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I know, I know... "Every individual Christian is the self appointed expert, and every non christian just needs to study more/ doesnt have the holy ghost."
I think I more or less just wanted to see how good some people were at dodging and leaping over obstacles.
Lolzors93 has proven to be an adept acrobat. Bravo Lolzors
I realize there’s no real point in debating someone who doesn’t question their own data or objectively analyze the data that is presented to them in opposition. But its sometimes amusing to see the roaches scramble when you reveal the light to them.
Can God not make war upon evil, but be at peace with those whom He loves? He instills a heart of peace in the hearts of man, for those whom He has chosen to love Him; and He makes war upon evil. This is not a contradiction.
Its all throughout the Bible: Jesus came to bring peace, but this peace came through Jesus conquering evil. Many things are not literally in the quotations, but that doesn't mean we cannot infer them from the Bible. For example, when Revelations says that God alone is holy, but Hebrews says that we must be holy in order to see God, we infer from other parts of the Bible that a type of imputed righteousness came about. No where in the Bible does it say, "imputed righteousness," but it is inferred.
Can a man be a man of peace by being a man of war?
lol, no. It’s like f-ing for virginity.
Being one negates the other.
I'm not going to try to convince you otherwise, you've already indicated that you clearly don't understand the concept… that’s all I really needed to know
Not at all. A peaceful country can easily go to war with another country that is attacking it. Thats not a contradiction; its only a lack of critical thinking.
Ok. but thats way different than "Can a man be a man of peace by being a man of war."
Im not going to continue with this if you're just going to add words and meanings into things that weren't there to begin with... for both your arguments AND the Bible I should add.
My contention with the verses I provided was that they indicate God as both one of peace and one of war.
YOU were the one that brought up “Can a man be a man of peace by being a man of war” and “A peaceful country can easily go to war with another country that is attacking it.” So don’t come around full circle and start referring back to the original verses I posted as if you weren’t the one derailing the argument in the first place.
I know the context of the verses I posted. The first one is a verse within a song that Moses and his people sung to rejoice in the defeat of Pharaoh’s men after they escaped Egypt. The second verse is a closing to a prayer that Paul wrote within the epistle to the Romans.
The fact of the matter is that the Bible doesn’t say “can a man be a man of peace by being a man of war,” nor does it explain such a thing. Same with “A peaceful country can easily go to war with another country that is attacking it.” Besides, we’re talking about God here, not man. YOU need to stop adding your own shit into the Bible in order to fit your needs.
Seriously guys, the contradictions and problems come in the translations. In the original languages (Hebrew, Aramaic, and Koine Greek) the meaning of each word in the Bible was very clear and could not be confused. When translated into English, these words become less clear and easier to take out of context.
For instance, many times in the Bible, it says to "Fear the Lord." This creates a lot of controversy as many people will argue that a God who is loving would not ask us to be afraid of him.
When taken back to the original language, the Greek word for this is YIRAH which actually means a respectful recognition of power. The best way we can translate in the English to display this word is "fear" but not meaning in the most commonly used context of "being afraid."
This shows how many people misunderstand concepts in the Bible. You cannot just take two English verses in the Bible and say that they contradict without looking at the original meanings, historical timeline, and original context that the Bible was written in. Before you make such a statement, study using theological methods extensively and you will see that the Bible has no contradictions.
I think it is difficult to take textual contradictions between the "books" of the bible as definitions, context, historical timing, etc. are different and make it hard to objectively challenge subjective writings.
GE 1:11-12, 26-27 Trees were created before man was created.
GE 2:4-9 Man was created before trees were created.
Genesis 2:5-6 "When no bush of the field[a] was yet in the land[b] and no small plant of the field had yet sprung up—for the Lord God had not caused it to rain on the land, and there was no man to work the ground, and a mist[c] was going up from the land and was watering the whole face of the ground—" This does not say that plants have not been created. Why were there no bushes or plant thats have sprung up? It was because there had been no rain, nor man to work the field.
This is not a contradiction.
GE 1:20-21, 26-27 Birds were created before man was created.
GE 2:7, 19 Man was created before birds were created.
GE 1:24-27 Animals were created before man was created.
GE 2:7, 19 Man was created before animals were created.
There are two answers to this:
1) Genesis 2:19a says, "Now out of the ground the Lord God had formed[f] every beast of the field and every bird of the heavens and brought them to the man to see what he would call them." The "had formed" is a perfect tense, which means that at that moment, the animals had already been formed.
2) Genesis 2:19 is specifically for the Garden. Genesis 2:18 says, "Then the Lord God said, 'It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him a helper fit for[e] him.'" It could be that God made all the animals again.
I favor the first.
This is not a contradiction.
GE 1:26-27 Man and woman were created at the same time.
GE 2:7, 21-22 Man was created first, woman sometime later.
Genesis 1 is a summation. Genesis 2 is an elaboration of Genesis 1. This is not a contradiction.
There are no contradictions in the Bible. Think critically.
I don't like this one as a contradiction. I don't think there is an order specified in GE 2. It talks about what God already did, and how it was always designed for humans. And for created woman later, in GE 1 it explains that God created both male and female in the same day, not with the same exact action.
Titus 1:2 - "in hope of eternal life, which God, who never lies, promised before the ages began"
Deuteronomy 7:9-10 - "Know therefore that the Lord your God is God, the faithful God who keeps covenant and steadfast love with those who love him and keep his commandments, to a thousand generations, and repays to their face those who hate him, by destroying them. He will not be slack with one who hates him. He will repay him to his face."
Exodus 34:6 - "The Lord passed before him and proclaimed, 'The Lord, the Lord, a God merciful and gracious, slow to anger, and abounding in steadfast love and faithfulness,'"
2 Thessalonians 2:11-12 - "Therefore God sends them a strong delusion, so that they may believe what is false, in order that all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness."
2 Thessalonians is a passage about those who have fallen prey to the lawless one (i.e. the beast; a.k.a. the "anti-Christ"). God is faithful to His people. 2 Thessalonians is talking about those who are not His people.
There is no contradiction here. There are no contradictions in the Bible.
