CreateDebate is a social debate community built around ideas, discussion and democracy.
If this is your first time checking out a debate, here are some quick tips to help get you started:
Arguments with the highest score are displayed first.
Argument replies (both in favor and in opposition) are displayed below the original argument.
To follow along, you may find it helpful to show and hide the replies displayed below each argument.
To vote for an argument, use these icons:
You have the power to cast exactly one vote (either up or down) for each argument.
Once you vote, the icon will become grayed out and the argument's score will change.
Yes, you can change your vote.
Debate scores, side scores and tag scores are automatically calculated by an algorithm that primarily takes argument scores into account.
All scores are updated in real-time.
To learn more about the CreateDebate scoring system, check out the FAQ.
When you are ready to voice your opinion, use the Add Argument button to create an argument.
If you would like to address an existing argument, use the Support and Dispute link within that argument to create a new reply.
You can share this debate in three different ways:
#1
#2
#3
Paste this URL into an email or IM:
Click here to send this debate via your default email application.
Click here to login and CreateDebate will send an email for you.
Do Transgender's Have A Mental Disorder?
This is a very controversial topics and some people might hate me for it but it is a debatable topic nonetheless so I would like to see your opinions on the issue.
I think from a medical perspective on the topic they do have a mental disorder because biologically males cannot become females and vice versa and our bodies operate differently from each other. We think and act different, we possess and release different amounts of hormones, etc. Even with all the hormone therapy and a sex change they are still are miles away in the case of becoming exactly like the opposite sex for example women who try to change cannot release sperm naturally or think like a man, men who attempt to become a women cannot get pregnant, give birth naturally, give a baby milk, or think as a woman would. To further elaborate these people have Gender Identity Disorder which causes the individual to have a 44-54% suicide rate. Kids that possess this naturally get through it without any help 96% of the time. My advise on the issue is let the person resolve it out themselves accept in the case which they can't or if the individual has both reproductive organs. In that case you could just open him/her up to observe which reproductive system they possess and make the decision that way.
I think from a medical perspective on the topic they do have a mental disorder because biologically males cannot become females and vice versa and our bodies operate differently from each other
Problem: Transgender refers to gender, you are referring to sex.
To further elaborate these people have Gender Identity Disorder which causes the individual to have a 44-54% suicide rate.
Considering how they are treated, that isn't surprising.
Kids that possess this naturally get through it without any help 96% of the time.
The definition of a mental/psychological disorder is "a behaviour or mental pattern that causes significant distress or impairment of personal functioning". It is safe to say that feeling as though you are in the wrong body is significantly distressing.
Being transgender causes distress and is something that is psychologically abnormal (less than 1% of people), so it can be defined as a mental disorder.
Another reason is that there is a strong case to be made that it is linked to body dysmorphia (where someone goes to exceptional measures thinking that a part of their body is flawed) and severe depression. There isn't lots of data around the subject, as transgenderism is a fairly new phenomenon, but most sources say that there are exceptionally high rates of suicide among transgenders (some studies say up to 50%), and, although the rates drop for a year or two after surgery, they go right back up a few years later. At the end of the day, pretending there is nothing abnormal about being transgender is harmful both to actual transgender people, and society in general.
Having said this, transgender people should still be treated with respect and dignity, the same way someone with anorexia or depression should be treated with respect. The fact that someone is suffering from a mental disorder does not change the fact that they are human and should be treated with basic levels of respect.
More correctly, the distress is often from others who have yet to understand the world around them.
there are exceptionally high rates of suicide among transgenders
Again, this is often caused by other people who have yet to turn their brains on.
Having said this, transgender people should still be treated with respect and dignity, the same way someone with anorexia or depression should be treated with respect.
And, those who say such things deserve no respect whatsoever, especially considering Transgenderism has been declassified as a mental disorder by the World Health Organization last year.
More correctly, the distress is often from others who have yet to understand the world around them.
It’s most often due to a chemical imbalance resulting from unnaturally high levels of behavior altering sex hormones that are consumed for the sake of transition. The disproportionate rates of suicide and depression among transgender individuals persist regardless of the cultural acceptance of their surroundings, such as in San Francisco.
those who say such things deserve no respect whatsoever, especially considering Transgenderism has been declassified as a mental disorder by the World Health Organization last year.
