other philosophical principles. The burden of proof is on you now, and you are clinging to your bible because you don't find the truth appealing, or can't admit that you're wrong. Grow up. Side: evolutionism
"Upon what evidence do you base these claims, other than your manifesto (the bible)? How did you come to the conclusion you have expounded upon above? Have you submitted this hypothesis to a rigorous examination, cross-referenced with established philosophical principles?" You want the truth? I have been reading my bible for many, many years now, and I have done quite a bit of research in addition. When I clicked on the link that lead me to the site you provided, I proved wrong five of the arguments with my logic and common sense. They attempted to point out the "discrepancies" in Genesis and in each argument they made one or more obvious blunders that blew their argument to pieces. I didn't base my answers on bible verses, that is what they did. I based my answers on knowledge and logic, something (as I said before) they chose to chuck out the window. "why does the Book of Genesis state that humans were created less than one week after the Earth was initially formed, when the Earth was uninhabitable for billions of years after its formation by accretion? In your answer, do not include any quotations from the bible. This is a purely rational exercise" Sure. I will not include verses from the bible as I am sure it is the last thing an atheist would want to read. I guess whatever I say you will dispute but I will answer anyhow, with a short and precise answer: it is your belief that the earth was uninhabitable for billions of years, not mine. Therefore my argument differs immensly to yours as man was made on the sixth day, not the 10 billionth day. "Grow up and find it yourself. The information is easily accessible by Google, and we cannot be expected to spoon feed it to you constantly" It is my experience that when debating it is not the opposition's duty to find evidence that is against what he/she believes, therefore if you want to convince me of something, it is you who should supply the evidence, vice versa. "How?" How do I know it is true? Several reasons. But, is there any point in me listing them to an atheist? What particular aspect of my faith that I believe to be true do you want explained? Perhaps, the scriptures as that is what I mentioned before you asked "how". God tells us to believe and trust Him, so that has always been my first step. Secondly, I have a relationship with God; it is something that I wouldn't know where to begin to explain to an atheist. Thirdly, there are hundreds of fullfilled prophecies in the bible; more than 300 prophecies were fullfilled by Christ Himself when He came here. Fourthly, the unique structure of the bible never ceases to amaze me; the 66 books written over an extensive time period yet in perfect unity with each other (regardless of the false arguments men invent which can be proved wrong in the space of around seven seconds - five seconds for the page to load and two to prove him wrong). Fifthly ... - wait I said I'd make it short, so I'll stop here. "Faith is a weasel-word for gullibility" Some would say that, sure. What about faith that manages to save lives and lead men through hellish circumstances? Is that kind of faith weasel-like? I think not. I am not about to reveal my life story, but I have been through hellish curcumstances that doctors wonder how I survived and I am not a physically strong person, but my faith was as strong as a rock. Faith is not a word that should be labelled as weasle-like, I assure you. As for the gullible part, any man who has no faith may say that, but that does not make it correct. For example, if I tell you that this site is really incredible, that does not make it correct, and you may think that this site is rather dull. Just because words are spoken aloud, that does not make them accurate. "Scientific textbooks contain knowledge. That is why rational people find them appealing" I agree; I studied Psychology for a time and was buried behind the pages of my textbook at every opportunity I could get. Again, I would have to state here that my Bible contains knowledge, and that is why I, a rational person, find it appealing. "You should not view science as dogma" I agree, and nor do I view it as such. Although I am not an extreme fan of science, I do however find scientific facts of great interest; my science volumes are proof of that. "That is because it appeals to you" You have to be very careful when making such a statement; I am not some blinded person that believes because I do not want to go to hell and that is it, I believe because I want to be with Christ for eternity. You view my beliefs and automatically assume I am believing a fairytale because it is pink and wrapped in a little pink bow. I cannot tell you how wrong you are; like I said, I have been in certain situations where I was almost killed, I have been through things that not many have experienced, my faith has not always been an easy ride. I ask you not to put me in the same basket as others who call themselves Christians yet are not fit to hold such a title; I am nothing like them. "The burden of proof is on you now, and you are clinging to your bible because you don't find the truth appealing, or can't admit that you're wrong. Grow up."
Wrong, the burden of proof is on you. It is you who keeps failing to provide evidence, it is you who failed to recognize that I provided a large list of logic that prove your arguments on Genesis wrong, it is you who appeals to authority and are unable to stand on your own two feet lest you fall. That is what LACK of faith is - fear. As for me, I am standing on my own two feet providing reasoning from my own brain that makes a whole lot more sense than the mumbo-jumbo you talk and when you are asked for evidence, you cannot provide the sufficient facts so instead you turn the tables round asking irrelevant questions which also fails to work as I am the one on my feet. Furthermore, your links are still stating x amount of time ago and instead of giving evidence for the x amount of time given, it goes on to describe what it was that was discovered. Evidence is what I want, not a story, evidence for the time. As for truth being appealing, I find the truth more than appealing which is why I have so much faith in it. I think it is you who needs to grow up, grow a backbone and get those feet planted firmly. I can assure you, God won't let you down if you let Him help you up. Side: creationism
2
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You want the truth? An earnest question always seeks the truth. I have been reading my bible for many, many years now, and I have done quite a bit of research in addition. When I clicked on the link that lead me to the site you provided, I proved wrong five of the arguments with my logic and common sense. They attempted to point out the "discrepancies" in Genesis and in each argument they made one or more obvious blunders that blew their argument to pieces. I didn't base my answers on bible verses, that is what they did. I based my answers on knowledge and logic, something (as I said before) they chose to chuck out the window. The links I gave you simply evidenced the existence of plants in the Devonian era, and demonstrated the huge volume of research and other efforts that have gone into palaeontology. But then, you know more about the history of the Earth than all the people who actually study it, don't you? Have a shiny star. Sure. I will not include verses from the bible as I am sure it is the last thing an atheist would want to read. I've read it. It's horsecrap. it is your belief that the earth was uninhabitable for billions of years, not mine. I didn't think I was arguing with a cave man. If you want to deny every scientific fact that contradicts your misguided beliefs, then that is your business; just don't expect anybody of rational persuasion to take you seriously. Therefore my argument differs immensly to yours as man was made on the sixth day, not the 10 billionth day. You don't have an argument. All you have done is assert that X was so, because X is your belief. You haven't provided one shred of evidence (and a manifesto is not evidence) to support you claims, nor any rationality or logic. Then you look down on everybody who isn't as gullible and narrow-minded as you are; it's incredible. It is my experience that when debating it is not the opposition's duty to find evidence that is against what he/she believes, therefore if you want to convince me of something, it is you who should supply the evidence, vice versa. You are supposed to enter the debate with a decent or elementary knowledge of what you are disputing. How else can you have decided that it was wrong? How do I know it is true? Several reasons. But, is there any point in me listing them to an atheist? Translation: I have no credible reasons, but wish it to appear that I in fact have reasons beyond your comprehension. God tells us to believe and trust Him, so that has always been my first step. Secondly, I have a relationship with God; it is something that I wouldn't know where to begin to explain to an atheist. Those are the same reasons, and are self-referential. It is essentially saying that "I believe in God because I believe I have a relationship with God". Nonsense. Thirdly, there are hundreds of fullfilled prophecies in the bible; more than 300 prophecies were fullfilled by Christ Himself when He came here. "The bible contains prophecies, which later sections of the bible then assert were fulfilled". More self-referential nonsense. Fourthly, the unique structure of the bible never ceases to amaze me; the 66 books written over an extensive time period yet in perfect unity with each other "The structure of the bible is appealing, therefore it must be the incontrovertible truth". Plain ridiculous. For example, if I tell you that this site is really incredible, that does not make it correct, and you may think that this site is rather dull. Just because words are spoken aloud, that does not make them accurate. Not even close to saying that "This site is actually a deity, responsible for the creation of all life in the universe". We are not discussing the validity of subjective opinions, we are discussing which school of thought is the objective truth. Again, I would have to state here that my Bible contains knowledge, and that is why I, a rational person, find it appealing. One's opinions cannot be both rational and faithful. You have to be very careful when making such a statement; I am not some blinded person that believes because I do not want to go to hell and that is it, I believe because I want to be with Christ for eternity. If you want to spend eternity with Christ, then this future appeals to you. Therefore, if you believe that this is to be because you want to be with Christ, you believe because it appeals to you. Although I am not an extreme fan of science Then you are an idiot. The contributions of science to mankind's situation are incalculable. You view my beliefs and automatically assume I am believing a fairytale because it is pink and wrapped in a little pink bow. I suspect that they are a fairytale because you will not even accept rational arguments to the contrary, you reference nothing but your manifesto, you affect contempt for everybody who does not share your delusions, whether they have good reason to or not; you flatly deny scientific facts, your beliefs themselves contradict multiple philosophical principles... I cannot tell you how wrong you are Because I am not. like I said, I have been in certain situations where I was almost killed, I have been through things that not many have experienced, my faith has not always been an easy ride. I care nothing for your little life or its vagaries; they are entirely irrelevant. I ask you not to put me in the same basket as others who call themselves Christians yet are not fit to hold such a title; I am nothing like them. I don't put you into the "Christian" basket. You go into the "Lunatic" basket. Wrong, the burden of proof is on you. It is you who keeps failing to provide evidence I posted several links, all of which provided what you sought. Perhaps you should try reading them. I have read your bible, perhaps you should read "The Origin of Species". Unlike your manifesto, mine is rational; it is supported by Mr. Darwin's observations. Then, I would point you to the work of Mr. Mendel. He introduced the concept of genetics. Genes are proven to exist, they are proven to be passed from parents to offspring; essentially to deny these basic facts is the imposthume of wanton ignorance. Evolution is a model which shows how these traits determine an organism's ability to survive in a given environment, and how traits which improve these capabilities can be acquired. I just don't understand on what basis you deny these theories. I think it is you who needs to grow up, grow a backbone and get those feet planted firmly Part of growing up is recognising that fairytales like Santa Claus, the tooth fairy, the Easter Bunny and God are fabricates nonsense. Side: evolutionism
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I support you fully in every way. however you did not comment on whether creationism and evolutionism could be two parts of the same story? that is what i believe i am just curious for your opinion on the idea that god not only created us but created us in order to evolve. Side: creationism
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however you did not comment on whether creationism and evolutionism could be two parts of the same story? That's just unnecessary pandering to religious sensitivities. Evolution does not require creationism, and there is no evidence to support creationism. It is simply an empty hypothesis to state that they are two parts of one story. Side: evolutionism
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No evolution may not require creationism but it may have been a factor. That is impossible. Evolution and Creation are mutually exclusive. if you ask any scientist they will tell you that you must look at all possibilities. Except that Creation as described in the bible is not a possibility, as it conflicts with what is now understood about the evolution of life. just because something is not required does not mean it does not exist to effect life. If it is not required, is not logical, conflicts with current understanding and is not proven, it cannot be considered anything more than fallacious conjecture. Side: evolutionism
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You wrote a huge dispute and this was the brief version..... holy crap. Anyways... i don't know if made a typo or you misread but the date the devonian era (when seed bearing plants first appeared) started was 146 million years ago, not 46 million. Okay well NerdvanaGirl made a good response highlighting the scientific and organisations who support the position of evolution and the fact that the world is 4.5 billion years old. However you seem to want more proof, and I can only guess you mean you want the raw studies and data and the theories that prove these positions, how they work, etc etc. I will try my best to find these specific pieces of information and explain them to you but these types of things just aren’t that easy to find. I have found one such site (http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/ Okay for your passage about sea monsters "God created the great sea monsters and every living creature that moves, with which the waters swarmed after their kind, and every winged bird after its kind; and God saw that it was good" Genesis 1:21, this doesn’t mention dinosaurs, only what you consider to be a sea monster. Aside from the fact that dinosaurs also existed on land, there is undeniable fossil evidence for that (unless you just say it’s fake… which it isn’t), this doesn’t mean dinosaurs. Isn’t it more likely that the when the people who wrote this book said sea monsters, they meant things like whales and sharks and giant squids, than dinosaurs. It seems like the gap from this quote of sea monsters to the bible recognized dinosaurs is too wide for me to bridge. I’m not going to rebuttal all of the rebuttals you made against the points raised by the sceptic’s annotated bible for discrepancies in the book of genesis simply because I do not have time to do in-depth factual double rebuttals for that many points. I’ll admit that many of them are weak but there are several instances in the bible, like I pointed out and thoroughly explained above, of scientific and logical failings. Sorry if you couldn’t access the document put out by the national academy of sciences, I see what page you went to and it wasn’t the correct one so don’t fret. Here is the link again (http://www.nap.edu/ There was one statement of yours I found kind of odd, here it is, “and finally the lack of time they put into their relationship with God as opposed to the time they put into seeking out faults in His Word”. If god really is god, then why would there be flaws in his world, if god is perfect, why would his work be anything less than perfect either. I mean he created it 100% on his own and there were still mistakes? This just seems somewhat antithetical to your overall notion that god is perfect and loving. And if you say there are faults because he created humans with free will who could choose to do evil, then our biology is at fault the faults in the world, and god is at fault for our biology, therefore god is still accountable for the faults in his world. For my final remarks what I have to say is that I am atheist not solely because I don’t like a book, a religion is more than that. And I am not atheist in the sense that I know there isn’t a god, because it is impossible to prove or disprove god, god is an unfalsifiable hypothesis, much like the claim that I can fly when no one is looking. But my understanding, and mankind’s collective understanding of the universe is enough on its own for me to explain reality and the world around me. God, to me, is an unnecessary hypothesis and I do not see the need to include him in my world view, and until some real evidence comes along to persuade me otherwise I won’t believe in God any more than I will believe in Zeus, leprechauns or a slim American. PS – just kidding about the Americans, I know they aren’t all fat. And thanks for the comment… as long as you weren’t being sarcastic (I find it tough to distinguish sarcasm in text), and the same to you as well. Side: evolutionism
"i don't know if made a typo or you misread but the date the devonian era (when seed bearing plants first appeared) started was 146 million years ago, not 46 million" I don't care what it was; it was without evidence therefore irrelevant. As for the other contributor, I didn't read that post, I am debating you not her. As for the link you sent, I don't want an explanation on the origins of the earth, I want evidence for the dates you listed in your first couple of posts. " However this point and some of the specifics, methodology and theory is beyond my comprehension or ability to research" That is fine, all I want is evidence for a couple of discoveries of dinosaurs that you mentioned in your post that dated back a few million/billion/trillion years ago or whatever time period you listed. "If the bible, a book supposedly written by god, can make mistakes, then I don’t believe I can trust it" The bible does not make mistakes, therefore you can trust it. "(side note, Science does make mistakes as well, but the difference is that they will admit their mistakes and pursue higher knowledge, because they are not interested in protecting their own ego, but interested in truth. To admit there are mistakes in the bible would mean god could be wrong, and since god can’t be wrong you must go against everything that contradicts the bible if you are to believe its validity). " You seem to have a major issue with your belief that I am afraid to admit being wrong. You mentioned this in your previous post also. In the last 48 hours, a debater here on this site proved me wrong, and I admitted to being wrong and thanked him for setting me right. It was on the matter of God "abhorring" men in the OT; I had previously stated that God did not hate any man, but after this debater sent a post with a verse included from the bible stating that God could hate man, I spent over two hours researching and reading my bible before finally realizing and admitting to being wrong. It is in no way difficult for me to admit being wrong; I believe that the mistakes that I make are my path to success (only if I learn from them obviously). Furthermore, I am the type of person who appreciates being pushed in the right direction as I would hate to be sitting in the wrong seat. The link you sent me below is faulty. I tried deleting the bracket on the end and replacing it with a slash but still had no success. Please send again or tell me what to type into youtube which is probably the better and more likely to work option. " Isn’t it more likely that the when the people who wrote this book said sea monsters, they meant things like whales and sharks and giant squids, than dinosaurs" No; in Job, it speaks about the behemoth which is said to be the mightiest of all God's creatures; some scientists say it may have just been an elephant or hippopotamus but both those animals tend to have very thin tails whereas the behemoth had a tail that was likened to a cedar tree. Dinosaurs like the brachiosaurus and the diplodocus had tails that could very easily be compared to a cedar tree. Another fact relating to "sea monsters" is what I said before but I will elaborate here. There was no word in the Hebrew language for "dinosaur" at that time, so they replaced it with "tanniyn" which is translated in generally three ways in our English bibles; sometimes it is "sea monster" or "serpent" but most often it is "dragon". "If god really is god, then why would there be flaws in his world, if god is perfect, why would his work be anything less than perfect either. I mean he created it 100% on his own and there were still mistakes?" This is a whole other debate and to get into it now would leave this current debate unfinished, and I'm not ready to abandon it when we are both so heatedly in the middle of it. But, after this, I would gladly debate it as I admire your debating attitude and your fight is clearly genuine. Besides, if we debate this as well as the other debate, our posts would be miles long and the debate would become difficult to cover all posts/points and time is an issue – plus the quality of our posts would go way down. After this debate, I will gladly debate that topic. "For my final remarks what I have to say is that I am atheist not solely because I don’t like a book, a religion is more than that. And I am not atheist in the sense that I know there isn’t a god, because it is impossible to prove or disprove god, god is an unfalsifiable hypothesis, much like the claim that I can fly when no one is looking. But my understanding, and mankind’s collective understanding of the universe is enough on its own for me to explain reality and the world around me. God, to me, is an unnecessary hypothesis and I do not see the need to include him in my world view, and until some real evidence comes along to persuade me otherwise I won’t believe in God any more than I will believe in Zeus, leprechauns or a slim American" I totally understand that, many of my friends believe the same way as you do in that area hence the reason my faith appears as blind faith, as it does to you. "PS – just kidding about the Americans, I know they aren’t all fat. And thanks for the comment… as long as you weren’t being sarcastic (I find it tough to distinguish sarcasm in text), and the same to you as well." I wouldn't know if they are fat or skinny, I don't live there. My comment was not sarcastic; I meant it. There are so many debaters that throw the rules out the window or they go over the top with obsession in technicalities which makes debating a bore. P.S. - I know I am supposed to be offended by the "holy crap" remark at the top of your post but I found it rather a clever pun! Lol. P.P.S - The link you sent in the last post was faulty too as I pointed out and you said in this post it had been a faulty link or the wrong page or something and you sent a different one that you had meant to send. It is still not opening up? My internet says the page cannot be opened? Side: creationism