I’m sorry; I thought it was pretty clear when it said "who never lies" that God does not lie. I didn't know there were exceptions to that, thanks for clarifying it.
At any rate, it should have read “God sometimes lies,” at least then it wouldn’t be… a lie.
There is a philosophy in the Bible called compatibilism. In this, the source of the deterministic universe is kept from guilt, though people are not. Most metaphysical philosophers are compatibilistic, claiming that determinism is true and genuine freedom of action is too, retaining moral accountability intact. For the theistic determinist-compatibilist, which is what the Bible claims, God can will something to happen, but because He is so righteous, He is innocent of this very thing. Genesis 50:20 explains this; God sent Joseph, but He sent him through the evil actions of his brothers. Likewise, Isaiah 10:5-12 tells of Assyria being the rod of God's anger, but in His purposing of certain things, things that are sinful indeed, He retains innocence of these things and the people whom He wills to sin have moral responsibility retained. Thus, transferring this same type of thought to God sending them a strong delusion: God did not deceive, in that He did the action, though He willed it, but indeed His action was sent. Moral accountability is retained for the people, and God is kept innocent of wrongdoing; God did not lie.
In this, the source of the deterministic universe is kept from guilt, though people are not
I’ve never heard of anything more sinister.
The universe is deterministic, we are a part of the universe, therefore we are bound by these deterministic properties as well… and yet we are still responsible?
Assuming you have “indisputable proof (scripture)” that says we have free will, how does this negate the fact that we are wholly influenced by our environment, culture, heritage, time, laws of nature and a handful of supernatural influences (for those that believe in them) like Gods calling, God’s plan, fate, or destiny?
God can will something to happen, but because He is so righteous, He is innocent of this very thing.
Wow, so you’re saying that if I were as righteous as the big guy I could do anything I want? AND get away with it?!!
The universe is deterministic, we are a part of the universe, therefore we are bound by these deterministic properties as well… and yet we are still responsible?
You should read some metaphysics books.
Assuming you have “indisputable proof (scripture)” that says we have free will, how does this negate the fact that we are wholly influenced by our environment, culture, heritage, time, laws of nature and a handful of supernatural influences (for those that believe in them) like Gods calling, God’s plan, fate, or destiny?
We have genuine freedom of action, which means that we choose freely and uninhibitedly. The issue, though, is that God determines our desires, which determine our choices.
Wow, so you’re saying that if I were as righteous as the big guy I could do anything I want? AND get away with it?!!
You're looking at it distortedly. God is so righteous that what He wills evil, though He does not do it, and in this willing He brings about a greater good than we can imagine.
I’ve read quite a bit actually. I’m well aware of what determinism entails; I am one.
Regardless, what does my knowledge of metaphysics have to do with my rationale? You’re making an appeal to accomplishment.
Iff the universe is deterministic, and iff we are a part of the universe, than we are deterministic. Iff this is true, and outcomes are determined, then we do not have the capacity to be responsible for those outcomes. The only thing that shows contrary to this would be occurrences that happen as a result of free will. Only then could we be considered responsible for those and only those occurrences… only problem is there is little to no evidence that suggests we even have a free will.
BTW. Determinism may deal with metaphysics, but free will does not. It deals with metaethics, if it were metaphysical it could be causally determined all the way down to the electrical signals of the brain. I’m assuming that you believe that if we do have free will, it is unbound by constraints, hence “free.”
Even so, determinism is by its nature incompatible with the concept of free will. In terms of compatibility, most modern day thinkers refer to compatibility regarding indeterminism (randomness) and see that it still leaves no room for free will. A random occurrence is not our own doing, we are no more made responsible from random occurrences than we are from determinism. So if you claim that most philosophers are compatibilists, I have to ask in what time period you’re referring to. Compatibalism regarding free will, as in what early philosophers suggested? Or regarding indeterminsm, the more modern philosophy?
We have genuine freedom of action, which means that we choose freely and uninhibitedly. The issue, though, is that God determines our desires, which determine our choices.
Yea… I didn’t think you would have any scriptural evidence… just unsubstantiated dogma.
Either we choose and act freely and uninhibited OR our desires, choices, and (in your case) God determines our action. You can’t have both, it is incompatible with the concept of free will, I promise you.
Regarding the Bible, the most you could try to do is make a case for predeterminism such as fate, or destiny, but you’ll have to ditch the whole concept of free will either way. The Bible doesn’t teach free will, and there’s no evidence or rationale to prove otherwise.
You're looking at it distortedly. God is so righteous that what He wills evil, though He does not do it, and in this willing He brings about a greater good than we can imagine.
Am I? Or am I putting it into a perspective that you’re having trouble coming to terms with?
If God wills something, and in so doing that thing happens, it:
1. was the cause of God’s will (which is to say: it would not have happened had he otherwise not willed it)
so we are not responsible for it.
2. was the cause of a deterministic or indeterministic process (which is to say: it would have happened whether God willed it to or not) so we are not responsible for it.
3. Was the cause of our proposed free will (which is to say it was a result of our will alone; free from divine or deterministic causation) and we are responsible for it.
There is a reason why “God can will something to happen, but because He is so righteous, He is innocent of this very thing” does not make any sense, aside from you blatantly making it up. The responsible party of a things occurrence is the party that causes it to happen. The only way you can take the responsibility away from God is to say that God wasn’t responsible (duh) and it was instead the result of free will. It cannot be both; you cannot say “God willed my free will to act.” Apart from being asinine, it goes against the very concept of free will.
But in the end that doesn’t matter because free will isn’t a concept taught in the bible, predeterminism is. Free will was a philosophical concept since before the Judeo-Christian era, and later adopted by Christian philosophers like Saint Thomas Aquinas who we owe a lot to regarding Christian philosophy.
Going back to what was said earlier: If God caused people to have a delusion... caused it... then he is responsible for the occurrence of that delusion. Whether you would like him to be absolved of responsibility or not is irrelevent to both logic and the bible (considering you just made that shit up)
Feel free to retract any of your previous statements
So if you claim that most philosophers are compatibilists, I have to ask in what time period you’re referring to. Compatibalism regarding free will, as in what early philosophers suggested?
