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God?
Is there a God?
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You look at his question and think that he's foolish but it's actually very clever and here's why. It's because there are no doubt HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS of god's man has made up over the years of our existence. His question asks which one you mean because theyre all as unlikely to exist as the last. What makes your god different from Zeus? Or he wiccan goddess? Or Thor? 1 thing and 1 thing only. Your god is what's "In" right now in history. What's "popular" or "hip". The Christian god has about as much evidence for existing as Horus or zeus and that's slim to none. As far as prove of distinction bt my God and any other, there isn't. Its a simple faith. You either choose this relationship or you don't. Your evidence can only produce so much, same as my evidence but in the end it's our natural state of mind that makes our reasoning. We are only human and imperfect. Now according to the bible, God is supernatural and all knowing (i think you could agree there's something out there other than just humans....whether it be ufo's, ghost, whatever...you can just feel that theres something out there). I see it as ignorance when a natural mind tries to say they're right and that's it. You'd probably say im doing the same, but im not relying solely on my own reason. Its like a son who knows he was created and has a father but yet tries to say no im right and that's it....just bc he has never seen his father. 1
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True it comes down to evidence. And I think you'll agree that it's more logical to side with the more plentifully and weighty evidence than the side with little to none. That's the case here. I'm siding with the most evidence. Im not interested in what the bible says. That book is false. Even without it I know that it is asserted that god is supernatural, outside time and space, ect. There is something out there other than us...animals, plants, other galaxies, forces of physics, ect. I believe there are things that we cannot currently explain with our current knowledge and technology and perhaps that will always be the case. I do not however, believe that there are things that CAN'T ever be explained. For example, we may not be able to explain ghosts and paranormal activity but that doesnt mean it can't be explained through natural scientific principles. You're taking on the assumption that I'm saying theres no god and that's the end of it I'm right blah blah blah. No that's not it at all. I reject the existence of all deities ive been presented with including the Christian god due to a lack of sufficient evidence that has been provided to back them up. I know I could be wrong and I can't PROVE theres no god. But I understand you can't prove there is and i am siding with those with the most evidence. The analogy you provided equates god, that we do not know if he exists, with a "father" which obviously MUST exist. This is clearly wrong because god does not have to exist to create the "son". In actuality god is a supernatural being that has absolutely ZERO hard evidence for existing and does not have to exist at all and the "son" is the universe/earth/humanity which do exist and are not dependent on a creator for existing and in fact, have occured through natural processes. And the bible clearly talks about that (people relying on their own understanding). What's crazy is that evidence by the same people that have supplied you with your argument have said that we only use 10% of our brain. Now whether you believe that or I not, according to my belief I see it as "what say so do we have to question God on his existence when we're only using 10%!!". Even if we were to use 100% it still wouldn't matter to a God that created the whole universe and all the galaxies. Not sure if you have a son or not but what if your son started to look at you and honestly thought he knew more than you at the age of 8. Bc honestly and again I'm going off of what I believe if God is real, bare with me now, we as humans who can only live on this earth up to the avg 75 to 100 or a little more at most are ignorantly thinking we got things figured out to a God who know no time nor age. He is all knowing and all powerful. Yes I know you'll call me ignorant, but it actually makes sense to me and the bible talks about it how there will be people like you who go off of evidence and deep analyzation bc you are in deed a person who only goes off what you understand. 1
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We use 100% of our brains. Only 10% is conscious thought. The other 90% is muscle function, reflexes, breathing, ect. I also fail to see how that unused part has anything to do with understanding god. The way I see it if your argument was valid then it would help discourage his existence. God made us in his image and perfect (hypothetically) so If we only used 10% of our minds that'd be a flaw. Same with our unused Apendixes that do nothing but explode and kill us. Why would god make something with flaws? We don't have it ALL figured out but we got a LOT. The bible was written by anonymous bronze age primitives 2000 years ago who made up what they thought was right. So did the Greeks and Norse German tribes. Every culture. I'm gonna side with the modern age scientific community thank you. So the bible warns of people who will be too smart and logical like humanity should be who won't buy the story without question? That's funny. Basically it says in simpler terms "don't rely on your own understanding". Not warning against smart people. That's why I also brought up even if us humans don't use 10% and we do indeed use 100% it still wouldn't matter to a God that is all knowing and is our creator. How could a creation tell its creator "no, it's done like this!" Some of the smartest people in this world or the scientist who came up with the claims that we only use 10% can't even come in agreement whether its 10% or 100%....do you not see how your trusting in your own self which is imperfect unless your ignorant to say your perfect.....and I'm sure you wouldn't. 1
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It wouldn't matter if this god exists which you have yet to prove. Yes scientists can agree. We use 100%, but 10% is conscious thought function. Simple. I don't say I'm perfect, but just because that's so doesn't mean I have to go believing in sky daddies foregoing all rational thought, logic, and evidence for the contrary. Yes it WOULD matter if God exist bc then if my argument is correct, you'd be in trouble (don't want to get into all that) and wrong on so many levels. You would also have to accept that although you have your evidence, logic, and rationalized notions, you would still have to believe in certain things although you might not fully understand them. I'm sure there's things that right now you believe in even though your not 100% sure.....everything in this world is not absolute 1
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The point is i believe in things that i undersand and the things i dont fully understand i believe in because i have reason to, if not all the facts. For example, i accept the big bang as a reasonable theory as to how the universe was created. I dont fully understand it as it is immensely complicated quantum physics but i do understand the basic principles and what it says. I believe it because there is a logos appeal behind it in that much of the scientific community accepts it and therefore there must be reasonable evidence for it because its still being studied. If it was really wrong it wouldve been thrown out already (like creation was in 1850). So yeah, i do believe in certain things i dont fully understand but it all comes back to logic and evidence. If i know the evidence exists to back it up i dont have to seek it out and commit it to memory. With god that is not the case. With god there is no logos appeal. No evidence to investigate. Alot against him though. Science has discarded him as believeable and based on all those things and more i have no reason to believe in him. Also you keep giving all these hypothetical scenarios instead of real evidence. You just said if he exists then you would be in trouble because ____. Which corrolates with the equation: If A then B because C. You are focused on the B. but the B doesnt matter without A, or gods existence. So please let us delve into that question before moving on. Again, if I haven't said it already...evidence/reason will only get you so far. There's a limit to how much you can learn. You could spend your whole lifetime studying and trying to prove how God doesn't exist. You could even go the rest of your life getting smarter and smarter and gaining more and more knowledge but when it's all said and done then what??? Now trust me I'm all about gaining knowledge. I've graduated college with a business degree and plan to have my kids go through the same as far as going to college. You solely based what you will accept through you evidence and understanding but ask yourself this.....is it worth it?? Are you satisfied with where your at??? 1
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evidence/reason will only get you so far. yep, eventually you reach a valid conclusion. You could spend your whole lifetime studying and trying to prove how God doesn't exist. You could even go the rest of your life getting smarter and smarter and gaining more and more knowledge but when it's all said and done then what??? I can and will. In the end humanity will have either disproven him, or have THAT much more evidence against hi. So realy god gets more rediculous with time.Espcially when we see religious to atheist conversion rates increasing dramatically in the past few years projcted to maintain that incline. By then end we my not have disproven god, but we wil lhave far less of a religous community. Now trust me I'm all about gaining knowledge. I've graduated college with a business degree and plan to have my kids go through the same as far as going to college. A business degree? And you're debating with me over a mainly scientific and historical issue? Its easy to discredit evidence when either you havent seen it or dont understand it. You solely based what you will accept through you evidence and understanding yep, as all rational 21st century homosapien sapiens should.
