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Does God hate fags?
1.'If a man has sexual relations with a man as one does with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They are to be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads... You must not live according to the customs of the nations I am going to drive out before you. Because they did all these things, I abhorred them.' (Leviticus 20:13-23)
2. [D]o you not know that wrongdoers will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor men who have sex with men[.] (I Corinthians 6:9)
3. FAQ page of that most enlightened, tolerant, and compassionate of religious organisations, the Westboro Baptist Church.
I personally believe homosexuality is a sin that is why I voted yes. However I believe in the right of personal choice. If one wishes to be homosexual then that is their prerogative and I do not believe that they shouldn be harassed and there right to privacy should be respected. The Westboro baptist church are ignorant pieces of trash that should all get punched in the face!
I don’t think that God even knows about homos. Right after Big Bang God flew on a neutrino or a boson into ever expanding universe to Gods-only-known location.
thanks, I feel that my morality is my morality and should not be enforced upon another individual. I would however hope that the homosexuals would have the same consideration and not thrusts their morality down my throat. I have tolerance for homosexuals but I feel that many of them want acceptance and no legislation will get that acceptance from me.
It has been brought to my attention that this profile still exist. I have not used it in seven years and I've changed a lot as a person sense than. I've long since left the catholic church and no longer hold the religious views I once did.
Homosexuality is not a CHOICE. I did not choose to like a straight girl who will never like me back, and other homosexuals don't choose to be that way. Not all of them hate it, I wouldn't change myself, but some of them would.
The Catholic church has identified homosexuality as not being a sin because you are born gay. They have identified homosexual acts as a sin. All the ignorant people out there that say god hates fags just make me so mad god hates no one. Stop spreading a bad image on Christianity and get educated.
I'm a fag and proud, or at least bi. GO FAGGOTS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
me too! i just got engaged to my beautiful girlfriend of almost 2 years. i've never loved anyone as much as i love her and we live life to the fullest. Ive never read the bible, i dont know what i believe in, but what i do know if there is heaven and hell i would gladly burn in "hell" in the after life if that means i get to be with her now.
that's what she said. somehow i'm supposed to stretch that into 50 characters soooo ttttthhhhaaaaatttttt'sssss wwwwhhhhaaaatttttttt ssssshhhhhhheeeeeee sssssaaaaaaiiiiiiddddddddddddd.
Unfortunately, some 2 billion people in the world believe - or should believe - that you will go to hell because of that.
Actually, I'm not sure what the bible says about lesbians. It keeps saying that it's immoral for men to have sex with other men, but I haven't yet seen a verse specifically condemning women who have sex with other women.
People make a big fuss over whether they're straight or gay or bi, but personally I don't see why there is a need to do that. Does it really make a difference whether you like guys more or like girls more?
I've never asked myself what my sexual orientation is, and I don't see the need to. I'll like who I like :P
That's a good point. I guess for some people it's like a disease; it's less scary if you can put a name to it. I think it's sort of a way to get some closure.
I never used to ask myself my orientation...until my 8th grade year. (2 years ago) I moved that year and I met a girl and started to like her. Thats when i decided to put a name on it. I'm bi.
Or, to put the question in a more general way: "If you profess to believe the Bible as the eternal and infallible truth, should you accept the teachings of the Bible in their entirety?"
While I find the WBC's actions repulsive, I think they raise a very good point about Christianity that most Christians don't like to talk about. God isn't the perfectly friendly loving father that he is usually portrayed as. The Bible endorses slavery, the subjugation of women, the death penalty for all sorts of crimes from homosexuality to swearing at your parents, genocide, and plenty of other actions the modern person would find rather dubious.
Naturally, most modern Christians balk at this, so they say, "No, God isn't telling you to kill your children or execute adulterers and homosexuals. He just means this and that and all those other nice, harmless things." The problem is that believing in the Bible doesn't mean "pick the things you like, downplay or ignore the rest". It means believing the Bible in its entirety.
So when God says that he abhorred homosexuals, isn't that what a Bible-believing Christian must accept?
God isn't the perfectly friendly loving father that he is usually portrayed as.
One must understand that love and perfection don't necessarily equivocate a fuzy cudly being. As to perfection however, now that is an entirely different case... firstly one must understand that "no one is righteous, not even one" (Romans 3:10)... and if your one of those people who needs to see it for yourself, turn on the tele... get to know the people around you and you will find this out for yourself... no one is utterly without fault... its a fact. However God is (Is 6:3,Ps 16:2), he is absolutely perfect.
The Bible endorses slavery, the subjugation of women, the death penalty for all sorts of crimes from homosexuality to swearing at your parents, genocide, and plenty of other actions the modern person would find rather dubious.
Show me where in the church such things have been endorsed and done... easy right? now show me where in the old testament those things are endorsed... then show me where in the new testament those things are endorsed... then we have a functional basis for debate... but until then this argument is your own bogus claim(proov me wrong with ev. btw if you actually do do the work to back up your points whith a shred of evidence you can just put the tags for your ev and links/verses down, you don't need to write out the whole thing.
Naturally, most modern Christians balk at this, so they say, "No, God isn't telling you to kill your children or execute adulterers and homosexuals. He just means this and that and all those other nice, harmless things."
once again produce the ev and then we have a debate... if your going to attack a book like the bible you at least need to show that you have a little bit of an idea of what your actually talking about... Quantify, please!
