CreateDebate is a social debate community built around ideas, discussion and democracy.
If this is your first time checking out a debate, here are some quick tips to help get you started:
Arguments with the highest score are displayed first.
Argument replies (both in favor and in opposition) are displayed below the original argument.
To follow along, you may find it helpful to show and hide the replies displayed below each argument.
To vote for an argument, use these icons:
You have the power to cast exactly one vote (either up or down) for each argument.
Once you vote, the icon will become grayed out and the argument's score will change.
Yes, you can change your vote.
Debate scores, side scores and tag scores are automatically calculated by an algorithm that primarily takes argument scores into account.
All scores are updated in real-time.
To learn more about the CreateDebate scoring system, check out the FAQ.
When you are ready to voice your opinion, use the Add Argument button to create an argument.
If you would like to address an existing argument, use the Support and Dispute link within that argument to create a new reply.
Classical Liberalism, or as the Liberals of today call it, Neo-Liberalism. Essentially, the Founding Fathers believed in small government. To them, Federalism meant State power, but Federalism has turned into basically Centralized power. The Constitution is pretty much a joke at this point, and no Founding Father would see the Controlled Substance Act, the Federal income tax, and the PATRIOT Act - NDAA - etc as a good thing.
Thomas Jefferson personally wanted power to be at the most of a district level, and Thomas Paine (who inspired the Declaration of Independence) was skeptical of ANY government power. George Washington didn't like paper currency. Benjamin Franklin and James Madison hated the idea of sacrificing liberty for security (gun control, invasion of privacy, etc.) Of today, they would disagree with the platforms of the Democratic AND Republican parties and would most likely support the Libertarian Party or the Constitutionalist Party. As previously stated, I say Liberalism because they were Classical Liberals, inspired by the writings of John Locke, Adam Smith, and Thomas Hobbes. That platform does not fit the views of Liberal Democrats and Conservative Republicans.
I would basically agree with the above except that the use of the word "Liberalism" has been so twisted that it in no way relates to liberalism in the classical sense. While there is a lot on the Conservative side that I think the founders would not be cool with, the foundation of the original political philosophy is more present in conservatism.
The modern liberal or progressive political philosophy is almost a 180 on so many issues. Liberals have a different definition of rights and freedom and this changes everything.
Liberalism doesn't directly defy it but Conservatism 100% follows it to the letter. Whether or not I support Conservatism is irrelevant because I myself don't consider the founding fathers as 'unchangeable' as the right-wing may have you believe.
They were progressive, as for religious most were deist or agnostic, they held close to Christian traditions (Christmas ect.) due to there European ancestry but that's about it.
If they were alive today I can tell you this they would not agree with today's conservatives at all.
Yeah, they were progressive... compared to the British. Conservatives are trying to conserve the American tradition, so I would imagine that the founding fathers would fall within that political ideology being that they were the ones who created it.
As for religion, the majority of the founding fathers were Episcopalian/Anglican. That is what Jefferson considered himself as most of his life. He held many Christian beliefs and even made a Bible consisting of all his favorite verses. It's difficult to classify Jefferson based on his religion. He certainly wasn't an atheist and he was never affiliated with any Deist movements. The only religion he was ever openly affiliated with was Protestantism.
George Washington and James Madison were also Episcopalian. A lot of the others were Presbyterian. None of the founding fathers ever described themselves as Deists.
If the founding fathers were alive today, they probably wouldn't be happy with any of the political parties... but conservatives fit the founding father's ideology and tradition a lot better than liberals.
Not true, Modern day conservatives like David Barton have forged quotes from the founding fathers to potray them as fundementalist Christians, quotes such as "it is impossible to govern a nation without the bible" has been proven false by various historians (even christian ones) in fact many of the founding fathers said things like this:
"The government of the United States is in no way founded upon the Christian religion." - treaty of tripolli
So? David Barton is one guy. There is plenty of evidence supporting that the founding fathers were Christians. There isn't a single quote where they professed that they were Deists.
Not just David Barton: Jerry Falwell, Pat Robertson, Billy Graham, and many others over centuries have. There are many secular based quotes from the founding fathers in various private letters and documents they wrote, verified by historians, like I said before, read "Common Sense"
Show me the quotes! Then prove to me that those quotes weren't faked as well. Why do liberals like to point out the religious nuts and pretend like they represent an entire group? Today's liberal party does not match up with the classical version.
Reading "Common Sense" isn't important right now. It requires real common sense to see the BIG picture and understand it.
They believed in a secular government. That's basically all your link talks about... that doesn't have much to do with their own personal religious beliefs.
By the way, that is a terrible article to use as supporting evidence. His sources listed at the bottom come from some pretty biased sounding books and articles, excluding the quotes that he acquired from certain autobiographies... but I can almost guarantee that those had to do with government and not religion, per se.