Okay to start off, the Devonian era spans from about 416 – 359 million years ago and pteridosperms were the first plants with real seeds, and these plants came around at the latter part of the Devonian, so I was a bit off there, but still, it is no 6000 years. You don’t seem to be able to open the links I send you so if this doesn’t work, google pteridosperms and click the second result, you should be able to match the url’s anyways. http://www.uni-muenster.de/ If you want some evidence of dinosaurs, plants, etc and the general timeline of earth’s history as scientists accept it to be just follow this link http://science.nationalgeographic.com/ Okay for you claim that the bible does not make mistakes, what about the two cases I brought up last time. I will repost both of them and show you how to get to my other link. First off is the bats are not birds as the bible claims them to be. Leviticus 11: 13-19 tells me bats are birds, the word fowl means bird and we know that bats are not birds because they produce milk for their young (key feature of mammals), they do not have feathers, and their wing is anatomically different from a birds, Google image it if you want. I don’t know if you are familiar with the scientific classification of species but bird and bats both belong to the kingdom of Anamalia. Bats and birds both belong to the phylum chordate, meaning they have vertebrae. However birds belong to the class aves while bats belong to the class mammalia. The biological classification of birds and bats proves that bats are not birds, therefore the bible is wrong. The other point I had for the bible making a mistake was Noah’s ark. Now I will link the youtube video again. http://www.youtube.com/ “You seem to have a major issue with your belief that I am afraid to admit being wrong.” I don’t have a problem with you admitting you are wrong, you are human, and obviously you have been wrong before and admitted it. It’s about people admitting the bible can be wrong and it is not perfect. That’s what most of my arguments are getting to, they are to prove that there are parts of the bible that cannot be true. The bible has faulty facts, history, geology, and biology in it and I am trying to prove that by showing how they contradict scientific discoveries. Just because someone writes something in a book doesn’t make it true, and some of the things in the bible (the cases I am debating above) are not true. My cases are made to discredit the bible so it cannot be used as a rebuttal, such as in the evolution debate. You use the bible to support creationism but it's like a court trial, the bible is your witness and I am trying to discredit him by showing how he does not always tell the truth. Okay for the passage in Job you brought where god describes something that could be an elephant until it mentions it has a ceder -thick tail. The rebuttal I have to this is that it was made up. I can hypothesize this because this is a case where what the book says doesn’t match reality. First off, you can refer back to the timeline I gave you on the national geographic website that shows that’s dinosaurs died out millions of years before primitive humans ever existed. Another thing is that there is not a shred of evidence to suggest that dinosaurs and humans lived at the same time. No cave drawings, no evidence of humans hunting dinosaurs (tools marks on bones), no evidence of human remains being found in the same geologic strata as dinosaurs. If you would like to search for some evidence to the contrary be my guest, but you will have a hard time finding it because it just doesn’t exist. There are plenty of stories in medieval Europe of dragons, wizards and witches, but no evidence to support it. Therefore we can conclude that they are simply fiction. The only difference between the medieval stories and Job’s is that Job’s is in the bible so it is given some weight. But the fact remains that there is no physical evidence to support it. PS – no offence intended by the holy crap, just a figure of speech. Anyways since you apparently can’t open the link I sent you I will give it to you again, http://www.nap.edu/ “The term "evolution" usually refers to the biological evolution of living things. But the processes by which planets, stars, galaxies, and the universe form and change over time are also types of "evolution." In all of these cases there is change over time, although the processes involved are quite different.” Click the link, 3rd down I think, that matches the url and use the instruction I gave you last time to navigate to the area I was referring to. Side: evolutionism
“Okay to start off, the Devonian era spans from about 416 – 359 million years ago and pteridosperms were the first plants with real seeds, and these plants came around at the latter part of the Devonian, so I was a bit off there, but still, it is no 6000 years” Still irrelevant; it is a statement without evidence there for useless. The study you sent just after this was again more of the same; it provided a study of a plant and the closest it got to evidence was telling us the quality of pictures found without actually providing any of these pictures. I want evidence for - dates that is all. The timeline you sent was more of the same also; it told me when the earth came about without giving any evidence for the time period given – this too was the case with the dinosaur page; it gave me a date of when the dinosaurs first began and instead of backing that up with evidence, they start to tell me how large they were and what their claws looked like. I am not interested in descriptions; I want evidence for the dates you gave me. “Not only do they reference the generalities of what is going on at the time, but they give specific example of certain creatures or organisms present in those times” Sure, they tell me that dinosaurs roamed the earth millions of years ago and tell me what size of feet they had and what they ate. I could easily make such a statement but, as they do, I would appear completely stupid as I give no evidence for such a statement. “Okay for you claim that the bible does not make mistakes, what about the two cases I brought up last time. I will repost both of them and show you how to get to my other link. First off is the bats are not birds as the bible claims them to be” I apologize for not covering this point in my last post – I remember reading it but must have completely forgotten and been caught up in another point you made. Here I will cover this. Moses listed the animals that were clean and unclean, and when he began listing the birds, he included the bat which would imply that he believed a bat to be a bird. Since we know that a bat is not a bird, does this make the bible incorrect? No; modern times have categorized animals far more specifically than they did thousands of years ago resulting in the bat being categorized as a mammal not a bird. Modern science has a far different classification system than ancient times; in Moses’ time, birds and bats were seen as alike since they categorized all flying animals as birds. Since that is the category they used, they were correct. There is no error; it is a difference of categorization procedures and time. The modern critic has imposed on the ancient text a modern system of categorization and then stated that the bible is wrong – this is a big error in thinking. Again, I apologize for not covering this point in my last post. Ok, your second point on Noah’s ark. So firstly, how could Noah round up all these animals and get them into the ship? Noah didn’t round them up, they came to him instead. Although this is hard for many to believe and would have been a supernatural sight to see, it is said that it would have been as though the animals were called by a “homing instinct” – a behaviour planted in them by their Creator. This event in history is an event that cannot be explained by our limited understanding of nature; we are still understanding all the incredible animal behaviours exhibited in God’s creation: the amazing flights of Monarch butterflies, hibernation instincts, earthquake sensitivity, the migration of Canada geese and other birds, the annual travels of whale and fish, and countless other fascinating capabilities of God’s animal kingdom. Secondly, your link states that fresh water animals could not have survived in salt water as the ocean spread across land. “Any suggestion that fresh water fish could not have survived in a post flood world assumes three things not in evidence: 1) that the salinity of the oceans and seas in Noah’s day was the same as the salinity of those today 2) that fresh water fish cannot live in diluted salt water and 3) that the ability of water living creatures in Noah’s day to survive in saline environments was the same as that of creatures found in today’s oceans and seas. So the first assumption does not agree with the available scientific evidence. Based on a study of various factors of the past and present, some scientists believe that the salinity of the oceans may have been one-half of what they are currently (see, for example, Austin and Humphreys, 1990, 2:27, and Walter Lammerts as quoted in Whitcomb and Morris, 1961, p. 70). There is no reason that the fresh-water fish of Noah’s day could not have survived, provided the salinity of the waters was less than it is today. Leonard Brand has noted: “[W]e would expect changes in the chemistry of seas and lakes—from mixing fresh and salt water.... Each species of aquatic organism would have its own physiological tolerance for these changes” (1997, p. 283). In addition, as Brand commented regarding the fresh/salt water mixture that would have ensued during and immediately after the Flood: “[T]he less dense fresh water may not mix quickly with the salt water and it stays on top long enough to provide a temporary refuge for fresh-water organisms. Perhaps, too, many animals have a greater potential for adaptation to changing water conditions than we have recognized” (1997, p. 301-302). The second assumption—that fresh-water fish cannot live in diluted salt water—is now known to be false, as Whitcomb and Morris point out as long ago as 1961 in their classic text, The Genesis Flood (p. 387, footnote). The third assumption—that the ability of water-living creatures in Noah’s day to survive in saline environments was the same as that of creatures found in today’s oceans and seas—similarly is known to be incorrect. Many fresh-water fish have relatives that once lived in saline environments (see Batten and Sarfati, 2000). Furthermore, even today there are fish (e.g., large-mouth bass) that thrive in brackish waters such as those where the Mississippi River dumps its fresh water into the salt water of the Gulf of Mexico. Thus, in the end, the skeptics’ claim that Noah’s ark likely included giant fish tanks is wrong.” This excerpt proves your comedy video very wrong, providing evidence, logic and even numerous studies that too show evidence and logic. Here is a site (that I have often turned to for aid in the past) that helps to explain how Noah managed to fit all the animals onto his ark: “Question: "How did Noah fit all the animals on the Ark?" Answer: How did Noah fit all of those animals on the ark? Was the ark big enough to fit “two of every kind… of the birds after their kind, and of the animals after their kind, of every creeping thing of the ground after its kind,” and seven of some kinds? What about food? There had to be enough room to store enough food to last Noah and his family (8 in all), plus all of the animals, at least a year (see Genesis 7:11; 8:13-18) and maybe more, depending on how long it took for vegetation to grow back. That’s a lot of food! What about drinking water? Is it realistic to believe that Noah’s boat was big enough to store all of these animals and all of this food and water for over a year? The dimensions for the ark given in Genesis are 300 cubits long, 50 cubits wide and 30 cubits high (Genesis 6:15). What is a cubit? A cubit is an ancient unit of measurement, the length of the forearm from the elbow to the longest finger (the term “cubit” comes from the Latin word “cubitum” which means “elbow.” The Hebrew word for “cubit” is “ammah.” As everybody’s arms are different lengths, this unit may seem a bit ambiguous to some, but scholars generally agree that it represents somewhere between 17 and 22 inches (43-56 centimeters). The ancient Egyptian cubit is known to have been 21.888 inches. So, doing the math, 300 x 22 inches = 6,600; 50 x 22 inches = 1,100; 30 x 22 inches = 660 6,600/12 = 550 feet; 1100/12 = 91.7 feet; 660/12 = 55 feet. Thus, the ark could have been up to 550 feet long, 91.7 feet wide and 55 feet high. These are not unreasonable dimensions. But how much storage space does this amount to? Well, 550 x 91.7 x 55 = 2,773,925 cubic feet. (If we take the smallest measurement of cubit, 17 inches, we end up with 1,278,825 cubic feet). Of course, not all of it would have been free space. The ark had three levels (Genesis 6:16) and a lot of rooms (Genesis 6:14), the walls of which would have taken up space. Nevertheless, it has been calculated that a little more than half (54.75%) of the 2,773,925 cubic feet could store 125,000 sheep-sized animals, leaving over 1.5 million cubic feet of free space (see - http://www.icr.org/bible/bhta42.html)..) John Woodmorappe, author of the definitive Noah's Ark: A Feasibility Study, estimated that only about 15% of the animals on the ark would have been larger than a sheep. This figure does not take into account the possibility that God may have brought Noah “infant” animals, which can be significantly smaller than adult animals. How many animals were on the ark? Woodmorappe estimates about 16,000 “kinds.” What is a “kind”? The designation of “kind” is thought to be much broader than the designation “species.” Even as there are over 400 dog breeds all belonging to one species (Canis familiaris), so many species can belong to one kind. Some think that the designation “genus” may be somewhat close to the biblical “kind.” Nevertheless, even if we presume that “kind” is synonymous with “species,” “there are not very many species of mammals, birds, amphibians and reptiles. The leading systematic biologist, Ernst Mayr, gives the number as 17,600. Allowing for two of each species on the ark, plus seven of the few so-called “clean” kinds of animals, plus a reasonable increment for known extinct species, it is obvious that not more than, say, 50,000 animals were on the ark” (Morris, 1987). Some have estimated that there were as many as 25,000 kinds of animals represented on the ark. This is a high-end estimation. With two of each kind and seven of some, the number of animals would exceed 50,000, though not by very much, relatively speaking. Regardless, whether there were 16,000 or 25,000 kinds of animals, even with two of each and seven of some, scholars agree that there was plenty of room for all of the animals on the ark, plus food and water with room to spare. What about all of the excrement produced by all of these animals? How did 8 people manage to feed all of those animals and deal with tons of excrement on a daily basis? What about animals with specialized diet? How did plant-life survive? What about insects? There are a thousand other questions like these which could be raised, and they are all good questions. In the minds of many, these questions are unanswerable. But they are certainly nothing new. They have been asked over and over for centuries. And in all of that time researchers have sought answers. There are now numerous, very scholarly feasibility studies which have put Noah and his ark to the test. With over 1,200 scholarly references to academic studies, Woodmorappe’s book is “a modern systematic evaluation of the alleged difficulties surrounding Noah's Ark” (John Woodmorappe, “A Resource for Answering the Critics of Noah’s Ark,” Impact No. 273, March 1996. Institute for Creation Research, 30 January 2005 http://www.icr.org/pubs/imp/ “It’s about people admitting the bible can be wrong and it is not perfect. That’s what most of my arguments are getting to, they are to prove that there are parts of the bible that cannot be true. The bible has faulty facts, history, geology, and biology in it and I am trying to prove that by showing how they contradict scientific discoveries. Just because someone writes something in a book doesn’t make it true, and some of the things in the bible (the cases I am debating above) are not true. My cases are made to discredit the bible so it cannot be used as a rebuttal, such as in the evolution debate. You use the bible to support creationism but it's like a court trial, the bible is your witness and I am trying to discredit him by showing how he does not always tell the truth.” I understand, but I am convinced and very sure that you will never be able to prove the bible wrong. Sure, there are many who have attempted to but in process have had to throw logic or some other important factor out the window so that their case can be believable. The excerpts I have included here are very well presented which I thought would be better than my typing up. They provide logic and evidence; the authors clearly have a great understanding of the subjects. “Okay for the passage in Job you brought where god describes something that could be an elephant until it mentions it has a ceder -thick tail. The rebuttal I have to this is that it was made up. I can hypothesize this because this is a case where what the book says doesn’t match reality. First off, you can refer back to the timeline I gave you on the national geographic website that shows that’s dinosaurs died out millions of years before primitive humans ever existed” You can believe it is made up if you like, because that is what I say to all the statements and links you send that fail to provide any kind of evidence. And I can hypothesize this because for several posts you have been sending me links and statements from scientists that repeatedly fail to provide any evidence whereas evidence for the flood is staring us in our faces; the physical features of the earths terrain clearly indicate a catastrophic past – from canyons and craters to coal beds and caverns. Some layers of strata extend across continents, revealing the effects of a huge catastrophe. “The earth’s crust has massive amounts of layered sedimentary rock, sometimes miles (kilometers) deep! These layers of sand, soil, and material—mostly laid down by water—were once soft like mud, but they are now hard stone. Encased in these sedimentary layers are billions of dead things (fossils of plants and animals) buried very quickly. The evidence all over the earth is staring everyone in the face.” Well said. Furthermore, explorers in Turkey are positive they have found the ark. I do not stand firm in believing this, but however, its something to think about :) “There are plenty of stories in medieval Europe of dragons, wizards and witches, but no evidence to support it. Therefore we can conclude that they are simply fiction” Again, you are wrong. Many people, unlike you, believe things without having to see them. In the world today, there are certain people who still study and practice witchcraft – these people for a start would definitely believe the stories of witches. Yourself and other scientists do not have this ability to believe without seeing, therefore it is yourselves that “conclude they are simply fiction” however you must remember that not all people are like that. “PS – no offence intended by the holy crap, just a figure of speech. Anyways since you apparently can’t open the link I sent you I will give it to you again, http://www.nap.edu/ “Along path leads from the origins of primitive "life," which existed at least 3.5 billion years ago, to the profusion and diversity of life that exists today. This path is best understood as a product of evolution blah blah blah blah” Seriously, I am sick of opening links that give a false time period and don’t even bother to give evidence to support it. Please, the next link you send, if it states a time period and does not support it, don’t send it. It is useless without evidence. Side: creationism
