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God's tests are not for Him to determine where we are in faith or in life. His tests are for us to determine where we are in life and to realize humanities role in life, through the Gospel and Christ, along with God's characteristics: we are humbled, grown in faith, etc. through God's tests. Refer to Psalm 107
God's tests are not for Him to determine where we are in faith or in life. His tests are for us to determine where we are in life and to realize humanities role in life
That doesn't make sense if you believe that God has already decided if we will be part of the elect or the non-elect. It is not a test if He already knows the answer. It doesn't matter if we are the ones who gain from it, we can't do anything other than what He has already determined. You like your cult book are full of contradiction.
Did you even read what I wrote? I said the following: "God's tests are not for Him to determine where we are in faith or in life. His tests are for us to determine where we are in life and to realize humanities role in life, through the Gospel and Christ, along with God's characteristics: we are humbled, grown in faith, etc. through God's tests. Refer to Psalm 107"
You never read what I write, I returned the favor. I don't like your use of the word test. It is funny how God's tests look like they could happen just as easily without God. "God makes life difficult so that people will know how much they believe in God"
God tests Christians because we go through trials and tribulations every single day. He tests us by our faith and how we react to certain things. Being a Christian isn't an easy task. Its hard because you have people out there who insult, persecute, and dislike us Christians for what we believe. So we must put up with this because God was the first one to undergo this when He came down from earth in human flesh. So if Christ had tests as well on this earth then as Christians we are going to be test a lot more for our faith in Christ since we live in an anti-religious culture that is slowly growing.
He is talking about in other countries. Christians are put through a lot in other places. I am not sure if they actually belong in those places, but that's a different question.
Christians are suffering more then non-believers and the persecution is brutal in other countries.
Try to think historically, now they are just getting what they deserve.
When we are losing followers then that is fulfilling a prophecy because in the last days people will abandon the faith.
People aren't abandoning their faith. You guys are making it impossible to follow science and believe in God. If you want people to reject science in favor God, they will look and be stupid.
Try to think historically, now they are just getting what they deserve.
Considering since Christ was on this earth and receiving persecution we should expect it too. So I am not worried about persecution because when it comes I will stay strong.
People aren't abandoning their faith. You guys are making it impossible to follow science and believe in God. If you want people to reject science in favor God, they will look and be stupid.
Yes they are abandoning the faith because they don't follow it anymore. Actually science does support the Bible because a lot of things before scientists discovered the Bible actually already knew about it. I don't reject science. The only science I reject is evolution and other Christians as well.
Considering since Christ was on this earth and receiving persecution we should expect it too. So I am not worried about persecution because when it comes I will stay strong.
Explain the Salem witch trials. For example.
Yes they are abandoning the faith because they don't follow it anymore. Actually science does support the Bible because a lot of things before scientists discovered the Bible actually already knew about it. I don't reject science. The only science I reject is evolution and other Christians as well.
You guys fight tooth and nail to deny science when you can embrace it with your science backs Bible stuff, but you don't and you lose sheep, I mean followers.
I don't reject science. The only science I reject is evolution
2 Peter 3 -- This is now the second letter that I am writing to you, beloved. In both of them I am stirring up your sincere mind by way of reminder, 2 that you should remember the predictions of the holy prophets and the commandment of the Lord and Savior through your apostles, 3 knowing this first of all, that scoffers will come in the last days with scoffing, following their own sinful desires. 4 They will say, “Where is the promise of his coming? For ever since the fathers fell asleep, all things are continuing as they were from the beginning of creation.” 5 For they deliberately overlook this fact, that the heavens existed long ago, and the earth was formed out of water and through water by the word of God, 6 and that by means of these the world that then existed was deluged with water and perished. 7 But by the same word the heavens and earth that now exist are stored up for fire, being kept until the day of judgment and destruction of the ungodly.
Evolutionary atheists are actually, unknowingly, proving the Bible and that evolution is not true.
Because the 2 Peter 3 passage is a prophesy as to what will happen in the age of scoffers. From this passage we can determine many things: (1) Scoffers will come, (2) they will have subjective morality and desire to only follow their own desires, (3) they will ask where the second coming of Christ is, (4) they will believe in uniformitarianism, (5) they will deny creationism, (6) they will deny the great flood. That sounds pretty much like evolutionary atheists to me.
2 Peter 3 -- This is now the second letter that I am writing to you, beloved. In both of them I am stirring up your sincere mind by way of reminder, 2 that you should remember the predictions of the holy prophets and the commandment of the Lord and Savior through your apostles, 3 knowing this first of all, that scoffers will come in the last days with scoffing, following their own sinful desires. 4 They will say, “Where is the promise of his coming? For ever since the fathers fell asleep, all things are continuing as they were from the beginning of creation.” 5 For they deliberately overlook this fact, that the heavens existed long ago, and the earth was formed out of water and through water by the word of God, 6 and that by means of these the world that then existed was deluged with water and perished. 7 But by the same word the heavens and earth that now exist are stored up for fire, being kept until the day of judgment and destruction of the ungodly.