To say those who call for the respect of everyone’s humanity are undeserving of respect is a statement which deserves no respect.
The claim that significant, disproportionately high rates of depression and suicide among transgender people is primarily environmental is a hypothesis which is not well supported. It is primarily an emotional wish of those who want reality to be other than it is. In ignoring these realities, you are ignoring the causes of serious suffering among those you proportion to support. In which case you are more vicious toward transgender people than your opponents.
The claim that significant, disproportionately high rates of depression and suicide among transgender people is primarily environmental is a hypothesis which is not well supported.
Both of your sources make the claim, and both offer little support for said claim. The .org source relies on correlation between stressors and depression/suicide. That correlation does not account for the fact that the highest rate of suicide is among white people according to AFSP, despite their lower rates of environmental stressors. You can’t make a causal claim if the correlation isn’t even consistent.
Your .ca source relies on one UK survey showing decreased depression immediately post-op, which was already acknowledged by your other opponent.
Both of your sources make the claim, and both offer little support for said claim.
The first report is based on over 12,000 respondents and dozens of peer reviewed studies, how is that little support offered?
The second is suicide prevention, the folks who get the vast majority of details from the people who call in coupled with an army of health care workers. Again, how is this little support?
The first report is based on over 12,000 respondents
Over 17000 respondents. They only kept the ones where more than 50% was completed. The link to the “survey” is a paper about the survey and does not include the questions. There is also no comparative study. But if you did do a comparative study, you would find that all kids between 13 and 17 have problems and what they don’t know is that a big part of their problem is hormones. A survey would be worthless at telling you an underlying biological cause. Both of your sources make the same assertion as you, which is great. But it’s still not a well supported assertion, even within your sources.
My position is not that trans people wouldn’t be less suicidal with better social support and more acceptance. It makes sense that they would be. My position is that their environmental stressors does not account for all of the significantly higher rates of suicide and depression. That’s why they are still higher even in places that are accepting. My position, rather, is that you are dead wrong to hold a position of disrespect toward those who perceive Transgenderism as a mental health issue while promoting the extension of common courtesy and human decency that would be extended to anyone.
Do you think that your opponent is mean to people with Downsyndrome or Autism? Do you perceive people with disabilities to be “less than”?
Denials of these well supported "assertions" are not well supported.
My position is that their environmental stressors does not account for all of the significantly higher rates of suicide and depression.
Not all cases, of course, but certainly a significant proportion according to the stats.
My position, rather, is that you are dead wrong to hold a position of disrespect toward those who perceive Transgenderism as a mental health issue
That's fine, I have no problem with that because the stats show them to be wrong.
Do you think that your opponent is mean to people with Downsyndrome or Autism? Do you perceive people with disabilities to be “less than”?
No idea, but it certainly would be disrespectful to lump transgenders in the same capacity as Downsyndrome or Autism. The World Health Organization has already made that clear.
Denials of these well supported "assertions" are not well supported.
I’ve already supported it. Surveys can tell you nothing about underlying biological causes. Correlation is not causation and the correlation drawn in this case doesn’t even hold consistently.
That's fine, I have no problem with that because the stats show them to be wrong.
Surveys and politically motivated authorities suggest they are wrong. But they aren’t talking about surveys or appealing to authority.
it certainly would be disrespectful to lump transgenders in the same capacity as Downsyndrome or Autism.
How about body integrity identity disorder. Is that more respectful? BIID sufferers wish to remove a limb they feel does not belong. Do you believe they are less than you for their issue?
You need a research paper to know that surveys can’t tell you a damn thing about biological causes?
BIID isn’t a straw man, it’s a disorder. One where it’s sufferers are unhappy with a particular aspect of their body. They often feel that a limb does not belong. Here’s the thing though, it would belong if not for their disordered perception. Their genes put that limb there, but they desire otherwise.
I would like to see research papers, studies and statistics considering that's what they are working with to make their determinations that transgenderism is not a mental disorder.
BIID isn’t a straw man, it’s a disorder.
That's fine, but it has nothing to do with this discussion, so it's a strawman.
It’s fine that the powers that be don’t want to classify Transgenderism as a disorder, but this won’t make the transgender mind more well ordered. Pretending social norms have primacy over biology won’t lead to long term healthier outcomes. And regardless of your opinion concerning disorders, genetically male mammals cannot be turned into genetically female mammals.
