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There is no need to go to that extreme. But if you were comparing the two extremes of a) a world with zero religion, and the opposite extreme of b) a world with one mandatory religion or else persecution and death, then I would opt for A. I can think of no worse way to live than forced to believe in and worship a fantasy or else be tortured and killed.
Nope. I started with there's no reason to go to that extreme. What I said was if I had to choose either all in or all out I'd choose all out.
You on the other hand are exactly the type of tyrant I warned against. You're the one who says there's one thing to believe and anything other than total submission to it warrants torture and death. I'm not going to drink your Koolaid.
LOL, you just said that...... "I'm the one who says there's one thing to believe and anything other than total submission to it warrants torture and death."
What a hideous liar you are. I have never even remotely suggested that anyone should ever be forced to believe anything. It is your progressive ilk who force people to bow to your political correct madness or be sued or thrown in jail for not follwing your mandates.
If there was ever a more controlling religion than Islam, it would be your man made humanistic religion whereby we are all forced to live by your dictates.
We are forced to allow boys in girls bathrooms!
We are forced to change our marriage laws.
We are forced to live our lives unprotected because big brother Democrats tell us we can not have conceiled weapons.
You try to take our hunting rifles if they hold more than seven rounds.
You try to force us to cater events that go against our faith.
You try to sue our churches if they do not allow Gay sunday school teachers.
You force us to buy your insanely high premiums and deductible Obamacare.
I could go on and on you total hypocrite! Your party is the extremist control freaks of this world.
You equate anyone NOT conservative, NOT voting Republican, NOT Christian as part of one big group to be scorned and damned. No one is buying that you're benevolent nor that you're getting trampled by those who disagree with you.
If someone told you that they believe unicorns are the ultimate cause of the universe, I imagine you wouldn't be too keen to accept that without debate. Your argument is invalid.
If someone told me they believe unicorns were the ultimate cause of the universe, I would waste exactly ZERO seconds debating them. They have every right to believe in anything, and i woud respect their right to believe what they want, but i would not waste my time debating them.
The bigots on this site spend unbelievable amounts of time ridiculing the Christian faith and showing no respect for other's beliefs.
I guess the Christian faith is not some fairy tale that they would simply ignore!
No, I have spent very very little time debating Muslims. They have every right to their beliefs until they kill innocent people. We will all answer to our lives when we die.
IT AMAZES ME HOW LITTLE DEMOCRATS AND THOSE ON THE LEFT SPEAK OUT AGAINST ISLAM ND MUSLIM NATIONS THAT HATE WOMEN AND GAYS.
I don't care what you believe in, as long as it is of no detriment to other human beings. I care what people believe in when it does cause grief to others. Homophobia is advocated in Leviticus, so I have an issue with Christianity as a result. Regardless of the fact that I think it's bonkers, I don't mind if you believe in a God.
It's the same with Islam. I don't mind if they believe in Allah, but if Allah advocates halal slaughter, which is horrible by the way, or the ill treatment of women, I have a problem with it. Although I do agree with the idea of cultural relativism somewhat, I can't sit back and say "Oh well, if thats what they do, that's what they do" when people or animals are suffering as a result.
I would totally agree with your right to speak out against any religion today that tried to kill Gays such as Islam does in many nations! Funny how I hear so little from Democrats and those on the Left when it comes to Islam. Why is that? They truly do kill Gays in other Muslim nations and Hillary takes money from them for her Clinton foundation! Talk about hypocritical phonies!
You bigots spend most of your time ridiculing and judging Christians, and do you know why? Because Christians want our states to have the right's to create their own marriage laws. Christians and conservatives hate it when the controlling extremists try to FORCE EVERYONE TO THINK AS THEY THINK!
Christians love gays as much as anyone but they will not have their faith twisted by Gay activists to this Political correct extremism. Gay activists have sued Chiurches trying to force them to have Gay sunday school teachers. These are the reasons why Christians must constantly fight off the Left trying to twist out faith to their PC extremisn.
Now we have the Left forcing every public school to allow boys in girl's bathrooms! Gee I wonder why Christians and conservatives speak out!
So tell me with all your lies and rhetoric, how are Christians hurting Gays? What you are doing is pathetic! Pure bigoted rhetoric and deception.
Well, "exterminate" is a strong word. It will never "go away", there will always be people who can't follow facts and will look to one god or another. When it is reduced to small groups of "believers", I believe we could achieve world peace. As long as we have Christians against Islam, Islam against Jews, Protestants against Catholics, "God" against "Allah", we will NEVER have peace ... as centuries have shown!
"Men never commit evil so fully and joyfully as when they do it for religious convictions." Blaise Pascal
"Religion is an insult to human dignity. With or without it, you have good people doing good things, and evil people doing evil things, but for good people to do evil things, that takes religion." Steven Weinberg (Truth x2)!
Religion isn't just about people who can't follow the facts. God isn't in or out of the facts. How do you know God doesn't exist? You don't know. Your far away from the truth, boy.
How do you know your god does exist? Other than your own experiences, feelings or your bible, what evidence do you have? I exclude those three because anyone from any religion can claim their god exists because of their experiences, feelings and religious documents. To prove your god, the Christian god exists, you need evidence. This is why Atheists do not believe, because there is no evidence to support the existence of ANY god.
How do YOU know God DOES exist? You don't know. You have been convinced of it from your childhood, convinced that verses in the Bible "prove it". You "follow the facts" you have been taught to follow. you accept the "truths" you have been convinced are "true".
I don't ridicule you for that. I don't ridicule a Catholic, (But I can't figure out how somebody can worship Christ and NOT be a "Christian"!) a Muslim, a Hindu, etc. I just don't find "God" in or out of the facts. I just wish religions would stop fighting about WHICH GOD, or "version of God", is the ONLY one, and JUST BELIEVE AS THEY WISH, and let others do the same! Then, and ONLY then, will NO ONE be far from the truth .... and we can ALL follow our own "facts"!
With respect I disagree. It's not a matter of not being able to "follow facts", some people genuinely need to feel there is something more out there, others need to feel there is a punishment/reward after death dependent on the life you lead on earth. That's fine, there's no problem with that.
The problem occurs when you march in extremism. But that is something that ALL beliefs and non-beliefs can have. In that sense, we are screwed. We won't get world peace if we can't accept the differences in others. You can't tell me that some Atheists don't hate Muslims simply because they are Muslim, or that some Christians don't hate the LGBT community. As long as we as a people have groups that value their differences as being GREATER than someone elses differences, we will always have discord. It's not an issue with just religion, religion is just a tool. It's an issue with the wielder of that tool, with people.
With respect, I agree with most of what you said. I'm simply pointing out that MOST wars over the centuries have had religious connotations, have been fought in the name of one "god" or another. Masses have been imprisoned or beheaded for not giving most of their income to the church or what was considered "blasphemy".
CONTROL is what many churches have been about .... it pays well. Many independent churches are about what they should be, too many are like "T-Vangelicals" (for instance), it's all about the money and the control, the agenda. THAT is "toolage" also.
I do agree with that as well. But in many wars it was mostly over land with religion used as the excuse. Land and resources (ie, gold and riches). It's easier, I think, to want to wage a war and getting people to fight in it if you use the excuse that you are trying to convert them to your religion. It's harder to get people to fight for your cause if you just tell them you want all the money and land. At least with the first excuse you seem pious and righteous even if you bastardize the religion you follow to suite your needs.
Yes, the bigots who ridicule religion are the same corrupt people who support killing viable unborn babies when voting for Democrats.
If there was ever a score card on the atrocities from differing groups today (not a thousand years ago you total fools), the extremist Democrat party would be at the top of the list. Christians help the needy, they fight to save the lives of unborn babies, they help crisis pregnancy centers with funds to help pregnant mothers keep their babies.
True Christians are all about love and what do these progressives contantly do?
They ridicule and Judge Christians.
Do you know why they judge Christians? Because Christians speak to moral values and the value of innocent lives. Those on the Left hate hearing anything of their faults and their atrocities against humanity. They must judge those who shine a light on their selfish immoral ways.
You do realize in this post you have displayed every thing you accuse...I guess Democrats/progressives...of doing, right? You both judge and ridicule in one paragraph alone. Seriously, it's kind of flabbergasting and amusing at the same time.
Speaking to the hypocrisy and judgemental views of a Democrat party is defending our faith. We have every right to call out liars and deceievers when they lie about Christianity.
Christianity is not trying to force the Left to be Christians. We are not telling states that they must allow boys in girls bathrooms. We are not forcing every state to change their marriage laws that have been in effect for thousands of years.
These judgemental hypocrites on the Left LIE!
I have no problem with them if they speak the truth of what Christianity stands for, and if they quit lying about how Christians are trying to force them to believe. We are not trying to force them to do anything. We fight for the lives of viable late term babies that Democrats support killing. Kill us for having some humanity.
We fight to keep our religious freedoms to have the right's to our beliefs and the rights to not cater things that go aganst our faith.
I wish this were amusing but the sad fact is that it is pathetic what is going on in this nation. The Democrat party is transforming America into a Political correct socialist european nation. It's truly sick!
YOU have NEVER seen ME ridicule religion! I just disagree with it (them), while people like YOU ridicule ME!.
I would remind you that not all Christian are conservatives. I would BET that there are MORE Democratic (liberal) Christians THAN conservative. The huge African American and Hispanic populations, as a whole, are FAR more devoutly religious than the majority of "whites"! Incidentally, you couldn't FIND a more "liberal" person than the Bible portrays Jesus to be!
How can YOU judge liberals when WE are the ones who want to care for the poor and those who can't care for themselves? When WE are the ones who want everyone to have health care whether they can afford it OR NOT! A few "liberal passages" from the Bible: Mark 10:21-25; Mathew 19:23-24; Luke 6:24; James 5:1 ....WHO is the "hypocrite"??? WHO has the selfish ways??
Do you even have any idea how hypocritical and ludicrous you sound when you say Liberals care for the poor?
YOU INHUMaN HYPOCRITES SUPPORT KILLING POOR VIABLE BABIES! Do you call that compassion? You are beyond belief and why I ban you.
There is no debating a person in such denial of their inhumanity while they claim to be the compassionate ones.
Republicans care about ALL PEOPLE. They care about our most innocent viable late term babies even weeks from birth. We have the compassion for all people.
We care about poor women who can not afford their pregnancy. We help support them with crisis pregnancy centers!
We care for those poor children after they are born. YOU ARE A LIAR AS ARE MOST ALL LIBERALS.
People like Democrats want to help the poor people who will vote for them. Democrats have not met a viable unborn Baby they would not support killing.
This is why I am on this debate site. To shine a light on your lies and your total inhumanity to mankind.
For any Christian to support killing children that God says he knows in the womb, is only fooling himself. God is not stupid.
Not a bad idea, really. As it is irrefutably clear that religion and belief in false and invented gods has caused much death and war and violence over the history of the planet.
The little bit of "good" that is has done could have been done by secular social groups or philanthropic organizations.
Religion WILL be eradicated, do not worry. But I am afraid this will take time. The decline of it is beginning already, as people have been leaving the church in this country for over a decade. Europe and China are already largely atheist, and this is a good start and is hopefully indicative if the future trend.
One day religion will be looked upon as being as credible and useful as alchemy or astrology or reading tarot cards. In fact, many of us already know that it belongs in that dark corner with the rest of the superstitious clap-trap.
Science flies us to the moon. Religion flies us into skyscrapers!
You had asked where Cain got his wife. Geneologies in Genesis state the main line of "the football" through time Adam to Seth to Noah to Abraham etc. It's clear on how old they were when these sons were born, but it also mentions other sons and daughters were born also. Adam and Eve had around 50 children. Each contributer probably similar, and we understand the exponential growth from there.
Cain and Abel were adults when Cain was sent to wander. And Cain could have taken a bride with him. Or populations could have grown out to Nod after Cain was exiled.
There was also Nephilim who took wives and populated, so it may have been one of their daughters.
Ooohhh gross! The sibling thing, but gene pools were purer then
Law came condemning the practice came late through Moses, so
multiplying was the 1st agenda, then after the flood as well for re-population. Which again, the Bible says Nephilim existed after the flood also.
But I would think evolution would have the same dynamics, unless many men emerged simultaneously with many females.
Was it divine intervention from God to say through Moses, this practice has now come to its end of practical usefulness and its time to cease that cultural norm?
How without any lab or blood work, how did Moses know that the mixing of genes had reached a point that continuing to mix would cause birth defects?
What reason did Moses have for stating that in the law. He wasn't a studied physician. He went from being raised a playboy in Pharoahs house to a tending herds. Till one day, he sent was sent back to bring in the Exodus.
The Bible even says Moses was timid of speech, so Aaron helped him speak, and also says that Moses was the most humble of men. The Bible says Moses wasn't determined by his own self evaluation of knowledge, or superiority.
I don't think anyone was wandering into Moses private place of dictating God's Word and giving their suggestions, and even if they did, how would they have known anyway that this common life practce had come to the point that it needed to cease?
Religion is evil. It makes people think they are self-justified by how they think or act, fooling themselves into ignoring the fact that they cannot justify themselves or they would not be dying. It's not up to us to exterminate religion. God Himself will put an end to religion, all the religious people will be in Hell and those who have believed on and received the Savior will be in Heaven, and religion will be held only by sinners in Hell as those alive forever more in Heaven will probably forget the religious individuals.
For the prophesy below to have come true, God would have had to have fulfilled
2 OTHER Bible Prophesies,
1 -to scatter them to all the Nations, and 2 - then bring the Jews back from all the Nations He had scattered them, which are also other detailed prophesied! And bringing them back was fullfilled after ww2. .. ... Thousands of years after these prophesies!
Coincidence? Or is this inaccurate?
Was Terrorism a Biblical Prophesy?
Was the Middle East Crisis a Biblical Prophesy?
How many points can we accumulate for -
Bible Truth or Bible Lie?
It almost seems if it weren't for Israel life wouldn't be quite as disturbed. How is it that 4000 years of these people who really didn't bring much on themselves historically, are the matter that brings TREMBLING (OR TERROR!!!) To the door of EVERY Nation? Has Israel been a burden to lift? When lifting Israel
have those Nations face Trembling, and being cut into pieces?
How did the Bible know Nations would lift Israel? What Nations back then lifted other Nations?
Accurate prophesy?
Behold, I will make Jerusalem a cup of TREMBLING unto all the people round about, when they shall be in the siege both against Judah and against Jerusalem. And in that day will I make Jerusalem a burdensome stone for all people: all that burden themselves with it shall be cut in pieces, though all the people of the earth be gathered together against it… For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of
the people shall not be cut off from the city. Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle
If you speculate vaguely about enough things then eventually something will happen that seems to fulfill them. In reality, that event would have happened regardless.
Not that this is responsive to my original comments anyways...
It's frustrating to see people decieved by choice.
God says in thousands of years BC, that He was going to scatter Israel among all the Nations.
He tells them, they will feel chased and threatened scattered like driven leaves. Its astounding that even scattered they where a still a Nation, a people without a land, the wandering Jew, for generations, centuries even Millenials. And yet they didn't stop being a people. OK, you can write that one off as religion unites. But still that's a long time to keep that up.
Another astounding fact is they were told they would be like scattered leaves. Driven even when no one was chasing. Look at the troubles they have faced. Driven leaves, looking back, feeling chased as in the Holocaust. They lived looking over their shoulder every day like they were hunted, so that's actually another scripture fulfilled.
Scattered and gathered. I'm not talking about moving 1 or 2 families, He said He would scatter and regater a Nation, and Jews had ZERO control over these things and outcomes.
God moved a whole Nation, not just once, but twice!
Once to scatter, and once to gather, and that was prophesied thousands of years ago, and it occurred with foreknowledge of no foreseeable near future, yet still prophesied 1000's of years prior to Israel become a Nation.
He moved a Nation twice and He said He was going to.
Then He prophesied that their land Israel would flourish, so in the middle of absolute depravity and chaos, while no one can grow tomatoes, Israel has grape vines and is an Oasis in the Desert. .
Then He prophesied they would be surrounded by enemies, and those who help them, Israel would be a cup of trembling, which terror! God prophesied the suicide bombers!
So what is more powerful, moving a Nation twice or a cell mutating?
.
Ezekiel 12:15
"So they will know that I am the LORD when I scatter them among the nations and spread them among the countries.
The prophet goes on to say:
Ezek 37:21-23 … Thus saith the Lord God; Behold, I will take the children of Israel from among the heathen, whither they be gone, and will gather them on every side, and bring them into their own land. And I will make them one nation in the land upon the mountains of Israel; and one king shall be king unto them all; and they shall no more be two nations, neither shall they be divided into two kingdoms anymore at all.
Exactly what I said above. Exterminate is much too strong a word. I believe, in another hundred years, probably less, the problem will MOSTLY go away. There will always be a few that need a crutch to rely on but, I think even THAT will change to a less "church controlled" and more "thought controlled" practice. I have NO problem with anyone "believing" that there is help. It's just that this (these) book(s) of mythology are written by MAN, from man's imagination.
A couple on here would say I am the voice of the devil. No, I don't believe in "it", or follow "it". That is another phony entity.
Well, maybe not exactly. I think extermination is impractical, not necessarily undesirable.
I do not share your optimism that religion will mostly go away (I assume that is what you mean by "the problem"). There does not seem to be adequate evidence to that effect, at the very least.
If they think you're the voice of the devil, you're probably doing something right. I usually just get an ambiguous "evil". Have to work my way up to that extra "d", I guess. ;)
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Why is religion a problem in your eyes OP? you didn't exactly give any priming in the question. if that was your goal, that is fine, but you also didn't make it clear what all you consider to be religion. in my mind, anything that is of dubious science, is technically religion, which would include your namesake of Veganism. probably would include feminism, and when it really came down to it, it would flip a magical invalidation switch on any philosophy that wasn't rationalism or maybe nihilism. Probably would get rid of LGBTQA-FDHTRDFBSFGAER too. So....get used to the fact that some people believe in a sky father and man the fuck up.
I would never get behind a movement that wanted to ban religion because im in favor of freedom of religion as outlined in the first amendment.
If you want to be religious you should feel free to be that.
However i disagree with the alternate stance on this debate that "religion is good"
Religion isnt good. Its utter nonsense and by and large produces more harm than good. The worst result of religion is fundamentalists who kill people or revoke peoples rights and subjugate them. But even people who are good people are still ultimately believing nonsense. Believing false things is never a good thing even if it causes them to be charitable.
We shouldnt ban religion but we should be very outspoken against it and get people to reject it of their own free and independent will.
But to me leading people away from religion is the noble thing to do. To me Christianity is nothing more than a cancer on society. The worst thing it does is cause people to justify their racist, sexist, or homophobic tendencies. If they can make it sound like it comes from god then who can question them?
But even at its most beneign it still causes people to forgo a rational view of reality in favor of a comforting illusion.
I look at it this way,
If i were in a vat of goo that simulated paradise for me. And in my mind im on a beautiful beach with a nice martini and a blunt. My girl is there with me and wild cats and dogs roam the island were on. We have a jetski and an air plane and full internet and we have everything we could ever want. Its my perfectly catered paradise. But its all in my mind.
Even thought i might be confortable in the vat. Even though im in paradise in the vat. It isnt real. And i would want someone to take it upon themselves to remove me from the vat. Even if the reality outside the vat is full of war, torture, pain, disease, and death. At least its REAL. I would always choose a painful reality over a comforting delusion. Thats what i imagine im doing by persuading people away from religion. Im taking them out of the vat.
Noble? You haven't proven there isn't a God. So now your taking responsibility for the Eternal Death of another person.
You know if I'm wrong I had a nice life of whatever I made of it. And there is nothing else.
But if you wrong you and you teach others to be wrong, then you have taken someone else's chance for Eternal Life and gave them a share of Eternal Death with you
Noble? You haven't proven there isn't a God. So now your taking responsibility for the Eternal Death of another person.
True. but nobody has ever proven there is one. And it seems to me that nobody ever will. The evidence against religious claims is astronomical. To the point where im willing to conclude that god almost certainly doesnt exist. So i reject the idea that im playing with peoples eternal lives. From my perspective im merely informing people who possess a misguided worldview.
You know if I'm wrong I had a nice life of whatever I made of it. And there is nothing else.
But if you wrong you and you teach others to be wrong, then you have taken someone else's chance for Eternal Life and gave them a share of Eternal Death with you
Pascals Wager is a terrible argument.
Summarized what youre basically saying is:
If I am wrong then its not a big deal. Nothing negative happens because i believed in god.
But if YOU are wrong then you are risking going to hell and taking everyone you converted with you.
Well this argument ignores several important things:
1. it ignores every other religion on earth. If youre wrong it isnt that theres no harm no foul, what if youre wrong BUT the hindus were right? Then you suffer that religions punishment. What if youre wrong BUT the muslims were right? Then youre subject to their rules. And theres 3000 other religions that may be right if not yours.
So i could turn around and posit the same argument to you. What if the muslims are right? Should you believe in allah just in case?
2. It assumes god is an idiot. Basically pascals wager is a threat of hell. Its supposed to make me feel like being an atheist gives me nothing to gain and a lot to lose. And if i just try to follow christianity just to cover my ass i might be saved. But that assumes that god doesnt see right through what im doing. Wouldnt god see that im just faking being a christian to avoid hell? I believe you yourself said that belief just because of fear of hell isnt true belief and isnt valid.
3. It assumes that there is nothing to gain by being an atheist and nothing to lose by being a christian. By being a christian (in my worldview) you are forfeiting a rational view of reality. You are forfeiting many sundays worth of time that could be spent on doing anything else but worshipping a god that isnt there. Basically any amount of time of brainpower spent on religious endeavors is a waste to me.
As for the upsides of atheism its pretty much the opposite of all these things. You live without fear of god or fear of hell. You see reality more clearly. Youre free to investigate things that may be against your religion. Youre free to sculpt your own meaning of life. Youre free to use your sundays as you please. Ect.
And those are just the main 3. But yeah its a really flawed argument
I said if your wrong and you lead others against Salvation you will be accountable. If I'm wrong and teaching others against Salvation then I also will be accountable.
What you should realize after our discussions that God is very logical, it rings true because of profound Wisdom God has throughout His Word.
Take the Resurrection, I can show you throughout the Bible a logical progression of reason that if true makes perfect sense.
I can without even trying or realizing use several scriptures from all different chapters and Books of the Bible. And all of them fit together.
Do you know how hard it was to memorize all that or bring them to my memory? I don't know I ever memorized any scriptures.
1 - the Holly Spirit brings them to memory
2 - their written in my heart and mind
3 - They make such sense that I don't have to memorize words, the idea behind it makes all the sense of logic and reasoning.
Wheras the Quran is scrambled eggs of Hebrew text and some New Testament. And you have to memorize it because it doesn't make sense. Like Jesus born from a Virgin sat up and proclaimed Mohammad, that makes as much sense as your maximally great unicorn!
"im willing to conclude that god almost certainly doesnt exist."
Your "choosing" to be an atheist, you are rejecting Light because there is something you won't give, and you are rejecting Jesus.
You don't want to know, so you reject sense and accept non-sense.
I'm not sure if you listened to the videos with the atheist, start there and investigate. But honestly, I think you already know.
De-Nile is a river in Egypt, His Word is Living Water that sounds like rushing waters.