This is a prophesy written by one of the Apostles predicting that scoffers will come who will deny that there is a second coming of Christ and accept evolutionary premises. The mere fact that atheists accept evolution, and that evolution even is a scientific theory, supports the fact that it is not reality, since the Bible gives a clear warning saying in a prophesy to not accept it as fact and that it is wrong.
If it actually stated the premises of evolution that might be impressive, but this is just a guy saying that there will be people who make fun of Christian beliefs and say they are false. That prediction is true about every belief, there are always going to be people who disagree.
Could you explain why this prediction would not be true for any belief or belief system?
Alright, bear with me here. Could you explain how that passage talked about uniformitarianism? Also could you explain how uniformitarianism is related to evolution?
"They will say, 'Where is the promise of his coming? For ever since the fathers fell asleep, all things are continuing as they were from the beginning of creation.'" That is pretty much uniformitarianism, which is that every process that happens today is what has happened in the past and will happen in the future. It was originated as a geologic principle by Charles Lyell, who influenced Darwin. Uniformitarianism, then, became the basis for all modern scientific thought: Radiometric Dating, Plate Tectonics Theory, etc. However, if one were to deny uniformitarianism, then one could not prove anything about evolution.
“Where is the promise of his coming? For ever since the fathers fell asleep, all things are continuing as they were from the beginning of creation.”
What is meant by "For ever since the fathers fell asleep"? What is meant by "all things" in this context? And what does this have to do with the coming of Christ, why are these two sentences linked together?
The forefathers is referring to the founders of the world (ie Adam, Abel, etc). All things is a reference to everything: nature continues naturally. The link to Christ is a reference to atheistic notions of God not coming to raise the dead in His second coming.
“Where is the promise of his coming? For ever since the fathers fell asleep, all things are continuing as they were from the beginning of creation.”
Based on what you have told me, I read this as "Where is the second coming? Because ever since our forefathers died, nothing has changed from the way it has always been.".
It's like they are asking the question, then justifying their having asked the question by stating had Jesus returned something would have changed.
You are missing two fundamental pieces, though. The verse right after this refers to the creationism and the Great Flood. Also, scoffers by definition would be saying things to mock Christians. In full context, one can see that this is an atheist mocking creationism.
In full context, one can see that this is an atheist mocking creationism.
It is atheist mocking Christians and their beliefs, the Christian god creating Earth is a Christian belief, so Is the flood, so is Jesus's second coming, these seem to be examples of atheist mocking Christians beliefs as a whole.
This prophecy only seems to be saying that there will be people who don't believe you and will make fun of you, but that is true for every belief system.
However, it is especially a profound prophesy since it clearly states that the scoffers will believe in uniformitarianism and deny the flood and creationism. That was the point: they deny the flood and creationism, since everything has always happened as it always has happened (we can determine that the prophesy is about naturalistic peoples who believe in key points of science that did not come about until the 1800's)
since it clearly states that the scoffers will believe in uniformitarianism and deny the flood and creationism.
It doesn't mention uniformitarianism, you are reading into something that isn't there. He only predicted that they would use nothing having changed as a reason to question the second coming of Christ. If Christ had come, something would have changed, nothing changed, so Christ hasn't come.
You're still not applying the context. Why does Peter respond to them by saying that they are ignorant of the Great Flood and of Creationism? Context shows us that they are specifically mentioning uniformitarianism.
Also, this is not the only Bible verse that demonstrates a prophesy about atheistic evolution.
The passage you think relates to uniformitarianism is directly related to the second coming of Christ. The Great Flood and Creationism are just Christian beliefs that Peter predicted people wouldn't accept.
"all things are continuing as they were from the beginning of creation" is only talking about how if Jesus had returned something would have changed, there is no reason for you to add any additional meaning here.
You're still not applying context. The "For" in Peter's statement is a direct reference as to why the scoffers are saying what they are saying. Therefore, we have to apply this knowledge to understand what is being said int he quotation.
Peter says that the scoffers will say “Where is the promise of his coming? For ever since the fathers fell asleep, all things are continuing as they were from the beginning of creation.” because they are ignorant of the Great Flood and Creation.
Them asking when Jesus's second coming is going to happen is them establishing that Jesus is not really God; then they go on to answer the why, which is that "all things are continuing as they were from the beginning of creation", which is uniformitarianism.
Them asking when Jesus's second coming is going to happen is them establishing that Jesus is not really God;
Yes, this is the only position an atheist can have.
then they go on to answer the why, which is that "all things are continuing as they were from the beginning of creation"
Agreed, they are saying that if he was God then things would not be continuing as they were from the beginning of creation.
which is uniformitarianism.
If the result of not accepting your claim is uniformitiarianist, then this isn't a special prophecy as it is by definition only defining that there will be people who disbelieve and scoff, which isn't impressive.
