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Yes, better educated people/smarter are less religious.With greater understanding of the world that surrounds you, less you tend to religions, myths, magic and rituals.
A better education is not necessarily a mark of higher intelligence. Also, the question concerned choice of religion, not whether or not to have one, which is more likely determined by culture and surroundings.
A physicist is likely to be more intelligent than a farmer, but a farmer could easily be more intelligent than a professor of Family and Marriage Sciences, even though both Doctors are highly educated.
Even so, the topic seems to ask if intelligence determines religion. It's more likely that culture determines religion. Furthermore, academia may be a culture more conducive to atheism, but this is not necessarily because of higher intelligence.
how? intelligence has nothing to do with being brainwashed, that's being raised to believe these things, if any person you deem as unintelligible was handed every single religious text, and they were to study them, and then compare the stories with what we see in the real world, their intelligence would bolster ten fold.
If I know anything about creatards that it is that they do not compare their fairy tale with with reality but cutting out stuff from context, ignoring everything around, refusing accept things like biology or astrophysics, oppressing their children with same garbage... How is that intelligent? How do you compare talking snake with reality?
the talking snake was the embodiment of what is supposed to be evil, cunning.
You may call me crazy, but I like to account for what our ancestors said about "talking snakes" Add in talking snakes with UFOs and what do you get? A reptilian race that can shapeshift, now you're probably just thinking wow this guy is off his rocker, but almost every single culture, divided by thousands of miles, describe sorts of shapeshifting aliens. Like reptiles.
How does that happen? Chance? no, it has to be a global consciousness. Did every single race of humans in the past magically all dream about shapeshifting aliens that came and visited us? No, that's actually really stupid to believe
You can compare the talking snake as something that wanted us to know about the universe, to be like "the gods" which is depicted as the devil, but I think the opposite, I think it was good. You may call me crazy but I stand very firm in my beliefs and I tie in what we believed in the past to quantum mechanics today. Other dimensions, other universes, non physical realms
We know nothing about the universe. and science teaching us to not believe in god, is actually extremely detrimental because without the belief of the supernatural how are we going to learn to logically think about the other realms if we try to put our physical "only touchy feely" logic upon them? we will go insane if we try to explain it like that, that's why religious texts make no sense whatsoever, beause the universe doesn't make sense, and we try to make sense out of it
We have done a great job at explaining the universe, but with our recent discoveries we are having a very hard time trying to explain the universe in a scientific way. String theory can only explain how it works physically. The universe is NOT solely physical, and we need to understand this
This clearly shows why we should not let stereo-typical misconceptions about the supernatural shields us from all that are possible. In many cultures, the snake is considered a symbol of wisdom and knowledge.
Lol, no, I have never done psychedelics, I was never even religious I just tried to figure out what the oldest religion on earth was one day and I came across shamanism and that's when my mind went for a trip
When we dream we are using dimethyltriptamine to produce our dreams, and DMT is the most powerful hallucinogen known to mankind, so if you can "learn" things from lsd and shrooms, why not our dreams? Our dreams are the ultimate entheogen
the talking snake was the embodiment of what is supposed to be evil, cunning. that is your opinion based just and olny on your imagination, or did you know the author?
Add in talking snakes with UFOs and what do you get? A reptilian race that can shapeshift, now you're probably just thinking wow this guy is off his rocker, but almost every single culture, divided by thousands of miles, describe sorts of shapeshifting aliens. Like reptiles.
A lot of clever people are/were religious. Einstein was, Newton was, Kant was. I could name so many important intellectual figures who were deeply religious, and because I can do this, I think your idea is refuted. Intelligence isn't reversely proportional to religiosity.
Einstein wasn't religious, he was polite to religious people. Newton was a horrible cunt, he used religion as a tool, he was a chairman of Anti-catholic society. If you read his "Principia mathematica" which is his life work, there is no word about god, I wouldn't believe him his religiosity.
Kant was a very complicated person in his early works it seems to me that he was religious but very critical to the standardized view of god. From his later work ...he looks even less religious.
Often many smart people tend to present them self in public as Agnostics instead of what they really are (atheists) simply because they aren't interested in debate with religious freaks.
"Einstein wasn't religious, he was polite to religious people."
He was an agnostic, which may not be religious but certainly isn't atheist.