His Word and Spirit will help you get through the road ahead if you follow Him. And I can refer some of the faithful in your area to walk with you if you are called and respond to Him.
I don't think you need proof. Because, I think you already know.
And I think God answered you through the Internet, and even if you don't understand fully it all makes sense.
You don't need to know how God did everything. Do you know everything about electricity to turn on the lights?
With God all things are possible. His arm is not short that He can't save. We can't transform ourselves, we can't sever Flesh from Spirit, Jesus did that for us, and sends His Spirit so we can walk in Light and overcome with Him in us.
1 John 4:4
You are from God, little children, and have overcome them; because greater is He who is in you than he who is in the world.
I go back to my own experience becoming a Christian. I was wildly rebellious, and I wasn't interested in God or anything much about God.
I can remember another thought when I was in maybe 2nd grade, probably around time of 1st Communion. I looked at the Cross hanging in the front of the room, and I asked in my thoughts Why?
It made ZERO sense to me. Why did He have to do that, be whipped, a crown of thorns, a spear to His side, and nailed onto a cross. It was a quick passing thought again. I asked it 1ce in my head and never thought about it again.
That was probably a second time I heard God talking to me, or putting something in me. A seed.
And I remember 1 more thought - Confirmation a 5th or 6th grade ritual.So being in Catholic School, that was standard. I remember grudgingly memorizing Catholic answers, just in case the Bishop asked you a question. And it would be embarrassing to be at Confirmation and not answer correctly, and I'd miss my Confirmation party!
But the real internal thought I had was,
is this for real? Is God's Spirit going to make a difference today in this ritual? Will I see anything or feel anything? The day came and went, I felt nothing and it didn't matter, and I got money at my party.
So, I asked these 3 questions in my head, at 3 different times, I remember these thoughts more than I remember the events, I actually don't even remember the party, or the money. I remember the thought though.
I didn't pursue these answers, they were passing thoughts that then I hardly noticed, and I certainly didn't look for an answer.
I was already becoming my environment, and I was already being pulled into the darkness that was defining me.
So I had 3 break through thoughts.
First when I was 5 asking me about truth. In my house we didn't talk about God. And if I ask my granddaughter, who will be 5 in Nov., what she's thinking she probably wouldnt answer, "I'm thinking about truth Gi Gi." And, she is more likely to have that kind of a thought than I would have at 5 in my environment!
Where no one asked me my thoughts, or cared about my thoughts. Discipline consisted of what got on someones nerves, and who won the fight after. Not at all in character building.
We fought day and night everyday, violently! My mom was at work every day after school till midnight. My dad
was angry we never talked about thoughts or feelings ever. To this day thoughts and feelings are topics that start wars in my family!
My brothers are 60 and fights still break out like fist fights. Currently a few aren't talking. I had 4 older brothers and I was treated more like a dog than a girl. It was pretty violent.
I was kicked out at 12, came back by Monday. Then again at 14, didnt go to school much that year. By 15, I left and lived with friends here and there, and for a while with one of my brothers, and that was crazy and violent too.
But life was cool, my friends woke me me with partying, and we loved pot and speed. And had a great time. I didn't feel like I needed anything different. I was living my way, and it didn't make me feel like searching for anything. So I wasn't "needy" or searching.
My brother and sister in-law partied also, 3 kids in the house didn't matter, we took care of them. But still it wasn't good or healthy.
Then God moved me to a place I could hear. It was a strong deliberate hand of God, and when He called me I said yes.
So those 3 thoughts, the first time on the porch with the paint and the about truth, the 2nd time asking a question about the Cross, the 3rd time about His Spirit and if He really comes in.
It's strange that these three thoughts are actually THE Foundation of the faith I found, without searching.
So 3 thoughts, with 3 answers that take one from darkness to light. Not walls of Jericho, or Noah's Arc, or Creation, or anything. Just these 3 questions. Seeds, that no one sowed, except God in the private passing thoughts of my own mind.
And He eventually answered.
Honestly I was more likely to smoke in the bathroom or fire up a joint in class then follow the Catholic religion.
I remember arguing with Nuns over sex and love, and I'd frustrate them.
By 9th grade Catholic School was a waste of money, and my life was my own, out of control. But God moved me like a piece on a chess board at His time.
When I was about 19 or 20, and He answered those 3 questions as if adjusting a lense.
I went to a Bible study, and I was actually the only one at work that was not invited to go.
The person leading it thought I wouldn't go anyway, and if I did I would just be argumentative and disruptive. And may cause some others he invited to be closed, or distracted because of me and my resistance.
Well, I was the only one who went, not invited, I invited myself.
I went, no one else did.
And I heard it all, and it made sense, what intrigued me most was a relationship he had with God seemed real, and that was weird and interesting. He said this funky sinners prayer, and we burned my tarot cards.
But didn't feel anything at first.
Just kinda figuring out if I was really doing anything with that, or figuring out how do you hear or know God. So I partied a few more days.
Then I felt like He broke through in a moment and took my hand and walked me away from a friend with a pound of pot on the table, we had smoked I was stoned high but only for a few minutes, and then I wasn't high.
I wasn't hanging out with those Christians, or at a church. It was just me and God, a friend and a pound of weed. Happy day I never saw a whole pound of weed before.
But He broke through and said, Come On, this isn't your way any more, and I had to leave abruptly. It was a RIGHT NOW minute.
We say yes, and be willing to give it all, and He will meet you in the darkness and break through with light.
John 1:5
4 In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. 5 The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it.
Matthew 10: 37-39
37 “He who loves father or mother more than Me is not worthy of Me; and he who loves son or daughter more than Me is not worthy of Me. 38 And he who does not take his cross and follow after Me is not worthy of Me. 39 He who has found his life will lose it, and he who has lost his life for My sake will find it.
Those questions and more were answered in a moment, questions I never thought of beyond the thought. And they each grew in moments, like a lense was adjusted. So three questions I didn't think about again, or were even mindful that I even asked.
I remembered and saw the answers. Not from a teaching, I still hadn't gone to any churches, and wasn't hanging with the Christians, I was barely reading the Bible yet at this point.
Yet in a moment of clarity I understood Truth, The Cross, and the Resurection, in a moment with just an adjustment of the lense.
I didn't read in Romans or Galations, and the Catholic Church certainly didn't teach this. The Cross, He died to Sever Flesh and sin from Spirit,He rose to raise us up out of the darknesd, into a walk in His Spirit. And the 1st scripture I ever loved was My sheep hear my voice and another they simply will not follow!
Truth, Cross, and Resurection. Three things given by understanding by God simply adjusting the lense!
Luke 10 - I never read it, I never read the Bible, just what I had to in Catichism, and they taught Catholocism, not really from the Bible
Luke 10
21 At that very time He rejoiced greatly in the Holy Spirit, and said,
“I praise You, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that You have hidden these things from the wise and intelligent and have revealed them to infants. Yes, Father, for this way was well-pleasing in Your sight. 22 All things have been handed over to Me by My Father, and no one knows who the Son is except the Father, and who the Father is except the Son, and anyone to whom the Son wills to reveal Him.”
23 Turning to the disciples, He said privately, “Blessed are the eyes which see the things you see,
24 for I say to you, that many prophets and kings wished to see the things which you see, and did not see them, and to hear the things which you hear, and did not hear them.”
Your "choosing" to be an atheist, you are rejecting Light because there is something you won't give, and you are rejecting Jesus.
Did not choose to be an atheist. It was not a conscious decision. I was protestant till i was 16. Then after i began reading the bible critically and doing research online and listening to opposing viewpoints i began to doubt my faith and i became convinced there probably isnt a god and the christian religion almost certainly isnt true. It was an unconscious process occuring over a long period of time.
You don't want to know, so you reject sense and accept non-sense.
If there is a god i do want to know. If there isnt a god i do want to know. And what sense am i "rejecting"? I reject the doctrine of sin because it makes no sense. I reject the concept of a god beyond space and time because that makes no sense. I reject the doctrine of a god who sacrifices himself to himself then comes back from the dead and flies to heaven because that makes absolutely no sense. The world flooding makes no sense. God giving a shit about who you can and cant stick ur dick in makes no sense.
Your religion makes no sense. So i reject that nonsense in favor of a rational worldview that doesnt require me to assume and have faith that there is an invisible man in the sky who loves me but will torture me forever for not believing in his invisibleness.
I'm not sure if you listened to the videos with the atheist, start there and investigate. But honestly, I think you already know.
I havent only because im familiar with his work. ive read part of cold case christianity and watched the entire series i linked you which is a read through of the entire book. I didnt find any of it persuasive. However if youd like to maybe narrow those videos down to a few specific points youd like me to address im more than happy to do that. i just dont wanna sit through too much raw video.
De-Nile is a river in Egypt, His Word is Living Water that sounds like rushing waters.
His Word and Spirit will help you get through the road ahead if you follow Him. And I can refer some of the faithful in your
area to walk with you if you are called and respond to Him.
But i dont need help getting through the road ahead. Well, i do but i dont need an invisible being in the sky. I have actual family and friends who i can depend on. Other than that i can rely on my own faculties to get through life. Havent needed a god for years and ive been just fine. in fact ive probably had more good fortune than many self professing christians who believe yet continue to struggle. But mysterious ways and all that right?
I don't think you need proof. Because, I think you already know.
Lmao. No i actually do need proof. Because as of yet god is a claim that has yet to be proven to me. Same with most of the bibles claims. And no i dont already know. i dont profess to know anything pertaining to god. i dont know if he exists or not however i dont believe he does. Because hes unproven
And I think God answered you through the Internet, and even if you don't understand fully it all makes sense.
Wow that was arrogant. God answered me through the internet. Well thats funny because the internet was probably the one key factor in making me an atheist. Being exposed to debate sites like this as well as all the research i could ever want was definitely impactful in shaking me of my faith. Wierd how god would reveal himself through the internet which seems for the most part hostile to the idea of his existence.
You don't need to know how God did everything. Do you know everything about electricity to turn on the lights?
No but the difference is i could easily find that information. I could study and figure out every single last detail of how electricity goes from the transformers down the road to the wires, to my home, to the switches and lights. My dad is an electrician and could teach me all of that. I could even wire the electricity to a light that i build myself from scratch.
But with god you cant do that. You cant study how he did anything because theres nothing to observe or study. How did god make the earth? By what process? We can never know. We can never even prove it happened. Its nothing like electricity because at least electricity is real and we can investigate it deeply. I dont question electricity because its backed up by observable science.
I go back to my own experience becoming a Christian. I was wildly rebellious, and I wasn't interested in God or anything much about God.
I can remember another thought when I was in maybe 2nd grade, probably around time of 1st Communion. I looked at the Cross hanging in the front of the room, and I asked in my thoughts Why?
It made ZERO sense to me. Why did He have to do that, be whipped, a crown of thorns, a spear to His side, and nailed onto a cross.
Im gonna stop you there:
1) you were in 2nd grade. keep that in perspective. Was your mind nearly developed enough to comprehend such questions? Did you possess nearly enough knowledge about theology, history, science, ect to make those considerations? No. Youre just a kid daydreaming at that point.
2) You were wondering why but you shouldve been wondering IF. IF any of that was true. Did he actually exist? did he actually die the way the bible says he did? What other historical documents BESIDES THE BIBLE substantiate these events, if any? Was he actually god? Can we prove that? Those are the types of questions i would be asking before just assuming everything behind that cross and its meaning is true by default.
Also, why did he go through all that? Because he broke roman law and thats how they executed people back then. I never understood why people are so facinated with how jesus died. IF he died how he did in the bible yes it was horrible and painful, but isnt there one passage in the same book that says he was crucified next to a guy who was crucified upside down? That sounds even worse. And as far as all torture deaths go that isnt the worst. The romans also did the brass bull which they cook you alive in a big brass cow statue. Thats fucking horrifying.
But at the very least jesus's death was pretty commonplace for the time. It wasnt absurdly more horrible than any others. And it certainly wasnt because the romans knew he was god. They just saw some guy pretending to be god and leading people away from the central religion of rome which was against the law at the time.
It was a quick passing thought again. I asked it 1ce in my head and never thought about it again.
That was probably a second time I heard God talking to me, or putting something in me. A seed.
Or it was all in your head. You were actually just curious and just assume that it was god "planting a seed" when in reality thats just you reading too much into your own confirmation bias.
And I remember 1 more thought - Confirmation a 5th or 6th grade ritual.So being in Catholic School, that was standard.
OK hold the phone. Catholic school. So youre telling me you were born into a religious household and attended years of religious education? Even if you really were rebellious and not that into religion dont you still think that all these authority figures, teachers, parents, and peers ALL believing the same thing and telling you that certain things are true, dont you think that had an effect on you? Dont you think that influenced you at all and that its really just that kind of environment plus your underaged brain that led to your belief and not actually the hand of god? That seems like far more likely of an explaination to me.
I remember grudgingly memorizing Catholic answers, just in case the Bishop asked you a question. And it would be embarrassing to be at Confirmation and not answer correctly, and I'd miss my Confirmation party!
But the real internal thought I had was,
is this for real? Is God's Spirit going to make a difference today in this ritual?
And by this time youre already assuming god is real and god spirit is real. If you were really questioning your faith at this point and "rebelling" wouldnt a more realistic question be: "is god actually real?" "is gods spirit real?" "is any of this ritual meaningful in any way?" Those are the rational questions. But i can see by what you said that even if you had some doubts you were already a fully believing christian who believed in god and jesus.
Will I see anything or feel anything? The day came and went, I felt nothing and it didn't matter, and I got money at my party.
So, I asked these 3 questions in my head, at 3 different times, I remember these thoughts more than I remember the events, I actually don't even remember the party, or the money. I remember the thought though.
I didn't pursue these answers, they were passing thoughts that then I hardly noticed, and I certainly didn't look for an answer.
I was already becoming my environment, and I was already being pulled into the darkness that was defining me.
So I had 3 break through thoughts.
First when I was 5 asking me about truth. In my house we didn't talk about God. And if I ask my granddaughter, who will be 5 in Nov., what she's thinking she probably wouldnt answer, "I'm thinking about truth Gi Gi." And, she is more likely to have that kind of a thought than I would have at 5 in my environment!
You have a very eloquent granddaughter. If i were you id reinforce that love of truth she has. The quest for knowledge is a beautiful thing for a child to possess.
Where no one asked me my thoughts, or cared about my thoughts. Discipline consisted of what got on someones nerves, and who won the fight after. Not at all in character building.
We fought day and night everyday, violently! My mom was at work every day after school till midnight. My dad
was angry we never talked about thoughts or feelings ever. To this day thoughts and feelings are topics that start wars in my family!
My brothers are 60 and fights still break out like fist fights. Currently a few aren't talking. I had 4 older brothers and I was treated more like a dog than a girl. It was pretty violent.
I was kicked out at 12, came back by Monday. Then again at 14, didnt go to school much that year. By 15, I left and lived with friends here and there, and for a while with one of my brothers, and that was crazy and violent too.
But life was cool, my friends woke me me with partying, and we loved pot and speed.
420 blaze it
And had a great time. I didn't feel like I needed anything different. I was living my way, and it didn't make me feel like searching for anything. So I wasn't "needy" or searching.
My brother and sister in-law partied also, 3 kids in the house didn't matter, we took care of them. But still it wasn't good or healthy.
Then God moved me to a place I could hear. It was a strong deliberate hand of God,
You BELIEVE it was the deliberate hand of god.
and when He called me I said yes.
So those 3 thoughts, the first time on the porch with the paint and the about truth, the 2nd time asking a question about the Cross, the 3rd time about His Spirit and if He really comes in.
Wait wait wait. You just skipped over a pretty important part. So you were in a bad situation and then god guided you. How did he? Was it literally verbal like you heard his voice tell you what to do? Or your bible magically flipped open to the right verse? How did you know it was god?
My guess is you eventually realized that what was going on wasnt healthy and just grew out of it. You eventually stopped smoking and got a job, ate better, ect. You probably did all of the work yourself but now you just read so far into your own actions to say that it was god guiding you. Is it possible that you were completely guided only by yourself and your own self interest?
It's strange that these three thoughts are actually THE Foundation of the faith I found, without searching.
So 3 thoughts, with 3 answers that take one from darkness to light. Not walls of Jericho, or Noah's Arc, or Creation, or anything. Just these 3 questions. Seeds, that no one sowed, except God in the private passing thoughts of my own mind.
And He eventually answered.
Well the first 2 were when you were really young...so thats not a really dependable example. I mean you were a kid. Who knows what your brain was thinking back then. Also it was clear you were already a christian so theres of course confirmation bias potentially at play. The last one was really really vague as ive said above. You also havent gone into any detail of how you know you heard god nor what god said.
Honestly I was more likely to smoke in the bathroom or fire up a joint in class then follow the Catholic religion.
Hey same here!
I remember arguing with Nuns over sex and love, and I'd frustrate them.
By 9th grade Catholic School was a waste of money, and my life was my own, out of control. But God moved me like a piece on a chess board at His time.
Yeah ok but how? Did you hear a voice in your head? How did you know it was god?
When I was about 19 or 20, and He answered those 3 questions as if adjusting a lense.
I went to a Bible study, and I was actually the only one at work that was not invited to go.
The person leading it thought I wouldn't go anyway, and if I did I would just be argumentative and disruptive. And may cause some others he invited to be closed, or distracted because of me and my resistance.
Well, I was the only one who went, not invited, I invited myself.
I went, no one else did.
Ok so youre going to a bible study and actively seeking answers within your faith. Cant you see how that might lead you to read to far into things? Or to see signs where there arent any?
For instance,
i take a group of 10 people out to the desert and 5 of those people are hardcore UFO believers and the other 5 are hardcore skeptics. So a wierdly shaped weather balloon floats across the sky above us. the 5 UFO believers go "holy shit its a UFO!!!!" and start taking pictures. The other 5 of course start speculating with eachother, "do you think its a balloon?" "maybe its a plane" "maybe its a stray parachute". Ect.
But you see how the 5 UFO believers fell victim to their own confirmation bias? Because they believe in UFOs their brains automatically assume that UFO is a possible explaination for whatever they see in the sky. Even if what theyre seeing isnt actually a UFO.
In these examples you cite you may just be light the UFO believers. Because "God did it" is already a real possiblity to you youre already set up to make the same mistakes they do. Youre far more succeptible to attributing things in your life to god even when they may not have anything to do with god.
For instance if you pray to god because you need money. Then you walk down the street and find 20$. Your brain instantly thinks "Boom god answered my prayer! Thanks god". However that 20$ just fell out of some guys wallet 5 minutes ago. It had nothing to do with god at all. And if it did, why did he take that guys 20 and give it to you? Clearly it was just a coincidence but your brain is more than willing to attribute it to god.
Im not gonna say that is for a fact what happened here but dont you think thats possible? That you asking these questions and gods "answers" might not actually be answers? They may just be things that happen in life that youre just attributing to god.
And I heard it all, and it made sense, what intrigued me most was a relationship he had with God seemed real, and that was weird and interesting. He said this funky sinners prayer, and we burned my tarot cards.
But didn't feel anything at first.
Or you read to far into things and thought you saw signs when you really didnt.
Just kinda figuring out if I was really doing anything with that, or figuring out how do you hear or know God. So I partied a few more days.
Then I felt like He broke through in a moment and took my hand and walked me away from a friend with a pound of pot on the table, we had smoked I was stoned high but only for a few minutes, and then I wasn't high.
I wasn't hanging out with those Christians, or at a church. It was just me and God, a friend and a pound of weed. Happy day I never saw a whole pound of weed before.
So now weed is involved? So doesnt that make it even less likely that you were thinking coherently enough to know what was god and what wasnt? That just makes me all more skeptical. Because ive gotten high and literally prayed. I dont even believe in god but i was so stoned and hungry i looked up and said "please god let my buddy have some food". And sure enough my friend showed up with pizza. Did god answer my prayer? Or did my stoned ass just get lucky? Probably the later.
But He broke through and said, Come On, this isn't your way any more, and I had to leave abruptly. It was a RIGHT NOW minute.
Ok i can understand how that might feel but ive had the same kind of feeling. Like i got really high and for some reason just snapped out of it and thought to myself "this isnt productive. i need to start working and not smoking so much". Like it was my own conscience lecturing me while i was high. And i can see how you might interpret that to be god leading you to a better place but maybe it was just your conscience like it was for me. Sometime you do know whats best for you even if you consistently act against that. And eventually it does reach a breaking point where your better judgement just kicks in.
We say yes, and be willing to give it all, and He will meet you in the darkness and break through with light.
John 1:5
4 In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. 5 The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it.
Matthew 10: 37-39
37 “He who loves father or mother more than Me is not worthy of Me; and he who loves son or daughter more than Me is not worthy of Me. 38 And he who does not take his cross and follow after Me is not worthy of Me. 39 He who has found his life will lose it, and he who has lost his life for My sake will find it.
Those questions and more were answered in a moment, questions I never thought of beyond the thought. And they each grew in moments, like a lense was adjusted.
Right, a lens. Thats a perfect analogy. Because youre seeing the world through christian tinted lenses. The same lenses that make you think a 20$ bill you found was an answered prayer. The same lenses that make you think that anything impactful that happens in your life is god working in your life when really these things are just coincidences or common day to day happenings.
So three questions I didn't think about again, or were even mindful that I even asked.
I remembered and saw the answers. Not from a teaching, I still hadn't gone to any churches, and wasn't hanging with the Christians, I was barely reading the Bible yet at this point.
But you had been raised christian, went to catholic school, believed in god and jesus (because you were asking questions like "will i feel gods spirit?" at confirmation which tells me you believed in god already. And you also had voluntarily gone to a bible study. So you were for all intensive purposes a christian.
Yet in a moment of clarity I understood Truth, The Cross, and the Resurection, in a moment with just an adjustment of the lense.
I didn't read in Romans or Galations, and the Catholic Church certainly didn't teach this. The Cross, He died to Sever Flesh and sin from Spirit,He rose to raise us up out of the darknesd, into a walk in His Spirit. And the 1st scripture I ever loved was My sheep hear my voice and another they simply will not follow!
Truth, Cross, and Resurection. Three things given by understanding by God simply adjusting the lense!
Luke 10 - I never read it, I never read the Bible, just what I had to in Catichism, and they taught Catholocism, not really from the Bible
Luke 10
21 At that very time He rejoiced greatly in the Holy Spirit, and said,
“I praise You, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that You have hidden these things from the wise and intelligent and have revealed them to infants. Yes, Father, for this way was well-pleasing in Your sight. 22 All things have been handed over to Me by My Father, and no one knows who the Son is except the Father, and who the Father is except the Son, and anyone to whom the Son wills to reveal Him.”
23 Turning to the disciples, He said privately, “Blessed are the eyes which see the things you see,
24 for I say to you, that many prophets and kings wished to see the things which you see, and did not see them, and to hear the things which you hear, and did not hear them.”
"you have hidden these things from the wise and intelligent" that seems really counterproductive. If god wants all his children to come to him then surely hiding information from a certain group of people is a silly thing to do. Its even an evil thing to do considering the fact that if you dont find god you go to hell. So hes basically saying that god is good for hiding information from people and thus those people go to hell. So its good that god sends people to hell? How does that makes sense?
I think in a moment you thought you understood all this stuff, or you understood it in the context of the religion. Like, it makes sense within the theology but not in reality.
