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Democracy: Hidden Tyranny, or a Just form of Government?
Yes, it is tyrannical
Side Score: 5
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No, everyone's voice is heard
Side Score: 4
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Whether democracy is tyranny or not is not something I really have an opinion on, however there are five principles to democracy. Freedom Integrity Majority rules Minority rights Social equality The US does not have social equality, and the majority doesnt necessarily rule. Whether or not this is good or bad is another discussion, but if you're asking whether the US qualifies as democracy the answer is; No! Side: Yes, it is tyrannical
Can you identify a single government which actually satisfies those criteria? I sincerely doubt it. Like all forms of government, democracies in practice fail to live up to their ideal conception. That doesn't make them not democracies. It makes them failed democracies. It also doesn't make much sense to conceive of democracies as something else just because they fall short, because regardless of how well they accomplish their ends those are still the ends they ascribe to and which define their systems. Side: No, everyone's voice is heard
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Although I am inclined to think that the Nordic states satisfy these principles more than the US, I am skeptical that they satisfy them absolutely. Certainly, I do not find your mere claim to that effect particularly compelling. How, exactly, do any of these states satisfy the principles you mentioned? From my perspective, it is inherently impossible for them to do so or else meaningless if they do. This issue arises from the principles you set forth as constituting a democracy. Freedom & Integrity It is exceptionally unclear what even constitutes "freedom" and "integrity". So much so, that I think almost any government could satisfy them and their non-uniqueness to democracy makes them useless in differentiating governments from other as democracies. Moreover, it is a fundamental contradiction for any government to be regarded as satisfying the principle of freedom because it is inherent to government that it restricts the freedoms of those under its jurisdiction in a fashion that would not occur were the government absent. The counter argument goes that this restriction is necessary for other freedom to fulfill. I generally find this unpersuasive, but even were it true this does not nullify the fact that all governments are restrictive of freedom to some extent. It is unclear which of such restrictions are acceptable under democracies when the standard given is merely "freedom". It is also too easy for our idea of freedom to become derived from those governments which we are already disposed to consider as being essentially democratic, which is a form of confirmation bias. Integrity I also regard as being problematic insofar as I do not think any government can truly be guided by a single principle or set of principles, and this is especially problematic of democracies where plurality is not only actual but idealized. How can a democracy ever satisfy integrity, and how can we know whether it does? Majority Rule & Minority Rights The principles of majority rule and minority rights are essentially in conflict whenever any majority prefers to limit minority rights. One may clarify that a democracy is defined by its restricting the principle of majority rule where it conflicts with minority rights but this to me introduces ambiguity as to how essential majority rule actually is as a principle to democracy, and why other exceptions might not then be credibly introduced to the democratic model. Nor do I find it plausible that any democracy can actually realize this hierarchical preferencing of minority rights over majority rule for the very obvious reason that the majority has the preponderance of power and history consistently shows the sufficiency of this power differential to enable the sacrifice of minority rights on the basis of majority conviction. Where democratic nations do not appear to sacrifice minority rights on the basis of majority rule, I suggest that this is incidental rather than causal. In other words, this is not because democracy as a mode of government is successful to realizing itself but instead because it happens at the time that those with the preponderance of power are more tolerant than not. This is not a unique condition to democratic governments, as it is possible under other modes of government as well. Social Equality Social equality is also both ambiguous and unrealistic as a realizable ends for democracies. I am not convinced that any democracy satisfies any conception of equality, but I think it sufficient to point out that the mere existence of different socioeconomic classes defeats the idea of equality because it constitutes a divergent degree of power and influence by individuals on the socio-politic of the government in question. Notably, the Nordic States are no exception to the existence of socioeconomic classes. General Critique Finally, it borders on a no true Scotsman fallacy to identify governments as democracies based upon their satisfying our failing our ideal of a democracy (as it would be to do so for any other mode of government). Doing so precludes from consideration all failed democracies, and makes democracy seem a more reputable and less tyrannical model than it may be in actual application. If we were to treat other models similarly, we could even develop an authoritarian regime that was not tyrannical (and even "democratic"). No government ever wholly satisfies its ideal, and though we might evaluate the success of a government on how well it lives up to its professed ideals it is not defensible to claim that the government is something other than the ideal model it is associated with. The US is not a form of government other than democracy, but we might regard it as a failed democracy because it crosses some acceptable threshold for deviation from the democratic ideals. Whereas the Nordic States might be regarded as successful democracies insofar as they stay above some acceptable threshold. Side: No, everyone's voice is heard
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It is exceptionally unclear what even constitutes "freedom" and "integrity". So much so, that I think almost any government could satisfy them I agree, freedom is just an image we believe in, not one definite thing. What I think is a proof of the integrity in the Nordic states is the trust in government by the people. Of the western world Norway has the most trusting citizens, followed by Sweden, Finland and Australia. Source: https://ourworldindata.org/trust The principles of majority rule and minority rights are essentially in conflict whenever any majority prefers to limit minority rights. True. The political system used in the Nordic states is parliamentarism. We elect a number of people from a bunch of parties to the parliament, and they together form a majority. This means that the minorities are represented in the parliament, because we have these small parties that you would think don't have an influence, but when the big guys are in need of a few people to make a majority, they suddenly get a lot of influence. Then it becomes a political trade deal. If the big guy wants the little guy's support, he needs to give him his rights first. In return he gets a majority. We don't own the parliamentary system, it's very common in Europe. You said you were Scottish, don't you use this system as well? Notably, the Nordic States are no exception to the existence of socioeconomic classes. There are a couple things we can look at here.