After all the letters in the LGBDQT etc are fully accepted, they will have to find another reason why trans people disproportionately suffer from other, still classified disorders.
There are no research papers on turning male mammals into female mammals. That’s not an actual thing that can be done.
Could you describe those and provide some evidence for support?
ADHD, mild autism, and of course overwhelmingly gender dysphoria (still a disorder). The distinction between gender dysphoria and Transgenderism arose because recent social movements made it faddish to claim the biologically disjunctive gender, which people now do without feeling “dysphoria”. That same fad gives troubled and confused kids an easy answer to their issues, leading to the existence of Rapid Onset Gender Dysphoria.
In a world of only two sexes, and a few rare genetic disorders, two genders is no longer enough. The same bogus fad has also lead to infinite genders.
It’s most often due to a chemical imbalance resulting from unnaturally high levels of behavior altering sex hormones that are consumed for the sake of transition.
Amarel, you are a dishonest imbecile who uses poncy language to purposefully create the false impression that you are an authority on whatever given subject it is that you happen to be talking shit about. It is boring, stupid and classically indicative of a narcissistic personality disorder.
Council for Evidence-Based Psychiatry
Myth of the chemical imbalance
Psychiatric drugs have often been prescribed to patients on the basis that they cure a ‘chemical imbalance’. However, no chemical imbalances have been proven to exist in relation to any mental health disorder. There is also no method available to test for the presence or absence of these chemical imbalances.
the distress is often from others who have yet to understand the world around them.
If I was unclear, the distress I was referencing was the distress caused by the belief that you are in the wrong body and are uncomfortable being the gender you are. It is similar to the type of distress someone with body dysmorphia might experience - it's the distress of feeling like something's wrong.
this is often caused by other people who have yet to turn their brains on
There are high rates of suicide among transgenders both before and after hormone treatment/surgeries. If what you're saying is true - that transgenders become suicidal solely based on other's reactions towards them - then it wouldn't make sense for suicide rates to drop immediately after surgery (a point where they may not pass as cisgendered), and then increase again a few years later, when they would most likely not be recognised as trans.
In San Francisco there is a 50% attempted suicide rate among young transgender people. In England, 48% have attempted suicide. In Australia, Japan and India there are similar statistics. Are we to say that in each of these places, transgenders are treated with the exact same amount of disrespect? Are we going to say that transgenders in San Francisco are treated the same as transgenders in India?
There are many reasons people could be transgender - we aren't 100% sure. Some transgender people have the opposite gender's makeup of white matter, which is why I would say transgenders should be allowed surgery as it could be beneficial, and I believe that is a choice an adult can make for themselves.
However, some have problems in the areas of the brain associated with body dysmorphia and severe depression. In these cases, the person transitions, believing that will solve their problem, but they still have to deal with the fact that they are biologically a different gender. This then of course makes it clear that they do have a mental illness that, unfortunately, we don't have a way of eliminating.
The links between being transgender and having severe depression become quite clear when you look at the statistics. 6.7% of the general US population have severe depression, compared to an estimated 26% of the transgender community.
If this isn't enough to convince you that not being accepted isn't the only reason transgenders are prone to suicides, a study in India concluded that only around 15% of their suicides could have been directly caused by their family's refusal to accept them, which still leaves the suicide rates significantly higher than normal.
Maybe I haven't made it clear, but I do believe that for a large amount of transgender people, surgery and hormones could be the best option, and they have a right to pursue this treatment - however we can't deny the fact that there are underlying mental problems that cause this and, for some transgenders, they still feel the effects of these even after surgery. Transgenders should be treated as humans, and I am incredibly sympathetic to anyone suffering. But to deny the fact that there are mental issues is an insult to people who have gender dysphoria.
Transgenderism has been declassified as a mental disorder by the World Health Organization last year.
Have we not considered the reasons this could've been changed? It has become more common to accept being transgender as something trivial, like sexuality, so it is understandable that they would declassify it in the wake of the transgender pride movement.
But if that can be a reason to believe there is nothing abnormal about being transgender, then the fact that the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders lists gender dysphoria could be a reason to disagree.