I think your story of your faith here is little more than indoctrination followed by confirmation bias. Its also not very persuasive to me because its an anecdote and i cant verify whether any of this actually happened to you. Not to call you a liar because i do believe you. But its just not proof to me because i didnt experience what you did first hand. And i cant just take you at your word that you "Experienced god".
You choose to be an atheist, because you choose to block being convinced. And that is a conscious decission, or subconscious decision. But it's still a decission.
^^^^
i began to doubt my faith and i became convinced there probably isnt a god and the christian religion almost certainly isnt true. It was unconscious
You choose to be an atheist, because you choose to block being convinced. And that is a conscious decission, or subconscious decision. But it's still a decission.
^^^^
i began to doubt my faith and i became convinced there probably isnt a god and the christian religion almost certainly isnt true. It was unconscious
Well now your conscious is hopefully challenged. See the words "convinced" in the same sentence as "doubt," "probably," and "almost certainly"
^^^^
Hopefully, if you really want to know as you say, then you will take the time to read about darkness and light, what is born in darkness can't stand in light. What you put your "d.. " into does matter. Because what was born in light is from Light, from God bringing light to the world. And that Light says to be ONE FLESH, light is one, water is one, you can't pull a speck of dark from Light and you can't pull a speck of light from Light, or it GOES OUT! You can't pull a drop of water from a fountain with it still in the never ending cycle of the fountain, and pulling a drop out with your hand, can you easily put the drop back? Why do you think there is so much pain in relationships, or when their over, or when cheated on, and I love gay people and transgenders, but the pain they try to escape goes so much deeper than what others think. The pain is what is written in them from the foundation of the world. The Lord our God is ONE, every seed of Light produces fruits of light. Be fruitful and multiply. It doesn't mean we all have to parent children, not all are called to parent. But we all are commanded to be fruitful in seeds of Light.
The Lord our God is ONE!
^^^^
He is not trying to make us miserable, like see Job who lost everything yet he didn't curse God, God repayed Him everything times 7, in this life and in the next.
What you give He will fill the void with light, (the earth was dark, formless, and void, AND God said let there be Light!
You may be crying with boils for 7 Days on a rock outside of the camp with all your friends saying jump off a cliff, But sorrow for a night, brings joy in the morning!
In 2nd grade thinking the question was unusual, an even more unusual to remember a single thought. I could see if it was a reoccurring nightmare.
So yeah it's significant.
And I wasn't speaking of the Internet I general. But as Christians discuss with you, God is likely to say things that hopefully challenge you. I'm sure there are things I said, hopefully God will use to challenge you.
I said weed not acid. Seriously, I never hulucinated smoking pot.
The point is I went from hight to alert in minutes and walked away from a lifestyle because God drew me in a different directiion.
^^^^^
Can you give me some examples from cold case that you heard and thought it fraudulent, you said you thought he was lieing. I gave you three videos at least 1 was pretty short.
^^^^
This is very detailed on specifics showing Jesus.
And the cold case detective proves that the eye witness accounts are credible.
And the extreme pressures would have likely killed early Christianity, yet it spread to name year a day history, BC and AD, and spread to every Nation, as Jesus said it would.
Isaiah 53
Who has believed our message?
And to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?
2 For He grew up before Him like a tender shoot,
And like a root out of parched ground;
He has no stately form or majesty
That we should look upon Him,
Nor appearance that we should be attracted to Him.
3 He was despised and forsaken of men,
A man of sorrows and acquainted with grief;
And like one from whom men hide their face
He was despised, and we did not esteem Him.
4 Surely our griefs He Himself bore,
And our sorrows He carried;
Yet we ourselves esteemed Him stricken,
Smitten of God, and afflicted.
5 But He was pierced through for our transgressions,
He was crushed for our iniquities;
The chastening for our well-being fell upon Him,
And by His scourging we are healed.
6 All of us like sheep have gone astray,
Each of us has turned to his own way;
But the Lord has caused the iniquity of us all
To fall on Him.
7 He was oppressed and He was afflicted,
Yet He did not open His mouth;
Like a lamb that is led to slaughter,
And like a sheep that is silent before its shearers,
So He did not open His mouth.
8 By oppression and judgment He was taken away;
And as for His generation, who considered
That He was cut off out of the land of the living
For the transgression of my people, to whom the stroke was due?
9 His grave was assigned with wicked men,
Yet He was with a rich man in His death,
Because He had done no violence,
Nor was there any deceit in His mouth.
10 But the Lord was pleased
To crush Him, putting Him to grief;
If He would render Himself as a guilt offering,
He will see His offspring,
He will prolong His days,
And the good pleasure of the Lord will prosper in His hand.
11 As a result of the anguish of His soul,
He will see it and be satisfied;
By His knowledge the Righteous One,
My Servant, will justify the many,
As He will bear their iniquities.
12 Therefore, I will allot Him a portion with the great,
You haven't raised any credible objections worth answering.
You actually dont have to believe it.
If you can't see or hear, then no matter how much anyone gives you it will not make an impact because you don't really want to know. You want God on your terms and it keeps you from God revealing Himself to you, and the point is that is the proof.
But if you don't have a heart that wants the proof, them the proof will be withheld from you.
You haven't raised any credible objections worth answering.
Geological evidence indicates that the world never flooded. Chinese writings exist from the same era that the global flood supposedly took place yet they provide no mention of it. All the available evidence we have shows no evidence of a global flood yet the bible says it took place. That seems like a credible objection. As are many of my previous objections.
Also thats a pretty significant cop out to say that theyre not "worth answering". That basically just relieves you of any responsibility for having to come up with an answer.
You actually dont have to believe it.
But then i go to hell.
If you can't see or hear, then no matter how much anyone gives you it will not make an impact because you don't really want to know.
No if there is a god i absolutely want to know. im just not willing to suspend all logic and reason and just believe on a whim and a prayer that there is one. i need conclusive physical evidence which is just not in your arsenal of proofs.
You want God on your terms and it keeps you from God revealing Himself to you,
So because i keep trying to prove god using logic, reason, and empiricism he refuses to reveal himself to me. What a dick
and the point is that is the proof.
But if you don't have a heart that wants the proof, them the proof will be withheld from you.
Cop out.
"do you have any proof of god?"
"uhh...uhh...your heart doesnt want the proof so you dont get any"
Actually there is plenty of geographical evidence to suggest it is possible and even probable. And I think you have more than reasonable facts for other events to look at what is true, and seek to be balanced jn weighing. Otherwise who are you kidding when you say if there were a God youd want to know. If you really would want to know you would be giving your investigation a fair approach. Thats the differesne between you and the Previous Atheist Cold Case Detective came at it with an honest approach, instead of immediately dismissing evidence that contradicts what you want to believe. Its not reasonable to expect every answer to all of it in a sbort period. Butvwhy dont you let some facts be considered. Some things can be credible waiting proof based on other credible sircumstances. especially when
your filter what we have in your arguments is selective a filter for information, regardless of fact or common sense, all information is glanced at with no way to reach your true interest in weighing, so if there is a God well than its you who have closed yourself off from Him showing you. Your not opening the door to see if there is light on the other side. Instead you are closing the blinds so light can't come through to you.
So if there is really is a spiritual world, news flash someone doesn't want you to investigate the possibility of God. In a real way there could really be someone darkening your mind in order to keep you from opening the door to find light on the other side, And obviously is doing a good job making you a puppet to reject any evidence that shows somethings worth not dismissing.
If it's not worth you breaking free for a bit and worth going out on a limb to investigate it as an adult, especially since there are able to investigate challenges easily.
Ultimately its in ypur control. Obviously given that point to areas if you want to know you should investigate. If you want to know really you wouldnt come to the thought of God with immediate judgment
That's shat people do if they want to know.
I've given you some reasonable arguments as to insight into the character of God
I had no responsibilities really. It's not like I was a drug addict or an alcoholic. I partied and had fun, I was 19 the world wasn't falling on me or anything.
I didn't come to Jesus because I felt my life needed Him.
I didn't come for fear of hell fire, I don't know if hell was even mentioned.
I came to Jesus because I liked what I saw, and what I heard made sense to me, and it drew me because it rang true in me.
I guess I came because I actually loved Light more than darkness. So I counted the cost, and decided it was worth paying.
It's actually not a free gift. It was freely given, and it is a gift.
But it's your life for the life He gives you.
And contrary to thought, all of our lives are broken. We just don't realize it because of our measure.
Some come to the end of themselves and "need" Him, or faith.
But that's not always the case, sometimes when the measure shows the contrast, you just realize you need Him.
The goody goody needs Him as much as the punk.
Sometimes the punk can see it quicker, but the need actually doesn't change. There is no greater need or lesser need from God's prespective. We all are in need. We all sit in darkness before He brings light.
Then He says "Let there be Light, and then there is Light. And God sees it as Good!
There is an event recorded in the gospels, Jesus runs into 10 lepers, and has compassion on them and says go show yourselves to the leaders, and as they went all 10 were healed. Only 1 stopped and turned back to worship Jesus.
TThat would be quite a trick forJesus to fullfil every detail in all the prophesies foretold of the expected Messiah to such accuracy.
Every aspect - His birth place, His infant escape to Egypt, oh and related to that, is the prophesy of the deaths of the babies by Herod.
So He would have had to orchestrate that at 2, or His parents did, but I doubt they had any pull or clout with Herod to have pulled that off!
His physical attributes and mannerisms, the visit from the wise men, the Manger, oh and the forced travel near time of birth to Bethlehem required by a decree of Roman rule, in order to register populous in families home of origins.
Then He would have had to openly fulfil every prophesy in His visual ministry, Yet, be hidden enough so the Pharisees didn't make any connections to the scriptures they had memorized, as well as hidden from the general public, who also had the scriptures memorized.
So He would have had to have been everything they Should Have, and Would Have Expected from Prophesies, YET, hidden enough that they would have rejected Him. So He would have had to control responses of unwilling participants from Herod to the Pharisees to the general Jewish public.
Because it's foretold, they'd reject their Messiah, thus forcing the gospel out to the Gentiles, and to every Nation.
So not only all of what the prophets foretold of Him, but also orchestrate every one else, including the actions and responses of all the willing, and all of the unwilling participants.
So Jesus would have had to have been extremely talented to work these details such as their rejection, Judas' betrayal with a kiss, his silver coins payment, his distress after, and even the field the Pharisees bought with the coins he through back in quilt, and then his suicide.
He would have had to pre-plan Roman Soldiers, Pontius Pilate, the brutal beating whipping, and maybe He requested the crown of thorns, the spear in His side, and maybe He made a special agreement of cooperation if they promised not to break His legs like they did all the criminals crucified, so that every detail was accounted for. Oh and He probably orchestrated being in the middle of two crucified criminals that day instead of being on the end, and instead of being one of 5 on that particular day. And I guess He made a deal they'd release Barabas a murderer as He scripted the mob against Him.
Then striking the Shepherd, the sheep were scattered. I guess when He told Peter about his denial 3 times before the rooster crowed, He was really instructing them to behave like scared rabbits and scatter.
Then the after, that He'd be given a tomb by a rich guy, and of course have His body stolen.
And all that scattered would be bold to their deaths, after being chicken. And emboldened by a stolen core, not a Risen Savior.
So then He orchestrated the severe persecutions after, and the martyrs. Which they went to their deaths, and not just the 11, many who saw and followed, they endured lions, stoning, beheadings, prison, loss of loved ones all for a conspiracy orchestrated by Jesus.
Then, with all that, it grew and grew pushed out from the Jews, to all the Gentiles, and out to every Nation, every nationality, yet remained rejected by Jews as a whole as told in prophesies.
And then He planned all the false prophets and misrepresentations of His message as prophesied, or I guess uoud say duh, that was bound to happen.
So all these things were foretold, and I dont know which would need a greater miracle ... Jesus orchestrating all that, it it all being true and He is who He said He is.
Here is a look down the rabbit hole, see the short video and see if you want to eat this fruit. Because in darkness this is the fruit you eat. This is where you all are headed. This is the mark of the beast!
"Cuaroc(6986) 2 points
Is there any objective purpose to life?
Yup same objective as every other animal survive and spread
I had no responsibilities really. It's not like I was a drug addict or an alcoholic. I partied and had fun, I was 19 the world wasn't falling on me or anything.
I didn't come to Jesus because I felt my life needed Him.
I didn't come for fear of hell fire, I don't know if hell was even mentioned.
I came to Jesus because I liked what I saw, and what I heard made sense to me, and it drew me because it rang true in me.
Ok but you understand how all of those reasons are terrible reasons for believing something right?
I mean thats how conspiracy theories stay alive. "it made sense to me" is a terrible reason to believe anything. Our brains are flawed and many times what makes sense to them is not true.
I guess I came because I actually loved Light more than darkness. So I counted the cost, and decided it was worth paying.
It's actually not a free gift. It was freely given, and it is a gift.
But it's your life for the life He gives you.
And contrary to thought, all of our lives are broken. We just don't realize it because of our measure.
Some come to the end of themselves and "need" Him, or faith.
But that's not always the case, sometimes when the measure shows the contrast, you just realize you need Him.
The goody goody needs Him as much as the punk.
Sometimes the punk can see it quicker, but the need actually doesn't change. There is no greater need or lesser need from God's prespective. We all are in need. We all sit in darkness before He brings light.
Then He says "Let there be Light, and then there is Light. And God sees it as Good!
Ok but i still dont have even a shred of evidence that this god exists. I love "light" in the way i like good and moral behavior. i dont feel the need to believe in some higher power in order to follow that. i also dont feel like i need rules from a 2000 year old book to behave properly in 2016.
There is an event recorded in the gospels, Jesus runs into 10 lepers, and has compassion on them and says go show yourselves to the leaders, and as they went all 10 were healed. Only 1 stopped and turned back to worship Jesus.
TThat would be quite a trick forJesus to fullfil every detail in all the prophesies foretold of the expected Messiah to such accuracy.
No it wouldnt. Not if the prophecy originated and was fullfilled in the same text. Which they were. The early biblical authors wrote the prophecy and the later biblical authors wrote in the character of jesus to fullfill it. Not hard to pull off when the only source of this information is one single collective text.
Every aspect - His birth place, His infant escape to Egypt, oh and related to that, is the prophesy of the deaths of the babies by Herod.
Really easy to do if youre just writing in a character or making it up.
So He would have had to orchestrate that at 2, or His parents did, but I doubt they had any pull or clout with Herod to have pulled that off!
His physical attributes and mannerisms, the visit from the wise men, the Manger, oh and the forced travel near time of birth to Bethlehem required by a decree of Roman rule, in order to register populous in families home of origins.
How do you know any of these events happened?
Then He would have had to openly fulfil every prophesy in His visual ministry, Yet, be hidden enough so the Pharisees didn't make any connections to the scriptures they had memorized, as well as hidden from the general public, who also had the scriptures memorized.
And here in lies a problem. You have large amounts of these events being memorized by people and spread by word of mouth for many many years before being written down. Humans have a habit of embellishing things to make them more interesting and the human brain has a tendency for misremembering things. So do you really trust that when many of these things were finally written down that the accounts in the texts match the actual facts of the events that happened?
So He would have had to have been everything they Should Have, and Would Have Expected from Prophesies, YET, hidden enough that they would have rejected Him. So He would have had to control responses of unwilling participants from Herod to the Pharisees to the general Jewish public.
Because it's foretold, they'd reject their Messiah, thus forcing the gospel out to the Gentiles, and to every Nation.
So not only all of what the prophets foretold of Him, but also orchestrate every one else, including the actions and responses of all the willing, and all of the unwilling participants.
So Jesus would have had to have been extremely talented to work these details such as their rejection, Judas' betrayal with a kiss, his silver coins payment, his distress after, and even the field the Pharisees bought with the coins he through back in quilt, and then his suicide.
K but how do you know any of this ever happened
He would have had to pre-plan Roman Soldiers, Pontius Pilate, the brutal beating whipping, and maybe He requested the crown of thorns, the spear in His side, and maybe He made a special agreement of cooperation if they promised not to break His legs like they did all the criminals crucified, so that every detail was accounted for. Oh and He probably orchestrated being in the middle of two crucified criminals that day instead of being on the end, and instead of being one of 5 on that particular day. And I guess He made a deal they'd release Barabas a murderer as He scripted the mob against Him.
1. how do you know any of this ever happened?
2. If hes god why is it so crazy to think he could set that all up?
Then striking the Shepherd, the sheep were scattered. I guess when He told Peter about his denial 3 times before the rooster crowed, He was really instructing them to behave like scared rabbits and scatter.
Then the after, that He'd be given a tomb by a rich guy, and of course have His body stolen.
And all that scattered would be bold to their deaths, after being chicken. And emboldened by a stolen core, not a Risen Savior.
So then He orchestrated the severe persecutions after, and the martyrs. Which they went to their deaths, and not just the 11, many who saw and followed, they endured lions, stoning, beheadings, prison, loss of loved ones all for a conspiracy orchestrated by Jesus.
Then, with all that, it grew and grew pushed out from the Jews, to all the Gentiles, and out to every Nation, every nationality, yet remained rejected by Jews as a whole as told in prophesies.
And then He planned all the false prophets and misrepresentations of His message as prophesied, or I guess uoud say duh, that was bound to happen.
So all these things were foretold, and I dont know which would need a greater miracle ... Jesus orchestrating all that, it it all being true and He is who He said He is.
Its only a miracle that he set all that up IF you accept that all of this happened exactly how its written in the bible. Which there is no evidence to prove that it did.
Here is a look down the rabbit hole, see the short video and see if you want to eat this fruit. Because in darkness this is the fruit you eat. This is where you all are headed. This is the mark of the beast!
"Cuaroc(6986) 2 points
Is there any objective purpose to life?
Yup same objective as every other animal survive and spread
Ok this video starts off really really bad. It starts with this hackjob annecdote about how Wallace was on some christian website he doesnt name and how some poster (which he also doesnt name) posts to his fellow atheists. And this poster says the most ridiculous shit. He says that atheists believe the universe is an "uncaused, random, accident" and "all life past and present is the result of random chance". THIS IS FALSE. He uses this hackjob anecdote from a supposed atheist to strawman the shit out of the atheist position.
The atheist position is "i do not believe in god". THATS IT. There is no such thing as an atheist worldview. Because from the term atheist you cant discern anything about what a person believes. You cant discern what they believe about the origins of the universe and what they believe about life on earth. Some atheists believe the universe was caused. Some think life on earth was the result of abiogenesis, some believe it was aliens. Some believe in evolution .some do not. But from the word atheist you cant tell any of that. So he takes this one post from a supposed atheist who strawmans the shit out of his own kind by claiming that all atheists believe these absurd things that i assure you VERY few atheists actually believe and that allows him to finish the video attacking this strawman as if hes attacking atheism itself. But he isnt, hes just attacking this one strawman under the assumption that because it comes from an atheist it must be true because the poster is supposedly an authority on what atheists believe. But the poster is a liar and a buffoon. So
The only consequences of an atheistic "worldview" is that theres no god in it. Thats it. Theres still love theres still hope theres still joy theres still good and evil theres still morals. And people who hold that worldview are free to hold any opinion or belief they want execpt that a god exists because that runs contrary to the very definition of atheism. if an atheist believes in god they cease to be an atheist. But if an atheist rejects evolution theyre still an atheist.
Here is your archeological find of everything including Jericho
All the history in these digs are in the wrong time period. Yet every evidence is there 200 years prior confirming everything and they'd rather deny it. .
It's obvious the data of history in the Bible isn't fiction.
Atheists are desperate to cover this up and discredit the Bible.
That's just actually evil. That's literally taking control of people's beliefs by with holding facts
What is really upsetting, the Bible has a historical document literally is time stamped. You have to be an idiot to mistake everything.
So they go off of the guessing of Egypt, yet the archeology confirms every story and dating including Jericho.
It's pretty devious to ignore time stamping to guessing.
If you just go on geneology you know they had it dated wrong!
We don't cover anything up. Its just usually archaeological evidence is bullshit or it's not conclusive. For instance nobody disputes that mount Sinai is a real mountain. But just because you prove it exists does not prove that everything in the bible that happened on it really happened . mount Sinai existing does not prove Moses existed and walked up it to talk to God. But much of the archaeological "evidence" for the bible claims such things
Sometimes deception tricks you and your just blind following
Other times Deception is a choice.
And not weighing with balance and accurately measuring for yourself is a time of choosing deception.
Famous Bible hero, Gideon was told to go in to battle.
He had too many warriors so God paired down, from 22,000 to 10,000. And God said still to many. So He said bring them to the river to drink and select them by the way they drink.
The men will drink by kneeling before the water send home, and the ones lapping who cup the water into their hands and bring it to their mouths, choose those men to go with you. They were only 300 men
chosen to go on to win the battle against the Midianites.
Are you a person who like the 300 brings the water to your mouth to drink, OR, are you like the 9700 who knelt before the water to drink?
Both are excellent, one shows pretty convincing evidence of the biggie, the parting of the sea and drowning of the army.
Archeologists know these things. There are two kinds of
people keeping it from updating all the textbooks, one set are
people don't want to upset anything, the second group want to discredit the history of the Bible. Most of those are atheists.
Not only that but economically a geographer, they look for funding and they don't want the easy Bible, that's old news, they have to invent new news..
Also the timeline shouldn't have been off to begin with, the Bible is time stamped! So just in geneologies it shows a different date.
They picked dates around Pharoah Ramsay's, Ramsay's was probably named with the same name as an area.
But they pieced together the miraculous football. All there! 200 years earlier than their dating. And it shows stories that God orchestrated. Like slave to the most honored man in the land, Joseph, that was so impressive, the statue still intact and in Egypt yet the figure is not Egyptian. The whole pattern is there, just 200 years earlier
When you bury the people you love, what's it like?
What's next for you. Is it just dust, bones, and maggots?
It bothers you that there is nothing more, so why do you live as if there is nothing more? And why would you try so hard even when there IS compelling evidence to be considered? Why try so hard to believe against it?
You try harder to not believe, and ignore anything that can make
you doubt your unbelief. So you say prove it, then refuse to even look at any proof. You want proof in your little box. You want proof in this littlr box of what you determine "would be proof, and it's not a way that would be proof, it's like give me proof this way, oh goody now proven this way it actually disproves. It's actually pretty dumb!
If proven by method of what's in your little box, that would actually be proof against God. If proof would be a person or a sign then how could it be proof of God? You could explain away the person, and their words, and you can explain away any signs.
It's futile, the Bible 2000 years ago understood human thought and behavior when Paul, and Timothy, and the others who wrote letters said statements as in, Romans 1:21 "For even though they knew God, they did not honor Him as God or give thanks, but they became futile in their speculations, and their foolish heart was darkened."
Your requirement of proof is limited to somethings that wouldn't prove God if they existed in that display anyway.
So let's not pretend that you really want proof, because we both know that you reject proof, because if it doesn't jump out of your little box of preconceived ideas. Then the strongman that keeps your box closed, continues to keep proof from you. The strongman 1st needs to be bound, before you can actually recieve proof!
But your strongman not only keeps proof from you, but he has made it more appealing to you to keep your box closed. If it all were true, what challenges would you then face?
Don't you think that possibly if God does exist, then there are also forces at work that don't want you to know?
I'm convinced of God. My faith isn't actually questionable at all.
