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28
33
Can't think of any. How about this example?
Debate Score:61
Arguments:47
Total Votes:97
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 Can't think of any. (20)
 
 How about this example? (23)

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Mr_Bombastic(132) pic



Give me just ONE example.

Some people claim that there are no moral absolutes. So here is a challenge for you. I'll bet that you cannot name one societal ill, that is the result of human actions, that is NOT a direct result of disobeying God.



Definition of societal
adjective
1.
noting or pertaining to large social groups, or to their activities,customs, etc. An example would be premarital sex.

Can't think of any.

Side Score: 28
VS.

How about this example?

Side Score: 33
2 points

False dichotomy fallacy. Things can be both a "result of human action" and a "direct result of disobeying God".

Side: Can't think of any.
2 points

Plenty of people will try and justify it, but the facts are clear. If you obey perfect laws, then you will be perfect. Durp!

Side: Can't think of any.

I believe the problem is that most people refuse to admit that there are moral absolutes. Why are they so threatened by such a concept? Everyone would agree that taking the life of an innocent would be morally wrong. That is a moral absolute. And it is also a good law to enforce. The problem occurs when moral absolutes are applied to something that person enjoys doing. They cannot even fathom that they should deny themselves, for their own good, as well as the good of others. They are focused on their own pleasure and desires, and damn anyone who says they shouldn't indulge themselves.

Side: Can't think of any.

I really can't think of any. Jesus taught us the proper way to act. Anything contrary to that is harmful to the individual, as well as society as a whole. If you look at the ten signs of a dying culture, you will notice that each and every one of them are actions contrary to Scripture. Thus, there are moral absolutes. Ignoring them will always lead to pain and suffering...because they are the opposite of what Jesus taught.

Side: Can't think of any.
JatinNagpal(2678) Disputed Banned
1 point

I'd be surprised if there was anything you could think of.

Side: How about this example?
3 points

Poverty. The poor are not necessarily there through their own fault and many simply start life that way and never climb far enough out of it. And although some rich are guilty of greed there are others who are simply successful business people, and who in fact may have helped many poor along the way though they can't help the entire world.

Education. It's not necessarily the individual's fault if they receive a bad one. It's not necessarily a sin against god that some communities don't have the resources to make it a good education for everyone.

War. Seriously, war. The Bible has countless examples of war and violence being justified in the name of God. And Just War Theory arose out of Christianity. Two countries fighting over scarce resources is not necessarily a sin against god, in fact if one country claims to be doing it in the name of god then somehow their side is OK? Both countries doing it in the name of god can happen, too.

Drug and alcohol addiction. God made the plants used to make the drugs, and alcohol. And alcohol often plays roles in Bible stories, and is even used to represent the blood of Christ. And before you talk about the moral weakness of consuming too much of alcohol or drugs consider there are people genetically predisposed to addictions.

Side: How about this example?
PhoenixHero(54) Disputed
2 points

My opening statement: You have some good points here, and it seems like you are genuinely wondering about this. I hope to answer a few of your questions with this.

Poverty. The poor are not necessarily there through their own fault and many simply start life that way and never climb far enough out of it. And although some rich are guilty of greed there are others who are simply successful business people, and who in fact may have helped many poor along the way though they can't help the entire world.

My answer: Well, the poor are poor because either they don't work to become rich, or because someone has oppressed them down. Either way, someone broke God's law.

Education. It's not necessarily the individual's fault if they receive a bad one. It's not necessarily a sin against god that some communities don't have the resources to make it a good education for everyone.

My answer: No, you are right! It is not always the individual's fault. But it is either the teacher, who didn't work on behalf of his students, the government, who didn't make it possible for this person to get an education, or the culture, that disproved of learning. All of these break God's commandments, and once again have direct results.

War. Seriously, war. The Bible has countless examples of war and violence being justified in the name of God. And Just War Theory arose out of Christianity. Two countries fighting over scarce resources is not necessarily a sin against god, in fact if one country claims to be doing it in the name of god then somehow their side is OK? Both countries doing it in the name of god can happen, too.

My answer: Are you saying there is no such thing as a just war? I beg to differ. There have been many wars that have been necessary, and even right! Take the Civil War for instance. Are you saying that going to war, and killing, yes, killing, millions of people, is not worth freeing billions from oppression? War is a terrible thing, and should be avoided, but not at all costs. If there is something so evil, that it is worth dying to destroy it, and there is no visible way to stop this evil, then war does become necessary, and even just. And again, if there was no such thing as such evil, then war would be unnecessary. But there is such a thing, and evil can only become by breaking God's commandments.

