CreateDebate


Debate Info

Debate Score:12
Arguments:12
Total Votes:12
More Stats

Argument Ratio

side graph
 
 Defining Immorality (12)

Debate Creator

zombee(1026) pic



Defining Immorality

The dictionary defines immorality as ‘violating moral principles; not conforming to the patterns of conduct usually accepted or established as consistent with principles of personal and social ethics.’ This is a vague definition that gives the reader no idea of what specific things might be considered immoral; this is quite understandable due to inconstant social sentiments.

The challenge of this debate is to write a personal definition of the word ‘immoral’ that is as consistent and unambiguous as possible based on your set of beliefs and views. Your definition should, as completely as possible, encompass all the things you consider wrong, while excluding all the things you consider good or neutral. After you have posted yours, feel free to examine other answers, and point out actions or philosophies they may have inadvertently condoned or excluded. This is proving to be a very complicated task for me and I am curious to find if anyone find it quite as difficult as me.

Add New Argument
1 point

Due to the ever changing stature of the word "Morality" in question, it cannot be effectively inducted into any true form of argument when conversing with the intelligent. Morality does not exist. Justice, something that is both based off of and the basis of Morality, is defined by its coiner, Plato, as each and every person receiving his or her due. This is a PHILOSOPHY(Due to lack of bolding function, sorry) which can be argued, regardless of how many people accept it. What must be accepted is that morality does not define anything, philosophy does. As soon as that is acknowleged, you may see that morals are merely values used to directly guide people and are arrived at through philosophy or philosophies. Effective Philosophies are the ones that violate the fewest rights to people, and rights for people are achieved through logical statements of philosophy. So morals are achieved as generalized results of logical philosophy that violates the fewestor no rights of people and also build on effective, positive morals already in place. So essentially, philosophy is the building block of all things meta-physical, but cannot be applied to people as a whole because they are too specific and conduitative, so we build morals as generalizations of logical philosophical results to guide us through life. As for Immorality, that would be the noun of the adjective immoral which is given to any act that goes against the morals of the person who committed the act, such as a Faithful Christian having sex before marriage. Though that would be more of a heresey I suppose, but you get the idea.

zombee(1026) Disputed
1 point

I realize that morality is not possible to define for everyone at once, and that morals are not universal. But I think, if people give it some thought, they are capable of distinguishing what it is about certain actions that makes them immoral or moral - according to them, that is. This is what I am interested in, and I know I may not have explained it well; I want people to think about the things they think are wrong and right and define why they feel that way. If someone has a consistent view of what makes something 'right' or 'wrong' surely they would be able to put the distinction into words.

So morals are achieved as generalized results of logical philosophy that violates the fewestor no rights of people and also build on effective, positive morals already in place.

What provisions are made for the rights of criminals, and is the treatment of animals not also encompassed in your morality? Additionally, many people occasionally discard some rights of certain parties in some situations: for example, some people do not think it is immoral to beat an unruly child, or kill a murderer. These actions both violate rights, not some people still consider them moral.

TheDude(167) Disputed
1 point

Bold: (But I think, if people give it some thought, they are capable of distinguishing what it is about certain actions that makes them immoral or moral - according to them, that is.)

I dispute that in the idea that if you remove morality from the equation and instead look at its compositional DNA of Philosophy you are capable of finding what lead people to their moral statements and also find exactly what you dont think is possible: An Absolute Truth. There are always things that are right and wrong, regardless of what people think. There is always one, Single Truth. Everything else is lies and misinterpretations.

This is what I am interested in, and I know I may not have explained it well; I want people to think about the things they think are wrong and right and define why they feel that way. If someone has a consistent view of what makes something 'right' or 'wrong' surely they would be able to put the distinction into words.

I agree. Rights and Wrongs can be found as long as you find hard, absolute answers to questions: Philosophies. If you can find absolute methods of logic, those are undisputable. Thats just... True. Now if people did think about why they think things, which we have both done I believe, then they will find the errors in their own logic, but depending on their personalities, if what they find doesnt agree with them they may go into fits of ignorant rage and just disagree entirely with soemthing due to the end result. Fate, for example. Or Fatal Cancer Diagnosis. Something you certainly do not want to hear and may directly retaliate to. Unless you can show people absolute methods of undisputable logic, theyll just weigh things wrongly or disagree with it due to its outcome and lack of absolution.

What provisions are made for the rights of criminals, and is the treatment of animals not also encompassed in your morality? Additionally, many people occasionally discard some rights of certain parties in some situations: for example, some people do not think it is immoral to beat an unruly child, or kill a murderer. These actions both violate rights, not some people still consider them moral.