I really don’t know what you want for evidence so I am just going to the logic of it. Do you really think that every reputable university, scientific, geological, and paleontological society is lying to you? These are the people who have dedicated their lives to learning about the world, they have nothing to gain by lying, and they look at the world, make hypotheses and test them to see if they are true. I have sent you many pages showing you the results of extensive studying and testing that scientists have done, but you seem to require more “evidence” and I am really not sure what you want. It is nearly impossible to find raw data from lab results of studies or at least I don’t know where or how to find them. When you have a scientific study or society they can do tests and present their findings just as all of the links I have sent you have done. I don’t know where to find their raw data, by I would much rather trust the American Academy of scientists who have many noble prize winning scientists and have made proven discoveries which are the basis for our modern world than a book that tells me to kill someone who picks up sticks on Sunday (Numbers 15: 33-36). Speaking of the bible, how come you don’t have to prove what’s in there, you can just allude to what someone wrote in a book and take it as fact. Why do you not apply the same scrutiny to the bible as you do to all the links and results I have sent you. What evidence do you have to back up the bible? And speaking of evolution, the pope, is not against it. The Vatican itself does not deny that the theory of evolution is false but states that it doesn’t conflict with their belief because God inspired it, I won’t debate that now because that isn’t the debate, we are debating evolution. And the church you follow does not deny evolution, the pope himself, a man who is God’s representative on earth, and is supposedly infallible, says there is not conflict between evolution and faith. The late Pope John Paul said “New findings lead us toward the recognition of evolution as more than a hypothesis. In fact it is remarkable that this theory has had progressively greater influence on the spirit of researchers, following a series of discoveries in different scholarly disciplines. The convergence in the results of these independent studies—which was neither planned nor sought—constitutes in itself a significant argument in favour of the theory.” It may not be an outright affirmation of evolution, but it is highly suggestive that it is correct, “more than a hypothesis” seems quite indicative to me. Also Pope Pius the 12th had this to say in his encyclical Humani Generis, “The Teaching Authority of the Church does not forbid that, in conformity with the present state of human sciences and sacred theology, research and discussions, on the part of men experienced in both fields, take place with regard to the doctrine of evolution, insofar as it inquiries into the origin of the human body as coming from pre-existent and living matter.” Now I don’t know about you, but if every reputable scientific organization accepts it, the church says it is not in conflict and is leaning towards acceptance, why reject it. “Sure, they tell me that dinosaurs roamed the earth millions of years ago and tell me what size of feet they had and what they ate. I could easily make such a statement but, as they do, I would appear completely stupid as I give no evidence for such a statement.” Well neither does the bible! The bible makes plenty of claims without backup, there is certainly no evidence by your narrow and picky definition of the word. “Moses listed the animals that were clean and unclean, and when he began listing the birds, he included the bat which would imply that he believed a bat to be a bird. Since we know that a bat is not a bird, does this make the bible incorrect? No; modern times have categorized animals far more specifically than they did thousands of years ago resulting in the bat being categorized as a mammal not a bird. Modern science has a far different classification system than ancient times; in Moses’ time, birds and bats were seen as alike since they categorized all flying animals as birds. Since that is the category they used, they were correct. There is no error; it is a difference of categorization procedures and time. The modern critic has imposed on the ancient text a modern system of categorization and then stated that the bible is wrong – this is a big error in thinking. Again, I apologize for not covering this point in my last post.” Actually it does make the bible incorrect. It doesn’t have anything to do with differences in classifications, it has to do with differences in reality. If I were to call a chair a table, then you proved to me that chairs were not tables, I could not say, well my system of classification of chairs as tables was fine for the time I used it at, it still does not change the fact that a chair is not a table. It is a misclassification, and the fact that it happened in another time is irrelevant. Just because I thought chairs were tables while I did not know the truth at the time, and made an error that would be discovered later, still means I made an error. Moses said bats were birds, however bats are not birds, therefore moses, thus something in the bible, is wrong. Just because he didn’t know any better doesn’t change the fact that he was wrong. You can’t say someone was right just because they didn’t know they were wrong. “So firstly, how could Noah round up all these animals and get them into the ship? Noah didn’t round them up, they came to him instead. Although this is hard for many to believe and would have been a supernatural sight to see, it is said that it would have been as though the animals were called by a “homing instinct” – a behaviour planted in them by their Creator” You seem to be found of demanding proof and evidence from me so I will simply return the favour. Please provide proof that every species in existence on this planet is capable of a coordinated migration to a single location on earth. We know that species can coordinate massive migrations within their own communities to habitats they move between during a period of time. But there is no evidence to suggest that species can coordinate a migration to a completely new point on earth at a time of the year that is not normal for them. For example, salmon can return to the exact same stream or tributary in which they were born in because they use scent markers to trace the route, there was a test done (look it up if you want, I read it before in a national geographic article) where salmon who had their olfcactory lobes damaged (lobes responsible for scent detection) could not successfully return to their spawning grounds. This shows that organisms can mass migrate because they have been there before and can retrace steps, but with Noah’s ark, there is no way for these species to all move to a specific point they have never been to. I would like some evidence, your “homing instinct” argument is weak and has nothing to back it up in the context of migration to new locations. Okay when you say that “that the salinity of the oceans and seas in Noah’s day was the same as the salinity of those today” I will argue that if there was such a flood salinity would have changed. When rain falls, it falls as fresh water, and salt water is found because fresh water moves through rivers, streams etc and washes dissolved ions into the ocean where they stay because they are not kept dissolved in water when it evaporates. This is why oceans are saline. Okay so you think that if the ocenas rose by 29 055 feet that wouldn’t change salinity? Shut downs ocean currents? Or destroy most marine life. If the ice caps in Antarctica melted, which contains 90% of the world’s ice, the ocean would only rise 200 feet (http://science.howstuffworks.com/ “Many fresh-water fish have relatives that once lived in saline environments (see Batten and Sarfati, 2000). Furthermore, even today there are fish (e.g., large-mouth bass) that thrive in brackish waters such as those where the Mississippi River dumps its fresh water into the salt water of the Gulf of Mexico.” Fish having relatives that once lived in saline environments does not mean that fish that are alive today could survive a change so rapid that occurs in 40 days, fish would not be able to adapt because it takes generations for a species to begin to adapt to a changing environment, most species would not even have gone through a lifetime before this dramatic change was over. But most importantly I have one question, If all the ice in the world can raise sea level no more than 222 feet (90% =200 feet so 100% = 222 feet), where do you get the water to raise sea level 130 times that amount? Not to mention, where did it go? Please answer these question with as much evidence as you expect from me. At one point you calculate the volume of holding area on Noah’s Ark“Well, 550 x 91.7 x 55 = 2,773,925 cubic feet” then factoring in other things you calculate a maximum volume of leaving over 1.5 million cubic feet of free space. Unfortunately, this boat is not a rectangular prism, so this calculation is invalid, this grossly over-estimates the volume of such a ship. Even if you take the maximum square footage of your miscalculated number of 1.5 million square feet that is roughly half of the square footage in the empire state building (http://tallest- The infant animal theory does not hold up due to the reasons explained in the video that the animals would have matured on their way or on the ship, and it is not plausible for them to coexist outside of the ship until they all spontaneously and simultaneously gave birth. On a side note, I found it funny that you use the work of Ernst Mayr, a leading evolutionary biologist, to attempt to prove noah’s ark and creationism. Anyways all the organisms you seem to be accounting for are animals or birds or reptiles. What about insects or amphibians? I do believe we have those now so you would have to account for them on the ark. “What about all of the excrement produced by all of these animals? How did 8 people manage to feed all of those animals and deal with tons of excrement on a daily basis? What about animals with specialized diet? How did plant-life survive? What about insects? There are a thousand other questions like these which could be raised, and they are all good questions. In the minds of many, these questions are unanswerable. But they are certainly nothing new. They have been asked over and over for centuries. And in all of that time researchers have sought answers. There are now numerous, very scholarly feasibility studies which have put Noah and his ark to the test.” Mind showing me them? I would like you to answer them if you are to assert that the story of the ark is true. With over 1,200 scholarly references to academic studies, Woodmorappe’s book is “a modern systematic evaluation of the alleged difficulties surrounding Noah's Ark” (John Woodmorappe, “A Resource for Answering the Critics of Noah’s Ark,” Impact No. 273, March 1996. Institute for Creation Research, 30 January 2005 http://www.icr.org/pubs/imp/ “the physical features of the earths terrain clearly indicate a catastrophic past – from canyons and craters to coal beds and caverns. Some layers of strata extend across continents, revealing the effects of a huge catastrophe. “The earth’s crust has massive amounts of layered sedimentary rock, sometimes miles (kilometers) deep! These layers of sand, soil, and material—mostly laid down by water—were once soft like mud, but they are now hard stone. Encased in these sedimentary layers are billions of dead things (fossils of plants and animals) buried very quickly.” None of this is evidence of a flood that raised the sea level by 29 055 feet. The grand canyon was formed the way all other canyons formed by ancient seas, lakes or oceans draining through rivers, the flowing water cuts through the rock over millions of years. (http://adventure.howstuffworks.com/ “There are plenty of stories in medieval Europe of dragons, wizards and witches, but no evidence to support it. Therefore we can conclude that they are simply fiction” Again, you are wrong. Many people, unlike you, believe things without having to see them. In the world today, there are certain people who still study and practice witchcraft – these people for a start would definitely believe the stories of witches. “ Just because you believe something does not make it true. I could believe there are a colony of midget gingers who ride 8-legged giraffes and have hair made of steel living on the dark side of the moon but that doesn’t make it true. I could believe anything but just because I believe it has absolutely no bearing on whether or not it is true. If you are going to espouse a positive affirmation, such as that dragons of witches or god then the burden of proof is on you. Until you prove that something does exist, you cannot assume it does, and belief has nothing to do with existence. If I believed that I was a millionaire and had the body of star athlete and had every talent in the world it will not change the fact that I am none of those. Belief has nothing to do with reality, and I cannot stress that enough. I suggest we end this debate soon as the posts are getting ridiculously long and this debate is beginning to run its course. It’s been good but debating just seems to entrench people in their own positions. Side: evolutionism
Too bad you are giving up, you were doing well. I can understand your reasoning though. If you have the time, I would like you to check out the debate I've been having with her in the other column of this debate. P.S. I have proof of thin Americans, for I am one :) Side: evolutionism
Not giving up, just retiring the debate. It was good but the posts were getting ridiculously long and were growing each time, I typed them in a word document in size 10 font and the last ones were 4 or 5 pages. I don't know how it happened but somehow a few different arguments kept getting added each time. Side: evolutionism
That's happening with my debate with her too. And it was a characteristic of the first major debate I had on this site, with Zerunagerous. These types of debates can get really complex, and I suppose there comes a time when any sane person would pack it in. I just don't like doing that. Fortunately, few people keep debating with me for more than a handful of rounds. We'll see how much tenacity Billie has :) Side: evolutionism
It comes down to who has more time, go for it if you can. I was looking through you debate and I see the arguments getting longer and longer each time, then i realized that it's trench warfare, let's see who can outlast the other. I'm in grade 12 and preparing for university so I just don't have the time to write one or two 5 page debates every night. Btw there is one point i wanted to make but didn't want to add more to my debate to make it too long, so if you want to use it, if you haven't already, then go ahead. It's about how bacteria can be used as a microcosm case study for evolution, for example how Staphylococcus aureus became resistant to penicillin. Those bacteria that evolved a genetic mutation making them resistant to the antibiotics would survive, their fast rate of reproduction is a way to see evolution at work in real time, the antibiotic treatment worked for 4 years until the resistant strain evolved. Anyways I like your arguments and I hope you keep going with the debate, good luck. Side: evolutionism
Yeah, honestly I should be spending more time with my studies. But since this is some of the stuff I study, I consider it of some value. About as staph evolution, I actually did that in a lab last semester! It was rather cool. It is something I always have in mind. It just depends on where the debate goes. I have something for almost every contingency. And thanks! Side: evolutionism
"Just because you believe something does not make it true. I could believe there are a colony of midget gingers who ride 8-legged giraffes and have hair made of steel living on the dark side of the moon but that doesn’t make it true. I could believe anything but just because I believe it has absolutely no bearing on whether or not it is true. If you are going to espouse a positive affirmation, such as that dragons of witches or god then the burden of proof is on you. Until you prove that something does exist, you cannot assume it does, and belief has nothing to do with existence. If I believed that I was a millionaire and had the body of star athlete and had every talent in the world it will not change the fact that I am none of those. Belief has nothing to do with reality, and I cannot stress that enough. I suggest we end this debate soon as the posts are getting ridiculously long and this debate is beginning to run its course. It’s been good but debating just seems to entrench people in their own positions." As I was reading your post, I was already forming my answers and I could almost hear my brain working, then I read your final statement of how your wishes to debate are closing in and I felt a great sense of disappointment overwhelm me. I have never debated someone like you who has such a positive attitude. You say that you wish to end this debate soon so I will try to make this post shorter and answer only a couple of your points; in main, the ones that have been stressed over the stretch of our argument. The first point is you say you don't know what I want for evidence so you headed into the logic end of the pool. This is what I expected of an atheist who was backed against a wall, but still, I really don't understand why you are sticking to a theory that you even state yourself you cannot find the raw data that provides the real evidence. Instead, you believe it based on the awards won by the academy scholars. If this isn't "blind faith" I don't know what it is. Secondly, you go on to say that they present their findings; wrong, they give a pretty little story and flash some pictures of bats or plants in your face and expect you to believe them without giving you the real evidence that they base these stories on. "And the church you follow does not deny evolution, the pope himself, a man who is God’s representative on earth, and is supposedly infallible, says there is not conflict between evolution and faith" I don't follow any church, or a pope. Just becase the pope believes in evolution, that does not mean that all Christians should do so also. "Actually it does make the bible incorrect. It doesn’t have anything to do with differences in classifications, it has to do with differences in reality. If I were to call a chair a table, then you proved to me that chairs were not tables, I could not say, well my system of classification of chairs as tables was fine for the time I used it at, it still does not change the fact that a chair is not a table. It is a misclassification, and the fact that it happened in another time is irrelevant. Just because I thought chairs were tables while I did not know the truth at the time, and made an error that would be discovered later, still means I made an error. Moses said bats were birds, however bats are not birds, therefore moses, thus something in the bible, is wrong. Just because he didn’t know any better doesn’t change the fact that he was wrong. You can’t say someone was right just because they didn’t know they were wrong." Wrong again. You have kept out key elements; firstly, the time period. When Moses wrote Genesis, it was to his knowledge and understanding that bats were birds. Thousands of years later, we, in our modern day world, have established a system where we categorize absolutely everything; we have terms for behaviours, characteristics, disorders, varied forms of stationary, advanced medicines etc etc etc. We categorize everything from animals and plants down to our behaviours, OCD, depression and autism - the list is endless. Now, just because back then there was not such an advanced categorization system where doctors would stick a label on their patient and send them along to the local pharmacy does not make them wrong, it simply further shows us the difference in time and the advanced and modern days that we live in. Back then, black was black and white was white. Nowadays, there are several shades of black, and several shades of white. Am I making myself clear? Moses was in no way wrong, and anyone with logic can see this. For me to go into the Noah's ark argument again would make this post longer than any one yet and you say you want to end this debate soon, so I will cover the point where you ask me why I believe the bible without evidence. You boldly assume that the bible has no evidence which is where I tell you different; there is evidence for the bible. You mention in your last statement also about belief not being reality; it is these two statements that make not myself look blind but rather yourself. A man who has to see to believe and who cannot grasp or possess the concept of faith and who leans on the stories of men who fail to produce the evidence for their supposed 'findings' is the blind and weak one. As for the excerpts I included, it was not I that typed them, so when you ask me for one of the studies that the author included, I am afraid you will have to email him or leave a message on his site as he has access to them, not myself. Also, the link that you commented on was not sent by me, I was going to exclude it from the text as I had not even been on it myself (I found his words far more interesting so saw no need to enter the link) but thought that it would no longer be his text so I left it. You say it did not validate the claims; well now you know what its like to be sent a useless link lol - just be lucky it wasn't five or more! On that last note, you ask me what evidence I have to back up the bible. I have hoards of evidence to back it up; I even have evidence that I don't have to send to you - you can step outside your house and stare at the world. Or, better still, get down on your knees and speak to the/your Creator instead. P.S. Sorry for the lacking quality in this post but I have been debating with other members who accuse me for not replying to their posts and in addition to this I am exhausted. Again, I apologize. It has been interesting and rewarding debating with you. I was hoping that perhaps I could share my faith with you and you could experience the incredible love of our Lord Jesus Christ. It seems you are leaning on the theories more heavily than I had thought and for that I cannot stress enough my overwhelming disappointment. However, perhaps we will debate in the future if I remain a debator on this site. May God bless you. Side: creationism
If I may: I have always found debates concerning the specific wording of Biblical passages to be highly problematic (for both sides) when the debates concern the English translations thereof. Do either of you happen to be fluent in Classical Hebrew or Aramaic? Further, do you have non-translated transcriptions of the Dead Sea Scrolls or something older handy? The simple fact that there are many slightly variant versions of the Bible, some of which are criticized by certain sects of Christianity and all of which are claimed by some Christians to be the most accurate (but really least inaccurate) English language translations should be a red flag concerning the veracity of any of them. At their heart, they essentially say the same thing, but when we start taking them word-for-word, we need to remember that errors in translation are unavoidable and that what we are reading is definitely not the original writing, so trying to get so specific on the wording is not really useful. Technically, I am aiming this at both you and Nautilus, but since you are the Bible literalist, this is more of a problem for your stance than his. I think Nautilus might have misunderstood what kind of evidence you were looking for. Concerning the first land plants: http://www.xs4all.nl/~steurh/eng/ and here's a cool interactive site all about paleobotany: http://www.ucmp.berkeley.edu/IB181/VPL/ As far as "sea monsters", the Sea likely referred to and known to the locals would be the Mediterranean, which is connected to the Atlantic via the Straits of Gibraltar. The Sea regularly hosts pods of whales and dolphins, as well as some seals and of course, sharks. All of these are pretty big for sea creatures (especially, obviously, whales) and all could be conceivably classed as monsters by superstitious folk. And the region is home to jellies, which are both very alien looking and quite dangerous, so also could be seen as monsters. And "sea monsters" hardly accounts for the wide range of land dinosaurs. The only land monster from the Bible that I know of that may potentially be considered a dinosaur would be the Behemoth. The actual size and most of the description of the beast is incredibly vague, including whether or not it was mammalian or reptilian. Some have argued that it could have been a elephant, a crocodile (although the Behemoth was identified as being a herbivore, so this is less likely) or another large beast that was not native to the territory but had wandered in from adjoining regions (Africa and Asia both hosted several large creatures), or (perhaps most likely) a mythological creation inherited from any of the imaginative fables present in the region at and before the time the Bible was written. Side: evolutionism
