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God: The worst fictional character
1) Hey Adam and Eve. I am going to place this tree here and nudge you to it. Don't eat from it.
2) Hey Noah so I decided to kill everybody. Go built and impossible to build by yourself boat and go pick up animals.
3) Hey Jesus I just figured out that I need you to die in the cross like a criminal. See ya.
4) Hey Lucifer........I don't like you.....get out of heaven.
5) Hey Pharoah. I respect you, ehem just kidding, but I must plague you to death. I don't think you believe in me.
6) Hey Humans. I made hell so you would do good. Or you can go there. Either one is fine.
7) Hey Abraham come kill you son because I am so powerful.
8) I made everything. Yet I am not responsible for anything bad that may happen.
I don't think God is as good as he says he is.
Agree
Side Score: 29
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Disagree
Side Score: 15
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So I went to church last wednesday bruh and I decided to be a dick and asked what came before God? They said God always existed. I said oh so he waited and ramdomly made earth? They had no answer. Then I asked them another question. I said "Can God make a rock so heavy that he cannot lift it? Side: Agree
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1) The Bible never says where it is compared to Adam and Eve so we don't know how close or far away it was from them. Most skepticts assume it had no purpose when this in itself has no basis for the assumption. 2) The ark was built in a few hundred years, he told him excactly how to do it, it would just take a while. Same thing for getting all the animals. And also the part that everyone forgets, Noah told people for a dew hundred years what was going to happen, they just gave him the finger. 3)Its a lot more than that, do your own research. 4) Hey Lucifer........you tried to be me and well, you're not. Dude I made you my right hand man?! 5) Hey Pharoah. I respect you, ehem I told you ten times in varying degrees of plagues to let the Hebrews go. The first few weren't deadly. 6) Hell was made for Lucifer and his angles, not us. 7) Hey Abraham, trust me on this so the other times when you have to trust me (and your life depends on it) it seems easy. 8) No argument at all really from you. You have to explain how God has done evil. Side: Disagree
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Bullshit. 1) Dont put the tree there 2) No excuse. God made them that way and wanted to murder them. 3) So you have no answer. Okay. 4) God made him that way specifically to rebel. 5)Spawn all the slaves someone else. Problem solved. Instead he brought pestilence. 6) Yet we go there. 7) You want your own creation to sacrifice itself? What? 8) Made lucifer. Made everything. Including sin. Released it in Adam and Eve. Cursed humanity forever. Side: Agree
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1)As I said, you are assuming it has no purpose, and you have no basis for it. 2)No he didn't want to, it said he was grieved 3)No I do, you're just gonna call bs on the answer because your in non-thinking rage mode 4)how did he make him to rebel? 5)Like just ask? (Which he did first) 6)because he is just 7)no, he stopped him before he would do it 8)he didn't make sin Side: Agree
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1) Dont put the tree there. Simple as that. Tell me its purpose then aince you know. If not shut up. 2) He is all knowing right? By what you just said he isn't. He made everything that way knowing that flood would come. 3) Nope. Go ahead and explain it better. Unless you have no answer of course. 4) God made him with perfection and he became prideful. That is the fault of God for making him that way 5) He is almighty. No excuse. Just pop them up somewhere safe. 6) Bullshit answer. He is just. Wow. 7) He still called him for it and called for all male circumsicion. 8) Yes he did. He made it possible for man to do wrong. If God created right and wrong God made sin. If Gid made knowledge god made the knowledge of sin. He knows all. Meaning he knew sin before anything existed and if he knew it then it existed. Side: Agree
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1) I don't know the purpose. However im not making the irrational desicion that it had none. 2)No I didn't. He knew it would happen, he as temporarily grieved be had to do it, but being allknowing he had Noah. 3)God has a penalty for sin, he had to.take it.for us, that's all, not that hard.to understand.
