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God loves you.
God wants you to be with Him in heaven forever, so He took on a body as the Son of God and paid for your sins with His own blood so you don't have to pay with your life in Hell. You will be justfied for eternal life if you agree with God as to His right to punish sin after He took the punishment on Himself and death could not hold Him in the ground; if you will repent of your sin and believe Jesus is risen from the dead and is God and receive Him personally as your Savior, God will give you eternal life...Jesus wil live in you by His Holy Spirit makign you a child of God.
Whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. God loves you and does not want you to be lost forever; He loves you so much He will let you be lost forever if that is what you want to be...even though you broke His heart so much that He died for you.
This debate is an invitation for people to explain why they believe God does not love them, and a challenge for me to convince them that He does indeed love them. If you are unwilling to explain why you believe God does not love you or why you believe He did not die for you to save you from Hell, please watch and read and avoid personal attacks. For the most part, those taking the opposing side seem to be focusing on anything other than supporting the idea that God does not love them and He did not die to save them from Hell. I'm trying to stay on topic here, I'm sorry if anybody feels abrased by the text....but it is Biblical, the Bible being God's loveletter to mankind. God loves you so much that He died in your place to save you from Hell. Please engage in the debate if you do not believe the supporting position and you wish to oppose it.
You explained it and you will not accept the fact that God loves you so there's really nothing else for you to say and there is nothing I can say to change your mind if you won't repent and believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and be saved from Hell.
I banned you because it will be a waste of time to continue arguing with you, and others who may listen to God's loving voice calling them to be saved from Hell may be distracted by your diatribes against God. Thank you for your participation.
Well I love you and you don't believe I love you, and all you do is insult me and insult God.....I'm sorry but I can't help you. You have stated your reasons for rejecting God's love enough. None of your reasons are good for anything except sealing your own separation away from God in your pride and rebellion forever. I hope you change your mind but I have tried to tell you more times in more ways than it was worth I guess, since you are refusing to listen and will not come into agreement with God as to His right to rule over you. I'm sorry. You are banned from this debate.
Ok, I can't get you to see that God loves you. You believe God does not love you. Ok, Why should I argue with you? I told you the truth, you don't want to believe it, there's really nothing more you need to say so banning you helps to relieve you of your burden in which you feel you have to keep saying you don't believe God loves you. You said it already, you feel God does not love you.
I banned you for trying to change the subject into whining about me, criticizing me, refusing to spell God's name properly which is disrupting as it is offensive. So you are banned and probably will be banned from any of my discussions because of your attitude.
can you copy and paste the thing you are accusing me of? As I recall, I said "if". Please correct me "if" I am wrong, and "if" you are not interested in debating the topic and explaining why you believe God does not love you, why don't you take your personal attack calling me a hypocrite somewhere else? What are you trying to do here? Are you trying to prove that you are incapable of debating this topic? If that is your motive, I think you are doing a good job.
The debate is valid, I have offered validations of the fact that God loves you and I invite you to explain why you believe God does not love you. If this is too much of a challenge to be considered acceptable for this site, I would have to say it's a small-minded site, with all due respect.
You referred to the community as small minded because you didn't understand how the response to you was on topic. Calling you hypocritical as a result is hardly a personal attack.
Additionally, you already know I am interested in debating the topic, as I have been debating this topic with you all over this thread. In leiu of that, your last bit is itself a personal attack ("Are you trying to prove that you are incapable of debating this topic? If that is your motive, I think you are doing a good job."), which further demonstrates the hypocrisy I was pointing out.
You need to quit lying about the things I said and start believing God loves you even though you are bearing false witness against your neighbor. If God did not love you, He would end your time now. The fact that God allows you to sit there falsely accusing me rather then ending your time and letting you pay for yourself is proof that God loves you. I guess you think that as long as you can argue that God does not love you, you are good. Even though you are dying, you think you are good....don't you?
Can you please cite any time I have lied about what you have said?
And no, my existence is not evidence of God's love. You are claiming intimate knowledge of God's motivations. For all we know, we could be an experiment, or an amusement.
And I think I'm "good" because I firmly believe that if a deity did exist, they would not be so petty and human that they would send people to be tortured simply for refusing to worship them. Such a deity would be far too vain and "human", to the point where I find the concept essentially unbelievably (in the literal sense).
You are claiming ignorance of God's motivations. How hard is it to understand that He created all things for His own pleasure? If you want to be ignorant of the fact that God loves you, He loves you more than enough to allow you to keep your ignorance.
if you are trying to slander me and not staying on topic in the debate, you get banned and you don't get the last word in the matter, as long as God allows me to have the last word. Sorry. God still loves you and you can say He does not. I love you and you can say I do not. I'm sorry to say that is seems you don't believe it. I'm sorry you were unable to debate here.
you are lying and you know it. That is why you will not copy and paste my words in which you cannot substantiate your lies. You sure seem good at copy and pasting anything else I said...why not copy and paste where I said what your lies imply I said. Quit lying please. Admit that you cannot show where I said what you are saying I said. All you are doing is lying about what I said. I know what I said, and anybody here can go back and read it and I feel no need to repeat it, and you are too chicken to copy and paste it because you know you will have to eat your words.
No more of this topic. Stick to the debate or I'm done with you. You are trying to prove God does not love you I guess, and by the way you love to act I can see why you believe it's not possible that God loves you. You need to quit trying to hide yourself away from God and accept His love. You need to repent of your sin and believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and be saved before your death is finalized and you have no way out. Jesus is your way out, He is God's proof of His love for you. Why do you want to believe God does not love you? I love you even though you are lying against me (that is unless you have decided you are sorry for lying against me and have stopped it) and God loves you or He would not allow your lies in sight of the living any longer. He won't put up with it forever except by confining sinners in Hell. That is the last thing He wants to do or He would have done it long ago. God loves you and so do I. I hope you will believe and receive Jesus as your Savior and quit rejecting His love.
Look at the second comment in this thread, it starts out with the direct quote from you in question. Clearly, I am not lying.
I do enjoy how you further employed personal attacks in this post, however.
Additionally, I have been sticking with the post on throughout this debate. Have you not noticed that I am one of the only people debating this topic with you? Even though you do not address any argument I provide?
clearly you are lying because you cannot copy and paste the words you accuse me of typing, because I never did and you are lying and for that reason I am banning you.
Wow well, the purport of your comments could not be made clearer. Despite your profession of this being a debate you have neglected to show an ounce of interest in debating any counter-views presented to you. Someone asks you legitimate questions to prompt you to critical engagement and you instead repeat your initial statements over and over without addressing his points. As he attempts to explain this to you not only do you falsely accuse him of lying but he is subsequently banned. You must be able to see how devaluing and discourteous that is to your opponent. I'm sure you could have had a far more pleasant and fruitful discussion if you had simply been open to what he had to say. You spoke of love, but there is nothing loving about attacking someone in the way you have done. A real shame.