Evolution worke fine without god, since god doesnt exist. All of biology came to be, and will persist as it will, entirely independent of any divine intervention (since all of the processes and forms of biology can arise from the basic phyiscal forces of the universe and there is no emperical evidence suggesting anything like miraculous intervention). If one were to say talk about the concept of ontological harmonescence (a secular ordering principle of the universe based on the tendency for types of existence to form and persist [both ontically and ontologically] in existence) Side: evolutionism
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"The simple matter of God creating the world in six days" O, Irony, how I love thee. Creating the world was so simple, He simply spoke it into existence. You're missing the point that to add an extraneous entity to the theory of evolution violates Occam's Razor. If God exists, the theory of evolution would hold true, and evolution would continue without His intervention, guidance, or help. If God doesn't exist, the theory of evolution would still hold true, and evolution would still continue without His intervention, guidance, or help. Therefore, why is discussing God necessary in a discussion of evolution? Side: evolutionism
9
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The entire scientific community (such as the National Academy of Sciences, the National Science Foundation, the National Science Teachers Association, and the American Association for the Advancement of Science) is united behind evolutionary theory, it's the central unifying principle of modern biology. It's also supported by molecular biology, paleontology, virology, and other fields of science. The amount of evidence is incontrovertible - we understand not only the processes of speciation (including concepts like ring species) and the mechanisms of evolution, but we can trace the evolutionary history of countless organisms, including humans, whales, horses, and dogs. We also understand such complex adaptations such as the evolution of the eye (again, just one example). That evolution happens is indisputable - we've seen it proven through the selective breeding (ie artificial selection) of dogs and plants such as cauliflower and bananas, through examples like the Galapagos finches, and through studying viruses (that's why you have to get a flu shot every year - you've created a selective pressure for resistant organisms, which acts as an evolutionary catalyst), among many other examples. Evolution and religion doesn't even HAVE to be in conflict (any more than the heliocentric theory has to be, and that's pretty much generally accepted among Christians, I'd have to say). However, if you want to argue that evolution has to be contradictory of Christianity, so be it - and if you want to do that, evolution is still the clear victor. This is not only because there is actual evidence directly supporting its existence, but also because of the many examples supporting a lack of 'intelligent' design in evolution (such as the pharyngeal nerve, the prostate, and more). In other words, evolution has no foresight, and can create some pretty poorly engineered organisms. (One can still argue that it's compatible with a belief God though, by belief that God merely put the action in motion/created the force of natural selection.) Side: evolutionism
This is a very simple matter. Creationism is illogical and creationists hardly ever know how to answer any given question without saying "it was God's will." Evolutionism is not 100% correct but at least evolutionists can give logical and fundamented answers to most kinds of questions without saying "it was Athom's will". :D And btw, creationists always get pissed off when we don't believe their answers, while evolutionists will just probably think they didn't explain it clearly enough. ;) Simple as that. Side: evolutionism
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Just saying that it couldn't do it that way doesn't necessarily imply that it also couldn't do it in some other way, prior to these developments. A weak reason for refuting - and not necessarily related to - it's development, if that's what you're trying to accomplish. What you said has it's fair ammount of logic, but it's quite superficial. Side: evolutionism
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And it would have had to develop the features that protect it from the repeated impact with trees, regardless of the anatomical possibilities involved. Other species of birds could not survive act of penetrating trees with their beaks, and a woodpecker before it developed that ability would not have been able to either. Side: creationism
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Any development that allows the woodpecker to feed in its unique way would have had to occur, according to evolutionary theory, over a long period and numerous generations, but it would never have been able to begin the process of drilling into trees prior to possessing its current anatomy. As such, evolutionary theory does not apply here, and, by extension, it would not apply elsewhere. Side: creationism
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As such, evolutionary theory does not apply here, and, by extension, it would not apply elsewhere. I've already argued this point elsewhere, but I couldn't help but address this rather amusing logical fallacy. "Cars don't work up mountains, and by extension don't work elsewhere" Or X≠4 ==> X∉ {N, Z, R, C} Side: evolutionism
the woodpecker could never developed each of the components that are necessary for it to drill into trees over the evolutionary timeline. Prior to these developments, it could never have hunted for insects in that way. A proposed transitional for the Wood pecker would be an ancestor which can peck away at soft wood and catch flying insects. Problem solved. What do you want to bet there are already birds like this now? Side: evolutionism
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that there there would necessarily be transitional forms between these. Yes, but I don't see how that supports your argument. For your argument of irreducible complexity to work an intermediate must be impossible. The woodpecker argument fails because some birds can drill deeply into hard wood and others can only chip away at very soft wood, and some can only peck away at rotting wood. Often the irreducible complexity argument fails due to the lack of imagination of it's proponent. Traits are often used in ways that we never thought. Side: evolutionism
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Not true. For your theory to operate correctly, this gradual biological evolution must have occurred. That requires that is possess a mechanism that operates properly, but irreducible complexity disproves that notion. Even if there were instances in which traits are utilized in unsuspected ways, in other instances they would not be, and as such evolution would be necessary. However, it would not occur because, in those instances, the first traces of development would not benefit the creature and as such would be eliminated through natural selection. The woodpecker possesses numerous traits that enable it to drill into trees. These are necessary for its protection and simply so that it can extract insects from the wood. Simply because various birds have the capability to drill into different forms of wood in so way proves that an evolutionary development occurred. Side: creationism
Not true. For your theory to operate correctly, this gradual biological evolution must have occurred. That requires that is possess a mechanism that operates properly Mechanisms for Evolution: Natural selection Artificial selection Sexual selection Genetic drift but irreducible complexity disproves that notion. I don't think you understand what irreducible Complexity actually means. Irreducible Complexity is an apologetic argument, it is a hypothetical natural system, that if discovered would disprove Evolution. The problem is, that no one has actually ever actually found an irreducibly complex system. Some have been proposed, such as the bacterial Flagellum, but none have been verified. The woodpecker possesses numerous traits that enable it to drill into trees The woodpecker possesses numerous traits that enable it to drill into trees EFFICIENTLY. Many birds lacking these individual traits are capable of drilling into trees. Simply because various birds have the capability to drill into different forms of wood in so way proves that an evolutionary development occurred. But it does prove that it is not an irreducibly complex system. We need not know how specific evolutionary traits developed to know that evolution occurs. Side: evolutionism
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I believe that the term that you are searching for when describing evolution is argumentum ad ignorantiam. Mechanisms for Evolution: You ignore the biological processes that must occur in order for such alterations to occur. They are not explained by the above mechanisms. I don't think you understand what irreducible Complexity actually means. Irreducible Complexity is an apologetic argument, it is a hypothetical natural system, that if discovered would disprove Evolution. The problem is, that no one has actually ever actually found an irreducibly complex system. Some have been proposed, such as the bacterial Flagellum, but none have been verified. No, the real problem is that evolutionists fail to accept that the majority of biological systems are irreducibly complex. The woodpecker possesses numerous traits that enable it to drill into trees EFFICIENTLY. Many birds lacking these individual traits are capable of drilling into trees. The woodpecker possesses protective measures that enable it to survive drilling into trees. Otherwise it would be killed. If those did not exist, it would be useless to possess the other capabilities that allow it to drill into trees. But it does prove that it is not an irreducibly complex system. We need not know how specific evolutionary traits developed to know that evolution occurs. If scientists said that about other fields, we would not have the level of advancement that we do as a society. You profess not to need to know why it works simply because it does not work. However, no evolutionist could admit that. Side: creationism
You ignore the biological processes that must occur in order for such alterations to occur. They are not explained by the above mechanisms. Such as? No, the real problem is that evolutionists fail to accept that the majority of biological systems are irreducibly complex. Yet no one has ever produced even one. The woodpecker possesses protective measures that enable it to survive drilling into trees. The woodpecker has a very small brain and a lot of gray matter. This is why it can peck with such intensity. These are not an all-or-nothing traits, that irreducible complexity requires. Both of these traits can change and adapt relative to the intensity of 'pecking'. In other words as the brain gets smaller and the gray matter tighter, the bird can peck harder. This is something which can change gradually over time. You need to give up on the woodpecker example. The more you argue this, the more you exacerbate the weakness of your argument. If scientists said that about other fields, we would not have the level of advancement that we do as a society. You profess not to need to know why it works simply because it does not work. However, no evolutionist could admit that. You need to go back and re-read what I said. I never said we don't need to know how evolution works, I never said that. What I said was that we don't need to know how specific evolutionary traits develop, to know that evolution occurs. Please contemplate the difference in meaning here. Let me phrase this another way: We don't need to how every single branch twists and turns to know that there is a tree in front of us. Do not put words in my mouth. Side: evolutionism
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Such as? The process specifically requires the development of relevant information that will enable the organism to undergo some biological change (i.e. any evolutionary metamorphosis that results in new biological structures), not a mere mutation that alters an insufficient number of traits or, worse, corrupts them. Yet no one has ever produced even one. Such systems are prolific in nature. Presumably any one that comes to mind as you read this can be labeled as irreducibly complex. These are not an all-or-nothing traits, that irreducible complexity requires. In fact, they easily establish that the developments could not have occurred. Look at the information example for the other element of irreducible complexity. This is something which can change gradually over time. You need to give up on the woodpecker example. The more you argue this, the more you exacerbate the weakness of your argument. A woodpecker would not be able to survive a greater intensity if it does not have the necessary features. It would not develop these for that simple reason. You are suggesting that it would require different food sources, and thus a different mechanism of obtaining said food. Were that true, it would be eliminated for lack of food before developing the necessary traits, or, if there was no necessity, it would not have any need for the altered capabilities. You need to go back and re-read what I said. I never said we don't need to know how evolution works, I never said that. What I said was that we don't need to know how specific evolutionary traits develop, to know that evolution occurs. Please contemplate the difference in meaning here. I am in no way suggesting that you must no how each species developed. However, it would be prudent to understand the mechanism, and, particularly, its flaws. As I have responded to your arguments and defended my own, you may want to reconsider yours. Side: creationism
The process specifically requires the development of relevant information that will enable the organism to undergo some biological change What the hell are you talking about? The development of relevant information? Relevant to what? An event that hasn't happened yet? I think you are needlessly muddying up the dialogue, to inject your unsubstantiated explanation. There is no relevent or irrelevent information for that matter. There is no goal to be relevent to. There is only change which succeeds and change which fails. Nor is there any limit to how small a change can be, in fact most mutations are entirely unnoticeable. Such systems are prolific in nature So prolific that we cannot name even one. A woodpecker would not be able to survive a greater intensity if it does not have the necessary features. Thus mutation. You are suggesting that it would require different food sources No, not require. They would feed on different food sources based on what is available and on what they are suited to preying upon. require different food sources, and thus a different mechanism of obtaining said food. Were that true, it would be eliminated for lack of food before developing the necessary traits Many animals already have the basic features to use multiple methods of obtaining food. Bears for example can hunt, scavenge, fish, or forage or they may choose to specialize in any one of these methods. I am in no way suggesting that you must no how each species developed. However, it would be prudent to understand the mechanism, and, particularly, its flaws I understand well enough many of the different mechanisms of evolution (as there is more than one). I understand that you have doubts about how it works, as it is quite difficult to comprehend a non-linear process on such a large scale. As I have responded to your arguments and defended my own, you may want to reconsider yours. Perhaps you want to reconsider yours? I scarcely know what yours even is. As best I am able to surmise it is some form of Old World Creationism. You have shied away from revealing what it really is that you believe, in an attempt to protect it from criticism. As you can tell I welcome any and all criticism you can lay against evolution, I am more than capable of responding to any of your criticisms and refuting them. I have over 99% of biologists on my side. Side: evolutionism
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What the hell are you talking about? The development of relevant information? Relevant to what? An event that hasn't happened yet? In order to develop a biological structure, you must have the genetic information encoded in your DNA to do so. If that DNA has not developed, the mutation will not serve the purpose suggested by the later development. So prolific that we cannot name even one. Every organ, wings, limbs, et cetera. How about the human mind. Neuroscientists recognize our complexity in that matter. However, there is no evolutionary reason to suggest the need for such a development. Or consider our complex system of vocal communication. That would not be necessary among the primitive humans, as we have observed in other species vocalizations that enable communication (just consider canines). Thus mutation. A random mutation would not provide the solution to the problem. No, not require. They would feed on different food sources based on what is available and on what they are suited to preying upon. Then they would not have an evolutionary requirement to adapt to different forms of wood, as other sources of food would be available. as it is quite difficult to comprehend a non-linear process on such a large scale. The flaws easily demonstrate the issues associated with evolutionary theory, so it is a simple matter to comprehend how it fails. I scarcely know what yours even is. As best I am able to surmise it is some form of Old World Creationism. You have shied away from revealing what it really is that you believe, in an attempt to protect it from criticism. I assume that you would agree with me that universe is several billion years old. I have over 99% of biologists on my side. The concept of the atom was considered laughable by the scientific community at one point, as well. Side: creationism
In order to develop a biological structure, you must have the genetic information encoded in your DNA to do so. If that DNA has not developed, the mutation will not serve the purpose suggested by the later development. You're thinking about this completely ass backwards. Mutation is not 'looking' for any specific genetic code, it is simply the alteration of what is already present. Every organ, wings, limbs, et cetera. Incorrect. Anything that exists or can exist in gradients cannot be irreducibly complex. Neuroscientists recognize our complexity in that matter Complexity =/= irreducible complexity However, there is no evolutionary reason to suggest the need for such a development. So human intelligence, thought and social behavior had nothing to do with our dominance of the planet? Or consider our complex system of vocal communication. That would not be necessary among the primitive humans This argument is nonsense. You can pick any species at any point of history and say that it didn't (at that time) need a certain trait that it would later acquire. My response to this is: Well, Duh! That's precisely why it didn't have that trait at that time. It only acquired that trait AFTER there was a necessity for it. This argument is abhorrent to anyone who has any sense of reason or logic. A random mutation would not provide the solution to the problem. Yes it does. Then they would not have an evolutionary requirement to adapt to different forms of wood, as other sources of food would be available. Your arguments are getting more vacuous by the moment. "If there wasn't a need for _______ to happen, then ______ wouldn't have happened." Which essentially boils down to "If there wasn't a cause for it to happen then it wouldn't have happened." Well of course, arguing that something happens or happened assumes as a condition of the argument itself that there is a cause. The flaws easily demonstrate the issues associated with evolutionary theory, so it is a simple matter to comprehend how it fails. Well, that's a matter of dispute, isn't it? I would say that creationism is much more riddled with logical and scientific holes. I assume that you would agree with me that universe is several billion years old About 14 billion. The concept of the atom was considered laughable by the scientific community at one point, as well. "But the fact that some geniuses were laughed at does not imply that all who are laughed at are geniuses. They laughed at Columbus, they laughed at Fulton, they laughed at the Wright brothers. But they also laughed at Bozo the Clown." ~Carl Sagan Side: evolutionism