but ask yourself this.....is it worth it?? Are you satisfied with where your at??? Very worth it. I have alot of knowledge about many topics in my research that others do not. I have a different, more mature outlook on life and the world around me. Ive discovered one of my passions. And have joined an ever growing percentage of intellegent, rational thinkers. Im only 16 I wouldn't suggest that you stop pursuing whatever it is as far as making a career. Ummm I'd like to propose a certain statistic since I know you like evidence. Now this was told from one of my professors who did a study on ethical behavior. I'm not asking you to fully believe what I'm about to say but consider it. A study was found that the less an individual obtains as far as knowledge, the more likely it is that he or she will rely on himself or herself only, due to the fact that he or she first of all doesn't care to make an effort to learn or mentally can't comprehend certain thing (dumb). Therefore, they get a low income and hard working job and live life as best they can. Same is also said for some of the smartest people who graduate with doctorates degree/multiple degrees under their belt, the status quo "well of" both knowledge and career wise. Although they don't have a low paying/hardworking Job and are noticeably smarter, they still tend to rely on themselves just as much as the first minority I talked about. Now I find it interesting, you might not, that these two minorities have these two traits in common. Again, it's not every single person...just statistics based off of people's behavior. 1
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Well im not going to throw that away and discredit you thought you must realize thats only one study. The study says those who rely on themselves. As in, those who rely soley on what they know and can do. This means they make no effort to attain goals and advance in society. I do not rely solely on what i know. I rely on what i continue to gain. And i dont rely soley on myself alone. I rely on society, on friends, on my knowledge, on the knowledge i work to gain or will gain, ect. There are many other factors. Now this is significant for the minority at become "poor and dumb". But the way i see it, if im rich and smart with a masters living it up, who cares what i rely on? It worked. Interesting verse for that and I'm not one to quote verses bc I know people will then try and point out another verse and misinterpret it completely, but Matthew 16:26 "what does it do for a man to gain the whole world and lose his soul"...take it how you want it or don't take it all. The bible although 1,000's of years old has some pretty incredible stuff, but just to clarify with you, just bc i find it incredible isn't the only reason i abide by it 1
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NYOB what they do, though. http://www.youtube.com/ Have you seen these? Okay, that's terribly twisted and wrong in so many ways, but let's get back to the debate- god. My opinion is that if it did indeed exist, it would have had a height of power before getting bored/killed/or whatever deities do... I don't believe it is omnipotent, and I know that it didn't create the earth. Yes there is a god; for us to wake up every morning and to breath is a good sign that someone is watching over us. And some people don't believe that. I am hear to say that there is only one God and he is up in heaven right now watching you to see if you are doing the right thing Yeah!!!!!! Awesome man! I think people tend to look at the big things and over analyze everything with proof/evidence and even try to break it down to the most complicated elements and then break down those as well. When all they have to do is look at the small things from another perspective other than just reason and logic 1
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I wouldn't consider myself a religious person, but what is your proof that there is no god? It would not be logical to automatically assume that there is no god without any evidence. Faith and science r two separate entities, by definition, faith cannot be disproven by logic or reason; faith is believing in something that you have no proof or evidence for. 1
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Trust me I was only getting started. You cannot prove that there is not a god just like you'll say I can't prove that there is. You'll believe in what you want to believe bc your own logic has brought you to that assumption. Either way at the end of the day your going off of "faith". Which is something that God himself created. Now, there's def irony in that! Lol but of course continue to not believe in God, he'll continue to believe in you ;) 1
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You can't prove gods real therefore the claim that he made faith is false. Faith is a word invented by man. I do back my disbelief up with logic but that comes from the evidence I have gathered. Based off my historical and scientific research over the years I made a logical educated decision that I reject the notion of god being true. Show me your evidence to consider. it is still a self reason that consequently has a limit. im refering to the orgin of faith. and my evidence is my faith that there is an all knowing supernatural God that in more simpler terms knows more than just logic and experiments that have petty evidence that comes from man. 1
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Based on your "evidence" this is your claim: "there is a god because I believe there's a god" which is flawed logic through and through. Also you're saying that anything that comes from man can't be trusted. Well if that were true then that means two things: 1) anything man has ever made/said is wrong including all scientific advances like medicine, physics, and technology. Which is not true. Man said gravity exists. It does exist. And 2) that the bible can't be trusted either! It works against you! Man wrote the bible so by your logic it can't be trusted. Which funny enough is true. It was written 2000 years ago and is absolutely riddled with absurditites and inaccuracies both historically and scientifically. But that'd besides the point.. I'm not saying man is always wrong! Shoot I'm a man and I'm hardly ever wrong! Jk. Look, it comes down to this...whether than proving evidence and claims and experiments and what not that there is either a God and a bible that is true or not, one of us will be right and one will be wrong. 1
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Again, faith to me is stronger than evidence. Yea, of course id love to show you evidence. Let me ask you a question do you believe you have a great great great great great grandma? In sure you do. You have no actual proof, but only a strong assumption based off the fact that your head today. You see, that is where I'm coming from 1
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Again, faith to me is stronger than evidence Big problem. You should never take pure blind belief over evidence! That's absurd! That makes you foolish and ignorant. you have a great great great great great grandma? In sure you do. You have no actual proof, but only a strong assumption based off the fact that your head today. You see, that is where I'm coming from Yes I have a great great great great grandma. I do have proof. A) I exist. My existence depends on that I decended from her. If she didnt exist I wouldn't. B) I can easily google and trace back my family line to her with documents and pictures to prove her existence. This proved absolutely nothing. How about scientific proof? Historical proof? Physical evidence/observation? 1
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I don't believe we had a disagreement. I think he misunderstood me as wanting more people who believe in god in the world, but that is not what I meant. I just want more people who already believe in god, to come on this site. I do not want more of them in the world, many of them are a detriment to society. 1
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All of them? Of course not, that would be an incorrect generalization. There are christians who are obnoxious, just as there are atheists who are obnoxious. I don't know numbers on either though. I have personally encountered quite a few that have been rather obnoxious about their belief in god, especially in their criticism of my lack of belief in their deity. 1
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I have many beliefs, but the problem I see is when people adopt this attitude of "it's impossible for me to be wrong". There are quite a few of my beliefs where I could be wrong. What changes my beliefs, is when people present to me evidence that my currently held beliefs are wrong. The problem is, some people reject evidence as a reliable metric of truth in certain matters, but accept it whole heartedly in other matters. This is your position Jamador. And it is one that you still haven't addressed. It is called cognitive dissonance, which is defined as "The state of having inconsistent thoughts, beliefs, or attitudes, esp. as relating to behavioral decisions and attitude change." (I assume) You whole heartedly accept evidence and the application of math and science in every day life, but not on your religious beliefs. What justification do you have for this exception? I think their confidence in their faith is what annoys you. A lot of people, even myself, have looked at Christian and thought that the way they acted was arrogant. Look at it like this though....if you knew that at the end of the day you were going to win $1,000,000, wouldn't you walk and talk a certain way. When you know something rather you 100% sure or not (hope), it changes your perspective completely. Your no longer looking at all the negative stuff, but what lies ahead. It is simply faith. I know there are many technical terms out there for just about everything. That's what us humans do to simplify things so that we can understand them. It's our human nature to look at something, whatever it may be, judge it good or bad based off of what we think and then name it such and such or so so. I think their confidence in their faith is what annoys you. A lot of people, even myself, have looked at Christian and thought that the way they acted was arrogant. Look at it like this though....if you knew that at the end of the day you were going to win $1,000,000, wouldn't you walk and talk a certain way. When you know something rather you 100% sure or not (hope), it changes your perspective completely. Your no longer looking at all the negative stuff, but what lies ahead. It is simply faith. I know there are many technical terms out there for just about everything. That's what us humans do to simplify things so that we can understand them. It's our human nature to look at something, whatever it may be, judge it good or bad based off of what we think and then name it such and such or so so. Hebrews 11:1 tells us that faith is “being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see.” When your all about evidence and "prove to me this" "prove to me that..." then you will in essence never comprehend one of the most simple things in life, faith. 1
