CreateDebate is a social debate community built around ideas, discussion and democracy.
If this is your first time checking out a debate, here are some quick tips to help get you started:
Arguments with the highest score are displayed first.
Argument replies (both in favor and in opposition) are displayed below the original argument.
To follow along, you may find it helpful to show and hide the replies displayed below each argument.
To vote for an argument, use these icons:
You have the power to cast exactly one vote (either up or down) for each argument.
Once you vote, the icon will become grayed out and the argument's score will change.
Yes, you can change your vote.
Debate scores, side scores and tag scores are automatically calculated by an algorithm that primarily takes argument scores into account.
All scores are updated in real-time.
To learn more about the CreateDebate scoring system, check out the FAQ.
When you are ready to voice your opinion, use the Add Argument button to create an argument.
If you would like to address an existing argument, use the Support and Dispute link within that argument to create a new reply.
You can share this debate in three different ways:
#1
#2
#3
Paste this URL into an email or IM:
Click here to send this debate via your default email application.
Click here to login and CreateDebate will send an email for you.
Does God choose people to go to Hell?
The only way to Heaven is through Jesus. There are many people throughout history that have not had any access whatsoever to Christian belief. Millions of people have died without any chance of knowing was ever born, nevermind that he was actually the son of God and died for them. These people will go to hell right? Therefore, is God choosing the people that find out about Jesus and have the opportunity to be saved?
I wouldn't base my theology on John Calvin. Calvin had a man who disagreed with him burned at the stake, namely Michael Servetus. Therefore Calvin cannot be a true reformer of Christianity. He doesn't have the proper credentials.
Calvin DID espouse the doctrine of Limited Grace. Where God knows all along who is going to be Saved, or going to Heaven. And who is not, no matter WHAT they do or how good of lives they lead. Or how hard they pray. According to Calvin, a Ted Bundy might be pre-selected for Heaven, while a Mother Theresa might not get the Golden Ticket, no matter her good works.
This, obviously, is a very controversial topic among Christians!
Calvin also had a notion of Irresistible Grace. It says that once your are chosen, no matter how bad you are or how evil, or how much you don't even WANT to be saved, well, tough shit. You're a-goin' to da Pearly Gates anyway.
Calvin however, admits that he has no idea why God chooses who he does and also excludes who he does. Smart man, ol' JC! LOL
I sort of like this stuff. It is deliciously mysterious and also frustrating to some of your holier-than-thou religious zealots. And the irony is just too much! To think, if this Calvinist doctrine is true, some eternal atheist sinner like me could already be secured his Ticket to Valhalla, while some bible thumper like Dadman is S.O.L.
God doesn't want people to suffer. God created Lucifer for the sole purpose to be head of worship in Heaven. It was Lucifer's fault that he and other angels decided to rebel against God that is why Hell was originally existed for only Lucifer and his other followers.
Now Hell is for people who rejected Jesus Christ as their personal Lord and Savior, or were doing satan's dirty work.
Hey, remember that time God brought seven years of prosperity to Egypt, then seven years of famine for no reason other than to entertain himself?
Genesis
41;:29 Behold, there come seven years of great plenty
throughout;all the land of Egypt
41;:30 And there shall arise after them seven years of famine;
and;all the plenty shall be forgotten in the land of Egypt; and
the;famine shall consume the land
41;:31 And the plenty shall not be known in the land by reason
of;that famine following; for it shall be very grievous.
-
No? How about that time that god had Jericho burnt down and kept all the material goods?
Joshua 6
6;:24 And they burnt the city with fire, and all that was therein: only the silver, and the gold, and the vessels of brass and of iron, they put into the treasury of the house of the LORD.
God wants people to suffer, fine. But as for your final statement, the doctrine of Original Sin started with Saint Augustine some 1,000AD, and the term "eternal" in the greek doesn't appear anywhere in those hellfire verses. But what you find is rather "in the age to come," as is correctly translated by Young's Literal Translation.
Hey, remember that time God brought seven years of prosperity to Egypt, then seven years of famine for no reason other than to entertain himself?
Genesis
41;:29 Behold, there come seven years of great plenty
throughout;all the land of Egypt
41;:30 And there shall arise after them seven years of famine;
and;all the plenty shall be forgotten in the land of Egypt; and
the;famine shall consume the land
41;:31 And the plenty shall not be known in the land by reason
of;that famine following; for it shall be very grievous.
I've read the chapter and that is actually Pharaoh's dream that Joseph actually interpreted his dream. God is basically warning Pharaoh of the upcoming drought and famine that is going to take place and to prepare for it. You also have to realize that sin is now on the earth, and so the earth is undergoing changes because of sin because it used to be a perfect earth. God isn't really allowing people to suffer when He warned them about what's going to take place. I would say that's rather smart of God to warn them don't you think?
No? How about that time that god had Jericho burnt down and kept all the material goods?
Joshua 6
6;:24 And they burnt the city with fire, and all that was therein: only the silver, and the gold, and the vessels of brass and of iron, they put into the treasury of the house of the LORD.
I did some reading last night on the book of Joshua. I read the previous chapter, and I also read the context of the verse you cherry picked.
In chapter 2 of Joshua, we saw that Rahab had hidden two Israeli spies in her house at the risk of her own life, and begged for salvation, that she demonstrated in her life that she had true saving faith in the Lord. Here now we see that the Lord honored her faith and she and all of her household were saved.
Not enough? Do I even have to mention the wonderful gift of original sin, or the promise of eternal hell if you so much as ever once lack reverence for the holy spirit?