Drug and alcohol addiction. God made the plants used to make the drugs, and alcohol. And alcohol often plays roles in Bible stories, and is even used to represent the blood of Christ. And before you talk about the moral weakness of consuming too much of alcohol or drugs consider there are people genetically predisposed to addictions.

My answer: Yes, God did make those plants. And I think that you will find ever single one of those plants has a different, good use. Tobacco for instance, can be rubbed over your skin to deter mosquitoes and biting insects. It also soothes the bites. God made rocks too. But it's up to you, whether you use that stone to build the Great Wall of China, or to club someone you don't like. Now let's look at alcohol. In small doses, alcohol (wine in particular) can be extremely beneficial to your body. And you don't read about Jesus getting sopping drunk, do you? Like many things, alcohol is a good thing, in small portions. And God forbids excessive drinking, forbids doing drugs altogether. If you are doing these things, then you are in fact, disobeying God's perfect rules.

Closing argument: I hope that I have shown you that while it may not be obvious at first sight, all of these things ARE in fact, expressly forbidden by Jesus. Therefore, all evil in this world, is a direct result of humans not obeying God's commands.

Side: Can't think of any.
Grenache(6053) Disputed
3 points

I appreciate your attentive reply but I think you're stretching on most of these...

Poverty - "Well, the poor are poor because either they don't work to become rich, or because someone has oppressed them down. Either way, someone broke God's law." -

That is far too simplistic. There is a full spectrum from poor to rich and a plethora of reasons people are wherever they are along that scale. And those reasons aren't all sin, they're also plain old luck, physical and mental health, even simply who and where you're born to. Jesus emphasized compassion for the poor but just because they persist as poor doesn't mean someone failed to give compassion.

Education - "No, you are right! It is not always the individual's fault. But it is either the teacher, who didn't work on behalf of his students, the government, who didn't make it possible for this person to get an education, or the culture, that disproved of learning. All of these break God's commandments, and once again have direct results."

Again, far too simplistic. Blaming the parties involved (the student, the teacher, the government) is no way to solve this problem. And again there is a spectrum from bad to good education and a whole host of reasons people are where they are. Nor am I aware of a specific set of commandments that document from Jesus or from any god what education MUST include beyond the basic self promoting church instructions.

War - "Are you saying there is no such thing as a just war? I beg to differ. There have been many wars that have been necessary, and even right! Take the Civil War for instance. Are you saying that going to war, and killing, yes, killing, millions of people, is not worth freeing billions from oppression? War is a terrible thing, and should be avoided, but not at all costs. If there is something so evil, that it is worth dying to destroy it, and there is no visible way to stop this evil, then war does become necessary, and even just. And again, if there was no such thing as such evil, then war would be unnecessary. But there is such a thing, and evil can only become by breaking God's commandments."

Oh, but there is such a things as a just war. But that justification can come from a basic formula, it doesn't depend actually on a god. And when people believe in god differently then they both go to war believing they're doing good, so how could the harm from that war be blamed on not following god?

Drugs and Alcohol - Generally I'm going to give you this one. But I'll point out once again that some people are more susceptible to it than others and if god made everyone then he shares in that result.

Lastly, I just want to say that the lessons in religion are based on all the guidance society needed at the time the religion started. You can find rules and expectations in all the religions, which means you can extrapolate that things wrong with any society tie back to failing their god. And with that in mind, don't forget that the Aztecs who were cutting people's hearts out to improve their rain and crops also would turn to their problems and say "gee, this is all because we haven't satisfied our god", and then they'd go cut another heart out.

Side: How about this example?
-1 points

Well said! I'll admit that I wasn't really prepared to argue this. I just threw it out there to stir the pot, so to speak. And BOY, did I! Moral absolutes are like Kryptonite to these folks, and their replies prove it.

Side: Can't think of any.
0 points

Good luck explaining him the difference between religion and divine authority.

I've talked enough to conclude that it'd be hard and not worth doing (at least for me).

Side: How about this example?
1 point

"Societal ills" are subjectively defined. For instance, I don't consider premarital sex a societal ill, nor do I consider the equality of women and men a societal ill, nor do I consider a secular constitution and a church separated legally from state, a societal ill.

Even if we could somehow determine a consensus on all societal ills, and then prove that all of these ills could be avoided by doing what the bible says (which of course, we can't), it still wouldn't mean that morals are objective nor that Christianity is true nor that God is real.

Plenty of bad things happen in the world precisely because of people who think they are obeying God. Suicide bombers believe they are obeying God by blowing themselves up in the name of Islam. The KKK believe they are obeying God by partitioning white and black people. The nutty Faith-healers and Born Agains believe they are obeying God by suppressing free inquiry and forcing their children to undertake education based on falsified evidence, in the name of God.