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When your all about evidence and "prove to me this" "prove to me that..." then you will in essence never comprehend one of the most simple things in life, faith. What you don't realize is that faith is what is honestly holding your mind captive. Evidence is how we know when people are bull shitting us or not. Religion says you don't need evidence, because of that very reason. There is none! If people fully adopted an evidence based approach to everything, instead of adopting for everything else in life except religion, we wouldn't be believing in religion anymore. Religion says you don't need evidence, because the ones in power know that a genuine pursuit of evidence will make most if not all people non believers. The evidence is what bears out the truth, not faith. Think of all the kids in America who believe in Santa Claus, they GENUINELY believe in Santa Claus. They have faith in his existence, based on the "evidence" of cookies halfway eaten and presents under the tree. Two points I want to make. The kids don't know that that isn't really evidence of Santa Claus. Second, the kids have TREMENDOUS faith in Santa's existence, but that doesn't cause Santa Claus to be real. Similarly, all 7 billion people on this planet can believe in God, and that will not make God real. He either does exist, or he does not. And if we look at the evidence for God, it is highly unlikely that he exists. Id easily and strongly disagree. Faith is what is giving me freedom. Your bound by logic which you have even admitted or can admit has limits and boundaries Your right religion wouldnt be around if we took that approach. Where would we be then? I think we'd live in a world that's more corrupt than ever! People would walk around only believing what they understand and comprehend. There would be no hope. Only hope there would be is in man. And man is the last thing you want to put hope in....(psalms 146:3) "Don't put your confidence in powerful people; there is no help for you there." I just think and feel free to disagree or agree that todays society puts a lot of trust in man alone. In essence that is exactly what the scripture is saying not to do. Is there respect for the wealthy and smart people in the world who have worked the way to the top or naturally gained it? Of course, plus the bible teaches to respect all. Its when and this is my main point, we as humans rely on other humans or our own reason alone. That is what God doesn't approve of. Look at it this way. You'll create or have kids one day if you don't already. Ok....just like God created us and we are his sons and daughters, you too will one day by choice or maybe not lol have sons and daughters as well. What if they never looked at you as their person to go to. They instead went to his or her brother or sister and believed them, but never you. Im sure the other brother or sister can be used as a reliable and creditable individual, but still you as the father of that son or daughter would love it if they came to you. That is exactly how it is with God. Im not saying don't ever believe evidence or proof. Im simply stating that if that's your only source/highest source as far as what determines what you do or don't believe in, then that according to my faith is wrong. Of course its so much easier to believe things that are right in front of you (evidence)which then gives you your reason. Its a lot harder and is even criticized to believe in God and the christian faith (matthew 7:13) "Enter by the narrow gate. For the gate is wide and the way is easy that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many". My Faith is my truth. Your truth is evidence and what can be proven and that itself is man made. Your right all 7 billion could believe and that wouldn't change whether he exist or not. 1
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Your bound by logic which you have even admitted or can admit has limits and boundaries The limits of logic are where illogicality take place. The limits of faith are nothing, for you can believe in literally anything with faith. Logic, fortunately, does not allow me to believe in just anything. Your right religion wouldnt be around if we took that approach. Where would we be then? In a FAR BETTER world. If the world had people who operated primarily on the scientific method as a thought process, it wouldn't be a huge stretch of the imagination to easily see us becoming a Star Trek civilization sometime down the road. There wouldn't be any of this "My religion is the true religion, die nonbeliever!". In the scientific community, if there are disputes, they get worked out through rational thought and reason. Not through violence and propaganda. It would be a scientific society that focused on promoting the well being of man kind by solving problems like the AIDs problem in Africa by developing potentially some type of cure, or perhaps focusing on better techniques for increasing crop output we could end world hunger. If we had a society focused on science, we would solve many of the worlds problems several orders of magnitude faster than we currently do. I think we'd live in a world that's more corrupt than ever! People would walk around only believing what they understand and comprehend. Prison stats would disagree with you. As a percentage, atheists and non religious are VASTLY OUTNUMBERED by religious people in prisons. have sons and daughters as well. What if they never looked at you as their person to go to. They instead went to his or her brother or sister and believed them, but never you. Im sure the other brother or sister can be used as a reliable and creditable individual, but still you as the father of that son or daughter would love it if they came to you. That is exactly how it is with God. I would be fine with that, because I would respect that my child has their own way of doing things. When/if I have children, I will not tell them what religion to believe or to lack belief in all religion. I won't even touch the subject really. I will let them come to me and ask me why it is that everybody believes in "jesus" and "god", and what I think about it. I won't indoctrinate them with "there is no god", because I believe that they should choose their religious beliefs themselves, without the guilt and discomfort that I and many other formerly religious people experienced when questioning God or their religion. Instead, they will be free to choose without any emotional guilt or discomfort to govern or heavily influence their decision. Im not saying don't ever believe evidence or proof. Im simply stating that if that's your only source/highest source as far as what determines what you do or don't believe in, then that according to my faith is wrong. But you're the most important fact here. The scientific method is the most reliable method to the truth that we know of. Faith cannot come near it. Because if one wishes to pursue it enough, their faith will "never be wrong" because evidence doesn't matter with faith. With the scientific method, we can at least be honest with ourselves and admit that we were wrong in the past and correct our beliefs and ideas to reflect new data or evidence. The evidence is what leads us to the truth, blind faith has no bearing on truth at all. You strongly believing in something will not "make" it true. If I have a tiny amount of evidence, I can form an idea about it and there is a small chance I might be correct. If I have a MASSIVE amount of evidence, I can form an idea about it and have a much higher chance of being correct. The accuracy of your idea GOES UP with the MORE EVIDENCE you have. Compare that with faith. If I have a tiny amount of faith, it might be true. If i have TONS AND TONS of faith, it still might be true. The chance of being true DOES NOT increase if your FAITH INCREASES. This is the difference between belief based on evidence and belief based on faith.-- My Faith is my truth. Your truth is evidence and what can be proven and that itself is man made. Your faith is your illusion of truth. The truth is entirely independent of whatever you or I believe. Evidence is what leads us to the truth. Faith has no method with which to lead you to the truth. Faith is just "believe this, and stick to it no matter who or what disagrees with it". The limits of logic are where illogicality take place. Either way you do have a limit. You will one day get old and die, just like everyone else. Just like your body is limited to growing, so is your mind. Am i saying were all idiots? haha no! It's obvious that some individuals are able to comprehend more than others. My main point on this subject is that as humans, our ability to know and understand everything there is to ever know will never be accomplished. In a FAR BETTER world. If the world had people who operated primarily on the scientific method as a thought process Your right in the aspect that people would operate primarily on the scientific method, but that again would prove my arguement right as far as how so many people would then look to our scientist and political leaders for answers. Scientist and our goverment leaders have failed us and would fail us if we went that route. Don't get me wrong, im not trying to say that scientist and politicians are all evil. I'm sure they would have some good morals and want whats right, but look at our goverment and scientist now.....none of them can agree on the same thing. They are basically just like me and you. Both of us strongly feel that what we're saying is right. Even through rational thought and reason, our goverment cannot agree on certain things. One party always becomes stubborn to their opinion. As a percentage, atheists and non religious are VASTLY OUTNUMBERED by religious people in prisons. I think the reason for that is because it sometimes takes a person to get there to understand that doing what they want whenever they want (going off