I don't have time for this, we'll finish this later Side: Agree
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1) No answer? Cool. 2) That still means that he knew the flood would happen so it is illogical to put yourself in a state of grief or regret especially if you knew it would happen. 3) Penalty for sin he created? Okay. Look up some things to support your argument bruh. Side: Agree
1) I don't know the purpose. However im not making the irrational desicion that it had none. I agree, you don't need to give a reason for it being there, but you do have to give a reason why God didn't just forgive Adam for eating from the tree, an act God knew he would do before God even created Adam. Side: Agree
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So God isn't supposed to limit his creation? He created them knowing they would not follow the "limitation" of eating from the tree. He didn't have to limit them in a way he knew they would fail. He then didn't have to threaten them with not only their death, but the death of all of their children, and all of their children's children and so on. Then, after they failed to live up to the standard that God set knowing they would fail, he could have forgiven them for doing what he knew they would do before he even created them. Side: Agree
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I'm just gonna say up front that I believe death was always present in the bible, and when God speaks of death he means spiritual death. The tree was knowledge of good and evil. When they ate if the fruit they then had knowledge of evil. God limited them to protect them from this. That's why I mentioned the outside purpose we don't know. He could have created the tree with a purpose we don't know about and Adam got nosy and ruined everything. Side: Agree
I'm just gonna say up front that I believe death was always present in the bible, and when God speaks of death he means spiritual death. What does "spiritual death" mean? God limited them to protect them from this. Before God limited them, he knew they would disobey. He should have put up a fence. He could have created the tree with a purpose we don't know about and Adam got nosy and ruined everything. God knew Adam would get nosy before he even created Adam. Side: Disagree
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Spiritual death is speratiom from God. Also, the Bible does not specify where the tree was, how close or far it was from Adam and eve at the start, or what precautions God took. He could've, he could've not. The Bible also does not say the time period from creation to the Fall of man so they could've been their any length of time then found it. Side: Agree
Spiritual death is speratiom from God. What does that entail? Also, the Bible does not specify where the tree was, how close or far it was from Adam and eve at the start, or what precautions God took. He could've, he could've not. The Bible also does not say the time period from creation to the Fall of man so they could've been their any length of time then found it. Do you acknowledge that God new Adam would eat from the tree before he even created Adam? Side: Agree
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Separation from God entails not being able to communicate with him. I do ad knowledge that God knew about. However the assumption that God needed or should have changed his plan is false. God had a purpose for that tree. Them eating that tree would harm them so he put a limit on it. Why should God have to change his plans because of our stupidity in following a basic instruction. Side: Agree
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Separation from God entails not being able to communicate with him. I do ad knowledge that God knew about. However the assumption that God needed or should have changed his plan is false. God had a purpose for that tree. Them eating that tree would harm them so he put a limit on it. Why should God have to change his plans because of our stupidity in following a basic instruction? Side: Agree
Separation from God entails not being able to communicate with him. I still don't know what this means, is it a good thing or a bad thing. If it is bad, why? I need details before I can understand what you are talking about. Why should God have to change his plans because of our stupidity in following a basic instruction? Because God created us knowing we wouldn't follow a basic instruction, if he didn't want Adam to eat from the tree, he shouldn't have created Adam. Before creating Adam, God knew that he would tell Adam not to eat from the tree, and God also knew that Adam would not listen. Side: Agree
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The joy that true Christians have is from being in Gods will. We cannot be in his will if we have sin in our life and are seperated from God. I can't describe this feeling without you being a Christian. So God should stop the human race from existing because of one mans mistake? Your logic does not follow. God knew Adam would make a mistake and sin, thats why the whole Jesus thing comes into play. C Side: Agree
So God should stop the human race from existing because of one mans mistake? God should have created a first man that would have chosen to obey God's law. If God can create a man that will not follow his law, he can create a man who would choose to follow. If God can't create a man that would follow his law, he shouldn't make that law, or he shouldn't have created man, because he is setting man up to fail. If original sin only resulted in spiritual death, where did disease come from? Did God create bacteria, viruses, and the ability for humans to develop cancer or be born with defects? Side: Agree