What does this have to do with God wanting people to suffering?
If a perfect creator has perfect creations, there will be no fault found in those creations except by design. If a perfect creator is also omniscient, and produces beings with fault, his knowledge of outcomes beforehand coupled with his decision to proceed with said creation, puts desire behind his action to create.
Put more simply, God wanted all that bad stuff that you blamed on the devil and his friends.
hat just mean that god is far for perfect if fails to created a slave being (Lucifer) the way that he obeys him.... I assume that he could kill or fix Lucifer at any time but he does not, therefore he likes what he does... :D
Why must an all powerful entity have to wait to lock up Satan?
It's all apart of God's plan for His return and God wants people to have time for them to convert to Him. Once the full number of people have accepted Christ that God calls for and the signs be fulfilled he will come. Which by the way I heard from a prophecy that I've heard that all 6 signs out of the 7 have been accomplished, and that 1 more sign is needed until the coming of Christ.
Why didn't he just do that when Satan first rebelled?
I don't know. That is one of the mysterious of God that no one can really understand because of our limited state of mind. I believe that once we stand face to face with God in eternity that all of the things we couldn't ponder on like this question you've asked will be unlocked, and you will understand why.
Just because He doesn't do anything about it doesn't mean that He likes it. God doesn't like a lot of things that are going on right now in the world. God is patient with everyone, including you and I.
He will judge every single person that dies by their actions, what they spoke, and what they thought.
That still means that he likes raping and killing, because if you can stop it without and possible damage to you ...you are liking it. Especially when you read Old testament you can see that the God is a sadistic mass murderer ... so it makes sense that he intentionally created evil o masturbate upon it....
God did not create Lucifer for the sole purpose to be head of worship in Heaven. Everything's purpose is to glorify God. God knew that Lucifer would rebel, bring sin into the world, and wreak havoc among the earth. But God had a plan that would use all of these things to glorify himself even more and bring fulfillment to his people.
That's all fine and dandy until you get to the divine Apocatastasis (restitution of all things)
1 Corinthians 15:22 "As all die in Adam, so all will be made alive in Christ"
Lamentations 3:31-33 "For no one is cast off by the Lord forever. Though he brings grief, he will show compassion, so great is his unfailing love"
1 Timothy 4:10 "We have put our hope in the living God, who is the Savior of all people, and especially of those who believe."
Colossians 1:17-20 "He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together. And He is the head of the body, the church; He is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in everything He might have the supremacy. For God was pleased to have all His fullness dwell in Him, and through Him to reconcile to Himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through His blood, shed on the cross."
Hell is not eternal. Ultimately god will do away with Hell (Rev. 20:14). God will destroy hell, so ultimately God will save everyone as suggested in those passages. Hell is probably either a metaphor of what you are going though in this life, or it is a temporary state in the afterlife that we don't yet understand, like the concept of purgatory. But the traditional doctrine of eternal hellfire is just bad theology that turns God into a genocidal maniac. There is a good documentary on this called HellBound if you like documentaries.
I decided I had better not say anything else about Mike Tyson cause I figured he probably goes online and googles his name everyday to see what people are saying about him. Haha!
The "Christian God" absolutely chooses. God is BY DEFINITION omniscient. By the very definition of omniscience, this God knows all that can be known. Therefore, God already knows who will go to heaven and who will go to heaven before they are even conceived. If you deny the fact that this God knows who will go to heaven and hell before they die, then you deny his omniscience as a whole. If this is the case, then he is not a God. While this is not an active choice, this God allows certain people to make decisions that go against his doctrine, and therefore allows them to go to hell.
You are putting a limitation on God by saying that He can't decide not to know something. God can play dice also. Choosing and knowing are also very different things.
If God is omniscient and created humanity with the knowledge of each of their lives, then it follows that he also knew who will and will not accept Jesus before creation happened in the first place. Since human beings have been given the capacity to suffer eternally (hell) by the will of God himself, then it also follows that God knew when he added hell as a reality that it would invariably lead to the eternal death of his own creations. God doesn't choose who will and won't go to hell, but he allows their manifestation with the knowledge of their non capacity to interpret and understand the reality of his word, which leads to eternal death in hell.
Yes. Romans tells us that God predestined us. God had determined every aspect of us when He was creating the mountains and oceans, including our salvation. We make choices, but God, who is sovereign over everything, is in control of who goes to heaven and who goes to hell.
I assume you are quoting the Bible in this argument. Let me tell you, almost all Christians believe that non Christians will have a chance to meet Jesus when they die. It will be then when they either accept or reject Jesus. At that point they themselves will choose Heaven or Hell. But atheists won't have that choice since they reject God to begin with. If you believe and love God and live a good, moral life, you will go to Heaven and meet Jesus there.
Most atheists were Christians. But as they started researching, they also started to open their eyes. Like me, I was the biggest fundamental, homophobic asshole ever. I'm so glad I've changed.
Exactly what the hell did they research. It certainly wasn't science. If you are talking about the Bible, God didn't write the Bible, man did. Man makes mistakes, and man made a bunch of them when writing the Bible. Or maybe they just misunderstood what God told them, or could not comprehend God when they wrote it.
So you are saying that once you became an atheist you were then no longer against gays? If that's the case that is an ignorant comment to make against people who believe in God.