themselves) leads them to that type of place. Therefore, thats where they try to change their life around. Its like that quote from the gridiron gang lol "doing it your way got you here". I would be fine with that, because I would respect that my child has their own way of doing things. I think it would bother you. Of course i can't speak for you but im sure its something that you'll find out. And when i gave this scenario, i meant a young daughter or son that completely ignores you when you know as a dad that they should be going to you, you know what i mean. What if your son didnt even acklowedlge your advice, instead he just went off with his 8 or 9 year old friend and asked him some key questions that we all know another 8 or 9 year old wouldn't fully know. The scientific method is the most reliable method to the truth that we know of. Your right about a lot of things in the paragraph this senetence belongs to as well as your last paragraph, but heres what i hope for you to understand, maybe not fully but just to consider. God doesn't want you to fully understand him, he wants you to obey him. Now hold up before you reply to this statement alone. Let me ellaborate...and again, i go back to the example of your future son because the relationship God wants to have is just like that, father to son. I also think thats why he allows us to have so many different relationships, to basically show us how he feels and what hes wanting just as we like to have true and loving relationships with people. Ok sorry for chasing a rabbit, now back to what i was going to say...As a dad im sure there will be times where you won't explain every little detail to your boy, you'll simply just want him to know that what your doing is indeed in his best interest becasue you love him. Im not saying you wont sit down and explain to him certain things bc im sure you will, dont get me wrong now.Theres lots of things that when i was young, even through the ages of 15-20 (when i thought i knew it all) that i questioned so many things that my parents told me! I disagreed with them so many times! Argued with them just like any other 18 year old would and its not till now that im finally understanding "oh ok man they were right!" But yet at that age i completely and totally thought they were in the wrong! Why? Becuase i only understood what i knew and the evidence that i had before me. My parents and im sure that whenever you become a parent,you will from time to time do the same, wanted me to simply obey them rather than understand them. So many times as human we're just like that typical 18 year old kid, but with only more knowledge, we disagree with so many things because we feel like we know it all when really all God is wanting is our obedience. Just like any loving parent, he really does love us and is wanting the best for us despite our unanswered questions we may have or resentment towards him because of a time that we felt he let us down. Thats what he's wanting from me and thats what he's wanting from you 1
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Either way you do have a limit. This is kind of a moot point. Having "no limits" is not a positive thing for faith. It allows people to believe in the most ridiculous things, because evidence is optional. Scientist and our goverment leaders have failed us and would fail us if we went that route. I didn't say government leaders, I said a society that emphasized science instead of Justin Bieber and football. We don't know if it would fail us because we haven't been in a society where science took precedence. They are basically just like me and you. Both of us strongly feel that what we're saying is right. But your argument rests on just what you think, gut feelings, and experience. Mine rests on evidence and data, primarily. Even through rational thought and reason, our goverment cannot agree on certain things. One party always becomes stubborn to their opinion. Our government used to be able to do it in a satisfactory manner. But sometime during the 90s the republican party began this movement towards the right and continued to where we are now, where the republican party fits this "always becomes stubborn" part of your argument. The republican party is committing obstructionism in congress. Not only that, but they like to use the country's financial rating and economy as a betting chip, in order to make Obama to cave to their demands. I think the reason for that is because it sometimes takes a person to get there to understand that doing what they want whenever they want (going off themselves) leads them to that type of place. But then why is it that atheists don't need this type of "life experience" to be good people? Atheists appear to be able to accomplish being a law abiding citizen, and a good person, all without going to prison. Why is it that the religious cannot do this? Do they really have to rape, murder, and steal and end up in prison to realize the immorality of their decisions? i meant a young daughter or son that completely ignores you when you know as a dad that they should be going to you, you know what i mean. What if your son didnt even acklowedlge your advice, instead he just went off with his 8 or 9 year old friend and asked him some key questions that we all know another 8 or 9 year old wouldn't fully know. You're asking me to predict my reaction to arbitrary hypotheticals. Seeing as how this situation hasn't happened, and i highly doubt it would happen, I don't feel much of a need to respond. Because you're automatically assuming that I made some key mistake in being a parent that would cause my son/daughter to either distrust or be apathetic towards my advice. Your right about a lot of things in the paragraph this senetence belongs to as well as your last paragraph, but heres what i hope for you to understand, maybe not fully but just to consider. The general gist of what you were saying, I already understand and I am aware of it. God doesn't want you to fully understand him, he wants you to obey him. He's not even real though. Just so you know how this looks to me; Due to your lack of evidence, this is about as convincing as an ancient greek coming up to you and asking if you believe in Apollo. And yet both of these gods, yours and Apollo, there are equivalent amounts of evidence, which is to say none. They are both equally valid. Both the ancient greek and you claim to "feel" god's presence, or if not you then other christians certainly do. There isn't any reliable way to discern which god is more valid than any other. Theres lots of things that when i was young, even through the ages of 15-20 (when i thought i knew it all) that i questioned so many things that my parents told me! I disagreed with them so many times! Argued with them just like any other 18 year old would and its not till now that im finally understanding "oh ok man they were right!" But yet at that age i completely and totally thought they were in the wrong! Why? Becuase i only understood what i knew and the evidence that i had before me. My parents and im sure that whenever you become a parent,you will from time to time do the same, wanted me to simply obey them rather than understand them. The difference though is that I do not believe I know it all. My parents have told me that same line, accusing me of thinking I "know it all" simply because they thought that same thought, I'm not that arrogant though. My area of expertise is not large, and I have much to learn about life in general, but one thing I can be extremely certain of is that religion is all nonsense. They operate on dogma, not evidence. All the refutations of god's existence have been present for decades if not a century or more. The currently religious people either are not aware of it (the regular population), they engage in wishful thinking, or they desperately rationalize away the blatant irrationality of their belief. So many times as human we're just like that typical 18 year old kid, but with only more knowledge, we disagree with so many things because we feel like we know it all when really all God is wanting is our obedience. Why does God abhor freedom so much? Is he really this vulnerable to human emotion? Every parent goes through the stage of where their child becomes an adult and becomes independent, and the parent must respect that their child has now become their equal and is able to go about life and do what they want. Why is God so prone to human emotion? It's no coincidence that god's image is entirely anthropomorphic, and that God apparently experiences human emotions like anger and sadness all the time. Could it be because, humans created god? I think so. Just like any loving parent, he really does love us and is wanting the best for us despite our unanswered questions we may have or resentment towards him because of a time that we felt he let us down. I think a loving parent would do more than just want their kids to obey. I would want my kids to understand first and foremost. Of course, you can't really do this when they're like 2 and stuff. Having "no limits" is not a positive thing for faith. In the aspect that if you only believe in man as your source of evidence. But our society is ran by our government. The government would have to enforce certain laws in order to have what your trying to propose. I am not trying to say who has evidence and who doesn't. I'm simply stating that they are just two different strong beliefs. And if that is your answer then how is that even though you have proof and evidence, people just like you can't seem to agree on the same thing. Scientist can't even agree on things and that's because they each have prof and evidence. I wasn't saying you made a mistake as a parents. I'm just giving you a scenario where your daughter or son chose on his own to do such a thing. I wasn't all saying you knew it all. Even an 18 year wouldn't say that. However, there are similarities as far as attitude. He doesn't abhor freedom. I think you would agree that giving too much freedom to any individual can more likely than none cause them to make more mistakes compared to receiving less. Especially when he knows our tendencies as human. I mean we all show natural human traits of stubbornness, selfishness, pride, mad motive or intentions. I think there's just so many things that we don't understand and rather than getting into the smallest detail and answering question after question bc I know we each have a lot, he rather just us love him back/want to know him bc of who he is and not what he can give us, whether it be knowledge or material things. 1
