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 Does being Pro Choice mean being Pro Abortion? (53)

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TheAshman(2299) pic



Does being Pro Choice mean being Pro Abortion?

I thought i'd come at the Abortion debate from a different angle I dont want your opinion on why you think Abortion is good or bad or if it should be illegal or not we've had enough of those, I want to know why you think being Pro Choice is not Pro Abortion or why you think it is Pro Abortion.  As I stated this is not a debate about why you think Abortion is good or bad, so I dont want any crap about unborn childrens rights or child molestation, that's been done to death.

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4 points

I am Pro Choice, as I believe people should have a choice on family planning, contraception and having a "safe" abortion, rather than having to break the law to prevent becoming pregnant or having a dangerous back street illegal abortion.

My view is that by being Pro Choice makes me Pro Abortion on a technicality, I don't like Abortion and I know it is not a quick fix for pregnancy as the decision will live with you for the rest of your life but I do believe the choice should be there.

1 point

Absolutely Ashman well said I'm with you for the very same reasons .

3 points

I think Dana made a debate almost identifical to this a few hours ago.

TheAshman(2299) Clarified
2 points

I totally missed that I could've saved myself some time and posted on that, bugger. Oh well what's done is done

TheAshman(2299) Disputed
2 points

I just had a quick look Dana's was slightly different and still gave plenty of room to post emotive rather than logical arguments with this debate I'm trying to escape the emotive arguments and try and get a more logical reasoning, maybe I'm hoping too much as this is an argument like religion that people tend to base more on emotion, I'm hoping on a different angle and did not think Dana's debate was the place to post what I have on here.

I am not saying that arguing from an emotive point of view is wrong and there is nothing wrong with Dana's debate I just wanted to try and get a different perspective on the topic.

2 points

No... being pro CHOICE does not mean pro ABORTION. They are obviously two different words and you'd have to be either mildly illiterate or stricken with a mild case of the dumb to associate either with each other in that way.

Pro-choice is very open ended.

Pro-abortion is very focused.

Now, someone who is pro-abortion and vice versa can also be entirely pro choice. That's the point of being pro choice. You sanction for yourself the ABILITY to CHOOSE.

And any pro-choicer would beable to change their views at any time for what ever reason. Meaning one day they can be pro-abortion. Next day some kind of information gives em a good ol' wack upside the head and has them go. "Hmm, i might have to rethink this one..." then they ponder away for alittle while before deciding "Maybe abortion wont/will be best."

These people are free (pro-choicers)

These people are not (Pro-abortion)

...

Am I making any sense?

Atrag(5550) Disputed
1 point

Can I ask, what would someone that is 'pro-abortion' be like to you? Would they believe that woman have a moral duty to abort their pregnancy? Maybe using the reason that the earth is overpopulated.

1 point

someone who is pro-abortion is an eccentric kind of person. By that I mean that if a woman was having a baby the first thought that they would have in their head would be "Abort the ing thing" and have no sway in their mind as to not abort it. Being pro-abortion i would see them as people who are all for it, all the time. Regardless of reasoning. Their reason could simply be "I just didn't want it.". While a pro-choicer would see abortion as an option but weigh other options against it. Like adoption.

even though the standard definition wonders into the whole legal and moral obligations of it. It really doesn't matter. legalized or not it still comes down to the choices we make. I think it should be legal but, I am not pro-abortion. I simply feel people deserve the right to be free and choose safe methods other then say... kicking your girl in the stomach and have her fall down the stairs... you know.. just to be sure. (just because they were pro-abortion in that example both father or friend and mother)

TheAshman(2299) Clarified
1 point

I was thinking along the lines of keeping it legal or making it illegal should've been clearer. Those that want abortion to be illegal cannot be pro choice they want to take that freedom away, my view is if you are pro choice meaning your are pro keeping abortion legal your are pro abortion on a technicality even if personally you don't like the procedure and wouldn't have one yourself, nothing to do with being illiterate or dumb.

1 point

Perhaps it should have been lol because now I look like a bumbling retard. :P shrugs in that case. According to 5-6 dictionaries I've looked at they are in fact synonymous in the abortion debate because, your personal feelings on the subject would be null and void. however, it is just a good way to label yourself so you're not mixed in with the wrong crowed. Which I believe i mentioned above.

1 point

Yes, you're making sense. I've got your back, man. Don't sweat. Pro-choice is not pro-abortion. It's just the freedom to choose.

2 points

I believe that aborting a fetus is morally wrong - I'm pro-life - but I believe it shouldn't be made illegal because it is necessary that women have the decision to make this immoral decision.

So where does that put me...? I'm pro-choice and pro-life?

I think no one is completely anti- or pro- anything. Pro-lifers are pro-abortion in certain situations (for example when the fetus is going to cause the death of the mother if not aborted then the woman has a choice to abort) but those that are pro-choice are usually more pro-abortion than those that are pro-life.