It would be unfounded to claim that all religious people are anti-homosexual, but it is not at all inaccurate to recount one's own personal experience of religious indoctrination that included anti-homosexual messaging. That is an empirical reality. The point of the example being rather to demonstrate that religion and belief in God does not inherently lead one to act positively towards others, and can actually do quite the opposite; it is a confounding rationale that would send the hateful believer to heaven and the loving non-believer to hell.
I assume you are quoting the Bible in this argument.
I was hoping others that know the Bible better than I would do that!!
It will be then when they either accept or reject Jesus.
Can you explain a bit more about how you see that working? Jesus will appear and say "accept me or you go to Hell"? Then how do you accept Him? There is no question that he exists - he is right in front of you.
I suggest that with your view that a belief in God is the only important factor in getting into Heaven. In your scenario it seems to me that Jesus plays a extremely minor role as some sort of scary threatening gatekeeper at the end.
Yes, Jesus will appear to them and pronounce that He is the son of God. At that point you either accept Him or reject Him. I think it is that simple. You can't be in Heaven and reject Jesus who is right there also.
As far as there is no question that He exists He is right in front of you, many atheists either see God or feel God and still deny His existence. I know a co worker who is an atheist. He was dating a very religious woman and at dinner with her family he saw an enormous bright light on the wall and felt a tremendous energy surge through his body. They both left at the same time. Guess what, he is still an atheist. God shows Himself to you in different ways.
To get to Heaven you must believe in God and love God. Plus you still must live a good, moral life. Cold blooded murderers don't have a shot even if they repent on their death bed.
There are two types of religious people: 1) the type of person who practices religion inspired by fear 2) the type of person who practices religion inspired by love. If you are religious because you are inspired by love then it won't matter if you can "sort it out" afterwords. You won't be subject to those mental gymnastics.
Kierkegaard was a great existentialiat philosopher, I'm sure you know. He said that his convictions are a result of his childhood and it being taught to him everyday. He realized the reality of subjectivity and justified his faith with the idea that one only sees the truth of a principle when they ALREADY FUNDAMENTALLY BELIEVE IN IT. So the acceptance of faith definitely has something to do with some subliminal acceptance of certain metaphysical principles which rely on theism for support, such as altruism as a moral ideal. Fear and love are just two forms of support that belief in the existence of god gives people, and this ease in living in their own minds is what they preach about. You have such a naive understanding of the ontology of faith and spirituality that you honestly believe people only believe in God because they're scared or love everyone. What a claim, but is horseshit. Don't talk like things are so clear to you and that opposing perspectives are automatically invalid just because YOU can't justify it.
You have such a naive understanding of the ontology of faith and spirituality that you honestly believe people only believe in God because they're scared or love everyone.
I didn't say that they only believe in God because of these two inspirations. Of course the issue is complicated. My point was that there are some religious people who will not pose an intellectual question to their faith. This is perfectly consistent with Kierkegaard.
Well there are two types, at least from what I have seen. The number of types is irrelevant to the point: that some religious people are not subjected to intellectual questions. But I also acknowledge all of the complexity that you are asserting. I don't see a negation, nor do I see a reason to invoke the notion of me lying.
The world tries to tell everyone that if you are a good person you will not go to Hell. That is a lie and the Bible says there is not one sinless person, not one!
When you listen to Democrats who claim to be the compassionate party, ask yourself how compassionate it is to support even late term abortions for any reason, not just life of mother. So these very people who vote for Democrats and think they are good people, are keeping even late term abortions legal. God says he knows us in the womb! He says he knows who we will be!
Live in your little word of denial. Pretend that you are good people. God does not send anyone to Hell, people do that all on their own. You don't get to Heaven by doing good works. You get there by calling Christ your Lord. He will help you be a better person but works are not what get you to Heaven.
I guess you're not a Catholic, then. Are you saying that Buddhist monks are going to hell for rejecting Christ? (Even though a handful of them restored a listed mansion and saved the economy of a small lakeland town?)
Didn't really answer the question there lil buddy.
Live in your little word of denial. Pretend that you are good people. God does not send anyone to Hell, people do that all on their own... You get there by calling Christ your Lord.
Explain how someone that has never even heard of Jesus sends them self to hell by not calling Christ their Lord. I don't think you have applied your mind to the question at all.
Say a child steals from his mother because he feels deeply that she doesn't spend it wisely enough and only buys junk food and cigarettes. His choice to transgress his mother's will (that he not steal) May be justified to the child, but we would agree that the mother is MORE justified in teaching her son a greater lesson about people's autonomy and the limits of people's rights to other people's rightly earned property. While the child sees himself as the martyr of a higher cause he is mistaken. His punishment is a result of his self righteousness in the face of greater wisdom. This is the problem with most atheists (I'm not a theist), it is that you are all so proud of yourselves as intellectuals that you truly believe your evaluations of justice and moral value as TRUTH. Self righteousness is disgusting whether it's in the form of atheism or theism.
The whole principle of belief and faith has to do with the conviction that there is a higher force and source of insight in the world. When you blindly follow YOURSELF you end up like the Athiest who cannot even fathom the idea of God because the cultural remnants of Post Modernism blind him into thinking and believing in himself as original or authentic, and thus the absolute basis for moral judgement. If you are so convicted that God isn't real that it literally just doesn't make any valid sense to you remember that it is your own personal bias which gives the illusion of your own validity. Science cannot measure the existence of a being who's nature is outside of the limits of time space and matter, because these are the insights of science: material. Science still cannot formulate a theory of manifestation that doesn't change every 10 years because science cannot go beyond or prior to the limits of reality as it is. Atheism is faith because e existence of God is immeasurable. Just like gravity, it's existence is perceived in its effect, not it's material observability, which there is none of. To call gravity a sovereign force is the same claim that the force which created existence is itself a sovereign force.
