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Debate Info

88
85
Yes No
Debate Score:173
Arguments:112
Total Votes:193
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Argument Ratio

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 Yes (48)
 
 No (45)

Debate Creator

Atrag(5556) pic



Does God choose people to go to Hell?

The only way to Heaven is through Jesus. There are many people throughout history that have not had any access whatsoever to Christian belief. Millions of people have died without any chance of knowing was ever born, nevermind that he was actually the son of God and died for them. These people will go to hell right? Therefore, is God choosing the people that find out about Jesus and have the opportunity to be saved?

Yes

Side Score: 88
VS.

No

Side Score: 85
3 points

Yes, this is an important part of the Calvinist thinking.

Side: Yes
14giraffes(87) Disputed
2 points

I wouldn't base my theology on John Calvin. Calvin had a man who disagreed with him burned at the stake, namely Michael Servetus. Therefore Calvin cannot be a true reformer of Christianity. He doesn't have the proper credentials.

Side: No
1 point

Partuially correct.

But you left out a lot.

Calvin DID espouse the doctrine of Limited Grace. Where God knows all along who is going to be Saved, or going to Heaven. And who is not, no matter WHAT they do or how good of lives they lead. Or how hard they pray. According to Calvin, a Ted Bundy might be pre-selected for Heaven, while a Mother Theresa might not get the Golden Ticket, no matter her good works.

This, obviously, is a very controversial topic among Christians!

Calvin also had a notion of Irresistible Grace. It says that once your are chosen, no matter how bad you are or how evil, or how much you don't even WANT to be saved, well, tough shit. You're a-goin' to da Pearly Gates anyway.

Calvin however, admits that he has no idea why God chooses who he does and also excludes who he does. Smart man, ol' JC! LOL

I sort of like this stuff. It is deliciously mysterious and also frustrating to some of your holier-than-thou religious zealots. And the irony is just too much! To think, if this Calvinist doctrine is true, some eternal atheist sinner like me could already be secured his Ticket to Valhalla, while some bible thumper like Dadman is S.O.L.

SS

http://www.theopedia.com/irresistible-grace

Side: Yes
1 point

God created Devil = god wants people to suffer .

Side: Yes
Srom(12207) Disputed
2 points

God doesn't want people to suffer. God created Lucifer for the sole purpose to be head of worship in Heaven. It was Lucifer's fault that he and other angels decided to rebel against God that is why Hell was originally existed for only Lucifer and his other followers.

Now Hell is for people who rejected Jesus Christ as their personal Lord and Savior, or were doing satan's dirty work.

Side: No
Akulakhan(2985) Disputed
3 points

"God doesn't want people to suffer."

Hey, remember that time God brought seven years of prosperity to Egypt, then seven years of famine for no reason other than to entertain himself?

Genesis

 41;:29 Behold, there come seven years of great plenty

  throughout;all the land of Egypt

 41;:30 And there shall arise after them seven years of famine;

  and;all the plenty shall be forgotten in the land of Egypt; and

  the;famine shall consume the land

 41;:31 And the plenty shall not be known in the land by reason

  of;that famine following; for it shall be very grievous.

-

No? How about that time that god had Jericho burnt down and kept all the material goods?

Joshua 6

 6;:24 And they burnt the city with fire, and all that was therein: only the silver, and the gold, and the vessels of brass and of iron, they put into the treasury of the house of the LORD.

-

Not enough? Do I even have to mention the wonderful gift of original sin, or the promise of eternal hell if you so much as ever once lack reverence for the holy spirit?

Side: Yes
Amarel(5564) Disputed
2 points

If a perfect creator has perfect creations, there will be no fault found in those creations except by design. If a perfect creator is also omniscient, and produces beings with fault, his knowledge of outcomes beforehand coupled with his decision to proceed with said creation, puts desire behind his action to create.

Put more simply, God wanted all that bad stuff that you blamed on the devil and his friends.