Literacy rate: https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/ General well-being: http://www.forbes.com/2008/04/07/ Infant mortality rate: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Listofcountriesbyinfantmortalityrate Gender equality: http://reports.weforum.org/ Class distinction: Sweden is the top scorer here, but I think Denmark and Sweden take turns on having the title of the lowest class distinction in the world: https://www.boundless.com/sociology/ I wanted to find some date on homelessness, and I wanted them to be from year 2014, before the refugee crisis. It would be interesting to see, but unfortunately I couldn't find any sources. Here is also a wikipedia page where you can flip around with the categories: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WorldHappinessReport You could say, that even though we're the best doesn't mean we're good. Sure... but take a look at the world happiness report: http://worldhappiness.report/ Denmark is apparently the happiest country on earth. Maybe not relevant, I'll let you be the judge of that. No government ever wholly satisfies its ideal I completely agree. Whereas the Nordic States might be regarded as successful democracies insofar as they stay above some acceptable threshold. If the Nordic states are leaders in educating the public, health of the citizens, equality between genders, have the lowest class distinction, .. To me, this is proof enough that they have social equality. I'm not saying that the Nordic States have mastered democracy and equality. But should every country follow their lead in the search of the ideal society? Of course, at least that's what I think. Side: Yes, it is tyrannical
I agree, freedom is just an image we believe in, not one definite thing. If freedom is just an image we believe in, then do you think it really has much practical utility in identifying a democracy from other forms of government? I don't see that it can. What I think is a proof of the integrity in the Nordic states is the trust in government by the people. Of the western world Norway has the most trusting citizens, followed by Sweden, Finland and Australia. My intuition is that we cannot really get at democratic integrity by assessing the relative magnitude of trust people place in their government. Integrity is a state of having satisfied certain principles, so to have democratic integrity would seem to require the satisfying of democratic principles. However, while magnitude of trust may assess how well a government meets the principles which people value that does not necessarily mean that the principles those people value are democratic principles. In fact, it is entirely possible that a nation could be trusted by most of its constituents in spite of (or even because of) its unequal treatment of a small number of its constituents in violation of the other democratic principles. Moreover, if we understand integrity as merely how satisfied most people are in their governments efficacy at pursuing their values then it becomes the same principle as majority rule. Nor do I understand why the trust of a majority, however sizeable, should nullify the distrust of the minority as their distrust may well stem from valid concerns about how the government has treated them (or others). True. The political system used in the Nordic states is parliamentarism. [...] This means that the minorities are represented in the parliament, because we have these small parties that you would think don't have an influence, but when the big guys are in need of a few people to make a majority, they suddenly get a lot of influence. Then it becomes a political trade deal. Parliamentarism is preferable in my view to alternatives, such as the American bipartisan model. However, I think you overestimate the influence it gives disadvantaged minorities. For a start, you are assuming enfranchisement but not all minorities have access to the political system and there are countless (undemocratic) ways for majorities to disenfranchise minorities even under parliamentarism. Moreover, this model assumes that there are not multiple minority parties whose block might be sufficient for bigger parties to gain their majority which significantly reduces the magnitude of their influence. That influence is also completely dependent upon the majority initiating the opportunity, which means that minorities are unable to advance their own needs on their own timeline. I also suspect that there are few issues so important to big parties that they would capitulate completely (or even greatly) to smaller parties. I think this model gives minorities more influence than they would otherwise would have, but I'm not convinced it's a sufficient check on the majority tyranny. I'm not Scottish, and don't think I ever said I was (what a slip if I did!). I have US citizenship. But I'm familiar with other representative models. There are a couple of things we can look at here. [Relevant and interesting data.] I know that the Nordic States are overwhelmingly better at literacy, general well-being, etc. My argument is, in fact, that though you are better that does not mean you actually satisfy the standard of social equality. I would even say that you are good at approaching equality. However, I think that actually satisfying the principle of social equality is a fundamentally unobtainable end. What I am arguing is that this means the Nordic States are successful democracies, but that this does not mean that nations like the US aren't democracies (instead, they are failed democracies). Social equality is an absolute standard; either it obtains, or it doesn't. Having less inequality is not the same thing as satisfying that principle because approaching social equality more closely than others does not mean that social equality actually obtains. I think it holds true for all the principles you identified that they cannot ever really obtain, so identifying a form of government as democratic based on its satisfying those principles should mean that we can never identify any government as democratic. Moreover, it is possible that a monarchy could satisfy these principles but we would not then consider it a democracy. My counter thesis is that we do not identify governments as democratic based on which principles they satisfy but rather upon what principles they profess to support. Whether other nations should follow suit is immaterial, because I think the original question is how we identify which governments are democratic and this is instead an argument that they should be democratic. Side: No, everyone's voice is heard