Modern/contemporary: people who live today.
Yea… I didn’t think you would have any scriptural evidence… just unsubstantiated dogma.
No, I actually have Biblical backing.
Either we choose and act freely and uninhibited OR our desires, choices, and (in your case) God determines our action. You can’t have both, it is incompatible with the concept of free will, I promise you.
This does not follow. We can have both.
1. was the cause of God’s will (which is to say: it would not have happened had he otherwise not willed it)
so we are not responsible for it.
This does not follow either. Unsubstantiated claim.
2. was the cause of a deterministic or indeterministic process (which is to say: it would have happened whether God willed it to or not) so we are not responsible for it.
Same as before: it does not follow and it is unsubstantiated.
There is a reason why “God can will something to happen, but because He is so righteous, He is innocent of this very thing” does not make any sense, aside from you blatantly making it up. The responsible party of a things occurrence is the party that causes it to happen. The only way you can take the responsibility away from God is to say that God wasn’t responsible (duh) and it was instead the result of free will. It cannot be both; you cannot say “God willed my free will to act.” Apart from being asinine, it goes against the very concept of free will.
No. You could say that un God's determinism of something, He only does good. You really should read some more into metaphysics, and especially the philosophy of religion. This point has been addressed by many philosophers over the course of philosophical history.
Ok, you mind listing a few? I’m having trouble believing that “Most metaphysical philosophers are compatibilistic” instead of Adequate Determinists.
You might be correct in saying ‘most Christian philosophers’ are compatibalistic, but certainly not ‘most philosophers’ in general; that is not a factual claim.
No, I actually have Biblical backing.
…
Ok?
I’m waiting
“Either we choose and act freely and uninhibited OR our desires, choices, and (in your case) God determines our action. You can’t have both, it is incompatible with the concept of free will, I promise you.”
This does not follow. We can have both.”
You want your cake and you want to eat it too huh?
This is very easy to comprehend. Just take one step at a time, you’ll get there.
If our desires, choices, or God “determines” our actions or decisions… then it is not us that determines them. In other words, we are not making a free will decision at that point; our wills are being determined by causal factors.
A free will requires that we make a choice or action that is completely devoid of any outside influence or cause (which contemporary philosophy on the matter now realizes is virtually impossible), otherwise that influence or cause would determine the will, not our self.
You keep saying that I need to read more on metaphysics; however, this is VERY basic and easily understandable stuff within the millennium long free will vs determinism debate. Either we choose (free will) or it is determined (negates free will), but not both.
”1. was the cause of God’s will (which is to say: it would not have happened had he otherwise not willed it)
so we are not responsible for it.”
This does not follow either. Unsubstantiated claim.
”2. was the cause of a deterministic or indeterministic process (which is to say: it would have happened whether God willed it to or not) so we are not responsible for it.”
Same as before: it does not follow and it is unsubstantiated.
Unsubstantiated claim? It’s a premise. The proof is in your own understanding of the terms being used and how they relate to one another.
I can see logic is not your strong suit.
I said “If God wills something, and in so doing that thing happens, it:”
And then followed with the premises; it’s a hypothetical.
You said yourself that theistic compatibilism is what is taught in the bible. I assume you:
1. Believe in the bible.
2. Believe in the will.
3. Believe in God’s will
4. Believe in free will.
5. Believe in determinism.
6. Believe in determinism as being compatible with free will.
7. Believe in accountability
Please let me know if I missed anything.
Now, I’m going to attempt to walk you through this. It’s not hard, but please try to keep up.
When something happens, the occurrence was a result of one of three things as per theistic compatiblism.
Gods will. Determinism. Free will.
If it were God’s will that caused the thing to happen, then that means if God didn’t will it, it either wouldn’t have happened or it would have happened by some other means. Correct?
If determinism caused the thing to happen, then that means if determinism didn’t cause it, it either wouldn’t have happened or it would have happened by some other means. Correct?
If it were free will that caused the thing to happen, then that means if free will didn’t cause it, it either wouldn’t have happened or it would have happened by some other means. Correct?
If a thing’s occurrence has a cause, then that cause is the reason behind that thing’s occurrence. Correct?
In other words, had there not been a cause (God, determinism, free will) that thing would not have happened. Correct?
If that cause is the reason behind that thing’s occurrence, and had there not been any cause that thing would not have happened, then that cause is accountable for that things occurrence. Correct?
So regardless of the words your trying to interject into Gods mouth by making shit up. If God wills something into existence or is the initial cause of a thing, he is accountable.
Are we to assume that god should not be held accountable for creation? He willed it, but if he is so righteous that he is excused from any guilt of wrong doing, why isn’t he also excused from any praise for good doing?
It’s because he’s not excused. Because you made that shit up.
No. You could say that un God's determinism of something, He only does good.
And ignore all the bad things that happen on account of his determination? Or are you saying that if God wills something that we consider evil, we ought to consider it good instead?
Like… really dude? Are you high?
You really should read some more into metaphysics, and especially the philosophy of religion.
Again, what does my presumed lack of knowledge in metaphysics have to do with my argument and rationale? You are committing a typical appeal to accomplishment fallacy. Saying that I need to read more doesn’t refute my argument.
This point has been addressed by many philosophers over the course of philosophical history.
What point? this point “You could say that un God's determinism of something, He only does good,” or this one "God can will something to happen, but because He is so righteous, He is innocent of this very thing?"
Can you point me in the right direction as to which lecture from what philosopher I should be looking for, there are literally thousands.
I’m really interested to know, because I assumed you pulled it out of a hat.
If it were God’s will that caused the thing to happen, then that means if God didn’t will it, it either wouldn’t have happened or it would have happened by some other means. Correct?
Sure
If determinism caused the thing to happen, then that means if determinism didn’t cause it, it either wouldn’t have happened or it would have happened by some other means. Correct?
Sure.
If it were free will that caused the thing to happen, then that means if free will didn’t cause it, it either wouldn’t have happened or it would have happened by some other means. Correct?