They are only defining the only position an atheist can have (a world where gods don't interfere), all he did was predict people wouldn't believe. He also didn't describe uniformitiarianism, he only predicted people would point out that things haven't changed. There is a large gap between what is said, and what you read into it.
It's all good, we can disagree. Even if someone accurately predicted a scientific principal, that wouldn't disprove the principal. It would only demonstrate that that person had special knowledge, this could be of supernatural origin and worth looking into, it isn't a reason to say that which has been demonstrated isn't reality.
Just because Peter was smart enough to know that people will stop following his BS after a while of empty promises, which is easy to predict, doesn't mean that the last part will come true.
So, how can you complain about Atheists? We are more important than you. If it wasn't for us, this prophecy won't come true. God is only coming when there are enough Atheists. Kind of weird. God hides until everyone stops believing. He is so nice.
You know what, Peter wasn't such a bad guy. He knew deep down that evolution was true and revealed it in the Bible. I have new respect for Peter.
After Peter predicted Atheists would show up, he predicted that God would make everything great. So, you need Atheists more than Christians to bring about God's master plan. People like you are useless to what God wants.
You know what, Peter wasn't such a bad guy. He knew deep down that evolution was true and revealed it in the Bible. I have new respect for Peter.
Peter and Paul both stated that it would be incorrect to believe in evolution.
After Peter predicted Atheists would show up, he predicted that God would make everything great. So, you need Atheists more than Christians to bring about God's master plan. People like you are useless to what God wants.
Atheists are apart of God's master plan. However, the elect are too; in fact, atheists are here for the good of the elect.
Peter and Paul both stated that it would be incorrect to believe in evolution.
Ooh, I am now a fan of Paul, too. If as you claim they told us about evolution, it is because they discovered evolution was real and knew that people would turn to the truth once the fairy tale Bible wore off. So, I consider them evolutionists.
Atheists are apart of God's master plan. However, the elect are too; in fact, atheists are here for the good of the elect.
God's current master plan needs more Atheists, so the elect are the problem and should abandon their faith for the sake of the world.
So essentially Christianity implies that you need to keep faith despite obvious paradoxes, contradictions, etc. Sounds kind of Orwellian don't you think?
Mental illnesses do exist. I have been suicidal before but I sucked it up buttercup and got help. I do not judge those who choose suicide though because I would if life got bad enough.
I do not believe God tests us. I believe God allows us to choose a path we must take once we are given a human form. We choose the path based on learning things we need or desire in order to "grow". So, God isn't testing us...we are testing ourselves!
So we can know that we can get through it. For example when Abraham was going to sacrifice his son and he trusted God that he son would be resurrected. God knew exactly what Abraham would do. So when Abraham was about to kill his son God stopped him and said "Now I know that you trust me (or love me I dont exactly remember the word for it)". This wasn't for God's sake but for Abraham's because it strengthened his faith. If God didn't test you what would you truly know about him?
What kind of sick degenerate tells you to kill your kid so that He can seem like the good guy when He stops you?
It was a test of faith. His son was never going to be sacrificed. The point was to make Abraham strengthen his faith in his heart. This wasn't for God. It was for Abraham You know what forget it. You always have to be ignorant when it comes to religion. It is a testament of faith.
It will be a little harder for you to ban me now
That is not of my concern. You couldn't post anything on topic. All you do is insult Christianity and that is it. You ignore people points and continue to post belligerent, ignorant, duncical, megalomaniacal things without even taking anything into consideration.
It was a test of faith. His son was never going to be sacrificed. The point was to make Abraham strengthen his faith in his heart. This wasn't for God. It was for Abraham You know what forget it. You always have to be ignorant when it comes to religion. It is a testament of faith.
That's exactly what I said. I said He made Himself look like the good guy. Who the heck is He going to look good to? Abraham. Of course I was talking about Abraham in the exact way you are. You clearly have the ignorance here.
The point was to make Abraham strengthen his faith in his heart.
You worship a God that pretended that He thought it was a good idea for Abraham to kill his own child in order for Abraham to believe more strongly in Him.
That is not of my concern. You couldn't post anything on topic. All you do is insult Christianity and that is it. You ignore people points and continue to post belligerent, ignorant, duncical, megalomaniacal things without even taking anything into consideration.
You don't even understand what I post, how can you say it is all those things?
You keep saying that God did it to be a good guy. That is false.
Who the heck is He going to look good to? Abraham. Of course I was talking about Abraham in the exact way you are. You clearly have the ignorance here.
Oh really? You still fail to realize that God was already seen as good. God did this for Abraham. FOR ABRAHAM. NOT FOR GOD. Listen to what I am saying to you.
You worship a God that pretended that He thought it was a good idea for Abraham to kill his own child in order for Abraham to believe more strongly in Him.
You have a stong lack of biblical knowledge. God gives command to Abraham to sacrifice his son. Okay?