Side: Yes
Noxter(92) Disputed
1 point

hat just mean that god is far for perfect if fails to created a slave being (Lucifer) the way that he obeys him.... I assume that he could kill or fix Lucifer at any time but he does not, therefore he likes what he does... :D

Side: Yes
TherRnoBirds(7) Disputed
1 point

God did not create Lucifer for the sole purpose to be head of worship in Heaven. Everything's purpose is to glorify God. God knew that Lucifer would rebel, bring sin into the world, and wreak havoc among the earth. But God had a plan that would use all of these things to glorify himself even more and bring fulfillment to his people.

Side: Yes
14giraffes(87) Disputed
1 point

This is true, but I don't think it supports the doctrine of hell.

Side: No
1 point

Yup. Hur's da vuribles 2 da kakwashin.

God knows everything.

He knows what's gonna happen.

He created us.

Dur is heaven.

Dur is hell.

Beforehand He knows what da results of each decision he makes.

He chose to make those creation decision.

Yes this am infallible logick.

Side: Yes
14giraffes(87) Disputed
1 point

That's all fine and dandy until you get to the divine Apocatastasis (restitution of all things)

1 Corinthians 15:22 "As all die in Adam, so all will be made alive in Christ"

Lamentations 3:31-33 "For no one is cast off by the Lord forever. Though he brings grief, he will show compassion, so great is his unfailing love"

1 Timothy 4:10 "We have put our hope in the living God, who is the Savior of all people, and especially of those who believe."

Colossians 1:17-20 "He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together. And He is the head of the body, the church; He is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in everything He might have the supremacy. For God was pleased to have all His fullness dwell in Him, and through Him to reconcile to Himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through His blood, shed on the cross."

Side: No
ProLogos(2794) Disputed
1 point

What's your point?

Please tell me in your own words. I don't understand all of that metaphor.

Side: Yes
1 point

The "Christian God" absolutely chooses. God is BY DEFINITION omniscient. By the very definition of omniscience, this God knows all that can be known. Therefore, God already knows who will go to heaven and who will go to heaven before they are even conceived. If you deny the fact that this God knows who will go to heaven and hell before they die, then you deny his omniscience as a whole. If this is the case, then he is not a God. While this is not an active choice, this God allows certain people to make decisions that go against his doctrine, and therefore allows them to go to hell.

Side: Yes
14giraffes(87) Disputed
1 point

You are putting a limitation on God by saying that He can't decide not to know something. God can play dice also. Choosing and knowing are also very different things.

Side: No

If God is omniscient and created humanity with the knowledge of each of their lives, then it follows that he also knew who will and will not accept Jesus before creation happened in the first place. Since human beings have been given the capacity to suffer eternally (hell) by the will of God himself, then it also follows that God knew when he added hell as a reality that it would invariably lead to the eternal death of his own creations. God doesn't choose who will and won't go to hell, but he allows their manifestation with the knowledge of their non capacity to interpret and understand the reality of his word, which leads to eternal death in hell.

Side: Yes
ChronicLogic(14) Clarified
1 point

As if he knowingly has created a foot race to salvation and allows the manifestation of racers with no feet.

Side: Yes
1 point

Yes. Romans tells us that God predestined us. God had determined every aspect of us when He was creating the mountains and oceans, including our salvation. We make choices, but God, who is sovereign over everything, is in control of who goes to heaven and who goes to hell.

Side: Yes
2 points

I assume you are quoting the Bible in this argument. Let me tell you, almost all Christians believe that non Christians will have a chance to meet Jesus when they die. It will be then when they either accept or reject Jesus. At that point they themselves will choose Heaven or Hell. But atheists won't have that choice since they reject God to begin with. If you believe and love God and live a good, moral life, you will go to Heaven and meet Jesus there.

Side: No
Deb8M8(4) Disputed
2 points

Most atheists were Christians. But as they started researching, they also started to open their eyes. Like me, I was the biggest fundamental, homophobic asshole ever. I'm so glad I've changed.