So when God says that he abhorred homosexuals, isn't that what a Bible-believing Christian must accept?
So here is what the fact of the matter is:
(20:13 Romans 1:27, 32 B).
We see that Those commuting Homosexuality are said to be unfit to inherit the kingdom of God
(1 Corinthians 6:9 1 Timothy 1:10)
Homosexuality is an abomination to God.
(Leviticus 18:22, 24)
The sin is self-defiling
(Romans 1:27, 31; 2 Timothy 3:3)
It is unnatural
(1 Timothy 1:10)
Encouraging this way of life is not right
(1 Corinthians 6:9, 11)
Christians should not do this
(Romans 1:24, 26-32 Ephesians 4:17-19)
Because of this is sin and people continue in it God gives them up
(1 Corinthians 6:11, 9-10)
There is a way out, one can be free of the sin of Homosexuality.
So that is what the bible says... and btw those going to hell, I'm afraid are not limited to Homosexuals, so In conclusion, If God hated Homosexuals he would have not provided a way out of their sin, despite their rejection of him and his commands. So no! God doesn't hate "fags" he loves them so much that he sent his son to die specifically for them that they might not die (eternally) but be free of sin and have eternal life. (John 3:16)
Slavery: 'Your male and female slaves are to come from the nations around you; from them you may buy slaves.' (Leviticus 25:44)
Subjugation of women: 'I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man.' (I Corinthians 11:3)
Death penalty for homosexuality: 'If a man has sexual relations with a man as one does with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They are to be put to death.' (Leviticus 20:13)
Death penalty for swearing at your parents: 'Anyone who curses their father or mother is to be put to death.' (Leviticus 20:9)
[I can raise many more "crimes" for which the death penalty is mandated, but that would take me all day.]
Genocide: the Flood, the murder of the firstborns of Egypt, the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah
Killing your children: quote given in "death penalty for swearing at your parents"
Executing adulterers: 'If a man commits adultery with another man’s wife—with the wife of his neighbor—both the adulterer and the adulteress are to be put to death.' (Leviticus 20:10)
Executing homosexuals: quote given above.
As I said, I can give many more examples if I had to, but I'll just stop here for now.
If you are a Bible-believing Christian, you should agree with all of those statements above. If you dispute them, doesn't that mean you're implying that God is not perfect, because some of his moral judgements are wrong?
Note though that I don't mean "God says gay people will never go to heaven". I'm simply saying that God hates gay people, because that is precisely what God said, according to the Bible. I imagine he can hate someone and still let them into heaven if they changed their ways.
Ok, firstly, thank you! for supporting your points. Really though I haft to ask, did you just google what you were saying and find these verses or what? cause they are miles out of context.
'Your male and female slaves are to come from the nations around you; from them you may buy slaves.' (Leviticus 25:44)
Ok... so this is the old testament... completely different from what we have in the way of laws that God wants fallowed today (concerning this particular verse). what we have here is a classic example of the law of that day... the people of God were the good guys and everybody else was bad... you'll haft to forgive the literary crudity of the last statement but that is the easiest way to understand it. With the death of Christ however, everyone has equal opportunity to to be a child of God. so this no longer applies... in the new testament you see some "hows" when it comes to slaves but no endorsement of slavery.
'I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man.' (I Corinthians 11:3)
Firstly you should have put it like: ...'I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man... becuase this passage says a lot more then just that.
This passage is a letter from Paul (one of the apostles)... it was written to the church in the city of Corenth, his point is that man was created by God from nothing in Gods image, but woman was created from man (the rib of man).
and in this same passage paul says " ...and because of the angels, aught to have a sign of authority on here head"
and "...in the lord, however, woman is not independent of man, nor is man independent of woman..."
the passage is setting the roles of Christian men and woman... specifically as it partaines to prayer... not setting man as the subjugator of woman.
'If a man has sexual relations with a man as one does with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They are to be put to death.' (Leviticus 20:13)
Firstly, back then there was a huge problem with homosexuality amongst the Jews who were Gods people. Now this is speaking about the jews in the old testament, saying that this is the law concerning homosexuality... so it doesn't pertain to the gentiles or non Jews... and nowadays after Christs death all are under a new law... a law of grace.
'Anyone who curses their father or mother is to be put to death.' (Leviticus 20:9) again... Leviticus... old testament... law to the jews... there is a new law and this is no longer the the law under which man is subject.
Genocide: the Flood, the murder of the firstborns of Egypt, the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah
Ok so... one big difference we see here is that God allowed the and caused the flood and the angel of death in Egypt, and the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah, But! when it comes to humans he says a plethora of things saying " thow shalt not murder"... in the new and old testament.
Killing your children: quote given in "death penalty for swearing at your parents"
I assume your talking about in exiguous where the bible says "'If anyone curses his father or mother, he must be put to death. He has cursed his father or his mother, and his blood will be on his own head."
if so, then once again we have an argument from old testament... a time when the law of grace was not...
'If a man commits adultery with another man’s wife—with the wife of his neighbor—both the adulterer and the adulteress are to be put to death.' (Leviticus 20:10)
Same argument I made before.... old testament...
The reason I make the argument's I have is not because I don't except those sections of the Bible, but because I wholeheartedly except the the whole bible! and because of this I know that There is the law of grace that has been given by God.