That wasn't my point. The only way to Heaven is through Christ. If you don't know Christ because of where you were born then you go to hell. How is someone born in the amazon, for example, choosing hell?
The Bible explains that All men experience the Word of God and it is up to them to accept or reject it. I don't interpret that as being the Bible, but rather the universal principles which God propagates through Christianity and all other natural religions. Then it comes down to how different people interpret the Bible which yields nothing of value. My point originally was that Ultimate Justice is embodied in God's existence and, like a parent, he has the right to punish us when we need according to his Universal Principles and the health of our soul. Asking "how" in the Bible has to be answered with the Bible, because it claims the ultimate of its own knowledge, which would mean it isn't written to be scientifically or morally verifiable. It's true by virtue of its being in the Bible. When we moralize and think God has No Reason we have to accept the superiority of his actions and wisdom as prerequisites to interpretation of the bible in the first place.
Us Christians could write a new Bible and eliminate all the stuff you don't like. Would that make you feel better?
Now that you have solved the worlds greatest mystery, I assume you are going to apply for a Nobel prize and start writing books and getting your own TV show. After all, if you said it, it has to be true. Geez, I guess we can all sleep better tonight.
I assume you are referring to Revelation 22:18 "I testify to everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: if anyone adds to them, God will add to him the plagues which are written in this book"
You're forgetting that every book in the Bible was a separate writing and the author of each book didn't necessarily have any knowledge of the other writings that would eventually be included in the Bible. So, the author of Revelation is referring to adding to the book of Revelation, not the Bible as a whole. The Bible didn't even exist as canon at that time.
It still applies to all the others. I think that's why God told John to write that in the end of the book because God knew about future events that would take place.
Read the verse again. "I testify to everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: if anyone adds to them, God will add to him the plagues which are written in this book"
The Bible didn't exist as a book until hundreds of years after Revelation was written, so that verse is clearly talking about the book of Revelation, not the Bible as a whole.
I agree. Just to add to what you have said, the Jewish people didn't even have an official cannon either. They had a general set of texts with different levels of "inspiration" attributed to the different kinds of writings. The torah was the only thing considered to be most deeply inspired at the time that the New Testament writings were made.
If you take the bible quite literally, as most protestants do, He would appear to be all of those things, plus a genocidal maniac. Or you could take it like Emanuel Swedenborg, or St. Origen, where these are not literal renderings but have deep spiritual meaning. In the ancient world they didn't write books with the intention of presenting historical factoids the way we post-enlightenment modernizers do. They would weld in mythology and symbolic language into the text without those strict boundaries, like Homer for example.
This is were the problem of evil enters into the discussion. If God is a genocidal maniac of course this works in their favor because it is like believing that there is a celestial dictator who behaves worse than Hitler. If God is a monster there is no sense in following or believing in Him. It is like deciding to move to North Korea and signing into one of the death camps, a completely incomprehensible thing to do.
You've ever read zen koans? They are descriptions of events where the meaning goes beyond the words, usually between monks or masters and monks. I wasn't talking literally, i was just trying to make a joke about my inability to understand what you are saying, but it wasn't funny anyways. Not trying to be offensive but I think we are living in parallel universes.
My point is you are saying the Biblical creators purposely painted the God of the Bible evil? This makes no sense as the Bible paints the God of the Bible as good. (Psalm 100:5) There is no Bible verse that states that God is evil. That is all I am stating. Is that what you meant?
What I am saying is that if you take the bible as the literal word of God, then you have to concede that God is a genocidal maniac because of the terror verses….
"Thus saith the LORD of hosts ... go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass." 1 Samuel 15:2-3(MORE HERE)
This doesn't mean you need to throw out the whole bible, but the idea that the bible is the Word of God (a non-biblical notion) needs to be discarded and replaced with a more mild and realistic approach.
Depends on your interpretations of various texts. For some God has predestined people for salvation and destruction. For others the actions of humans and their relationship with Christ well potentially lead you to heaven or damnation. Of course the final judge is God, so his judgment will be the final verdict.
Your right. There seems to be a gaping hole in which the true intention of God has been obscured. Why in your opinion would God have left such an important consideration unclear. Or is it just me that is having trouble with interpretations that seem lacking. I ask this question forthrightly.
Why in your opinion would God have left such an important consideration unclear.
God isn't required to give us any knowledge about his intentions. It's probably best to for us to not know. Their probably is only one true interpretation of the bible, but man sees many.
Or is it just me that is having trouble with interpretations that seem lacking.
I haven't seen you analyze the scriptures, so I can't answer this.
God isn't required to give us any knowledge about his intentions. It's probably best for us to not know. Yes, I agree, we have no privilege to know God's motives, other than God wants our love and worship. My question was more to the point that Bible is meant to guide us to God. Why (in your opinion) is it not more clear and explicit on this and other points of interpretation.
Why (in your opinion) is it not more clear and explicit on this and other points of interpretation.
I have already given you that answer. God may not want us to know. God isn't required to have a clear text 100% of the time. God's intentions are his intentions and he tells us what he wants to tell us.
Hell is not a literal place of torment, but is a metaphor for what you are experiencing in this life, the burning away of imperfections. Literalism has plagued Christianity ever since the Enlightenment. When the scientific revolution came, Christians started getting defensive and saying "but all of our stuff is literal!"