I think a requisite of being pro-choice is being, to an extent, pro-abortion, but of course they're not exactly the same thing but the pro-choice stance could not exist without a belief that abortion isn't immoral. Its the counterpoint to pro-lifers who believe that abortion is immoral in many circumstances.

1 point

I think you and I have similar views although you seem more of a pro abortion under special circumstances kind of view where I'm more of the view that the choice should be there for all even accidental pregnancy (correct me if I'm wrong), I don't like abortion but see it more from the point of view that its a neccesary evil

No.

"Abortion is undeniably the taking of potential life. It is not pretty. It is not easy. And in a perfect world, it would not be necessary."

—Dr. Barnett Slepian, OB-GYN and abortionist murdered in 1998.

Supporting Evidence: See here: (rationalwiki.org)
1 point

But unfortunately this is not a perfect world, Barnett Slepian murdered by a Pro Life supporter just shows how mad the world is

Yes, and what is even worse is that the militant terrorists at the Army of God have turned James Kopp into some form of hero:

http://www.armyofgod.com/JamesKopp2.html (NSFW, hate site)

The Army of God is one of the most despicable organisations alive today. Whatever your position on abortion, murder is not a political device.

1 point

No. Prochoice just means that women have the right to choose parenting, adoption, or abortion. Prochoicers try not to emphacize any of those choices.

Randy Alcorn had the best answer for this question...and I agree with his so I will post it.

"Many people say, “I’m not pro-abortion, but I’m pro-choice.”

But how would you respond to someone who said, “I’m not pro-rape, I’m just pro-choice about rape”? You’d realize his position implies that rape doesn’t really hurt anyone, and that it’s sometimes justifiable. You’d say, “To be pro-choice about rape is to be pro-rape.”

In exactly the same way, to be pro-choice about abortion is to be pro-abortion.

At first glance the bumpersticker slogan makes sense: “Against Abortion? Don’t Have One.” The logic applies perfectly to flying planes, playing football, or eating pizza...but not to rape, torture, kidnapping or murder.

A Middle Position?

Some imagine that being personally opposed to abortion, while believing others have the right to choose it, is some kind of compromise between the pro-abortion and pro-life positions. It isn’t. Pro-choice people vote the same as pro-abortion people. To the baby who dies it makes no difference whether those who refused to protect her were pro-abortion or “merely” pro-choice about abortion.

The only good reason to oppose abortion is a reason that compels us to oppose others doing it—it’s child killing. Being personally against abortion but favoring another’s right to abortion is self-contradictory. It’s exactly like saying, “I’m personally against child abuse, but I defend my neighbor’s right to abuse his child if that is his choice.” Or “I’m personally against slave-owning, but if others want to own slaves that’s none of my business.” Or, “I’m not personally in favor of wife-beating, but I don’t want to impose my morality on others, so I’m pro-choice about wife-beating.”

A radio talk show host told me she was offended that some people called her “pro-abortion” instead of “pro-choice.” I asked her, on the air, “Why don’t you want to be called pro-abortion? Is there something wrong with abortion?” She responded, “Abortion is tough. It’s not like anybody really wants one.” I said, “I don’t get it. What makes it tough? Why wouldn’t someone want an abortion?” She said, suddenly impassioned, “Well, you know, it’s a tough thing to kill your baby!”

The second she said it, she caught herself, but it was too late. In an unguarded moment she’d revealed what she knew, what everyone knows if they’ll only admit it: abortion is difficult for the same reason it’s wrong—because it’s killing a child.

And there’s no reason good enough for killing a child.

http://www.epm.org/resources/2010/Ap...on-pro-choice/

If we voted in this country on abortion...you would be standing in the line with those who want no protection for the unborn. Your vote kills...the pro-life vote saves...whether you would get an abortion or not.

Cartman(18192) Disputed
1 point

Abortion is tough for the same reason not following Jesus is tough. A bunch of backward people who believe the same thing uncivilized desert dwellers believed thousands of years ago are constantly telling you you are bad, and they are loud mouths.

People don't want to be labeled pro abortion because pro life means life for all. So, using that definition of pro life, what does pro abortion mean?

And pro choice is more like, oh look, my neighbor is using chemicals on his lawn to kill the weeds. I don't want to do it that way, but I think it is ok for him to.

churchmouse(328) Disputed
0 points

WEll I am not going to argue with a pagan who knows nothing about Christ...or what was believed back in Bible times who just wants to make pot shots at believers.

It is funny that you acknowledge that abortion is tough...and what is sad is that you still support it. You know that which is in the womb is a human...and its ok for you to kill humans. I can only imagine what else you condone.

Pro-abortion means that you want abortion legal so women can kill. Whether you would get one does not matter..you want it legal.

I don't believe so.