He lied and I was unable to persuade him to admit it so he got banned. If you continue insisting his accusation was valid and he was not lying, I'm sorry I'll have to ban you too. I really don't want to ban anybody. I'm trying to be fair with everybody, appreciating all arguments as long as they refrain from personal attacks, slanders, and expletives. You are supporting a slander, and adding to those slanders with insults. I am addressing all point those opposing the debate premise as well as I can. I am taking away points from people on both sides of the debate in fairness. Those who focus on the topic will not be demoted or banned, no matter how or why they disagree with me as long as they refrain from personal attacks and expletives. The only shame if you push me to ban you will be on you. Please halt your slanders and stay on topic in the debate. I do not want to ban you
You are being unfair with me in your accusations and I'm not going to continue arguing with you about it. Research it yourself if you want to see that you are wrong. You don't have to say sorry to me, just stop with the insults and slanders and stop supporting those who forced me to ban them because of that behavior.
He copy and pasted your argument. You make no sense when you are copy pasted and claim that he didn't even do that. You need to ban yourself ... according to your rules.
Go ahead, ignore what words mean. Ignore what the Bible says a Christian is, and believe the dictionary definition instead of the Book of Christ, The Bible........ignore the fact that religion is not reality and knowing God is living in reality. Then go ahead and repeat the exact same thing over and over and over as you are doing.
Why do you always have to act like an idiot? The guy was taking like four words out of a sentence and implying that those four words were a separate sentence saying things I did not say. The sentence I used those words in had a completely different meaning, obviously, than what that liar was implying. You might notice that the liar never put his accusation next to my complete sentence when he actually copy and pasted the whole sentence I wrote. That is because his accusation was a lie, and you are an idiot for going along with the guy. Why in the world I thought you had power of reason with common sense to see right and wrong, I don't know. Why I ban you quickly, and even preemptively, I know. You're a pest. God loves you, and I really do hope you get saved and know God's love through Jesus Christ, but you don't care what God did for you in Jesus Christ so I'm not going to let it bother me too much that you are antagonistic. Usually I see your name and icon and just pass it by without reading, and the more I see you make posts like this idiocy supporting a liar, the more I am inclined to not look at anything you type...you and five or ten others are in that club of people who convince me more and more that it is not wise to cast pearls before swine, and it's better to just pass the pigs by and try to avoid breathing their stench.
He made false allegations and NEVER copy and pasted my words because the things he says I said do not exist to copy and paste. Your mindless support of this sidetrack from the debate has earned you a ban. Thank you.
He lied and I was unable to persuade him to admit it so he got banned. If you continue insisting his accusation was valid and he was not lying, I'm sorry I'll have to ban you too.
He has not lied. Once. This is evidenced by his ability to directly quote your posts (e.g. “small-minded site”). As for my ban, that is fine; I have already given my permission for this action.
I really don't want to ban anybody. I'm trying to be fair with everybody, appreciating all arguments as long as they refrain from personal attacks, slanders, and expletives.
As they have done. Every single person.
You are supporting a slander, and adding to those slanders with insults. I am addressing all point those opposing the debate premise as well as I can. I am taking away points from people on both sides of the debate in fairness.
Why must you be subtracting points from anyone though? Especially when they are either asking questions or responding to the debate premise as presented.
Those who focus on the topic will not be demoted or banned, no matter how or why they disagree with me as long as they refrain from personal attacks and expletives.
Everyone focused on the topic. What everyone did not do is agree with your stance on the topic and this is evidently what warranted demotion or banning in your eyes. As I have said previously, there is nought wrong in wishing to share your views with others but you must conversely respect the views of others. Part of that is actually paying attention to the content of their arguments and tailoring your responses accordingly. Failure to do this does not encourage worthwhile discussion on your opponent's part.
The only shame if you push me to ban you will be on you. Please halt your slanders and stay on topic in the debate. I do not want to ban you. You are being unfair with me in your accusations and I'm not going to continue arguing with you about it. Research it yourself if you want to see that you are wrong. You don't have to say sorry to me, just stop with the insults and slanders and stop supporting those who forced me to ban them because of that behavior.
You mean calling unfairness as I see it? In line with your questioning please point to where I have digressed and moreover please quote any insults and slander I have directed toward yourself….otherwise I see no warrant for an apology on my part.
You are supporting lies. Nobody has copy and pasted the words that the liar says were mine because they do not exist. You can take one word here and one word there and put them together and claim they are equal to a sentence which was never used or constructed by me and be a liar too if you want to. I'm getting awful tired of you.
You are supporting lies. Nobody has copy and pasted the words that the liar says were mine because they do not exist. You can take one word here and one word there and put them together and claim they are equal to a sentence which was never used or constructed by me and be a liar too if you want to.
"The debate is valid, I have offered validations of the fact that God loves you and I invite you to explain why you believe God does not love you. If this is too much of a challenge to be considered acceptable for this site, I would have to say it's a small-minded site, with all due respect."
Generic Name already did this when you asked and now I am doing the same. See? 'Tis no lie; then again it seems you struggle to recognise your own words when they are quoted to you.
listen you witchy woman who claims to be a Christian, you underlined one phrase and imply it is the entire meaning of the sentence it was used in. The statement said "if" the topics I discuss are too hard to handle, then the site is small minded.
"if" is the key word. You are just a witchy woman and I don't believe you are a Christian at all the way you attack me and support atheists who hate God and Christians. I know many "Christians" like you, worldly, unholy lifestyles listening to unholy sin glorifying music and entertainments. I don't believe you are saved. You sure don't act like it.
Oh, I don't know why the old messages keep popping up as if I never replied to them...but that's ok, it's good for you to hear it again since you obviously still have a messed up pseudo-Christian attitude which does not care what the word of God says.
I said "if". The lie was framed to imply there was no meaning of using the word "if". I stand by the statement. Apparently, my statements have not been too much of a challenge to be considered acceptable for the site, so it is not a small minded site.
I am changing or recanting nothing I have said. That liar was twisting my words to slander me and you are supporting him.
"If" you continue to support this guy who says I said things I did not say (I never called anybody small minded because they did not meet the qualification for being small minded by saying my statements are too much of a challenge to be acceptable for this site)..."if" you continue to support this liar, then I have to say your basket is missing a few weaves due to your incapacity to comprehend facts.