I definitely dug up these verses online. I don't exactly have the Bible memorised word for word :) I didn't make up a bunch of accusations first then found verses for them after, though; it was the other way round. I've had a partially Christian upbringing, and have long been aware of many Biblical tales.
Slavery
Slavery is not merely the law of the day, subject to change as human moral standards evolve. It is the word of God, spoken to Moses, recorded in the Holy Bible, to be read by Christians until the end of time. God doesn't say that we should place the moral standards of the current age above his word - we are not to follow the pattern of the world, but the will of God:
Do not conform to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to test and approve what God’s will is—his good, pleasing and perfect will. (Romans 12:2)
It is clear that God doesn't merely repeat what human laws say. He provides a law that supersedes all human laws. So why didn't he tell his followers to free their slaves and begin hiring workers for fair wages? The only reasonable answer is that he doesn't have a problem with slavery.
Subjugation of Women
I do realise now that it would have been better to provide the full sentence of I Corinthians 11:3, so here goes:
But I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.
You said that this verse explains that man was created by God in God's image, but that explanation skips over the mention of Christ. The concepts "God" and "Jesus Christ" aren't the same. For example, no one says "Jesus created the world in 6 days". Rather, God created the world, and Jesus Christ is the lord and saviour.
And whereas you appear to interpret "the head of x is y" in that verse to mean "x is created of y", I interpreted it as "the lord of x is y".
A version in which Christ=God and "head" means "creator" (roughly) would come out to: "But I want you to realise that every man is created of God, and every woman is created of man, and God is created of God." Wait, God created God? :S
My version comes out to: "But I want you to realise that the lord of every man is Christ, and the lord of the woman is man, and the lord of Christ is God." Doesn't that make a lot more sense?
Furthermore, the word "head" (which literally means "head" as in head, shoulders, knees and toes in the Greek - κεφαλή), "in the Scriptures, is designed often to denote 'master, ruler, chief'" (Barnes' Notes on the Bible, http://barnes.biblecommenter.com/1_corinthians/11.htm ). Again that supports the notion that Paul explicitly told Christians that women are to be under the subjugation of men.
I Corinthians 11:10 (sign of authority) is "one of the very few passages in the Bible whose meaning as yet is wholly inexplicable" ( http://bible.cc/1_corinthians/11-10.htm ). In the light of the fact that even experts on Bible commentary are completely stumped, I think I'll skip over it rather than attempt to guess at what it means.
The part about men and women not being independent of each other makes sense - you need both in order to procreate, as even the most sexist of people understand. But that's different from saying they are equal in status. Read in the light of the passage above, we see that woman is mandated to submit to her husband. In fact, even the stories of Genesis - of the creation and temptation of Eve - themselves imply a fundamental inferiority between the two sexes. Adam gets the honour of being created in the image of God himself, whereas Eve is drawn from her husband's body.
Further Notes
Now, to the argument that these Old Testament laws no longer apply because Jesus died for humanity. This also functions as a reply to the points of genocide / homosexuality / swearing at parents / adultery:
Firstly, Jesus was very specific in saying that he is not advocating that humanity depart from Old Testament law and follow a new law. He said at the beginning of the Sermon on the Mount:
Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. (Matthew 5:17-18)
Jesus said also:
The Law and the Prophets were proclaimed until John. Since that time, the good news of the kingdom of God is being preached, and everyone is forcing their way into it. It is easier for heaven and earth to disappear than for the least stroke of a pen to drop out of the Law. (Luke 16:16-17)
Yes, Jesus (and John the Baptist) brought forth new information, but they are by no means abolishing the laws of the Old Testament.
Secondly, even if we are to assume that God's law has changed, that doesn't change the fact that in the time before Christ, the law was terribly harsh. There was a time when God approved of slavery, mandated the death penalty for all sorts of crimes, and freely committed genocide. Note that he didn't merely condone genocide; he directly committed it himself. And whereas Hitler only killed a small percentage of the world's population, there was one time (the Flood) when God wiped out the whole world except the inhabitants of a single Ark. So are we to believe that God used to be cruel and immoral - and hence imperfect - and was perfected only after the sacrifice of Jesus? That he hated adulterers, homosexuals, and all sorts of other "sexual deviants" until Jesus came along? That is contrary to Biblical teachings on the eternal perfection and love of God.
Thirdly, if one is to say that the moral teachings of the Old Testament are no longer relevant, because they are based on ancient laws and not on more modern, "correct" concepts of morality, why is the Old Testament still part of the Bible? Why is it still regarded the immutable word of God? Why hasn't it been relegated to a dusty corner, as nothing more than an amusing insight into the iniquities of the ancient world? Are Christians supposed to study the OT just to see how cruel God used to be before the coming of Jesus?
I submit that the God of pre-Christianity and early Christianity was every bit as cruel as the OT says he was. He is not a deity of eternal perfection, but one whose morality was strictly bound to the time when he was first worshipped - a time when people accepted slavery, female inferiority, etc. Jesus was better in his advocacy of love and forgiveness, but he too held many of the moral views of his age, which we now find immoral. The attempts of modern Christians to rewrite their religion and make it sound morally acceptable to 21st century folks either makes Christianity an internally inconsistent religion, or changes it so much that they can barely be called Christians.
But how is it unnatural? The people were born that way! If you are religious, didn't god create people? Then that would mean he also created homosexuals, wouldn't it?