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He did create a man that would follow his law, we are forgetting the person who caused the whole thing. Satan, which brings up the point why did he create him? My point is your arguements revolve around a God who shouldn't hold his creations accountable for their actions. Side: Agree
My point is your arguements revolve around a God who shouldn't hold his creations accountable for their actions. No, my argument is that your god shouldn't set limits that he absolutely knows there is no way that was he is going to create will follow. God knew that Satan would mislead Adam before he even created Satan. This is how an intelligent god would do it. Hmmm, I'm bored, lets create a person. I shall call him Adam, and he will be in my image. Crap, Adam will eat from the tree because he will be tempted by Satan. I want to keep Satan around for some reason, so I can't just remove him. I know, I'll create Fred, I've looked at ever decision that he will ever make, and he won't be temped by Satan. I'll create him so all of humanity isn't corrupted by original sin. Side: Agree
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But then Fred would be tempted by Satan. No, God knew everything Fred would ever do, and he knew that Fred would be able to withstand Satan's temptation. Let me clarify, that is where all your arguments will result in going. God set Adam up to fail, so everything bad that has resulted from Adam's original sin is on God. It was well within God's power to forgive Adam, destroy Satan before creating Adam, or just not creating Satan at all. God knew Satan would temp Adam before even creating Satan. In this system where God has complete control and knowledge, he is also responsible for everything that happens, because he is the original cause, and before he ever created anything he knew that the way things are now would be the result of his actions. Side: Agree
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No, God knew everything Fred would ever do, and he knew that Fred would be able to withstand Satan's temptation Not guaranteed. That's the thing though. I realize it matters God knew what would happen, but Adam made that choice HIMSELF, same way Lucifer made his choice to rebel. Why is God required to create a universe in which nothing goes wrong? He's not because that would take away your free will because you would have to serve him because their was no other option. Side: Agree
Why is God required to create a universe in which nothing goes wrong? He isn't, but if he had the power but didn't, that supports the position that the Christian god is the worst fictional character ever. He's not because that would take away your free will because you would have to serve him because their was no other option. Did Adam not have free will when he chose to rebel? God knowing what he would do didn't take away his free will. I'm suggesting that God only create being that wouldn't rebel, they would have just as much free will as Adam, but God would know that they would use their free will to serve God, rather than rebel. Side: Agree
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No, God shouldn't have created Satan because God knew everything that Satan would do. If it is impossible for God to create a human who could resist the temptation of Satan, and he knew that Satan would temp them, here are some options that make more sense: Don't create Satan. Destroy Satan before creating Adam. Create the magic tree where Adam can't get to it. Don't limit Adam in a way that he has a 100% chance of failure. After Adam fails, destroy Adam before he can reproduce and corrupt humanity. But rather than any of those, he let things play out exactly as they did, knowing that is how things would play out before even creating creation. He is responsible for all. Side: Agree
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Absolute Knowledge does not necessarily transfer responsibility. Absolute Power does not necessarily transfer responsibility. Absolute Power and Knowledge together do transfer responsibility for all results of said being's actions because before taking an action, said being would know the outcome of that action. Side: Agree
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1 Corinthians 4:7 says that everything that we have has been given to us, which includes our choices and our thoughts and our nature, which can only bear good fruit, if good, and can only bear bad fruit, if bad. Philosophically speaking, if God is all-powerful and all-knowing, then it follows that everything happens on this earth according to His purpose and divine will. Compatibilism is the dominant view on philosophy right now and so too is it in the reformed church; that means that free will is simply a perception. Side: Agree
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Incorrect. That section is when Paul was said to be Apollo by the Greeks. Then he said how we are not praise worthy because we have salvation. This salvation comes from accepting the salvation God offers to everyone. We are only receiving it so we are not praiseworthy. The ones who accept are the elect. God does not choose in the sense we do as in choosing over something else. God just chooses. Could it be that the elect are chosen by God as the elect simply because we accepted his gift of salvation? Side: Agree