I said "if". The lie was framed to imply there was no meaning of using the word "if". I stand by the statement. Apparently, my statements have not been too much of a challenge to be considered acceptable for the site, so it is not a small minded site.
I am changing or recanting nothing I have said. That liar was twisting my words to slander me and you are supporting him.
"If" you continue to support this guy who says I said things I did not say (I never called anybody small minded because they did not meet the qualification for being small minded by saying my statements are too much of a challenge to be acceptable for this site)..."if" you continue to support this liar, then I have to say your basket is missing a few weaves due to your incapacity to comprehend facts.
The site would be small minded "IF" my statements are too much of a challenge to be acceptable. IF for crying out loud. What part of "IF" do you not understand? Don't make me call YOU small minded please.
My own words testify that I did not say what the liar is accusing me of saying. The word "IF" used by me stops short of saying what that whiny faced liar says I was saying. I used that word IF purposely, and it seems to me that the English construct in the sentence is clear in meaning. Sometimes I think you are smoking week like a lot of others here.
He quoted my words and then twisted them into saying something I did not say. In his version of what my words actually say, he left out the word "if" and said I called the site small minded. You are supporting a liar who twisted things to slander me and I have to believe he did it purposely knowing exactly what he was doing because he refused to admit what he did.
You got banned and lost my appreciation because it seems you only approach me with an attitude of superiority even to the point of supporting an anti-Christ liar like this clown.
Most of the people here are young and have not been taught to use good manners respectfully with others. This is a generation raised by television, followed by a generation raised on video games and internet. Many of the people on sites like this are very young, from twenties down. Television and public education teach kids to be disrespectful toward authority and reverent toward nothing. When they are talking like fools and acting like idiots, I probably will say so after I have tried to reason with them. It's sad that so many today have been taught to be rude rather than to listen and speak civilly. Places like this are the haunts of perverts, psychopaths, sociopaths.....or reprobate minds as the Bible puts it. They have been taught that there is no God, so they have no solid reason for good behavior other than personal benefit. If they feel like behaving badly and think they won't be punished for it, they think "why not", especially when it might or does feel good for a moment or two.
This was my first debate on this site. There are very few people on this site. Most of the regulars are anti-Christ haters, taught to varying degrees to reject God, reject Jesus Christ, reject the Bible. I banned them after they were excessively rude or foul mouthed......and that line is crossed easily. I really think it's sad when a person believes God does not love them. I always thought it was possible that God loves me, even when I did not believe He really cared for me personally....there was always a tiny piece inside me that held hope that God does indeed care for me personally. I did not understand how I could be sure until I realized God would be righteous to end my time at any moment because I'm a sinner, and I believed on the resurrection of Jesus Christ the Lord who took my place in death, and I received Him as He is, the Lord God the Savior. When I knew the truth, I bowed wholeheartedly admitting my guilt, realizing I was as good as dead for being a sinner, and found myself in the hands of God, alive, knowing Jesus Christ is God and alive and He gave me a new heart, made me a new creature, and took His rightful place on His throne in my heart and now lives in me by His Holy Spirit. At that moment, my eyes were suddenly opened and I knew I was born again. Suddenly the words on the pages of the Bible sprang to life, like they were dancing, jumping off the pages. I understood the word of God in a living way, so much more than intellectual attempts to read and understand the meaning...attempts that never reveal the truth. I knew the truth after I conceded to it, admitting my worthiness of Hell and God's right to rule over and against me as His creature who was in rebellion against Him.
You know what would happen if you were standing in my house harassing me like this, accusing me of saying things I did not say by taking three or four words out of a long sentence and twisting the meaning in a way to try to accuse me of wrongdoing? You would either immediately turn and leave or you would get thrown out and probably at least a few bruises.
Apparently you believe there is no love of God for you. I don't know what point you are trying to make, but if you cannot explain your reasoning for why you believe God does not love you, then you don't have anything to say. I guess you are saying you believe there is no God, but your big words twist so much it's hard to tell what you are trying to say. Assuming you believe there is no God and therefore you believe it is not possible for you to be loved by God, I accept that as the sum total of all you have to say in this debate...and it really amounts to nothing.
Interesting the way the initial argument was worded "does God love you this implies that God actually exists a subject that I have endless counterpoints however this is similar to the statement " do you still beat your wife " a statement that implies even if you answer yes or no you have at some stage beaten your wife
I'm happy you are happy that you think that God loves you this is your raisin d'être however blinkers aside even you must see that this is a cruel and heartless world the babies that suffer and die is it their fault , the young victims of sexual abuse are they guilty of not worshipping enough ( some of them victims of members of the clergy but that's ok if they repent they will still go to heaven )
It seems to me there are people in the world who do fantastic work for their fellow kind but God doesn't love them because they won't fall to their knees and worship God surely a kind benevolent God would welcome these people but no they are destined to burn in hell ergo God must be an egotistical vain dictator whose only pleasure comes from the subservient nature of man so sad to say no God doesn't love me
Are you sure it's God who is vain and egotistical and not you? You sure sound like you are full of yourself, and if your attitude is what you call happiness, I want no part of it....God wants you to stop beating your wife and I'm sure your wife would appreciate it. I don't think God is anybody's raisin to eat, even though you seem to think you have devoured Him. Are you blinking? Can you see past your own death and the cruelty to yourself of your willful rejection of God's love? You can answer yes if you can see Hell has no fire escape.
The fact that God lets you go on and on and on talking like such a buffoon, abusing His air in your attempts to slander Him should be proof to you that He loves you and does not want you to die, but wants you to have eternal life. You are choosing death and somehow you think you are smart and strong in your choice.
I did ban you, right? Ok..........I hope God has not banned you from life yet and left you in Hell. As long as you are still with us, there is time for you to be saved. Time is running out.
By your own words you have no valid way of supporting your own argument, so your arguing here is over...you can argue against God's love forever if you want too. I'm sorry you feel that way.
And so it must be said neither do you, you have no evidence whatsoever of "gods love " where I have given examples of bad things that can happen that are not people's own fault, that God could rectify if he so deemed yet you ignore statements that go against your own beliefs and follow. Blindly to the point of delusion so it is you I feel sorry for look to science for the truth not a mythical being
The evidence of His love is all around you, you can accept it or not. The fact that He allows you to sit there insulting Him without ending your time and hope of ever knowing Him is proof of His love for you. He does not want you to be lost in death and Hell forever. That is why He took on a body like yours and took your death, and now is risen from the dead offering you forgiveness of the debt you can never pay off...He paid it for you, that's how much God loves you. The fact that you insist there is no evidence of God's love only proves that you are willfully ignorant.