Abraham is a faithful man and knows for a fact God will resurect him anyways so he will remain faithful and fulfill God's command okay? Are you following along, Cartman?
Abraham lays his son down and as he is about to kill him God stops Abraham and tells him to stop and tells Abraham "I now know you trust me". To Abraham he is like "God believes in me? Yay!" This strengthens his faith. That was the whole point. This test was for Abraham. Not for God. If you cannot grasp thay sinple concept then just drop it.
You don't even understand what I post, how can you say it is all those things?
Lies. Again, Cartman, stop lying. You only insult. That is all you are good at. Just leave it. I can say these things because you never have an actual argument. Just an insult. Just leave it.
You keep saying that God did it to be a good guy. That is false.
You are wrong then. Clearly God benefits from having more loyal followers. I was saying that He looks like a good guy to Abraham, which is what you said.
Oh really? You still fail to realize that God was already seen as good. God did this for Abraham. FOR ABRAHAM. NOT FOR GOD. Listen to what I am saying to you.
Abraham was loyal enough to God to kill his own son, therefore it was not done for Abraham, it was done for God.
You have a stong lack of biblical knowledge. God gives command to Abraham to sacrifice his son. Okay?
Abraham is a faithful man and knows for a fact God will resurect him anyways so he will remain faithful and fulfill God's command okay? Are you following along, Cartman?
This has nothing to do with faith, and you are living a lie, hahahaha. If Abraham does something because he knows the outcome, then no faith was used.
Abraham lays his son down and as he is about to kill him God stops Abraham and tells him to stop and tells Abraham "I now know you trust me". To Abraham he is like "God believes in me? Yay!" This strengthens his faith. That was the whole point. This test was for Abraham. Not for God. If you cannot grasp thay sinple concept then just drop it.
God said to Abraham kill your son, so Abraham was not going to kill his son before that. God stops Abraham from killing his son, which he wouldn't have done in the first place. Net change, nothing except that Abraham has more faith. That's trickery if it is in the Koran, weird.
Lies. Again, Cartman, stop lying. You only insult. That is all you are good at. Just leave it. I can say these things because you never have an actual argument. Just an insult. Just leave it.
Just because you think I only insult doesn't mean I only insult. Just because I insult you doesn't mean I only insult. Just because you read every word I write doesn't mean you understood it.
Right now, you are saying the exact same thing about Abraham that I am. I am just pointing out how it can look very negative.
Clearly God benefits from having more loyal followers.
God was God before we existed. He gains nothing. This for Abraham. This is not for God. How many times must I tell you this?
I was saying that He looks like a good guy to Abraham, which is what you said.
No, I never claimed that at all. I only said God tested his faith.
Abraham was loyal enough to God to kill his own son, therefore it was not done for Abraham, it was done for God.
Terrible logic. The implication of the predicament should be obvious to you. God, deliberately commanded Abraham to slay his son in a sacrificial manner. Abraham, in strong faith in the accord of God, knew God won't break his promise, therefore he was able to accept the command given for God. As he was about to kill him God stopped him for the sake of Abraham and his son. He let Abraham know that he knows that Abraham trusts him and he confirmed it with Abraham, who wasn't expecting such an act of benevolence and confirmation. God gained nothing. Abraham grew closer to God. What did God gain? Nothing. He is outside of temporal space time so what is there to gain if he is Alpha and Omega?
This has nothing to do with faith, and you are living a lie, hahahaha. If Abraham does something because he knows the outcome, then no faith was used.
How ignorant. Did Abraham know that his son would be spared? Did he? NO. His faith grew stronger since God exceeded his expectation. Again, this is for Abraham. God gains nothing.
God said to Abraham kill your son, so Abraham was not going to kill his son before that.
How nice. You are finally using logic. Yes, Abraham had no reason to kill his son.
God stops Abraham from killing his son, which he wouldn't have done in the first place
That all depends. We don't know what would have happened if Abraham tried something else. God wanted to see if he was faithful and if he believed in the promise. Abraham did. So God confirmed Abraham so his faith may grow.
Net change, nothing except that Abraham has more faith.
Yep. Keep using logic. You are doing great.
That's trickery if it is in the Koran, weird.
The Koran? I am talking about the Holy Bible. Not the Koran. Also God made Abraham a promise so no trickery was performed. You just have nothing better to say.
Just because you think I only insult doesn't mean I only insult. Just because I insult you doesn't mean I only insult. Just because you read every word I write doesn't mean you understood it.
I understood just fine. You however did not. You constantly mock God. That is all you are good at. You lack the skill to debate properly. That is your problem.
Right now, you are saying the exact same thing about Abraham that I am.
You claimed: For God's benefit & Trickery.
I claimed: Not for God's benefit, but for Abraham's & No Trickery.
God was God before we existed. He gains nothing. This for Abraham. This is not for God. How many times must I tell you this?
How does Abraham benefit from having more faith? How was it possible for a guy who was going to kill his own child to have more faith anyway? No matter how much you try to deny it, God made Himself look better to one of His followers through trickery.