Sure.
If a thing’s occurrence has a cause, then that cause is the reason behind that thing’s occurrence. Correct?
Not necessarily.
In other words, had there not been a cause (God, determinism, free will) that thing would not have happened. Correct?
This is not the same thing as the sentence before. I agree with this, but not before.
If that cause is the reason behind that thing’s occurrence, and had there not been any cause that thing would not have happened, then that cause is accountable for that things occurrence. Correct?
False. Simply because something has caused something or if something is the reason behind something happening, it does not mean that the cause of reason is accountable.
So regardless of the words your trying to interject into Gods mouth by making shit up. If God wills something into existence or is the initial cause of a thing, he is accountable.
Not at all.
Are we to assume that god should not be held accountable for creation? He willed it, but if he is so righteous that he is excused from any guilt of wrong doing, why isn’t he also excused from any praise for good doing?
Not necessarily.
It’s because he’s not excused. Because you made that shit up.
I think you're misunderstanding causes. You really need to read through some more metaphysics books.
Again, what does my presumed lack of knowledge in metaphysics have to do with my argument and rationale? You are committing a typical appeal to accomplishment fallacy. Saying that I need to read more doesn’t refute my argument.
Its not intended to. I'm telling you that you need to do so before you actually talk with me.
And ignore all the bad things that happen on account of his determination? Or are you saying that if God wills something that we consider evil, we ought to consider it good instead?
Bad things and evil things happen because of God's will, sure, but this does not mean that God is morally responsible for them. He does good in them only. God is so righteous that He can will evil, and in this will He can be seen as innocent from these evil acts, having only done good.
”If a thing’s occurrence has a cause, then that cause is the reason behind that thing’s occurrence. Correct?”
Not necessarily.
Ok so please tell me what exactly it is that you have a problem with in this?
You said you agree with “had there not been a cause (God, determinism, free will) that thing would not have happened.”
Perhaps reason is the wrong word?
Would ‘result’ be a better one?
If a thing’s occurrence has a cause, then that cause resulted in that thing’s occurrence.
Does that make more sense given that “result” doesn’t imply some sort of ‘motive’ or ‘objective’ like the word “reason” can?
False. Simply because something has caused something or if something is the reason behind something happening, it does not mean that the cause of reason is accountable.
Ok. Accountability can suggest a sort of liability, such as in the phrase “held accountable for.” Some things such as inanimate objects obviously cannot be accountable in that sense yet they cause many things. Is this your contention?
So do you have an issue with the word accountable?
Would “dependent” suffice then?
If a cause resulted in a thing’s occurrence, and had there not been any cause that thing would not have happened, then that cause is dependent for that things occurrence
God’s will, for example, is dependent for the creation of the universe.
Do you concur?
Do you have an issue with me suggesting that God be accountable for His will?
Perhaps we will just have to disagree on that matter.
I think you're misunderstanding causes.
And I think you’re misunderstanding or forgetting nature of causation in regards to the will.
You really need to read through some more metaphysics books.
You do realize that metaphysics is a very BROAD range of philosophical inferences… and even sectioning off causation doesn’t help in narrowing down that broad spectrum… so what is it exactly, in your superior wisdom, that you think I have to study on?
Please tell me you also realize that “nothing is set in stone” on this matter. One person’s philosophy on some metaphysical matter might differ from another’s entirely. Mine and yours for example. What matters isn’t which popular theory or philosophy agrees with our own, what matters is the rationale used to explain such a philosophy.
So even if I didn’t read extensively on metaphysical or epistemological philosophies, as long as a person has sound rationale to explain their reasoning, it doesn’t fucking matter what Plato or Kant suggested on the matter.
Again, you are committing a typical appeal to accomplishment. You keep telling me that I need to read more, as if to say “if only you knew what I knew you would agree with my point of view.”
I can plainly see that you’re argumentative skills are quite lacking, but I’m not going to suggest that you take a course in basic critical thinking… I’m going to point out the flaws in your weak arguments.
Bad things and evil things happen because of God's will, sure, but this does not mean that God is morally responsible for them. He does good in them only. God is so righteous that He can will evil, and in this will He can be seen as innocent from these evil acts, having only done good.
Ok. So you really haven’t given me anything to substantiate this bold claim, no rationale other than “God is righteous” and no evidence, scriptural or otherwise, so I’m going to assume you have none (rationale nor reason).
I’ve also attempted to assist you in seeing the absurdity in this claim which proved difficult, as expected.
So, considering the only reasoning you give is “god is so righteous,” I assume there is some disconnect with your thinking in that God is not responsible for his will and the occurrences that happen as a result of it and therefore should not be held accountable for it. Either that or you think that because “God is so righteous” you can pick and choose what pertains to him and what doesn’t; what God is and what God isn’t.
If a thing’s occurrence has a cause, then that cause resulted in that thing’s occurrence.
Sure.
If a cause resulted in a thing’s occurrence, and had there not been any cause that thing would not have happened, then that cause is dependent for that things occurrence
False. Dependent isn't even the right word.
Again, you are committing a typical appeal to accomplishment. You keep telling me that I need to read more, as if to say “if only you knew what I knew you would agree with my point of view.”
I don't think you understand what an appeal to accomplishment is. Logical fallacies are only such when you use some irrelevant point to conclude something; in this case, saying that you needing to read more is grounds for concluding you false. This is not what I'm doing, as I said. You're suppressing evidence, namely that I said I'm not arguing this point, but I'm simply saying you need to read more.
So, considering the only reasoning you give is “god is so righteous,” I assume there is some disconnect with your thinking in that God is not responsible for his will and the occurrences that happen as a result of it and therefore should not be held accountable for it. Either that or you think that because “God is so righteous” you can pick and choose what pertains to him and what doesn’t; what God is and what God isn’t.
I don't think you understand my argument. You might want to go back and re-read it. You're arguing for a point that has been nullified; it has been so for a long time now.