Even moments I don't "feel faith" or when I don't "sense God"
There is still proof to tell me my faith is proven. And logical, and intelligent, and simply common sense!
Everything I see confirms beyond my faith. Science doesn't tell me there isn't a God, it tells me there is. Science doesn't contradict my faith, it compliments my faith.
And honestly, I hadn't even known there was such a discredit occurring through geological "findings" or "lack of findings" regarding the Bible as just history.
I have to tell you I'm no Bible scholar, and not highly educated, but if I had know, I myself would have discredited geology simply with the Bibles own timestamps.
Then I would have sought to cure the discrepancy of Ramsey logically within its own text, to find out why the confusion on the Pharoah Ramsey. Not because Im searching to credit the Bible, but because I would think it would and should show a factual reason for it, and it wouldnt make sense if it didnt.
Geologist and Historical scholars Biblical and secular all assumed it was Ramsey, because of a few mentions of Ramsey and mis-applied it to assume Ramsey. When it didn't fit they didn't do what smart people do, FIND THE EXPLANATION!
I guess I can see why you all are so confused on the Bible of myths as opposed to the Bible of history.
So let's start there, and get the history right 1ST!!
So when the history is right, then we can consider a story like Joseph - who was sold into slavery by his jeoulos brothers, and then connect the findings in geology that match to a T. Findings! Huge findings, of this sensational andvoutstanding account of a memorialized person in Egypt that appears in every way to be a Hebrew! An exalted person that is not a Pharoah, and is not even an Egyptian, then when you see it lines up with Bible history, and it's geographically and geologically documented in detail to have every indication it is history as it is written in ancient scrolls and scribblings by eyewitness accounts, even Egyptian eyewitness accounts.
Yet the studies would prefer to cover it up and dismisd even a responsibility to explain it, and there by reject it as documentation of historical facts. Rather than deal with affirming the Bible is historically very credible! And then even more challenging to them, being forced to deal with the unexplained, sensational aspect of what all that could LOGICALLY conclude as they piece logical situations that may have occurred causing the sensational historical event!
Just consider the findings of just this one story of Joseph. I mean clear FINDINGS! As the findings sit showing historical documentations as they were written in detail in the Bible, written by people OF those days.
Then you would have to ask logical questions.
How did this man go from a slave sold to traders, then sold in Egypt, bought by the "right owner at the right time," for this sensational outcome to have come about. To go from a slave to then rise in ranks, while being held captive as a slave in a foreign land. A land that wouldn't have respected a Hebrew or anyone from outside of their own land, especially a Hebrew Slave!
And to then have this Hebrew slave rise in that land from Slave to a Memorialized Honored Figure like He was the most important foreigner to ever exist in Egypt, by Egypts own display of honor, And outside of Biblical text! Like he "saved them all from famine or did something big" And by doing so made them, Egypt the richest strongest Nation that existed at the time! Greater even that Pharoah!
To then have this documented immediate decline during the Era the Bible says occurred the Exodus!
So I can see why it's more convenient to not deal with that as a question, and have to answer when you hate any idea of God.
Then Jericho, to find in the same period of when the Bible said the Exodus happened to then find a fallen city wall, that displays the exact Biblical description as facts and details of a historical event.
But then have to explain how it fell, and the siege that occurred, and it has every sign and detail that the wall fell, and then after there are signs of burning, and even signs that there were homes in the wall, and 1 home fallen intact like whoever singed it let 1 house remain, protecting a promise to the woman who helped the says, as told in the historical document.
But what bugs me is the time stamp factor, that everyone decided to ignore even Bible scholars, so what would it be like if we pick and choose historical facts and by doing so remove Hitler.
Yet these folks because there is a spiritual aspect did just that!
Literally time stamped. But instead of that, following the times noted in the Bible, they were easily pushed to select Rameses and set the date on that instead of on the timestamps noted right in the Bible.
Ramsey was mentioned in the Bible way before the Pharoah named Ramesey.
This is an example of Deceptions, and God letting people who hate light be filled with their own Deceptions!
As it is written, He makes the wise fools, and the simple wise.
What's that mean - these educated idiots built timelines that they'd later be embarrassed to admit were wrong and should fix, And all the smart people of the world follow their analysis, and would rather silense their stupidity, and justify it saying it doesnt matter, while discrediting documtable history that is more detailed than their tattered findibgs, and TIMESTAMPED!
While all the simple minded stupid faith people are not only wiser in wisdom, they are 10 times smarter in practicality and as in this geographical and in this geological area of study, we don't even need to dig to say is incorrect. The simple are wiser in many other fields of study also. Because common sense is greater than nonsense!
You have science, Jeeze, we did learn a lot, but ancient men understood the speed of light, and knew the world was round, and even the order of creation itself, and how it applies in so called evolution. Sure there are still questions, like who was Cain's wife, but not knowing an answer doesn't mean there isn't one!
These ancient authors understood human nature and principals that today's wisdom and psychology again is adopting foolishness over wisdom, nonsense over common sense.
But I'm not surprised, because we are in the 6th day! And Jesus and the prophets told us these things would be.
And our job is to let tell it so that anyone who has an ear to hear can know, and we can pull them out of the Deceptions and help them on the Narrow Path of Wisdom!
It is ridiculous to think every story made up, every war, and every movement of a people group that was so intensely detailed in account just historically.
Here is how dumb this thought is, they have rags a and tatters defining Egyptian history, which is off by 200 years. Why? Because the only thing they pull from the Bible is the name Ramsay. So why pull that, and ignore other historical details that would date history.
To then dig in that 200 year differential and find 0 evidence in that time marker of digs, then discredit every piece of history except 1 word Ramsey. Then take it further and find every piece of Bible history 200 years prior that displays every historical account and ignore it. Because of the 1 name they pull out - Ramsay. Even crazier they pull that 1 name out and date around it, and say the Jews were never slaves in Egypt, and ruled by any Pharoah let alone Ramsay's. And that's intelligent????
And why would you try so hard even when there IS compelling evidence to be considered?
You are going to talk about ignoring compelling evidence?
So you say prove it, then refuse to even look at any proof.
No one has ever presented proof. They just say we are ignoring the proof that has never been presented.
You want proof in your little box.
It is actually a huge box and you can't get in it at all. It is kind of sad.
You want proof in this littlr box of what you determine "would be proof, and it's not a way that would be proof, it's like give me proof this way, oh goody now proven this way it actually disproves. It's actually pretty dumb!
False. We say give us proof this way and you say that you can't give proof that way.
If proven by method of what's in your little box, that would actually be proof against God.
See. Proves my point.
If proof would be a person or a sign then how could it be proof of God? You could explain away the person, and their words, and you can explain away any signs.
Yes, that's your entire fucking religion. It is fucking ridiculous. You believe in stuff that is very fucking easy to dismiss because it has much much simpler explanations.
It's futile, the Bible 2000 years ago understood human thought and behavior
Congratulations, you just pointed out how worthless the Bible is. It is a book about human thought and behavior just like atheists say.
Your requirement of proof is limited to somethings that wouldn't prove God if they existed in that display anyway.
Because God isn't actually real. Atheists want to prove a God exists in reality.
So let's not pretend that you really want proof,
Fuck you. This is why Christianity is a failure. You hate people.
because we both know that you reject proof,
Hypocrite.
because if it doesn't jump out of your little box of preconceived ideas.
Sorry, but things that are real being based on reality is a good preconceived idea.
Don't you think that possibly if God does exist, then there are also forces at work that don't want you to know?
No. That's the stupidest fucking possibility. Why would God hide?
I'm convinced of God. My faith isn't actually questionable at all.
How convenient. Everything you chastise atheists for you are completely devoid of. You want atheists to question their beliefs but you hypocritically refuse to question yours. So, kindly, go fuck yourself.
There is still proof to tell me my faith is proven. And logical, and intelligent, and simply common sense!
Actually, your faith is only seen with a lack of logic and intelligence. Common sense true.
Science doesn't tell me there isn't a God, it tells me there is.
Guess what, we don't give a fuck. We aren't trying to tell you that science says that. You on the other hand try to tell us to reject some science to avoid conflicts you do have.
Science doesn't contradict my faith, it compliments my faith.
If only that were actually true. You could actually stop rejecting science.
I have to tell you I'm no Bible scholar, and not highly educated,
Actually, you didn't ;)
I guess I can see why you all are so confused on the Bible of myths as opposed to the Bible of history.
No, you can't.
that everyone decided to ignore even Bible scholars,
You disagree with Bible scholars and geologists. Congratulations.
I would like to suggest an alternative to your idea that Bible scholars are ignoring things: you don't understand why things were rejected.
I'm sorry Cartman your attitude toward facts and reason and truth is nonsense. And you clearly think exactly what you want to think no matter what argument is in front of you.
So at this time of your life, your not open to debate that can challenge things you think.
How is that relivant to whether a god exists or not.
When you bury the people you love, what's it like?
Its sad. it hurts. You feel loss and emptiness. Its especially bad for me because im just bad with death. i can go to a funeral for someone i never even knew and still sob and sob. i just dont take death well.
But you say your last goodbye and say a touching eulogy and eventually you get over it. Even though im near certain my great grandparents are not looking down on me from some cloud i still take comfort in all the memories i have of when they were alive.
What's next for you. Is it just dust, bones, and maggots?
Pretty much yeah. But i personally wanna be cremated and shot into space. but that sounds expensive.
It bothers you that there is nothing more, so why do you live as if there is nothing more?
Because i recognize that no matter how much i hate the idea that im going to die someday that has ZERO effect on the outcome. i can hate death all i want, i can scream and cry and throw a fit, and i can HOPE and WANT so badly not to die. But that has no effect on what will happen. And what will happen is you will die, i will die, and everyone we know and love will die. That is reality however painful and shitty it may be. And no amount of praying and hoping and eating crackers on sunday will change that. So its better to just keep living in the moment while were alive and hold precious every second we have with those we love.
And why would you try so hard even when there IS compelling evidence to be considered? Why try so hard to believe against it?
Because there is no compelling evidence. At least none youve provided for me. You just cite a bunch of bible verses which isnt persuasive to me at all considering that doesnt prove theres a god or that any of the stuff in the bible ever actually happened.
You try harder to not believe, and ignore anything that can make
you doubt your unbelief.
I dont try to disbelieve. It takes no effort at all. im not actively trying to disbelieve i just dont believe. simple. hell i rarely even think of god and religion on a daily basis. Really only when i come on here i do. And i think its you who is the one trying so hard to believe even though there really isnt anything solid to prove god exists. I mean really if there was evidence they wouldnt call it faith. If there was evidence they wouldnt tell you you just have to believe and it will be revealed to you. They would just hand you all the research and paperwork showing gods existence in detail and that would be that.
So you say prove it, then refuse to even look at any proof.
No ill look at anything you give me. Ive read most all of your arguments, its just were having like 5 different conversations at once so its hard to keep them organized sometimes and forgive me if i missed something. But yeah ill hear literally any argument you wanna submit to me. However that doesnt mean im not gonna rebut those arguments. And just because im rebutting those arguments doesnt mean im refusing to look at your proof. quite the contrary, im looking at it in detail using skepticism and disputing it according to what i do know.
You want proof in your little box.
Well i want proof that is actually proof. Not just what you claim to be proof but is really riddled with fallacies or just straight up non factual information, or is just simply not proof.
When i ask, "how do you know the world flooded?" for example, and you then cite me the bible verse saying how the world flooded that isnt proof it happened. Thats the origin of the claim.
It would be like someone asking "how do you know harry potter actually exists?" And i cite the passage where Hagrid says "youre a wizard harry" as proof. That isnt proof its just words in a book. i can write down anything i want it doesnt make it true even if its in a 2000 year old book. In fact considering how poor literacy and scientific literacy was 2000 years ago id say the age of the bible is more of a testament AGAINST its validity than for it.
You want proof in this littlr box of what you determine "would be proof, and it's not a way that would be proof, it's like give me proof this way, oh goody now proven this way it actually disproves. It's actually pretty dumb!
Thats me refuting your arguments. I want proof but i dont want proof that violates laws of logic or requires me to assume that huge portions of the bible are true on their face. There are standards for proof you know. i didnt make em i just follow them.
If proven by method of what's in your little box, that would actually be proof against God. If proof would be a person or a sign then how could it be proof of God? You could explain away the person, and their words, and you can explain away any signs.
Only because anecdotal evidence isnt really evidence. thats why witness testimony alone doesnt stand up in court. If you or anyone tells me they had a vision from god how can i prove they really had that experience? I cant. id just have to believe them when they tell me. Because i didnt experience the vision, they did. But im not willing to just believe someone had a godly vision at face value. They might have misinterpreted it or hallucinated it which would be far more likely explanations.
It's futile, the Bible 2000 years ago understood human thought and behavior when Paul, and Timothy, and the others who wrote letters said statements as in, Romans 1:21 "For even though they knew God, they did not honor Him as God or give thanks, but they became futile in their speculations, and their foolish heart was darkened."
Your requirement of proof is limited to somethings that wouldn't prove God if they existed in that display anyway.
Well if god just showed up right in front of me clear as day that would absolutely be damning proof.
So let's not pretend that you really want proof, because we both know that you reject proof, because if it doesn't jump out of your little box of preconceived ideas.
But i do want proof. If there is a god as you claim there is then i want proof of that god. However that does not protect your arguments from scrutiny. Yes, i have a standard of proof. No i dont think that standard is unreasonable. I do not think its unreasonable to reject the writings of a 2000 year old book as evidence expecially when those words are not cross verified by any other source.
that keeps your box closed, continues to keep proof from you. The strongman 1st needs to be bound, before you can actually recieve proof!
And i would counter that you view the world entirely with god tinted glasses. You refuse to even entertain the idea that you may be wrong. You refuse to look at your religion with any objectivity.
But your strongman not only keeps proof from you, but he has made it more appealing to you to keep your box closed. If it all were true, what challenges would you then face?
Don't you think that possibly if God does exist, then there are also forces at work that don't want you to know?
Sure, if a god exists then there could be other entities. However if god exists then he must have created those entities. And if those entities dont want me to know god exists and god created them then god himself must have intended for me never to know he exists. If an omniscient god exists then he made me an atheist.
I'm convinced of God. My faith isn't actually questionable at all.
You should always question your beliefs. Over and over and over. Never stop questioning. People were also convinced of nazism. People are convinced of islam. People are convinced of a lot of wrong stuff and perhaps if they ever stopped to examine it theyd begin to see holes in their ideologies.
Even moments I don't "feel faith" or when I don't "sense God"
There is still proof to tell me my faith is proven. And logical, and intelligent, and simply common sense!
Everything I see confirms beyond my faith. Science doesn't tell me there isn't a God, it tells me there is. Science doesn't contradict my faith, it compliments my faith.
Well science doesnt even concern itself with the god question. God is an unfalsifiable concept so science cant do anything with it.
And honestly, I hadn't even known there was such a discredit occurring through geological "findings" or "lack of findings" regarding the Bible as just history.
I have to tell you I'm no Bible scholar, and not highly educated, but if I had know, I myself would have discredited geology simply with the Bibles own timestamps.
Then I would have sought to cure the discrepancy of Ramsey logically within its own text, to find out why the confusion on the Pharoah Ramsey. Not because Im searching to credit the Bible, but because I would think it would and should show a factual reason for it, and it wouldnt make sense if it didnt.
Geologist and Historical scholars Biblical and secular all assumed it was Ramsey, because of a few mentions of Ramsey and mis-applied it to assume Ramsey. When it didn't fit they didn't do what smart people do, FIND THE EXPLANATION!
I guess I can see why you all are so confused on the Bible of myths as opposed to the Bible of history.
So let's start there, and get the history right 1ST!!
I never said the bible doesnt contain any factual history. Sure it does. Mount Sanai was a real place. Rome was a real place. There are some real events recorded in the bible. However just because SOME of it is true doesnt mean ALL of it is true. For example, just because mount Sanai exists doesnt mean moses climbed up it to talk to god through a burning bush or deliver commandments on a stone tablet.
So when the history is right, then we can consider a story like Joseph - who was sold into slavery by his jeoulos brothers, and then connect the findings in geology that match to a T. Findings! Huge findings, of this sensational andvoutstanding account of a memorialized person in Egypt that appears in every way to be a Hebrew! An exalted person that is not a Pharoah, and is not even an Egyptian, then when you see it lines up with Bible history, and it's geographically and geologically documented in detail to have every indication it is history as it is written in ancient scrolls and scribblings by eyewitness accounts, even Egyptian eyewitness accounts.
Yet the studies would prefer to cover it up and dismisd even a responsibility to explain it, and there by reject it as documentation of historical facts. Rather than deal with affirming the Bible is historically very credible! And then even more challenging to them, being forced to deal with the unexplained, sensational aspect of what all that could LOGICALLY conclude as they piece logical situations that may have occurred causing the sensational historical event!
Just consider the findings of just this one story of Joseph. I mean clear FINDINGS! As the findings sit showing historical documentations as they were written in detail in the Bible, written by people OF those days.
Then you would have to ask logical questions.
I would have to actually do some research into the history of the events youre talking about because im unfamiliar with them.
How did this man go from a slave sold to traders, then sold in Egypt, bought by the "right owner at the right time," for this sensational outcome to have come about. To go from a slave to then rise in ranks, while being held captive as a slave in a foreign land. A land that wouldn't have respected a Hebrew or anyone from outside of their own land, especially a Hebrew Slave!
I would first ask, how do we know this man really existed? What evidence proves he existed? What evidence proves there was a mass exodus of jews from egypt? Because as far as i know there is no real egyptian historical documentation of any significant amount of jewish slaves and certainly no record of the red sea incident.
And to then have this Hebrew slave rise in that land from Slave to a Memorialized Honored Figure like He was the most important foreigner to ever exist in Egypt, by Egypts own display of honor, And outside of Biblical text! Like he "saved them all from famine or did something big" And by doing so made them, Egypt the richest strongest Nation that existed at the time! Greater even that Pharoah!
To then have this documented immediate decline during the Era the Bible says occurred the Exodus!
Oh so is all this information coming only from the bible or is there cross confirming egypitian records to substantiate it?
So I can see why it's more convenient to not deal with that as a question, and have to answer when you hate any idea of God.
Well i could just chalk it up to "i dont know". Really what may or may not have happened in egypt 2000 years ago isnt much of a concern to me. There is absolutely no way to verify such miraculous events without serious documentation and even then these are ancient people recording this and they didnt know shit about anything. So i dont really take seriously much of the historical arguments from the bible.
Then Jericho, to find in the same period of when the Bible said the Exodus happened to then find a fallen city wall, that displays the exact Biblical description as facts and details of a historical event.
But then have to explain how it fell, and the siege that occurred, and it has every sign and detail that the wall fell, and then after there are signs of burning, and even signs that there were homes in the wall, and 1 home fallen intact like whoever singed it let 1 house remain, protecting a promise to the woman who helped the says, as told in the historical document.
But what bugs me is the time stamp factor, that everyone decided to ignore even Bible scholars, so what would it be like if we pick and choose historical facts and by doing so remove Hitler.
Yet these folks because there is a spiritual aspect did just that!
Yes jericho was a real place. We have dug it up. That does not prove then that god had anything to do with it. All it proves is that the biblical writers were aware of jericho's existence. I mean if the bible details like very specific signs and burn patterns for the buildings and archaeologists at jericho dug it up and said the same patterns were there then thats cross confirming evidence. But otherwise its still just a biblical claim.
Literally time stamped. But instead of that, following the times noted in the Bible, they were easily pushed to select Rameses and set the date on that instead of on the timestamps noted right in the Bible.
Ramsey was mentioned in the Bible way before the Pharoah named Ramesey.
This is an example of Deceptions, and God letting people who hate light be filled with their own Deceptions!
As it is written, He makes the wise fools, and the simple wise.
What's that mean - these educated idiots built timelines that they'd later be embarrassed to admit were wrong and should fix, And all the smart people of the world follow their analysis, and would rather silense their stupidity, and justify it saying it doesnt matter, while discrediting documtable history that is more detailed than their tattered findibgs, and TIMESTAMPED!
The bible says people will refuse to believe what it says, wow not that hard to predict.
While all the simple minded stupid faith people are not only wiser in wisdom, they are 10 times smarter in practicality and as in this geographical and in this geological area of study, we don't even need to dig to say is incorrect.
PFFFFT. yes, yes you do need to dig. If the bible says something historical happened then how can we verify it unless we go dig and find some evidence of it? Youre literally saying because the bible is right on SOME history therefore its right on all history and you dont even have to check anymore. Thats silly of course you have to check. And if you check and the history does match the bible then cool the bible god something right.
The simple are wiser in many other fields of study also. Because common sense is greater than nonsense!
Thats why faith healing utterly fails and gets people killed while modern medicine saves lives on a daily basis.
Cmon now. Really? Youre really gonna say religious knowledge trumps actual study of history, archaeology, science, medicine, ect? Religious knowledge trumps all in EVERY field? Cmon now. Thats absurd.
You have science, Jeeze, we did learn a lot, but ancient men understood the speed of light
No they didnt. They didnt even understand what light really was let alone conceive of its particles having a speed.
and knew the world was round,
Thats questionable from biblical standards and absolutely untrue if you go much earlier than the bible.
and even the order of creation itself, and how it applies in so called evolution.
Those are beliefs not science. Creation is not scientific.
Sure there are still questions, like who was Cain's wife, but not knowing an answer doesn't mean there isn't one!
My question would be "how do we know cain ever existed at all. And how do we know adam and eve existed for that matter? And the answer is pretty obvious that theres no evidence outside the bible showing the existence of the geneology of adam and eve.
These ancient authors understood human nature and principals that today's wisdom and psychology again is adopting foolishness over wisdom, nonsense over common sense.
These people treated people as property. They slaughtered women and children by the dozens without a second thought. They said women should be silent and subservient to their husbands. These people didnt understand human nature and psychology at all. They FEARED human nature if anything. Hence why their god hates sex and homosexuality and a bunch of stuff that the ancient people themselves hated. Wierd how a god would allow the hebrew armies to take virgin women as wives and slaves. Seems like thats exactly what the men in the army wouldve wanted.
But I'm not surprised, because we are in the 6th day! And Jesus and the prophets told us these things would be.
And our job is to let tell it so that anyone who has an ear to hear can know, and we can pull them out of the Deceptions and help them on the Narrow Path of Wisdom!
It is ridiculous to think every story made up, every war, and every movement of a people group that was so intensely detailed in account just historically.
Detail =/= truth. Harry potter has a lot of detail. Doesnt make it true. And why is it so ridiculous to think its all made up? We have libraries FULL of billions of pages of FICTION that humans have made up over centuries. And theres 3000 other religions besides yours with their own detailed histories and stories and myths. And you must believe all those are made up then right? So if we know humans can create whole volumes of fiction from our own imaginations, and we know that thousands of other religions are made up, then how is it so absurd to think of your religion as the same as all that stuff?
Here is how dumb this thought is, they have rags a and tatters defining Egyptian history, which is off by 200 years. Why? Because the only thing they pull from the Bible is the name Ramsay. So why pull that, and ignore other historical details that would date history.