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If freedom is just an image we believe in, then do you think it really has much practical utility in identifying a democracy from other forms of government? I don't see that it can. Okay I change my mind. Free is a state of being. So if your people is and feels free, then... mission accomplished. And freedom can have different meanings. Like, a lot of Americans think the right to bear firearms is linked with their freedom, others feel walking on the streets at night being shot is freedom. However, while magnitude of trust may assess how well a government meets the principles which people value that does not necessarily mean that the principles those people value are democratic principles. A democracy gives power to the people, so I don't see how satisfaction and trust in government doesn't serve democratic principles. if we understand integrity as merely how satisfied most people are in their governments efficacy at pursuing their values then it becomes the same principle as majority rule. This would be a good point if only 51% trusted the government. But in the source I gave you 80-90% in all of Scandinavia had trust in others and the government. I'm not Scottish, and don't think I ever said I was (what a slip if I did!). I have US citizenship. But I'm familiar with other representative models. I apologize for the mix up, maybe I have confused you with somebody else. That influence is also completely dependent upon the majority initiating the opportunity Although I believe the political rules are different in every country, I can't say that this applies for Denmark. When a bigger party needs a small party to make a majority, they need to offer them something. They will not get their support for simply being the big guys, they need to satisfy the little guys, not only to get their things passed but also simply to keep their power. Because when a prime minister doesn't have a majority behind him, his government fails, and there will either be a new prime minister selected, or there will be a new election. This gives the small guys quite a lot of power, because they can basically pull the rug from under the entire government. So no, it's not only big guys who initiate, at least not in the Nordic parliaments. you are assuming enfranchisement but not all minorities have access to the political system and there are countless (undemocratic) ways for majorities to disenfranchise minorities even under parliamentarism. How so? My argument is, in fact, that though you are better that does not mean you actually satisfy the standard of social equality. I have presented statistics and articles to support my claim that the Nordic States are successful democracies. You are not convinced, and that's fine, but I would like to see some of your arguments why the Nordic states are not successful democracies. Side: Yes, it is tyrannical
Okay I change my mind. Free is a state of being. [...] And freedom can have different meanings. [...] This is even more problematic. It is effectively certain that for any given government, some people will feel free while others will not. Because the standard has now been rendered purely subjective, we not only have no way to weigh one experience against the other but we must conclude that all governments simultaneously succeed and fail in satisfying this principle. That seems even more useless in identifying democratic governments. Not to mention the incredible improbability of reliably measuring and verifying subjective emotional states of individuals in the first place. A democracy gives power to the people, so I don't see how satisfaction and trust in government doesn't serve democratic principles. How, exactly, does a government do that? This seems like an extreme assertion without sufficient warrant, particularly given that my earlier concern about the ways in which freedom is simultaneously taken and given were grounds for you to alter your conception of freedom (and power is really just a substitute for freedom IMO). This also doesn't address my other objection at all. If (most) people are satisfied with and trust their government because it oppresses a minority, for instance, that is an express contradiction to a principle you have identified as necessary for democracy. And this is not only conceptually plausible, but actually possible and even reasonably probable in light of historical abuses by populist governments. There is absolutely no guarantee that (most) people hold to the other principles you have identified, so their satisfaction and trust might be gained by a government which fulfills principles outside the democratic ones you identified. This would be a good point if only 51% trusted the government. But in the source I gave you 80-90% in all of Scandinavia had trust in others and the government. My point holds regardless of how substantial the majority is. If integrity is restricted to how well the single principle of majority rule is satisfied, then it is de facto the same principle. If we expand it to include the other principles, then the dissatisfaction of any minority cannot merely be dismissed and it