The thing that needs to be rectified most for you is your own life which you are losing fast and in danger of finalizing your loss of your life in Hell by your insistence that God's love is not for you.
My life is rectified in the bodily resurrection of God the Son, Jesus Christ. He is my life and I am going to see Him face to face and have a new body like His......free from sin and death forever. I know I have eternal life now, I know God loves me and I know He loves you and you can know but I guess you think you are too good for God. Sorry. Are you sure you are not the blind one, when you can't see past your own grave which is pulling you down in darkness now?
You and your faith in science is only sealing your separation from God because of all of your wrongdoings, all of your violations of God's law...But He still loves you, believe it or not.
God loves, me, loves you, and loves everyone. if he didn't then everyone in this debate would be suffering in hell right now. not just us but everyone. He loves you enough to give you a chance to learn right from wrong and do the right thing. Sadly many will choose wrong and lead themselves to destruction. but you can be saved, Just know that God does love you and that if you follow him then you will find heaven.
I dont understand some of these people(s) train of thought. I dont see how you can agree that God created you, but does not love you. It said that God loved us so much, he allowed his creations to love or hate/deny his love and existence.
I don't understand their point of view on this either. but that is why this is a debate. we must explain to them why what they're saying makes no sense and prove that God loves us all. Infact: Saintnow created this debate for that exact reason. But one day when they see fire (if you know what I mean) they will come around.
If people find themselves in the fire of Hell, they don't "come around". They will forever be unable to believe God loves them due to the fact of there being nothing good in Hell by which we can see God's love extended to us.
I'm guessing that you are a Catholic or something that believes in universal forgiveness, universal salvation, no need of Christ at all since in your thinking everybody gets out of Hell eventually. That's doctrines of devils and I'm not going to allow you to try to run my debates inserting heretical teachings and ignoring me.
You sound like a Catholic. You are teaching a religion of self-justification. There is only one way to Heaven, and it's Jesus Christ. You cannot enter Heaven except through Him. Doing the right thing does not change you from being what you are, a sinner. I banned you from other debates for your way of pretty much ignoring me and trying to take the lead in discussions...rudeness to me. This is my debate. If you want to discuss the love of God according to your own feelings, and run the show, do it in your own debate.
I believe God loves me, but not for the reasons you stated. I also believe God loves all his children unconditionally. Even if they denounce him during life and even if they sin. As long as they don't sin more than they do good. When they die they have a chance to repent and ask for forgiveness to his face. And I believe God allows them to join him in heaven after that, especially if they were good people during life.
It seems like you are implying that your goodness equal's God's goodness. It's good that you believe God loves you, but how can you believe you are good enough for God to owe you exemption from Hell? If you have sinned, you are a sinner and cannot be good enough to live forever. The proof is that you are dying. What makes you think you are God's child when you are insisting that you are good enough for Him even though He is sinless and you are a sinner, He is perfect and you are corrupt by sin? I'm glad you believe God loves you, but I'm afraid you are mistaking His love for weakness.
No, you're implying that I think my goodness is at his level. All I said was that God loves all his children unconditionally and therefore he can show forgiveness. It's not a weakness to show forgiveness, it's actually a strength. You're also implying that you know God personally and know exactly what he thinks and how he behaves. Where did you learn this? In all actuality none of us know if we are good enough for God. I highly doubt God is as judgmental as most religions make him to be. Mostly because all the scriptures, although holy to their sects, were written by men trying to interpret God's word. Who's to say they got it right? God is something none of us mortal beings can ever fully understand. God branded us with a sense of morality in a sin filled world, however. So I'm sure as long as you make the right choices you will he fine when the time comes.
So God owes you time for being a good or doing good? You don't deserve to die and burn in Hell, you deserve God's respect and His love because you are good?
You can know God personally. I do. You can. He reveals Himself in Jesus Christ who is God and is alive forever and will come in to you and give you a new life, a new heart from God, make you a new person. I know He can and He will if you will repent and believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and stop trying to tell God how good you are so you expect Him to bow to you when it's your time to be judged.
You do not know God if you do not know Him personally. There is no other way to know Him, Jesus is the Way, He died in your place, paid your price in death so you don't have to pay in eternal death in Hell. That's the love of God for you. If you think you are good enough to live forever, I hate to say go ahead and give it a shot and try but God does love you enough to let you try it your own way as it seems you insist on doing.
No, he doesn't owe me anything. He did promise forgiveness, however. And being a good person throughout life should give you that. Like I said, how do you know what it takes to get into heaven or not? We can only guess ...unless your second point is true. If you know God personally then you are a prophet and I obviously cannot debate your standing. I pray to God, I see signs of his existence. I see signs of his forgiveness and love. Love is unconditional or else it isn't love.
What you are seeing is God's mercy. You think you are proving that you are exempt from punishment in death by being too good for Hell, but you are a sinner and that's what Hell is for...to confine sin forever. Your sin is in you and you are trying to tell yourself that you are better than your sin and do not deserve sins punishment. Even though your own death tells you that you are wrong, you keep fighting against yourself trying to prove yourself right.
How do I know what it takes to get into heaven? How do you not know after you have been told repeatedly...you must be born again.
You are trying to go your own way thinking you are making yourself good or better when in reality you are only hardening your own death as your time counts down to zero. You can't earn the right to enter heaven. You are trying to pull yourself into heaven by your bootstraps and your hands are dirty....no dirty hands allowed in heaven. God shed His blood for your sins so you can be forgiven if you will admit that you are the one who deserves to die and burn in Hell, but you keep saying you are too good for that and God won't buy it from you. He loves you but you are expecting Him to bow to you as if He owes you a Do-Not-Burn-In-Hell-Forever card because you are tying to tell him that your goodness outweighs your evils. You are only fooling yourself. God loves you and only asks that you repent of your sin and believe on His resurrection and receive Him as your Savior by faith.
God's promise of forgiveness is only by accepting the payment of His blood for your sins, only by admitting your blood-guiltiness and worthiness of eternal condemnation in Hell, only by agreeing with God as to His right to punish your sin, only by believing He took your punishment and only by receiving Him as your Savior. You are trying to insist God owes forgiveness to you while you are paying for yourself with your own works which cannot get you out of death, cannot save you from Hell. God won't buy it, sorry.
The way you are saying God promises forgiveness and "Love is unconditional or else it isn't love", then there is no good reason to be good because you can be as evil as any devil and count on God's unconditional love and forgiveness....you are trying to prove that God owes you something and He owes neither of us anything but death for our sins because that is what we earned...
God's unconditional love allows you to go your own way into Hell if that is what you want to do, and in reality that is what you are doing....believing you are too good for Hell when in reality you are no better than me and no better than Hitler...we all deserve to die for our sins, all the same, none good, not you nor me...all as good as dead.