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In the aspect that if you only believe in man as your source of evidence. And that's all that there is, as far as we can tell. There isn't any evidence that a god exists, so when you say that you put your evidence and faith in god, to me it looks like you put your evidence and faith into some fictitious concept that you call god, that is obviously completely fabricated. So when you say I place my source of evidence in man, and you say your source of evidence is god, to me it looks like my source of evidence is superior because we know that man exists but we have no evidence that god exists. But our society is ran by our government. The government would have to enforce certain laws in order to have what your trying to propose. I am not saying that we should enforce laws or force people to act this way. They need to do it of their own accord. I was assuming, for the sake of the hypothetical, that if things were magically this way then we would be MUCH better off as a species. We should encourage science and (more importantly) rational/logical thought processes. I'm simply stating that they are just two different strong beliefs. And if that is your answer then how is that even though you have proof and evidence, people just like you can't seem to agree on the same thing. Scientist can't even agree on things and that's because they each have prof and evidence. Science isn't a singular entity, it's not one person. Rational discourse is how we make progress, by criticizing the ideas of others that we believe to be flawed or incorrect. When we receive new evidence, these theories or hypothesis are further revised to account for the new data. If most scientists disagree on a certain subject, it is likely because we have insufficient evidence in that subject or field. But let's take a field like biology where we have the theory of evolution, there are virtually zero scientists who object to this theory. I wasn't all saying you knew it all. Even an 18 year wouldn't say that. However, there are similarities as far as attitude. Such as? I mean we all show natural human traits of stubbornness, selfishness, pride, mad motive or intentions. As does god, he can be seen showing pride and mad motives, as well as other human emotions. I think there's just so many things that we don't understand and rather than getting into the smallest detail and answering question after question bc I know we each have a lot, he rather just us love him back/want to know him bc of who he is and not what he can give us, whether it be knowledge or material things. Seems like you're implying we don't ask questions though, and that we just love/follow god anyways. No one should blindly submit to authority in such a way. 1
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You cannot prove that there is not a god just like you'll say I can't prove that there is. You are new to this, aren't you? I don't have to disprove your position, it is your job to prove it. Otherwise I can claim any number of absurdities and you would be unable to disprove it. For example, prove that I cannot lift a mountain with my bare hands. Under your logic, we should believe that I can lift a mountain, simply because I claim I can lift a mountain. No, this is how it goes. If you claim god exists, the default position is to lack belief in your claim until you prove it. Now try to prove that god exists. You are mistaken if you believe I am operating on any type of faith. I don't have any religious faith in anything. I have justified belief based on evidence. There is so far no evidence for god's existence, so until there is sufficient evidence the most accurate position would be to lack belief in god. The thing is it'll likely never be proven until according to my faith, it's too late for you. Now you won't believe that therefore you'll continue to do what you've been doin as I'm sure you will. As far as you moving a mountain, literally, that be impossible. You look too skinny and weak to move 135 on bench...,sorry that was the athletic dominant side of me talking ;) At the end of the day you like most atheist, realist, non-believer whatever you are, will only go off of evidence. That's fine and all but I'll continue to go off of faith :) 1
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The thing is it'll likely never be proven until according to my faith, it's too late for you. You've already forfeited your position then. It has not been proven, and not only that but it lacks evidence entirely. What reason do I have to believe your evidence starved religion? The answer is none. I would be a fool to believe your religion in the complete absence of evidence, as would anyone else. As far as you moving a mountain, literally, that be impossible. You look too skinny and weak to move 135 on bench...,sorry that was the athletic dominant side of me talking ;) No dude, I could totally lift a mountain if I worked out. You simply lack faith. At the end of the day you like most atheist, realist, non-believer whatever you are, will only go off of evidence. That's fine and all but I'll continue to go off of faith :) And this is your biggest mistake. You believe that faith is superior or more useful than evidence, but this is simply not the case. Faith has no bearing on truth, so you could have tons of faith in something and still be dead wrong. But, if you have tons of evidence of something, the more evidence you have the less likely you are to be wrong about something. The scientific method, which uses evidence, is the most reliable method to the truth. Faith can't beat it here. This is why we use science to design safe buildings. We use science for designing engines, refrigerators, air conditioning, and going to the moon. None of these inventions required any amount of faith. Faith is no more a reliable method than random chance. what im trying to say is that if im wrong, if God doesn't exist, then what consequences will i face? ummmm basically nothing. If your wrong then, "it'll be too late for you". No dude, I could totally lift a mountain if I worked out. You simply lack faith. "IF" you worked out. To YOU its far more useful than faith, but like i said even when you do have all the claims and evidence you need in the world there is still a chance, a small chance yes, but still a chance that you could be wrong. You'll continue to go off evidence because it seems more logical to you. like how i embolden certain comments? pretty cute huh....one of your atheist friends taught me... 1
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what im trying to say is that if im wrong, if God doesn't exist, then what consequences will i face? ummmm basically nothing. If your wrong then, "it'll be too late for you". Ugh, yet another attempt at the excessively overused Pascals Wager? If God truly is benevolent, he will judge people on their merits and actions they did in life. Not primarily/solely on whether they believed in His existence or not. Let's do some examples. Let's say we have a religious person, he gets involved with some gangsters. Him and his crew rob a few places, fight with rival gangs frequently. One day, he kills a rival gang member. Some months later, he is trying to hook up with this girl and she resists him, and he loses his temper and rapes her. After a good amount of time with this lifestyle, he is finally convicted of one of his numerous crimes, let's say 2 counts of murder. He is sentenced for the rest of his life in prison. He becomes extremely religious and genuinely asks god for forgiveness from his immoral ways. He dies in prison. Does God send this guy to heaven or hell? I mean, he believes in god and asked for forgiveness. But he killed two people and maybe raped a girl or two causing all of these people great pain and suffering. By your logic, God would send him to heaven. In the next situation, we have someone who has seen no evidence of god and therefore lacks belief in Him. He is a generally good person, donating a bit to charity's here and there, helping friends and family in need. Never commits any crimes, other than minor traffic violations etc. He dies as a generally good person, lacking belief in God. Does God send him to heaven or hell? By your logic, God would send this person to hell, even though this hypothetical person has done little to cause anyone harm in the world, and has actually helped quite a few people in the world. And he didn't do it out of fear of god's wrath, but he did it because he genuinely cared about other people, and not only himself. Why does the murderer/rapist get to go to heaven simply because he believed in god and asked for forgiveness? Why does the atheist who was a generally good and kind person have to go to hell when he caused little harm to others in the world, and did a fair amount of good things to help other people? "IF" you worked out. I do work out, and I have lifted mount fuji in Japan. No one was there and I didn't feel like recording a video of it is all. But I promise I lifted it, trust me. You already said we don't need evidence and I totally agree, fuck that shit! but like i said even when you do have all the claims and evidence you need in the world there is still a chance, a small chance yes, Sir, there is also a chance I could win the lottery, albeit a 1 in 500 million chance. I'm not calculating the odds of god's existence here, but it's His chances of existence are low primarily because there is a massive absence of evidence. Just as there is a massive deficit of evidence for fairies, leprechauns, werewolves, vampires, etc. There is a "chance" that all of these things exist, but the chances are low enough to not even entertain the idea much. You'll continue to go off evidence because it seems more logical to you. I do not think the word logical, means what you think it means... like how i embolden certain comments? pretty cute huh....one of your atheist friends taught me... It's a good way to keep the conversation organized and in context. It encourages efficient and in context discussion, instead of one giant paragraph to each other. Bc one person believes in God and has made the decision to continually pursue a relationship with him. See it like this....there's two girls. You see both as very beautiful and want a relationship, therefore there's no difference in how you see one different from the other bc their both the same in your eyes, appearance wise. You also have already established your high standards and set the guidelines based off of who will show that they care about you more. Whoever shows that affection gets to meet your parents which is a privilege that very few have ever done! Now one has a very disturbing and bad past (God views all sin the same as I'm sure you know) but wants to fix things and make things right and actually have a serious relationship with you and believes that your everything she ever needs.....moreover, she believes in your dreams and what you plan to accomplish in life. The other girl however is a good girl but wants nothing to do with you nor believes in you bc she simply doesn't have faith in you that you'll do what you want to do in life based off what people have told her about you.....now which one would you let come to meet your momma this Christmas??? Now, I can see you and you clearly have access to a computer so I rather just see it!!! Come on muscle man!!! :D Scriptures to answer your story: Ephesians 2:8-9 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast. John 3:16 For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son that who so ever BELIEVES in him should not perish but have everlasting life. 1