To then dig in that 200 year differential and find 0 evidence in that time marker of digs, then discredit every piece of history except 1 word Ramsey. Then take it further and find every piece of Bible history 200 years prior that displays every historical account and ignore it. Because of the 1 name they pull out - Ramsay. Even crazier they pull that 1 name out and date around it, and say the Jews were never slaves in Egypt, and ruled by any Pharoah let alone Ramsay's. And that's intelligent????
im unfamiliar with egyptian history but im pretty sure this is because we know for a fact Ramsay existed. His family line is well recorded. However the hebrew exodus from egypt doesnt show up at all in egyptian records.
Doesn't it bother you that there is no hope for you beyond the grave?
I know it bothers you to think you may mis out, if Eternal Life really exists.
Like it's unfair for you to go to nothing, when someone else goes to something. But you won't even look at proof when it's given.
So why should you go to something if you don't even know the Host of Eternal Life. It's a dinner party, your welcome to come, but you can't get past security unless you know the Host and your name is on the attendance list.
But I'm sorry you won't be let in for the celebration if the Host isn't worth your interest.
Because i recognize that no matter how much i hate the idea that im going to die someday that has ZERO effect on the outcome. i can hate death all i want, i can scream and cry and throw a fit, and i can HOPE and WANT so badly not to die. But that has no effect on what will happen. And what will happen is you will die, i will die, and everyone we know and love will die. That is reality however painful and shitty it may be. And no amount of praying and hoping and eating crackers on sunday will change that. So its better to just keep living in the moment while were alive and hold precious every second we have with those we love.
This actually is not a true statement. Because unless you gave my arguments a fair consideration, and looked at the material I gave you then your avoiding proof and the challenge of proof. I didn't give you BS or junk, and the finding speak launder than thunder or I wouldn't have given them to you!
I am very selective about truth, and I am pretty well tuned to find things that are fantastic and also logical.
There is a God, wake up! And your choosing mis information over factual information. So don't act like this is beyond you having proof. So let's not act like a victim when you fly your wings in the wrong direction, your choice is to literally staring in your face truth or lies, you have chosen lies by not being open to truth!
"No ill look at anything you give me. I've read most all of your arguments, its just were having like 5 different conversations at once so its hard to keep them organized sometimes and forgive me if I missed something. But yeah ill hear literally any argument you wanna submit to me. However that doesnt mean im not gonna rebut those arguments. And just because i'm rebutting those arguments doesnt mean im refusing to look at your proof. quite the contrary, im looking at it in detail using skepticism and disputing it according to what i do know.
You want proof in your little box.
Well i want proof that is actually proof. Not just what you claim to be proof but is really riddled with fallacies or just straight up non factual information, or is just simply not proof.
When i ask, "how do you know the world flooded?" for example, and you then cite me the bible verse saying how the world flooded that isnt proof it happened. Thats the origin of the claim.
It would be like someone asking "how do you know harry potter actually exists?" And i cite the passage where Hagrid says "youre a wizard harry" as proof. That isnt proof its just words in a book. i can write down anything i want it doesnt make it true even if its in a 2000 year old book. In fact considering how poor literacy and scientific literacy was 2000 years ago id say the age of the bible is more of a testament AGAINST its validity than for it.
^^^^^^^
Let's start then atleast an openness to a discussion. But if proof really matters to you, then you need to weigh proof, and challenge to expose lies for yourself.
With your own lense and filters, with an open mind.
Truth won't always be present and knocking. What if it becomes rare to even find truth?
Many approach truth, just to produce challenges for contention.
It's easy to find people with non sense arguments focused away from truth that leads to drink. They are set on defense of doctrines, but they don't know they happen to be in the flood with you.
What if after a short time a cloud hides truth from sight, and you can't find it, so its worth becomes a bag of gold?
Truth be told, they're voice are becoming one noise, just one of many being swept away by the flood of lies and deceptions.
So then, What if your window is short for the ability to find truth and to be challenged is short, before the door is shut?
You may not have many opportunities left before the door is shut, where God is making His appeals to your logical mind, like He did for Thomas, in the Bible.
So while pondering points of our discussions, at least view some of the support pieces I give you, to determine their value of consideration, weigh it with an active consideration. Since in the long run, you have more to loose than people like me if your wrong and I'm right..
I can understand if you find that after given a few support pieces, if you find many of my support pieces can be easily dismissed as non sense, and not worth any consider toward building a case thatcould potentially challenge your position with reasonable proof of God not just unreasonable nonsense.
Honestly I would't waste your time if I didn't value the support references.
It's not like I pull just anything off the Internet and throw it out there as support.
The question is if you had more reasons to believe, than not believe, then is that at least worthwile to base truth on facts and truth instead of not deception and lies.
This is the real deal of this debate, If your right, and what you say is true, What then is the worst case scenario in outcome for someone like me?
We continue to live full happy lives according to our own choices, being convinced through weighing our own investigation instead of accepting the cloud covered truth you are focused a different direction, looking away from truth as give by self appointed filters of you own thought!
And while upholding an ideal role model and being an influence of light in the darkest of days. A role model who's ways are higher than our ways. And His Wisdom are ways of peace. If everyone thought with Standards Jesus raised would it be so dark out?
It's the people who live for nothing have no standard of Maximum Excellence to uphold as a standard of measure to at least strive to reach. Then what happens to the general public in the growth of bitter darkness as light is being removed?
Did you ever hear in Revelations, He will free the worst demons from the pit in the last days. A also it says a bag of gold can't buy a piece of bread. - I'm sure it will eventually end in physical destruction, but first this is the judhement, right now you can't find truth easily, as a matter of fact it's going to cost Christians everything to give it, making truth so scarce a bag of gold can't by bread, the Truth, Faith in Jesus, the Bread of Life. Do you see the signs?
There was a time a hand shake and peoples word mattered. Truth mattered.
It was shocking, not the norm for news to be alarming. Certainty not electable to be a known conspirator. With low character standards are all of a sudden grown to its darkest potential.
So you now have humanity taking the image of the beast. We were at Pinnochio's Fun Fair riding rides and partying, and we are growing tales and ears and becoming a world in maximum decline why? "Because they worshiped and served the image of animals, so God gave them over to their wills, and the recieved his mark.
Honestly give thought, when everyone is overtaken by everyones own will, what is the projected outcome if truth and light were scarce or eliminated?
How dark do you think it actually can get?
Hello Wake up, it's pretty dark out now. You don't acrually think it's going to get brighter, do you?
If you do that's unreasonable faith in fairy tales! I'm telling you now, there has already been judgement poured out like a flood, and it's outcome is those in darkness that refuse light will go further into deep darkness of lies and Deceptions.
Deceptions with winds of wrath icing hearts, and soon the door will be closed. And you won't even know it.
So if I'm right there is a consequence you are being warned about, but accepting lies without the challenge of Truth will eventually seal your fate
"No ill look at anything you give me. I've read most all of your arguments, its just were having like 5 different conversations at once so its hard to keep them organized sometimes and forgive me if I missed something. But yeah ill hear literally any argument you wanna submit to me. However that doesnt mean im not gonna rebut those arguments. And just because i'm rebutting those arguments doesnt mean im refusing to look at your proof. quite the contrary, im looking at it in detail using skepticism and disputing it according to what i do know.
You want proof in your little box.
Well i want proof that is actually proof. Not just what you claim to be proof but is really riddled with fallacies or just straight up non factual information, or is just simply not proof.
When i ask, "how do you know the world flooded?" for example, and you then cite me the bible verse saying how the world flooded that isnt proof it happened. Thats the origin of the claim.
It would be like someone asking "how do you know harry potter actually exists?" And i cite the passage where Hagrid says "youre a wizard harry" as proof. That isnt proof its just words in a book. i can write down anything i want it doesnt make it true even if its in a 2000 year old book. In fact considering how poor literacy and scientific literacy was 2000 years ago id say the age of the bible is more of a testament AGAINST its validity than for it.
^^^^^^^
Let's start then atleast an openness to a discussion. But if proof really matters to you, then you need to weigh proof, and challenge to expose lies for yourself.
With your own lense and filters, with an open mind.
Truth won't always be present and knocking. What if it becomes rare to even find truth?
Many approach truth, just to produce challenges for contention.
It's easy to find people with non sense arguments focused away from truth that leads to drink. They are set on defense of doctrines, but they don't know they happen to be in the flood with you.
What if after a short time a cloud hides truth from sight, and you can't find it, so its worth becomes a bag of gold?
Truth be told, they're voice are becoming one noise, just one of many being swept away by the flood of lies and deceptions.
So then, What if your window is short for the ability to find truth and to be challenged is short, before the door is shut?
You may not have many opportunities left before the door is shut, where God is making His appeals to your logical mind, like He did for Thomas, in the Bible.
So while pondering points of our discussions, at least view some of the support pieces I give you, to determine their value of consideration, weigh it with an active consideration. Since in the long run, you have more to loose than people like me if your wrong and I'm right..
I can understand if you find that after given a few support pieces, if you find many of my support pieces can be easily dismissed as non sense, and not worth any consider toward building a case thatcould potentially challenge your position with reasonable proof of God not just unreasonable nonsense.
Honestly I would't waste your time if I didn't value the support references.
It's not like I pull just anything off the Internet and throw it out there as support.
The question is if you had more reasons to believe, than not believe, then is that at least worthwile to base truth on facts and truth instead of not deception and lies.
This is the real deal of this debate, If your right, and what you say is true, What then is the worst case scenario in outcome for someone like me?
We continue to live full happy lives according to our own choices, being convinced through weighing our own investigation instead of accepting the cloud covered truth you are focused a different direction, looking away from truth as give by self appointed filters of you own thought!
And while upholding an ideal role model and being an influence of light in the darkest of days. A role model who's ways are higher than our ways. And His Wisdom are ways of peace. If everyone thought with Standards Jesus raised would it be so dark out?
It's the people who live for nothing have no standard of Maximum Excellence to uphold as a standard of measure to at least strive to reach. Then what happens to the general public in the growth of bitter darkness as light is being removed?
Did you ever hear in Revelations, He will free the worst demons from the pit in the last days. A also it says a bag of gold can't buy a piece of bread. - I'm sure it will eventually end in physical destruction, but first this is the judhement, right now you can't find truth easily, as a matter of fact it's going to cost Christians everything to give it, making truth so scarce a bag of gold can't by bread, the Truth, Faith in Jesus, the Bread of Life. Do you see the signs?
There wad a time not long ago that a hand shake and peoples word mattered, it was shocking not the norm and ceryainly not electable to be anope conspirator, and character standars are all of a sudden grown to its darkest potential.
So you now have humanity taking the image of the beast. We were at Pinnochio's Fun Fair riding rides and partying, and we are growing tales and ears and becoming a world in maximum decline why? " Because they worshiped and served the image of animals, so God gave them over to their wills, and the recieved his mark.
Honestly give thought, when everyone is overtaken by everyones own will, what is the projected outcome if truth and light were scarce or eliminated?
How dark do you think it actually can get?
Hello Wake up, it's pretty dark out now. You don't acrually think it's going to get brighter, do you?
If you do that's unreasonable faith in fairy tales! I'm telling you now, there has already been judgement poured out like a flood, and it's outcome is those in darkness that refuse light will go further into deep darkness of lies and Deceptions.
Deceptions with winds of wrath icing hearts, and soon the door will be closed. And you won't even know it.
So if I'm right there is a consequence you are being warned about, but accepting lies without the challenge of Truth will eventually seal your fate
You can have reasonable proof, and He will bear witness to Himself, if your heart is good and willing. But if you choose lies I warn you these are the days I don't know how much more time he will give before He closes Heavens truth, so you won't see the light of day any more. So you may want to atleast investigate truth.
"You should always question your beliefs. Over and over and over. Never stop questioning. People were also convinced of nazism. People are convinced of islam. People are convinced of a lot of wrong stuff and perhaps if they ever stopped to examine it theyd begin to see holes in their ideologies."
No you shouldn't always question your beliefs, why would you invest the time to know convincing faith, to then question your beliefs. I didn't conclude my beliefs by decieving myself with a false hope like some mental decisiveness. Why would I deny my experience of God? That's like questioning your marriage every time you too busy to have gooey feelings. That's the dumbest thing I ever heard.
When I say I'm convinced of faith, you actually dont understand what that entails.
I guess what you don't get, is He does show Himself.
But you need to start in the 1st steps in seeking truth.
Start there 1st.
And another thing you don't understand without faith it is impossible to please God. He can appear to you, and you can believe for moments, but what last stronger in your memory, something you can see, or something you understand?
Do you remember the smell of your grandmother's kitchen, or the color of the kitchen walls? Another thing you don't realize is out of sight out of mind. God dwells in our understanding not our vision. You can dismiss easily something you saw, but you can't easily dismissed what you see in understanding.
Seek Him and get understanding then you will know Him, and new convinced through understanding
No you shouldn't always question your beliefs, why would you invest the time to know convincing faith, to then question your beliefs.
Because no matter how convinced you are YOU COULD BE WRONG. Everything we know at any time could be incorrect. We should always question every single belief we have. Thats why science never declares facts. It creates theories because it knows that at some point it could be surpassed by a better theory.
I didn't conclude my beliefs by decieving myself with a false hope like some mental decisiveness.
No thats not what im saying. But false hope can be a compelling reason to adhere to those beliefs. These are contributing factors not necessarily causes.
Why would I deny my experience of God?
Because i might not actually have been a legitimate experience of god. Maybe you hallucinated it. Maybe you remember it wrong. Maybe you were just reading into things. There are a hundred thousand other possible causes for that experience. Yet youve landed on the most unlikely one of them all and you hold to it like glue. You can still believe it if you want or if youre really convinced of it. But like i said before no matter how much any of us are convinced of anything our human brains are falliable machines. They make errors. So its foolish to not even acknowledge the possibility that youre wrong.
That's like questioning your marriage every time you too busy to have gooey feelings
At least marriages are real tangible things in reality that we can examine. And why shouldnt people question their marriages? Many do and the marriage ends in divorce, many do and it strengthens their marriage even more. Marriages are not sacred things that ought never to be questioned. Theyre human social constructions that we have full control over.
When I say I'm convinced of faith, you actually dont understand what that entails.
I have a good idea. Im convinced the earth is a sphere. To even suggest something alternative to that is completely idiotic in my mind. i cant fathom a reality in which the earth is not a sphere. You feel that way about god. Youre absolutely positive he exists. In your mind him not existing doesnt make sense.
But the muslim feels that way too..
And the jews are positive that jesus was NOT god.
and every other genuinely religious person ever felt this same exact sureness.
So i believe youre sincerely convinced, but no matter how absolutely convinced you assure me you are it really isnt persuasive to me at all.
I guess what you don't get, is He does show Himself.
Maybe youre wrong. Maybe youve misinterpreted those signs when he "shows himself" which is really just obscure coincidences and never an actual vision of god or hearing his audible voice.
And never to me. At least never in a way where i could be ABSOLUTELY CERTAIN beyond a reasonable doubt that it was god and not just one of said coincidences.
But you need to start in the 1st steps in seeking truth.
Start there 1st.
Which as youve told me requires me basically just will myself to believe theres a god and THEN he will actually give me the evidence he exists. And my brain simply wont do that. I cant just will myself to believe in god. So that being said i guess he will never give me any evidence. Which kind of makes him a dick if he actually loves me and wants to save me from hell (that he created).
And another thing you don't understand without faith it is impossible to please God. He can appear to you, and you c an believe for moments, but what last stronger in your memory, something you can see, or something you understand?
It would cease to be faith the second he showed himself to you. Because then youd have evidence so it wouldnt be faith anymore it would just be knowledge.
but i digress, sorry faith is just a silly concept to me.
Do you remember the smell of your grandmother's kitchen, or the color of the kitchen walls?
That is the most ridiculous analogy ive ever heard. I mean i kind of understand where youre going with it but why is god appearing to you the color of the kitchen walls? That would be like remembering when grandma baked a 10 foot tall cake full of every flavor ice cream. Like, the creme de la creme of memories.
Another thing you don't realize is out of sight out of mind. God dwells in our understanding not our vision. You can dismiss easily something you saw, but you can't easily dismissed what you see in understanding.
No i can still easily dismiss what i understand. Because any thing i understand i "understand". As in i only THINK i understand something at any given time. Something i see however is pretty hard to rationalize. Like if a giant ball of light appeared in my room and jesus walked out and dapped me up like "whats up my nig?" and we smoked a fat blunt and then he flew away. That would be damn near impossible to just forget or rationalize. As long as i knew i didnt take any trippy ass drugs or something how could i explain that other than what i saw?
Seek Him and get understanding then you will know Him, and new convinced through understanding
All I ask is that you look at what I share so you can determine truth for yourself.
Ive read all your arguments dude. And the one guy you cited ive told you im already familiar with his arguments and his content. What have you provided that i have not responded to in explicit detail?
I never said follow me, I said follow truth, but you have to investigate till you are convinced.
Ive been following truth my whole life. Ive explored your theology and the arguments that christian apologists provide. Ive researched the historical aspect and heard arguments from the scientific community and what evidence they bring to the table and the christian science community and what evidence it provides.
And i have concluded that god probably, almost certainly doesnt exist, at least not how christians conceive of god.
Or that's a sin of omission and even worse omission by choice.
Its a sin if i conclude differently than you. But that means nothing to me
I'm telling you, judgement has been poured.
Yeah thats not persuasive at all
And if your blessed He will show you
But if you don't look you won't know till it's too late.
But god could make it so there is no "too late". But he doesnt. So god is a dick
And you will not be able to find truth it will be so dark you won't be able to see it.
Spooky
And if I didn't, then I had some unexplained experiences
And that is probably an indication of spiritual forces
No. No it absolutely is not an indication of spiritual forces you gullible fool.
And if there are spiritual forces than there is a God
But what if i seek and conclude that he probably doesnt exist? I sought, did research, did the whole christian thing. I was christian for years. And after looking and learning over the 13 years since i could even conceive of the concept of god, i conclude he probably doesnt exist. I conclude your religion is one of MANY that all claim the same thing yet deliver nothing conclusive in the way of evidence.
Wow man so persuasive . I love how you finally gave me evidence . it wait you still haven't given me any reason to take you seriously.
I was a Christian for 16 years. I gave "truth" a try and I decided it wasn't truth it was just nonsense told to adults to keep them in line like mental children
Many people study the Bible and don't understand it.
So at 16 years old I am not likely to give you a sticker for completion, and in investigation, you limit investigation by disregarding evidence.
Your stand is nothing more than a mistrial due to a bias in selection of evidence. Unless you are willing to investigate all evidence, then your choosing truth based on what you want truth to be.
Your only selective for a version of "truth" in line with ear tickling
You only review evidence that seemingly agrees with your predetermined box, a narrow peephole view at best.
But truth is your creation, but know your truth is not truth.
Because truth isn't what built it, all the way down to your foundation.
Truth of choice isn't truth!
Seek you will find, if you don't the door will be closed to you!
If you decided to unplug your ears, you'd be able to hear then I will discuss evidence.. But isn't it a waste of time if you look away from evidence and look at it from the eyes that don't exist on the back of your head?
It is not likely and is not usual - as a matter of fact it is HIGHLY unlikely and EXTREMELY unusual!!
Here is part of the historical event of Steven's Martyrdom
Notice his stoners coats were laid at Saul's feet.
Saul after murdering Christiand, has an unusual transformation and personally experienced an encounter with the Risen Jesus.
Saul goes from killing them to the greatest winner of souls. And by those actions fullfills PROPHESY!! And his dramatic conversion pushes the gospel out from his own countrymen to Gentiles, (other Nation other than Israel) and is well know even from those he was in league with while severely persecuting Christians.
Matt 24
14“This gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all the nations, and then the end will come.
Isaiah 11
10 "And in that day there shall be a Root of Jesse, who shall stand as a banner to the people; for the Gentiles shall seek Him, and His resting place shall be glorious."
.
So like it, or not this IS reasonable evidence, and along with 2000 prophesies that have already been fulfilled in detail!
With only 500 to go, and some of those are in process!
Evidence FOR GOD is mounting!!!
Stephen was martyred as murders placed their coats at Saul's feet.
SAUL Later became PAUL, and went on to become a valiant Appostle of the faith he was a murderer in war against Christians!
What changed?
Acts 7
51 “You men who are stiff-necked and uncircumcised in heart and ears are always resisting the Holy Spirit; you are doing just as your fathers did. 52 Which one of the prophets did your fathers not persecute? They killed those who had previously announced the coming of the Righteous One, whose betrayers and murderers you have now become; 53 you who received the law as ordained by angels, and yet did not keep it.”
54 Now when they heard this, they were cut to the quick, and they began gnashing their teeth at him. 55 But being full of the Holy Spirit, he gazed intently into heaven and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing at the right hand of God; 56 and he said, “Behold, I see the heavens opened up and the Son of Man standing at the right hand of God.” 57 But they cried out with a loud voice, and covered their ears and rushed at him with one impulse. 58 When they had driven him out of the city, they began stoning him; and the witnesses laid aside their robes at the feet of a young man named Saul. 59 They went on stoning Stephen as he called on the Lord and said, “Lord Jesus, receive my spirit!” 60 Then falling on his knees, he cried out with a loud voice, “Lord, do not hold this sin against them!” Having said this, he fell asleep.
Well the gospels are eye witness accounts and actual biography.
Most historians confirm this.
The question for the skeptic really lies in the belief of Resurection and other miracles.
But as a Biography, that isn't disputable by any reasonable argument.
And there also has been forensic analysis done that would make the 4 gospels written collaborating the detailed stories impossible.
If you take 2 executives, brainy people of modern day, and they set out a conspiracy, (without luxury of government coverups - as in Hillary) But just executives frauding people, and caught and under investigation, a series of questions would detail inconsistencies that are indications of lies in testimony.
So just 2 people in short term with details of 1 thread of events would likely unravel.
And that's not the case with the 4 gospels, a forensic would confirm it, many have. 1 in particular has, and he started as a passionate atheist, and after months of review determined these were true eyewitness accounts.
Here is a quick clips from an atheist turned Christian through investigation. - 16 minute clip
Well the gospels are eye witness accounts and actual biography.
Most historians confirm this.
1. The gospels CLAIM To be eye witness accounts. Can we verify that? No.
2. The gospels CLAIM To be biography. Can we verify that? No.
3. No most historians do NOT confirm that. Some flat out reject the bible as nearly all mythological. That is a flat out lie.
The question for the skeptic really lies in the belief of Resurection and other miracles.
But as a Biography, that isn't disputable by any reasonable argument.
I JUST disputed that. If it were verified absolutely 100% proven eye witness account maybe you would have something. But i would then counter argue that its possible they misinterpreted what they saw. Its possible they embellished what they saw. Its possible they hallucinated what they saw. All 3 are FAR more likely than that what they saw actually happened in real life.
Occams razer. Google it.
And there also has been forensic analysis done that would make the 4 gospels written collaborating the detailed stories impossible.
Lmao ok please cite that. id love to see how the forensically proved that these people were telling the truth. News flash: if you had forensic proof of the the bibles claims you would no longer need faith or the bible.
If you take 2 executives, brainy people of modern day, and they set out a conspiracy, (without luxury of government coverups - as in Hillary) But just executives frauding people, and caught and under investigation, a series of questions would detail inconsistencies that are indications of lies in testimony.
So just 2 people in short term with details of 1 thread of events would likely unravel.
And that's not the case with the 4 gospels, a forensic would confirm it, many have. 1 in particular has, and he started as a passionate atheist, and after months of review determined these were true eyewitness accounts.