No, I never claimed that at all. I only said God tested his faith.
You said it helped increase Abraham's faith, which means made God look better. You said the same thing with different words.
Terrible logic.
Thank you for the warning ;) I was able to brace myself for it.
God, deliberately commanded Abraham to slay his son in a sacrificial manner.
An evil gesture.
He let Abraham know that he knows that Abraham trusts him and he confirmed it with Abraham
Interesting, God seems like a better guy to Abraham
who wasn't expecting such an act of benevolence and confirmation.
Stopping someone from killing someone that you told them to kill is benevolence. I don't think that word means what you think it means.
Abraham grew closer to God.
Interesting, God has a better follower. That's what we normal people call gain. Are you tired of being wrong yet?
Did Abraham know that his son would be spared? Did he? NO.
You told me he did, I guess you are ignorant for telling me that then.
That all depends. We don't know what would have happened if Abraham tried something else. God wanted to see if he was faithful and if he believed in the promise. Abraham did. So God confirmed Abraham so his faith may grow.
Who is the liar now? You just got through saying that Abraham would not have killed his son, then you aren't sure.
The Koran? I am talking about the Holy Bible. Not the Koran. Also God made Abraham a promise so no trickery was performed. You just have nothing better to say.
If this story was in the Koran, you would say it is an example of the evil displayed in the Koran. Apparently I have to spell it out for you.
Also God made Abraham a promise so no trickery was performed.
What promise? That his son would be resurrected? But, He didn't let the son get killed, so the son didn't die, so the son didn't get resurrected. So, God lied?
I understood just fine. You however did not. You constantly mock God. That is all you are good at. You lack the skill to debate properly. That is your problem.
I have noticed this is the tactic of all of my dumb opponents. What is next, are you going to tell me I am attacking you because I disagree with you, and not because you make no sense?
You claimed: For God's benefit & Trickery.
I claimed: Not for God's benefit, but for Abraham's & No Trickery.
Abraham does not benefit from more faith. Abraham had a great amount of faith and God told him to kill his son. Some benefits. How about Job, he had tons of faith, that didn't work out so well. But, after this trickery love for God saw a net increase. Who benefits? God, there is more love for Him.
We are not on the same page at all.
You have no idea how close we really are. We agree to every point except that you foolishly believe that no matter what God does, it is good stuff. We don't treat anything like that.
He can do more things for God. He can do things he may have been afraid to do. He can overcome more.
How was it possible for a guy who was going to kill his own child to have more faith anyway? No matter how much you try to deny it, God made Himself look better to one of His followers through trickery.
No it is not. No trickery occured. God only wanted Abraham to know if his son was placed above God. If he was faithful to God. If he believed in God's promise. That is it. This doesn't change God.
You said it helped increase Abraham's faith, which means made God look better. You said the same thing with different words.
No. It doesn't. God doesn't change. This was for Abraham's sake. I am not telling you again. You read the passage for yourself.
Thank you for the warning ;) I was able to brace myself for it
Then you must brace a lot when you think to yourself. That is sad.
An evil gesture
A divine command. "Evil" is an adjective and thus this is only your opinion. You have never proven this was an evil gesture.
Interesting, God seems like a better guy to Abraham
Oh okay. Show me a verse where it says it made God look better. Go ahead. I'll wait.
Stopping someone from killing someone that you told them to kill is benevolence. I don't think that word means what you think it means.
That is benevolence.
1) The son was spared.
2) Abraham grew in faith.
3) God gave Abraham the power to overcome.
Acts of benenvolence. Get with the program.
You told me he did, I guess you are ignorant for telling me that then.
I told you that Abraham knew his son would be spared? Show me where I said that. Otherwise, this is a lie.
Who is the liar now? You just got through saying that Abraham would not have killed his son, then you aren't sure
You gave a different situation and I answered to that situation.
If this story was in the Koran, you would say it is an example of the evil displayed in the Koran. Apparently I have to spell it out for you.
If the story was the exact same in the Koran I would be telling you the same thing I have been. I haven't read it so I can't say anything about it. Don't assume i would call it bad.
What promise? That his son would be resurrected? But, He didn't let the son get killed, so the son didn't die, so the son didn't get resurrected. So, God lied?
How did God lie if conditions were not met?
17 By faith Abraham, when he was tested, offered up Isaac, and he who had received the promises was in the act of offering up his only son, 18 of whom it was said, “Through Isaac shall your offspring be named.” 19 He considered that God was able even to raise him from the dead, ...
This is the verse. Abraham knew the promise and the only way it could be fufilled would be for it to have Isaac be resurrected. Abraham never doubted God would do so.
I have noticed this is the tactic of all of my dumb opponents. What is next, are you going to tell me I am attacking you because I disagree with you, and not because you make no sense?
If one man calls you mean then it may not be true.
If two men call you mean it may not be true.