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For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast. The thing is I don't care about being saved, I care about helping other people. And I do so without the idea that I will be rewarded for it later. This, I believe, is more noble than helping other people simply because you know God is watching and want to be eternally rewarded for your good deeds in heaven. For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son that who so ever BELIEVES in him should not perish but have everlasting life. So a believer in God could rape, kill, and steal as much as he/she pleases, and will still go to heaven simply for being a believer? We have real world examples of this. Just look at the prison system, the overwhelming majority are religious followers. Why do rapists and murderers who believe in god go to heaven, but non believers who do good things for other people go to hell? The non believer does not do good things because he hopes to be rewarded in the afterlife. See it like this....there's two girls. Jamador, this is another straw man argument. I will explain why it does not accurately represent the current situation. Just to add, it was somewhat confusing to understand. The girls are meant to represent the believer, and non believer. The protagonist (you) in this situation is meant to represent God. The non believer position is characterized as wanting nothing to do with God, doesn't believe in god, has no faith in god, and has heard bad things about God. The believer position is characterized as knowing that they have sinned in the past, and wanting to fix/make things right with god and ensure a serious relationship with God, believing God to be the answer to all their problems. First, the non believer does not "want nothing to do with god". In my case, it was an honest pursuit towards truth, based on evidence. This pursuit of evidence comes from the scientific method. The scientific method is the most accurate method towards truth, so I apply it to all aspects of life whenever practical and relevant, or at least I try to. I do not make a judgment solely based on what I have heard about someone, or in this case God. The "faith" method is no better at discerning truth than random chance. Religious faith is defined as "belief in something, without evidence". The problem is, the only way you can be reasonably certain of something being true or not is with evidence. So if you have no evidence, you could very possibly be wrong. The evidence is what allows us to judge the likeliness of being wrong. We have so much evidence for evolution, the chances of it being incorrect are incredibly minute, just as an example. As for who I would pick between the two girls, this question warrants no response seeing as how it is nothing more than a straw man, a vast mischaracterization of the situation at hand. If the "good girl who wants nothing to do with you" was characterized more accurately, it would be something like this: The other girl however is a good girl, but is neutral on what kind of relationship she wants to have with you. She doesn't know you, but she is open to having a relationship with you and if not she will go on her own way. She is just waiting for you to make the first move ;) Let me know if that recharacterization makes any sense. Being saved is a choice YOU must make, if you don't want to then you don't have to. ANYTHING that is offered can be rejected or received, you choose to reject. God won't force you to get saved, not will I. Using girls again, would you come up to a girl and say "you better start talking to me now and have a relationship with me!!".....??? Hah definitely not! You would want her to freely choose to start a relationship with you. A man who has raped and done all those things would go to heaven if he whole heartedly changed his lifestyle and made the continuous effort to serve God. You and I have both done some regrettable things that if we could go back and change them, we would! There's things that you've done that no one else knows about but you....does that mean you shouldn't go to heaven? Of course not! It's by God's love and mercy that he still wants to have a relationship and give you everlasting life. Really think about that!! Honestly it's even hard for any human to comprehend! I mean come on....say if your brother or sister or close friend....gf....whoever!!! What if one of these close individuals who you've known all your life and love dearly rejected you on a daily basis??? They didn't even talk to you!! They did the very things that hurt you almost everyday!!! Could you say "I still love you and want to talk to you like nothing ever happened."??? Heck no! The nicest person on earth couldn't!! Why, because we're human and our mental process is that of a human. We can only understand so much till that's we reach our capacity. You might say why get into all this love crap, and your answer is....just like the men in prison can be saved and go to hell so can you no matter how much you disprove God. I honestly thought the "two girls" example was very precise and had no misinterpretation or mischaracterization. I guess it's how you perceived it. I look at some of your examples and say ehhh that's wrong and so is that but I still see where your coming from. 1
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Being saved is a choice YOU must make, if you don't want to then you don't have to. The problem is, I do not honestly believe there is anything to be "saved" from. I have seen no evidence that would warrant me needing saving. There is no evidence for an afterlife, no evidence for god, so why should I believe that I need to be saved from an eternal afterlife? And you're forgetting one thing, I was raised religious and fully believed in god for my whole life up until last year. I have made the effort, and genuinely too. I look at some of your examples and say ehhh that's wrong and so is that but I still see where your coming from. Please specify then. A man who has raped and done... You are presupposing god's existence based on....no evidence. You don't have to prove god's existence at all, just show me that his existence is more likely than not. No one on this planet has been able to do that. To say that I am rejecting god, would imply I am acknowledging his existence and his "message" and defiantly rejecting it. This is not the case. I have no reason to believe he is real, just as I have no reason to believe in werewolves, vampires, unicorns, fairies, and goblins. You don't have any evidence making the Christian God more valid than something like Zeus or Apollo. None of the god's that have ever been posited to exist, have evidence. After knowing this, why do you choose to believe in the christian god, when all the other gods are equally valid? ill use the whole relationship scenario, if i haven't already. Its a relationship you choose you either want or don't want. Are you going to be completely miserable and depressed if you don't have a relationship with God? No. Its the fact that your better off being with God. Everything is easier. Are there going to be hard times? of course. It's just that this time there someone who you can go to. Just like with a girl that youve fallen in love. Ill assume that youve been in love before. Theres just a difference when your in love and when your with that person compared to when your not. Will you be ok if your not with that person? yea. You sound like a smart guy. I think i have found your problem with why you made the decision you made a year ago. and im curious to hear your response, but in my OPINIOIN i think youve over analyzed everything. you thought about it too much. you looked in to it and looked in to it too much to the point where you believed in everything that made sense compared to what the bible says. An interesting study was shown that (this relates to my opinion still) that dumb people or people that don't have good jobs or had a low education level rely heavily on themselves and their own reason. Some of it can be lack of knowledge, some of it can be stubbornness. However, same was said for the rich and smart and well of. People who had doctorettes degree/multiple degrees also relied heavily on their own reason. The reason for this however, was not because of lack of knowledge, but because of too much knowledge. It then made them turn out to have the same ending results as the first group of people, due to an of an overwhelming amount of self appraisail since they knew so much and had accomplished so much. Even the pharasee's in the bible were known to be very smart men and well educated in the bible, but they over thought certain things and criticized Jesus on the most simplest things. They would make the most smallest thing so technical! God's word and what he wants is so simple. All he wants is a relationship with you. He won't force it on you. He wants you to look towards him all the time rather than over analyzing things and going off of your reason. 1