You have still not rebutted how it says everything has been given to us by God, which is why Paul asks, "What do you have that you did not receive?" So tell me, is wisdom something that we have? So tell me, are thoughts something that we have? So tell me, what do we have that we did not receive? Side: Agree
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God gives us everything. You must remember that sin is a nature, which is why Jesus said that only bad trees bear bad fruit and only good trees bear good fruit. It is why Job was given hardships, which included the evil of man, under the will of the Lord. For even though we may intend something to be evil, God intends it for good; for God has created everything for its purpose, including the wicked for the day of trouble. Side: Agree
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Ephesians 2:10 KJV For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them. Good works are done through Christ, Christ was ordained to do what he did by God. Once again, as I said before, the theme is NOT we have no free will, but that we are not praise worthy but Christ is because we have done nothing but eecieve his gift which we had to have free will to do. Side: Agree
Use the ESV for future notice; the King James Version was from Latin. It reads as follows: "For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them." Let me ask you: if God has prepared beforehand one good work, then what would He have to have happen before this work could happen? For example, let us take one god work: a man mowing the law for his neighbor. Because God has prepared it beforehand, then it follows that this work would have fit the physical, emotional, economic, etc. requirements so that it could be accomplished. How did those get accomplished? How did those get accomplished. It follows that most people do not have free will if God has prepared beforehand even one good work, let alone all the good works in the world. Also, we do not have the free will to choose Christ. That is directly contradictory to the Bible. Please follow the Bible, not what you want the Bible to say. Side: Agree
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Ephesians 2:8-10 KJV For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them. God ordains the works that we should walk in them. No where do I see free will obstructed. Should is used meaning we having a choice. Ordaining means he approves of it, we still have a choice. Side: Agree
You are applying incorrectly. The "should" in this context of the Bible has always been that it will happen; it is the same as saying Luke 24: "And he said to them, 'O foolish ones, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken! Was it not necessary that the Christ should suffer these things and enter into his glory?' And beginning with Moses and all the Prophets, he interpreted to them in all the Scriptures the things concerning himself." Should cannot be relied upon, since it has many different connotations. Also, everything that God ordains/prepared beforehand does in fact happens. That is in the Bible also. That is the point of Him being omnipotent and omniscient. You cannot say that God is omnipotent and omniscient without saying that we do not have free will. And if you don't want to use that verse also, though it and 1 Corinthians both clearly state that we do not have free will, we can turn to Proverbs 20:24. There are countless verses stating that we do not have free will. Side: Agree
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How would that be sadistic? God gives us everything and we do not have free will. You must remember that sin is a nature, which is why Jesus said that only bad trees bear bad fruit and only good trees bear good fruit. It is why Job was given hardships, which included the evil of man, under the will of the Lord. For even though we may intend something to be evil, God intends it for good; for God has created everything for its purpose, including the wicked for the day of trouble. Please believe the Bible, not what you want it to say Side: Agree
In fact, I would actually say that you should find things in the Bible that would peel against your skin. If we are inherently evil and anti-God in nature, then it follows that many things in the Bible would be repulsive to us. We would find many of the things in the Bible to be wrong. However, as theologians say... this a good thing... a great thing (they call it being contradicted against)! Why? Because it proves that this God is real... it is not a figment of our imaginations or a construct that we came up with to appease ourselves. Side: Agree
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If you believe that God is omniscient, then He would know what was going to happen regardless of free will. So in order to say what it seems that you are alluding to, then you would have to deny that God is omniscient. God tests us not for Him to understand us, since He is omniscient. God tests us for a multitude of reasons: (1) to bring us closer to Him, (2) to help us understand things about ourselves, (3) to display His own characteristics, (4) etc. Remember, God works all things according to the counsel of His will, for the good of those who love Him. Side: Agree
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If we were not able to choose, there would be no testing. God is in complete control the entire time. We can go against what God wants us to do, but being omniscient he has a plan for when that happens. We still have free will and God is still in control. God WANTS us to have free will so it doesn't mean he isn't omnipotent. Side: Agree