Side: No
zico20(345) Disputed
1 point

Exactly what the hell did they research. It certainly wasn't science. If you are talking about the Bible, God didn't write the Bible, man did. Man makes mistakes, and man made a bunch of them when writing the Bible. Or maybe they just misunderstood what God told them, or could not comprehend God when they wrote it.

So you are saying that once you became an atheist you were then no longer against gays? If that's the case that is an ignorant comment to make against people who believe in God.

Side: Yes
2 points

I assume you are quoting the Bible in this argument.

I was hoping others that know the Bible better than I would do that!!

It will be then when they either accept or reject Jesus.

Can you explain a bit more about how you see that working? Jesus will appear and say "accept me or you go to Hell"? Then how do you accept Him? There is no question that he exists - he is right in front of you.

I suggest that with your view that a belief in God is the only important factor in getting into Heaven. In your scenario it seems to me that Jesus plays a extremely minor role as some sort of scary threatening gatekeeper at the end.

Side: No
zico20(345) Clarified
1 point

Yes, Jesus will appear to them and pronounce that He is the son of God. At that point you either accept Him or reject Him. I think it is that simple. You can't be in Heaven and reject Jesus who is right there also.

As far as there is no question that He exists He is right in front of you, many atheists either see God or feel God and still deny His existence. I know a co worker who is an atheist. He was dating a very religious woman and at dinner with her family he saw an enormous bright light on the wall and felt a tremendous energy surge through his body. They both left at the same time. Guess what, he is still an atheist. God shows Himself to you in different ways.

To get to Heaven you must believe in God and love God. Plus you still must live a good, moral life. Cold blooded murderers don't have a shot even if they repent on their death bed.

Side: Yes
Noxter(92) Disputed
1 point

Then there is no point of being Christian if you can "sort it out" after you die :D .

Side: Yes
14giraffes(87) Disputed
1 point

There are two types of religious people: 1) the type of person who practices religion inspired by fear 2) the type of person who practices religion inspired by love. If you are religious because you are inspired by love then it won't matter if you can "sort it out" afterwords. You won't be subject to those mental gymnastics.

Side: No
2 points

The world tries to tell everyone that if you are a good person you will not go to Hell. That is a lie and the Bible says there is not one sinless person, not one!

When you listen to Democrats who claim to be the compassionate party, ask yourself how compassionate it is to support even late term abortions for any reason, not just life of mother. So these very people who vote for Democrats and think they are good people, are keeping even late term abortions legal. God says he knows us in the womb! He says he knows who we will be!

Live in your little word of denial. Pretend that you are good people. God does not send anyone to Hell, people do that all on their own. You don't get to Heaven by doing good works. You get there by calling Christ your Lord. He will help you be a better person but works are not what get you to Heaven.

Side: No
Elvira(3446) Clarified
2 points

I guess you're not a Catholic, then. Are you saying that Buddhist monks are going to hell for rejecting Christ? (Even though a handful of them restored a listed mansion and saved the economy of a small lakeland town?)

Side: Yes
Atrag(5556) Disputed
2 points

DEMOCRATS BAD !!! ROARRRRRRRRRR!!!!!!!!!!!

Didn't really answer the question there lil buddy.

Live in your little word of denial. Pretend that you are good people. God does not send anyone to Hell, people do that all on their own... You get there by calling Christ your Lord.

Explain how someone that has never even heard of Jesus sends them self to hell by not calling Christ their Lord. I don't think you have applied your mind to the question at all.