If a man lies with a male as he lies with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination. They shall surely be put to death. Their blood shall be upon them. (NKJ, Leviticus 20:13)
i hope he hates the filthy diseased infested lesbian pig women too, because i sure do. they are certainly the reason why us good straight guys can't meet a decent straight woman anymore. these pigs are everywhere now, just like the filthy whores that are straight, but need a different guy to go to bed each and everyday of the week. either way, us good innocent guys lose. GOD please get rid of the garbage already.
in regards to so very true's commit, he is definitely right on the money about the LESBIANS. there seems to be so many of these diseased infested pig women now than ever before, and they are certainly making it very hard for us STRAIGHT GOOD SERIOUS MEN that are looking to find love again. i was married at one time, and i was a very caring and loving husband that was very much committed to her. but she cheated on me with another woman, and of course this made me very bitter. i still can't believe that this happened to me, and i always wanted to have a family too. now that i go out again, i seem to meet very nasty low life loser women that have an attitude problem. even trying to start a normal conversation with these women, has become very difficult for me today. they will tell me to leave them alone, and even threaten to call the police on me. that shows you how many low life loser women that are out there today, and gee wiz i thought that i was hurt enough as it is. when i see so many very lucky straight men and women that have met and have a family, this very much upsets me. what makes these people so very special?, and not me? i certainly did not do anything wrong, except for being a very good husband that i was. the problem today we have too many of these GARBAGE women that are out there now, and even the straight ones need to date a different man for each day of the week. GOD FORBID, if a woman that is straight could only stay with only one man today. but that would be such a miracle that even GOD could not handle. very hard to find a real good honest woman today, especially trying to meet one that is NORMAL.
Everybody hates fags. Including God. The only people who don't hate fags are other fags and women.
Actually I don't think God HATES fags. Nobody HATES them. God just wishes he never took some epic magic mushrooms one day and accidently created the fucked up little sodomites known as homosexuals.
That's not logic. You just sound like a toddler throwing a fit. There is nothing wrong with liking someone of the same sex. I, personally, am bi, but I like a straight girl, so there's no chance she'll ever like me, but I haven't been feeling very eternally damned lately.....
baby you answered 'yes' to this, you forgot to tag it no. i still love you, though, and i can't wait to make you my wife. :) in some state, i haven't decided which yet.
This whole "god hates fags" crap is stupid. People who don't even believe in Christianity have supported the motion just because of their stereotype against homosexuality.
Yes, God absolutely and without question, not only hates fags, He abhors them. As many others here and elsewhere have already proven, this is stated in the Bible, multiple times and in no uncertain terms. This is not debatable or open to personal interpretation. It is in the Bible. God hates fags.
It is equally well documented, however, in other like works of fiction, that vampires hate sunlight, Superman hates Kryptonite, and leprechauns hate having their gold stolen. To what degree such claims are allowed to affect one's day to day life is left entirely to the discretion of the individual, and has no provable bearing on reality beyond that.
This so called "perfect" and "all knowing" being also gave HUMANS domain over the beasts of the earth, the birds of the air, and the fish of the sea. George Bush wouldn't do something so utterly stupid! That's part of the reason I believe the Bible was made up, at least in part, by humans; nature's own egomaniacs. No, bottomline, people hate each other. But greater society frowns upon hating others for nothing, so people come up with the most out-there reasons. Yes, humans enjoy making up stupid reasons for hatred. There's nothing against homosexuality in MY religion, but my dad is Christian. He's been to ministers, they've explained to him that it refers to whoring around, not genuine love between people of the same gender. Please don't hit me with this "Incapable of love" rubbish. They're just as capable of love as heterosexuals.
I think you're misunderstanding my stance somewhat. I'm not against homosexuality, and I'm not making any statements about the fallibility of the Bible. I'm not even a Christian. I'm asking: "Does the Bible say that God hates homosexual people?"
A lot of Christians argue that God hates the sin but not the sinner, and yet from what I can see, the Bible clearly says that he is capable of hating people. Some Christians also argue that the Bible doesn't condemn homosexuality, and again the evidence does not match this argument.
I completely agree with you. I mean, who understands women better than women? Who understands men better than men? Just because you have romantic feelings for the same gender doesn't mean you will burn in Hell.
yes the bible says this but in Sunday school children are to sing the song "Jesus loves me" so if a queer goes to church and prays do you think God is going to come down and tell him to get out of the church NO!!!! in my opinion God loves everyone not just straight people he loves lesbians,gays,bisexual and so on and so forth.
That's your opinion, and while personally I think it's a good opinion (I am against any form of discrimination based on sexual orientation), I don't think that's actually compatible with Christian beliefs.
When the Bible tells us that God said he hates homosexuals, you'd be going against the Biblical teachings if you said that he loves them. If you ignore what the Bible says and substitute your own version of morality, are you still really a Christian?
When the Bible tells us that God said he hates homosexuals, you'd be going against the Biblical teachings if you said that he loves them.
The bible says that people who choose a life of sin will go to hell, but it does not say that God will hate them for sinning. Christians believe that God hates homosexuality, sexual immorality, and sin in general, but they do NOT believe that God ever hates the sinners themselves. Paul (who wrote much of the new testament) firmly stated, primarily in Romans, that people all sin and cannot enter heaven without the grace of Jesus. So essentially, the Christian theology works like this: If you believe in Jesus, repent of your sins, and make an effort to follow his teaching (thereby choosing him as your savior) you will go to heaven. So By this theology, Homosexuals who repent of their immorality and believe in Jesus will go to heaven too. God obviously wouldn't allow people he hated into heaven, so by this we can conclude that God does not hate homosexuals.