Why would a conservative fundementalist support religous freedom, all the ones I know of in modern day era all want to force their verson of christianity on us, if they were christians, they certainly were in the most liberal sense
Honestly, I think the founding fathers relate more to modern conservatism than liberalism... but I have a feeling they wouldn't be involved in either. Maybe Libertarianism...?
They themselves never identified specifically with capitalism, im saying that if they had the knowledge of today, they would be liberals, they were very progressive for their time, there isnt a trace of evidence to convince me that they would side with the tea party
They werent religous, they were diests, they believed in a non intervening god, thomas payne and thomas jefferson were both in fact outspoken critics of organized religion (christianity in paticular), and put a seperation of church and state to prevent a theocracy from taking over. They were definently the libs of their time.
Deists decided that the founding fathers were Deist. Most of them were actually Protestants. Never once did they claim to be Deist. Jefferson believed in religious freedom... that doesn't mean he didn't have a religion of his own. The founding fathers made the Bible a required text book in schools during their time... but like I told Warjin, they were liberal in the sense that they were trying to get away from British tradition.
No, also false, Bible reading, putting God in the pledge and on the money were snuckmin later by christians over time, trying to push thier agenda under the first amendments nose, try reading the pamphlet "Common Sense" by Thomas Paine, that'll give you an idea on how most of the founding fathers viewed religion
I'm not religious, so don't think that I'm looking at this through a biased point of view.
The "under God" phrase was added to the Pledge in the 1950's... but I never brought up the pledge anyways. The Bible was a required text book during their time period, prove to me otherwise. As much as I'd like to say they weren't religious, they were!
I was a Christian when I found out that the founding fathers were secular, just because im an atheist doesnt mean Im looking at this from a biased point of view, like it or not they were Diests, not religous christians, they were only culturally christian
Okay.. well, I wasn't a Christian when I found out they weren't secular. No offense, but like it or not, I know this topic better than you. You've heard stories but don't know the facts. Give me ONE quote, just one... where the founding fathers claimed to be Deists.
I don't really accept that link as a whole, so I only skimmed through it. It's kind of a cheap looking website. Is that the only site where you could find secular quotes? I want quotes where they claim to be Deists, by the way. You didn't give me that.
Btw, they didn't claim to be Deists, this is theorized by historians off the fact that they quoted God a ton, bit didn't accept Christian Dogma, if you look up books written by Thomas Paine, you will see that he was the Christopher Hitchens of his time
See, that isn't a strong argument at all. People use the word Deist too broadly. There is zero records of the founding fathers claiming to be Deist, but a lot of evidence of them being Protestant. Based off of your arguments I can tell that you are probably younger than 21, but that can't really be proven unless I acquire a quote of you telling me so or some sort of factual document. Even if you were to tell me that you are older than 21, more evidence points to you being younger. The same goes for the founding fathers and Deism. A lot of evidence points to them being Deists, but actual records show them being Protestant. What it comes down to is what we were told by them, not what we assume about them.
Well, Thomas Jefferson did take all of his favorite verses from the Bible and put them in a book, which is now referred to as "Thomas Jefferson's Bible". It's how he got his daily dose of the Bible without having to look through all of that other mumbo jumbo.
But anyways, Quotes!: "Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other. "
-John Adams
"Religion and good morals are the only solid foundation of public liberty and happiness."
-Samuel Adams
"By our form of government, the Christian religion is the established religion; and all sects and denominations of Christians are placed upon the same equal footing, and are equally entitled to protection in their religious liberty."
-Samuel Chase
"Amongst other strange things said of me, I hear it is said by the deists that I am one of the number; and indeed, that some good people think I am no Christian. This thought gives me much more pain than the appellation of Tory; because I think religion of infinitely higher importance than politics; and I find much cause to reproach myself that I have lived so long, and have given no decided and public proofs of my being a Christian. But, indeed, my dear child, this is a character which I prize far above all this world has, or can boast."
-Patrick Henry
"This is all the inheritance I give to my dear family. The religion of Christ will give them one which will make them rich indeed."
-Patrick Henry
"I find that I agree fully with my good friend Patrick Henry when he said it cannot be emphasized too strongly or to often that this great nation was founded not by religionists, but by Christians, not on religions, but on The Gosple of Jesus Christ."
-Edward Rutledge
"I now make it my earnest prayer, that God would have you, and the State over which you preside, in his holy protection, that he would incline the hearts of the Citizens to cultivate a spirit of subordination and obedience to Government, to entertain a brotherly affection and love for one another, for their fellow Citizens of the United States at large, and particularly for their brethren who have served in the Field, and finally, that he would most graciously be pleased to dispose us all, to do Justice, to love mercy, and to demean ourselves with that Charity, humility and pacific temper of mind, which were the Characteristicks of the Divine Author of our blessed Religion, and without an humble imitation of whose example in these things, we can never hope to be a happy Nation."