1. Cross-dressing men who think that they are women and want others to call them women, are insane.
2. People who willingly mutilate their bodies to a significant degree, are insane.
3. Gender non-conforming adults are not insane just by virtue of their non-conformity. Refusing to adhere to gender stereotypes can sometimes be a very sane thing to do, precisely because some of these stereotypes are insane.
IT'S NOT A "MISTAKE" TO USE T1 MEANING T WITH SUBSCRIPT 1 ON A SITE THAT DOESN'T SUPPORT SUBSCRIPTS, IF YOU SPECIFICALLY INFORM OTHERS THAT T1 MEANS A DIFFERENT VARIABLE. AND THAT'S WHAT I'VE TOLD YOU 20 TIMES OVER, YOU BLIND DEAF RETARDED CLOWN.
IT'S NOT A "MISTAKE" TO USE T1 MEANING T WITH SUBSCRIPT 1 ON A SITE
But it is a mistake to write t1 and then try to squirm your way out of it by referring to mythical "subscripts" which you invented after the fact out of pure stupidity. If the site does not allow for the use of subscripts, and you want to use a subscript, then it stands to reason you would have to explain that to other people. What happened is that you revealed your own stupidity, and then when it was exposed you looked for a plausible excuse, but your excuse is not plausible, for the reasons outlined. Indeed, there are many other reasons why it is not plausible, since physicists very rarely use numerical subscripts, and when they do they are always specific to something so that other people can understand them.
In summary, t1 can't have been a variable purely on the grounds that you never shared with anybody else what that variable supposedly was. The fact of the matter is that you are simply astonishingly stupid. It's really that simple.
I TOLD YOU THAT IT'S A VARIABLE MORE THAN 20 TIMES OVER.
Sure, AFTER I pointed out you had just written t multiplied by one, you began insisting it was a variable, but without EVER actually sharing with anybody else what your variable represented. Hence, you are a liar.
The very fact that I had to "insist" it was a variable means that you are absolutely batshit crazy. Obviously since before introducing it I had mentioned VARIABLE SUBSTITUTION, t1 could only have meant a new variable because THAT'S WHAT VARIABLE SUBSTITUTIONS DO. Understanding it as an EQUATION t = t*1 was complete idiocy.
The very fact that I had to "insist" it was a variable means that you are absolutely batshit crazy.
Please spare us your absurd descent into stupidity. You are literally a fucking idiot who is desperate to find a way to disguise it.
Obviously since before introducing it I had mentioned VARIABLE SUBSTITUTION
Listen very carefully you monstrously thick twat. If you substitute one variable for another then it is no longer the same variable, therefore t does not equal minus t1. t equals t and minus t1 equals minus t1. Does this compute you fucking embarrassment?
If you substitute one variable for another then it is no longer the same variable, therefore t does not equal minus t1.
Well it's a good thing that you don't define the rules of algebra. IN MATHS VARIABLE SUBSTITUTION MEANS THAT YOU HAVE 2 VARIABLES AND ONE IS A FUNCTION OF THE OTHER. You may fondle your buttplug in dismay as much as you want, but that's what the mathematical term means. You would have known it had you solved a single differential equation. but instead you prefer to fuck your own ass and copypaste google search results.
IN MATHS VARIABLE SUBSTITUTION MEANS THAT YOU HAVE 2 VARIABLES AND ONE IS A FUNCTION OF THE OTHER
A substitution obviously produces one variable, not two, which is why t = t and -t1 = -t1. Substituting one variable for a different variable obviously means that the second is not equal to the first (otherwise it would be pointless), hence why t = -t1 is impossible.
This is what a variable substitution means. We have an equation lets say f(t) = 0, where f is some function and t is a variable. We write t as a function of another variable, let's say u, so t=g(u). And we get the equation f(g(u)) = 0, which is sometimes easier to solve that the former equation. Or sometimes the initial equation is invariant with regard to that transformation, i.e. f(g(u)) = f(u). That's a way of studying equaiton symmetry. In my particular case g(u) = -u, and I was using the variable name t1 instead of u. Now get off the crack, and maybe some day you'll understand what I've written.
I've just had to explain to you what a variable substitution means you horrendously deranged cunt.