God's will is only good. In this perfect and righteous will, He can will something which is evil, but not be seen as the accountable party. Think of it in a necessary and sufficient way: God can will something that has a necessary condition of evil. God's will is (1) for good, and not for evil, and God is only doing good, but (2) God wills something, a higher good, which necessarily requires evil. God is not morally accountable, having not caused anything, though He willed for it to happen. He didn't cause anything, or produce anything, evil, though He guaranteed it and willed for it to happen.
As I've said: you really need to go do your homework before talking with me. I actually know what I'm talking about, though you might not think it.
“If a cause resulted in a thing’s occurrence, and had there not been any cause that thing would not have happened, then that cause is dependent for that things occurrence”
False. Dependent isn't even the right word
As stated:“When something happens, the occurrence was a result of one of three things as per theistic compatiblism. Gods will. Determinism. Free will.”
You agree that a cause (god’s will, determinism, free will) results in a things occurrence
You agree that without that cause that thing would not occur.
But you do not agree that that describes a dependency on said cause for the things occurrence?
Like I said, we will probably just have to disagree on the matter. I think you understand, just are unwilling to admit it. You certainly haven’t given me any counter which accurately illustrates a contrary basis to which you place your rationale in order to convince me otherwise.
I don't think you understand what an appeal to accomplishment is.
I provided a link when I first mentioned it for your convenience, and I’m sure you’ve googled it once or twice by now. But here it is again Appeal to Accomplishment
I'm simply saying you need to read more.
In response to what?
And to what purpose?
I don't think you understand my argument.
I’m well aware of what you originally posited.
Your claims:
“God can will something to happen, but because He is so righteous, He is innocent of this very thing.”
“in His purposing of certain things, things that are sinful indeed, He retains innocence of these things and the people whom He wills to sin have moral responsibility retained”
“God did not deceive, in that He did the action, though He willed it, but indeed His action was sent. Moral accountability is retained for the people, and God is kept innocent of wrongdoing”
My contentions, as I mentioned are thus:
1. If it were God’s will that caused the thing (a delusion) to happen, then that means if God didn’t will it, it either wouldn’t have happened or it would have happened by some other means. (you concur)
2. If a thing’s occurrence has a cause, then that cause resulted in that thing’s occurrence. (you concur)
3. had there not been a cause (God, determinism, free will) that thing would not have happened. (you concur)
4. If a cause resulted in a thing’s occurrence, and had there not been any cause that thing would not have happened, then that cause is dependent for that things occurrence (you disagreed)
remains unresolved.
You're arguing for a point that has been nullified; it has been so for a long time now.
What point is that?
and how have you nullified it?
God's will is only good.
Unsubstantiated. This has not been proven or demonstrated.
However, I will concur for the sake of argument.
In this perfect and righteous will, He can will something which is evil, but not be seen as the accountable party.
If the evil is necessitated through god’s will in order to cause a desired outcome, then I disagree. This would also conflict with your first premise.
If by will you mean “desire” or “wish,” without causation, I can concur.
God can will something that has a necessary condition of evil.
I think “necessary condition” could use some clarity, but I think I concur with this. This may also conflict with your first premise depending on what you mean.
God's will is (1) for good, and not for evil, and God is only doing good
I concur that in God’s will, he is “for” or “intends” good and not evil. However, despite his good intentions, I disagree that he is actually willing or “doing” as you say, good if the thing he is willing or “doing” results in an action that is actually evil.
God wills something, a higher good, which necessarily requires evil
God is not morally accountable, having not caused anything, though He willed for it to happen.
If God’s will results in a thing’s occurrence, then God’s will was the cause of that thing’s occurrence. If God simply desired a particular outcome and was in no way interfering in the deterministic properties or free will leading to an outcome of events, then God of course is unaccountable having been a bystander instead of a mover.
This does not apply to “God sends them a strong delusion, so that they may believe what is false.”
“God sends” implies a direct influence to the outcome of events.
He didn't cause anything, or produce anything, evil, though He guaranteed it and willed for it to happen.
If it was a desire in him only and he did not interfere in the deterministic properties or free will of the individuals pertaining to the outcome of events, then indeed: “God didn’t cause anything, or produce anything evil.” God would be a spectator in this case.
If the outcome of events was guaranteed to occur and necessitated upon God’s will in order to happen, then I disagree.
I actually know what I'm talking about, though you might not think it.
Your (lack of sound) logic and reasoning skills prove otherwise.
I provided a link when I first mentioned it for your convenience, and I’m sure you’ve googled it once or twice by now. But here it is again Appeal to Accomplishment
And as I said, you don't understand it.
I think “necessary condition” could use some clarity, but I think I concur with this. This may also conflict with your first premise depending on what you mean.
I concur that in God’s will, he is “for” or “intends” good and not evil. However, despite his good intentions, I disagree that he is actually willing or “doing” as you say, good if the thing he is willing or “doing” results in an action that is actually evil.
As I said, you don't understand the argument. This is contradictory. You might want to rethink what "necessary condition" is and what "resulting in evil" can also mean.
Suppose that God wants everyone to experience evil so that they can experience righteousness in a more freeing and thankful way. Evil is a necessary condition for God's higher good: salvation. Thus, God determines the higher good, which necessitates evil as a condition that must be there in order for the higher good to be fulfilled. This is a very realistic and easy idea to understand. It's not hard. You're out of your league.
You can think of tons of other examples: God wants his people to see Him destroy evil, which necessitates evil. God wants some to understand the wrath of God, which necessitates justice, which necessitates evil. It's not hard.
These are all possibilities. They show that God can determine something, but not be responsible for evil. In fact, the latter one can be modified to say that God wants some people to be held morally accountable. You're out of your league, son. For one, you need to read into this more. And second, you're trying to argue against a person who actually knows what he is talking about. And third, you're arguing against a being that is supremely higher than you in all ways. You're trying to fight a forest fire with a garden hose.
”I provided a link when I first mentioned it for your convenience, and I’m sure you’ve googled it once or twice by now. But here it is again Appeal to Accomplishment” - Coldfire
And as I said, you don't understand it. - Lolzors
I will accept this as a possibility.
Whether or not it is true would rely on the answers to the two questions you ignored:
”I'm simply saying you need to read more.” –Lolzors
In response to what?