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You're thinking about this completely ass backwards. Mutation is not 'looking' for any specific genetic code, it is simply the alteration of what is already present. First, we are not talking about the evolution of the donkey. Second, mutations, being random, most often cause a loss of information or an alteration thereof. They would not serve as the basis for some type of biological change necessitated by the environment. Incorrect. Anything that exists or can exist in gradients cannot be irreducibly complex. None of the examples could have developed in the manner required by evolution. I believe that it has been explained quite clearly at this point. If an organism possessed limbs, and if there was no requirement for a change thereof, the limbs would not be altered. It is also because the development (occurring in phases as mandated by evolution) would not produce useful structures at every instance, even of the first one was. So human intelligence, thought and social behavior had nothing to do with our dominance of the planet? As evolutionary theory posits that each feature that develops requires phases, we could assume that the first humans would not have acquired such mental function as modern humans have. However, we have observed the usefulness of primitive mechanisms of communication among other organisms, including vocalizations meant to convey rather specific messages. As such, there would be no biological requirement for anything more advanced in the early humans, yet we are still clearly aware of the nature of human advancement. Your statement is irrelevant. It fails to take into account the factors enumerated above. That's precisely why it didn't have that trait at that time. It only acquired that trait AFTER there was a necessity for it. One would find that many biological necessities are driven by urgent environmental requirements. In many instances, the organism in question would be destroyed prior to adapting properly. Yes it does. You fail to take into account the fact that it is random. By the definition of that word, a mutation of that variety would not be a result in the solution to the problem. "If there wasn't a need for _______ to happen, then ______ wouldn't have happened." If we are to assume that evolution in this scenario is caused by adaptations to environmental requirements, the lack of a such a requirement would not produce adaptations, as there would be no compulsion to adapt. _______________________________________ You will also find that evolution is incompatible with information theory. This is easily illustrated by the origins of life on Earth. If we are to assume that cells formed, it is necessary to have the genetic information to create the organelles. However, that requires the ability to read that information. However, the ability to read such information suggests that compatible DNA has already developed. However, we will see that there is a paradox. The information would be useless without the any way by which to translate it, and the ability to perform actions is prevented by the inability to read said data. Also, these cells would not have formed simply because they require multiple structures to operate. Unless we are to assume that they arose simultaneously (which is incompatible with the theory), there is no solution to that problem from an evolutionary standpoint. Side: creationism
mutations, being random, most often cause a loss of information or an alteration thereof. They would not serve as the basis for some type of biological change necessitated by the environment. Yes mutations are random Yes they do cause an alteration of the genetic code No they don't "lose" information, only changes it I don't see how any of this presents any problem to the theory of Evolution, you just have a few misconceptions about it. None of the examples could have developed in the manner required by evolution. None of the examples you listed represent irreducible complexity, whether or not you think that could have developed through evolutionary processes or not. You continue to laud an argument that you think supports your case, yet you continue to demonstrate that you don't even understand it. A single system which is composed of several interacting parts that contribute to the basic function, and where the removal of any one of the parts causes the system to effectively cease functioning A irreducibly complex system, is one which cannot have arisen gradually because it contains multiple inter-dependent parts, and that the absence of one or more of these parts causes the whole system to be non-functional. To date, no such systems have been found in nature, and if you were to find one such system you'd be the first. This is because every trait that aids the function of a system, is itself independently useful. would not produce useful structures at every instance, even of the first one was. Yes, it would. Every non-useful structure would be eliminated, until a useful structure was found. Evolution works much like trial and error. As evolutionary theory posits that each feature that develops requires phases, we could assume that the first humans would not have acquired such mental function as modern humans have. However, we have observed the usefulness of primitive mechanisms of communication among other organisms, including vocalizations meant to convey rather specific messages. As such, there would be no biological requirement for anything more advanced in the early humans, yet we are still clearly aware of the nature of human advancement.Your statement is irrelevant. It fails to take into account the factors enumerated above. This argument is a non-sequitar. Here is what you are saying: "...we have observed the usefulness of primitive mechanisms of communication among other organisms" ^ this is your premise. and here you are making your conclusion: "As such, there would be no biological requirement for anything more advanced in the early humans" This is your argument 1. Verbal communication is useful in many animals 2. Therefore, there is no reason for complex speech to develop in humans Your conclusion does not logically follow from your premise. In many instances, the organism in question would be destroyed prior to adapting properly. In many instances, yes. Not in all instances. What is your question? You fail to take into account the fact that it is random. {laughs} I EXPECT mutation to be random. The fact that you think this is a problem tells me you don't understand evolution. Why don't you tell me how you think evolution works. If we are to assume that evolution in this scenario is caused by adaptations to environmental requirements, the lack of a such a requirement would not produce adaptations, as there would be no compulsion to adapt Yes, I understand perfectly well, what you are saying. But you seem to be oblivious to why this line of reasoning is completely idiotic. You first have to prove that no such requirements are possible, before using this line of argument...you seem to have skipped that step entirely. You will also find that evolution is incompatible with information theory. This is easily illustrated by the origins of life on Earth. If we are to assume that cells formed, it is necessary to have the genetic information to create the organelles. However, that requires the ability to read that information. However, the ability to read such information suggests that compatible DNA has already developed Except this is not how DNA works. Micro-organisms do not "read" DNA like you and I read words. This requires a certain level of comprehension. This is the problem when people take certain analogies too literally. DNA is an acid, it is in itself a cause of various effects especially in meiosis. It is not the interpretation or comprehension of DNA but the DNA itself which affects the development of organisms, despite the fact that it is often described that way in literature. Side: evolutionism
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I don't see how any of this presents any problem to the theory of Evolution, you just have a few misconceptions about it. Mutations will not function as providing adaptive properties, as they are random. As such, we cannot believe that they are the solution to evolutionary issues that may arise. In fact, there is no fossil evidence that demonstrates any of the forms that experienced all of the harmful mutations necessarily required by evolutionary theory and subsequently died out. You have yet to prove that this is false. None of the examples you listed represent irreducible complexity, whether or not you think that could have developed through evolutionary processes or not. Many of the systems do illustrate irreducible complexity, as they would not function properly or at all without all of the parts being in existence. This indicates that you do not have a knowledge of what constitutes such a system. Furthermore, there is no logical or scientific evidence to suggest that the development as required by evolution (in stages, with many useless developments occurring) could possibly occur. This means that, even if we are to assume that one or more of the phases actually produces a useful apparatus, that at the point where a useless structure is developed, the trait will not survive as a result of natural selection. Yes, it would. Every non-useful structure would be eliminated, until a useful structure was found. That assumes that a useful structure will necessarily be present at every stage of development. That is not true. In the ongoing evolutionary process, there would have to be biological structures that would serve no purpose, as they would not fulfill the ultimate role required by the change. If a random mutation were to produce a an alteration that may begin enable a sea dwelling organism to survive in a terrestrial environment, there is no reason to suggest that it would continue that pattern of development, especially as such a trait would not suit an aquatic life form. In fact, there are numerous genetic mechanisms in place to eliminate unnecessary mutations. This is your argument 1. Verbal communication is useful in many animals 2. Therefore, there is no reason for complex speech to develop in humans Not particularly. I am stating that there would be no reason for primitive man to develop advanced mental capabilities. As we have observed moderately advanced communicative and mental traits in other related species, it stands to reason, that at some point in this timeline, a similar mechanism would have developed at an earlier point. As such features would be adequate for their purposes, advanced traits such as ours would have had no need to develop. Indeed, humans have personalities and emotions (this is scientifically documented). Other animals also exhibit similar features. Of what possible use would personalities and many if not all emotions serve from an evolutionary standpoint? Evolution works much like trial and error. It is unfortunate that there is no fossil evidence of the trials that resulted in no gain. One would assume the existence of countless such fossils representing organisms that never passed on their genes. Except this is not how DNA works. Micro-organisms do not "read" DNA like you and I read words. This requires a certain level of comprehension. This is the problem when people take certain analogies too literally. DNA is an acid, it is in itself a cause of various effects especially in meiosis. It is not the interpretation or comprehension of DNA but the DNA itself which affects the development of organisms, despite the fact that it is often described that way in literature. I am quite aware of this. An simpler explanation of my point would be to state that such information is useless without any capability for it to be processed into whatever the particular segment might indicate. Indeed, the ability to process the information depends on already possessing it. However, DNA must provide a sequence that serves a function, or it is useless. How, then are we to assume that it arose in any understandable manner, rather than useless strands such as those found during a mutation? Side: creationism
Mutations will not function as providing adaptive properties, as they are random. Yes, and "Lottery tickets can never provide a winner because they are random". Except that we know that they do all the time. In fact I've already given an example of such a case which you have already conceded. Your arguments are terrible in most every instance, if they are not downright idiotic or false. Do you know what random even means? Randomness does not and cannot imply impossibility, only improbability. It is never logical to make an absolute statement of any kind using probability unless that probability is 1:1. The chance of me rolling a 5 with a die, is about one-in-six, but if I roll the same die twice, my chances double, if I roll it a hundred times my chances are even better. The chance that a given mutation will result in a beneficial mutation is small, but hundreds and thousands of mutations later, I'm going to get a few that actually are. This is not even a question anymore. Many of the systems do illustrate irreducible complexity, as they would not function properly or at all without all of the parts being in existence. All of the examples you list do exists in to various degrees, in other organisms, and all of the traits which make up these systems can and are beneficial independently of these systems. You like nearly all other creationists ignore the fact that such traits don't have to have the same function, just as long as it has a function. For example, a semi-formed wing even if it cannot provide flight it can still be beneficial for gliding. An eye which sees in black and white is better than no eye at all. A light sensitive cell is better than one that isn't. et cetera. I am stating that there would be no reason for primitive man to develop advanced mental capabilities. Yes, but this is not an argument. It's a statement of opinion. Nothing you said supports this opinion. verbal communication being useful in other animals in no way supports this statement. Should I just take your word for it? You need to provide something substantial to support this opinion. You just stated that there wouldn't be a reason, you never said why. Of what possible use would personalities and many if not all emotions serve from an evolutionary standpoint? Emotions communicate to other members of the same species. Fear for example may communicate to other members that there is a potential danger nearby. Anger may indicate a conflict within a group, that needs to be rectified. This is an argument from ignorance. You are saying that because YOU cannot think of a use or cause for emotions, that is could not have evolved. It is unfortunate that there is no fossil evidence of the trials that resulted in no gain Every extinct species ever discovered. I am quite aware of this. An simpler explanation of my point would be to state that such information is useless without any capability for it to be processed into whatever the particular segment might indicate. Indeed, the ability to process the information depends on already possessing it. However, DNA must provide a sequence that serves a function, or it is useless. How, then are we to assume that it arose in any understandable manner, rather than useless strands such as those found during a mutation? Apparently you aren't aware of it, because you continue to say the same thing you've just changed the wording of the argument. You can call it reading, processing, translating, comprehending, ciphering but you are still saying the same thing. I am telling you that this is not how DNA works. There is no ciphering or processing organelle in cells, nor would there be a need for them. The same reason why raindrops don't need to calculate trajectory before falling to the earth, the molecules are simply responding to what is there (namely gravity). Side: evolutionism
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Yes, and "Lottery tickets can never provide a winner because they are random". Except that we know that they do all the time. In fact I've already given an example of such a case which you have already conceded. You are saying that random mutations would provide the solution to the organism's requirements. Given the fact that they are random, they would not provide the solution to whatever problem may be present. You also assume that mutations occur in a sequence that compliments each preceding phase, which eliminates the notion of any randomness. In addition, a single mutation in the DNA cannot cause a change in phenotype, given the number of genes that generate the features associated with the phenotype. You will find that there are corrective mechanisms in place to eliminate the problems associated with mutations. The example of the lottery is ineffective because it is a somewhat guided process compared to evolution. You like nearly all other creationists ignore the fact that such traits don't have to have the same function, just as long as it has a function. If it does not have a function that exists properly with the system in question than it could indeed be harmful or at least a useless expenditure of resources. For example, a semi-formed wing even if it cannot provide flight it can still be beneficial for gliding. That is assuming that the wing could form partially. You also ignore the utterly critical fact that not every stage of development would have a use. Furthermore, that does not incorporate the crucial fact that such an organism requires much more than a wing to engage in flight or, indeed, utilize its wings. It requires the metabolism to ensure that it receives the proper level of nutrition to sustain flight, in addition to a musculoskeletal system and vascular system that provide it with the locomotive capabilities to use wings. Thus, one would find that many stages in the development of the wing would produce structures that would be useless. "Why, if species have descended from other species by insensibly fine gradations, do we not everywhere see innumerable transitional forms? Why is not all nature in confusion, instead of the species being, as we see them, well defined?" -Charles Darwin, 1859 An eye which sees in black and white is better than no eye at all. A light sensitive cell is better than one that isn't. et cetera. Once again, that ignores the crucial steps that would necessarily have to occur in between each stage of ocular development, as such an assembly is quite intricate. Should I just take your word for it? You need to provide something substantial to support this opinion. You just stated that there wouldn't be a reason, you never said why. I have iterated the explanation earlier, but will provide additional detail. Also, you should provide support for your perspective, not repeat statements with no proper description. The human personality and mental development is quite advanced, much more so than any other organisms on Earth. That is indisputable, as neuroscience proves. As we are aware that other life forms have established forms of communication, it would be reasonable to suggest that the early humans would have as well. In fact, that is a belief held by the evolutionary community. As such, having developed a reasonable form of communication and development, why would there be any need to develop beyond that? You have yet to provide an effective response to this argument. Emotions communicate to other members of the same species. Fear for example may communicate to other members that there is a potential danger nearby. Anger may indicate a conflict within a group, that needs to be rectified. You will find that numerous organisms have established forms of communication. As they are capable of recognizing all of these problems, why would there be any need to develop emotions, which can actually hinder effective reactions to issues? Every extinct species ever discovered. This is false. There is no evidence that demonstrates the sizeable number of organisms that must have (according to evolutionary theory) experienced random, useless mutations which were genetically rectified in subsequent generations. I am telling you that this is not how DNA works. There is no ciphering or processing organelle in cells, nor would there be a need for them. The same reason why raindrops don't need to calculate trajectory before falling to the earth, the molecules are simply responding to what is there (namely gravity). I am not suggesting that the mechanism that you describe above is what actually exists. However, there are enzymes that conduct the processes that occur in gene expression. As such information theory conspires against evolution. In addition, irreducible complexity is observed in the development of first cells. They could not have developed in stages, given that many of the features would have required other structures to sustain them. Side: creationism