If three men call you mean, well you may be mean.
Abraham does not benefit from more faith. Abraham had a great amount of faith and God told him to kill his son. Some benefits.
Genesis 17
1 Abram was ninety-nine years old when the Lord appeared to him again and said, “I am God All-Powerful. If you obey me and always do right, 2 I will keep my solemn promise to you and give you more descendants than can be counted.” 3 Abram bowed with his face to the ground, and God said:
4-5 I promise that you will be the father of many nations. That’s why I now change your name from Abram to Abraham.[a] 6 I will give you a lot of descendants, and in the future they will become great nations. Some of them will even be kings.
7 I will always keep the promise I have made to you and your descendants, because I am your God and their God. 8 I will give you and them the land in which you are now a foreigner. I will give the whole land of Canaan to your family forever, and I will be their God.
Abraham gained a lot. A lot.
How about Job, he had tons of faith, that didn't work out so well.
Job worked it out quite well actually.
He firstly states the accepted view of the way God governs the world (31:2-3).
He indicates that God knows him, and his life, and therefore this accepted view cannot be what's happening to him (31:4). For if ruin is the prescribed punishment for the wrong-doer, then why does God, who sees Job's life in all its details, allot ruin to him, for he is not a miscreant or a wrong-doer, and God knows it.
Job relates the morality and compassion that characterized his life (31:5, 16-22).
He gives the basic rationale of his existence (31:23). Here Satan's accusations, of which Job knew nothing, are clearly repudiated. Here Job makes it clear that his manner of life resulted from his knowledge of God, and the terror, or awe, that God's majesty and greatness induced. He lived the way he did because of who God was, not because of what God gave. Job stood in awe of God. Reverencing Him. Responding to his greatness, not twisting his arm for blessings. (Read Micah 6:8, and Matthew 5:48).
Job also describes his faith: He did not divide his confidence between God and his riches (31:24-25), nor did he divide his worship between God and God's creation (31:26-27), because his desire was to be faithful to God. This is the reason for his singularity of faith and worship (31:28). Compare Jeremiah 9:23-24.
Job does not see himself as sinless (31:33-34).
Try again, Cartman.
But, after this trickery love for God saw a net increase. Who benefits? God, there is more love for Him
The love for God benefits man not God. God does not grow or learn anything knew. So why would it affect him? That is for mankind to grow in. Love benefits man for man is fallen.
You have no idea how close we really are. We agree to every point except that you foolishly believe that no matter what God does, it is good stuff. We don't treat anything like that.
We are not close in an sense.
1) You think this made God look better. I said no.
2) You think this is trickery. I said no.
3) You think God lied. I said no.
4) You think God didn't keep his promise. I said no.
We are not on the same page. Don't claim that we are.
Wrong. God told him a lie the whole time. That's trickery where I am from, planet Earth, heard of it?
A divine command.
Evil in my book, since your divine being is evil.
Oh okay. Show me a verse where it says it made God look better. Go ahead. I'll wait.
So you now deny that Abraham liked God more.
That is benevolence.
HAHAHAHAHA
1) The son was spared.
No, he wasn't, God never intended for him to die.
2) Abraham grew in faith.
True.
3) God gave Abraham the power to overcome.
False, Abraham still blindly follows a crazy person.
Acts of benenvolence. Get with the program.
Telling someone to kill is benevolent. What if I tell you to kill yourself, am I benevolent still.
I told you that Abraham knew his son would be spared? Show me where I said that. Otherwise, this is a lie.
Didn't you say that Abraham knew that his son would be resurrected? So, Abraham knew that his son would be alive in some form. Didn't you say that?
If the story was the exact same in the Koran I would be telling you the same thing I have been. I haven't read it so I can't say anything about it. Don't assume i would call it bad.
A likely story.
How did God lie if conditions were not met?
If someone says "I will resurrect your son"" and doesn't resurrect your son, they lied, conditions or not.
If one man calls you mean then it may not be true.
If two men call you mean it may not be true.
If three men call you mean, well you may be mean.
Unless you are God, in which case, it doesn't matter what people think of you. Weird how that works.
Abraham gained a lot. A lot.
God bribed Abraham. Abraham didn't have any faith at all.
... Job does not see himself as sinless (31:33-34).
So, you totally ignore all of the pain and suffering that Job went through, and I missed something?
The love for God benefits man not God. God does not grow or learn anything knew. So why would it affect him? That is for mankind to grow in. Love benefits man for man is fallen.
And, this doesn't make sense.
We are not close in an sense.
Yeah, we are. You are just in denial.
1) You think this made God look better. I said no.
You say no to the way I say it, but we both agree that Abraham had more love for God. Thus, "looked" better.
2) You think this is trickery. I said no.
I still have faith in you to recognize that lying is trickery, even if you fail to see it in yourself.
3) You think God lied. I said no.
You know He lied, you just can't admit it to yourself. God told Abraham that He wanted Abraham to kill his son. You know that God didn't actually want that, therefore God kind of lied.