And to what purpose? - Coldfire
As I said, you don't understand the argument. This is contradictory. You might want to rethink what "necessary condition" is and what "resulting in evil" can also mean.
Your assertions were not hard to understand, however they either do not follow logically or they weren’t articulated in a manner which would accurately establish your argument. Inability to clearly construct a sound argument should not be considered the fault of your opponent.
It is also not up to me to discern what you mean by “necessary condition,” as I stated, I am willing to concur based on my own understanding of the words however it could use some clarity on your part before I can rightly say that I’m willing to fully agree with that premise.
As for my use in the word “result,” I am using it in congruence with my premise that “If a thing’s occurrence has a cause, then that cause resulted in that thing’s occurrence,” which you agreed with. It is your prerogative to retract any of your previous statements at any time.
Suppose that God wants everyone to experience evil so that they can experience righteousness in a more freeing and thankful way.
Ok. I understand that negativity often leads to better appreciation of positivity; however, God “wanting” everyone to experience something is not the same as God “forcing” them to experience something where force means a deliberate interference with free will.
Evil is a necessary condition for God's higher good: salvation.
In the case you presented, Evil would be a necessary condition for an appreciation (thankful way) of righteousness.
Also, this would not “result in evil” but be contingent upon evil having already existed.
However, I will try to work with you and take this as a standalone premise, if I may.
”evil is a necessary condition for God’s higher good: salvation”
I’m going to assume that “salvation” is God’s higher good.
Considering salvation requires us to be saved from the penalty of our sin (eternal torment in hell).
I will concur that evil is a necessary condition for salvation. For without the evil, there would be no reason to be saved.
God determines the higher good, which necessitates evil as a condition that must be there in order for the higher good to be fulfilled.
I concur. As stated, salvation would have no purpose without a necessity of sin or evil.
My issue with this is that it interferes with free will. (Which I don’t actually believe in anyway, but regardless)
God sets a higher good, and makes it a necessity to have evil to attain this higher good. We are in no way free of that condition.
The problem with this is accountability. How can we rightly say we are responsible for our salvation when it necessitates a condition of evil? I cannot be without evil in order to attain salvation, because without evil salvation would not be required. And if salvation be required, so would evil; I am no longer free at that point to exist without evil in order to attain salvation.
God wants his people to see Him destroy evil, which necessitates evil.
I concur. If evil did not exist, God wouldn’t be able to destroy it.
Again, this does not “result in evil” in congruence with the premise I proposed regarding causation; it is instead contingent upon evil having already existed.
God wants some to understand the wrath of God, which necessitates justice, which necessitates evil.
“Wrath of god” could use some clarity. To my understanding wrath means anger, but this may not describe your version of God.
Considering you relate it to justice I will assume you mean “judgment” of God for the sake of argument unless you care to clarify.
I do concur that justice necessitates a condition of injustice, though one could argue if evil actually corresponds with this considering subjectivity.
For the sake of argument I will concur however. Justice can necessitate evil as a condition.
They show that God can determine something, but not be responsible for evil.
If in gods determining, he sets a bar which makes evil a necessity, then God is solely responsible. We are incapable of free will regarding those limitations and conditions, we are not to blame.
In fact, the latter one can be modified to say that God wants some people to be held morally accountable.
This is why I originally said that I’ve never heard of anything more sinister regarding the philosophy you propose.
If we are not free from the condition of evil which God placed, then we cannot be held responsible for doing evil. It is unjust and cruel.
So, considering the examples you gave to illustrate what you mean by evil as a necessary condition. I will have to retract my original agreement in the premise you proposed stating “God can will something with a necessary condition of evil.” I cannot agree with this if I agree with your first premise in that “God can only will good.”
If in God’s willing, he wills something that necessitates evil, that thing is not solely good.
you're trying to argue against a person who actually knows what he is talking about.
Again, your (lack of sound) logic and reasoning skills prove otherwise.
you're arguing against a being that is supremely higher than you in all ways.
That’s a pretty bold claim; and one could argue that I’m not actually arguing against God but your own personal version of what you want God to be.
Regardless, you’re not putting up much of a challenge in His defense.
At any rate, this is beginning to bore me. I see no end in sight, nor any indication that you will develop sound reasoning skills any time soon.
That, and I feel that if I continue to spank you you’ll start lashing out and condemning me to hell…
That, and I feel that if I continue to spank you you’ll start lashing out and condemning me to hell…
This is humorous. You might want to look into what a necessary condition is, what free will is, and what a will is, because right now your position is contradictory, as I said, and filled with ignorance.
Come back when you can actually keep up. I'm starting to agree with this one preacher who said that it should be illegal for people to only take one philosophy class: it makes them think they know what they are talking about.
right now your position is contradictory, as I said, and filled with ignorance.
I think it would be entertaining to see you attempt to prove this.
Come back when you can actually keep up.
I've taken the liberty to look through your arguments and debates on your profile page, I expected to see similar lack of reasoning ability and critical thinking skills typical of what you've been displaying here, but not to the extent I discovered.
I feel bad now. Like I've been picking on you. I hope it didn't come off that way; I just assumed you knew this was a site with a lot of grown folks engaging in grown up discussions.
I think it would be entertaining to see you attempt to prove this.
I already told you how it was contradictory and you ignored it.
I've taken the liberty to look through your arguments and debates on your profile page, I expected to see similar lack of reasoning ability and critical thinking skills typical of what you've been displaying here, but not to the extent I discovered.
This is humorous. Usually the people who claim this are just ignorant and are not capable of understanding how wrong they are here. Think of it this way: people who are not understood are either too dumb for people to understand, incapable of communicating efficiently, or too smart for people to understand. I used normal philosophy language and you didn't understand, so it's not language. My philosophy professors think I'm quite smart, so it's not the first one. Thus, it's the last one, but you don't realize it. Am I forgetting any other possibilities? You're just another new atheist who has gone on the internet, having taken only intro to philosophy, thinking you know everything. You'll grow up eventually.