"Newton was a horrible cunt, he used religion as a tool, he was a chairman of Anti-catholic society."
Just because he was Anti-Catholic, doesn't mean he was anti-religious. The Catholic Church have committed many atrocities in the past.
"If you read his "Principia mathematica" which is his life work, there is no word about god, I wouldn't believe him his religiosity."
Why would anyone refer to God in a book about mathematical principles? Newton was deeply religious and spent the majority of his time studying scripture, he only studied science as a hobby.
"Often many smart people tend to present them self in public as Agnostics instead of what they really are (atheists) simply because they aren't interested in debate with religious freaks."
A rather hasty (and ridiculous) generalisation, care to back it up with any evidence?
He was an agnostic, which may not be religious but certainly isn't atheist. Agnostics are pretty much atheists.
Why would anyone refer to God in a book about mathematical principles? Newton was deeply religious and spent the majority of his time studying scripture, he only studied science as a hobby..
No, moron he did not do maths as a hobby. He was Lucasian Professor of Mathematics since his 27.
Care to make an actual argument, instead of just an opinion?
"No, moron he did not do maths as a hobby. He was Lucasian Professor of Mathematics since his 27."
Just because you do something as a hobby, doesn't mean you can't be good at it. Anyway, my argument still disputes your claim that Newton was barely religious.
If children are properly brainwashed and became so called "creatards". They will most likely not persuade to higher education simply because they think that "they know enough", everything they need to know is in the holly book and all problems can be solved by praying.
They will lose their curiosity and without that you will not go to the research...
As usual you skip the second half of the argument, the little thing that just an only priests/monks,etc. were allowed to education, literally nobody else could even read. It was one of the main methods used for control masses. Keep them totally dumb and in permanent fear of hell.
The only people apart of priests who were literate, were fro royal families and they were tough by priests who didn't have to be religious ..they just wanted some education.
Some trades men could right down numbers but no actual maths.
"The Society of Jesus (Latin: Societas Iesu, S.J., SJ or SI) is a Christian male religious order of the Roman Catholic Church. The members are called Jesuits. The society is engaged in evangelization and apostolic ministry in 112 nations on six continents. Jesuits work in education (founding schools, colleges, universities and seminaries), intellectual research, and cultural pursuits. Jesuits also give retreats, minister in hospitals and parishes and promote social justice and ecumenical dialogue."
In medieval Jesuits taught only Latin in some places French. What we call education, maths, science in general non biblical stuff, that was taught first about 1800... in that time there were actually school available everywhere. My high school was founded by Jesuits.
1540's Ignatius was chosen as the first superior-general. He sent his companions as missionaries around Europe to create schools, colleges, and seminaries
They taught Latin to allow the common people to read. If Wikipedia isnt enough, then I suppose that you got a better source of information. Would you mind sharing it?
Lets see...theres medicinal books, announcements of the king, civil rights and of course, the bible. Medieval era was already using a good trade of information and they are already starting a bank for the economy.
The ability to read is highly valued if you wish to join the trade. And the Jesuits offered it
Jesuits taught Latin. DO you even know why was Latin taught as a main subject?
They did not educated "common folks" that you've again misunderstood the Wikipedia. They read bible to common people. Jesuits had effect on education of general public, they had like one school per state with about 10 students. "Their main goal was to spread the true teaching of bible"
You original point was that Priest done most of the scientific advance in medieval. Now you should realize that it was because they were the only ones who educated... Simply knowledge of language does not helps you, try to use your English with only Bible and books based on bible to do some advance in Chemistry. You will not success.
Only professional priests had access to libraries and actual education. They were the only who did not had to work, so they could study. The "common folks" couldn't do so they had to care about their survivor.
I hope that you finally getting the point that their advanced had nothing to do with religions.
You original point was that Priest done most of the scientific advance in medieval. Now you should realize that it was because they were the only ones who educated...
- Yup your claim was that "they keep the people dumb". Which I proven false by the existance of the Jesuists
Simply knowledge of language does not helps you, try to use your English with only Bible and books based on bible to do some advance in Chemistry. You will not success.
Prove to me that the Jesuists limited their missionary goals to teaching Latin only
Only professional priests had access to libraries and actual education. They were the only who did not had to work, so they could study. The "common folks" couldn't do so they had to care about their survivor.