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Who says that? What are tests for? Tests are for determining where we are in a certain subject. However, since God is omniscient, then it is not for Him. God's tests are for us to determine where we are in life. Where we are in life does not negate the fact that we could only have one option. Put it this way, Job was tested so that God could display His power in him and so that Job could learn. Job only had one option though. You argument is not valid. Side: Agree
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Their is only one topic where God says he predestines things and that is whether we are elect or not (Romans 8:29, Romans 8:30, Ephesians 1:5, Ephesians 1:11) and this is based upon Gods choosing which is very possibly based upon who he knew would accept his gift of salvation with his omniscience. All other places it says he ordains our choices which is fancy way of saying he blessed our choices and its cool with him. Side: Agree
Oh, there are many more verses. You just haven't seen them yet. ;) I can keep citing them. Look at Ephesians 1:11, Romans 8:28, Acts 4:28, 1 Thessalonians 3:3, Proverbs 20:24, etc. I can keep going all day. The Bible is filled with statements saying that God is sovereign over all things and that we do not have free will. Follow the Bible, not a pre-established philosophy of the Bible Side: Agree
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All of these verses talk about being with Gods will which supports both my view and yours, let me explain. My Logic God is omnipresent and omniscient. God ordained both his will and our actions at the beginning of time. God being omniscient and omnipresent saw our actions made out of free will and ordained our actions, that he approves of. The actions he did not approve of were our sins and we pay the price for those. Side: Agree
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It will happen, God is omniscient and omnipresent. But that doesn't mean something that god knows will happen, can't happen out of free will. Free will is decided between two or more choices. We can make those choices, but God knows which ones we will make and because he knows it will happen, it does. Side: Agree
Did you read Acts 4:28? It reads: "to do whatever your hand and your plan had predestined to take place." There was no free will; they did what God had predestined for them to do. That, then, corresponds with Ephesians 1:11, which states that God works all things according to the counsel of His will, which means that our thoughts and actions are apart of His will and can only be if God has preplanned them to be; this reverts top Romans 8:28, which states that all things work for the good of those who love God, which means that we do not have free will; there is no free will! Stop applying a philosophy that is not in the Bible and start following the Bible!!! Side: Agree
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Acts 28 is not predestination. It simply said determine which can me at any time. They prayed and chose to do what they believed God was telling them to do. I am following the whole Bible. Every verse you have shown, I have put in perspective of the rest of the Bible and Gods attributes. I am giving perspective of the whole, you are looking at individual pieces and claiming the contexts are the same when they are not. You are quoting verses on a wide range of topics disregarding context, topic, and reason it was written. Side: Agree
Acts 4:28 says that God predestined these things to happen!!! It is literally in the verse!!! You are not following the rest of the Bible! Each verse and argument that I have given to you has not been rebutted in any way... Let me ask you this, has God determined when we are to die? You're not following the Bible! Does God not work all things according to the counsel of His will? Side: Agree
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I have said it multiple times now... it is Acts 4:28... I already told you that the King James Version is from Latin, not Greek. Stop using it. http://biblehub.com/acts/4-28.htm Here are all the English translations of it with commentary. It even says in one of the commentaries this: "Verse 28. - To do for for to do, A.V.; foreordained to come to pass for determined before to be done, A.V. To do (for the sentiment, comp. Acts 2:23; Acts 3:18). They were gathered together for the purpose of executing, their own will, as they thought, but really to fulfil the purpose of God (see also Isaiah 10:5-15; Isaiah 37:26, 27). See here the comfort to the Church of looking upon God as the δεσπότης of the whole earth." Despotes means despot and master. Here is another quote from the page: "and thy counsel determined before to be done: God's decrees are from eternity; there is nothing comes to pass in time but what he has beforetime determined should be done, either by effecting it himself, or doing it by others, or suffering it to be done, as in the case here." Follow the Bible! Stop using the King James Version, which is from Latin. Look at this website and tell me with an honest heart that you believe that God did not predestine this, which would be wrong. Side: Agree
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We deceive ourselves. He establishes it multiple times in the Bible that we do not choose to love Him unless God has chosen us to love Him first and chosen for us to choose Him. He establishes it multiple times that He is all-powerful. However, why would anyone not want to be under this? If God is all-powerful, all-knowing, and all-good, then why would one want free will? He works all things for the good of those who love Him! This is true freedom and a true Gospel!! Side: Agree