You are saying that random mutations would provide the solution to the organism's requirements. Not, in those exact words, but yes. Random mutation can and does result in beneficial traits. Although most mutations, neither help nor harm a particular individual. "It has been estimated that in humans and other mammals, uncorrected errors occur at the rate of about 1 in every 50 million (5 x 107) nucleotides added to the chain. But with 6 x 109 base pairs in a human cell, that mean that each new cell contains some 120 new mutations. " Source: http://users.rcn.com/ Given the fact that they are random, they would not provide the solution to whatever problem may be present. Given the how frequently mutations occur, they absolutely can. Perhaps the problem is that you are looking at it retroactively. If you see the given solution as the only possible solution, this might lend you to believe that it is much more improbable than it actually is. But in Nature we see that there are many different solutions to the same problem. You also assume that mutations occur in a sequence that compliments each preceding phase, which eliminates the notion of any randomness. No, harmful mutations do occur and quite frequently I might say so, but they are eliminated from the gene-pool by natural selection. So that the positive mutations are simply better represented. Like most of your arguments, this has more to do with your lack of understanding, than it does with any real holes in evolution. You will find that there are corrective mechanisms in place to eliminate the problems associated with mutations. If you read the except I gave above, It states that uncorrected errors occur at a rate of 1 in every 50 million nucleotides added. If replication errors were never corrected, the rate would be even greater. If it does not have a function that exists properly with the system in question than it could indeed be harmful or at least a useless expenditure of resources. We are talking about the usefulness of traits before a system has developed. That is assuming that the wing could form partially. You also ignore the utterly critical fact that not every stage of development would have a use. No, that is the matter of dispute. You state it as a fact, but are incapable of supporting such an assumption with any known and agreed upon facts. You state it as if the fact that you said it, makes it true. Conceivably there are many structures which provide benefits to varying degrees, at all "stages". Consider the horn(s) of a rhinoceros. http://www.flickr.com/photos/ It requires the metabolism to ensure that it receives the proper level of nutrition to sustain flight, in addition to a musculoskeletal system and vascular system that provide it with the locomotive capabilities to use wings You're just stating the obvious here. Yes, birds need wings to fly, they need to be light enough to fly, they need to be strong enough to fly. All of these traits can and have developed to lessor degrees before actual flight, these are the reasons why specific species were able to maintain flight. "Why, if species have descended from other species by insensibly fine gradations, do we not everywhere see innumerable transitional forms? Why is not all nature in confusion, instead of the species being, as we see them, well defined?" -Charles Darwin, 1859 I felt we were lacking some quote mines, in this discussion. When someone appears to be saying something against what we historically know them to believe, this is a quote mine. Had you have quoted the whole statement you would have seen that Darwin was stating this was a common argument against his theory of evolution, which he later goes on to refute. Full quote: Long before having arrived at this part of my work, a crowd of difficulties will have occurred to the reader. Some of them are so grave that to this day I can never reflect on them without being staggered; but, to the best of my judgment, the greater number are only apparent, and those that are real are not, I think, fatal to my theory. These difficulties and objections may be classed under the following heads:-Firstly, why, if species have descended from other species by insensibly fine gradations, do we not everywhere see innumerable transitional forms? Why is not all nature in confusion instead of the species being, as we see them, well defined? He then answers this very question... On the absence or rarity of transitional varieties. As natural selection acts solely by the preservation of profitable modifications, each new form will tend in a fully-stocked country to take the place of, and finally to exterminate, its own less improved parent or other less-favoured forms with which it comes into competition. Thus extinction and natural selection will, as we have seen, go hand in hand. Hence, if we look at each species as descended from some other unknown form, both the parent and all the transitional varieties will generally have been exterminated by the very process of formation and perfection of the new form. But, as by this theory innumerable transitional forms must have existed, why do we not find them embedded in countless numbers in the crust of the earth? It will be much more convenient to discuss this question in the chapter on the Imperfection of the geological record; and I will here only state that I believe the answer mainly lies in the record being incomparably less perfect than is generally supposed; the imperfection of the record being chiefly due to organic beings not inhabiting profound depths of the sea, and to their remains being embedded and preserved to a future age only in masses of sediment sufficiently thick and extensive to withstand an enormous amount of future degradation; and such fossiliferous masses can be accumulated only where much sediment is deposited on the shallow bed of the sea, whilst it slowly subsides. These contingencies will concur only rarely, and after enormously long intervals. Whilst the bed of the sea is stationary or is rising, or when very little sediment is being deposited, there will be blanks in our geological history. The crust of the earth is a vast museum; but the natural collections have been made only at intervals of time immensely remote. Once again, that ignores the crucial steps that would necessarily have to occur in between each stage of ocular development, as such an assembly is quite intricate. Yes, and such intricacy provides no adversity for evolutionary theory, as millions of years of trial and error could have resulted in this intricacy. The human personality and mental development is quite advanced, much more so than any other organisms on Earth. That is indisputable, as neuroscience proves. As we are aware that other life forms have established forms of communication, it would be reasonable to suggest that the early humans would have as well. In fact, that is a belief held by the evolutionary community. As such, having developed a reasonable form of communication and development, why would there be any need to develop beyond that? So because YOU cannot think of a reason for humans to need a more complex and articulate form of speech, It couldn't have possibly evolved that way? Better speech and thus better and clearer communication, allows a much greater capacity to cooperate. This has innumerable evolutionary advantages. Our ability to survive as a species has been entirely contingent on our ability to cooperate effectively. You will find that numerous organisms have established forms of communication. As they are capable of recognizing all of these problems, why would there be any need to develop emotions, which can actually hinder effective reactions to issues? It can, but they can also help. Love, promotes bonding and cooperation. Anger helps to make decisions quickly and to promotes the ability to fight. Fear, is a defensive emotion that guides us to escape dangerous situations. If you really wanted to know more, you could do your own research. There is no evidence that demonstrates the sizeable number of organisms that must have (according to evolutionary theory) experienced random, useless mutations which were genetically rectified in subsequent generations. All individuals posses harmful mutations to some degree, most of which are very minor. This is not always apparent from outside appearances. Those with the greater disadvantages are more quickly eliminated from the gene-pool, and because the fossilization process is incredibly rare we are mostly going to see the most prominent species. Even so, whether a species is poorly adapted, is entirely dependent on it's environment. So if you are expecting to see something too outlandish, you will probably be disappointed. I am not suggesting that the mechanism that you describe above is what actually exists. However, there are enzymes that conduct the processes that occur in gene expression. There are enzymes....so what? What could you possibly tell me about enzymes that disproves evolution? Go ahead, I'm listening. Side: evolutionism
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It is a goal of science to pursue the truths that underly our universe. As such, it is important to consider whether evolutionary theory is correct. There are numerous issues with said theory. Consider the fact that the steps required to complete a species' evolution could never exceed the first stages. this is because the first stages would produce superfluous structures, and these would be eliminated in the next generation, as required by natural selection. Side: creationism
It is a goal of science to pursue the truths that underly our universe. As such, it is important to consider whether evolutionary theory is correct. There are numerous issues with said theory. Consider the fact that the steps required to complete a species' evolution could never exceed the first stages. this is because the first stages would produce superfluous structures, and these would be eliminated in the next generation, as required by natural selection. Ignoring sexual selection, here for a minute...What makes you think the first stage cannot be functional? This is the assumption that you are making, yes? You discount it entirely without explanation. Granted, there will be 1,000 harmful, or benign mutations before there is a beneficial one, but it still happens, and it is all that is required for evolution to work. Side: evolutionism
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Evolutionary theory posits that the alterations that created each successive species occurred in stages over millions of years. The first phases in this development would not provide the function that is ultimately required (consider the development of wings). Also, taking the example of wings, such development assumes that the information necessary to construct such structures is created at some point. Mutation is the alteration of existing information, not the creation of new information. Side: creationism
The first phases in this development would not provide the function that is ultimately required ...based on? You've stated this elsewhere, but yet to justify this assumption. Also, taking the example of wings, such development assumes that the information necessary to construct such structures is created at some point. Wings are limbs. Notice reptiles have 4 limbs, and avians have 4 limbs. The frontal limbs simply adapted for gliding, flapping etc... The wing, most likely began as a grasping claw with long fingers, useful for clutching prey and climbing covered in feathers. Consider the following: http://images.wikia. Mutation is the alteration of existing information, not the creation of new information. The English language is composed of 26 letters, and in combining these letters in different ways we can create new words that didn't exist before. DNA works much the same way. It is composed of 4 base pairs arranged in a chain, and the arrangement of these base pairs in the chain can result in entirely new features. Side: evolutionism
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...based on? You've stated this elsewhere, but yet to justify this assumption. You will recognize that evolution does not occur immediately from one generation to another. If that is so, it will require several stages of development. As this does not occur rapidly, the first alterations to the organism will provide no tangible benefit. Natural selection dictates that this will be eliminated by the subsequent generations. Wings are limbs. Notice reptiles have 4 limbs, and avians have 4 limbs. The frontal limbs simply adapted for gliding, flapping etc... The differences between the limbs are quite large if one analyzes the variations in biological systems that comprise them. For what reason would a conventional dinosaur's limb begin to adapt in such a manner. Indeed, such an adaptation suggests that the information necessary to construct the wing exists, but there is no reason to believe that it would have developed. DNA works much the same way. It is composed of 4 base pairs arranged in a chain, and the arrangement of these base pairs in the chain can result in entirely new features. Random mutations will not provide the basis for evolution. It is far more common for mutations to result in a loss or corruption of information, which will not provide the necessary basis for development, unless we are to assume that all of the mutations that define every aspect of an evolution occur. Side: creationism
As this does not occur rapidly, the first alterations to the organism will provide no tangible benefit. You've just re-phrased the assumption that I was disputing in the first place. This doesn't answer my question at all. Why do you assume, that it cannot provide a benefit? The differences between the limbs are quite large The difference between wolves and chihuahuas is quite large, but we know that Chihuahuas descended from wolves. For what reason would a conventional dinosaur's limb begin to adapt in such a manner Feathers initially may have been useful for body insulation. Colorful feather may have been useful for mate selection. A fan-like appendage may have been useful in making one's self look bigger to scare off rivals, to block wind from offspring while in the egg, to swim, to move foliage/debris, to jump higher through flapping, to glide, and to eventually glide and any other uses that I may not have thought off. Random mutations will not provide the basis for evolution. It is far more common for mutations to result in a loss or corruption of information, which will not provide the necessary basis for development, unless we are to assume that all of the mutations that define every aspect of an evolution occur. Mutation can and has provided beneficial adaptations. http://www.gate.net/~rwms/ Most illnesses we have become immune to through mutation. For instance many Caucasians of European descent, are immune or resistant to Sickle-cell Anema, through mutation. Side: evolutionism
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You've just re-phrased the assumption that I was disputing in the first place. This doesn't answer my question at all. Why do you assume, that it cannot provide a benefit? I have stated the manner by which the principle is applied. The difference between wolves and chihuahuas is quite large, but we know that Chihuahuas descended from wolves. You will find that humans domesticated wolves and bred them for specific purposes, demonstrating a guided process different than natural selection. Feathers initially may have been useful for body insulation. Colorful feather may have been useful for mate selection. A fan-like appendage may have been useful in making one's self look bigger to scare off rivals, to block wind from offspring while in the egg, to swim, to move foliage/debris, to jump higher through flapping, to glide, and to eventually glide and any other uses that I may not have thought off. Feathers are not the only aspect that allows an organism to take flight. It requires numerous features that enable the bird to do so. Most illnesses we have become immune to through mutation. For instance many Caucasians of European descent, are immune or resistant to Sickle-cell Anema, through mutation It can, in rare instances. However, it will not account for the complexity involved in developing from one stage to another. That would require that the sequence of mutations all complement one another or that they occur simultaneously, which would not happen. Side: creationism
I have stated the manner by which the principle is applied. It is not a 'principal' it is your assumption, which you have yet to justify. For the third time, let me ask: What makes you think that the first stage, cannot be beneficial? You will find that humans domesticated wolves and bred them for specific purposes, demonstrating a guided process different than natural selection. Yes, this is called Artificial Selection. It is the same process as Natural selection, the only difference is that Humans are doing the selecting rather than Nature. Humans tend to select for phenotypical traits whereas Nature selects for both phenotypical traits and genotypical traits. It's funny to me, because in another post where I listed Artificial Selection as a mechanism of evolution, you disregarded it off-hand not really even understanding what it was that you were dismissing. This tells me you don't research anything that doesn't support your opinions or are reluctant to do so. It can, in rare instances. So then you admit you were wrong to say that mutations are always destructive? However, it will not account for the complexity involved in developing from one stage to another. What you continue to refer to as a "stage" is not so. There are no stages in evolution, because there is no goal, there is no end-product. Everything exists and survives on it's own right. In this way all species are transitional species, as they all came from something and will become something else (except the first eukaryotes and Prokaryotes). So as long as there is an accumulation of change, there will be evolution. As long as there is a change in allele frequency there will be evolution. Side: evolutionism
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It is not a 'principal' it is your assumption, which you have yet to justify. For the third time, let me ask: What makes you think that the first stage, cannot be beneficial? I have described the facts numerous times and do not intend to continue doing so. It's funny to me, because in another post where I listed Artificial Selection as a mechanism of evolution, you disregarded it off-hand not really even understanding what it was that you were dismissing. This tells me you don't research anything that doesn't support your opinions or are reluctant to do so. I have researched it and will not waste further time on scientific inaccuracies. Artificial selection is not relevant to the natural world as it incorporates a more intelligent being maintaining the breeding process. So then you admit you were wrong to say that mutations are always destructive? I never enumerated thus. What you continue to refer to as a "stage" is not so. There are no stages in evolution, because there is no goal, there is no end-product. Everything exists and survives on it's own right. In this way all species are transitional species, as they all came from something and will become something else (except the first eukaryotes and Prokaryotes). So as long as there is an accumulation of change, there will be evolution. According to evolutionary theory, there are quantifiable stages that represent the development of organisms. Side: creationism
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Any particular Living beings can survive only in a certain range of conditions. The earth has regions and time periods which do not meet such conditions. Thus life must of either changed in a single generation, been generated by abiogensis, been supernaturally created, or evolved to suit these new conditions. A particular animal changeing its attributes to suit a wide enough change in conditions is rare, at best it may change colors or such but rarely change enough to survive a much warmer climate for example. Abiogenisis is rare and requires conditions which seem to be long gone from the earth and unlikely to return. A supernatural creator is by definition non-existent in a natural world. We are thus left with evolution, a well supported and very observable mechanism. Side: evolutionism
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HOLY CRAP. Reading this debate has frustrated me more than i can put into words. anyone who believes in creationsim is almost not worth debating with, at least, thats what im inferring from this debate. I mean truly? there is no proof that it is natural selection? how about countless books proving it? not enough, lets look at your famous creationist believers, shall we? how about the famous scientist, whom exactly i cannot recall the name, unfortunately, ill revise if i happen across it in my books again. He went on trial and in front of a full jury was torn to shreds, his argument was for the institution of creationism in the teaching curriculum. a judge concluded that he had no evidence and was not even educated in the topic. at least, the factual aspect of it. i'm sorry, but when he was on stand, and talking about the so called irreducibly complex creatures and scientist after scientist demonstrated fossil and logical evidence of evolutionary steps leading to the so called IC creatures. It was astounding to say the least to watch the person leading the creationist movement fall into peices under scientific scruntity, which im sure everyone on this debate would. One arguement countless creationists pose is that it is impossible for one to assume that through creation a full blown human eye could be created. that there is no way the human eye could function if one part were to be removed. therefore, it must have been designed. However, what the creationist is trying ot argue is not in conflict with the darwinists belief, darwinists dont believe that the human eye was simply evolved to in one giant leap, we believe that through eons of time and small incremental changes and natural selection, we have arrived where we are today. and for the argument that if one peice was missing it would be useless? let us examin the common ground worms eye, not nearly as complex as ours, yet, it uses the eye to make out basic images that it uses, it is a much more basic eye, it lacks most of the components in a human eye, yet still allows sight. i would go further but i cannot idle my time argueing with those that wont listen. im always looking for someone to debate with that may actually listen if presented with factual and logical evidence, if such person exists please let me know, Side: evolutionism
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how about countless books proving it? That assumes that the people writing the books are correct and that they even considered pursuing scientific evidence to the contrary. a judge concluded that he had no evidence and was not even educated in the topic. If he was not educated, that disproves the notion that he had the expertise to accurately represent creationists in court. darwinists dont believe that the human eye was simply evolved to in one giant leap, we believe that through eons of time and small incremental changes and natural selection, we have arrived where we are today. Why would the eye begin to develop in the first place? Even if it began to evolve, why would any adaptations contribute to its creation? The answer is that they would not, as the first steps produce no useful structure and consequently they violate natural selection. Before you answer with "mutations," remember that mutations do not add to information, but rather they alter, indeed they corrupt currently existing information. There is no reason to believe that the information for an eye (in the form of DNA) began to exist before it began to physically develop. For this evolution to occur, there would have been a requirement for coordination, but, biologically, this "blueprint" would never have developed. Side: creationism
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very good points sir, unfortunately i do have to make this quick, but ill be back when i can do edit and expand. The fact of the matter is, creationism was believed before evolution, the burden of proof that was set for evolution to meet has been met. it was the thing that everyone said, its impossible, now, with the amount of evidence, the number of evolutionists grow every single day. The books on evolutionism take the creationism logic, and tear it down piece by piece, until there isnt any viable logic left, thats where creationists come in, they then change the way that people should look at their religion. For example - creationism started with the concept that the lord created our entire world, with all the creatures in it in 6 days, resting on the seventh, correct? now, since that time, the idea has changed, now creationists believe that the world was simply kicked into motion by some higher power. but i ask you sir, who created your higher power? or what i should say. and i wasnt saying that he possessed the ability to accurately represent your movement, simply that the person that WAS representing your movement, the very face of the movement at the time, was completely uneducated. thats all. again, thanks for the great debate, i think i got enough in for now, let me know if i missed anything, if not, your move Side: evolutionism