4) You think God didn't keep his promise. I said no.
This part is more of the details of the incident, so this is where we do start to disagree.
We are not on the same page. Don't claim that we are.
I am not trying to say we were on the same page. I think at this point we are in the same book, though.
If God already knew then he gains nothing. That is why your statement doesn't make sense.
Wrong. God told him a lie the whole time. That's trickery where I am from, planet Earth, heard of it?
God told a lie? What was the lie?
Oh and yes I have heard of planet Earth. I live on it.
Evil in my book, since your divine being is evil.
I see. Well I cannot change your opinion, Cartman. I also am not really a Christian. I just argue for it until I can make perfect sense of everything. So, I can understand why you think he is evil. Mostly because of the mass killings and brutalic punishments right?
So you now deny that Abraham liked God more.
No verse? Okay.
HAHAHAHAHA
I agree.
No, he wasn't, God never intended for him to die.
Absolutely. Now did Abraham know this? No.
False, Abraham still blindly follows a crazy person
Crazy deity if I may correct you. I respect your opinion.
Telling someone to kill is benevolent. What if I tell you to kill yourself, am I benevolent still.
Did Isaac die? No. Did God lie? No. God gave Abraham much more than he expected.
Didn't you say that Abraham knew that his son would be resurrected? So, Abraham knew that his son would be alive in some form. Didn't you say that?
Resurrected is not the same as spared. Resurrected implies that he died. Spared means he never died. He was spared.
If someone says "I will resurrect your son"" and doesn't resurrect your son, they lied, conditions or not.
Oh okay. Where did he say specifically "Abraham I will resurrect your son?
Unless you are God, in which case, it doesn't matter what people think of you. Weird how that works.
I was talking to you. I don't see what God had to do with that statement.
God bribed Abraham. Abraham didn't have any faith at all.
Where did God bribe Abraham? Show me the verse, please.
So, you totally ignore all of the pain and suffering that Job went through, and I missed something?
I don't know. Are you? The suffering is irrelevant. I gave you what Job was think after his suffering.
And, this doesn't make sense.
Sorry, I can't make that any more clearer.
Yeah, we are. You are just in denial.
Not even close.
You say no to the way I say it, but we both agree that Abraham had more love for God. Thus, "looked" better.
Show me the verse that supports you.
I still have faith in you to recognize that lying is trickery, even if you fail to see it in yourself.
He lied? Show me the verses he lied about.
You know He lied, you just can't admit it to yourself. God told Abraham that He wanted Abraham to kill his son. You know that God didn't actually want that, therefore God kind of lied
Show me the verse where God claimed he "wanted" Abraham to. Giving command is different. Show me the verse that supprots you.
This part is more of the details of the incident, so this is where we do start to disagree.
Yep. I agree with you here.
I am not trying to say we were on the same page. I think at this point we are in the same book, though.
If God already knew then he gains nothing. That is why your statement doesn't make sense.
No, saying Abraham doing more things for God, and saying God does not benefit don't make sense.
God told a lie? What was the lie?
Oh and yes I have heard of planet Earth. I live on it.
Lie: Abraham, I want you to kill your son.
I see. Well I cannot change your opinion, Cartman. I also am not really a Christian. I just argue for it until I can make perfect sense of everything. So, I can understand why you think he is evil. Mostly because of the mass killings and brutalic punishments right?
Mostly.
Absolutely. Now did Abraham know this? No.
So it is not lying if the target you are deceiving doesn't know? God said kill your son. End result no son died. If God does not say kill your son, end result no son died. Well, in both scenarios son does not die. How exactly does the son count as spared?
Crazy deity if I may correct you. I respect your opinion.
Oops, my bad.
Did Isaac die? No. Did God lie? No. God gave Abraham much more than he expected.
He should have been punished for attempted murder, some great being.
Resurrected is not the same as spared. Resurrected implies that he died. Spared means he never died. He was spared.
Either way end up alive, right?
Oh okay. Where did he say specifically "Abraham I will resurrect your son?
I am not stupid enough to read the Bible. I just go by what you tell me is in it.
I was talking to you. I don't see what God had to do with that statement.
Double standards are double standards. If thousands of people tell you that the God of the Bible is mean, maybe they are right.
Where did God bribe Abraham? Show me the verse, please.
Giving people stuff is bribery. You said that Abraham got tons of stuff, including children, therefore bribed. You provided the information.
I don't know. Are you? The suffering is irrelevant. I gave you what Job was think after his suffering.
Job was crazy, and that should affect me why?
Sorry, I can't make that any more clearer.
I know, because it doesn't make sense.
Not even close.
Aww, you are foolish enough to believe that we aren't even close to being close. Silly rabbit.
Show me the verse that supports you.
You admit that Abraham had more faith, I am working with that premise.
He lied? Show me the verses he lied about.
First admit that you believe that lying is trickery.
