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Do Numbers Exist?
In our minds, either exceedinly advanced or scarily simplistic, we interpret numbers in our own conscience. However, do they actually have an objective existance?
If you give a number to something, such as " there are three apples" then yes they have a number value. However, numbers on their own, do they physically exist?
Science can now read your thoughts and probably has been able to for years. If thoughts exist then numbers exist because brain waves are obviously taking up some kind of physical space in some way if science has created devices to accurately read ones thoughts. Just because radio waves don't have any matter doesn't make them non-existent
Thoughts take up space in the form of the collective weight of the electrons required to think up something. But this doesn't mean to say that the image of a number one imagines has a weight, because the amount of electrons it requires is variable. Now ask yourself, does one gain more weight when thinking of a chair or a whale? In fact, no weight is gained at all because no new electrons are added by thinking something up, the brain is a closed system in this respect.
Yes, but those are real animals and inanimate objects that do indeed exist physically in the real world as well as in thought. Since thoughts exist and since numerical concepts exist in thought and can even be interpreted and decoded via electrical signal they infact exist. If you disagree with me then you believe the internet doesn't exist, every word, and every language because they don't have physical existence or weight. with the added "the computer is a closed system because no weight is gained when information is created."
My argument is one of the specificity of the data, in ANY system. The brain included.
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If you were to transcribe the electrons that comprise the image you have for a chair into some sort of graph, or binaric code, and compare it to your image for a whale, their data would be nearly the same length, or density, depending on how your graphing it; converse to the reality where the data required to explain the electron structure of a chair would be infantile in comparison to that of a whale.
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It isn't the items in your thoughts that are having any tangible reality, it's your brain itself, with it's electric contents shifting about to imitate these items. It's the illusion, not the reality.
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Now about the internet. It's very much a large-scale brain. The internet itself exists, but not as an object. It exists as the ongoing transmission of electronic data between computers. The contents of transmissions, the ones and zeroes, they're just data. The computer determines what the sequence means, not the sequence itself. This is evident with how one application can make perfect sense of a file while another application is completely incompatible with the same data.
It isn't the items in your thoughts that are having any tangible reality, it's your brain itself, with it's electric contents shifting about to imitate these items. It's the illusion, not the reality.
Microwaves, light waves, and all other forms of radiation have no tangible reality. They exist on an entirely different spectrum of reality and so do thoughts. Just because you believe electrons are the end all be all of this argument doesn't make you right. If you can measure the weight and tangible matter of radiation then you can go down in history as the first person to ever do such thing.
Now about the internet. It's very much a large-scale brain. The internet itself exists but not as an object.
Great, you're starting to get it. Matter and weight do not indisputably constitute existence.
It exists as the ongoing transmission of electronic data between computers.
Exactly.
The contents of transmissions, the ones and zeroes, they're just data.
This is not helping your argument. Information has existence in relation to computers switches. In a computers case they are 1's and 0's.
The computer determines what the sequence means, not the sequence itself.
Microwaves, light waves, and all other forms of radiation have no tangible reality. They exist on an entirely different spectrum of reality and so do thoughts.
Actually, waves are on the very same reality we are in. We ARE wave formations, in the most basic form. Thoughts included. But the things which a thought conjure are not ACTUAL. Just as dreaming of having sex doesn't actually mean you had sex.
Just because you believe electrons are the end all be all of this argument doesn't make you right.
They are the be all end all, because they are the waves you speak of, because I am right.
If you can measure the weight and tangible matter of radiation then you can go down in history as the first person to ever do such thing.
You could track that pretty simply. Weigh a radioactive substance before it's half-life, then weigh it again after the first decay, and divide it by a Geiger counter reading.
This is not helping your argument. Information has existence in relation to computers switches. In a computers case they are 1's and 0's.
Switches being the electrons. the sequence being translated by a computer, that then presents itself in some way, image, sound or otherwise.
Most things are more then the sum of its parts.
This isn't actually an argument and it does nothing for you.
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Besides, let's get back to the numbers. Numbers are a concept we use to quantify things. The concept of numbers is gone without humans. A group of objects has no significance unless we assign it some significance, like a numerical value. Just the same are colors, our internal interpretation of light waves into a totally arbitrary property, when you really think about it.
But, I thought we were matter characterized by weight?
Actually, waves are on the very same reality we are in.
your right, I probably should have said different range of the spectrum.
But the things which a thought conjure are not ACTUAL
I think you're arguing something different then what I am. I'm saying thoughts exist and you want to argue that what the thought consists of doesn't exist. In this case we're both right and we're also both wrong.
They are the be all end all, because they are the waves you speak of, because I am right.
Now who's in a self contrived delusional world?
Electrons are both and neither waves or particles and change upon observation. There's no clear way of determining which they are exactly.
But, I thought we were matter characterized by weight?
We are. matter is the maroscopic scale and wave formations are the microscopic.
I think you're arguing something different then what I am. I'm saying thoughts exist and you want to argue that what the thought consists of doesn't exist. In this case we're both right and we're also both wrong.
Okay, let's get into this. You and I disagree on whether thoughts themselves are real, but we both agree that the contents of thoughts are not real? In that respect you would have to agree that numbers are not real, because they are imagined properties.
Electrons are both and neither waves or particles and change upon observation. There's no clear way of determining which they are exactly.