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it was the thing that everyone said, its impossible, now, with the amount of evidence, the number of evolutionists grow every single day. Aside from the notion that one cannot proceed beyond the first phases of an evolutionary development and still be compatible with natural selection, there are other issues. For instance, as the first cells developed, there would have been two central requirements: information (to describe the cellular components) and the ability to read said information. The information would be necessary to create structures that translate such information. So we can establish that the information would have proceeded these structures. However, the information would be useless without the ability to read it. In that is a sizeable problem. Also, consider the Cambrian explosion. Over a relatively small period, compared to the generally accepted evolutionary timeline, the majority of phyla recognized by scientists rather rapidly appeared. This has been acknowledged by evolutionists as a potential problem with their theory. For example - creationism started with the concept that the lord created our entire world, with all the creatures in it in 6 days, resting on the seventh, correct? now, since that time, the idea has changed, now creationists believe that the world was simply kicked into motion by some higher power. but i ask you sir, who created your higher power? or what i should say. Creationism as a general belief refers to the notion that a higher power created the universe and the life contained in it, not necessarily the belief in Young-Earth creationism. The idea of a creator suggests that said being was not influenced by natural laws. However, I am attempting to dispute the merits of the theory of evolution, not debate the finer points of creationism. Another question could be: from where did the universe originate? I seek to find a scientific solution to the questions that have been raised in this debate, and it seems that evolution does not provide the answers. Side: intelligent design
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Basically your stating that there are holes in the theory of evolutionism, yet, when i start to bring out the so called finer points in creationism you flag me out as discussing something not of issue, if i do remember correctly, the issue at debate is creationism vs. evolutionism and i also would like to just say, evolutionism is just a theory, however so is creationism. they are both theories, they both have their wholes, and they both have there area where they do have a better explanation. now, with that being said, the parts of the creationism theory that can actually be used are based on faith, which at its roots is illogical, faith is defined as belief without reason. illogical at best. the parts of evolutionism that are known is that we did evolve from other creatures, that is based on fossil, geographic and other scientific hard evidence. The only argument you creationists can use is the fact that we cannot explain what there was before there was life. and correct, there is no hard evidence of things before life. there is no real sound scientific evidence for what there was before life, but please, provide me with any scientific evidence for anything in the creationist beliefs, besides that we dont know what started the first life. by the way, labeling things we cant explain as gods doing simply tells scientists to be satisfied with the god answer. your taking the side of st james when he said, curiosity is the greatest sin, im sorry, i dont believe curiosity is the greatest sin, i want to be able to scientifically explain what happened in the begging, even if that explaination is proven to have god involved, or a higher power. ps, i know i may not make the most sense at certain parts, just try and follow it, its late where i am, but i needed to respond. Side: evolutionism
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First, I do enjoy academic debate regarding such subjects. the parts of evolutionism that are known is that we did evolve from other creatures, that is based on fossil, geographic and other scientific hard evidence. I would posit that evolutionary theory required much more faith. It lacks the evidence that you suggest. An overarching goal of science is to discover the laws that govern the universe. As current understanding still has yet to unearth all of these, it should not be considered a problem by the scientific community when a theory is proven to be false. I will assume that some of these fossils that you refer to might be ones such as australopithecus afarensis, but the unfortunate fact (for proponents of the above theory) is that it has been discovered to not be a predecessor form in the supposed "hominid tree." There are too many gaps in the current evolutionary tree to state that any sufficient fossil evidence exists. You will find that these gaps occur in many locations that would describe important missing links in the various species' evolution. Darwin stated that there must have been an extraordinary number of transitional forms. but please, provide me with any scientific evidence for anything in the creationist beliefs, besides that we dont know what started the first life. Please provide evidence for evolutionary theory. by the way, labeling things we cant explain as gods doing simply tells scientists to be satisfied with the god answer. your taking the side of st james when he said, curiosity is the greatest sin, im sorry, i dont believe curiosity is the greatest sin, i want to be able to scientifically explain what happened in the begging, even if that explaination is proven to have god involved, or a higher power. That curiosity being referred to above does not encompass scientific inquiry. There are certainly scientific explanations for many aspects of the universe's development (and by extension Earth's), but logic and science conspire against evolution. Side: intelligent design
I would posit that evolutionary theory required much more faith. It lacks the evidence that you suggest. “Geology shows that fossils are of different ages. Paleontology shows a fossil sequence, the list of species representing changes through time. Taxonomy shows biological relationships among species. Evolution is the explanation that threads it all together. Creationism is the practice of squeezing one's eyes shut and covering one's ears and screaming, Does Not!"” An overarching goal of science is to discover the laws that govern the universe. As current understanding still has yet to unearth all of these, it should not be considered a problem by the scientific community when a theory is proven to be false. And it isn't. But you have yet to provide any such proofs. I will assume that some of these fossils that you refer to might be ones such as australopithecus afarensis, but the unfortunate fact (for proponents of the above theory) is that it has been discovered to not be a predecessor form in the supposed "hominid tree." You would be mistaken. The Australopithecus Afarensis is an evolutionary predecessor to Homo Sapiens. Source: http://www.ridgecrest.ca.us/~do_while/ You are most likely thinking of the Homo Neanderthalensis (Neanderthals) which were once believed to an ancestor of modern humans, but were later discovered to have lived at the same time as Homo Sapiens. At any rate, this presents no problem to the theory of Evolution, there will be of course shifting of species. This is to be expected. Whether the neanderthal was an ancestor or a cousin, to mankind makes no difference to the validity of Evolutionary Theory. There are too many gaps in the current evolutionary tree to state that any sufficient fossil evidence exists. This is a nonsense argument. There are an estimated 1 billion species, and about 99% of them are now extinct. And of course, the more species we have, the more fossils we have, the more gaps would exist between them. So many, that we are able to catalog the rise of individual traits. There is a specific sequence in the fossil record. There are no human remains older than 200 thousand years old. There are no Mammal fossils older than 300 million. There are no Reptile fossils older than 400 million years old. No vertebrates at all before 600 million years ago. We see fossil remains clumped in the geologic layer corresponding to the time when the reigned. And what no paleontologist will dispute is that different species existed at different times. What we do NOT find is a random distribution of fossils. There is a specific sequence relating to the evolution of new species over time. If creationism were true we would expect to find all fossils in the earliest layers, but this is not what we find at all. Side: evolutionism
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Evolution is the explanation that threads it all together.
That is assuming that it can be proven. And it isn't. But you have yet to provide any such proofs. I have. Just glance at the earlier arguments in this particular debate string. You would be mistaken. The Australopithecus Afarensis is an evolutionary predecessor to Homo Sapiens. Scientists have determined that the number of differences between australopithecus afarensis and both humans and gorillas suggests that it does not represent a predecessor to humans. You can search for the relevant information on Google. At any rate, this presents no problem to the theory of Evolution, there will be of course shifting of species. It continues to demonstrate that you have no sufficient proof of evolution. And of course, the more species we have, the more fossils we have, the more gaps would exist between them. So many, that we are able to catalog the rise of individual traits. There is a specific sequence in the fossil record. There are no human remains older than 200 thousand years old. There are no Mammal fossils older than 300 million. There are no Reptile fossils older than 400 million years old. No vertebrates at all before 600 million years ago. There is no fossil evidence that demonstrates the forms that would represent a transition between species. That evidence simply does not exist. Side: creationism
I have. Just glance at the earlier arguments in this particular debate string. I have seen your other arguments. Your arguments do not constitute proofs. Nor have you presented such. You have offered only rhetorical and polemical arguments. Scientists have determined that the number of differences between australopithecus afarensis and both humans and gorillas suggests that it does not represent a predecessor to humans. "Scientists" have done no such thing. Australopithecus Afarensis, is today as ever still considered an ancestor to modern humans by the scientific community. http://www.pbs. http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/ http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/ http://www.answers.com/topic/ You can search for the relevant information on Google. I have and all legitimate sources confirm what I have already stated. Nor is it my obligation to do research for your argument. You make a claim and it is your prerogative to support that claim. If you have any scientific literature, to support your claim I would be happy to see it. It continues to demonstrate that you have no sufficient proof of evolution. Proof of evolution: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/ This is a scholarly article. There is no fossil evidence that demonstrates the forms that would represent a transition between species. That evidence simply does not exist. The alternative being that these specimens aren't related, that they just "appeared" and "disappeared" (as if by magic) periodically over the course of earth's history for no known reason. That their appearance just so happens to correspond to common shared traits (ie fish appearing first, then reptiles, then mammals in that order). I find that exceedingly unlikely, don't you? Side: evolutionism
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I have seen your other arguments. Your arguments do not constitute proofs. Nor have you presented such. You have offered only rhetorical and polemical arguments. My arguments significantly impact the cases that I have seen mentioned here by evolutionists, both here and otherwise. You have yet to provide a substantial argument to the contrary in any case. "Scientists" have done no such thing. Australopithecus Afarensis, is today as ever still considered an ancestor to modern humans by the scientific community. The fossil evidence found was rather clear. The cranial characteristics suggest massive similarities between gorillas and a. afarensis. The body suggests capabilities that optimize its ability to transport itself through trees. Overall, the fossils are evident to consist of a creature that greatly resembled a gorilla rather than humans. Proof of evolution: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/ This is a scholarly article. The word proof suggests that it actually serves as proof. The alternative being that these specimens aren't related, that they just "appeared" and "disappeared" (as if by magic) periodically over the course of earth's history for no known reason. That their appearance just so happens to correspond to common shared traits (ie fish appearing first, then reptiles, then mammals in that order). This is not unexpected. When evolutionists are confronted with arguments which they cannot refute, an immediate distraction is in order. I have provided several arguments that clearly demonstrate that the mechanisms touted as enabling evolution simply cannot operate. Side: creationism
The fossil evidence found was rather clear. The cranial characteristics suggest massive similarities between gorillas and a. afarensis. The body suggests capabilities that optimize its ability to transport itself through trees. Overall, the fossils are evident to consist of a creature that greatly resembled a gorilla rather than humans. The premise of your argument is that this species had many ape-like characteristics and therefore couldn't be a human ancestor, is completely asinine. Especially given it's distance to Modern humans. Of course, a human ancestor is going to have many ape-like characteristics, attempting to highlight these characteristics and ignoring it's human-like characteristics, does nothing to dispute Autralopithecus' place as a common ancestor. To argue as such is very deceptive and disingenuous to say the least.
While the Australopithecus A. had many ape-like characteristics, one feature that set it apart from modern apes is it's bipedlaism and ability to walk upright. The creature also had adducted big toes, making it nearly impossible to grasp anything with the feet. This all of course is minor, compared to the utilization of mtDNA and DNA-DNA Hybridization to construct a phylogenetic tree using computer software which clearly places the Australopithecus A. as a human ancestor. The word proof suggests that it actually serves as proof. Indeed it does. You inability to comprehend a scholarly scientific work, makes it no less of strong verifiable evidence (or proof). http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/ This is not unexpected. When evolutionists are confronted with arguments which they cannot refute, an immediate distraction is in order. This is not a distraction, it is basic logic. If Explanation A does is not true. Then there must be some alternative explanation that bests suits the available facts. I am asking you what that alternative is given what we know about the fossil record. If evolution is not true, then what would explain the sudden appearance and disappearance of species in the fossil record in direct correspondence to shared traits (ie fish appearing first, then reptiles, then mammals in that order)? They are either related via evolution, or some divine force creates a new species every thousand years or so. Which sounds more reasonable? I have provided several arguments that clearly demonstrate that the mechanisms touted as enabling evolution simply cannot operate. No, you just assume (without explanation) that the first stage of a new trait cannot be beneficial. I've asked numerous time for you to expound on this argument. And you proposed the woodpecker as an example of irreducible complexity. The fact that birds exist which can peck through wood but lack many of the traits of the woodpecker verily refutes this argument as an example of irreducible complexity. Side: evolutionism
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The premise of your argument is that this species had many ape-like characteristics and therefore couldn't be a human ancestor, is completely asinine. Especially given it's distance to Modern humans. Humans have been found in the same strata as these fossil fragments. This indicates that they would not have been transitional forms. This also neglects all other instances in which the fossil record fails to demonstrate the transitional forms that would be expected were evolution to be correct. A genetic relationship does not mean that the one organism precedes another. Indeed it does. You inability to comprehend a scholarly scientific work, makes it no less of strong verifiable evidence (or proof). Or my ability to comprehend that it does not overcome the limitations associated with the theory. If evolution is not true, then what would explain the sudden appearance and disappearance of species in the fossil record in direct correspondence to shared traits (ie fish appearing first, then reptiles, then mammals in that order)? This does not accurately represent the fossil record. There are numerous instances of events that drove the existence of various species. The Cretaceous-Tertiary extinction event, for instance, eliminated the dinosaurs. You also may not be aware of the somewhat inconvenient (for evolutionists) Cambrian explosion, which suggests that numerous species emerged during a period that is much shorter than the commonly accepted evolutionary timeline. They are either related via evolution, or some divine force creates a new species every thousand years or so. Which sounds more reasonable? Considering that I have demonstrated where evolution fails resist scrutiny, it is obvious that creationism is more believable. No, you just assume (without explanation) that the first stage of a new trait cannot be beneficial. I've asked numerous time for you to expound on this argument. I have offered an explanation, without any proper rebuttal. And you proposed the woodpecker as an example of irreducible complexity. The fact that birds exist which can peck through wood but lack many of the traits of the woodpecker verily refutes this argument as an example of irreducible complexity. The beaks of numerous birds may have the integrity to withstand several repeated impacts, but that does not mean that they have the capability to sustain that. Woodpeckers possess: 1. zygodactyl feet 2. protective cartilage around the head 3. a barbed tongue to aid in insect extraction 4. a round, smaller brain to alleviate impact force This nullifies your argument. Side: creationism
Humans have been found in the same strata as these fossil fragments. If by human you mean, a member of the genus Homo, then yes. But by this very same definition the fragments themselves are considered 'human'. This is not what most people mean when they say human. If you are implying that homo sapien remains are found in the same layer then this would be entirely false. This also neglects all other instances in which the fossil record fails to demonstrate the transitional forms that would be expected were evolution to be correct. You mean like this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ A genetic relationship does not mean that the one organism precedes another. no, but it does mean they share a common ancestor. Or my ability to comprehend that it does not overcome the limitations associated with the theory. Rather the limitations are simply a result of your comprehension. The scholarly work I cited talks about something called ERVs (Engenous RetroViruses) which randomly insert themselves into DNA which is inherited by offspring, leaving a "genetic marker" which occupy about 8% of the human Genome, and considering how massive the human genome is that is a lot of genetic markers we are talking about. You will inherit all of your father's ERVs, and then you will acquire some of your own. In this way we can not only find "who" you are related with, but how closely you are related. As you will share more with your father than your grandfather. Using this data scientists have been able to construct an evolutionary tree up until the point where DNA is still obtainable. This does not accurately represent the fossil record. There are numerous instances of events that drove the existence of various species. And the creation of new species happened how? The Cretaceous-Tertiary extinction event, for instance, eliminated the dinosaurs. Yes, it eliminated them. It did not create them. You also may not be aware of the somewhat inconvenient (for evolutionists) Cambrian explosion, which suggests that numerous species emerged during a period that is much shorter than the commonly accepted evolutionary timeline. The Cambrian Explosion which I am fully aware of (thank you), is an event that occurred over the course of 80 million years. I have yet to determine if you are an old earth creationist or a young earth creationist, but if young earth the very notion of a Cambrian explosion is impossible within the young earth timeframe. The Cambrian explosion was simply a rapid diversification, for which many explanations have been offered. It could have been caused by a lack of fossilization prior to the Cambrian explosion due to soft-bodied animals or atmospheric conditions, the advent of eyes or other various explanations. Nevertheless the only problem this poses to evolution, is the rate at which scientists believe diversification occurs. This may force scientists to conclude that evolution occurs much more rapidly than once thought. The very fact that different species are appearing at different times is contrary to most creationist worldviews. The only other explanation I can think of is that they believe that God did not create life in a single creation event, but rather over the course of time creates a new species every once in a while. Which is a radical view, even for creationists. Considering that I have demonstrated where evolution fails resist scrutiny, it is obvious that creationism is more believable.* And the view that I describe above...is that what you believe? I have offered an explanation, without any proper rebuttal. Statement =/= explanation The beaks of numerous birds may have the integrity to withstand several repeated impacts, but that does not mean that they have the capability to sustain that. In softer woods they can, yes. Even rotting wood, where insects still reside. The bird may become more resistant to brain damage over multiple generations. Such a transition is entirely feasible. Side: evolutionism