How the fuck could you ever prove that without being there? Do you have the bodies of the gospel writers? No. So you cant prove they actually existed. You dont have ANYTHING. All this clown did is read the bible and make up a bunch of bullshit arguments to justify it. He didnt do any kind of anthropological research. He didnt dig up any cross confirming evidence or extrabiblical evidence.
Here is a quick clips from an atheist turned Christian through investigation. - 16 minute clip
They are eyewitness accounts by my own investigation.
Authenticity of the Gospels
I took the account of "Jesus' last words" that are disputes of atheist, and I noticed an element that shows their positioning in the crowd, from the court to Golgotha.
All four are eyewitness accounts.
I took out a pen and paper and detailed just the trial and cross. I did it from each prespective. From it, I can literally tell you where they were standing!
Their eyes telling details told me.
Matt. He was a paranoid scared emotional mess that day.
. 1 - He tells details of Judas, like he was lerking in that area without the other three writers.
.... a) So the Pharisees I'd assume were conspiring together, probably all in one section. So if Judas really returned the silver, was distraught, then later found hung himself.
.... b) And if the details Matt gives about the court room seem to be from what he can observe from lerking around behind the area the Pharisees were, then there is a pretty good chance it's an eyewitness prespective of the court room
. 2 - John was with Mary, the whole time. Mary being the mother of Jesus wasn't running and hiding.
.... a) Mary was inside the court room. John was with her, comforting her, while everyone else was hiding.
.... b) So he is the best most detailed one on details from a ring side seat prespective. And not of the conversations of people outside the court room.
.... c) So his details at court, as well as the cross are the details are from a prespective one one would record as if sitting up front.
.... d) It's the same at the cross.
. 3 - So in the court room, John records testimonies and details as if the center hall was in his plain view.
. 4 - At the foot of the cross Jesus is having conversations with John
.... a) No others record personal conversations of Jesus from the cross.
.... b) Others record loud statements heard as if in the crowd
.... c) John records what he can hear because of his position.
.... d) John records "I am thirsty, the others mention Jesus
calling out a statement loudly, then people running around putting vinegar on a sponge giving Jesus a sponge of bitter
wine to drink. But it doesn't match what the statement was, it's like unmatched. These other guys hear a statement, then record actions that don't match what was heard loudly from in the noisy crowd!
.... e) But John records I am thirsty. And them running around giving Him this awful drink.
Every piece tells where all of these men are, and not one is
even trying to tell anther prespective.
And I can go point by point on all four
. 5 - Matthew says - the two thieves were yelling insults.
.... a) Matt goes on and on about people shouting insults. You can really get in Matt's head, it's like his focus is on the screaming so he was in that frame of mind, and in the midst of a hostile crowd.
.... b) If Matthew was on the far left of the thieves. He may only be able to make out some of what the left thief was saying. But could visibly see the thief on the right side yelling back.
.... c) Matthew seems to be on a rant as he mentions the list of people all around him hurling insults, and recants them as if the injustice is beyond reason, he seems to be in shock of it all, and emotionally agitated.
. 6 - Luke seems to be more toward the cross on the right side of Jesus, and can hear the thief on the leftt insulting, and the the thief on the right side of Jesus defending Jesus.
.... a) But it's not a discrepancy, it's the opposite, it fills it prespective of eyewitness like recounts of any event, if you add up all the parts, or better yet create a scene with puzzle pieces of prespectives, you can picture it exactly as it was, as each wrote it from where they personally were during the event.
. 7 - Mark is the only one who records Joseph, the rich guy who donated the tomb, needing to get up "enough courage to request the body of Jesus post mortum"
.... a ) Mark, being somewhat connected to Peter was probably with Peter and the wealthy man named Joseph, on thr edge of the crowd, off to the side just off the street where people were not engaged in the event, but passing by in their everyday routine.
.... b) Mark records more "passers-by material,"
.... c) Even with the details of the trial for Mark are from a distanced observer.
.... d) If Mark was or wasn't an eyewitness could go either way, either he was there as Peter's sidekick hanging with Peter, and writing as more of Peter's prespective being in Peter's circle, and influenced by Peter's prespective by association. Or he wasn't there and recounted details as Peter gave.
------------------
I was amazed when I did it myself, I have determined that historians even biblical scholars complicate things. The professional peer pressure is a likely factor in their declarations. We all need to be scholars. We cannot take anything at face value in these last days.
A flood of deceptions are poured out in maximum proportions. This is by blinding judgement from God. Giving people over to their deceptions, sin, and flesh, all consuming with a gravitational pull that up till recent years has been lifted for some ability to reach out of the dust, and follow the light to the Way of Truth and Salvation. The gravitational pull of the blackhole of Sheol is the end of man.
In the end will lock and seal them under the law and under the "serpent's belly." The serpent is the prosecutor and jailer. Imprisoning all dust and flesh under him.
Only those made righteous through the work of Jesus, providing the Ark to escape being swept away as by flood, through the Ark of the Covenant, through the way of the cross and the resurection.
I went to these accounts myself to answer skeptic criticism of the Gospel accounts validity as eyewitnesses.
Just taking this one event, the biggest event in the Gospels. I found all four written, each with a different prespective from their vantage point of where they were standing or walking during the event.
I detailed each Gospel account during the trial and crucifixtion of Jesus. I could literally see the event from their unique prespectives, of their individual vantage point of where they were standing. And by what they could see, and not see.
And what they could hear, and not hear. And what was going on around them according to their proximity and their placement during the entire event from the court up to the last breath of Jesus.
I could clearly see their frame of mind, their personalities, their memory with their emotions of that particular day seen in their writing of the details, and their mental state on that day, their response to a variety of elements that they each separately experienced that day.
This was one time where they were scattered, one time where each would have the most differences in their experience, because being scattered gave each a different vantage point all together because of their unique placements during this event.
Whereas the other chapters of each Gospel are more personality and prespective as from within the group. The trial and cross were actual prespective by their presence and placement during the event, separated from being together within the group.
In my opinion, what "they" say is not the final determination limiting my own responsibility to think. Secular and even many Bible scholars" are guessing, or playing the professional peer review game.
Some conclude what they want to conclude, what they intend to spin as truth, regardless of actual truth. Some are afraid of all their professional peers. And most blogs and sites for or against the authenticity of eyewitness in the Gospels are just a mimick of either version they want to use to support their own views.
--------
So I studied for myself, and found this question of eyewitness authenticity answers itself right in the biblical text itself. By a little reading comprehension, contextual inference, and common sense, the writer shows us who exactly were the eyes of each of the Gospel accounts are.
The court and cross accounts in each Gospel is unique because they weren't viewing the event together as a group.
They were scattered, this portion of the Gospel is written from a more unique and per individual prespective. The disciples were completely separated out of the group, and either hiding alone, or with just a few of the others. We can see that difference in throughout this event specifically.
John was inside the courthouse area with Mary, and at the foot of the cross with Mary.
John was going through this day at Mary's pace, managing Mary's grief, along side her all day.
Luke was the second closest, still hanging low, but his vantage point was inside the court area, but on the side toward where the people exited headed to Galgatha. Luke caught many details of the court case, and also caught some side conversations, after Jesus was sentenced in the court area and also while Jesus was being lead to Golgotha.
Matthew was behind where the Pharisees were, and was outside of the court room, opposite side of were Luke was.
And Mark was not in the court area close enough to detail testimonies or the commotion after the sentencing.
Mark was likely hanging low with Peter, and also along with the rich man named Joseph, who donated his tomb.
Mark's account shows he was likely with Peter and Joseph, the tomb gifter. The account is described as if it were from prespective of one on the furthest edge of the entire event, yet within proximity to record them from a prespective of one standing further away from the action that the other three.
Mark's prespective is from by the road side, where people were going past. Passing through the commotion while going about their daily routine.
Most of Mark's comments are as if from a prespective of watching it all from an area where people passing through, and not where people were in huddled together as spectators inside the crowd. "Passing by" and "shaking their heads." And not from in the midst of the crowd, noise, and chaos.
Mark writes Jesus' criminal sentencing and the crucifixion as recounted by a prespective of one close enough to see the activity outside the courthouse, and hearing bits as people went by them, on the road to Golgotha, but not close enough to record the details of testimonies and conversations.
At the trial John sat with Mary inside the court room, a premium seat. And at the cross, John was directly in front of the cross.
Luke made it to Galgatha before John and Mary. So you can imagine that Mary was an emotional wreck, and John moved at her lead as he comforted her.
Luke made it down to where they were erecting the cross to its upright position before John. He catches Jesus saying Father forgive them ... and also the conversation Jesus had with the thief on the right side.
Luke was standing closer to the thief on the right side. And also seems to be in the mist of a less noisy crowd compared to Matthew's position. Mark pretty much stayed in the business road, at the outer edge or outside of the crowd.
Matthew was standing on the far side of the left side thief, and in the midst of a noisy hostile crowd.
Pfffft by your own investigation. So you went back in time and proved they are real eye witness accounts? Please. As for the rest im not reading a novel, 75% of which is just bible verses and for the upteenth time bible verses are the claim not the evidence. You citing them proves nothing aside from the bible says what it says.
If you want to have a discourse please make clear and suscinct arguments i can actually respond to.
NEAR death. Guess what happens when you have an experience like that? Your body goes into shock. Your brain goes into shock. So many chemicals in your brain are pumping and you hallucinate. There are so many factors to consider.
And keep in mind this is ONE anecdote.
It would be really impressive if every person who has a near death experience sees god or jesus or a white light. But that is totally not the case. Some see jesus, some see muhammad, some see absolute darkness, some see a light, some see thier family, some see trippy colors, some just have really bizarre dreams about nothing in particular.
Theres countless contradictory accounts.
This is the most pathetic piece of evidence youve presented to me thusfar
Is there a place in the speed of light where time stands still?
Is God known as Light?
Does He give Eternal Life?
Did anyone writing the Bible understand the speed of light, or was that a scientific realization of modern day?
Then how or why would light and eternal life and Omnipresence meaning every where at once and Omniscience, knowing all things past present and future, why do you think light and these characteristics of the person who IS Light would somehow appear together, as characteristics found in God, who is The Light?
Again did these ancient writers understand the science of Light?
Without faith it is impossible to please God. He can appear to you, and you can believe for moments and you may think if He did then I'd believe.
But, what last stronger in your memory, something you can see, or something you understand?
Do you remember the smell of your grandmother's kitchen, or do you remember the color of the kitchen walls?
Out of sight, out of mind. God dwells in our understanding not our vision. So He is always before our eyes!
You can dismiss easily something you saw, but you can't easily dismissed what you see in understanding.
Seek Him and get understanding then you will know Him, and yo can be convinced through understanding
Those thoughts that stood out to me they were thoughts in my understanding, and God answered them through revelation in my understanding
No one comes to the Son unless the Father draws them.
No one is revealed the Son unless the Father reveals Him.
It's His kindness that leads us to repentance.
Shine the Glory of Jesus like the Sun, only the Spirit of God can honor the faint peep of please Lord save me, and only He can stretch out His hand and save them.
So you can dismiss what you see and you agree that the mind of many cannot comprehend the spirit of god. So you cant understand him and you cant understand what you see. So....what can you do? Youre starting to contradict yourself and really nothing you say at all makes any sense. Its all fluffy religious nonsense so ill end with this. You dont know what you think you know. You dont have full understanding of reality. And no matter how convinced you think you are the truth is going to elude you if you dont seriously examine your beliefs with some objectivity.
Your not that dense are you? It's pitch black out there isn't it?
In our spirit He speaks mysteries, He gives us understanding!
The below scripture says He speaks mysteries in our spirits.
He gives understanding, illumination, and revelations.
We can't give our understanding away. Its a spiritual understanding. We can prophesy out of it, but the Spirit needs to give eyes of understanding.
People with faith in Jesus can lead you to a place to get understanding yourself.
But you'll never reach truth your honestly willing at minimum challenge your defensive arguments that selectively challenge your position. You apply the weakest points to your objections.
That's not an equal level to present any challenge.
Don't fool yourself, your not fooling anyone.
1 Corinthians 14
Pursue love, yet desire earnestly spiritual gifts, but especially that you may prophesy. 2 For one who speaks in a tongue does not speak to men but to God; for no one understands, but in his spirit he speaks mysteries. 3 But one who prophesies speaks to men for edification and exhortation and consolation.
What I said is the natural minds can't understand God. That's not where God
If God does exist, He calls being double minded harlotry.
So since I'm convinced, I'm not interested in offending God.
You have a short window to seek Truth and to be one that is Sealed with the Holy Spirit.
He is marking us now, those who are taking the image of the beast are doing so now.
I'm warning you, the door is going to shut!
Revelation 7
After this I saw four angels standing at the four corners of the earth, holding back the four winds of the earth, so that no wind would blow on the earth or on the sea or on any tree.
2 And I saw another angel ascending from the rising of the sun, having the seal of the living God; and he cried out with a loud voice to the four angels to whom it was granted to harm the earth and the sea, 3 saying, “Do not harm the earth or the sea or the trees until we have sealed the bond-servants of our God on their foreheads.”
You say you would want proof if anyone can show it, and if God will show you. Then you put your fingers into your ears and scream na, na, na, na, na, na, na, na, nonsense!
You don't want to know, otherwise you would be open to investigate.
Start with Patterns of Evidence, then we can discuss a Book made credible by truth, instead of believing lies that discredit.
How can we discuss truth, and prove anything without a foundation of agreement in credibility of the Book 1st?
Because you dont provide evidence you provide bible verses and fluffy bullshit arguments that are easy to debunk and counter with 3rd grade philosophy and logic.
Just because you present me something doesnt mean i have to gobble it up and accept it like a good little boy. Im gonna test it. Im gonna rebut it. Im gonna throw everything i can at it. And thats what we SHOULD do. Science is all about tearing a hypothesis apart with everything you can. If it holds up at the end of it all then we can say that its a pretty damn good hypothesis. Same with your arguments. If there is no way to counter them or rebut them or debunk them, if theyre just so solid they cant be torn down then theyre good arguments. Unfortunately for you theyre painfully easy to poke holes in and debunk.
Because theyre not good arguments
I do want to know. I want to know the real answer. Youre assuming by me saying "i want to know" that its me saying "i want to believe". No. i dont want to believe. i want to know whether god is real OR NOT. There are 2 possible answers. I dont want to just jump on the believer train before ive exhausted all other possibilities. Thats how using critical thought works.
Lmao lies that discredit it. Its a book that says 2 of every animal made it from all over the world onto one boat that doesnt have the dimensions to hold them all. They survived weeks with no food and predators and prey just didnt eat eachother. Then they somehow got back to their respective habitats and 2 of each animal inbred to recreate the entire population.
How can we discuss truth, and prove anything without a foundation of agreement in credibility of the Book 1st?
Youre right! We should start with the credibility of the first book: it has none. There ya go.
Its a big book of claims. It contains no evidence for anything it claims. So you need evidence from outside of it to prove it. But there is no evidence outside of it.
Do you want to know, or don't you?
Do YOU? Or are you just so comfortable in your delusion that any thought of abandoning faith seems mentally painful? You believe in absolute nonsense dude. Some part of you has to know that.
82 scientist got together with mathmatical equations and developed a list of minimal required expectations, and scientific properties that would have to exist or have occurred in order to have any reasonable expectations of the existence of alien life.
Randomness did not create, you need information to make DNA.
Evolution takes more faith in nothing and Randomness then faith needed for belief in God. At least you can prove God with common sense and reasoning. Evolution is ridiculous!
If evolution were true we would have life forms sprouting out of nothing all day.
What is it like hair dye, it stopped after it evolved so far because nothing is intelligent?
And aside from changing properties for adaptation there is only things growing with an intelligent designer. Scientists putting together to make. That's still not random nothing!
Look at the Giraffe. How did evolution work backward from a dead body? Their long neck getting water needs a valve that would necessitate it's survival. A valve it would be dead before knowing it needed. There are many animals that evolution could not be possible. Because of the process, unless you can evolve from dead and from nothing!
You need amino acids to make proteins. You need molecules to make amino acids. You need elements to make molucules. Elements have existed since there were the earliest stars.
Do the math. Elements can form into molecules without any intelligence needed. Molucules form amino acids on their own without any intelligence needed. Amino acids form into proteins without any intelligence needed. All of these things are proven by repeated experimentation.
Evolution takes more faith in nothing and Randomness then faith needed for belief in God.
Wrong. It takes no faith, just reading the evidence. God takes full faith because there is no evidence to test and confirm.
At least you can prove God with common sense and reasoning. Evolution is ridiculous!
Then why havent you proven him? Also "common sense" isnt a thing. Its not evidence or an argument. Its utterly meaningless. "Common sense" tells you a bunch of myths from the bronze age are true and theres a magic invisible man in the sky? Yeah thats why the "common" folk are stupid sheep. So you csn have your common sense ill stick with the uncommon sense to follow the actual evidence.
If evolution were true we would have life forms sprouting out of nothing all day.
We do. Ask anyone who studies bacteria. They multiply so fast we can see populations change over short periods of days.
And evolution doesnt say life spawns from nothing. Maybe youre so against evolution because you literally have no fucking idea what the theory actually says.
Life emerging from non life (non life being not "nothing") is called abiogenesis. Evolution is species changing over time. A LONG period of time. Millions of years for populations to change.
What is it like hair dye, it stopped after it evolved so far because nothing is intelligent?
Reread that back to yourself and tell me if thats even a coherent sentence.
And aside from changing properties for adaptation
So you DO know what evolution means! Then why do you keep asking stupid questions?
there is only things growing with an intelligent designer.
Which you cant prove and just assert exists without any proof.
Scientists putting together to make. That's still not random nothing!
Again, what the hell does this mean?
Look at the Giraffe. How did evolution work backward from a dead body? Their long neck getting water needs a valve that would necessitate it's survival. A valve it would be dead before knowing it needed
A long neck doesnt prevent it from drinking you idiot. Just google giraffe drinking. But what it does is allow them to eat the leaves high up in trees. Thats the advantage of the neck. And what the hell do you mean work backward from a dead body?
There are many animals that evolution could not be possible. Because of the process, unless you can evolve from dead and from nothing!
Theyre all possible through evolution because they all evolved. All life is evolved and continues to evolve.
The fuck do you mean evolve from dead? You mean abiogenesis? Because abiogenesis =/= evolution. They are not the same.
DNA is a combination of code that is not mathematically possible in even a small sense.
The creating of life is not possible without intelligent design.
Every law in science tells evolution is not possible.
The only ones who are foolish enough to buy it are basically science cooks. Take tomatoes sauce mozzarella and chicken and you can make chicken parmigian.
So we throw things together by some knowledge and intelligence, and we unite them with the helping hand of a science chef, and wow it happens to grow together.
So then let's pretend that can happen with no chef. And then call it evolution.
And ignore math and all other science principles because we want to insult the Creator with random nothingness, which I'm pretty sure would not be a wise thought in the end.
DNA is a combination of code that is not mathematically possible in even a small sense.
It exists. Therefore it is possible.
The creating of life is not possible without intelligent design.
Baseless assertion
Every law in science tells evolution is not possible.
Except for the law of natural selection...and all the rest of them.
The only ones who are foolish enough to buy it are basically science cooks.
Yeah 99% of scientists are just cooks. Immunologists who make your vaccines are cooks. Literally everything we know about biology is based on evolution.
Take tomatoes sauce mozzarella and chicken and you can make chicken parmigian.
Wow brilliant counterargument.
So we throw things together by some knowledge and intelligence, and we unite them with the helping hand of a science chef, and wow it happens to grow together.
You mean we do research and test the theory over and over and over and it has never once been shown to be disproven?
So then let's pretend that can happen with no chef. And then call it evolution.
Yeah scientists one day just decided to pretend theres no god. Give me a break. Darwin did DECADES of research and we have only built upon it. Populations change over time. Fact. Period. End of story.
And ignore math
The fuck does that even mean? Youre just making up shit now. "Evolution ignores math!"
"What math?"
"Ya know. Math, numbers, calculations,"
So transparently made up
and all other science principles because we want to insult the Creator with random nothingness, which I'm pretty sure would not be a wise thought in the end.
You do realize when darwin set out on his research he did so to PROVE gods existence and prove he created the world right? Many evolutionary biologists studied life for the same reason. So this theory that they did so to mock god is just idiotic. We know thats obviously false.
Evolution is the basis of all of modern biology. People have been vehememtly opposed to it for over a century and have attempted to disprove it countless times. It has held up to all scrutiny. Theres no scientific conspiracy. And just think about how sad an argument that is. When you have literally no argument or leg to stand on so you resort to claiming your opponent is part of a conspiracy. I mean cmon dude, thats so weak.
Not random at all. Matter is governed by physical laws. Those physical laws are not random. I just explained how matter down to the simplest elements have physical properties that cause them to bind all on their own with no intelligent agent required.
Theres countless records of data and experimentation to pour through on the topic of evolution. Its the most established theory in all of science. We know more about evolution than we know about gravity.
Nothing has been proven! What you call proof is accepted as proof.
It is not at all proof.
Here is proof, I can take water into an environment that can grow mold, so mold grows. Well we married the conditions for it to occur. So then you build a theory around it and say creation creates itself.
While ignoring the probability of our world and creatures and man are not mathematically a probable outcome under random selection principles. First of all it wouldn't surpass entropy to become magnification, and I'd you think it did, I don't know what was in the water you drank, but there is truely something amiss in the electric impulses of the thoughts in people who actually buy that far fetched nonsense!
Mold only growa because of the reactions by which spores form. You didnt poof the mold into existence. Took preexisting materials and formed mold. Thats not what youre asserting. Youre asserting mold was poofed from literal nothing into existence. You have such a problem with life coming from nothing but your own explaination is life came from nothing. And for the 100th time evolution, is, not, random. Not random. NOT. RANDOM.
Ok? Get it?
It follows the same physical laws every other theory does. Abiogenesis aside, once there is a species in existence it will undergo evolution over time. Species will have changes in dna that will shape them over time as they adapt to their environment. Thats a fact. Thats evolution.
As for the last part, YOU BELIEVE A MAGIC MAN IN THE SKY CARES ABOUT YOUR WITTLE PWOBLEMS. And you call a century of established science nonsense. Youre a manchild. You believe in myths and fables that are used to scare kids into behaving. Grow up
Wow, what is wrong with everyone. It's as ridiculous as it can get.
I don't care about the billion years.Ithink chaos and disorder was outside the Garden. Failed attempts at creation by Lucifer. There is an indication of Satan destroying something that may have previously existed.
But attributing creation to evolution just may be the greatest insult to God. Not only be the greatest insult to God, but even a greater insult if Satan's attempts were ugly, and if entropy was the reward of his labor
All the cooking may cook up a beast. Maybe the currupted creation is part of the end times prophesies.
It's interesting since DNA is image related, as in a paternal test.
And the flood came after describing corrupting births with the Nephilim. And Jesus says it will be just like the days of Noah, marrying, and He mentions birth pangs, and woe to those who nurse babes. Before the flood Satan was corrupting the gene pool.
Are you guys sure you don't see science in the Bible?
I think God is proven, as science is grappling with these things, with a scientific awareness of properties related to time, and light and invisible dimensions, the microcosm, and macrocosm, and even the theorie of science is saying, our universe exists without a point of singularity, meaning the universe is finite. Which still what's on the other side?