We write t as a funciton of another variable, let's say u, so t=g(u). And we get the equation f(g(u)) = 0, which is sometimes easier to solve that the former equation. Or sometimes the initial equation is invariant with regard to that transformation
If -t1 is a function of t then it obviously cannot be equal to t, you pathetic imbecile. You are just literally a fucking idiot.
If -t1 is a function of t then it obviously cannot be equal to t, you pathetic imbecile.
You proved yourself to be an imbecille in the very same phrase where you called someone else an imbecille. That is probably another record I have never yet witnessed in the Internet. t1 is a funciotn of t and it is EQQUAL to -t. IT'S A FUCNTION F(T) = -T. If you can't understand that you are a total retard.
You have proved that the large red lines underneath your frequent spelling errors do not provide sufficient evidence to you that you are actually the imbecile. Nor, apparently, do the laws of maths.
t1 is a funciotn of t and it is EQQUAL to -t
Fantastic. t = -t1 is still mathematically impossible and you are still a retard.
t1 is a funciotn of t and it is EQQUAL to -t. IT'S A FUCNTION F(T) = -T.
t1 can be equal to minus t. t cannot be equal to minus t, and that is what you wrote. Keep trying retard. Maybe you'll successfully find a lie good enough to circumvent the mathematical impossibility of what you wrote.
To start with, I want to draw a distinction between transgender and transsexual. Transsexual involves surgery, artificially set hormone levels, etc., whereas transgender merely entails choice of hairstyle, wardrobe, and pronouns, etc..
By the same token, I want to distinguish between mental illness and a mental disorder. The distinction is primarily one of degree, particularly with respect to how damaging it is to the individual.
Illness comprises an intrinsically damaging condition that has detrimental physical consequences, whereas disorder is merely unhealthy to the degree that it creates psychological or social discomfort, but does not impede basic physical and social functions.
Absolutely transsexuals are mentally ill in the same way as people who feel driven to have healthy limbs amputated, and people who want to undergo elective plastic surgery to realize some unrealistic body image (eg., look like a Barbie Doll.) They are denying their biology to the degree that they damage themselves in order to try the impossible task of changing their sex.
Transgenders, by contrast are not seeking to deny or change the physical reality of their sex, but rather the social role encompassed by gender. There is a wide range in these folks between the most and least unhealthy behaviors. Those who insist they were "born into the wrong body" are engaging in a delusion similar to that of middle-aged men who think they can still do the same physical feats they did in their teens. (Certainly the delusion of such middle-aged men are more likely to result in physical damage than are the delusions of transgenders.)
Face it, we ALL engage in self-delusion, about how attractive, intelligent, competent, likeable, etc. we are. We tend to see the world as we want it to be, not as it is. This is DEFINITELY a mental disorder.
However, so long as our delusions do not negatively impact anyone else, or create an involuntary obligation on anyone's part, they are nobody else's business.
I think from a medical perspective on the topic they do have a mental disorder because biologically males cannot become females and vice versa...
But your argument here is flawed.
Why?
Simple. Not ALL TG folks WANT to have the operations or procedures to switch their actual sexes. And not all of them really believe they are of the opposite sex than what is stated on their birth certificates.
Some TG's--in fact, probably MOST--simply feel more comfortable and happy living the lifestyle of a person of the opposing gender, or sex.
So....this is nothing more than a matter of preference. Of choice. Which of course does not mean they are suffering from a clinical mental disorder.
Its only choice, bro. What if you loved the old West and the Cowboy thing and felt you were born in the wrong century? SO you dress up in cowboy garb and alter your speech syntax to sound like an ol' cowboy dude, and you ride a horse when you can and you like to watch Westerns.
You are totally wrong about this issue simply being someone's fetish, and the freedom to act on it.
This is big time Left wing politics trying to force every State or person to accept the alphabet of LGBTQ............... unnatural sexual orientations as being normal and natural.
They are trying to push this nonsense into our public schools, trying to indoctrinate our children that these things are natural alternatives to what the science of biology has always taught us about our bodies and their design.
If you think this is simply about allowing people the freedom of living out their fetishes, you are truly brainwashed by fake news.
There is not a political speech delivered by Democrats these days that doesn't lift up the plight of these activist LGBT groups. IT'S ALL ABOUT MONEY AND VOTES!