Side: Yes
ChronicLogic(14) Disputed
2 points

Say a child steals from his mother because he feels deeply that she doesn't spend it wisely enough and only buys junk food and cigarettes. His choice to transgress his mother's will (that he not steal) May be justified to the child, but we would agree that the mother is MORE justified in teaching her son a greater lesson about people's autonomy and the limits of people's rights to other people's rightly earned property. While the child sees himself as the martyr of a higher cause he is mistaken. His punishment is a result of his self righteousness in the face of greater wisdom. This is the problem with most atheists (I'm not a theist), it is that you are all so proud of yourselves as intellectuals that you truly believe your evaluations of justice and moral value as TRUTH. Self righteousness is disgusting whether it's in the form of atheism or theism.

Side: No
Cuaroc(8827) Disputed
1 point

Yet another post where you bring up Democrats when the subject has nothing to do with government.

Side: Yes
2 points

Just how exactly would I know? God does not exist.

Now, if he did, I would assume so. Because the bible portrays him as a narcissistic, sexist, racist, and homophobic person.

Side: No
zico20(345) Disputed
2 points

Us Christians could write a new Bible and eliminate all the stuff you don't like. Would that make you feel better?

Now that you have solved the worlds greatest mystery, I assume you are going to apply for a Nobel prize and start writing books and getting your own TV show. After all, if you said it, it has to be true. Geez, I guess we can all sleep better tonight.

Side: Yes
Srom(12207) Disputed
2 points

Us Christians could write a new Bible and eliminate all the stuff you don't like. Would that make you feel better?

That would be a sin to write a new Bible because it even says we shouldn't take out stuff from the book or even add to it.

Side: No
Explorer(187) Disputed
1 point

narcissistic

Define

sexist

Define

racist

Nope

homophobic

As much as God is fornication"phobic".

Side: Yes
5 points

+1

Side: No
14giraffes(87) Disputed
1 point

If you take the bible quite literally, as most protestants do, He would appear to be all of those things, plus a genocidal maniac. Or you could take it like Emanuel Swedenborg, or St. Origen, where these are not literal renderings but have deep spiritual meaning. In the ancient world they didn't write books with the intention of presenting historical factoids the way we post-enlightenment modernizers do. They would weld in mythology and symbolic language into the text without those strict boundaries, like Homer for example.

Side: No

Depends on your interpretations of various texts. For some God has predestined people for salvation and destruction. For others the actions of humans and their relationship with Christ well potentially lead you to heaven or damnation. Of course the final judge is God, so his judgment will be the final verdict.

Side: No
daver(1771) Clarified
2 points

Your right. There seems to be a gaping hole in which the true intention of God has been obscured. Why in your opinion would God have left such an important consideration unclear. Or is it just me that is having trouble with interpretations that seem lacking. I ask this question forthrightly.

Side: Yes

Why in your opinion would God have left such an important consideration unclear.

God isn't required to give us any knowledge about his intentions. It's probably best to for us to not know. Their probably is only one true interpretation of the bible, but man sees many.

Or is it just me that is having trouble with interpretations that seem lacking.

I haven't seen you analyze the scriptures, so I can't answer this.

Side: No
1 point

Hell is not a literal place of torment, but is a metaphor for what you are experiencing in this life, the burning away of imperfections. Literalism has plagued Christianity ever since the Enlightenment. When the scientific revolution came, Christians started getting defensive and saying "but all of our stuff is literal!"

We need to get back to Origen.

1 Corinthians 15:22 "As all die in Adam, so all will be made alive in Christ"

Lamentations 3:31-33 "For no one is cast off by the Lord forever. Though he brings grief, he will show compassion, so great is his unfailing love"

1 Timothy 4:10 "We have put our hope in the living God, who is the Savior of all people, and especially of those who believe."

Colossians 1:17-20 "He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together. And He is the head of the body, the church; He is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in everything He might have the supremacy. For God was pleased to have all His fullness dwell in Him, and through Him to reconcile to Himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through His blood, shed on the cross."

Side: No
1 point

Hell doesn't exist.

It is only in the New Testament, there is no mention of it in the old Testament. Having a hell is really not cost efficient when you can more easily reuse the material, rather than start from scratch.

The old testament doesn't ever mention hell.