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by human you mean, a member of the genus Homo, then yes. But by this very same definition the fragments themselves are considered 'human'. This is not what most people mean when they say human. If you are implying that homo sapien remains are found in the same layer then this would be entirely false. I do believe that this has been explained. Humans were identified as having assailed h. erectus and as such disprove the notion that said species preceded h. sapiens. Such a transition is entirely feasible. That is a statement and not an explanation of how that might work. You mean like this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ None of these supposed transitional fossils represent the critical alterations that one might expect. Using this data scientists have been able to construct an evolutionary tree up until the point where DNA is still obtainable. This in no way suggests an accurate depiction of the tree. It has been demonstrated that ERVs have specific functions, and it is a simple matter to document that species possess this virus, but not to state that they necessarily demonstrate development. How is it that they infected the original hosts without causing damage? Nevertheless the only problem this poses to evolution, is the rate at which scientists believe diversification occurs. The strata in the region demonstrate that through that point 98% of species ultimately became extinct. This is the converse of evolutionary theory. They also provide evidence showing that most phyla known to us now coexisted during this period. This contradicts the suppositions that are accepted by evolutionists. Such a transition is entirely feasible. There is no reason to believe this. If there was no need to begin feeding from trees with more resilient wood, any predecessor forms would not have done so and consequently not have altered. If there was an urgent requirement, they would not have survived to evolve. Side: creationism
I do believe that this has been explained. Humans were identified as having assailed h. erectus and as such disprove the notion that said species preceded h. sapiens. Homo Erectus does precede Homo sapiens. Homo Erectus lived from about 500,000 years ago until about 250,000 years ago. Homo Sapiens lived from 250,000 years ago until now. So perhaps there may be a some overlap, but by and large Homo Erectus is the much older species. That one species may diverge from another does not necessitate that the originating species goes extinct immediately. http://www.search.com/reference/ That is a statement and not an explanation of how that might work. Here is how it might work. A bird species which relies mostly upon caught flying insects, but also supplements it's diet by chipping away at rotting wood, to obtain grubs and termites. Another bird species with a smaller brain with more cushioning gray matter, get much of it's diet from rotting wood, and some very soft woods, and supplements it's diet with flying insects. Yet another species has a smaller brain, and more gray matter, it relies mostly on soft wood, but can also drill into hard wood or rotting wood to obtain insects, and into rotting woods. It can now only catch very slow or injured flying insects. The final hypothetical bird species, is one that has an even smaller brain, even more gray matter, and is better adapted to very hard woods and almost exclusively gets it's diet from trees. To drive this evolution we would need some ecological change that causes tree drilling to be more advantageous. I honestly don't know how every trait of every species arose. This is one possible explanation for the specialization of woodpeckers. The fact that the traits that make tree-drilling possible, can all potentially exist in gradients. To demonstrate irreducible complexity, you need something that cannot exist in gradients, something which has a utility threshold. You need a trait that is all-or-none. None of these supposed transitional fossils represent the critical alterations that one might expect. Okay, I'm not sure that nature or scientists are required to represent that transitions that YOU expect. Nor would that be grounds to dismiss them unless you already had a disposition to do so. The strata in the region demonstrate that through that point 98% of species ultimately became extinct. This is the converse of evolutionary theory. Mass extinction is the catalyst of evolution. How is this in any way contrary? It has been demonstrated that ERVs have specific functions, and it is a simple matter to document that species possess this virus, but not to state that they necessarily demonstrate development. Whether or not they have acquire a function is not the issue. ERVs show a phylogenetic tree which can be traced using these genetic markers. What they show us is a line or 'tree' of descent and the genetic relationship of various organisms. They also provide evidence showing that most phyla known to us now coexisted during this period. Well, yes. The phylum is a pretty broad category, as there are only 36 of them in the whole Animal kingdom, the vast majority of which are just different types of worms and micro-organisms. Most of what we think of as "animals" fall under just 2 phylum: Cordata, and Arthropoda. I'm still waiting to see how this "disproves" evolution. HINT: It doesn't. There is no reason to believe this. If there was no need to begin feeding from trees with more resilient wood Who is to say there wasn't? Any number of different events or ecological shifts could have cause a bird species to look for food in new places. If there was an urgent requirement, they would not have survived to evolve. Urgent requirements, are precisely what drives evolution. Those that are best suited to their environment survive to pass on their genes. Side: evolutionism
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You ask for sufficient scientific evidence, yet, when i point out that there is at least, some fossil evidence you simply say its not sufficient. Yet, when it comes right down to it, if evolutionists had just one predecessor fossil for our species it would be double what creationists have for their theory. Creationists base their theory on a book that some supposed holy person wrote during the middle ages. But the validity of you so called holy book is not the target of this argument so ill leave it at that. Your theory simply speculates that there is a higher power, your theory trys to propose a answer to a question that still needs more scientific exploration. As i said, neither theory does provide a complete answer. But please, point me towards one actual piece of scientific evidence that supports your theory, evolutionism provides its evidence through the fossil record, though it may be in complete. How can you hold the evolutionists to such a high standard of proof anyways? What your asking for, in a legal metaphor is for a prosecutor to provide a detailed description of every single step the murderer took the day of the murder for him to be proven guilty. We know where we are, we know there was a murder, we have evidence it was evolutionism, why do you require such vast amounts of evidence for you to even be swayed that evolutionism could be the answer? Side: evolutionism
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I say that it is not sufficient merely because such "evidence" does not provide the answers to the problems that I am posing in relation to evolution. As this occurs, you turn to assail creationist belief, not realizing that my arguments have gone unanswered. I am not asking for a fossil line that demonstrates every stage of every evolution that supposedly occurred, as that does not and will not exist. However, as time progresses, one would suspect that actual fossilized evidence of some important transitional forms would appear at some point, especially considering the effort that the scientific community applies to proving its vaunted theory of evolution. While, as you said, neither theory provides every answer, it is clear that, evolution, having been eviscerated in such a way, did not occur. There is only one alternative. The complexity of the universe and its components is one indicator. Given the probability alone, it is impossible that these factors could have developed by any other means. Side: creationism
The origin of species is not on the list of 14 unanswerable questions. Those questions refer to the nature of the world/universe in relation to time and space, the exact relationship between self and body, and afterlife. Evolution does not deal with these things. Evolution is widely accepted among Buddhists. Not only does it not contradict any of the Buddha's teachings, but it does serve as representation of the "question everything" motif: rather than accepting blindly an emotionally charged notion unsupported by evidence, the theory of evolution is based on a considerable body of evidence. It is logic based, as is Buddhism. Side: evolutionism
Third choice is solipsism. And I am not sure why people think that we might never know. People who know believe in evolution, people that don’t know believe in creationism or are agnostic. The formation of life is based upon the behaviors of the universe which is independent of the concept of god. Whether or not there is a god that created the universe we will never truly know, the answer to that question is an impossibility (this is a lot to say for me as an atheist). I don’t believe in god because the concept of god, at least in the traditional sense, is incompatible with sociological, anthropological, physical, psychological, the majority of contemporary philosophical and biological understanding of existence. To me the concept of god fits in with the concepts of the dim witted and uneducated base level human being, which makes sense that religions have been with us since before recorded history since most people in the very ancient days of modern humanity were running around with spears and foraging for roots etc… Side: evolutionism
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Creationism is something just that. Ever since the evolution of mankind, we have seen things that we couldn't have an answer to. So someone started bowing down to a rock. And now thousands waste their money on these things were "god" can forgive them. Guess what nothing started from this god, it started from this thing called the Big Bang Theory. Otherwise it is in your psychological mind on how you want to believe in this and have an easier life. With "god" you have less stress. With "god you suddenly don't want to do something such as robber. It is purely psychological, on how we have taught how this is wrong. Side: evolutionism
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Firstly, here are some questions for you creationists: -There is no need of a god, the universe may have simply tarted from a chain reaction of universes collapsing into a space-time singularity and then re-expanding due to entropy. - Assume the previous point is false. Who created god? Can god exist in a dimension where space and time don't exist? - At CERN, physicists were able to create anti-matter using enormous amounts of energy (around 30 Billion kW to create 1 nanogram). How does God get the energy to create the ENTIRE UNIVERSE? - Why does God look human? For all we know there may be so many other living species spread throughout the universe, so why does God, which is their creator as well, look coincidentally like us? -The Earth isn't 6000 years old, there are literally cave paintings that are 5 times older. -Beauty lies in simplicity. Why would God create such complex creatures? For example, why do we have 10 fingers, and not 12 (arithmetics is much easier in base 12). - Fossil records show that evolution is a FACT. Now, here comes the explanation disproving the probability argument that creationists love so much. If you're not a biochemist (why are you even arguing about something you barely know about), then I suggest reading just the part about tossing coins onwards. If you're too lazy to read the explanation, read the final conclusion, since it's pretty important. Having said that, all the calculations saying that the probabiblity of a protein forming is around (1/20)^300 are flawed, they include mistakes: 1) They calculate the probability of the formation of a "modern" protein, or even a complete bacterium with all "modern" proteins, by random events. This is not the abiogenesis theory at all. 2) They assume that there is a fixed number of proteins, with fixed sequences for each protein, that are required for life. 3) They calculate the probability of sequential trials, rather than simultaneous trials. 4) They misunderstand what is meant by a probability calculation. 5) They seriously underestimate the number of functional enzymes/ribozymes present in a group of random sequences. So the calculation goes that the probability of forming a given 300 amino acid long protein (say an enzyme like carboxypeptidase) randomly is (1/20)300 or 1 chance in 2.04 x 10390, which is astoundingly, mind-beggaringly improbable. This is then cranked up by adding on the probabilities of generating 400 or so similar enzymes until a figure is reached that is so huge that merely contemplating it causes your brain to dribble out your ears. This gives the impression that the formation of even the smallest organism seems totally impossible. However, this is completely incorrect. Firstly, the formation of biological polymers from monomers is a function of the laws of chemistry and biochemistry, and these are decidedly not random. Secondly, the entire premise is incorrect to start off with, because in modern abiogenesis theories the first "living things" would be much simpler, not even a protobacteria, or a preprotobacteria (what Oparin called a protobiont and Woese calls a progenote ), but one or more simple molecules probably not more than 30-40 subunits long. These simple molecules then slowly evolved into more cooperative self-replicating systems, then finally into simple organisms. The first "living things" could have been a single self replicating molecule, similar to the "self-replicating" peptide from the Ghadiri group, or the self replicating hexanucleotide, or possibly an RNA polymerase that acts on itself . Another view is the first self-replicators were groups of catalysts, either protein enzymes or RNA ribozymes, that regenerated themselves as a catalytic cycle . An example is the SunY three subunit self-replicator . These catalytic cycles could be limited in a small pond or lagoon, or be a catalytic complex adsorbed to either clay or lipid material on clay. Given that there are many catalytic sequences in a group of random peptides or polynucleotides (see below) it's not unlikely that a small catalytic complex could be formed. These two models are not mutually exclusive. The Ghadiri peptide can mutate and form catalytic cycles. No matter whether the first self-replicators were single molecules, or complexes of small molecules, this model is nothing like Hoyle's "tornado in a junkyard making a 747". Just to hammer this home, here is a simple comparison of the theory criticised by creationists, and the actual theory of abiogenesis. CREATIONISTS: simple chemicals ------> bacteria ABIOGENESIS: simple chemicals---->polymers------ Note that the real theory has a number of small steps, and in fact I've left out some steps (especially between the hypercycle-protobiont stage) for simplicity. Each step is associated with a small increase in organisation and complexity, and the chemicals slowly climb towards organism-hood, rather than making one big leap. Where the creationist idea that modern organisms form spontaneously comes from is not certain. The first modern abiogenesis formulation, the Oparin/Haldane hypothesis from the 20's, starts with simple proteins/proteinoids developing slowly into cells. Even the ideas circulating in the 1850's were not "spontaneous" theories. The nearest I can come to is Lamarck's original ideas from 1803! Given that the creationists are criticising a theory over 150 years out of date, and held by no modern evolutionary biologist, why go further? Because there are some fundamental problems in statistics and biochemistry that turn up in these mistaken "refutations".
Another claim often heard is that there is a "life sequence" of 400 proteins, and that the amino acid sequences of these proteins cannot be changed, for organisms to be alive. This, however, is nonsense. The 400 protein claim seems to come from the protein coding genome of Mycobacterium genetalium, which has the smallest genome currently known of any modern organism. However, inspection of the genome suggests that this could be reduced further to a minimal gene set of 256 proteins . Note again that this is a modern organism. The first protobiont/progenote would have been smaller still, and preceded by even simpler chemical systems. As to the claim that the sequences of proteins cannot be changed, again this is nonsense. There are in most proteins regions where almost any amino acid can be substituted, and other regions where conservative substitutions (where charged amino acids can be swapped with other charged amino acids, neutral for other neutral amino acids and hydrophobic amino acids for other hydrophobic amino acids) can be made. Some functionally equivalent molecules can have between 30 - 50% of their amino acids different. In fact it is possible to substitute structurally non-identical bacterial proteins for yeast proteins, and worm proteins for human proteins, and the organisms live quite happily. The "life sequence" is a myth. So let's play the creationist game and look at forming a peptide by random addition of amino acids. This certainly is not the way peptides formed on the early Earth, but it will be instructive. I will use as an example the "self-replicating" peptide from the Ghadiri group mentioned above. I could use other examples, such as the hexanucleotide self-replicator, the SunY self-replicator or the RNA polymerase described by the Eckland group, but for historical continuity with creationist claims a small peptide is ideal. This peptide is 32 amino acids long with a sequence of RMKQLEEKVYELLSKVACLEYEVARLKKVGE and is an enzyme, a peptide ligase that makes a copy of itself from two 16 amino acid long subunits. It is also of a size and composition that is ideally suited to be formed by abiotic peptide synthesis. The fact that it is a self replicator is an added irony. The probability of generating this in successive random trials is (1/20)^32 or 1 chance in 4.29 x 10^40. This is much, much more probable than the 1 in 2.04 x 10^390 of the standard creationist "generating carboxypeptidase by chance" scenario, but still seems absurdly low. However, there is another side to these probability estimates, and it hinges on the fact that most of us don't have a feeling for statistics. When someone tells us that some event has a one in a million chance of occuring, many of us expect that one million trials must be undergone before the said event turns up, but this is wrong. Here is a experiment you can do yourself: take a coin, flip it four times, write down the results, and then do it again. How many times would you think you had to repeat this procedure (trial) before you get 4 heads in a row? Now the probability of 4 heads in a row is is (1/2)^4 or 1 chance in 16: do we have to do 16 trials to get 4 heads (HHHH)? No, in successive experiments I got 11, 10, 6, 16, 1, 5, and 3 trials before HHHH turned up. The figure 1 in 16 (or 1 in a million or 1 in 1040) gives the likelihood of an event in a given trial, but doesn't say where it will occur in a series. You can flip HHHH on your very first trial (I did). Even at 1 chance in 4.29 x 10^40, a self-replicator could have turned up surprisingly early. But there is more. 1 chance in 4.29 x 10^40 is still orgulously, gobsmackingly unlikely; it's hard to cope with this number. Even with the argument above (you could get it on your very first trial) most people would say "surely it would still take more time than the Earth existed to make this replicator by random methods". Not really; in the above examples we were examining sequential trials, as if there was only one protein/DNA/proto-replicator being assembled per trial. In fact there would be billions of simultaneous trials as the billions of building block molecules interacted in the oceans, or on the thousands of kilometers of shorelines that could provide catalytic surfaces or templates. Let's go back to our example with the coins. Say it takes a minute to toss the coins 4 times; to generate HHHH would take on average 8 minutes. Now get 16 friends, each with a coin, to all flip the coin simultaneously 4 times; the average time to generate HHHH is now 1 minute. Now try to flip 6 heads in a row; this has a probability of (1/2)^6 or 1 in 64. This would take half an hour on average, but go out and recruit 64 people, and you can flip it in a minute. If you want to flip a sequence with a chance of 1 in a billion, just recruit the population of China to flip coins for you, you will have that sequence in no time flat. So, if on our prebiotic earth we have a billion peptides growing simultaneously, that reduces the time taken to generate our replicator significantly. Okay, you are looking at that number again, 1 chance in 4.29 x 10^40, that's a big number, and although a billion starting molecules is a lot of molecules, could we ever get enough molecules to randomly assemble our first replicator in under half a billion years? Yes, one kilogram of the amino acid arginine has 2.85 x 10^24 molecules in it (that's well over a billion billion); a tonne of arginine has 2.85 x 10^27 molecules. If you took a semi-trailer load of each amino acid and dumped it into a medium size lake, you would have enough molecules to generate our particular replicator in a few tens of years, given that you can make 55 amino acid long proteins in 1 to 2 weeks So how does this shape up with the prebiotic Earth? On the early Earth it is likely that the ocean had a volume of 1 x 10^24 litres. Given an amino acid concentration of 1 x 10^-6 M (a moderately dilute soup, see Chyba and Sagan 1992), then there are roughly 1 x 10^50 potential starting chains, so that a fair number of efficent peptide ligases (about 1 x 10^31) could be produced in a under a year, let alone a million years. The synthesis of primitive self-replicators could happen relatively rapidly, even given a probability of 1 chance in 4.29 x 10^40 (and remember, our replicator could be synthesized on the very first trial). Assume that it takes a week to generate a sequence . Then the Ghadiri ligase could be generated in one week, and any cytochrome C sequence could be generated in a bit over a million years (along with about half of all possible 101 peptide sequences, a large proportion of which will be functional proteins of some sort). Although I have used the Ghadiri ligase as an example, as I mentioned above the same calculations can be performed for the SunY self replicator, or the Ekland RNA polymerase. The general conclusion (you can make scads of the things in a short time) is the same for these oligonucleotides. With that said, it's easy to see how the probability of proteins forming is not (1/20)^300. The reason that we haven't been able to reproduce these findings yet is because it takes time, millions of years maybe... Finally, evolution has been proved. Nowadays, many new technologies rely on evolution, such as in computer science, where evolutionary algorithms are used to simplify complex modelling problems. Now, if evolution were false, these technologies wouldn't work... however they do work, therefore showing that evolution HAS to be true, Side: Evolutionism
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