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Because he is evil?,....,....... no-one on earth wants to accept that answer but.."IF" u believe that there is a god and if u believe that he is all knowing and in total control then there is no choice "but" to say that he is evil.
. . . . . . Is a "devil" necessary or was he just an event that God didn't foresee?
This is my basis for saying the devil works for god. When you consider the carrot/whip debt situation god placed humanity in, you realize it would be impossible without the promise of heaven, human sacrifice, and the threat of hell. The devil provides for that last point. Without him and without hell the entire Christian system of morality and salvation and punishment becomes completely null and void. Jesus saved us from... what? Hellfire. We try to get into heaven and avoid... what? Hell. We're supposed to be following god and can be led astray by... who? The devil. If you remove the devil and hell we have no place to be punished, nobody to negatively influence us, and we all get into heaven by default.
Star Wars would have been a very boring movie absent Darth Vader and the Death Star. If no adversity threatened the Republic, there would have been no point in filming anything.
The Lord of the Rings would have been a pointless story if there weren't Sauron and he evil forces trying to prevent Frodo from completing his task. If he just walked up to Mt. Doom and dropped the ring in no problem in the first 15 min of the first movie, I don't think the movies would have been quite as successful.
The point is every story needs a villain; every hero needs a nemesis. Bible stories are no different. How they are different is in Bible stories the hero (god) claims to be all powerful, claims he is holding all the cards. Unlike the heroes in Star Wars or LotR, he could overcome or stop the villains anytime he wants, but he chooses not to. He has a power almost no protagonist in no story has; the ability to completely fuck the antagonist with a snap of his fingers. But he doesn't. He allows the story, the drama, to continue. The devil continues to corrupt souls and millions of gods "children" who he supposedly loves continue to fry in hellfire all because god refuses to put a stop to his nemesis.
So you have to ask yourself, if Batman was actually powerful enough to stop the Joker any time he pleased, but he chose to allow the Joker to terrorize Gotham so that he could run around doing his "dark knight" thing and kicking ass and saving people instead, does the Joker not "work for" Batman in a sense? Does the Jokers existence not allow for Batman to have a purpose?
Star Wars would have been a very boring movie absent Darth Vader and the Death Star.*
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I'm a little embarrassed that I missed Vader as a devil. But I agree with you. Without a villain, drama just isn't drama.
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As a Mormon, I was taught that "all things are demonstrated by their opposites. That only way to know joy was know pain. Even though most Mormons would burn me at the stake, I have really come to believe this.
I'm a little embarrassed that I missed Vader as a devil. But I agree with you. Without a villain, drama just isn't drama.
It's also not a story. Without some kind of antagonist or adversity for the hero to overcome you literally can't tell a tale. Christianity could not function without the devil.
That only way to know joy was know pain.
You really think that you would be incapable of feeling joy at, say, holding your newborn baby in your arms for the first time without having, say, had your kneecaps blown out (not trying to exaggerate but newborns represent great joy and blown out kneecaps represent great pain, so they seemed roughly equal on the joy/pain scale)?
You really think that you would be incapable of feeling joy at, say, holding your newborn baby in your arms for the first time without having, say, had your kneecaps blown out (not trying to exaggerate but newborns represent great joy and blown out kneecaps represent great pain, so they seemed roughly equal on the joy/pain scale)?
Wrong kind of a pain. When I first held my child, I was probably more aware of the pain then the joy. I had a knowing that if anything ever happened to her, or if I lost her, I would probably die.
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I have another saying, (though I was crushed to find out it wasn't my idea) that the ability to live life is directly proportional to your ability to tolerate pain. Love makes us vulnerable. While there is not greater joy then love felt, there is not greater pain then love lost.
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We "risk" much when we love. Even the risk is painful. Some times when people has been hurt, they will not even "risk" it again.
As a Mormon (this post) + I work for the devil. (above post) = ...?
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Or ignore this completely because it is really none of my business. Curiosity has the better of me though. :)
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LOL
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I was wondering when someone was going to catch that. And no, I didn't really mean for them to be related. Mormons fear the devil.
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I work for the devil is part of what I started this debate. Which has been interesting to see, that so far, most agree that He works for God.