In fact, Satan means adversary and it is a title in the Bible, he isn't an enemy of God, rather, is an angel that works with God. All these stories you've heard were MADE UP.

God wanted humans to be tested for when you get taken out of the system where he can watch over all of you. God may be omnipresent here, but in the next world, he is not.

Side: No
5 points

+1

Side: Yes
5 points

+1

Side: Yes
5 points

+1

Side: Yes
1 point

Since God is Omniscient, knows ahead our choices and He also predestined prophesy, but also gives free will, the idea of election and vessels seems complicated.

God is Omniscient and Omnipresent

Its actually simple not complicated.

He knows my choices before I make them, but they are still choices made by free will, which we would make or have made regardless.

In other words if I make a choice of free will today, it's my choice of free will. Whether or not God knew 1st, or didn't know my choices 1st is irrelevant to my free will.

God pre-knowing my choices before my choices were made, doesn't change the free will that God gave to us. Although it may change how God uses that choice.

God alters consequence for

1 - His own will and purpose and prophesy. "He works all things for good" 2 - He alters consequences at times for us because of His kindness toward us. But even those interjections of God in time where also foreknown by God.

Romans 8

"28 And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose. 29 For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren; 30 and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified."

He chose the exact time to come, at the right time, according to His will, to bring forth His prohesies, working all things together so God did it.

He predestined Judas' betrayal. Not because God made Judas' choice for him, but because he knew already that Judas would be offered 30 pieces of silver and he would choose and agree to betray Jesus. So God chose him to be predestined the Son of perdition.

So then God predestined Judas and his choices to occur in order to fulfill prophesy, occuring in the day and hour required according to His prophesy. Same with Pharoah. And other events like the killing of the babies when both Moses and Jesus were born. Weeping in Israel for her sons were no more" (paraphrased)

Prophesy is God's response at the appropriate time and to every choice ever made and to every consequence that ever unfolded, past, present and future, and for His purpose to reveal the "anxiously awaited sons of God"

Romans 8

"anxious longing of the creation waits eagerly for the revealing of the sons of God. 20 For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it, in hope 21 that the creation itself also will be set free from its slavery to corruption into the freedom of the glory of the children of God. 22 For we know that the whole creation groans and suffers the pains of childbirth together until now. 23 And not only this, but also we ourselves, having the first fruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting eagerly for our adoption as sons, the redemption of our body. "

Romans 8

26 In the same way the Spirit also helps our weakness; for we do not know how to pray as we should, but the Spirit Himself intercedes for us with groanings too deep for words; 27 and He who searches the hearts knows what the mind of the Spirit is, because He intercedes for the saints [b]according to the will of God[/b]."

He already had complete foreknowledge of all choices and events ever to be made. Prophesy is His free will. He predestined prophesies at a designated time. And sometimes prophesies of God are simply just foreknowledge of events known from all the known choices and every action and reaction.

Prophesy is destiny.

Foreknown always! And predestined often! But in all thing according to His Will and purpose.

Our choices, and the consequences and the events that follow are simply used by God. We are jars of clay "should the created complained to the Creator, is He unjust?" (paraphrased)

God acts on His free will using our known choices and consequences. And He set in motion a purpose to have many like Jesus, the first born of many brethern"

God's acts on our behalf, God knowing His actions beforehand doesn't change God or His intervention, His purposes, His prophesies, nor their outcomes.

Whether happy or sad consequences, or objects of mercy or objects of wrath, or vessels of honor or for dishonor, He uses ALL for good, to fulfill His prophesies, and for His purposes throughout time.

His purposes could be as simple as feeding birds, confirming our faith, disciplining us to obedience, blessing us, and softening hearts or hardening hearts, to revealing to all of creation His children.

God knows all hearts and choices, preknown by an Omnicient God.

But knowing ahead of time doesn't change free will, He doesnt change our choices because free will still makes choices our own.