And even in Steven Hawkins creative dome of "curved space" which he claims has properties able to cause it all to "create itself," from within itself, well what is in the microcosm?
How about common sense? These are all discussed by people without a particle accelerator!
All these concepts have been described in a book 1000s of years ago. For being a top notch physicist, how can you not ask if Biblical knowledge and concepts are curiously applicable, then why and how do these concepts make it into the Bible, but it doesn't just simply make it into the Bible. It's consistent through every writer, it is the entirety of its mrssage!
Some of the Bible authors expand the concepts even more than the others.
And then Jesus took these concepts out, and showed them expanded for understanding that surpassed their language and their advancements!
Giving understanding to the foolish Bible writers and God's people that confound the intelligent, and are just unraveling now to modern Quantum Physicists.
So I can see why God said over and over He will make fools of the wise and intelligent and make geniuses out of the simple.
Simply put, we understand Quantum Physics by the simple way of faith, and Quantum Physics took 6000 years to gain an outline of its complications.
Whereas by faith, we have lived it. So we understand it, by understanding simplicity, they are too smart to understand it even when the principles we have always known in faith have "come to light."
Maybe in some way, everything that is hidden comes to light, and those who love darkness can't experience light, is this property.
God will mock them by their own intelligence, as their own intelligence should have pointed them to the Creator, the Word of God, created all things.
So is it any wonder that Quantum Physics is strung through like connecting strings throughout the Bible?
The math is there, it is summed up in this, they choose to worship and serve the creature rather than the Creator, even though Creation itself confirms God so everyone of us is without excuse.
Aren't we seeing Creation itself confirming everything God ever said?
I think so!
That's when common sense then is more advanced then science!
If these Physics principles are true Mr Steven Hawkins of Physics Science, then how are they know by the ancient prophets?
There are several scriptures that say space has some density. According to scripture, Heaven (space) can be bent, can be shaken, rolled up, bent like a tent for God to enter and dwell in. Scripture has defined light as a property that transcends present and goes into past presents and future at one time.
Elijah in a battle shows dimensions to his servant by praying Lord show him, and the servant saw angels ready for battle. In an unseen, unknowable dimmmension.
Mathmatics?
The Bible is riddled with patterns of mathmatical proportions beyond their possible advancements!
Pi is found in the Hebrew numerical value of Genesis 1:1 the equation of advanced math "e" found in the Greek numeric value of John 1: 1 - Both of these scriptures announced Creation.
So to find advancements of math are indicative of purposeful design right in the 1st verses of both the old and new Testament are interesting to say the least!
And written language even its direction Hidden in the text showing both ways with YHWY in the middle in math equation of divisibility by the famous number "7" And these are just puzzle pieces, but they fit together like the are one picture scattered in pieces that undeniably are pieces of ONLY one picture.
How does that happen through 1000s of years and 66 writers that make up One Book? God's Word to mankind, in one Singularity, "One Bang" One - the smallest division that is the single point of Oneness, in Quantum Physics, is God in the microcosm?
It seems to me that the micro cosmetology is the point of Creation. We find God in a Kingdom of Light that is One. We are stones making up this One Kingdom, not divided against itself, because it is divided down to its oneness of division, where no division beyond it exists. ONE! The Lord our God is ONE!
Can you imagine when God unravels all his secrets hidden in the text, how foolish smart men like Steven Hawkins will be on that day?
And think about it, two languages used to write the Bible, Hebrew and in the time of Jesus Greek.
Two languages where each letter conveys three interpretive properties. multi- dimensional thought in writing!
letter value to form words, picture value for understanding concept, and numeric value to code writing in diversities as complicated as DNA coding. Which if applied may suggest digital coding, a hologram, living in a matrix with dimensions of unseen particles right next to us. Which some can perceive and others are dull to.
It's unusual when you look st the Bible from a prespective of God in physics and mathmatics.
And appearances of "ufos" are curious they seem to come and go through dimensions. Well the Bible talks about this in
I think this warfare mentioned in the Bible at the very least is hands down curious and to the wise should be investigated.
Even the Resurrection is a dimensional concept. And the Bible weirdly went out of its way to highlight these things. And science proves God everyday. Can we box God in by science, but because within this crazy book, every crazy science advancement is detailed!
So the common sense would be who told the guy without technology that Light is eternal and can be everywhere at once?
Or that right next to us are dimensional factors of presence that can't be seen with the physical eye, like in many places but Elijah is a good example?
Or that genes can be manipulated and cross mutated on purpose with creatures to make unnatural creation by manipulating basic natural creation?
Or that a hair on the head is knowing us, our individuality in a hair?
Or a transformation of our physical bodies by a twinkling of an eye which is speed of light as seen in photography, the speed of light that enters the pupil of the eye?
And the references to these, Like when Jesus says if the eye
has light the body is full of light. so we have Jesus describing
a transcending of dimension by Light in the eye, transforming our mortality to immortality, and in Thessalonians it's described as happening in a "twinkling"
How did they know the speed of light that transcends our physicality? Or time? Or the place where light in arc of direction is an eternal property. Where light speed is so fast that time stands still. Or that the theory of Quantum Physics shows what the Bible says the sword of His Word dividing to the smallest possible division.
Hebrews 4:12
For the word of God is living and active and sharper than any two-edged sword, and piercing as far as the division of soul and spirit, of both joints and marrow, and able to judge the thoughts and intentions of the heart.
The whole Bible is physics. String Theory?
Hmm oneness?
The last final division possible in physical locality, results in non-locality, and it becomes one with everything.
How much is Oneness discussed in the Bible?
It's weird to have all these concepts rolled up and discussed exhaustingly from Genesis to Revelations!
Oneness, God, the Trinity, The Spirit within us, Oneness within us making communication with God possible by breaking down our physical consciousness and opening up our dimensional consciousness.
Oneness, able to communicate in subparticles in many degrees of division to the marrow! not through expansion out but in. The wheels in Ezekiel shining with eyes all around it, inside each other by way of projecting dimensions within dimensions.
God is found in the lowest possible division, where one singularity exists as a Kingdom that cannot divide against itself! Hello? Is God in Science? Well hasn't He described it all along?
What holds a Kingdom together, and what divides a Kingdom.
Matt 12
25 And knowing their thoughts Jesus said to them, “Any kingdom divided against itself is laid waste; and any city or house divided against itself will not stand.
26 If Satan casts out Satan, he is divided against himself; how then will his kingdom stand?
27 If I by Beelzebul cast out demons, by whom do your sons cast them out? For this reason they will be your judges.
28 But if I cast out demons by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God has come upon you.
29 Or how can anyone enter the strong man’s house and carry off his property, unless he first binds the strong man? And then he will plunder his house.
30 He who is not with Me is against Me; and he who does not gather with Me scatters.
Wow, what is wrong with everyone. It's as ridiculous as it can get.
I don't care about the billion years. I think chaos and disorder was outside the Garden. Failed attempts at creation by Lucifer.
There is an indication of Satan destroying something that may have previously existed.
Attributing creation to evolution just may be the greatest insult ever to God. Not only may it be the greatest insult to God, but even a greater insult if Satan actually attempts were low life forms ugly and based in decay and entropy was the reward of his labor
All the cooking science does may cook up a beast. Maybe the currupted creation is part of the end times prophesies has to do with
It's interesting since DNA is image related, as in a paternal test.
And the flood came after describing corrupting births with the Nephilim. And Jesus says it will be just like the days of Noah, marrying ..., and He mentions birth pangs, and woe to those who nurse babes. Before the flood Satan was corrupting the gene pool. And there was a definite effort directed at eliminating nations that had been infected.
You guys sure you don't see science in the Bible? Remember Jesus said He knows every hair on your head... what would Jesus need to reassemble our bodies,at the Resurection? A hair?
Snowflakes are a perfect example of vast Natural Complexity. In fact, it takes more energy to maintain a liquid form, where Nature left to it's devices naturally produces order of potentially significant consequence.
Stars too are an example. If you get a cloud of Hydrogen; big enough that it creates sufficient gravity to pull itself together, the resulting pressure causes the core to spike in temperature. The end result is something far more complex with no need for God being necessary. This is called a Jeans Instability.
Prophesy is specific, things have to happen before other things happen. So then it was grossly inaccurate there is always a readiness, the Rapture could occur at any time. But the events to the world and events to finalize Israel as knowing the Messiah.
And for that to happen, it couldn't have happened till after Israel was in their land.
So I'm sorry your information is the highway of information, most of which is skewed. That's why you should investigate and study yourself for correct answers.
We are each responsible to seek truth. If you fail to investigate, it's your accountable. It's not the "wrong peoples fault"
At clicks of a button you can find truth if you dig.
Most people stop at what they want to be truth, or whats convenient, or what fits their ways.
Plain and simply making God in another image, evolution, in the image of yourself or your own mind or in agreement to lifestyle.
Evolution is foolish, there is a God, and you have a choice.
That's all, I don't buy the nonsense, there are smart scientist that also don't. So it's not like I woke up and had a dream.
If it were undeniably true then all scientists would believe it.
But evolution honestly is more of a faith walk then the true God.
There is no way to achieve harmony beauty and order by evolution.
I honestly think it's the biggest lie and its believers are not thinking beyond what is put in.
If you investigate and find contradictions within each version of the bible, between the different versions, and with the basic laws of reality (fruit trees existing before the sun existed), etc. - would that lead you to believe, or to disbelieve?
"You should always question your beliefs. Over and over and over. Never stop questioning. People were also convinced of nazism. People are convinced of islam. People are convinced of a lot of wrong stuff and perhaps if they ever stopped to examine it they'd begin to see holes in their ideologies."
You say "you should always question your beliefs??" I may question what I receive as a word of revelation sometimes and wait, for additional understanding, but I never questioned the confirmation of revelation I recieved of Him, thats not easily dismissed, or forgotton.
God helps our faith, by confirming Himself through the eyes of our understanding. And understanding isn't a view or an opinion, it's understanding.
Understanding is how things are known, not just what things are known. You can debate a Doctrine that's a view, the and an opinion.
This precept is scriptural,, so my experience is confirmed as eflects what is written in the Word.
Jesus said to His disciples "flesh and blood did not reveal this to you, but my Father has revealed it to you. So I experienced that, not dead religion, or religion of a mental fortitude of will or memorization."
You should know from reading the Bible, that He said my yoke is easy - (not a mill stone) My burden is light - (greater is He that is in me) If you seek Him, He let's Himself be found. If you don't seek Truth, then you are not just someone who chooses not to believe doesn't believe, it's a decission against him, you have decided what you think you know about God is unappealing to confirm.
and But why would I question something I know is true? You guess that there is no God, but that's not convinced. Its a passive acceptance a belief based on being co nvinced. there is actually but I already know I'm not guessing.
I didn't recieve my faith by beliefs teachings of men, I recieved understanding by experiencing the Spirit of God, and with revelation in my understanding, I couldn't dismiss understanding even in times silence. ii's a memory of senses, in understanding, and in experience.
Once you know Him He is not easily dismissed. And that doesn't come through your eyes. Its not surprising that God the Creator made what we see and hear and even what we memorize less momorable than details we can remember trough, taste, smell, and understanding over what can be touched and seen. What you see and feel are the least memorable of all the senses.
I didn't receive revelation of God through man, no one can pass Why would you invest the time to know convincing faith, to then question your beliefs. I didn't conclude my beliefs by decieving myself with a false hope like some mental decisiveness.
Why would I deny my experience of God? PThat's like questioning your marriage every time you too busy to have gooey feelings. That's the dumbest thing I ever heard.
When I say I'm convinced of faith, you actually dont understand what that entails.
I guess what you don't get, is He does show Himself.
But you need to start in the 1st steps in seeking truth.
Start there 1st.
And another thing you don't understand without faith it is impossible to please God. He can appear to you, and you can believe for moments, but what last stronger in your memory, something you can see, or something you understand?
Do you remember the smell of your grandmother's kitchen, or the color of the kitchen walls? Another thing you don't realize is out of sight out of mind. God dwells in our understanding not our vision. You can dismiss easily something you saw, but you can't easily dismissed what you see in understanding.
Seek Him and get understanding then you will know Him, and new convinced through understanding
And regarding geology digs items were sound in consecutive order. So what I'm asking you to do is, atleast let's establish a solid foundation of history then we can build on that.
Pascal Wagner Argument - the argument that it is in one's own best interest to behave as if God exists, since the possibility of eternal punishment in hell outweighs any advantage of believing otherwise.
Well, that wasn't really my argument. The Pascal Wagner argument actually says it's in your best interest to behave as though God exists.
That's actually a dumb ass argument. Sorry Saintnow, his arguments are closer to this type of argument.
And is not really the same as anything I have said.
It's silly to deny your way in the world based on Hell or judgement, especially if you are NOT convinced if God Hell or Heaven Exists. That's like saying Buy a wedding dress, rent the hall, and pay the caterer And you don't even have a Bride or Groom or engagement, or dating someone yet.
Jesus said COUNT the cost! He actually wants us to go in to following Him knowing we can, and will pay the cost, and no one does that unless their convinced.
The Rich Young Ruler WANTED to follow Jesus, He even agreed with His commandments! But Jesus says, cool you are almost there, one more thing .... the Rich Young Ruler wouldn't have worked out well, at least not making that commitment on that day, why?
Jesus didn't run after him and when the disciples were like Hey Jesus, this is bad no one will be saved. He taught them then, what is Needed to make a child of Light, where your heart is, there is your treasure. And He said people need to understand the cost, for some the cost may be someone, to others something, whatever you love He knows the heart ... Abraham loved Isaac, yet by his famous test, God said, do you love your Son more than Me? And Abraham, you can imagine how distraught the scene was, and Abraham's grief leading up to that moment, God says pass! He counted the cost and was willing to pay every last penny he had serving God. Was he convinced? Or was his faith a guess?
So I never said this argument. I said count the cost, and be convinced. I showed you every reason to believe, and I added a very honest believable and relatable set of videos to satisfy your intellect. I showed you God's Word, confirming God's Word. I showed you His character and sensibly showed you why darkness can't stand. And why the world's Woes have grown in the darkness of Satan's seed.
And I gave you my experience, which is wonderfully wise when I was a dumb ass 5 year old, 2nd grader, and and a merging rebel. And some other fabulous encounters that were realistic, without over spiritualizing every pee and poop I ever experienced.
I think people think faith is a guess. A lucky guess! We HOPE we are right, well that's not good enough!
That's actually not what faith is at all.
Faith is being CONVINCED of things not seen!
Without faith that is CONVINCED, it is impossible to please God!
Hebrews 11
Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen. 2 For by it the men of old gained approval.
3 By faith we understand that the worlds were prepared by the word of God, so that what is seen was not made out of things which are visible. 6 And without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is and that He is a rewarder of those who seek Him.
Romans 8:37-39
37 But in all these things we overwhelmingly conquer through Him who loved us. 38 For I am convinced that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers, 39 nor height, nor depth, nor any other created thing, will be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
I warned since you yourself are not convinced there isn't a God, then if you hinder another from pursuing this "unicorn"
Then you just might be judged as a stumbling block.
I have to say I'm just waking up from a sound sleep for 15 or 20 years, so I Myself am trying to fix my crooked paths, things I messed up from not following closely. And even if I miss the mark, or the goal, or the crown of life, I'd still rather go down pointing others to the truth that I am convinced of.
So even if I don't partake, I'd rather put others on the platform rather than pull them down to drown with me!
Where as you are not convinced and ready to whole heartedly pull others to drown with you!
I'll give you the benefit of doubt, you probably didn't think of it that way.
Pascal Wagner Argument - the argument that it is in one's own best interest to behave as if God exists, since the possibility of eternal punishment in hell outweighs any advantage of believing otherwise.
Well, that wasn't really my argument. The Pascal Wagner argument actually says it's in your best interest to behave as though God exists.
That's actually a dumb ass argument. Sorry Saintnow, his arguments are closer to this type of argument.
And is not really the same as anything I have said
Uh no thats pretty much the argument you made:
You know if I'm wrong I had a nice life of whatever I made of it. And there is nothing else.
But if you wrong you and you teach others to be wrong, then you have taken someone else's chance for Eternal Life and gave them a share of Eternal Death with you
You say first that if youre wrong then you had a nice life and theres no downside. But if im wrong and i convince others to be wrong then we get eternal death. That is pascals wager. Its almost always put in the form of: "if im wrong then X, but if youre wrong then Y". And thats exactly how you presented it.
Faith is being CONVINCED of things not seen!
Without faith that is CONVINCED, it is impossible to please God!
Hebrews 11
Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen. 2 For by it the men of old gained approval.
Ok the bible can say whatever fluffy nonsense about faith that it wants to. But the dictionary definition of faith is "belief without or in the face of evidence". So faith is what you call it when you just believe something for no reason. Which is not an admirable thing. Its quite foolish.
Faith might be being convinced, but being convinced doesnt make you automatically right. People were once convinced the earth was flat.
Also how is it the assurance of things hoped for? nothing is assured in faith. Thats why its called faith. That passage just doesnt make sense
Snell there is nothing else, that's what atheists believe.
So I said you get to live life and do exactly what you expected. So if you get what you expect no more and no less how is that the same as threatening with he'll fire burning for all eternity.
I think it's kind of crazy that I said God gave you a gift of 1 life up to about 100 years, some more, some less. And you get to live life like we are.
Now atheist believe no God, nothing after.
So if you chose against God, and you faced judgement which you will, but you went to nothing, just like you were planning anyway what's the difference.
Does it matter if others chose not to live in the darkness, and they give up everything to follow Jesus get to go into Life for Eternity. How is that the same?
1st of all, its the truth, and I was clear that I don't know the after life of Hell in "convinced " descriptive way,, and I don't think it's Eternal, other than Eternal in Death. Meaning you no longer exist, You join death. Nothing. So if you live your life, and you faced God, and He says I never knew you.You didn't love Light or God. And you had your gift of life, Are all the world's problems your life experience? Despite the crazy world, most people live normal family and social lives. We all want 1 more day with someone. So life is a gift.
So I am not saying you should give up anything for fear of burning forever, I'm saying the same as what you are expecting. Live how you want, you'll have death, which agrees with your theology. Nothing after. So what is wrong?
The Bible defines itself, because it is instructional.
You have to the general idea or impression of what faith is as we see in the dictionary, then we have instructional in the Bible. Cain and Abel both sacraficed
to God, but God was pleased with Abel's faith. So the Bible teaches through its own pages defining and revealing His Word
So you want to take peace and joy from people so they don't expect anything from the disappointing world that this so called God made, who you happen to be mad at.
People can have peace and joy and not be religious. So yes i would rather get people to reject their illusionary religious views in favor of reality. And even though that may cause discomfort it is easy to retain things like joy, hope, ect. in a worldview without god. Also, no im not mad at god. i dont think god exists.
25 For I do not want you, brethren, to be uninformed of this mystery—so that you will not be wise in your own estimation—that a partial hardening has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in; 26 and so all Israel will be saved; just as it is written,
(Israel and Jews have been targets in many times and by many Nations - and its unreasonable to have happened in the 1st place. It's like they have a big target on their back. May be prophesy fulfillments? God didn't put them in gas chambers, but He didn't protect them as a people from their enemies. They were exiled, and God let their enemies overtake them. But in the end, He will join Israel to Christians with One Messiah, who they will be able to see also as the Messiah, Jesus )
He will remove ungodliness from Jacob.”
27 “This is My covenant with them,
When I take away their sins.”
28 From the standpoint of the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but from the standpoint of God’s choice they are beloved for the sake of the fathers; 29 for the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. 30 For just as you once were disobedient to God, but now have been shown mercy because of their disobedience,
31 so these also now have been disobedient, that because of the mercy shown to you they also may now be shown mercy.
32 For God has shut up all in disobedience so that He may show mercy to all.
Mark 9:42
“Whoever causes one of these little ones who believe to stumble, it would be better for him if, with a heavy millstone hung around his neck, he had been cast into the sea. 4 And coming to Him as to a living stone which has been rejected by men, but is choice and precious in the sight of God, 5 you also, as living stones, are being built up as a spiritual house for a holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ.
6 For this is contained in Scripture:
“Behold, I lay in Zion a choice stone, a precious corner stone,
And he who believes in Him will not be disappointed.”
7 This precious value, then, is for you who believe; but for those who disbelieve,
“The stone which the builders rejected,
This became the very corner stone,”
8 and,
“A stone of stumbling and a rock of offense”;
for they stumble because they are disobedient to the word, and to this doom they were also appointed.
9 But you are a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for God’s own possession, so that you may proclaim the excellencies of Him who has called you out of darkness into His marvelous light; 10 for you once were not a people, but now you
are the people of God; you had not received mercy, but now you have received mercy.
11 Beloved, I urge you as aliens and strangers to abstain from fleshly lusts which wage war against the soul. 12 Keep your behavior excellent among the Gentiles, so that in the thing in
which they slander you as evildoers, they may because of your
good deeds, as they observe them, glorify God in the day of visitation.
25 For I do not want you, brethren, to be uninformed of this mystery—so that you will not be wise in your own estimation—that a partial hardening has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in; 26 and so all Israel will be saved; just as it is written,
(Israel and Jews have been targets in many times and by many Nations - and its unreasonable to have happened in the 1st place. It's like they have a big target on their back. May be prophesy fulfillments? God didn't put them in gas chambers, but He didn't protect them as a people from their enemies. They were exiled, and God let their enemies overtake them. But in the end, He will join Israel to Christians with One Messiah, who they will be able to see also as the Messiah, Jesus )
He will remove ungodliness from Jacob.”
27 “This is My covenant with them,
When I take away their sins.”
28 From the standpoint of the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but from the standpoint of God’s choice they are beloved for the sake of the fathers; 29 for the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. 30 For just as you once were disobedient to God, but now have been shown mercy because of their disobedience,
31 so these also now have been disobedient, that because of the mercy shown to you they also may now be shown mercy.
32 For God has shut up all in disobedience so that He may show mercy to all.
Mark 9:42
“Whoever causes one of these little ones who believe to stumble, it would be better for him if, with a heavy millstone hung around his neck, he had been cast into the sea. 4 And coming to Him as to a living stone which has been rejected by men, but is choice and precious in the sight of God, 5 you also, as living stones, are being built up as a spiritual house for a holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ.
6 For this is contained in Scripture:
“Behold, I lay in Zion a choice stone, a precious corner stone,
And he who believes in Him will not be disappointed.”
7 This precious value, then, is for you who believe; but for those who disbelieve,
“The stone which the builders rejected,
This became the very corner stone,”
8 and,
“A stone of stumbling and a rock of offense”;
for they stumble because they are disobedient to the word, and to this doom they were also appointed.
9 But you are a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for God’s own possession, so that you may proclaim the excellencies of Him who has called you out of darkness into His marvelous light; 10 for you once were not a people, but now you
are the people of God; you had not received mercy, but now you have received mercy.
11 Beloved, I urge you as aliens and strangers to abstain from fleshly lusts which wage war against the soul. 12 Keep your behavior excellent among the Gentiles, so that in the thing in
which they slander you as evildoers, they may because of your
good deeds, as they observe them, glorify God in the day of visitation.
Israel's persistance as a country was fullfilled intentionally. After the original country collapsed, after WW2 we needed a place for all the jews who were exiled from germany and who spread across europe fleeing the nazis. People at the meetings following WW2 cited verses like theses and made arguments for why israel should be established and then it was. I see no godly intervention in any way here. I see alot of human intervention.