1 Corinthians 15:22 "As all die in Adam, so all will be made alive in Christ"
Lamentations 3:31-33 "For no one is cast off by the Lord forever. Though he brings grief, he will show compassion, so great is his unfailing love"
1 Timothy 4:10 "We have put our hope in the living God, who is the Savior of all people, and especially of those who believe."
Colossians 1:17-20 "He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together. And He is the head of the body, the church; He is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in everything He might have the supremacy. For God was pleased to have all His fullness dwell in Him, and through Him to reconcile to Himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through His blood, shed on the cross."
It is only in the New Testament, there is no mention of it in the old Testament. Having a hell is really not cost efficient when you can more easily reuse the material, rather than start from scratch.
The old testament doesn't ever mention hell.
In fact, Satan means adversary and it is a title in the Bible, he isn't an enemy of God, rather, is an angel that works with God. All these stories you've heard were MADE UP.
God wanted humans to be tested for when you get taken out of the system where he can watch over all of you. God may be omnipresent here, but in the next world, he is not.
Since God is Omniscient, knows ahead our choices and He also predestined prophesy, but also gives free will, the idea of election and vessels seems complicated.
God is Omniscient and Omnipresent
Its actually simple not complicated.
He knows my choices before I make them, but they are still choices made by free will, which we would make or have made regardless.
In other words if I make a choice of free will today, it's my choice of free will. Whether or not God knew 1st, or didn't know my choices 1st is irrelevant to my free will.
God pre-knowing my choices before my choices were made, doesn't change the free will that God gave to us. Although it may change how God uses that choice.
God alters consequence for
1 - His own will and purpose and prophesy. "He works all things for good" 2 - He alters consequences at times for us because of His kindness toward us. But even those interjections of God in time where also foreknown by God.
Romans 8
"28 And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose. 29 For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren; 30 and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified."
He chose the exact time to come, at the right time, according to His will, to bring forth His prohesies, working all things together so God did it.
He predestined Judas' betrayal. Not because God made Judas' choice for him, but because he knew already that Judas would be offered 30 pieces of silver and he would choose and agree to betray Jesus. So God chose him to be predestined the Son of perdition.
So then God predestined Judas and his choices to occur in order to fulfill prophesy, occuring in the day and hour required according to His prophesy. Same with Pharoah. And other events like the killing of the babies when both Moses and Jesus were born. Weeping in Israel for her sons were no more" (paraphrased)
Prophesy is God's response at the appropriate time and to every choice ever made and to every consequence that ever unfolded, past, present and future, and for His purpose to reveal the "anxiously awaited sons of God"
Romans 8
"anxious longing of the creation waits eagerly for the revealing of the sons of God. 20 For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it, in hope 21 that the creation itself also will be set free from its slavery to corruption into the freedom of the glory of the children of God. 22 For we know that the whole creation groans and suffers the pains of childbirth together until now. 23 And not only this, but also we ourselves, having the first fruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting eagerly for our adoption as sons, the redemption of our body. "
Romans 8
26 In the same way the Spirit also helps our weakness; for we do not know how to pray as we should, but the Spirit Himself intercedes for us with groanings too deep for words; 27 and He who searches the hearts knows what the mind of the Spirit is, because He intercedes for the saints [b]according to the will of God[/b]."
He already had complete foreknowledge of all choices and events ever to be made. Prophesy is His free will. He predestined prophesies at a designated time. And sometimes prophesies of God are simply just foreknowledge of events known from all the known choices and every action and reaction.
Prophesy is destiny.
Foreknown always! And predestined often! But in all thing according to His Will and purpose.
Our choices, and the consequences and the events that follow are simply used by God. We are jars of clay "should the created complained to the Creator, is He unjust?" (paraphrased)
God acts on His free will using our known choices and consequences. And He set in motion a purpose to have many like Jesus, the first born of many brethern"
God's acts on our behalf, God knowing His actions beforehand doesn't change God or His intervention, His purposes, His prophesies, nor their outcomes.
Whether happy or sad consequences, or objects of mercy or objects of wrath, or vessels of honor or for dishonor, He uses ALL for good, to fulfill His prophesies, and for His purposes throughout time.
His purposes could be as simple as feeding birds, confirming our faith, disciplining us to obedience, blessing us, and softening hearts or hardening hearts, to revealing to all of creation His children.
God knows all hearts and choices, preknown by an Omnicient God.
But knowing ahead of time doesn't change free will, He doesnt change our choices because free will still makes choices our own.
If God does choose people to go to hell I firmly believe it's NOT the people you think he is choosing. No one is as nasty as an ultrareligious nut telling calm normal people they all better be scared or else terrible things will happen to them while you sit on a cloud and smile watching.
He knows my choices before I make them, but they are free will choices which I would make or have made regardless.
In other words if I make a choice right now, it's my choice of free will. Whether or not God knew 1st or didn't know my choices 1st is irrelevant to my free will.
God pre-knowing my choices before my choices were made, doesn't change the free will that God gave to us. His foreknowledge doesnt rcancel out the free will I used to make the choices.
I don't view His Omniscience of choices and of their out comes as "destiny." God did not cause or destined or purpose my choices. He only knew my choices.
As for the outcomes of our choices, God predestined some outcomes and altered some outcomes, but does not all or most outcomes. God alters consequence for 1 - His own will, and 2 - at times for us because of His kindness toward us. But even those interjections of God in time where also foreknown by God.