But more to the point: morals do not exist without humans. There is no morality floating around in the air that is unrelated or distinct from human society, thought, emotion, culture or nature. Morals are human distinctions between right and wrong behaviours. Behaviour is subjective, distinction between behaviour is subjective, moral perspective is subjective, and most importantly: the decision to believe in an entity out of nothing but faith -- despite a complete lack of evidence of his existence -- is a SUBJECTIVE choice.

What I consider a society without societal ills is a society where people are safe, free, fed, hydrated, educated in fact, where exploitation is extremely limited, where medical care is accessible and quality, where chidren do not starve, where murder, rape, theft, assault and child abuse are eradicated, where criminals are re-habilitated effectively, where compassion and altruism are aspired to more than selfishness. And the societies that most represent these ideals today, are the democratic societies with the most atheists in them: Iceland, Finland, Denmark, Norway, Sweden. And in fact, in the last number of years, the most horrible additions to these nations, in terms of atrocity and societal ill, has been religion, notably Islam.

It's the same story across the world. Undemocratic countries are usually theocracies, and theocracies are almost always brutal, violent, and unenlightened.

The partial exception to this is the USA, but again, Christian conservatives tend more than liberal atheists to be uber-capitalists; to be for the introduction of creationist myth in science class; to be against the tenets of charity and benevolence that the main character of the Christian religion aspired to; tend to be less educated than atheists; tend to be illiberal, oppressive, racist, small-minded, short-sighted, anti-science, anti-progressive, anti-free-education, anti-free-healthcare, xenophobic, backward; in the extreme: theocratic.

And it just so happens that the parts of the US with the highest crime and highest incarceration rates and highest rates of murder and teenage pregnancy and rape and poverty, are the parts with the most Christians in them.

Go figure.

It isn't religion that makes a society great and moral and safe and free and educated and well fed and hydrated and fair, it's education. Where there is strong religion in the world: there is poverty, crime, oppression, hate, racism, xenophobia, fear and inequality. All over the world, undemocratic and/or heavily religious countries share these issues: Syria, Lebanon, Jordan, Saudi-Arabia, UAE, North Korea, India, Israel, Palestine, Iraq, Afghanistan, Libya, Kuwait, Oman, Yemen, Brazil, Columbia, Mexico, South Africa, even the US, one of the most violent and dangerous developed countries in the world.

And where religion and tyranny have taken a back seat to education, freedom and democracy, you find societies far more enlightened and safe.

And in fact, the common denominator between an oppressive dictatorship (as in North Korea), an oppressive theocracy (as in Iraq or Afganistan) and a violent democracy (as in the US or India), is this need to believe in bullshit and invest power in an ultimate authority. In the USA, the ultimate authority is God; in Stalinist Russia, the ultimate authority is Stalin; in North Korea, it is Kim Jong Un; in India, it is Shiva or Allah; in Saudi Arabia it is Allah and the Royal Family as blessed as they seem to be.

There's this stupid notion that morals and laws and rules and power and jurisdiction need to come from some master source, where all things are adjudicated and where all rights are defined and where all power is vested. And it is total bullshit. We are humans, the stewards and holders of immense power and responsibility on this planet: we need morals to survive, to thrive, and to live in harmony: we determine those morals: and WE, together, ought to be doing that as equals.

Don't renounce the right you were born with, and definitely don't blindly defer your own moral responsibility and authority over to a singular entity to mishandle as they will. It's cheap, it's nasty and it's far too easy.

Time for us all to grow up.

Side: How about this example?
1 point

You're presupposing the existence of God. Demonstrate his existence before concluding disobedience of this god has any bearing on "societal ills".

Side: How about this example?
outlaw60(15368) Disputed
2 points

Heading of the post reads-"Some people claim that there are no moral absolutes. So here is a challenge for you. I'll bet that you cannot name one societal ill, that is the result of human actions, that is NOT a direct result of disobeying God."

No presumption of God was made nor the existence of a God but you Progressives have to spin out when you can't answer !

Side: Can't think of any.
sylynn(626) Disputed
1 point

You even included the presumption in quoting the premise. Learn to read and just get out of here. Go back to your endless political rants, debates of religion don't suit you. I'm done with you.

Side: How about this example?
0 points

There you go, trying to shift the goal posts. This thread is not about the existence of God, but of Gods law. This law DOES exist, wherever it came from. And there is conclusive evidence that disobeying this law results in bad things happening. Do you dispute this?

Side: Can't think of any.
sylynn(626) Disputed
0 points

Of course I dispute this! Without demonstrating such god exists to create this law, how can I believe there are consequences for disobeying it?