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In my case. . . . there are two main factors to consider in my employment of the Lord of Demons. First: The Universe is consciousness based. The root of the universe is pure mathematics which creates consciousness. Second: Truth Happens!!
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At the higher levels of the universe, they are closer to truth and function almost perfectly. At the lower levels, (where we exist) functionality is a greatly diminished. The reason that we can "screw up" so badly is because of how easy it is to "ignore" the truth. This is called our "ignor-ance."
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For example: I have a granddaughter that can hit other children and feel no remorse. Last night I used the "ice burg" concept to explain the subconscious to her. But (because I believe it) connected the subconsciousness. I explained how anything she did does to someone else comes down in the subconscious and tries to come back up in her consciousness, thus creating guilt or pain. I showed her that same happens with a hug.
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Even at 5 (and with a serious case of ODD) she understood about the hug. She could feel the good feelings when she gave a hug. But she couldn't feel the pain when she hit.
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Skipping back to us. Truth happens. Live is a based on consciousness. When something happens, the subconscious is about as fully aware of it as consciousness can be. 99% of that information is striped off, just because it is a too overwhelming. God doesn't expect us to process it all, and besides, He really just wants us to deal with the "behavioral issues" right now.
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When something happens, there is a mathematical truth about it. You might consider this the "Actual Truth" but it's not something that we fully understand. In order for the universe to stay "true" which is a mathematical requirement, if the consciousness stripes of information that is needed to "balance the account" so to speak, that information is sort of held in a escrow account.
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For example: Maybe I hit someone. The Subconsciousness tries to balance the account by sending the pain to me, so that I can feel remorse and make it right. However, if I refuse to feel it, the event is mathematically split into what I would feel and what I would not feel. What I would not feel, (which is usually some form of pain or suffering) is escrowed until I am ready to deal with.
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Since all of this has to do with consciousness and subconsciousness, imaginary characters can have great influence. The Devil is the Lord of Demons exists because all of the pain that we have caused, and yet ignore, are like living creatures waiting to be put our of their misery. Someone has to deal with them.
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There is some old art that unintentionally captures this. One picture is a Saint trying to climb a mountain to heaven with hundreds of demons around him. Belong are the sinners, laughing at him, with only a few demons around them.
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Often times, it is the so-called-righteous that have denied how much hurt they have caused, while so-called-sinners accept it and live and let live. Most often, it is those trying to appear righteous that hide their demons.
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Here is the funny part, and I'm totally ok if you want to laugh. I realized at a fairly young age, I actually have some authority over these "demons." Sometimes, very spooky things would happen when "called down the universe" on someone. Sometimes, it would work, other times not. I just thought I was a crazy, (which I'm sure folks are thinking now.) Slowly I realized, it only worked on people that I knew had done something wrong.
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Years and years later, I think I understand it better. Truth Happens. It's is a mathematical requirement of anything that happens. The Devil works in the Department of God's Grace, (metaphorically speaking.) When someone denies the pain they might have caused, under normal circumstances, they wouldn't be able too. The truth would simply push it through. However, because God has "given us free agency" the pain is allowed to be blocked for sometimes. Not forever, but for awhile.
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Anyway, everybody is at a different stage in the game. Some people are still good on their grace-to-pain ratio. Others are not. But not only do people cause pain as individuals, they can also cause pain as a group. Some times a group over extends their grace:pain ratio.
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Part of what I do is help break down the "denial" part so that some of the "demons" can be put to rest. Demons are someone's pain. They are not happy.
In my case... higher levels... ignorance... consciousness... escrow... Devil... God's grace... grace-to-pain ratio
I want to make sure that I understand you correctly. My sense of your argument is as follows: The universe is ordered around certain mathematical truths, and central to these truths is the notion of balance. Human beings are incapable of always seeing those truths and therefore of recognizing that balance, and it is from this inability that our personal flaws emerge. Not feeling guilt/remorse/pain as a consequence of harming another is an imbalance within the universe; such an imbalance is the consequence of God’s giving humans free will and individuals choosing not to feel guilt/remorse/pain come back to them as a consequence of their harmful acts to others. When a person does not feel that pain/guilt/remorse they develop demons, and the imbalance is shifted onto the imaginary concept of the Devil. In a sense, the Devil corrects for God’s having allowed humans not to feel guilt/remorse/pain and keeps the mathematical balance. Does that sound right?