He also holds back some consequences like He holds back the sea. And that's God's Love and Mercy and His Patience.
If destiny is "predestined" then that would mean God made my choices, making my choices also predetermined as destiny. Then it wouldn't be free will.
God HAS predestined prophesies!
He predestined some events and consequences according to His own free will to accomplish His purposes as foretold in prophesies.
Prophesies are in many cased orchestrated and predestined by God. And Prophesy can also simply be a recorded acct of future events.
Because God is Omniscient, He looked through time and decided where His prophesies accomplished His determined outcomes, throughout all the unfolding of events, down to the smallest fraction of a second.
Any alterations of events through times of prophesy fulfillment were also fully known, all things were foreknown.
Like the Crucifixion.
He chose that time to come, it was the right time, so God did it.
He predestined Judas' betrayal. Not because God made Judas' choice for him, but because he knew.... Judas would be offered 30 pieces of silver and he would agree to betray.
So then God predestined that choice as prophesy, to occur in the day and hour according to His prophesy.
Most prophesy is God's response to every choice ever made and every consequence that ever unfolded, past, present and future.
And He already had complete foreknowledge of all choices and events ever to be made.
Prophesy is His free will. He predestined prophesies at a designated time. And sometimes prophesies of God are simply just foreknowledge of events known from all the known choices and every action and reaction.
Prophesy is destiny.
Foreknown always! And predestined often!
Our choices, and the consequences and the events that follow are used by God.
God acts on His free will using our known choices and consequences. God's acts on our behalf knowing His action beforehand doesn't change God or His interventio. Whether happy or sad consequences, He uses both, to fulfill His prophesies and for His purposes throughout time. His purposes could be as simple as feeding bird, confirming faith, disciplining us to obedience, or blessing us, and even in judgement. But knowing ahead of time doesn't change anything. He doesnt change our choices because free will makes choices our own.
If God is omniscient God could evaluate each possible universe and all of the human decisions made in each one. - God then resolved to make this universe knowing all of the decisions that would be made in it meaning that God caused the decision to happen - not you.
If God having knowledge of something means that it will automatically happen, then you have removed the omnipotence - God now does not have the power to know and then either act or not act (which also removes the potential to be moral.)
God knowing ahead of time doesn't change anything.
Just like not knowing or knowing a movie doesn't change the movie. The movie already happened in its entirety, but the movie is still acting out every act and scene predestined and pre-known by the producer.
The only difference is it isn't entirely scripted because the actors are acting by ad lib choices creating the framework of every scene.
Not if you are the potential creator and you decide not to create such a movie.
the actors are acting by ad lib
if you are an omniscient movie creator, then you know what ad libs they will make and how the movie will turn out. So, if you make a movie with those (seeming) ad-libs, the actual cause of the movie (including the ad-libs that you knew would occur) is solely you.
In your dispute you referenced ad lib acting and said knowing the
ad libs means there is no further reason to let the movie play itself out.
You are coming from a reference point of a movie created by one who has been created.
We are limited to understand a starting point and an end point. And if we knew all in advance what would be the point.
It's like saying I want a baby. Then I make a baby. We pick 2 names that I know I am going to use. Stephen if it's a boy and Katie if it's a girl. I'd love to have either a boy or a girl. But I really would like to have a girl. The doctor confirmed I am having a Katie. I'm excited, I'm happy. I get to be a mommy and she gets to be my daughter Katie. Well even if I wanted a Katie, I'm going to call this pregnancy off now, because I already know it's a girl named Katie. What's the use in doing it now.
I think God is looking forward to a Kingdom full of his children!
And I dont think Him knowing or not knowing everything matters.
We learn because we don't know everything about everything.
God doesn't need to learn anything because He is all knowing!
We can't understand what it's like to be God.
Yet He can understand what it's like to be us.
He has a different point of vision then us.
It would be like asking a 3rd grader to detail the day of a brain surgeon. Although she may have some ideas, and maybe smart enough to be accurate some, she obviously is only a sliver in comparison to the depth of time and education and experience. But the brain surgeon could probably detail with close accuracy a day for the 3rd grader.
said knowing the ad libs means there is no further reason to let the movie play itself out.
That's not what I said at all. I said that if you know what ad-libs will be made and you make the movie anyway, you are the cause of those moments in the film, not the actors.
And if we knew all in advance what would be the point.
Therefore, if God was omniscient, what would be the point of creating the universe?
I think God is looking forward to a Kingdom full of his children!
Couldn't an omnipotent god just create them there in the first place?
Actually the ad lib is probably the cause of the moments.
Either way you'd have to be pretty small minded to think as a movie writer that if you put actors in the moment that the actors would be dictated to their ad libs. 1 person on 2 different days could react differently to any given moment or situation. So how would a writer control ad libs?
Is knowing something is going to happen make it pointless?
God could have created it anyway He wanted to. Apparently He wanted children with free will, free will isnt free will unless there are choices.
Romans 8
10 If Christ is in you, though the body is dead because of sin, yet the spirit is alive because of righteousness. 11 But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you.
12 So then, brethren, we are under obligation, not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh— 13 for if you are living according to the flesh, you must die; but if by the Spirit you are putting to death the deeds of the body, you will live.
14 For all who are being led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God. 15 For you have not received a spirit of slavery leading to fear again, but you have received a spirit of adoption as sons by which we cry out, “Abba! Father!”
16 The Spirit Himself testifies with our spirit that we are children of God, 17 and if children, heirs also, heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with Him so that we may also be glorified with Him.