Oh I know I'm a sinner, I never said I wasn't. I'm not making myself better than anyone else, I'm saying everyone has that opportunity God's forgiveness/mercy. I clearly said that being a good person is a start, not being evil and asking for mercy. You stated yourself that if someone denounces God that He still loves them. What you are saying is, that if when they meet him they repent then they may stand a chance. Born again Christians, for example, found God late in life, yet I believe they have a place in heaven. Can't you do the same in death? Hell would have more people than heaven if God didn't show some sort of mercy by noticing that your good outweighs your sinning.
You are not a good person or you would not have to die. You are corrupt, rotten to the core the same as me. Sinners are not good people. Only God is good. You are not God. Your "goodness" is filthy stinking rags to God. My goodness is the same as yours, corrupt, poisoned by sin and nothing you or I can do will get rid of our rottenness. You can't even be good enough to get out of Hell, or to get out of death, let alone good enough to get into Heaven. Why is it so hard for you to understand, except for your pride? You think you are good enough for God when all you are good enough for is to die the same as me. There is none good, no, not one. God loves you but He hates your sin and you think you are forcing Him to forget your sin based on your own feelings of goodness. You are trying to justify yourself when in reality the only thing justified. You are talking a bunch of nonsense.....wishful thinking, self-deceptive nonsense.
Hell will have more people than heaven. Most people will never truly believe they deserve to be separated from God confined in the fire of Hell forever, even when they find they cannot get out of the fire. Most people will never find God's mercy because like you they will think they are too good to deserve Hell. Most people are religious like you, doing anything and everything to convince themselves that they are not going to burn in Hell forever. Most people will not believe on the bodily resurrection of God the Creator who died for them to be their Savior, most people will trample His blood under their feet instead of believe God gave it to cover their sins so they can be forgiven when they repent and believe on the Lord Jesus Christ. If you finalize your death, let your time count down to zero believing your "goodness" exempts you from Hell and you are not trusting in what God did on your behalf to save you by taking your sins on Himself and dying in your place and rising from the dead by His own power to be the justifier of all who repent and believe on Him, then you will find your goodness useless in getting you out of death and you will know nothing but God's wrath because you did not believe on His Son as your salvation and chose rather to stand on your own works. God loves you, but that does not mean He has to respect you for your efforts toward justifying yourself as a sinner.
if your good (which you have none because you are corrupt...the same as when you take a glass of pure water and put one drop of poison in it, it's all bad...that's how we are, we are polluted and there is nothing we can do to change that. A leopard cannot change his spots and you cannot remove your sin).....if your good could outweigh your bad, then you would never have to die. Your bad always has and always will hold you in death and pull you down to Hell because you did it and you can't undo it by trying to blow beautiful smoke screens in front of God's face so He can't see the repulsiveness of your unholy and ungodly words, thoughts, and actions. You are only trying to fool yourself.
God knows you are dying and need to be saved if you know it or not. He is giving you time because He does not want to lose you forever in death. He loves you so much that He became a man, the Son of God, to take your place in death and pay for your sins whole.
You are trying to justify yourself for life, and it is not possible. All you can justify yourself for is death, but somehow you are telling me that you think you are good enough to have eternal life in God's love. You are not living in reality. God loves you and wants you to believe on jesus, for what He did to save you from Hell. If what He did for you is not good enough for you and you think you can do better for yourself, I'm sorry but that seems insane. All you are getting your own way is death no matter how good you think you are and no matter how great you or anybody else says you are.
From your own reasoning you have no logical explanation as to why you believe God love you. I think the truth is that you are afraid He does not love you and you are trying to do better and do more good in order to earn He love. He offers His love to you freely, you can't earn it, it's in Jesus Christ who rose from the dead bodily and is alive after He died for your sin to save you from Hell.
That is the only valid and logical proof of God's love.
The proof that He loves you now is that you are not burning in Hell now. God does not want you to burn in Hell because He loves you and is giving you time desiring that you will repent and believe on Jesus.
I don't know what else to say to you. If you think you can earn God's love rather than accept His love through faith in the blood He shed to pay for your sins, and the forgivness He offers you in His resurrection....then you won't accept God's love and that is your own choice.
not sure what you are saying here...........corrected. I read your posts more carefully. Thank you for your posts and the good example you show for civil discourse.
First, this isn't a debate, this is proselytizing.
Second, saying "worship me or burn in hell" is not love. Many people can not "choose" to suddenly believe in God or the divinity of Jesus, for a wide variety of reasons. According to Christianity and Islam, these people will be tortured for eternity for reasons that are outside of their control.
You have to remember that at first it wasn't about belief. He had direct relations with humans; they conversed with God. We were given pretty much everything we could have needed and wanted the problem was that he established rules, that ultimately not followed.
He cannot possibly be doing a terrible job of supporting his argument when there is no argument to be had in the first instance. Your debate does not specifically pose any question for him (or anyone) to answer so he can only comment in line with the framework’s content i.e. describing his view. Even if you disagree, you cannot fault him for that.
You are going all scattergun shotgun jumping around. Try to explain in a focused manner why you believe God does not love you, instead of jumping all over the world trying to debate everything else. If you will read the several times that your erratic arguments were responded to, you will see that all of your points were addressed even though you are avoiding explaining why you believe God does not love you.
I did in my first comment. You then responded by saying I did a "horrible job", instead of addressing the point I made which was on topic. That is not jumping all over the world, that is responding directly to what you said to me.
And no, my points were not addressed by you, they were responded to with repetitions of scripture which did not address my issues.
If you end up burning in Hell with no way out, it will be because you are a sinner who refused God's offer of pardon through faith in the blood of His Son which He shed as payment for your sins because He loves you so much, He died for you. If you end up burning in Hell, it's only because you chose to pay for your own sins rather than believe God Himself paid your price so that you could be forgiven. If you finalize your death your own way, the end is Hell where sin will be confined forever and never again disrupt God's Creation.
You choose to believe whatever you want to believe. If you won't believe the truth, your unbelief will not change the truth. Most people will not believe Hell is real and undeniably incomprehensibly unpleasant until they find themselves unable to get out of the fire.
You are sending yourself to Hell. God made the way out for you, but you won't stop going against Him so what is He supposed to do with you? Let you roam around like a disruptive evil clown forever?