No, He was telling them, this is how clean you need to
keep my church! Without hypocrisy and without stumbling blocks.
He was telling them to have a great attitude of love and forgiveness toward one another. 7 times 70 a day. Have the patience of Job, BUT, if a stumbling block comes into the body, we must act, and we try and try and try to fix them, if we can't we MUST let them go.
For what purpose, So as to preserve the body under the Head, which is Jesus. And not cloud over or distort the Way He set for us, and instructions on the path!
And that in these cases were people become stumbling blocks by behaviors or false teaching, if they are mine, I'll go get them and bring them back in! And we see Paul delivering someone out, in hopes that by being out he would regain his sensibilities and the Lord can save Him. But if one is made to believe he can sit in church and he is fine in his stumbling, then it's our fault that he continues to stumble, and our fault he is locked out of the Kingdom.
These detailed instructions!!! Was this a mere man 2000 years ago. Or is there a methodical well thought out huge big thinking?
If you actually look at the things Jesus said, and the directives, and the follow through from people who actually understood what He was saying like He got into their heads!
If we are district managers and we train managers to do everything as we do, even on a smaller controlled, repetitive environment, promoting people who with all our education and expertise, how likely is it that many if any are going to adapt the instructions AS IF we were in their heads, and moving them, as if we ourselves were right there beside them, in their heads, and leading their hands and every move???
Jesus and said, “Who then is greatest in the kingdom of heaven?”
2 And He called a child to Himself and set him before them,
3 and said, “Truly I say to you, unless you are converted and become like children, you will not enter the kingdom of heaven.
4 Whoever then humbles himself as this child, he is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven. 5 And whoever receives one such child in My name receives Me; 6 but whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in Me to stumble, it would be better for him to have a heavy millstone hung around his neck, and to be drowned in the depth of the sea.
7 “Woe to the world because of its stumbling blocks! For it is inevitable that stumbling blocks come; but woe to that man through whom the stumbling block comes!
8 “If your hand or your foot causes you to stumble, cut it off and throw it from you; it is better for you to enter life crippled or lame, than to have two hands or two feet and be cast into the eternal fire. 9 If your eye causes you to stumble, pluck it out and throw it from you. It is better for you to enter life with one eye, than to have two eyes and be cast into the fiery hell.
10 “See that you do not despise one of these little ones, for I say to you that their angels in heaven continually see the face of My Father who is in heaven. 11 For the Son of Man has come to save that which was lost.
12 “What do you think? If any man has a hundred sheep, and one of them has gone astray, does he not leave the ninety-nine on the mountains and go and search for the one that is straying?
13 If it turns out that he finds it, truly I say to you, he rejoices over it more than over the ninety-nine which have not gone astray.
14 So it is not the will of your Father who is in heaven that one of these little ones perish.
15 “If your brother sins, go and show him his fault in private; if he listens to you, you have won your brother. 16 But if he does not listen to you, take one or two more with you, so that by the mouth
of two or three witnesses every fact may be confirmed.
17 If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector. 18 Truly I say to you, whatever you bind on earth shall have been bound in heaven; and whatever you loose on earth shall have been loosed in heaven.
19 “Again I say to you, that if two of you agree on earth about anything that they may ask, it shall be done for them by My Father who is in heaven. 20 For where two or three have gathered together in My name, I am there in their midst.”
21 Then Peter came and said to Him, “Lord, how often shall my brother sin against me and I forgive him? Up to seven times?”
22 Jesus *said to him, “I do not say to you, up to seven times, but up to seventy times seven.
Revelation 18:21
Then a strong angel took up a stone like a great millstone and threw it into the sea, saying, “So will Babylon, the great city, be thrown down with violence, and will not be found any longer.
I say to not exterminate religion. Others can just not have religion but removing it from society and the world, then it's a no.since long long ago, a huge number of people, almost the entire human race believed in the word God/religion. Why? Ages ago, as we say the beginning of human race,there are huge problems that our ancestors face, like where did we start from? And what/who are we?. Our ancestors needs answers and are eager to look for these answers. . And when times that they need a hand with the problems they are facing, they obtain to find for help. the combined desperation and eagerness to seek for the questions and help, they created a "God" which gave branches to different gods and different religions. Someone or something beyond imaginary to feel security, protection,guidance, help etc. with the help of this belief in God, those questions are answered securely and all the answers comes from God himself. So, my point is, the belief that God existed/exists helped the human race maintain its mind that there is something out there beyond powerful and great which will protect you from things that may be a mischief to your life. Every time we have a problem, we can look up to something/someone who is God. I'm 15 and I don't know if he is in fact real or not but my guts tell me he is. For people out there that wants to remove Religion,well your entirely a new species of human beings and I know you may or may not agree with me (I know that in ancient times, there are people who don't believe in religion, just not plenty), but religion is a big piece to our world and what we are now is shaped with the help of religion. Religion is the beginning and is still here in our world. Conflicts, wars and fights just contribute about what religion is. It is what it is and we just need to respect our own beliefs. Ugh, why do we always need to blame religion when it's always us, humans; who needed help long ago and now complains when it helped us.Believe me, Religion is obviously not the problem here.
The Amen, the faithful and true Witness, the Beginning of the creation of God, says this:
15 ‘I know your deeds, that you are neither cold nor hot; I wish that you were cold or hot. 16 So because you are lukewarm, and neither hot nor cold, I will spit you out of My mouth.
17 Because you say, “I am rich, and have become wealthy, and have need of nothing,” and you do not know that you are wretched and miserable and poor and blind and naked,
18 I advise you to buy from Me gold refined by fire so that you may become rich, and white garments so that you may clothe yourself, and that the shame of your nakedness will not be revealed; and eye salve to anoint your eyes so that you may see.
19 Those whom I love, I reprove and discipline; therefore be zealous and repent.
20 Behold, I stand at the door and knock; if anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and will dine with him, and he with Me. 21 He who overcomes, I will grant to him to sit down with Me on My throne, as I also overcame and sat down with My Father on His throne.
22 He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.’”
The Amen, the faithful and true Witness, the Beginning of the creation of God, says this:
15 ‘I know your deeds, that you are neither cold nor hot; I wish that you were cold or hot. 16 So because you are lukewarm, and neither hot nor cold, I will spit you out of My mouth.
17 Because you say, “I am rich, and have become wealthy, and have need of nothing,” and you do not know that you are wretched and miserable and poor and blind and naked,
18 I advise you to buy from Me gold refined by fire so that you may become rich, and white garments so that you may clothe yourself, and that the shame of your nakedness will not be revealed; and eye salve to anoint your eyes so that you may see.
19 Those whom I love, I reprove and discipline; therefore be zealous and repent.
20 Behold, I stand at the door and knock; if anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and will dine with him, and he with Me. 21 He who overcomes, I will grant to him to sit down with Me on My throne, as I also overcame and sat down with My Father on His throne.
22 He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.’”
I would never defend a religion, but anything that has that kind of power has the power to exterminate you as well. I think I will leave things as the are; let sleeping dogs lie.
Many are seeing the same, because He is opening the Heavens like a scroll!
(Rev)
I can only say it was a dramatic level 10 coincidence in getting my attention recently! And not one of them was in my control, nor in the control of others." It is the lack of control that is the most relevant. And the timing was impeccable.
I was difficult to wake up, but as I was waking up, He began to show me things so quickly. He is not waiting or taking His time, there is an urgency in the work God!
Matthew 24:22
Unless those days had been cut short, no life would have been saved; but for the sake of the elect those days will be cut short.
Deceptions of churches, and of the darkened prespective of the world, and the darkness of sin, and the materialism and the worries of life, these are all Deceptions, sweeping people away like never before. It's a flood poured out.
Right now as in Revelations, the sky is opening up like a scroll, He is revealing hidden truths to His people. So we all should expect the Word to show us things in every familiar scripture that we haven't seen before.
We are the 300 of Gideon's army that cup the water and drink with water in our own hands!
As everyone is being swept away in a flood of darkness, like has never been poured out before! We will shine like never before.
Being filled with their own lusts and lies it will drown them. Vultures eating and feeding on cursed flesh, eating them alive as they devour each other like the beasts they are becoming.
It's like Pinocchio's fun fair, fun then they start growing ears and tails, as the task masters remove their nice fun mask to reveal the devil that holds them captive.
Image of the beast, the mind - forehead of the beast, and the work and deeds of their "hands" There is a lot to know through the geneologies of Cain and Adam. And in the Creation story. And Tower of Babel.
Its what He woke me to show me. And it was a dramatic wake up, and as soon as I could soften even a little He started showing things at the speed of urgency.
Even though my heart isn't fully ready.
That's not His usual way, He is working with urgency, whether we are ready or not.
It's as if He picked me out of the flood and put me on ground in a hurry so I wasn't swept away also.
Because the flood is fierce!
Deceptions are running so deep, that people choose lies over truth blatently and knowingly, even when they know they are lies. The darkness is growing over any light left. And doors are shutting.
He is Separating as we stand. This is the day of judgement.
As this happens people like us will "see Him as He is," and we will shine brighter than the lamps we were shining like, while the other Virgins wake without oil and the merchants have none to sell, they can't even buy it!
The virgins who wake with oil, are sealed with the Holy Spirit. Instead of the Sun shining, it will be darkened, the moon will she'd blood, it's the blood of those who are destroyed by the stumbling blocks. It is the sea of the dead, their blood is on their hands.
But we will shine like the Sun. Because He will reveal Himself like we have never seen before, that's how we lead many to righteousness.
So His elect will shine brighter than ever, with full intensity of the Heavens opening up like a scroll!
Those who have insight will shine truth so bright, we will lead many to righteousness, in this short window
of time that is at hand, this day and hour.
Soon the Heaven will be covered with bronze! People have a short time to seek and know truth and to see Him "as He is," when truth is presented to them. If they don't they won't ever be able to.
This is sealing and separating. Them the end will come.
This message needs to go out, and be understood.
The time is short!
Shaking the dust from our shoes we are supposed to be urgent in delivery, the dust is what we walk over, the flesh.
We tread scorpions, their the scorpions stinging men today, as they raise their fists and blame God. He is cruel for His ways they say, they choose to not know Him and their being stung as they raise their fists.
If they don't take heed when they are called, the door will soon shut on them. They won't be able to buy even a piece of bread with a bag of gold.!
Think of Jesus, Judas sold Him for silver, the Bread of Life for siver, He is the truth, and soon a bag of gold won't even be able to buy truth. The truth or bread was sold for silver, and betrayed by those who handled the Bread. Like Judas they sold him for lies. But now He won't be found to be bought or sold, not even for gold.
Truth will be that hard to find, and even harder to see when it IS found.
Like it's value went from selling it and betraying it for peanuts like unrefined "silver" to so costly, it will cost everything you have and everything you are to but it, with gold refined through the intense heat of this hour. Like paying with refined gold!
Only those in God's image will be able to afford it.
So there is an urgency from God. I only understand the parts He showed me so far. He gives us what He reveals as He reveals, and as we walk in that, He gives us more revealed. So He may open more to you.
The speed of His revealing things now seems to be pretty much immediate.
At a speed I never saw before.
I'm surprised at the speed that He began to let me to seeing things around me,
but not surprised because I see that the time of day is the why. The time is now. We need to understand the urgency.
The problem with this question is we don't have a clear definition of religion.
Are we talking about organisations that believe in imaginary or unseen powers that control our lives? Well that would also include government, the economy, corporations and society in general. Are we talking about organisations that formalise interaction with God? Well that would not include most of the Buddhists, Confucianism and several Christian leaders.
To me religions is the culmination of a human impulse. An impulse that we see has been used for good and for ill. It has given us the pyramids, society, laws, incredible works of art. It also has inspired genocide and evil. This happened outside of "God" inspired religion as well i.e communism. To "exterminate" religion would be to chop off our own arm. We can all still learn a lot from religion. The provable benefits of meditation on contemplative prayer came from religion, the wisdom traditions still prove to be really inspirational and after all science itself was worked out by the religious.
We, however, need not tolerate it's irrational behaviour when it comes to law making. To figure out the best way for a society to live is testable and within the realm of science and religious freedom should not mean freedom to not listen to data when it comes to the wellbeing of everyone.
You need to uncover truth and accuracy, and expose lies and intentional falsification of evidence, particularly regarding truth related to God and the Bible.
Each source needs to be dissected to understand the sources of secular and religious information.
Untruthful secular sources have tainted every area of information from politics to news to religious information, even to the basic modern history, and the historic reliability and credibility of the Biblical text, which should be the most credible sourse of ancient history.
Falsifications are predominant over integrity and true enthisiam of real facts and finds as evidenced in many fields of study such as Archaeology, History, and Science, and other sources of secular education and media.
Left seems to have gone further left at a faster rate than right going further right.
The left is out of line and out of control.
Much of the pull right is society trying to correct itself from extremes in the tug of war, which left pull even with cheat of the game. For examples, BLM, news edits of the sister's speach of a recent death of her brother in a police altercation, the liberal news publisized ONLY 1/2 of her speech. With full intent to spin it as a peaceful speach. On purpose to decieve, spin and lie!
That is literally STEALING independent thoughts away from the general populous, with a purpose of agenda to prevent the general people from managing their own personal property of thought! To control their own independent views and opininions. And to eliminate their own rights and freedoms to exercise their own personal judgement!
The general public has been robbed of their own minds and their own voices! Literally controlled, people have lost their ability to have independent evaluations regarding news and values and beliefs.
This dynamic of steering also dominates evaluations of Biblical credibility, many lies even falsifying and planting documents and false artifacts meant to steer against faith.
These media sources follow that course steering everything and everybody by edits to news to steer, use of propaganda and media through spin, and even falsification through staging, planting, and hiding factual evidence and information.
It's real and it's sick! And the general public are fish led by bait and hooks, fish brains are not very intelligent, they are just fish brains!"
Evidence when viewed goes "Beyond a Reasonable Doubt!" Even secular sourses like Thallus (52AD)
Thallus is perhaps the earliest secular writer to mention Jesus and he is so ancient his writings don’t even exist anymore. But Julius Africanus, writing around 221AD does quote Thallus who previously tried to explain away the darkness occurring at Jesus’ crucifixion:
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“On the whole world there pressed a most fearful darkness; and the rocks were rent by an earthquake, and many places in Judea and other districts were thrown down. This darkness Thallus, in the third book of his History, calls, as appears to me without reason, an eclipse of the sun.” (Julius Africanus, Chronography, 18:1)
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Here is some evidence that supports an affirmative verdict regarding many Biblical facts, including the Resurection:
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1 - The Prophetic Words, and the Biblical Directions of Prophesy, and the Plan, the ultimate bottom line action and goals of Biblical content and Prophesy.
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2 - Because Biblical History is credible it is a source in support of evidence.
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3 - Because Biblical Prophesy is credible in its fulfillments it is an even greater source in support of evidence, especially since prophesy is layered, with many separate prophesies having to also come true for one to come true! - Even greater than knitting cells together in evolution!
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4 - Because eye witness testimony, even outside of the Bible, other documents, Greek and Roman secular offer details confirming the dynamics of Christianity and Persecutions and Martyrdom.
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5 - The accounts are not contradictions, (as though any were lying) the various times and places of writings actually are a confirmation of reliability, people who lie have fuzzy memories in a week, even with practice and easy communications of our day, lies unravel because even the untrained eye can pick out lies, but that's not the case with the four gospels, they confirm accidentally each other's facts, that show true eyewitness independent works, with different perspectives of the same exact event, as you know since you "read the book" the private investigated discusses this.
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6 - The degree of insistence on the testimonies of Christians, and it's growth beyond their group, location, and generation. In comparison Muslims were militant from the start, attracting like violent individuals. It would not have the same magnet effect as peaceful Christians fed to lions. One would excell in dominance, like cell selection, the other would be eliminated as passive cells are dominated.
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7 - The Prophetic Words spoken of concerning the rejection by its "mother religion" and the Prophetic Words stating as Messiah would be rejected, All Nations would hear an exclusive religion, rejected by its originator and accepted world wide!
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8 - 300 prophesies fulfilled in just the one person Jesus
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9 - Martyrdom, the ferverency and
dedication, they most all went courageously against horrible opposition, and most ultimately died for it. And not in a group drinking poison like Jim Jones, Christians often died or were imprisoned alone and often died gruesome deaths.
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10 - Paul a Jew of Jews, happily killing Christians saw what must have been a hologram! Jesus the Risen Lord knocked him off a horse and blinded him, then sent him to talk to his disciples.
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Picture this, Saul/Paul had just led a crowd in Stephen's stoning, Saul was unmoved by it, it was something he was gladly a part of. All the Christians knew of Saul, and he scared of them, they feared for their lives.
Jesus knocks Saul off of a horse, and disarms him by making him temporarily blind. Probably so the Christians wouldn't fear him when he pulled up on his horse. Jesus made him disabled in killing them, so he couldn't harm them.
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Jesus sends Saul to get disciples that just saw him murder their friend and brother, Stephen! Now he is there to be saved, healed and filled with the Spirit.
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Paul goes on to lead the way like a work horse bringing the message of Jesus the Risen Christ to the Gentiles. Saul Jew of Jews - takes on a new name, born again, and brought the gospel out to the Gentiles.
So these are ten pieces of evidence I have and consider as evidence "Beyond a Reasonable Doubt"
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The Gospels have been historically confirmed the same way anything historical has been confirmed. But, even more so, secular sources independent of and even hostile to Christian faith have other historic texts that make the New Testament all the more reliable and credible as it is confirmed also through non-religious sources.
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Example of a supernatural "coincidence" regarding Jesus. Is noted the darkness and earthquake during the crucifixtion, noted by
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The greater challenge of the New Testament would be there are no writings saying the claims of miracles to be fraudulent. With the persecution and resistance met by Christianity, I would think there would be plenty of documentations and writings stating these rebels are liars and all the miracles are lies. This would be an even greater expectation, since we have plenty of writings in the affirmative of these supernatural dynamics. Christians had little I'd any power to control anything from the onset of the faith throughout the dark ages.
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After all, the are documented by 4 Gospel writers, and in acts and letters.
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And Catholocism and Constantine, even though he converted he established Catholocism and killed Christians who resisted Catholicism and beginning Catholocism burned their Bibles and writings.
Catholocism wanted to control the populous so only the the Catholic Church had the written Word, hence the "Dark Ages." The one sect remained true to the faith, and the Word was a black market item punishable by prison or death.
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So I consider these points as even more proof.
So, NO writings rebutting claims of miracles is also evidence in favor of the Resurection. There are No rebuttals of claims of Jesus' miracles, or of the early Christian miracles.
Which should be more so, in excessive amounts and from all sides of the opposition, from Jews, Romans, and Greeks!
They had even more reason to write against claims, then the Christians who already had much documentation of the miracles and Words of Jesus in all the writings we did and do already have as Christians.
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And that's now my 11th reason for evidence "Beyond a Reasonable Doubt!"
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Confirmations through other sources, also. Such as the the strange darkness from the 6th hour to the 9th. And it was documented to not be a coincidental eclipse. So my reason here is evidence point # 12!
In support of this evidence, is ancient documentation by Thallus in 52 AD stating it, and also astronomers confirmed there would not have been an eclipse that day. So it is a "supernatural event" or a perfectly timed coincidence.
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So therefore as the Roman Soldiers said, "Surely He was the Son of God." I conclude by the evidence, of course the Resurection occurred and it is a God thing to do according to His will and purpose!
Personally, religion, I'm not for it. It puts so many people in a rage state if you don't follow what their religion says. It has caused many, many wars! But, just as I think LGBT+ rights are important, I think religious rights are as well. Though, I do not have respect for a person whom shoves their religious opinions down my throat. I am an atheist, yet, I respect everyone whom deserves it. Religion could be good if people just lived by actual facts, and not just religious opinions!
Personally, religion, I'm not for it. It puts so many people in a rage state if you don't follow what their religion says. It has caused many, many wars! But, just as I think LGBT+ rights are important, I think religious rights are as well. Though, I do not have respect for a person whom shoves their religious opinions down my throat. I am an atheist, yet, I respect everyone whom deserves it. Religion could be good if people just lived by actual facts, and not just religious opinions!
I, Personally, do not see a problem with religion.
Does it cause conflict... Yes
Does it cause many of our political issues today... Yes
But we as a team of humans need to come together and agree with one another that we are all different. Whether your Buddhist, Islamic, Jewish, Christian or another religion, let people believe what they want to believe, and worship who/what they want to worship don't let the assumption of "There is only one Religion" or "There religion is not right" Get in our way of socializing as a community and a 'Team'. Forget about the religions that we have let them do what they do as their beliefs and worry about your OWN life.
LOL, again the people who support no restriction abortions of viable babies up to birth for any reason when they vote for Democrats, are going to lecture Christians on evil?
LOL, you total hypocritical fools!
Tell me what atrocities Christians are supporting in America today? Exactly! NONE!
I can tell you the atrocities that Atheists and those on the Left are supporting today...
NO RESTRICTION ABORTIONS of our most innocent human beings!!!!!!!!
It's ridiculous to think that just because you are religious you automatically don't support abortion. In the event of rape, or if the mothers life is at risk, many people of multiple faiths will agree with the choice of abortion. I may not like it myself but that is a choice that should always be left to the woman. She will have to live with whatever she chooses and no one gets the right to judge her.
WE ARE NOT TALKING ABOUT EXTREME CASE ABORTIONS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
STOP USING THAT AS AN EXCUSE TO VOTE FOR DEMOCRATS WHO SUPPORT NO RESTRICTION ABORTIONS UP TO BIRTH!
I agree that if a woman's life is at risk, it will have to be her who makes the decision on which life will survive. A terrible choice to make. That is the only abortion I would compromise on. The only reason I support that compromise is that if both lives can not be saved, there must be a terribe choice by the parents.
Any rape victim can go to the hospital within a couple days and prevent conception. WHY DO WE HEAR SO LITTLE ABOUT THIS SIMPLE FACT? You hear so little because Democrats want you to believe you need abortion to prevent rape pregnancies. That unborn baby did nothing worng when conceieved by a rape. There are millions of people on waiting lists to adopt new born babies.
I believe any person who votes for Democrats is supporting the killing of babies in the womb(for any reason). Babies that God says he already knows in the womb! What kind of Christian could support the right of mother Mary to choose to abort Jesus? What Christian could support killing bbies who God already knows?
Spare me....... in all the times I have tried to get one atheist on this site to tell me they were truly pro life and would never vote for the pro abortion Democrat party or any pro abortion politician. I found one!
When I say Atheists are pro choice, I'm speaking to the vast vast majority. I'm sure there are a few who are pro life.....very few!
God says we will know a Christian by their love. Any so called Christian who is pro abortion, would not fit the definition of a Christian according to God. Killing an innocent healthy living growing baby is anything but love.
Christians made up 90% of the movement to prevent gay marriage effectively withholding a right from other US citizens.
And we just had a fucking argument about no restriction abortions you fucking liar. You have yet to prove that the left supports no restriction abortions and even admitted to me that they support a 5 month limit except in cases of emergency.
Nice counter argument. im blown away by your fact-based and articulate rebuttal of all the points i made. Honestly if this is all youre capable of why even respond at all?