-George Washington
"It is impossible to govern the world without God and the Bible. "
Nope. Not fake. I had to do some deep searching amongst many non-religious (politics, war, etc,.) quotes by the founding fathers in order to find them.
The United States is in no sense founded upon Christian doctrine - Article XI treaty of Tripoli signed by George Washington
Question even with boldness even the existence of a god; because if there be one, he must more approve the homage of reason , than that of blindfolded fear - Thomas Jefferson
This would be the best of all possible worlds if there were no religion in it - James Madison
I have found christian dogma untillegible - Benjamin Franklin
The United States is in no sense founded upon Christian doctrine - Article XI treaty of Tripoli signed by George Washington
When I search this quote, it only appears on liberal sites.
Question even with boldness even the existence of a god; because if there be one, he must more approve the homage of reason , than that of blindfolded fear - Thomas Jefferson
This doesn't disprove that Jefferson was religious.
This would be the best of all possible worlds if there were no religion in it - James Madison
That's actually a misquote... a BIG one. First off, you're misquoting John Adams not Madison... and second, he really said this: "…The Parson and the Pedagogue lived much together, but were eternally disputing about government and religion. One day, when the Schoolmaster had been more that commonly fanatical and declared if he were a Monarch, He would have but one Religion in his Dominion. The Parson cooly replied ‘Cleverly! You would be the best man in the world, if you had no religion."
and then he continues in his LETTER to Thomas Jefferson...
"Twenty times, in the course of my late reading, have I been upon the point of breaking out, ‘This would be the best of all possible worlds, if there were no religion in it!!!’ But in this exclamatic I should have been as fanatical as Bryant or Cleverly. Without religion this world would be something not fit to be mentioned in polite company, I mean Hell…”
I put emphasis on "letter" because we have tangible proof that it is a misquote, yet people still say it!
I have found christian dogma untillegible - Benjamin Franklin
Franklin was actually a Deist... so, I'll give you that one.
None of them mention Christs divinity or much of any supernatural elements, The Founding fathers may have been culturally Christian, but they completley rejected religous dogma
Jefferson's Bible doesn't mention Christ's divinity, because that wasn't his purpose for making it. He wanted a book full of inspirational verses. Reading about Christ's miracles on a daily basis doesn't have the same effect as reading positive moral guidelines. The founding fathers preached religious tolerance, but few people understand that they were actually referring to tolerance among the Christian sects.
While I believe a majority of what you said. The seperation of church and state is completely taken out of context from the original letter. Sadly many Americans believe it was put in the Constitution, which is way false.
Even if it wasn't, that doesn't prove that the Founding Fathers were religous, it in fact is stated in the constitution that no religion shall be established by the state
Correct. The original intent was to keep one denomination of Christianity from gaining a foothold, but now its all religion and I agree with this. However I think the fathers would be apalled at the people being rediculed in government for having religious basis of desicions. The original intent of speration of church and state was to keep the churches from being taxed because it is not a business. It was not meant to keep religion out of the state.
This is a no-brainer; conservativism definitely fits their ideology better. Guns, small government, capitalism. Liberalism isn't what it once was, and the founding fathers certainly wouldn't have agreed with the liberal agenda and ideology.
I would exactly say that they were small government, they sent troops to crush the whiskey rebellion, a protest group of farmers who were complaining about taxes (basically the equivalent of todays Tea party). Plus big government is only a perspective argument. Btw there is no liberal agenda, im a liberal and i know tons of other liberals and guess what... We disagree on many issues, there is no liberal agenda, how can there be when we all disagree on so many issues? Btw, being liberal doesnt mean big government, just as conservatism doesnt mean small government. For example there are liberals like Noam Chomsky and myself who are anarchists, people who believe in no government at all, and you also have big government conservatives like Rick Santorum and Michelle Bachmann who want the government to dictate what you do in the bedroom.
I would exactly say that they were small government, they sent troops to crush the whiskey rebellion, a protest group of farmers who were complaining about taxes (basically the equivalent of todays Tea party).
Actually, the whiskey insurrection was part of Alexander Hamilton's plan to increase central government power. As you know, Hamilton and Jefferson were very much opposed to each other. Everyone arrested in the insurrection was acquitted, and the Whiskey tax was repealed by Thomas Jefferson's party when it came to power! The protesters were using violence and intimidation to prove their point which is why they were arrested, the Tea Party on the other hand is a peaceful movement - not a violent rebellion.