As I mentioned in the debate topic, the Bible quotes God as saying: 'If a man has sexual relations with a man as one does with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable... I abhorred them.' Leviticus 20:13-23
(The word "them" in "I abhorred them" refers to people who have homosexual sex, not to the act of homosexual sex. I referenced this with various resources on the original Hebrew.)
How would you reconcile God saying "I abhor homosexual men" with your belief that God hates no one?
listen, its a very topical issue within the church and while certain verses say that homosexuality is wrong, i think youll find there are far more verses which say od loves everyone.
in my own personal view, having read the bible, alot of what it says suggests to me that we should all follow our own moral guidance and shouldnt judge someone else for following theirs. so if someone thinks homosexuality is right then in my view there is nothing wrong with it
But if you follow your own moral guidance, you are no longer adhering to God's word. God didn't say, "Follow your own conscience and ignore what I say." He said:
"It is the LORD your God you must follow, and him you must revere. Keep his commands and obey him; serve him and hold fast to him." (Deuteronomy 13:4)
Maybe there are verses that could be taken to mean that God loves everyone, but the big problem is that the "God loves everyone" doctrine is completely contrary to what God said about abhorring homosexuals. He loves everyone but he abhors some people? That's not logically possible. I see the following as the only possible solutions:
(1) Say that God eventually decided love was better than hate, and changed his mind. (This would imply that the Old Testament God was imperfect, but that is impossible because God is supposed to be perfect.)
(2) Admit that the Bible contradicts itself. (This means the Bible cannot be taken as the eternal, infallible truth. This completely undermines God's and Jesus's teachings, and undermines Christianity itself.)
(3) Say that what God really means is that he loves everyone except the people he abhor. OR that he loves those who follow him, and the rest he may well abhor. Or even that "love" is only a figure of speech with little meaning; you have to earn his real love through worship.
Seems like (3) is the only answer... hence, God hates fags?
... this god must be a closet fag. It's the only explanation for this undo hatred.
I'm not sure what your stance is. Are you insane and think there actually is some invisible douche bag dolling punishment according to no moral standard or right and wrong, but only his persoanl whims?
Or are you clever pointing out how completely silly the Bible is from the religious' own standpoint?
I'm an agnostic. What the Bible says or doesn't say has no bearing on my moral values.
I'm pointing out the discrepancies in Christian texts and in most Christians' views. I see Christianity as an outdated religion - its teachings were relevant some 2000 years ago, not now. I applaud liberal Christians' attempts to reconcile their religious beliefs with modern standards of morality, but I think ultimately it's not going to succeed. You can't reconcile a God who commits genocide with 21st century views.
And yes, as a side note, I do find it a little amusing how concerned the Bible is about people's private sexual behaviour. (See Leviticus 20 for examples.) Is God a little pervy or what?
By reading your logic it may seem like 3 is the only answer, but it seems a tad bit close-minded.
"(1) Say that God eventually decided love was better than hate, and changed his mind. (This would imply that the Old Testament God was imperfect, but that is impossible because God is supposed to be perfect.)"
So God can just decide, and change his mind? Is he human or is he God? In this logic, maybe he changed his mind and started to like homosexuals because they're nice.
The impossibility that God is supposed to be perfect. The Key word meaning supposed to be. What you need to realize is the difference between faith and actuality. You personally, and many others I assume BELIEVE that God is perfect and that the Bible is the word of the Lord and the end all be all. But not everyone believes or puts their faith that the bible is to be taken so literally, and there are many others that do not believe in the Bible, or in God for that matter. If it is stated in the Bible that God abhors gays, and it also states that he loves everyone, then obviously that is a contradiction which you pointed out was logically impossible. One possible derivation is that the Bible is wrong, and can't be taken as truth. This also lines up with (2) where the Bible contradicts itself and can't be taken as eternal infallible truth. That admittance could be resisted from those who believe every word in the Bible as its literal meaning. So you come to the conclusion that you assume what God really means and you come up with the answer that God hates fags, when the other just as equally compelling and more likely solutions are that
(1)God loves everyone and that includes homosexuals, transgenders, straights, etc.,
(2) that the Bible is not a literal interpretation of God's wishes because it's more a tale of a cultural relevance that is reaching a point of interference with the actual evolution of cultural and psychological beliefs, norms and acceptances,
(3) lastly (although there are many other possibilities), there is no God, or at least there is a different form that does not take on the personified "God" we envision as a man who sits at the gates of heaven judging those he created.
Also if "love" is a figure of speech with little meaning, how are you able to take the rest of the Bible as the literal definition of truth? In that logic, maybe "abhor" shouldn't be taken literally.
To be honest, and this is my personal opinion. The first two solutions that you pointed out seem much more possible and logical than the third.
Question to ponder:
1. If God created everything, then why would he create Gay people. (since being Gay is a quality that is infused in birth- meaning that it is not of choice that people are Gay)
Before I begin, I'll clarify my stance. I don't take the Bible to be the literal word of God. In fact I'm not Christian at all. But I believe that Christians' professed beliefs are internally inconsistent - especially liberal Christians who are struggling so hard to reconcile Biblical teachings with 21st century views on equality and morality - and my purpose in this debate is to question these inconsistencies.