-Denying the existence of missionaries again, I see. While its true that they are the only ones educated, they never kept their knowledge to themselves and they are the ones responsible in spreading it to the world
I hope that you finally getting the point that their advanced had nothing to do with religions.
-Nope, I have bigger hopes that you can finally take back your words that "They will most likely not persuade to higher education simply because they think that "they know enough", "
Nox0, Your argument should read; People with a formal education are less religious.
Formal education is merely buying into that which you have been told. People with a real education decide things on their own from all information available to them.
“A learned fool is more a fool than an ignorant fool.” ― Molière
I always enjoy a good laugh when an atheist starts with critical thinking as if only an atheist can think.
mathematics, Physics, chemistry aren't matter of opinion To a degree they are a matter of opinion. Not all physicist agree. Chemistry is even up for debate among its' own, read possible side-effects of drugs. In math we know that 3+3 is not 11, but what these numbers represent can be disputed. 1 is almost never a singular number as it 1 merely represents a unit of measure. Example 1: a book has x number of molecules, y number of protons, z number of electrons, etc.
You obviously never sit a science class. 2+2=4 if you get 6 you cannot argue some compromise like it's 5. No, your opinion does not counts. Physics works same way, it uses mathematics as a language. Chemistry works very similar. ""Not all physicist agree"" but all of them follows same rules.
Did you even read what I said? What the 2's represent is what is debatable. If you add 2 apples + 2 oranges you get 4, but what does 4 tell you? Someone has to decide the results.
If they follow the same rules, we would still be using all of Newton's. Galileo wouldn't have made any contributions. Einstein's theory of relativity wouldn't exist. They don't all follow the same rules. If they did nobody would learn anything.
You may be surprised, those familiar with paganism or magick regard love,compassion and kindness a form of magick. Meditation can be ritualistic. It is not common one pursue these fields just to be Harry Potter. Those feat are impossible to do and not productive whatsoever.
Statistics show that there are more atheists among the higher IQ level than theists. I only think theres a corrolation between IQ and being thiest or non theist but not between different religions. Actually, scratch that, Mormons and scientologists are probably far lower IQ levels than Christians or otherwise.
There are plenty of cult leaders in the past and present that have an extremely high percentage of IQ. Etc. Charles Manson, Anton LaVey. Furthermore, most people have about an average IQ and yet their perceptions of reality differs from one another.
Hahaha that's it? I don't know about you but IQ questions are skewed to the favour of people who spends more time on it. Example mathematics, trigonometry. Maybe some riddles that involves creativity an critical thinking. (Let's see scientist attempting that. Let them apply 'identifying the variables, form a hypothesis' a.k.a the scientific method) And priest may have high I.Q but their mathematical skills are just rusty. Front man of Gun's and Roses, Axel has a high IQ and I trust that test somehow. He was doing poorly in school.
Let the theists have fun in their little creative worlds then. And us atheists can stick to actually making important advances in relevant areas of study
The world is governed through the realms of business, economics and management. I should know, I am in it. It involves psychology, social science, philosophy, accounting and even using scientific methods. These people are the ones that make the bucks. I dare say most of us have about an average IQ. It means little at this time and age. If 'creativity' to you only means having day dreams then you obviously do not have an ounce of it. And clearly even science requires abstract intelligence. If you have already regarded theist as incompetent before even knowing them then you did not bother doing your own research without depending on the internet and also zero comprehension of what creativity is then lets see you making important decisions.
Lavey seems more rational in tone and speech than most priest out there. To be able to commit a crime carefully thought out and to be manipulative requires commendable intelligence, no? Please look up IQ. One who possesses them are not reflected upon the job they do. You are born with high IQ and then there is the issue of environment and upbringing. Many kids with hyper active disorders have high IQ. some made it in life, some dont.
My IQ is somewhere around 180-190. I'm ADD but I don't do so badly. All is it about details. You don't have to be smart to be manipulative. Smart people aren't usually religious because it simply does not fit to reality around you. It would be like being permanently stabbed with a pencil.
'Smart people aren't usually religious because it simply does not fit to reality around you.'