Look to Luke 24:44-49 44 Then he said to them, “These are my words that I spoke to you while I was still with you, that everything written about me in the Law of Moses and the Prophets and the Psalms must be fulfilled.” 45 Then he opened their minds to understand the Scriptures, 46 and said to them, “Thus it is written, that the Christ should suffer and on the third day rise from the dead, 47 and that repentance and[c] forgiveness of sins should be proclaimed in his name to all nations, beginning from Jerusalem. 48 You are witnesses of these things. 49 And behold, I am sending the promise of my Father upon you. But stay in the city until you are clothed with power from on high.” These things were to happen definitively. Side: Agree
It is all over the Bible: Here is another "Should" verse... "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life." If anyone does believe, then they will be saved... there is no question... it is assured. Side: Agree
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Disease came from a mutation of some kind through evolution. Denying this has always been an apologetic copout for having to further explain or think about why God would allow such a thing. But it fits in with our discussion. Part of evolution is the species is the agent by which an evolution occurs. If God allows man to sin by making the tree, this is under the same kind of thing by allowing disease to occur by mutation. Side: Agree
By definition of God being maximally great, then no other being could be maximally great as well. Therefore, whatever God creates would necessarily have to be not maximally great or we would have a logical contradiction. Sin, in the Bible (Romans 3:23), is considered the falling short of the glory of God. Hence, anything that God creates is inherently evil, unless He applies Himself to it. This is why, in the Bible (Matthew 7:17; John 3:1-15; Ephesians 2:1-10), we must be "born again" before we may bear any fruit, since only a good tree can bear good fruit and only a bad tree can bear bad fruit. However, us being created in the image of God (Genesis 1:26-27) entails a different kind of retention of the law; for everything has its purpose in life (Proverbs 16:4). Following from that, we find that the image of God is not perfection in totality but the retention of a finite perfection of humanity over the world; we are given a different set of rules to abide by, since that is the role that we have been given. However, with this, one can determine that one is still not perfect in totality and still has the capacity to sin. The reason He did not forgive them instantly is because He desires salvation (Romans 9), which presupposes a need for it, which presupposes a need for sin, which presupposes an ability to sin, which presupposes God creating them with the ability to sin. Side: Agree
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1. Yes God created knowledge for everyone. So then he could only create knowledge from his understanding. So he doesnt know everything. 2. God created Lucifer because he was in charge of worship and God made him to be apart of His kingdom but Lucifer rebelled against with the other angels. God gave them free choice to choose what they wanted. So he does create evil for his purpose? He purposely makes vessels of destruction bound for hell? Sick. Side: Agree
So then he could only create knowledge from his understanding. So he doesnt know everything. He does know everything but we can't know everything because we have finite minds that can't comprehend God's big picture. We only see a small portion of God's big picture. So he does create evil for his purpose? He purposely makes vessels of destruction bound for hell? Sick. God didn't create evil at all. He let the people choose evil out of their own choice. If God stopped them from doing that then God would make God to be a puppet because then those people would have to have God make decisions for them instead of themselves. Side: Disagree
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He does know everything but we can't know everything because we have finite minds that can't comprehend God's big picture. We only see a small portion of God's big picture. Give me a legit answer. It is impossible in nature for him to be that way if he created knowledge. We are capable of understanding this. If he created it he had no knowledge before and therefore can never be omniscient. God didn't create evil at all. He let the people choose evil out of their own choice. If God stopped them from doing that then God would make God to be a puppet because then those people would have to have God make decisions for them instead of themselves. You must not read your bible like I do. Isaiah 45:7 I form the light and create darkness, I bring prosperity and create disaster; I, the LORD, do all these things. Clear cut right there. Here is another. Romans 9:22 21Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for common use? 22What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction? 23And He did so to make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory,… Wanna try again nigga? Side: Agree
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Cuz it's like dam. How da fk you gonna create me to worship you and you know dat when you created me dat i was gonna rebel against you? Why make me dis way? So you can set an example dat you are God and not to be fked with? I mean dat don't seen very nice. It's like "Fear me or go to hell? And go to hell because I made you that way." Like come on? Wtf nigga? Side: Agree
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