I feel bad now. Like I've been picking on you. I hope it didn't come off that way; I just assumed you knew this was a site with a lot of grown folks engaging in grown up discussions.
”I think “necessary condition” could use some clarity, but I think I concur with this. This may also conflict with your first premise depending on what you mean.
I concur that in God’s will, he is “for” or “intends” good and not evil. However, despite his good intentions, I disagree that he is actually willing or “doing” as you say, good if the thing he is willing or “doing” results in an action that is actually evil.
And then claimed it was contradictory. The reasoning you gave was “You might want to rethink what "necessary condition" is and what "resulting in evil" can also mean.”
If you think that that is telling me “how it was contradictory” your sorely mistaken.
And to say I ignored it? I THOROUGHLY explained why that is not sufficient grounds to base your claim.
I also replied thoroughly to the entirety of the rest of your post. If anything I am the one with unanswered questions.
I used normal philosophy language and you didn't understand, so it's not language.
Just because you USE terms that show up frequently in philosophical study, doesn’t mean that you yourself understand them or know how to properly apply them in practice. It also doesn’t negate the fact that words have different meanings in different situations or areas of study. Same goes for religious terminology.
I have spotted several instances where you incorrectly use terms. The same ones you say I lack understanding in. The only difference is that I’ve taken the courtesy to show you how you’re wrong. You on the other hand think that “you don’t understand” is sufficient enough to refute me and support your own position at the same time. It’s clearly a sign that your inexperienced in the art of debate.
so it's not language.
Hugely arguable. I think this may be the very thing that is causing you difficulty; that, as well as clear lack of knowledge regarding argumentation. You assert things without conclusion or basis, you don’t articulate them in a manner that is clear and concise to portray your position, you jump around arguing semantics and such, you don’t structure your “arguments” into any coherent method, your “arguments” are actually just statements that you seem to expect people to believe based on virtue of you having said them alone. You refute your opponent’s premises and arguments without ANY rational backing or explanation to your refutation… it’s a mess really.
My philosophy professors think I'm quite smart, so it's not the first one.
Purely anecdotal. Whether or not you have a grasp on this stuff would require a lot more than hearsay if you intend to prove it.
But this may very well be true lolzors, so I’m not going to doubt it at all. The problem is that what they think and what you prove to be over and over and over are two very different things. You know the old adage I’m sure “actions speak louder than words.”
It may be that you have strong potential; but whether or not that is actualized would require a reduction of pride and willingness to learn from mistakes.
You're just another new atheist who has gone on the internet, having taken only intro to philosophy, thinking you know everything.
Do not presume to know who I am. I’ve been in this scene for several years, studied extensively in history, philosophy, theology, critical thought, psychology, and sociology, I’ve engaged in countless debates both online and off. I started debating even before I went on a journey of discovery that eventually led to me renounced my faith in Christianity. And no, I am not an atheist, lol. I just don’t believe in your version of God. One doesn’t have to be an atheist to understand an atheist rationale; one doesn’t have to be an atheist to not believe in Christianity… or your rendition of it anyway.
This is condescending.
Oh and
“you really need to go do your homework before talking with me”
Still very laughable. If you can't tell, I stopped even arguing with you a long time ago: when you couldn't understand that God could be both of war and peace, I knew talking with you was hopeless.
Also, telling you that you need to go research more before talking with me is not condescending. It's advice, as I've said multiple times now; whether you take it or not is your choice.
LE 25:37, PS 15:1, 5 It is wrong to lend money at interest.
Leviticus 25:37 "You shall not lend him your money at interest, nor give him your food for profit."
Psalm 15:5 - "who does not put out his money at interest"
The idea in these two passages is that one is not to give out money to others expecting one to give more back. What they are saying is evil is a type of money collector from those mob movies: he gives money to the person, who then owes him more money in return.
MT 25:27, LK 19:23-27 It is wrong to lend money without interest.
These are parables of the same idea: what God has given to us, we are to use for His glory, not to keep it hidden and un-availed.
This is not a contradiction. There are no contradictions in the Bible.
Hebrews 9:23 - " Thus it was necessary for the copies of the heavenly things to be purified with these rites, but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these."
The things of Old were reflections of the true things, namely Christ. Old Testament law was insufficient for the taking away of sins.
There is no contradiction here. There are none in the Bible.
God's ways are higher than our ways. James 1:20 says, "for the anger of man does not produce the righteousness of God." The idea is that God can righteously hate and be angry with people, though man cannot, for the most part, do the same.
Another point is this: God does love everyone at least in a certain sense, and in the sense to which Jesus is referring here. Jesus did not resist his enemies even to the point of dying on the cross, but once judgement comes, then He will righteousness destroy them.
God's ways are higher than our ways. He can hate and be angry with people without causing injustice. That'd the entire idea: we are not Him, and He is better than us, being able to have righteous anger and hatred.
The Amalekite is lying... haha, and Saul took his own life.
Which means the passage is a contradiction. It is basically insignificant, but the Amalekite can't be telling the truth because it contradicts another passage in the Bible. You only know he is lying because it contradicts the other passage. But, it would make sense for the guy to lie, so it doesn't really change how the Bible should be perceived.
You use the possibility of contradiction to determine what the truth of something might be.
And, you used it to determine that the Amalekite was lying. How did you determine he was lying other than the fact that he made a contradictory statement?
He said something that contradicts what someone else said. Thats not a contradiction. A person saying ~X is not contradictory to X. Its potential, in that if A person is right, then it would be a contradiction. But it nevertheless is not. We wouldn't consider an author to have contradicted himself if he wrote: "I, Antonio, rode a bike at 10:00am on May 12, 2014, but Fred said, 'Antonio did not ride a bike at 10:00am on May 12, 2014.'" This is just pitiful if you have to pull on this to find a contradiction in the Bible.
He said something that contradicts what someone else said. Thats not a contradiction.
Dude, no wonder you think there are no contradictions in the Bible, you don't know what a contradiction is.
A person saying ~X is not contradictory to X.
False.
Its potential, in that if A person is right, then it would be a contradiction.
The Bible never says he is lying. Therefore, his statement, which is a portion of the Bible is a contradiction. Since it is a contradiction, he must be lying or telling it incorrectly.