Side: No
1 point

Well, there's always Valhalla ..... or that place that supplies a couple of months worth of virgins....

Side: No
1 point

If God does choose people to go to hell I firmly believe it's NOT the people you think he is choosing. No one is as nasty as an ultrareligious nut telling calm normal people they all better be scared or else terrible things will happen to them while you sit on a cloud and smile watching.

Side: No
0 points

I believe God is Omniscient and Omnipresent

Its actually simple not complicated.

He knows my choices before I make them, but they are free will choices which I would make or have made regardless.

In other words if I make a choice right now, it's my choice of free will. Whether or not God knew 1st or didn't know my choices 1st is irrelevant to my free will.

God pre-knowing my choices before my choices were made, doesn't change the free will that God gave to us. His foreknowledge doesnt rcancel out the free will I used to make the choices.

I don't view His Omniscience of choices and of their out comes as "destiny." God did not cause or destined or purpose my choices. He only knew my choices.

As for the outcomes of our choices, God predestined some outcomes and altered some outcomes, but does not all or most outcomes. God alters consequence for 1 - His own will, and 2 - at times for us because of His kindness toward us. But even those interjections of God in time where also foreknown by God.

He also holds back some consequences like He holds back the sea. And that's God's Love and Mercy and His Patience.

If destiny is "predestined" then that would mean God made my choices, making my choices also predetermined as destiny. Then it wouldn't be free will.

God HAS predestined prophesies!

He predestined some events and consequences according to His own free will to accomplish His purposes as foretold in prophesies.

Prophesies are in many cased orchestrated and predestined by God. And Prophesy can also simply be a recorded acct of future events.

Because God is Omniscient, He looked through time and decided where His prophesies accomplished His determined outcomes, throughout all the unfolding of events, down to the smallest fraction of a second.

Any alterations of events through times of prophesy fulfillment were also fully known, all things were foreknown.

Like the Crucifixion.

He chose that time to come, it was the right time, so God did it.

He predestined Judas' betrayal. Not because God made Judas' choice for him, but because he knew.... Judas would be offered 30 pieces of silver and he would agree to betray.

So then God predestined that choice as prophesy, to occur in the day and hour according to His prophesy.

Most prophesy is God's response to every choice ever made and every consequence that ever unfolded, past, present and future.

And He already had complete foreknowledge of all choices and events ever to be made.

Prophesy is His free will. He predestined prophesies at a designated time. And sometimes prophesies of God are simply just foreknowledge of events known from all the known choices and every action and reaction.

Prophesy is destiny.

Foreknown always! And predestined often!

Our choices, and the consequences and the events that follow are used by God.

God acts on His free will using our known choices and consequences. God's acts on our behalf knowing His action beforehand doesn't change God or His interventio. Whether happy or sad consequences, He uses both, to fulfill His prophesies and for His purposes throughout time. His purposes could be as simple as feeding bird, confirming faith, disciplining us to obedience, or blessing us, and even in judgement. But knowing ahead of time doesn't change anything. He doesnt change our choices because free will makes choices our own.

Side: No
1 point

If God is omniscient God could evaluate each possible universe and all of the human decisions made in each one. - God then resolved to make this universe knowing all of the decisions that would be made in it meaning that God caused the decision to happen - not you.

Side: Yes
KNHav(1957) Disputed
1 point

Since God already knew all to come, then He knew the future as though it already happened in the future.

Since He already knew the outcome He also already knew that that He would not have, and He did not change His mind.

Its like saying I know what's going to happen tomorrow, so I'll skip tomorrow. How do you skip something you already knew happened.

Side: No
KNHav(1957) Disputed
1 point

God knowing ahead of time doesn't change anything.

Just like not knowing or knowing a movie doesn't change the movie. The movie already happened in its entirety, but the movie is still acting out every act and scene predestined and pre-known by the producer.

The only difference is it isn't entirely scripted because the actors are acting by ad lib choices creating the framework of every scene.

Side: No