Bible as infallible
I'm aware there are many Christians who only accepts parts of the Bible, but I see that as an inconsistency with Christian belief. Jesus said:
All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. (Matthew 28:18-20)
Obey everything, he said, not just what you feel like obeying.
Of course, all this depends on whether or not you believe that the Bible is the word of God, an instruction to humanity on belief and salvation. If you believe it is, then it inductively follows that the Bible is infallible, since God is perfection. The Bible itself supports this view:
As for God, his way is perfect: The LORD’s word is flawless (2 Samuel 22:31)
But you need not believe it. Sure, the Bible itself tells us it is the perfect word of God, but a forgery would tell us the same thing. And if you don't believe the Bible is God's word, the logic starts to get rather circular. You will believe the Bible is infallible only if you believe the Biblical verses saying the Bible is infallible, and you don't need to believe those verses unless you believe the Bible is infallible.
But say you don't believe those verses, and you don't believe the Bible is infallible, and yet you consider yourself to be a Christian. If you don't see the Bible as the ultimate source of authority, but you do see God (which you believe to be possibly misrepresented in the Bible) as the ultimate source of authority, where do you turn to when you need religious education? You'll basically need to construct your own religion, not taking in accepted teachings on faith but constructing your own Gospel, constructing your own church, constructing your own Jesus, and constructing your own God. While that is theoretically possible, that is very, very far from the practices of any Christian I've seen yet. From fundamentalist pamphlets to my hip young Christian friends, they always quote the Bible when they need an ultimate authority in a religious matter.
Implications of the Bible being infallible
You make a very good point when you say that if "love" could be just a figure of speech, so too could "abhor". I haven't actually thought much about how it could be merely a figure of speech, I just threw it in, which was silly of me :/ I'll withdraw that part of the argument.
The other two disjuncts in that passage (that God means he loves everyone but the people he abhor, or that he loves those who follow him) still stand though. I'll make an example:
Say you ask a friend of yours, Alan, what he thinks about equality and human rights. He answers, "Of course everyone is equal! Doesn't matter if they're male or female, black or white, or whatever, everyone should have the same rights."
A few months later, Alan reads in the papers that the government is considering changing the legal definition of "marriage" from "union between a man and a woman" to "union between two people" so that same-sex couples can get legally married. He remarks, "Geez, what's the world coming to? Obviously, only real couples should be allowed to marry."
Say you find his two views to be inconsistent (I know some people don't think so, but let's assume they are inconsistent). You want to form an overall impression of his perspective. Which do you think would be a more natural statement?
(A) Alan didn't really mean it when he said that gay couples shouldn't be allowed to marry, because that's inconsistent with his earlier statement about equal rights. He actually means gay marriage is ok.
(B) Alan didn't really mean it when he said that he believes everyone should have equal rights. He might genuinely think he believes it, but actually he believes in an exception - that of gay marriage.
I think (B) is much more natural. When someone makes a very generalised statement, you might take them at their word. But if that person at another time makes a much more specific statement that appears to be inconsistent with their general statement, you usually take it to mean that the specific statement is an exception to the rule. It would feel more awkward to take the specific statement as something inconsequential that you can ignore. After all, if it were inconsequential, why would they have specifically mentioned it?
Although, in fact, even this point I don't find to be all that convincing. Like I said at the start, I believe Christianity is a religion that is internally inconsistent at its core. My third solution was my best attempt to explain away an inconsistency, because I find most Christians' explanation that God loves everyone is even worse than that, but in the end I think Christianity's inconsistencies can't be explained away. So yeah, I agree with you in saying that I find the first two solutions to be more likely. In fact, I'd say that "(0) The Bible is just a bunch of myths written by a gazillion different people at different times" is even more likely, but that's going onto another topic :D
I think your final question can be applied to all sorts of "bad" things. Why would a perfectly good God create Hell? Why create imperfect angels that fell and became Satan and demons? Why create mental disorders like psychopathy? Physical disorders like blindness? That, I also feel, is not adequately explained by Christianity. The usual explanation is that evil is a necessary component of free will, but while I agree with that on principle, it seems there are many forms of evil in the world which are completely unnecessary to free will.
ok were getting a bit off topic with that, its my own peronal beliefs and i believ that the bible is a base guideline of how we should act, and is open to interperetation, and as it says we should
"Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.' This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: 'Love your neighbor as yourself."
other than that i personally belive we all have our own moral compass and sure if you are lost, the bible is a great sorceof morallity, but i believe you do have to find certain moral views of your own. and if you believe differently then good for you, but i am not going to debate my own personal views on my religion.
now on to the topic at hand
in my view god loves everyone, regardless of their religion, sexuality or backround. i do however believe that the fact that he his perfect means that he cannot be around sin, now if you want to argue about whether or not it is a sin then thats an entirely different issue which im not going to go into, but i do believe it is not our place to judge this. its the big guy p stairs who judges them on it.