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Are you going to be completely miserable and depressed if you don't have a relationship with God? No. Its the fact that your better off being with God. Everything is easier. WELL, you're one to toss the word fact around lightly. Are there going to be hard times? of course. It's just that this time there someone who you can go to. That doesn't really help when I genuinely do not believe God is real. I look at your belief in God the same way you look at a child with their imaginary friend. Barring any parental bias of "Oh he's so cute, it's just part of growing up!" of course. The parent can tell that the imaginary friend isn't real, similarly I can see that your belief in god is not backed up by evidence, which leads me to the utterly obvious conclusion that god likely does not exist, just as the child's imaginary friend likely does not exist. (I don't mean disrespect towards you, just the irrationality of your ideas from my perspective). Also, I don't need to have God to have someone to go to. That's what friends and family are for. An interesting study was shown that (this relates to my opinion still) that dumb people or people that don't have good jobs or had a low education level rely heavily on themselves and their own reason I would love to read this study then, could you source it? I was of the impression that the poor people who typically have a poor education are among the most religious. All he wants is a relationship with you. He won't force it on you. He hasn't made his presence known. Instead, he supposedly relies on gut feelings and faith. To believe in God based on those two alone would be irrational. He wants you to look towards him all the time rather than over analyzing things and going off of your reason. This is ridiculous though. Why does God protest independence so much? Why must he treat us like children? Your right. I got so use to starting my sentences off with those 4 words lol
Also, I don't need to have God to have someone to go to. That's what friends and family are for. Have they ever let you down? And let me google that source. It was a study that a professor gave us in our ethical behavior class. It has alwasy stuck with me. I was under the same impression as well. This is ridiculous though. Why does God protest independence so much? Why must he treat us like children? I see it as this, and this is just my personal opinion to your question...according to my belief i serve a God that has been around FOREVER. You could try and calculate his age so lets just say 1,000,000,000,000,000....just throwing a number out there so that we can try to comprehend what forever really is. Then, you have us humans....who can only live on this earth on average up to 75 years. 80 to 90 if we're lucky! Some over 100, but thats it. And unofortunately stats have proven that you actually dumb down as you get older lol. So you have a 1,000,000,000,000,000 God to a 75 year old human. Its no wonder he see's us as children. Of course we all hate to be looked at as children or a less intelligent being, but i think its crazy how we sometimes through our average 75 year old lifespan try to say that we know it all. Are we smart human beings? of course...but do we and could we know as much as an eternity type God? No way. Im sure that when you were a senior in high school, you looked at freshmen as beneath you and that's just because they were ONLY 4 YEARS YOUNGER THAN YOU! I'm sure as a senior you felt on top as you should have felt ha I know i did. Then when you got to college, you became that freshman and now you had seniors in college (21-24) year olds looking at you as just a kid. I know it may seem that im like just totally putting us as humans down, but im not. Im trying to get you to understand that theres a God that even though he's all powerful and has always been and holds this high title of the ALMIGHTY GOD, he still wants to have a relationship with you. Thats just crazy to me. Most wealthy people and famous people wouldnt care if they ever talked to me or you in their lifetime. I mean if Michael Jordan told me he wanted to hang out with me, I'd be ectatic!!! Like wow the greatest of all time wants to talk to me. He could call me a kid all he wanted to!!! lol In fact id be priveledge if he called me his child!! lol even though im not black haha....its just the fact that (haha i used that starting off sentence again) God wants to call you his own. He's above michael jordan or whatever your fav athlete or person you look up to is. I'm basically saying all this because i dont want you thinking that God is this person that just sees us as a kid and is too good or whatever, because hes doesn't. I hope you don't misinterpret what i was trying to get across. 1
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Have they ever let you down? Of course. You can't exactly replace family, but in regards to friends you can find new ones if they screw up really badly. And let me google that source. It was a study that a professor gave us in our ethical behavior class. It has alwasy stuck with me. I was under the same impression as well. Well I believe I've seen some statistics that support the idea that the poor are among the most religious, since they are desperately in need of money and food to live, and praying to a god seems to give them hope to go on, alas I am too lazy to look it up. I'd rather read your source anyways on this. So you have a 1,000,000,000,000,000 God to a 75 year old human. Its no wonder he see's us as children. But by saying this, you didn't realize that you just made god a victim to human stereotyping and behavior. As seniors, of course they view the freshman as somehow inferior in terms of the social structure at the high school. Humans have been determining what their "status" is in their society for thousands of years because it is a process of evolution. Animals do this too, animals like lions, especially gorillas and monkeys. Why is God a victim to the process of evolution now? Only a God fictitiously created by humans would fall victim to an obviously human instinct which originated due to evolution and the survival benefits it produced. Im trying to get you to understand that theres a God that even though he's all powerful and has always been and holds this high title of the ALMIGHTY GOD, he still wants to have a relationship with you. I cannot possibly conceive of a way for you to convince me that there is a god, because my thought process and beliefs depend upon evidence. There is no way I can convince you that your position is incorrect, because you do not operate on evidence, you operate on faith and I do not. Nevermind the fact that the scientific method and this pursuit of evidence is what has given us computers, the internet, cars, engines, nuclear reactors, landed a man on the moon, satellites, the agricultural revolution, etc. This method produces results, whereas religious faith does not. Religious faith is the blind pursuit of a conclusion, regardless of evidence to the contrary. The scientific method is the pursuit of truth, depending upon where the evidence leads us. why do we need proof? or a better question why do we need to believe? its not about Christianity in my book its about humanity. in desperation we pray for, we beg for help and we have hope. this is god whether as a holy omnipotent being or an explainable part of human nature why does it truly matter? 1
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Well first, you have yet to prove god's existence. You are automatically assuming his existence, based on nothing but "special feelings" inside of you. God is nothing more than an imaginary friend, he is whoever you perceive him to be. He is merely a reflection of your own morality. I am not saying this as absolutely true, but I am merely dismissing god the same way one would dismiss fairies as non existent. how can you prove something to someone who only wants evidence and proof. im pretty sure ive told you that just like you cant prove he doesn't exist, i can't 100% prove he does. Its a faith. Faith doesn't go off of prove or evidence. I can't force you, nor will i/nor will he, to believe in something that requires faith when you only go off of proof. 1
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im pretty sure ive told you that just like you cant prove he doesn't exist, i can't 100% prove he does. My inability to disprove your position adds no validity to your position. You cannot prove the non existence of leprechauns, and yet I'm pretty certain you do not believe in those. And yet by your logic, a believer in leprechauns would criticize you for your lack of faith in leprechauns existing. By your logic, the leprechaun believer does not need any evidence whatsoever, in order for his belief to be valid and justified. This is an absurd position. It can be dangerous and sometimes even foolish to believe in things that have no evidence. We don't take construction workers "word" that the building is safe, we have someone inspect it for safety and make sure it meets the guidelines and agreed upon requirements. Same thing with bridges, we don't just build them and let people start crossing them, they are inspected and tested first to ensure they are safe to be used. And yet, with conceivably the most important question of all, we abandon this need for evidence and choose "faith" when discussing belief in god. This is an extremely hypocritical world view. I mean, who needs that bull shit evidence, who cares if evidence and the scientific method is the main reason we have vehicles, engines, computers, air conditioners, airplanes, nuclear reactors, ships, etc. Fuck all that shit. All we need is faith! Your dispute is pretty much like this, I'll use an anology as far as cake to evolution or vice versa. It all started when there was just flour, baking powder, water, egg, sugar, butter. Over a long period time given a very small chance, the butter and sugar were whisked by gravitational forces that attracted smaller elements including baking powder, flour and egg. The chances of this happening was minimal, but there was a lot of time for this coincidence to happen. Eventually the mixed up elements were exposed to a furnace that literally cooked these ingredients at 180° Celsius for about 20 minutes. Now if you try to argue with me then I can give you mathematical equations and theories to prove this, and you should just assume that I am right as this theory was wrought from many experiments and by many people who are probably out of your intellectual depth....... Psalms 14:1 It says: "The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God..." Fool back in the biblical days was known to be someone who is morally corrupt. Basically someone favors in what society says bc there's more proof. And if that's your reason then ok, but think about this, "For although they knew God, they did not glorify him as God or give him thanks, but they became futile in their thoughts and their senseless hearts were darkened. (Romans 1:21 NET) ...I think this verse basically describes what your doing. That is, you know who God is or you have at least heard of him (gone to church or whatever) but you in your own mind made the decision to go off of your own logic (thoughts). 1