Haha, my point exactly. I was beginning to wonder how you cope with miserable one liners that lacks depth in conversation. To have 180-190 is impressive but I fail to see how you will excel in fields you take no particular time and interest to invest in. I know you don't have to be smart to be manipulative but it is a clearly a remarkable sign of intelligence. It is the holy grail for leadership. There are clearly many aspects of intelligence. What do you mean religion does not fit the reality around you? I can't say for Xians but I am a Buddhist. Look up non-duality, THAT is my concept of reality. Each religion has its own way of presenting it.
I simply can compare more data... I tend to track down information.
Same it was with religion vs. me... I looked where it came from. I took me about a day.
All of them began as as misunderstanding of natural phenomena that developed into animalism with developed to into hybrid half-human-half-animal sets of gods (Ancient Egypt) followed by polytheism alá Greek gods and first monotheism like Zoroastrian, Judaism with it's top ups Christianity, Islam, Mormons...
the point is that it all begun in ignorance, it's just an error in judgement, done long time ago.
Of coarse it does. Anybody with any intelligence would never rule out what cannot be proven or disproven. To say I'm an atheist, takes no intelligence.
Theists may hate it but studies do show as education levels rise, the belief in God(s) fall, this shows to me how the belief Gods survive purely of ignorance of things like science, which is why almost everyone was one hundreds of years ago before science could explain things.
Sure it might be traumatic but it certainly wouldnt be proof or even very sufficient evidence to base belief in Hell and christianity on at all. The rational thing to do would not be to dismiss it but to asses it. What is the most likely cause for it? Maybe you're an atheist but the idea of hell always bothered you and being an atheist means you live knowing that (should christianity be correct) youll go to hell (not that it bothers most of us). This might mean that the brain simulated an imagnined dream of hell, spurred on by fear of hell mixed with a frightened shocked body and all kinds of hormones rushing like adrenaline. That is a more logical approach to it and after which, yeah, it can pretty much be dismissed.
Well theyve always been searching for the origin of life but these dream studies are pretty new. Its crazy what theyre finding. They can actually project a fuzzy image of ones dream onto a TV screen!
I guess it depends on whether they base their choice of religion on evidence rather than on faith, but as a result that kind of makes atheism more intelligent than anything else.
"Every one who is seriously engaged in the pursuit of science becomes convinced that the laws of nature manifest the existence of a spirit vastly superior to that of men, and one in the face of which we with our modest powers must feel humble. The pursuit of science leads therefore to a religious feeling of a special kind, which differs essentially from the religiosity of more naive people." Einstein
Well, to be honest I believe that intelligence truly does dictate someone's choice of religion. However, not always. First of all, those who are extremely smart in the sciences are almost always Atheists, because they know a ton of information that all goes against the belief in god. Than there are other people who are not as intelligent as far as science goes, so they are the people who are more willing to believe in god. Then there are people who have an average intelligence, so most of the population, who simply just decide for themselves whether there decision is based off of what they know or not. There are many factors that go into whether a person is religious or if they are not, and intelligence does play a role in some cases, but not always. But for the most part, I would say yes.
For Christians to believe everything that is mentioned in the bible without questioning has nothing to do with any inferior intelligence but ignorance. Intelligence is used to analyse information. If that information is limited and controlled anyone can be 'stupid'. Even cavemen.
I am an Atheist, however you are basically saying that all Christians believe that everything is mentioned in the bible without questioning it. That is not true, however. There are a lot of so called "Christians" who do not fully believe everything in the bible. And I will say that it is not always ignorance like you like you claim. Yes, I think a lot of religious people are ignorant. But you also have to understand that sometimes it is just choice. They choose to believe in something because it makes them feel better, it gives them help to put faith in a "god" It doesn't mean they are ignorant nessacarily.
You are mixing 'regular' folks with a religion and an actually religious person. The bible is clear about damnation and those who have very clear motives of escaping that fate are the real numb skulls..and real Christians. Those who casually need a sense of divine protection need not have to be a Christian and those who really are Christians takes it to levels we couldnt comprehend.
Of course it does. If one is a pseudo-intellect, then your choice is atheism. If you are actually intelligent then one of the other religions is your choice.
No, plenty of great civilisations, empires, cultures in the past have indeed a strong religious background. Polytheism in fact. China, Egypt, Greek. Many have had made incredible scientific discoveries. It is only the Abrahmic religions that insist that the meddlings of their dusty tome contains absolute truth and persecute anyone that goes against them till this very day.