becomes insufficient to satisfying integrity that 80-90% (or even 99.99%) are satisfied. I apologize for the mix up, maybe I have confused you with somebody else. I don't mind especially. ;) Although I believe the political rules are different in every country, I can't say that this applies for Denmark. With respect, I can't help but feel that you're a bit caught upon a biased political narrative. All you have done is effectively reiterate your original claim without directly addressing my concerns, and that seems uncharacteristic of you. Saying that the small parties have a lot of power because the big parties needs them is not sufficient for repudiating my arguments as to why we should suspect otherwise (either to Denmark specifically or more generally). This is especially true of my argument that some minorities might already be so disenfranchised as to not have even small party representation (or, I will add, under-representation), which makes the overall model moot. You ask how this could transpire, and my answer is that the options are fairly diverse. They can include, but are not limited to: disenfranchisement (e.g. of whole groups as of women in your own nation until as recently as the 1920s and non-citizens still today; or, criminal disenfranchisement commonly in other governments), historically rooted socioeconomic disincentives (e.g. likely contributing to the under-representation of of women in government positions in your government, at 39.1% in office versus approx. 50% of overall population), not meeting sufficient criteria for party representation (e.g. not holding at least 2% of the vote in your country, I believe), or party and media financing by either private or public interests, deliberate ballot language choices to preclude immigrant persons, timing and location of polling sites, internet forum algorithms which can be rather easily manipulated to advance certain messaging over other information on platforms or issues, etc. My understanding is also that Dutch citizens who reside two or more years outside of the country are also politically disenfranchised (and however well reasoned, this still satisfies the substance of my objection). Even if none of this had, did, or came to transpire in your country (and do count me very skeptical), that would be insufficient proof that the parliamentarism model in question is inherently capable of preventing this mode of dis-empowerment of non-represented minorities as there is nothing inherent to the model that prevents disenfranchisement. Moreover, the consistency of disenfranchisement not only of minorities of but of near or actual majorities (i.e. women) in the history of most (and I suspect all) parliamentarian models demonstrates that non-inherency very clearly. Furthermore, even if the small parties had as much power as you suggest they still lack the ability to initiate which means that while this model might approach greater equality it still is not ultimately equitable. You say that it's not only the big guys who initiate, but how could a small party possibly initiate prior to being approached by the big guys in their time of need? Until the big guys need them, they have absolutely no reason to listen to the small parties (much less them initiate anything). Moreover, it is implausible to think that a small party would be benefited at all by destabilizing the entire government (particularly as they seem most likely to be scapegoated for it). I also remain unpersuaded that most issues would be so critical to any larger party that they would capitulate to any demand, particularly if that demand is at odds with what their base wants from them and especially when there are numerous small parties they can turn to instead. All of this limits the bargaining power of small parties, suggesting that while they have some power (and certainly more than in a bipartisan model, say, like that in the US) it is hardly "a lot" of power. Sure, they can get some concessions, but the fact that they are concessions and the limits on how far those concessions can be pressed is a testament to the unequal footing small parties have in the first place (and this violates one of the principles). I have presented statistics and articles to support my claim that the Nordic States are successful democracies. You are not convinced, and that's fine, but I would like to see some of your arguments why the Nordic states are not successful democracies. At no point did I ever say that I thought that the Nordic States are not successful democracies. You have misunderstood my motivations entirely. My objection is not against your evidence, which is why I did not provide any myself, but against the conceptual integrity of your original premise that we could identify governments as democracies based upon whether they satisfy the principles you identified. My point is that no government is readily identifiable as a democracy because of how well it satisfies any set of principles (that merely establishes whether it is regarded as successful), but by whether it professes to value and pursue those principles. This distinction is why we can have a coherent concept of failed democracies, which could not exist under your account since they would simply be "not democracies". My rationale for my position has consistently been that no nation can perfectly satisfy all of the principles, in part because I think that taken together those principles ensure some degree of contradiction (i.e. the democratic model is fundamentally imperfect because it is impossible for it to obtain completely). Moreover, I have argued that other modes of government could satisfy this set of principles but we would intuitively not regard them as democracies if they professed and pursued some other values in addition (or in opposition). Side: No, everyone's voice is heard
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