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This "analogy" that you did not come up with, since you copied and pasted it from a different website, is known as a straw man. When you take your opponents position, and vastly mischaracterize it so that it is easy to defeat and show how illogical your opponents position is. This is a dishonest debate tactic. One where the debate goes from honest intellectual discourse, to maliciously proving your opponent wrong through dishonest means. People who lack belief in god do not believe that the explanation you gave, is how cake is made. I know god, as in I know that people believe in him, and I used to be formerly catholic. As for the verse describing what I am doing, it is because the people who wrote the bible wanted people to believe in god/the bible. They want you to think that questioning god's existence is wrong and sinful, and the work of the devil. An honest pursuit towards truth will show you that it's not likely that the devil or god exist, and that it was most likely a system of control and a flawed attempt to understand the world back then. That is, you know who God is or you have at least heard of him (gone to church or whatever) but you in your own mind made the decision to go off of your own logic (thoughts). My personal beliefs are not simply switches that I can turn on and off, or change whenever I please. People's beliefs are better understood as "realizations", people do not choose their beliefs, they internally realize them. You internally realize that you believe in god, so even if you were to denounce God and claim to be an atheist, internally you would still believe in God. You rationalize the lack of evidence for god with "I don't need evidence for god, I only need faith", but you don't apply this mentality towards other aspects of life. As an example: If you did, you would rely on faith healing, and not doctors since their methods rely on evidence and experimentation and not on any amount of faith. Likewise, I lack belief in God, so even if I wanted to believe in god and said I believed in God, that would not make me genuinely believe in God. Never claimed it was mine. I said "I'll use an analogy". Trust me you've mischaracterized my belief as far as comparing it to the believe in leprechauns and what not. There has been atheist who becomes Christians and vice versa. It's not like you become a Christian and everything is perfect and you never question God and your thoughts are out of no where perfect in every way. It's a daily struggle to keep the faith. There's even scriptures that say how you will be made fun of and persecuted for being a Christian. You might say then why be a Christian????? The answer is the end results! Just like working out!!! Is working out always SUPER fun? Nope! Do you always feel like working out?? Nope! Are there days where you do the opposite of working and eat food your not suppose to??? Oh heck yeah!!! But if you keep to it and discipline yourself the way your suppose to then results are inevitable. Some of the people I most admire are Christians. Basically bc those are the people that live a lifestyle of discipline. Yea I'm sure they wish they could be doing something else, but they don't. They don't live a life that is self centered based off of what they want to do or make decisions solely on pure logic 1
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Trust me you've mischaracterized my belief as far as comparing it to the believe in leprechauns and what not. No I have not. Both are hypothesis that lack evidence. "Leprechauns exist", but there is no evidence for leprechauns. "God exists", but there is no evidence for God. It may look like a mischaracterization to you, since you hold belief in god close to you, that it might even come off as personally offensive for me to compare something "obviously not real" like leprechauns to your God. But to me, both your god and leprechauns are "obviously not real" since there is no evidence for either beings' existence. It was a fair comparison I believe, since both ideas lack evidence. Never claimed it was mine. I said "I'll use an analogy" Nor did you do a full disclosure. "I'll use an analogy" was a bit vague. Some of the people I most admire are Christians. Basically bc those are the people that live a lifestyle of discipline. Yea I'm sure they wish they could be doing something else, but they don't. They don't live a life that is self centered based off of what they want to do or make decisions solely on pure logic Are you implying that many non believers or non christians live a life that is self centered? This part was just a bit confusing, the way you worded it. Again, I think it's how you perceive it bc like I said some of the examples/comparisons you use are not identical according to my perspective. Just like some of the examples I've said are according to you a mischaracterization. Sorry, next time I'll cite my source ;) Umm basically. Technically I would say non believers are more self centered. A believer has made the decision to put himself or herself second and God first. While a non believer put himself first. Therefore, making them more self centered. 1
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Umm basically. Technically I would say non believers are more self centered. A believer has made the decision to put himself or herself second and God first. While a non believer put himself first. Therefore, making them more self centered. Both believers and non believers can act selfish at times. The believer may have made the decision to put God ahead of themselves, but that doesn't mean they will always act according to that belief. I have more than once witnessed religious people engaging in selfish conduct. Living in the religious south, I don't know any atheists other than my brother. Who I would like to add also similarly came to the same conclusion that religion is all fake, independent of me. He went from being religious, to being semi deist by being a proponent of intelligent design for a short while, and then after realizing its major flaws settled with agnostic atheism being the most rational position. While believers may say they put god first, in my experience they hardly ever act on this, with the primary motivation being "what benefits me, my family, and my friends the most". I'm a non believer, and I do not consider myself more self centered because of my non belief. What justification do you have for this accusation of non believers being more self centered? i agree, both could easily be self centered. i also agree they wont always put God first. God sees the heart and knows their full intentions. We're human we are bound to make mistakes. Even me! i can admit that i am self centered at times. However, its the decision to put God first rather than walking around going based solely off of me and what i want. Consequently, God gives us free will. Its the decision to either place yourself as #1 or God as #1 1
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However, its the decision to put God first rather than walking around going based solely off of me and what i want. Consequently, God gives us free will. Its the decision to either place yourself as #1 or God as #1 I place humanity's well being as number 1, or at least I try to. Although from my position, there isn't much I can currently do about it at the moment. I'd rather not place it in something almost certainly non existent. 1
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Had God ever let you down? When I believed in him, yes he certainly let me down. But knowing what I know now, its obvious why he "let me down". Speaking in practical terms, he doesn't exist. Has your reason or what you thought was the right decision at the time ever let you down? Of course it has. No one is perfect, we are all constantly learning. 1
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Good question. As humans there are so many unanswered question out there. There's even questions that Christians can't answer as I'm sure that there are questions that atheist or evolutionist can't answer as well. One concept that is hard to fully grasp is the thought of a God that knows no time. A God that wasn't created but just is and has always been. We as humans always try to link objects, people, things that are tangible and even things that aren't to its original predecessor, but with God that's not the case. You see if God is the creator of all things then he's also the creator of time. Therefore He is not limited by the time dimension He created, so he has no beginning in time. God is in essence eternity. Try and just comprehend ETERNITY.........................it is very hard to grasp what eternity is!!! I mean forever and ever with no end???Especially when we as humans are so use to things having an end, just like we're use to everything having a beginning. (Isaiah 57:15). In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2
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Yes, with the exception of God. This would of been easily avoided if you would of read that part. And again if you can't understand that then it makes sense and your actually proving my statement correct on how "humans have a limit in how much information they can obtain at one time" :) 1
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"Isaiah 11:12 "And he shall set up an ensign for the nations, and shall assemble the outcasts of Israel, and gather together the dispersed of Judah from the four corners of the earth." "Revelation 7:1 "And after these things I saw four angels standing on four corners of the earth Isaiah 40:22: It is He who sits above the >circle< of the earth, And its inhabitants are like grasshoppers, Who stretches out the heavens like a curtain And spreads them out like a tent to dwell in. So yes, according to bible Earth is flat, which is obvious bullshit (one of many in bible). There is a word in old bibles for ball like sphere it's "Dur" in Hebrew and it's used in bible too, so yes bible is bullshit. 1
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I'd strongly disagree with stupid people. Take for instance, Solomon, if you don't know about him then google him. If you don't believe there was ever such a man than it would be interesting to know that researchers have even found artifacts of his kingdom, as well as 1,000's of year old scrolls talking about him. 2
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