Side: How about this example?
1 point

Now that I see it, it is too easy. Though my older arguments - all of them - still stand uncountered, and it's still a stupid question, among the other things (including, but not limited to, your being an idiot). It only seems hard due to the question being stupid.

Show me the verses where your primitive faith, Christianity (at this point, if I may ask, which denomination are you from? I'd guess something close to a Mormon, btw, which incidentally reads like moron.), says against it, directly (pertaining to your own statement).

Biological warfare

Chemical warfare

Slavery

Extreme gender discrimination

Irrationality

Testing potentially lethal substances on animals

Racial discrimination (including the Apartheid)

Poor hygiene

Releasing too much of harmful gases, including the greenhouse ones

Dumping highly reactive waste without prior treatment

Mass brainwashing and propaganda (including the events leading to the holocaust)

I'm bored, so that's all for now.

Also, all the items of historical significance were followed in societies following the Bible. And I'm yet to include Islam, the other religion with an Abrahamic God.

Side: How about this example?
1 point

Now that I see it, it is too easy. Though my older arguments - all of them - still stand uncountered, and it's still a stupid question, among the other things (including, but not limited to, your being an idiot). It only seems hard due to the question being stupid.

Show me the verses where your primitive faith, Christianity (at this point, if I may ask, which denomination are you from? I'd guess something close to a Mormon, btw, which incidentally reads like moron.), says against it, directly (pertaining to your own statement).

Biological warfare

Chemical warfare

Slavery

Extreme gender discrimination

Irrationality

Testing potentially lethal substances on animals

Racial discrimination (including the Apartheid)

Poor hygiene

Releasing too much of harmful gases, including the greenhouse ones

Dumping highly reactive waste without prior treatment

Mass brainwashing and propaganda (including the events leading to the holocaust)

I'm bored, so that's all for now.

Also, all the items of historical significance were followed in societies following the Bible. And I'm yet to include Islam, the other religion with an Abrahamic God.

Side: How about this example?
0 points

Also, it's one of the worst questions I've seen on the website, overshadowed only by the times when some fanatics were at their worst in reason.

Downvote or ban me all you want - you're just the next account of SaintNow.

Side: How about this example?

Mentally disabled people.

Side: How about this example?

What behavior created these mentally disabled people? I asked for human caused societal ills. Actually, mentally disabled babies are often the result of doing drugs. I assume you know the Biblical view of drugs.

Side: How about this example?
Jacobcoolguy(2428) Clarified
1 point

"...the Biblical view on drugs."

Side: Can't think of any.
0 points

Disobeying WHICH "god"?? Which "book of rules"?? And why would you have to disobey a god to start a war, (most seem to recommend it UNLESS everybody follows the "unseen one"), prevent women from getting health care (OR her fetus / baby). Closing Planned Parenthood facilities does BOTH! Leaves a poor woman, or a woman with no available transportation to get to one of the few that remain open puts BOTH the mother and baby in jeopardy! The U.S. was ranked 174th out of 193 countries in infant death AFTER birth, mostly because of bad (or no), prenatal and postnatal care. Shame on the "Christians" that are so narrow minded that they can't see the damage they do!

Side: How about this example?
outlaw60(15368) Disputed
2 points

Al there is no prenatal and no postnatal care in the United States of America ? When did that happen ?

Side: Can't think of any.
AlofRI(3294) Clarified
0 points

You really don't read well, do you? I said for "poor people" that can't afford it. THAT happened when religious conservatives started closing down the 175 PP centers that were in reach of the unfortunates that NEEDED them! Babies are dying left and right (well, at least right), since then ... be proud. (AND ... learn how to interpret a thought, it helps.)

Side: Can't think of any.
Mr_Bombastic(132) Clarified
0 points

Oh, come on! You know perfectly well which God I'm referring to. When a Westerner, especially in the the USA, mentions God, they are referring to the God of Jacob. You would know this if you had read my initial reply that started this topic. Pay attention.

Side: Can't think of any.
AlofRI(3294) Clarified
1 point

Oh, I didn't realize you considered the U.S. the only religious place in the world. Yeah, I know the "god" YOU are referring to, but that's not the only god in this world. Reality is not an American Christian trait. The American Christian trait is that everyone else in this world is wrong and only WE are right (no pun intended).

"You would know this if you had read my initial reply that started this topic." Your initial reply noted large social groups and customs ... it DID NOT specify large American social groups and American customs. See, that's the problem with religious fanatics, they only see things from their country's religious perspective, like Iran etc.. That's why religions cause so many wars, so much hate.

Side: Can't think of any.
-1 points

Whichever religion you are following.

Side: How about this example?