"Do not judge, or you too will be judged. For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you. "Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother's eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye? How can you say to your brother, 'Let me take the speck out of your eye,' when all the time there is a plank in your own eye? You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother's eye. (NIV, Matthew 7:1-5)
"may he who is free of sin cast the first stone"
now i dont know about you but i am not free of sin, and im pretty sure that there are some prety huge logs in my eye. if you cant say the same about yourself, then go ahead and persacute them but im pretty sure we are all born with our faults which we have to deal with but i think it is wrong for you to judge them on their sexuality
I'm not persecuting gay people - personally, I'm completely against homophobia. My point here is to discuss the Bible's views on homosexuality and, by extension, Christians' views on homosexuality.
Firstly, I see an incompatibility between Jesus' exhortation not to cast the first stone and other Biblical teachings. There are many places where God sets down laws and bids humans to enforce them (the law mandating the death penalty for homosexuals is one of them). It's also rather incompatible with practical societal needs. If nobody is allowed to judge other people, that would mean we'd need to abolish or at least radically overhaul the entire court system. No matter what crimes someone has committed, they can't be tried or sentenced, because surely the judge and jury are sinners themselves.
Secondly, let's take ourselves away from human behaviour and look at God's standpoint. There's a difference between God saying "I abhor homosexuals" and saying "humans need to abhor homosexuals". Does the Bible, in fact, say that God himself hates gay people? I'm convinced that it does. Whether or not Christians take it to mean that they themselves also need to hate gay people, a Christian who believes the Bible should believe that God hates them, shouldn't they? God also says there are a lot of other people he hates, which, well, doesn't really compute with the notion that God is love.
Of course not. Now i understand how you feel. Homosexuals do go through prejudice, mabye even feel like they are less respected. Now according too Gods word he does love everyone and has created everyone in his image. You have stated that you have read the bible. Well you can read it and still not understand it. Not judging you personally and saying you dont but what im saying is people often disregard the bibles teaching so it can fit with their own agenda. This is not how it should be absorbed. IF you are a born again christian, our duty as christians is to obey the word, love it for what it is because it is not of this world/ it is holy. We are all sinners, and homosexuality is considered a sin just as lying is detested, dishonor, anger, violence, swearing, and so on. Im sry to say this but if you beleive in the word of god than this shouldnt be hard to except, because it is more than obvious that we are all sinners.
i highly disagree, i believe the bible is open to interperatations and while i see the bible disaproves of homosexualsi belive tha it is far worse for you to prosicute them for it
God hates sin, not the sinner. He gave His Son for sinners, in order that we may be forgiven of our sins. Look at Paul, he was a murderer, he murdered many Christians yet he became one of the most inspiring preachers that ever lived. That shows that no matter what man does, he still has a chance to be saved and turn his life around. Like I said, God does not hate the sinner, He hates the sin.
I wrote this reply for someone else, but they never responded, so I'll repeat it here:
If, as you say, God doesn't hate people, then why did he say: "I abhorred them" (Leviticus 20:23), with "them" referring to people who committed homosexual acts?
I have been researching and reading for 2 hours and a half now, and have had a startling realization; God can hate. I thought He didn't, was positive He couldn't. It turns out I was wrong, and for that I apologize for making a false statement. I have to thank you for helping me realize and I have certainly learnt a lot the past couple hours. Thanks again.
I am not an ignorant Christian who is to proud to admit to being wrong; I love to learn, and learning from mistakes I make is the true path to success for me. The fact that God does hate has not lessened my faith in any way, but rather pushed me up to another level in understanding; I now know something I did not know before, so for that I have to thank you (:
P.S. You said that you had asked your question elsewhere but did not recieve a response, in which debate/thread did you ask this?
I have never understood why people claim that He does. It says in the Bible 'hate the sin, love the sinner' and so God may hate the act of homosexuality, but he doesn't hate the person. If God hated fags, because they were homosexual, then He would also have to hate every single person on this Earth because we have all fallen short of His Glory. I strongly believe that the Christian God is a loving God and many people show Him to be pure hate, when He clearly is not.
I must state that this is leviticus 20 13 and 23 not leviticus 20 13-23. If they believe that God hates fags then anyone who does not uphold the old covenant is someone with which he hates according to his logic. The problem is that god can see a sin as abhorrent or wrong, yet this does not change the fact that he loves us
It is like when your child breaks something, you may see what they did as wrong and punish them for it, but at the bottom of your heart you love them very dearly.
I used to think that homosexuality was an act of wrong not only against god but against society but i have come to realize that it is we as human beings influenced by our traditions and customs that despises homosexuality, not god. We claim that God hates homosexuality but who are we to judge? Furthermore, lets face it, we are no longer in a traditional society, we are living in a time of modernised civilization where liberalism is supposed to be prevalent in society. Similarly, many people who were religious would physically assault their wives and claim that it is acceptable to God because it is their wives and God gives them the authority to punish their wives. I am no much better than someone who is gay or bi because i am a human being in as much as they are and who am i to judge when my heart might be darker in deeds than the gay man standing next to me.
Furthermore, homosexuality is a part of life, not something you turn into as many people claim. Homsexuality is who those people are and want to be which i find no objection with because it is their lives and whether god hates the mor not is not for me to decide or to judge.
I agree. I didn't choose to be bisexual. It just happened. I am not however, what the world imagines me as. I am currently in a relationship with a guy and I'm in love. I could just as easily fall in love with a girl.
I personally am a Wiccan not a Christian, I believe that the God or Goddess made all of us how we are and loves us all the same. I'm bisexual and I know my Goddess loves me.