I hold something of a different view of the universe and of human beings. I do not think that the universe demands a balance of grace-to-pain, but rather believe that it is in the nature of the universe and of humanity to hold such a ratio in imbalance. I see no reason why the universe should need such an imbalance corrected, nor do I understand how the fictional construct of a God and Devil could correct the imbalance. The displacement of guilt/pain from an individual to something which exists only as a construction of the human mind and of society seems not to hold things in balance. I suppose that your argument holds more weight if one believes in God, yet it seems strange that a deity would create a conscious species that would produce such an imbalance and necessitate the existence of the Devil in the first place (rather than making a balanced system to begin with).
I also do not think that the inability to feel guilt/pain/remorse is a choice as I understand it to be a neurobiological phenomenon. Research has demonstrated that those who do not feel guilt/pain/remorse upon hurting or taking advantage of another have actual structural differences in their brains. To me, this indicates that the universe does not require balance and that reality evidences a truth of imbalance instead.
Granddaughter... funny part
Firstly, thanks for sharing both of these personal statements with me. It helps me to understand where you are coming from. In the case of your granddaughter I suppose I am still inclined to take a neurobiological view, but I think that your actions and interventions are admirable.
With respect to your authority over demons, I do not personally understand but I also see no reason why I should laugh. I personally think that the human mind has a capacity to make connections out of chance correlations, and so my inclination is to understand what you explain as being a product of those associations rather than of actual causation (I also hold rather high standards for causation). At the same time, I have learned to respect the lived experiences of other people and so long as I cannot see any way in which your thinking/feeling that clearly has a causal connection to harm befalling others I do not really care.
Anyway, everybody is at a different stage in the game. Some people are still good on their grace-to-pain ratio. Others are not. But not only do people cause pain as individuals, they can also cause pain as a group. Some times a group over extends their grace:pain ratio. ... Part of what I do is help break down the "denial" part so that some of the "demons" can be put to rest. Demons are someone's pain. They are not happy.
It is interesting that we hold rather divergent views of the universe and of human beings, and yet we arrive at something of a similar place. I do agree that the grace:pain ratio is imbalanced for individuals and groups quite often, and I also agree with your other sentiment that the saint-like often have more unaddressed "demons" than the purported sinner. I am also all for putting our personal demons to rest as best we can, although I understand them in a strictly metaphorical sense. I think we mostly diverge in our understanding of whether the universe is ordered around balance or imbalance and the role of God and Devil in keeping that order.
I want to make sure that I understand you correctly.
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Wow, I think you pretty much nailed it. I'm impressed. . . . whether with you or me, I'm not sure yet.
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Jace says:
I see no reason why the universe should need such an imbalance corrected, nor do I understand how the fictional construct of a God and Devil could correct the imbalance.
God and the Devil are built into the universe. The Devil is a metaphor. For example: I have this image of myself where I am dangerous dragon with a taste for fairness. Another of my kind might see himself/herself as a pencil pushing pansy with a little black brief case, going door to door collecting debts.
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The universe doesn't NEED anyone to really balance it, as it is. One day, during a meditation trance in my backyard, I had a moment where my consciousness merged with the natural life in the trees, grass, termites, microbes, etc. The feelings was filled with love and bliss. I could feel the wood rotting, the termites eating, etc, and the feeling of co-existence was absolutely beautiful. There was enough bliss in my background to makeup for the pain of a thousand humans.
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The need for balance is a "parental" thing. Humans are different from the animal kingdom. What animals do, they really don't have much choice over. Wolves are going to eat baby lambs, because that is what they do. There really isn't any karma connected to the natural cycle of life.
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(Warning Religious View coming up:) We are "God's Children." We will soon have the power to "mess up the universe." We must have a sense of accountability and responsibility. We are already messing up Mother Earth.
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God has said in the past that He would not hold us accountable for laws that we don't know about. So obviously there is some room error.
I see the system as a type of banking system. We are allowed to borrow and spend, but we must learn how to balance our accounts. The Devil and God "don't have to" balance the universe, for as you said, it balances its self. The "balancing" is a service for those that would progress in their education.
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How you see this system doesn't really matter. It could be a banking system with everyone in black ties, or with dragons, wizards, and unicorns. Perception is reality. The gears backstage can create millions of different realities with the same principles.