You are mistake about many things, I'll start with Islam in this post. Islam teaches that Hell is temporary, a place where infidels receive correction so they will believe God's name is Allah and then Allah will let them out of Hell to live in Mohammed's paradise. That is why they believe it is good to kill all the infidels. Eventually, in Islamic belief, everybody ends up with God in paradise. The easy way to paradise, according to Islam, is to become a Muslim by insisting God's name is Allah and Muahammed is His proppet. The hard way for you to go to paradise, according to Islam, is for you to be killed as an infidel so you can be corrected in Hell and then you become a Muslim so you are good to go to paradise. You might want to become a Muslim now.
Your idea of Christianity is skewed. The Bible teaches that Hell is just punishment which sinners bring upon themselves. Accusing God of torturing people in Hell is trying to shift the blame for your death away from your sin and place that blame on God for not letting you get away with it. Try to think logically here.
God loves you so much that He took your place in death, He died to save you even though you trample His blood under your feet saying it is nothing for you, no good for you. He is risen from the dead and has every right to be angry with you for putting Him through it when you insist you don't want what He did for you to save you from Hell. If you end up burning in Hell with no way out, you did it to yourself. It is you who is opposing God's love. You are the opposite of God's love, you are going against yourself by insisting God does not love you.
Your idea of Christianity is skewed. The Bible teaches that Hell is just punishment which sinners bring upon themselves.
Yes, simply by not believing in God.
Accusing God of torturing people in Hell is trying to shift the blame for your death away from your sin and place that blame on God for not letting you get away with it. Try to think logically here.
Logically, God is a monster. He sends people to be tortured for eternity for not worshiping him, regardless of how good and "moral" their lives were. That is quintessential vanity.
God loves you so much that He took your place in death, He died to save you even though you trample His blood under your feet saying it is nothing for you, no good for you.
You are right, I see no reason to worship a god that tortures people simply for not believing in him.
God loves you so much that He took your place in death, He died to save you even though you trample His blood under your feet saying it is nothing for you, no good for you.
Not really. You are ascribing incredibly human emotions onto god, and declaring them justified, despite the fact that, as the Alpha and Omega, he created everything knowing who would and would not go to Heaven long before they were born. That is unbelievably cruel to then punish said individuals for a system he created.
If you end up burning in Hell with no way out, you did it to yourself.
Only if you disregard god's omniscience and omnipotence, starting with "I am the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end" in Genesis.
1. more than that, you can believe in God and Jesus Christ but if you don't live according to the bible Satan has your soul in his hands and will more than willingly drag your soul to hell and torture you
2. God does NOT send people to hell. When people don't believe in God and live accordIng to the bible Satan has control of that person's soul and can and will take the person to hell.
3. Same and number 2
4. He does NOT punish us. The punishment comes from the sin. For instance Sexual Sin, when done outside of marriage Sex can bring terrible hurt to the individual emotionally and sometimes physically (By that I mean the Sexually Transmitted Diseases that may occur)
God does indeed send people to hell, by allowing a system in which Satan takes people's souls if they do not worship god. That is, indeed, a punishment. The idea that the "sin" of not being able to believe in Christianity is enough to warrant eternal torture is horrifying.
So you don't believe in God. Then you don't have anything to argue about, do you? I still insist that God loves you if you believe in God or not. Your unbelief cannot change the fact that God loves you. If all you can say is "I don't believe in God" then you don't have anything to argue about.
I have addressed, including in the comment you responded to, why I believe that within Judaeo-Abrahamic theology, God does not love the individual. I have done that regardless of my non-theistic stance. And yet you ignore that, while at the same time asking me in other posts to debate the topic.
If you don't believe in God, you cannot begin to understand His omniscience or omnipotence, nor His omnipresence. You might want to try to argue that He is omnibenevolent so that you can feel like he could not possibly leave you condemned in Hell.
Omnibenevolence isn't needed for my argument. If God is indeed the Alpha and the Omega, yada yada, that means that when creating existences, he can see the end of existence, and everything in between. This means that God would have created everything, knowing everything that would happen. Which means he created the everyone, knowing who would be going to hell for eternity, for choices that, ultimately, were not theirs to make.
Yes God knows who will repent and believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and be saved from Hell and who will not. I do not know. For all I know, it is entirely possible that the switch in your brain might flip and the light come on and you will know God personally through Jesus Christ your Savior and be saved from Hell. The fact that God knows if you will receive Jesus or not does not exempt you from responsibility for making the choice. The ONLY real reason people refuse to believe on Him is that they know they will have to agree with God and take sides with Him against the sin which they love and do not want to give up. You choose your sin over God's forgiveness and because God loves you He will let you keep it in Hell where your existence can be justified in never ending punishment of death. I hope you decide differently before it's too late, and come into agreement with God regarding His right to rule over you.
He's offering you eternal life, and you are choosing eternal death and trying to blame Him for giving it to you. It's your own fault if you wake up in Hell, and accusing God of not being good will never get you out of it and you will never find any reason to believe God is good like you can now.
First, this isn't a debate, this is proselytizing.
Second, saying "worship me or burn in hell" is not love. Many people can not "choose" to suddenly believe in God or the divinity of Jesus, for a wide variety of reasons. According to Christianity and Islam, these people will be tortured for eternity for reasons that are outside of their control.
You won't read posts that are over a paragraph long, but you won't download and watch pornography. What is wrong with me burning in lust like a devil in the sandbox of Hell's fire screaming in agony?
You said you smoked so much pot It made you feel like you wanted to be the opposite gender, so you began working on mutilating your body enough so you might be able to fool people into thinking you are something you really are not....correct, or am I bearing false witness against you?
Logically, God is a monster. He sends people to be tortured for eternity for not worshiping him, regardless of how good and "moral" their lives were. That is quintessential vanity.
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The vanity is yours. You are trying to make God into a monster. It's you who is being monstrous against God, trying to murder Him, trying to accuse Him falsely and blame Him for your evil. God can give you a new heart, a new Spirt, and make you into a new creation to have eternal life in His Kingdom of Heaven, but you want to be a sinner forever as you are now, proud of yourself for feeling strong in defiance against your Creator. You are trying to make God hopeless when it's you who is hopeless without His mercy. For now you have hope in His mercy, but you are running out of time and the blood of Jesus Christ who died for you will testify against you if you will not thank God for giving it as the covering, atonement, propitiation for your sins.
Not really. You are ascribing incredibly human emotions onto god, and declaring them justified, despite the fact that, as the Alpha and Omega, he created everything knowing who would and would not go to Heaven long before they were born. That is unbelievably cruel to then punish said individuals for a system he created..................................................................................................................................................