When I talk of positively constructive philosophies, I mean ones that work for your species. However, we do acknowledge the existence and Semi-Sentientness of our animal friends. However, Animals would be weighed far less than that of actually human brothers or should be at the least. As for criminals, they remove their own rights, or some of them, by reducing their own values in the equation, both theoretically and poetically. As for the other part of your statement, These unruly children should not be beaten, I would argue that people who consider this moral are wrong, and I would gladly kill a murderer if it meant making me the murderer and saving someone else. I have killed to greatly reduce an evil and have permanently removed the rights of someone who has already permanently removed the rights of potentially more than one. It is an overally better act, one that makes meta-economical sense. So its about correctly weighing the value of people who commit wrongs to begin with. Its kind of like a quadratic equation that always approaches zero but never quite reaches it, you know? There will always be that smidgen of evil left over. One could even use the old paradox: If a great, Threatening Evil exists that cannot be defeated by just means, do you use evil to destroy evil, or remain steadfastly just and be consumed by the evil? I argue that you use evil, for that evil always, always has the choice of being less evil or good in the end. Me Killing a murderer in the act to save a life. Evil to defeat an evil, but Im not evil persay, now am I? I weighed the life of the innocent as more than the person Im killing, a murderer who was ready to forfeit his rights for his own selfish means.

It makes sense. Economically. And thats all we have, isnt it? Our systems of the world to comfort us at night, hold us tight and never let go till one of us snaps one way or another? Sigh.

Side: Sound Philosophy will shine the way fort
TheDude(167) Disputed
1 point

Also, can you restate your question in the second paragraph? Im not sure I quite understood or answered it sufficiently.

Side: Sound Philosophy will shine the way fort

I would deem any action whereby one creates a victim as being immoral. I feel, outside of this, that one should be able to conduct themselves as they see fit.

Side: Sound Philosophy will shine the way fort
TheDude(167) Disputed
1 point

Then youd have to define Victim as well. Thats too complex a terminology in my opinion. What dgree does the person have to be victimized? Theres a slew of questions that can be asked undermining the value of that definition. Im sure theres a good one though, however its somewhat more complex and requires the absolution of a state of mind.

Side: Sound Philosophy will shine the way fort
1 point

I have been working on my own definition and honestly, there are just too many ambiguous terms to define, like 'rights', to give an example you used - what rights does every person have? So you have to read every person's definition with the knowledge that they probably have at least some idea in their head of what constitutes a victim, or a right, and so on, and that there is only so many terms you can define without turning it into a novel. Not that the topic of subjective morality doesn't deserve a novel, but that the challenge right now is to keep it both short and consistent.

A couple questions his definition brings up for me concern accidental injuries, punishment for someone who has done something wrong, and eating animals for food. All create victims, but he may not necessarily consider them immoral.

Side: Sound Philosophy will shine the way fort
protazoa(427) Disputed
1 point

This definition denies the existence of moral dilemmas.

Consider the example of three construction workers on a railroad.

If a train were coming directly towards two workers, and the only way to stop it was to push the third worker into the trains path (i suppose he is grossly obese and so would stop it), is it better to actively save two lives by murdering one, or to passively allow two people to die, in order to preserve one life?

Side: Sound Philosophy will shine the way fort
1 point

One would have to be able to weigh whether or not a direct action, or lack thereof, is worthy of its cost and benefits. In your example, is his lack of action going to affect more people than his own death? In my opinion, it is better to save the two men than the one incredibly obese man because if the obese man chose to save these two men, their lives must be worth something or be of some importance, more than his own. Also, simply by committing this selfless act, the obese man has increased the value of his own life and person, at least in relation to others who are not selfless. In an entirely selfless, purely fantastical world, which this one is not currently not mind you, this man's action wouldnt be acknowledged because no one's actions mean anything in terms of adding or losing abstract moral weight. Thereofore, in the perfect, preferable world, this man would do it regardless and be thought of as nothing more than what he was already. Therefore, The man's action is weightless in essence. SO, its better to save the two men in action than it is to passively allow them to die on the face of the scenario. In basis, your scenario is a question of whether or not the obese man's action holds enough weight to which I say no, it does not for the reasons I gave above.

Side: Sound Philosophy will shine the way fort
1 point

How about....?

Immorality = The inability to recognize, and/or unwillingness to correct unhealthy behavior.

Side: Sound Philosophy will shine the way fort