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Human life is a little like eating at a fancy restaurant. When you take a bite of lobster, perhaps you can see the fisherman, the netmaker, the mechanic, the boat maker, the dock hand, the shipper, the kitchen staff, the army and police that keep you safe, the building you are in, the car you drove in, etc, etc, etc, that allows you to eat that bite. A lot is given us. However, we must learn a sense of accountability. Because the universe is consciousness, much is measured in pain and joy.
God and the Devil are built into the universe. The Devil is a metaphor.
If the Devil is a metaphor then presumably he is not real, and I do not see how something which does not actually exist beyond being a concept balances out anything. Also, for clarity, if the Devil is a metaphor is God a metaphor or imaginary being as well?
The universe doesn't NEED anyone to really balance it, as it is.
If there is no need then what is the point of God and the Devil?
The need for balance is a "parental" thing. Humans are different from the animal kingdom. What animals do, they really don't have much choice over.
A point of divergence between our views, I think, is that I consider human behavior to be highly determined rather than voluntary. I think choice is an illusion of the conscious mind rather than an actuality.
I see the system as a type of banking system. We are allowed to borrow and spend, but we must learn how to balance our accounts. ... A lot is given us. However, we must learn a sense of accountability.
Again, I do not see that balance is the natural order of things in terms of pain and joy. I think that there is cause and effect and interrelation, but I do not see this as a balance so much as it is a chain of events. I see no need for a god nor devil.
That said, I think accountability and responsibility come into play still as a system of reactions. If one acts irresponsibly there will generally come about consequences to that behavior, and therein lies the accountability. To me, though, this is not balance but action and reaction.
If the Devil is a metaphor then presumably he is not real,
Not true. A metaphor is a parallel image or meaning to give description to something that cannot otherwise be described. For example: Moses' staff could be a metaphor of God's support.
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God is a metaphor too. The Most High God is beyond us to describe. God is the Living Truth. How can we understand such truth? The Devil is more of a metaphor, but the devil doesn't exist in the context that most people have assigned him. There is no "Evil Lord" out there trying to destroy us. The only thing trying to destroy us is our ignorance.
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The evil genus image isn't a balanced healthy being. First off, someone with that kind of intelligence is probably high functioning Autism and Asperger's Syndrome. These types of genus usually lack the emotional element of most humans and were probably mistrusted because of the "difference." There are "psychos" but again that is usually something genetic and considered a "disorder."
Jace says:
If there is no need then what is the point of God and the Devil?
God is the creator. God is the Living Truth. That is necessary. Duality, in the form of good and evil, is sort of a human thing. The universe doesn't actually work on duality. That is the entire point of my argument.
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God's intent to one of Love. I believe in what is. We have a story of a devil and most religious cultures do. For whatever reason, it is a necessary element of successful civilization. I think the Devil can be outgrown and isn't a long term solution for the stimulation of humanity.
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God is Love. His creations are born out of that. When we can love something and seek it with good grace, that can be our motivation. God's love is bigger then us. God's love is the engine of the universe.
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Love is a "drawing action." Love "draws" things to us. We become like a magnet for the things we want.
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Actually, I use the "Black Hole" as a example of God's Love. The Black Hole is engine that drives the galaxies. As things get closer to the Black Hole, time slows down and may actually stop entirely. Some propose that nothing actually goes "into" the Black Hole because time stops.
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Because the universe is based on consciousness, some things are tricky. For example: Eternal Love is a "drawing" force that lasts for ever. However, if you ever possess the thing that you desire, then the desire for that thing diminishes. Hence is born the religious idea that you can possess nothing. Not that they had the same idea as I do.
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But this is also evident in relationships where one tries to "own" the others. They become dysfunctional. The trick is to love and enjoy but never to actually own. This way, you never truly lose anything and suffer that pain, but rather live with gratitude for what you have while your have it.
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With eternal desire, you can hold the things you love in an eternal pattern around you, but never actually own them.
First, a devil/deva/daemon is an ascended being/higher power.
If 'devil' is reference to Satan, Satan does not exist. Satan is a made up mix of gods and myths. Referring to the most prominent deity in the Satan mix, Hades is the underworld deity, and he probably manages some demons.