18 For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory that is to be revealed to us.
19 For the anxious longing of the creation waits eagerly for the revealing of the sons of God. 20 For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it, in hope
21 that the creation itself also will be set free from its slavery to corruption into the freedom of the glory of the children of God.
22 For we know that the whole creation groans and suffers the pains of childbirth together until now. 23 And not only this, but also we ourselves, having the first fruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting eagerly for our adoption as sons, the redemption of our body.
24 For in hope we have been saved, but hope that is seen is not hope; for who hopes for what he already sees? 25 But if we hope for what we do not see, with perseverance we wait eagerly for it.
Our Victory in Christ
26 In the same way the Spirit also helps our weakness; for we do not know how to pray as we should, but the Spirit Himself intercedes for us with groanings too deep for words; 27 and He who searches the hearts knows what the mind of the Spirit is, because He intercedes for the saints according to the will of God.
28 And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose. 29 For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren; 30 and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified.
pretty small minded to think as a movie writer that if you put actors in the moment that the actors would be dictated
I think you are missing the role of omniscience here.
For instance, say I know with 100% certainty that: if I do X you will do A, and if I do Y you will do B.
If I do Y am I culpable in making B happen?
If a person (or God) knows the consequence of their actions, they are responsible for them.
Is knowing something is going to happen make it pointless?
That is the second time you have said this, but this is not from my argument. You are either misreading something, or offering a strawman.
God could have created it anyway He wanted to.
Which is exactly the point - if he wanted to create a universe where you made different decisions, he could have. Knowing what decisions would be made in this universe, God created this universe and is thus the ultimate cause of those decisions.
The Father rejoiced by a massive party for the disobedient son who returned. Because he learned his Father's ways were good and his Father's home he would never leave again
In contrast the good son worked like a slave and never knew anything but to live and listen like a robot.
He was jealous because "he earned his Father's favor" or so he thought. The Son who left and returned loved his father and his home because he knew what it was like to not be there. And even feared the Father wouldn't let him back in.
The "good son" wasn't grateful at all! He had no idea what it was like to be outside of the Fathers love or his home.
Who will make a better son from that moment on? The one that knows he has unconditional love of the Father.
Whereas the other feels entitled!
Entitlement is not a gift and it doesn't produce love toward the Father toward his home nor toward his brothers!
14 For all who are being led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God. 15 For you have not received a spirit of slavery leading to fear again, but you have received a spirit of adoption as sons by which we cry out, “Abba! Father!”
16 The Spirit Himself testifies with our spirit that we are children of God, 17 and if children, heirs also, heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with Him so that we may also be glorified with Him.
18 For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory that is to be revealed to us.
19 For the anxious longing of the creation waits eagerly for the revealing of the sons of God. 20 For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it, in hope
21 that the creation itself also will be set free from its slavery to corruption into the freedom of the glory of the children of God.
22 For we know that the whole creation groans and suffers the pains of childbirth together until now. 23 And not only this, but also we ourselves, having the first fruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting eagerly for our adoption as sons, the redemption of our body.
If you could create your child in eternally blissful heaven with you, or could send them away so they could suffer and therefore come to appreciate their love for you more, which would you choose?
If you choose suffering you choose it to please yourself, not for your children.
If we could create children to live in our houses as entitled and spoiled, and without appreciation of building in themselves the character and honor we live by, would that be better or worse than children who chose to be like their Father and aspire to be like Him and build their lives loving and modeling the qualities of the Father and following in His ways and footsteps.
The greatest moments of parenting are when children begin making the right choices. (Or what the parents instill value wise and consider "right choices," even in bad values.)
A parent can be overjoyed by many developments as their children grow. Overjoyed to see their own character growing in them, moral character, honor, honesty, nobility, intellect, success, even in greed of a workaholic, a dad leading a cartel could be overjoyed at a son who chooses to be like him.
The element of choice and free will must exist for us to be children. If it did not exist as free will, we would be slaves, not children.
Parents as people are made in the likeness of God. So even separated from God in our fallen state, we still resemble the Creator. So parenting and our pride in our children originated from God. So even if it would be nice and easy to create kids we know will do as told and would predetermined their character and choices. The joy itself is not equal!
So choice existed, even in the garden. Because God wanted joy to be full!
1God, after He spoke long ago to the fathers in the prophets in many portions and in many ways, 2in these last days has spoken to us in His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the world. 3And He is the radiance of His glory and the exact representation of His nature, and upholds all things by the word of His power. When He had made purification of sins, He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high, 4having become as much better than the angels, as He has inherited a more excellent name than they.
5For to which of the angels did He ever say,
“YOU ARE MY SON,
TODAY I HAVE BEGOTTEN YOU”?
And again,
“I WILL BE A FATHER TO HIM
AND HE SHALL BE A SON TO ME”?
6And when He again brings the firstborn into the world, He says,
“AND LET ALL THE ANGELS OF GOD WORSHIP HIM.”
7And of the angels He says,
“WHO MAKES HIS ANGELS WINDS,
AND HIS MINISTERS A FLAME OF FIRE.”
8But of the Son He says,
“YOUR THRONE, O GOD, IS FOREVER AND EVER,
AND THE RIGHTEOUS SCEPTER IS THE SCEPTER OF HIS KINGDOM.
9“YOU HAVE LOVED RIGHTEOUSNESS AND HATED LAWLESSNESS;
THEREFORE GOD, YOUR GOD, HAS ANOINTED YOU
WITH THE OIL OF GLADNESS ABOVE YOUR COMPANIONS.”