We wouldn't consider an author to have contradicted himself if he wrote: "I, Antonio, rode a bike at 10:00am on May 12, 2014, but Fred said, 'Antonia did not ride a bike at 10:00am on May 12, 2014.'"
And, I said that we can't really hold it against the Bible.
This is just pitiful if you have to pull on this to find a contradiction in the Bible.
2 Kings 8:26 - "Ahaziah was twenty-two years old when he began to reign, and he reigned one year in Jerusalem. His mother's name was Athaliah, the granddaughter of Omri."
2 Chronicles 22:2 - "Ahaziah was twenty-two years old when he began to reign, and he reigned one year in Jerusalem. His mother's name was Athaliah, the granddaughter of Omri."
Now, I will admit that the Hebrew says 42. This does not prove the Bible as wrong, though. Why? Because inerrancy is only argued for in the originals, not the copies: we don't say all translations to English are inherent, and we don't say that all translations in that same language (i.e. copies) are the inherent. The Septuagint has it recorded correctly, and consistently, as 22. In Hebrew, number recording is very easy to copy down incorrectly, on accident.
If Hebrews is a book included in the Bible, and within that book there is an inconsistency with what was written previously. Regardless of that inconsistency being known as a typo... it is still a "contradiction in the bible,” is it not?
You may argue that it isn't contradictory to what was in original text, or isn't contradictory to God's Word, but as long as the Bible is printed with that inconsistency, it is a "contradiction in the bible" as are many more of these that you so easily dodge and slide by through your adding and taking away of words to fit your needs.
Which brings me to another issue: why is it that if the bible doesn’t have any contradictions as you claim, it requires special knowledge and "spiritual guidance" to see that? Why is it that to the laymen, it is rather apparent that there are contradictions until someone like you comes along to show them the "truth" to the mysterious hidden meaning that God saw fit to bless only yourself with?
If Hebrews is a book included in the Bible, and within that book there is an inconsistency with what was written previously. Regardless of that inconsistency being known as a typo... it is still a "contradiction in the bible,” is it not?
No, its not a contradiction. The Bible is not what we have in translation, and it is not the copies of the originals. The Bible is the original, God-inspired, written Word of God.
Which brings me to another issue: why is it that if the bible doesn’t have any contradictions as you claim, it requires special knowledge and "spiritual guidance" to see that? Why is it that to the laymen, it is rather apparent that there are contradictions until someone like you comes along to show them the "truth" to the mysterious hidden meaning that God saw fit to bless only yourself with?
The natural man cannot understand the things of the spirit, for they are folly to him. Indeed, he is unable.
No, it’s not a contradiction. The Bible is not what we have in translation, and it is not the copies of the originals. The Bible is the original, God-inspired, written Word of God.
Again. Trying to make shit up to fit your needs.
You’re trying to say that The Bible is not a collection of books but instead the literal word of God? But then refute your own claim by admitting that it’s the “written word of god.”
The Bible is indeed what we have in translation; it is a collection of scripture. From Latin we get “biblia sacra” which literally translates to “holy books.” You can’t just change the definition of a known word to fit your needs.
Like I said you can say that it “isn't contradictory to God's Word,” but as long as the Bible shows that inconsistency, it is a "contradiction in the bible.”
God’s word and the written word of God are not one in the same. The moment pen touched paper it became fallible because it was of Man, who is fallible. For decades, it wasn’t even written but passed by word of mouth. The books that make up the New Testament, for example, weren’t written until between 70-200 years after the events it describes took place. It’s only understandable that the Bible have miss-copied portions, mistranslations, misinterpretations, omissions, additions, revisions, etc. that lead to inconsistencies and contradictions. Man is fallible.
You seem to be dead set on proving this otherwise apparent fact wrong by interjecting your own words into God’s own mouth. You THINK he is giving you guidance in your diction, but in actuality what you're doing is adding in and changing things around in order to fit what you want to be true versus what actually is.
The natural man cannot understand the things of the spirit, for they are folly to him. Indeed, he is unable.
Something you’re having trouble coming to terms with I presume?
Is there a difference to you with contradictions and flaws. The Bible definitely has some flaws. Do you think translation flaws count as contradictions?
I don’t think that a translation flaw is a contradiction in itself, but as an inconsistency within the bible, if it contradicts another principle in the bible I would consider it a contradicting translation or miss-copy. As long as it remains a contradiction of what it was presumably supposed to say, it is not untrue to say the bible has contradiction(s).
I am unaware of anyone revising these miss-translations in the foreseeable future, regardless of an assumed consensus within the church community that they are indeed miss-copies; one has to wonder why that is.
It really doesn’t even matter though; I would argue that even if the Bible was translated perfectly, it would still show contradicting principles.
II Samuel 6:23 "Therefore Michal the daughter of Saul had no child unto the day of her death."
vs.
II Samuel 21:8 "But the king took the two sons of Rizpah . . . and the five sons of Michal the daughter of Saul."
There are two ways in this. The same as I said before: mis-copy, since there are Hebrew copies that have "Merab" along with the Septuagint, which also has "Merab."
That being said, there is a really easy way to understand this: Michal had 5 kids before the point in the story in which it was said that she had no children. If I have kids, and then my wife dies, not allowing me to procreate any more, one could say at the moment: "And lolzors93 had no child to the day of her death." Its perfectly consistent.
Yes. any claim can be made perfectly consistent when you add or take away words to fit your needs.
If it is a typo, until that typo is corrected, the statement "the bible has contradiction(s)" is a true statement.
Whether you want to argue "not god’s word" is irrelevant.
Furthermore; if it is true that it is a miss-copy of original text. How certain are you that your special insight that God gave you to explain away inconsistencies isn't just your own desire to make sense of something that is clearly fraught with human error?
You've already displayed a lack of understanding in standard logic. I'm not going to dumb it down for you.
"if it is true that it is a miss-copy of original text. How certain are you that your special insight that God gave you to explain away inconsistencies isn't just your own desire to make sense of something that is clearly fraught with human error?"