No, conquer was a very common game. I bet most religions do not permit slaughter among kingdoms. Japan and China were Buddhist countries but they were at each others necks and this still happens today.
I will if you do. Countries that branches out their influence are among a small a minority of people. Rulers force common folks like farmers, artisans to their cause. No one wants to go to war. Countries rarely go to war for the sake of religion but for land and power. Why bother a miserable looking place that has differing believes.
I'm not religious but if you think about it, the life of ignorance in which you can push all your problems on a "god," is ingenious. To live through bliss is a dream i have. "Perception is suffering."
It's not dumb to put faith in a higher power, when your house get's burned down because electricity struck it, when the reality is that it was just a freak accident. It's just more comfortable to believe that happened for a reason, and that when you die, you won't just rot in the ground, but instead you'll be transported to peace. It's also not dumb to believe that good people are rewarded and bad people are punished, it's just more comfortable to.
The media state and culture has boiled the world down to global awareness of only 5 options 'Christian', 'Catholic', 'Agnostic', 'Jewish', and 'Athiest'. The world isn't so straight forward and these religions are so massive and convoluted that we can't really see that there are any others. Truth is that any fact or logic contained with in them has been jumbled by humanity to the point of mass contradiction.
Take a look at American History and tell me the religion which most ever founding father and hero is - its Deism. The belief in god/gods and not churches and their books - mostly that god exists without influencing our earthly existance. It is possibly to believe in god without mass corruption or false devotion.
intelligence, we can all agree is book knowledge. If I have spent years studying anything concerned with religion, I could be considered intelligent in those regards.
Being smart or having book knowledge is not necessarily the same as intelligence. I think that's the disconnect here. Some people are very intelligent without formal book knowledge. They have a knack for critical thinking or analysis.
I cannot comprehend how degrees of intelligence can correlate with a belief system. Religions is most often sprouted from a long and strict process of teachings and experiences guided by parents or other authorities. Intelligence is a personal journey which constantly changes and forms new shapes as time passes. Religion is most often a stable growth. In short, intelligence is more of a personal occurrence which we create ourselves and religion is more of a set of principles in which we do not need certain levels of intelligence to understand or follow it.
But I wasn't talking about just following religion. I was referring to people who are deeply immersed in their religion and know the history and terms quite well.
Wikipedia isn't very valid, maybe you could cross reference that with something that not just anybody can edit. Religion is a hot topic, it's not too implausible that someone would fudge the results in their favor.
I don't think it does religion is a personal journey and your choice of which path to take on that journey does not imply how intelligent you are, although your intelligence may determine how much you understand the religious teachings
"smarter" people can compare mythology to reality distinguish it from it and bin it. Idiots can't do simply because they are not capable of such comparison also they lack knowledge to compare it with.
One's preference for a certain way of thinking is dependant on the environments that mould him, not his degree of cleverness or knack for understanding divine/humane concepts.
My guess is that although they think they are more intelligent their are some Atheists who don't seem to understand the difference between religion and Theism.
You can have Religion without Theism but you cannot have Theism without religion, if you don't understand that your obviously not as smart as you think and are hardly in a position to take the piss out of other people because of their beliefs
In fact upon thinking about it a bit more you can believe some kind of Deity exists without following a religion so your are completely incorrect you can have religion without Theism and Theism without religion
You've defeated yourself with your own argument with your comment about Buddhism. Buddhism, Taoism and Paganism are all religions that don't neccasarily involve Deity's and as I pointed out people who don't follow a religion but believe that a deity exists prove that you can have Theism without Religion.
Theism without religion is the belief that there is some form of Deity or higher power but the person with that belief may not follow a religion due to the fact that many of them have caused trouble over the years or they may not have found a religion that suits them. You can be anti organised religion but still believe there is some form of Deity.
Buddhism and Taoism is more than a point of view and both religions are too complicated to go into here, you'll need to look into it yourself, for an insight into Taoism the Tao Due Ching is a good start.
Worshipping nature is different to worshipping a God some Pagans do worship Gods but not all, again its something you will need to look into yourself.
Looking into and learning about religion can be very interesting even if you don't believe it can give you an insight into how other people think.