No, saying Abraham doing more things for God, and saying God does not benefit don't make sense.
God already knows what he will choose and do so how does he gain what he already knew of?
Lie: Abraham, I want you to kill your son.
How was that a lie if it was a test?
So it is not lying if the target you are deceiving doesn't know? God said kill your son. End result no son died. If God does not say kill your son, end result no son died. Well, in both scenarios son does not die. How exactly does the son count as spared?
The son didnt die. He was spared. What if God had him slayed then what? That is why he was spared.
Also show me the verse that says he "wants" him slayed.
He should have been punished for attempted murder, some great being.
Your going to punish a God, who cannot be bound by human law? That makes no sense.
I am not stupid enough to read the Bible. I just go by what you tell me is in it.
No evidence? Okay.
Double standards are double standards. If thousands of people tell you that the God of the Bible is mean, maybe they are right.
Okay.
Giving people stuff is bribery.
Britannica definition of bribery: bribery, the act of promising, giving, receiving, or agreeing to receive money or some other item of value with the corrupt aim of influencing a public official in the discharge of his official duties.
That doesnt fit the story.
Also again, show me proof of your claims.
You admit that Abraham had more faith, I am working with that premise.
No you are not.
Show me the proof that you are correct otherwise I am done arguing with you.
First admit that you believe that lying is trickery
You made the positive claim. Show me your evidence. Otherwise you are just talking rubbish.
God already knows what he will choose and do so how does he gain what he already knew of?
Just because He knows that He will benefit in the future means that He doesn't benefit because He knew about it? It still required His actions in order to get what He knew would happen.
How was that a lie if it was a test?
God did not want Abraham to actually kill his son. So, the lie is the want part.
The son didnt die. He was spared. What if God had him slayed then what? That is why he was spared.
Also show me the verse that says he "wants" him slayed.
Exactly, nobody wanted Isaac dead. So, since Isaac was never in danger of dying because nobody wanted him dead, he wasn't actually spared.
Your going to punish a God, who cannot be bound by human law? That makes no sense.
Abraham was the attempted murderer. Sorry for the confusion. Abraham attempted to kill his own son and got tons of prizes.
Britannica definition of bribery: bribery, the act of promising, giving, receiving, or agreeing to receive money or some other item of value with the corrupt aim of influencing a public official in the discharge of his official duties.
That doesnt fit the story.
Also again, show me proof of your claims.
That's not fair. So, it is only not bribery because Abraham wasn't a public official. God didn't bribe, He did whatever is equivalent to bribing someone who is not a public official. Same difference.
No you are not.
Show me the proof that you are correct otherwise I am done arguing with you.
I equate more faith to liking God more. I equate liking God more to thinking He "looks" better. Is that really a huge jump in belief?
You made the positive claim. Show me your evidence. Otherwise you are just talking rubbish.
How do I know that if I prove it is lying that you will agree that it is also trickery? Let's say it isn't lying. In general do you believe that lying is trickery?
This wasn't for God's sake but for Abraham's because it strengthened his faith.
If it is to strengthen faith, it is to make Him seem like a better guy, and He obviously isn't because He has to use tricks, so you should stop worshiping Him..
If it is to see that Abraham actually has faith, than He is not all knowing and you should stop worshiping Him.
So, in conclusion, a God that tells people to kill their own child should not be worshiped. Which you would 100% agree with if this was a story from the Koran.
God does not use tricks to make him or himself look like a better person. He tests us to ACTUALLY make use better people/ more Christlike. In Abraham's example, we are supposed to trust God in whatever he says. God gave Abraham an extreme example of trusting God (sacrificing his son) so that other times when God needed Abraham to trust him, he would. God told Abraham he would have to sacrifice his son, but he also stopped him. That was all God was doing, showing Abraham how to trust God: wholly.
Abraham Oh thank you god my faith holds true to you!
No. Abraham was convinced God would resurect his son. He had an enourmous amount of faith in God.
Why didn't god just let Abraham sacrifice his son and then resurrect him? Which was how god was suppose to gain Abraham's trust anyway?
If he killed his son and God resurrected him his faith would remain the same for his expectations would be met and not exceeded. Also if he killed his son it would be a sign of God's power not trust. So God stopped him and let Abraham keep his son, which Abraham was not expecting, and this strengthened his faith, especially when God told him that he knows that Abraham is a strong believer. It was above Abrahams expectations and thus srengthened his faith.
His son dies then comes back to life. BOOM instant faith
He was only tricking him by saying he would do this if Abraham did that, but he didn't even allow it to happen.
Not at all. It would be a trick if God let Abraham kill his son and never revived him. However, this did not occur. God let Abraham keep his son intact and confirmed his faith for him making him believe with a stronger heart.
And I think that since God knows everything and knows what's going to happen.
When he created. He constructed the environment and the way peoples brains works so that eventually these test would come to them anyway. But then again he would know those who would follow him and those who wouldn't. So testing us would be irrelevant