You want to believe that God is not good. It is not cruel for Him to leave you in the fire of Hell where there will be no sign of His goodness, nothing good to enjoy, nothing good to see, nothing good to feel, hear, smell, touch, or taste.....You want to believe God is not good, you have broken His law, and it is justice for Him to leave you in Hell where you can have what you want, eternity void of evidence of God's goodness. He does not want you to go to Hell, and it makes Him angry that you are demanding He give you proof that He is not good. In Hell you will forever prove to yourself that God is not good TO YOU....but He will remain good forever. It is good to know God will separate evil and remove it from the presence of the living, and Hell will confine all sin, and the corruption of sinners will never again interfere with the harmony of God's intention for Creation, and the smoke of the torments of those in the Lake of Fire will rise forever as a testimony to God's goodness for the Living and the Redeemed to witness and testify to.
Only if you disregard god's omniscience and omnipotence, starting with "I am the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end" in Genesis.
You are rejecting Him as your God. It's JUSTICE for Him, your Creator, to reject you and not allow you in His Kingdom. You are choosing your own eternity denying God's goodness, and your doing it to yourself when God has made the way for you to be delivered from death into eternal life. You are bringing your own condemnation on yourself, and blaming God for creating you won't get you out of it.
Going by what you have posted I appreciate that you may be a Christian, but the abrasive manner in which you are airing your beliefs does not translate at all well. There is nothing wrong with sharing your beliefs on this site, but it should be in the context of an actual debate (the site’s purpose), not as a platform for proselytism. Just try to be a little more respectful of others in that way.
I'm sorry you feel abrased. I'm only trying to dispute people who do not believe that God loves them, and you seem to be one of those people. You don't have to feel that way, you can believe God loves you and you can believe that I am only concerned about your well being and care enough to tell you the truth that you can be saved from Hell.
Well…as a Christian myself I am fully aware that God loves me so you needn’t extend your concern in that sense. I confess I am rather bemused as to how you came to that conclusion considering my post was solely directed toward your approach to the subject, not a declaration or even an implication of disbelief in God. Please read comments thoroughly before responding to them.
The debate is valid, I have offered validations of the fact that God loves you and I invite you to explain why you believe God does not love you. If this is too much of a challenge to be considered acceptable for this site, I would have to say it's a small-minded site, with all due respect.
I would very much like to win this debate with you so that you believe God loves you and know Him personally as your Savior. This is indeed a debate, you are arguing against God and I am arguing for Him trying to win you for Him so you can have eternal life in Heaven rather than eternal death in Hell.
The debate is God loves you VS I don't believe it, you can rephrase the opposing position as "God does not love me", or something like that. Please debate on topic.
Unfortunately your opening (and erroneous) supposition of my beliefs does not exactly generate much of a discussion. In light of my correction then, you ought to know that I am content to share my beliefs with anyone but do so in the appropriate context. This is a debate forum for ALL perspectives. You should be considerate of that rather than being here on a mission to try to ‘win anyone’. Why not try fair engagement with contrary views as opposed to outright dismissal of them?
So your life is all about you, that's wonderful. I'm all about Jesus, my life is lost for His name's sake and His gospel. I take up my cross daily, denying myself of ungodliness and worldly lusts, that I may know Him and the power of His resurrection. I don't think you are a Christian at all. Just a worldly woman who thinks she is good so she can lecture people on how they should act.
I respect your feelings, and understand that you are antagonistic against the Word of God and don't want the gospel to be published. That's why I banned you and probably always will ban you, because you are stubborn and don't seem to care what God says.
Also hell is not temporary, in the bible it clearly states FOR ETERNITY because that's what satan wants. To have those who didn't accept God's rescue burn for eternity because it hurts god's heart.
Thank you for pointing that out. I hope you read the post you are replying to and noticed that I stated clearly that ISLAM teaches that Hell is temporary, a place of correction where infidels become Muslims so they can go to paradise. The reason God died for us as the Son of God, Jesus, was to pay for our sins so we would not have to pay forever in Hell. What He did for us proves His love in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. I'm not sure why you seem to be taking issue with me...which side of this debate are you on?
No, idiot, you do not understand the Word of God or the teachings of Islam. Your sin takes you to Hell. There is no place for sin in Heaven, sinners have no place to be but in the fire of Hell. Only God's mercy allows you time in the world outside of Hell as a sinner.
Islam teaches that after correction by the fire of Hell, you will learn to always say God's name is Allah and Muhammed is his profit, and then you will be released from Hell and allowed to live in paradise. That is why they teach it is good to kill those who are infidel against Islam....they are doing the Islamaphobes a favor by sending them to Hell where they can be corrected so they can live in paradise.
The torments of Hell are brought on sinners by themselves. God died for you, He made the way for you to be saved from Hell, if you reject Him as your Savior, then He will be your judge and you will keep your own death in Hell by your own choice, God unwillingly but lovingly giving you want you wanted in the world, proof of the absence of His tender loving care for you.
You're an idiot if you won't stop arguing against God.
Most are wrong here... The creator of this debate did a terrible job wording it out. God tells us to choose him so he can save you from hell, because if you don't choose him satan has your soul and satan will take you to hell.
A person's sin takes them to Hell which was created for the devil and his angels. I'm not sure I can be in agreement with you when you are misplacing blame. It seems like maybe you need to create your own debate and try to say whatever it is you are trying to say.
Try to focus on God's love please, either you believe He loves you or you believe He does not love you and please explain why you are on whatever side you are on, thank you.
I really do not know how you are missing the point. I am saying that he does not love the individual because of the things I have pointed out. You have also repeatedly claimed I have misplaced the blame, but you have not explained why you think that. Please address what I am saying, instead of simply repeating yourself.
Why do you feel God does not love you? This is about you, not about your opinion of everybody else. You're trying to dodge the issue by making it about "the individual" in general rather than about you. This is about you. God loves you. You are the only individual you answer for......though you try to avoid it.
That choice is irrelevant, though. The Bible says that god is the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end. God created existence, knowing everything that would happen ahead of time. He created everything, essentially preordained, and therefore the choice is no real choice at all.
Regardless, outside of that theological idea, many do not "choose" to believe or not. I spent much of my youth wishing I was a Christian, and actively trying to believe in Christianity, for a variety of reasons. I was, of course, unsuccessful. So I am to be punished for eternity because of that?
Irrelevant? Is math irrelevant? Is some of the wheel irrelevant? Yes God knew what would happen but we still choose our path. He knew what we would choose but he wouldn't do anything to take away ouR freedom of choosing.
Being that you don't believe Jesus died for you, sadly yes. Satan has the ability to take you to hell when you die.
If god knew what would happen, and created everything accordingly, then there is no actual choice that was made. There is no freedom to choose, if he created everything in such a way that we would choose that.