EXACTLY! That which is the wave is the electron, and that which is the electron is either a wave or a particle. It's the whole "a square is a rectangle but a rectangle is not always a square"... Ergo we ARE waves, or particles, but waves are still more basic than particles. Therefore the most minimal form reality can take is a series of waves.
I really am not going to argue with someone who cannot accept the concept that abstract objects exist. As the word abstract suggest. "Existing in thought or as an idea but not having a physical or concrete existence." I also don't believe I can argue with anyone who doesn't believe thoughts exist. They also shouldn't beable to think and present there ideas in the abstract.
NOW you're not going to argue? What was all that before?! Come on dude this is the most fun I've had in MONTHS on this site. Honestly.
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If you believe things that don't meet the criteria of existence actually exists, you're kidding yourself. It's abstract because it isn't real, just as the name suggests. Concepts are just concepts, not real but abstract. Just as God, Celestial Tea Cups, or Cthulhu do not exist.
NOW you're not going to argue? What was all that before?! Come on dude this is the most fun I've had in MONTHS on this site. Honestly.
Lol, in that case I'm sorry I just about spoiled your fun.
If you believe things that don't meet the criteria of existence actually exists, you're kidding yourself.
ex·ist
Have objective reality or being.
Be found, esp. in a particular place or situation.
But, it does meet the criteria of existing and it can be found in a particular place and does have an objective being.
It's abstract because it isn't real, just as the name suggests.
It exists in the abstract. Concepts are real things. That's why there is an objective word for it. Because it exists even if it be in the abstract.
Just as God, Celestial Tea Cups, or Cthulhu do not exist.
They do exist if only be it in ones mind.
Thanks to all these apparently non-existant things you so claim them to be. You have computers, satellites, knowledge, measurement, and even flight. I don't see how an idea cannot exist.
It requires the same neural "weight" to think of a chair, whale, or nothing all. It isn't the object imagined that has weight, it's just the mind imagining it.
It may not have a physical existence but, as far as I can tell brain waves do exist. Much like a radio signal our brains calculating numbers give a brain wave signal and that signal would contain the numerical thought. So, yes they do exist.
(note: This is very scary technology and only 174 people make any note of actually hearing about it. Weird how science is now able to read our minds. Even if preliminary in structure.)
Also, this documentary talks about "blinding lasers"
These lasers can make lego men catch on fire and the blue laser can pop 100 ballons in a row from across the room.
I think that bananas cause global warming. Why you ask? Because. Just because. Just kidding I'm not that stupid. I have an actual argument. The growing of banana trees is actually reverse systematic. They breathe out Co2. Therefore, it kills everything around it instantly. You think I'm making this up? Check out Wikipedia.com. That's the only reliable source I get my info from. Also, considering bananas are parthenocarpic, they will eventually wipe out humanity. Since bananas need to be counted in our society, yes, numbers do exist.
Of course numbers exist. I can look at two soda cans, and I can see that there are two soda cans, or dos soda cans. No matter what language you speak or what race you are, there are not one, three, or four soda cans, there are two. Numbers are the only true connection between languages, because in any language ever, it is accepted that two entities are present. Numbers do not PHYSICALLY look the same. We might use lines or tally marks while an alien from another planet uses dots or what we would call triangles. Humans did not invent the form of counting things and noticing that there are two hypothetical soda cans. Anything that was sentient could look at objects and decide whether there are one or two there. An owl might look down and notice two mice running on the ground. He doesn't simply not see one or think that there is only one there.
Numbers do not physically exist. They're just mathematical constructs. But they're useful for describing things that do exist, physically or otherwise.
For a second I thought you were talking about peeing. :)
A physical number one would be a representation of the number one, but not the actual number one. Like how a Superman action figure is not really Superman.
Numbers were created by mankind to make life easier. However, numbers are not made of matter, so technically, numbers do not exist in this world, but in our minds.
Actually, I did get the joke. It's an old old old geek joke. I was just commenting on how you basically said, fuck me, fuck you and fuck everyone else because hexadecimal is nearly impossible to understand. lol :P
Indeed, F stands for 15 in hex but, the sentence doesn't really constitute any numerical value without losing all sense. "and F the rest" would be considered to me an insult but, the joke is that Hex stands for 15. If I said "and 15 the rest" people would look at me and go... What are you smokin?
See what I'm sayin'? It's a clever way to throw hex in your face but at the cost of all sense. Which leads me to believe a Geek did not write the joke.
Whoever wrote it I applaud them, because it's funny as shit and throws the binary joke on it's head. About the geek comment, do you think geeks have some criteria they have to meet to be considered geeky enough to make said joke? Like that tool in high school who would point out your band shirt and say "I bet you can't name twelve of their songs!"?
I do believe you have to meet a criteria to be a geek. Usually geeks are very intelligent and I'm sure can distinguish when a statement will not make any sense what so ever. Either for hexadecimal or for English.
See, I think that's counterproductive to geekdom, to have some standard to meet; being as most geeks ARE geeks because they didn't live up to social standards imposed on them, (i.e. dress cool, get into sports, be active, blah blah blah). I think that BECAUSE of these standards geeks put on each other, it has become cool to be a geek or nerd, which really pisses me off, because it breeds elitism and asshole-ness among those cultures. Now I don't even fit in with those.
It's not really a choice, and that's the point. It sucks, you get bullied and picked on. But you are what you are, and to pretend to be someone else is just a lie.