God doesn't have hatred for anyone! Although homosexuality does make him angry, because it goes against what he believes in, which is clearly stressed to us in the Holy Bible!!!
Oh, well I dare say that he doesn't particularly like them very much, but hate is such a strong word, and I don't think that god is one to hold grudges. Oh, and don't use the word 'fag' either. I don't think god likes that word either.
"I abhorred them" (Leviticus 20:23) were the words God used, speaking of men who had committed sodomy. The Hebrew word translated as "abhor" doesn't differ much in meaning from the English translation ( http://www.biblestudytools.com/lexicons/ hebrew/kjv/quwts-2.html ). So it's pretty appropriate to say that God hates fags.
In using the word "fag" I was copying the Westboro Baptist Church's slogan. Their reasoning was that the word was derived from "faggot", which in turn was derived from the bundles of twigs bound together, which were used to light pyres to burn homosexuals alive. There's actually not much evidence to suggest that this is really how the words faggot and fag came to denote homosexuals. But this is the popularly accepted story, and references the historical religious persecution of homosexuals which many people (including the WBC) are attempting to maintain in modern times, hence I kept this term.
If, as you say, God doesn't hate people, then why did he say: "I abhorred them" (Leviticus 20:23), with "them" referring to people who committed homosexual acts?
'If a man has sexual relations with a man as one does with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They are to be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads... You must not live according to the customs of the nations I am going to drive out before you. Because they did all these things, I abhorred them.' (Leviticus 20:13-23)
The Bible quotes God saying that he hates people who participate in homosexual activities.
I disagree I looked at my vocabulary book and it said to dislike ,to despise not to hate now lets look up hates meaning it means whole other diffrent thing then abhor or dislike. Hate:to wish evil upon something,to wish it were dead. So tell me did I change your mind or do you have a disputing argument to back it up.
abhor, v. fig. To regard with horror, extreme repugnance or disgust; to hate utterly, loathe, abominate.
hate, v. trans. To hold in very strong dislike; to detest; to bear malice to. The opposite of to love.
These two words are so similar in meaning as almost to be identical.
Now, since the English versions of the Bible are only translations, it would only be fair also to look at the original text. In the Hebrew, the relevant word is קוּץ.
www.biblestudytools.com defines this word thus:
to be grieved, loathe, abhor, feel a loathing or abhorrence or sickening dread
(Qal)
to feel a loathing at, abhor
to feel a sickening dread
(Hiphil)
to cause sickening dread
to cause loathing
And strongsnumbers.com defines it thus:
to feel a loathing, abhorrence, or sickening dread
So yeah, "God abhors people who engage in homosexual activities" means pretty much the same thing as "God hates fags".
Hate, dislike, and abhor are three diffrent words dislike and abhor are the same however hate is a whole other word hate means to wish evil upon something I got my vcabulary book and it said to detest ,too not like or dislike not to hate besides some of that vocabulary could be wrong I think they over did the meaning of abhor.
The Oxford English Dictionary is the biggest and the most authoritative English dictionary in the world. If it says that abhor means "to hate utterly", it's best to believe it unless you have very strong evidence that it means something else.
I see that your vocabulary book gives "detest" as the first definition for abhor. Take a look at the OED entry on "hate" from my last post, which says that it means "detest". I think your vocabulary book also listed "to not like" and "dislike" just so that people who don't know what "detest" means will still get the idea.
I'll also quote a few more dictionaries to strengthen my case:
Webster on abhor: to shrink from in disgust, hatred, etc.; detest
Collins on abhor: to detest utterly
Dictionary.com on abhor: to regard with extreme repugnance or aversion; detest utterly; loathe; abominate.
The general idea you get from this is that "abhor" is a much stronger word than just "dislike".
Words like "hate", "loathe", "detest", and "abhor" all mean something pretty similar. They refer to an extremely strong feeling against something. "Dislike" is also a feeling against something, but it's not nearly as strong. You dislike broccoli. You abhor genocide.
The Bible says different things at different times, because the Bible is a collection of books written by a number of authors from different backgrounds living in different time periods, and these authors have different ideas as to what God is like. One guy reckons that God is love; another guy reckons that God hates homosexuals. That's really all there is to it.
Your point is that God doesn't hate homosexuals. How does saying that the Bible was written by different people prove your point that God doesn't hate homosexuals?
'If a man has sexual relations with a man as one does with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They are to be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads... You must not live according to the customs of the nations I am going to drive out before you. Because they did all these things, I abhorred them.' (Leviticus 20:13-23)
Are you seriously asking if God hates one of His creations? I'd have to vote no. God doesn't hate gays. Would you be asking the same if this were back pre-Civil Rights movement if God hates blacks? You wouldn't now. It's because God doesn't hate. These groups of people that extremists promote hate towards by using God's name in vain are doing the Devil's work.
All men (and women) are created equal. Period. Every "God hates ____" sign you create makes another atheist or convert to another religion. Because people don't want to worship a God who hates His creation. I'd love another non-violent Civil Rights act to pass gay marriage. Then the next generation would be one step further from prejudice and hate and one step closer to peace and equality.
So please, stop telling me that my God hates people. That's not the Christian thing to do or believe.
God doesn't exist, God is an idea, he or it exists only in the minds of humans. Does God hate fags, no, some humans do though, and i iamgine they were they ones who wrote it in the bible.