10And,
“YOU, LORD, IN THE BEGINNING LAID THE FOUNDATION OF THE EARTH,
AND THE HEAVENS ARE THE WORKS OF YOUR HANDS;
11THEY WILL PERISH, BUT YOU REMAIN;
AND THEY ALL WILL BECOME OLD LIKE A GARMENT,
12AND LIKE A MANTLE YOU WILL ROLL THEM UP;
LIKE A GARMENT THEY WILL ALSO BE CHANGED.
BUT YOU ARE THE SAME,
AND YOUR YEARS WILL NOT COME TO AN END.”
13But to which of the angels has He ever said,
“SIT AT MY RIGHT HAND,
UNTIL I MAKE YOUR ENEMIES
A FOOTSTOOL FOR YOUR FEET”?
14Are they not all ministering spirits, sent out to render service for the sake of those who will inherit salvation?
There is a pride that is sin. You are correct. And there is a pride that is not arrogant. Lucifer's pride threw him down from Heaven. "Jesus saw him fall from Heaven like lightning"
2 Corinthians 1 The Appostle Paul discusses being proud as in gleaming.
12For our proud confidence is this: the testimony of our conscience, that in holiness and godly sincerity, not in fleshly wisdom but in the grace of God, we have conducted ourselves in the world, and especially toward you. 13For we write nothing else to you than what you read and understand, and I hope you will understand until the end; 14just as you also partially did understand us, that we are your reason to be proud as you also are ours, in the day of our Lord Jesus.
15In this confidence I intended at first to come to you, so that you might twice receive a blessing; Jesus says hey you parents, you are parents and love like God is a parent and loves. How much greater is the Father's love and gifts for His children.
7“Ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you. 8“For everyone who asks receives, and he who seeks finds, and to him who knocks it will be opened. 9“Or what man is there among you who, when his son asks for a loaf, will give him a stone? 10“Or if he asks for a fish, he will not give him a snake, will he? 11“If you then, being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father who is in heaven give what is good to those who ask Him!
The choice is yours! You do not know what your choice is yet. But he does! The fact that He knows your choice ahead of time doesn't change your choice. And you knowing that He already knows your choice ahead of time doesn't change your choice.
Choose God and live
Romans 9
6But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For they are not all Israel who are descended from Israel; 7nor are they all children because they are Abraham’s descendants, but: “THROUGH ISAAC YOUR DESCENDANTS WILL BE NAMED.” 8That is, it is not the children of the flesh who are children of God, but the children of the promise are regarded as descendants. 9For this is the word of promise: “AT THIS TIME I WILL COME, AND SARAH SHALL HAVE A SON.” 10And not only this, but there was Rebekah also, when she had conceived twins by one man, our father Isaac; 11for though the twins were not yet born and had not done anything good or bad, so that God’s purpose according to His choice would stand, not because of works but because of Him who calls, 12it was said to her, “THE OLDER WILL SERVE THE YOUNGER.” 13Just as it is written, “JACOB I LOVED, BUT ESAU I HATED.”
14What shall we say then? There is no injustice with God, is there? May it never be! 15For He says to Moses, “I WILL HAVE MERCY ON WHOM I HAVE MERCY, AND I WILL HAVE COMPASSION ON WHOM I HAVE COMPASSION.” 16So then it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy. 17For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “FOR THIS VERY PURPOSE I RAISED YOU UP, TO DEMONSTRATE MY POWER IN YOU, AND THAT MY NAME MIGHT BE PROCLAIMED THROUGHOUT THE WHOLE EARTH.” 18So then He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires.
19You will say to me then, “Why does He still find fault? For who resists His will?” 20On the contrary, who are you, O man, who answers back to God? The thing molded will not say to the molder, “Why did you make me like this,” will it? 21Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for common use? 22What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction? 23And He did so to make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory, 24even us, whom He also called, not from among Jews only, but also from among Gentiles.
25As He says also in Hosea,
“I WILL CALL THOSE WHO WERE NOT MY PEOPLE, ‘MY PEOPLE,’
AND HER WHO WAS NOT BELOVED, ‘BELOVED.’”
26“AND IT SHALL BE THAT IN THE PLACE WHERE IT WAS SAID TO THEM, ‘YOU ARE NOT MY PEOPLE,’
THERE THEY SHALL BE CALLED SONS OF THE LIVING GOD.”
27Isaiah cries out concerning Israel, “THOUGH THE NUMBER OF THE SONS OF ISRAEL BE LIKE THE SAND OF THE SEA, IT IS THE REMNANT THAT WILL BE SAVED; 28FOR THE LORD WILL EXECUTE HIS WORD ON THE EARTH, THOROUGHLY AND QUICKLY.”
29And just as Isaiah foretold,
“UNLESS THE LORD OF SABAOTH HAD LEFT TO US A POSTERITY,
WE WOULD HAVE BECOME LIKE SODOM, AND WOULD HAVE RESEMBLED GOMORRAH.”
30What shall we say then? That Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, attained righteousness, even the righteousness which is by faith; 31but Israel, pursuing a law of righteousness, did not arrive at that law. 32Why? Because they did not pursue it by faith, but as though it were by works. They stumbled over the stumbling stone,
33just as it is written,
“BEHOLD, I LAY IN ZION A STONE OF STUMBLING AND A ROCK OF OFFENSE,
AND HE WHO BELIEVES IN HIM WILL NOT BE DISAPPOINTED.”