I was formerly pro life, being in favor of adoption as an option if the parents do not want to raise the child. I now see that as being very short sighted of me.

Actually looking into statistics regarding adoption, it simply is not a viable option for most children. Only a small fraction of those who are put up for adoption actually get adopted; most get shipped around various foster homes. Foster homes are by and large terrible. Not all of them, mind you, just most of them. That is no kind of life for a child; not only did their parents not want them, nobody wanted to adopt them either! Is it so strange that career criminals and addicts are SIGNIFICANTLY more common amongst this demographic?

Repeating myself, I am pro choice primarily because adoption in most cases simply is not a viable option. Thats a realist perspective. There are exceptions, of course, such as cases where the adoption is planned ahead of time with individuals known to the birth parents of the child, and that is not what I'm decrying here. But the model where a mother gives up her child for potential adoption, without any actual guarantee that the child will be adopted, is just plain cruel. I think it would be better for everyone involved if abortion was opted for in those cases.

I am pro choice because I acknowledge that the current prospects of adoption for those currently in the system are terrible- not because I am pro abortion.

churchmouse(328) Disputed
0 points

You want killing on the table because you don't think a child could find a home. So better to kill it. How do you know a child would not find a home? You are playing God that is what you are doing. How many other segments of society do you think would be better dead? The handicapped? The poor?

Since you are pro-abortion then I assume you would give the woman the right to kill on demand the whole nine months.

Abortion is cruel...your position is cruel. You are for allowing women to take hits out on the human beings in their womb.

1 point

I very nearly knee jerked and tore into you, but cleared the argument box in favor of typing with a clearer head after a few breaths.

Currently, abortion is legal in most of the country. Despite that, there are far more children in the system than have any hope of being adopted. Banning abortion would exacerbate that issue significantly- that much is indisputable.

How do I know a child will not find a home? Simple statistics. The vast majority of them don't. Ban abortion, and while the number of children put up for adoption will increase, the number of children actually adopted will not. With abortion illegal, you are talking a large, flat increase in the number of children being funneled through a horrible system.

Your statement regarding the poor and handicapped is a blatant non-sequitur and an obvious strawman tactic. Your statement accusing me of being pro-abortion is not even worth addressing.

The foster system is cruel... your position is cruel. You are for increasing the number of children passed around foster homes where they are subjected to physical, mental, and sexual abuse. That is not an exaggeration- brush up on some facts before you start taking shots at people. The good foster home is the exception to the rule!

No, I am pro choice politically, but personally I am pro life, I find the idea of murdering an unborn child to be savage, but I shouldn't have to dictate what a woman can do with her body, it is not my place to make that desicion, I may be pro choice but I strongly sympathize with those who are pro life. Therefor in that light I dont want babies to be aborted, I simply believe it is the choice of the mother as it is her own body, i also want to legalize all illegal drugs so they can be taken off the black market and be regulated as a legal activity, does that make me pro drug? No, it simply means my personal opinion shouldnt dictate how people run their own lives.

churchmouse(328) Disputed
1 point

No...honey...you can't be both.

Being pro-choice...how does that help the life in the womb?

You stand with those who don't care about all life. Your position is pro-abortion in every sense of the term. Why don't you like it? If there is something wrong in your opinion about abortion..then why not stand up for life? And if there is nothing wrong with it...why don't you embrace the label? It does represent your position. Abortion is not savage enough for you to want to do what is right and oppose it.

You say your pro-choice...you don't believe that you can tell another what to do with their bodies. So do you condone choice throughout the entire pregnancy? How about a woman who wants to kill at nine months for no reason? You choice then? I bet not. You would enslave the woman to fit your morality at that point. Shouldn't women have the right to kill anytime?

If you say viability matters...you are a hypocrite..because you go against the choice you say that I would want to deny women by wanting abortion illegal...your very own position of wanting killing an option.

You obviously don't care enough about the life in the womb.

Does that make you pro-drugs. Yes it does. I believe that you even would have supported the Souths...wanting to own slaves, right?

You are pro-abortion.

Thejackster(517) Disputed
0 points

Your taking my argument out of context, slaves were forced into slavery, they didn't agree with it, some one who takes drugs did so because they chose to, no one forced them to do it. An embryo has no conscience, science has proved this, saying that aborting a fetus is killing the baby is like saying scratching your nose is killing a baby because both are simpler celled organisms who have the capability to become human beings, do you feel guilt when you use germex on your hand to genocide hundreds of bacteria that reside there, probably not. Btw, judging by your profile information i see that you are a christian, so technically in your mind a baby conceived out of rape would probably be better off dead "in heaven with God" then living a life with a parent who doesn't want them. Your God has technically performed abortions as well, if he creates us and puts us in the womb, why are there so many miscarriages?

No. It is equivalent to saying, "I support the troops," but saying so does not necessarily mean that the individual supports war.