And your second part is the proof that God does not love the individual. He loves to be worshiped.
you are punished in death for your sin. You have eternal life or you have eternal death. Death and sin will be forever separated from life in Hell. Life will be eternal in Heaven. God has the right to leave you in Hell if you will not believe He loves you because He took your place in death to save you from paying for your own sin. Jesus will be your Judge if you insist He is not you Savior. You can't become a Christian by wishing or trying, you have to be born of the Spirit of God by believing on Jesus in His resurrection and calling on God in Jesus' name to save you from Hell. If you will repent of your sin and believe on Him and receive Him as your Savior, He will come in to you and live in you by His Holy Spirit, making you His child as a new creation in Christ.
You are being punished already for your sin, you are being executed now, you are on death row and the clock is counting down to finality of execution. God Himself took your execution and in His resurrection offers you pardon based on the fact that He paid your price and is satisfied with that payment on your behalf. If you are punished in Hell, it is only because you refused His payment on your behalf, it is only because you rejected Him as your Savior hoping you would not have to face Him as your Judge, but that is a false hope worthy of Hell.
This is what I am talking about. You addressed nothing of what I said, and chose to repeat previous proselytizing. Why are you here if you aren't going to actively debate?
You are choosing to not believe on Jesus who is your Creator who died for you to be your Savior, and by your own choice He is going to be your Judge and you will get the world without God's love that you believe is good for you. Hell is what you are asking for, it's what you will get as God's gift...not the one He wants you to have, but you wont' receive the gift of eternal life through the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ, you wont' receive Him as your Savior, you don't want Him to rule over you so you will be ruled against by your own choice in Hell.
You need to quit thinking that you are better than God. You are ruining yourself.
For the sake of argument I'll assume that god exists. If god loves us so much why did he create us with horrible genetic defects such as harlequin ichthyosis, fibrodysplasia ossificans progressiva, treacher-collins syndrome, crouzon syndrome and progeria. If you want to see just how horrible those things are, take a look, just be warned they are pretty gruesome. There are over 14,000 diseases and mental disorders just in humans and countless more in animals and insects. Are all of those things part of your loving gods design? How about all the following things? WARNING: The links take you to some graphic content.
· Mosquitos that have infected 700 million people with disease in Africa alone, killing millions of them.
· Kissing bugs which have infected 16 to 18 million people with Chaga’s disease, killing 20,000 of them each year.
· Naegleria Fowleria (AKA The Brain-Eating Amoeba) which gets inside your brain and causes headache, fever, nausea, vomiting, confusion, hallucinations, loss of muscle control, seizures, and eventually death.
Either god did a terrible job designing life and his designs have gone horribly wrong, or he intentionally designed it in a way that results in an incredible amount of suffering and violence.
Not only if he wished to, but he created a world knowing that man would sin. I see no other possible way to interpret "I am the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end". If God was indeed the beginning and the end, and was indeed omniscient, then he knowingly made everything exactly how it is. He could have changed it, and prevented man from sinning, but didn't. Is there really a choice involved, then, if God created everything knowing how everything would be? How is that not predestination?
Not only if he wished to, but he created a world knowing that man would sin.
Yes, he did. It's quite natural that the sin option would be chosen.
I see no other possible way to interpret "I am the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end".
I sort of hinted at this in my other response to you, but yes this means he is everlasting.
If God was indeed the beginning and the end, and was indeed omniscient, then he knowingly made everything exactly how it is. He could have changed it, and prevented man from sinning, but didn't.
Why would he stop them from sinning? By doing that he is restricting them of the freedom of choice.
Is there really a choice involved, then, if God created everything knowing how everything would be? How is that not predestination?
Good question. If you play the Sims there are so many actions a sim can make, however you know how the end result will be by choosing their life time goals. In this situation are the sims no longer capable of making their decisions on the way to their goal? Let's say you don't choose a life time goal for the sims, but you will delete the game and only recreate sims who have done good deeds. You know the ending outcome. Do the sims still have no capability to control themselves? This example may not be perfect, but hopefully you see where I'm getting at.
Yes, he did. It's quite natural that the sin option would be chosen.}
The point is that it isn't really a choice if he created it in a way where it was predestined.
Why would he stop them from sinning? By doing that he is restricting them of the freedom of choice.
See the previous repose regarding the nature of said choice.
Good question. If you play the Sims there are so many actions a sim can make, however you know how the end result will be by choosing their life time goals. In this situation are the sims no longer capable of making their decisions on the way to their goal? Let's say you don't choose a life time goal for the sims, but you will delete the game and only recreate sims who have done good deeds. You know the ending outcome. Do the sims still have no capability to control themselves? This example may not be perfect, but hopefully you see where I'm getting at.
But again, how is it a choice if all the factors that go into making said choice were set up by God, and God knew what impact said factors would have when creating them? He could have changed any number of factors so that humanity would make different choices, but he didn't. He set things up knowing what Adam and Eve would do, knowing what Satan would do, knowing that sin would come into existence, etc etc. He made the Garden of Eden exactly as it was knowing what would happen with the apple. How is it then a choice if it was predestined?
But again, how is it a choice if all the factors that go into making said choice were set up by God, and God knew what impact said factors would have when creating them?
I'm not seeing how this question even prompts the notion of non-choice. Factors set up by God. God knows what impacts certain factors will have. I don't see where this invalidates choice.
He could have changed any number of factors so that humanity would make different choices, but he didn't.
So, you just said "so humanity would make different choices", but aren't you arguing against choice? This statement seems to tell me that humanity is capable of making choices.
He set things up knowing what Adam and Eve would do, knowing what Satan would do, knowing that sin would come into existence, etc etc.
Knowing what people will do doesn't mean those people don't have the power of choice.
How is it then a choice if it was predestined?
Is it predestined? Again, he is the beginning and end of all things. The knowledge of people decisions doesn't mean people cannot choose. For example, if you put a mouse in a maze he will wander. Now if you put cheese in some random place in the maze the mouse will choose to go for the cheese. You already know the mouse will go for the cheese. You set it up so that the mouse will go for the cheese. However, there could be a chance where the mouse decides not to go for the cheese. However unlikely the chance still exists. Regardless of how you set this up the mouse will make a decision. It will choose and most likely choose the cheese. Along with that the mouse will decide which paths it will go on. Even if you know what path the mouse will travel on. You know what the mouse will always choose, but to the mouse, he is making his own decisions. His own route.
this has merited banning due to too much ambiguity....the argument seems to be supporting the fact that God loves you but it is given under the heading of "I don't believe it" This is not the first ambiguous answer from this person. I won't allow the debate to be dominated by people trying to play both sides against the middle.
Nope. One sin brought death on mankind. Adam's sin was passed onto all of us, it's in our genes from Adam. It corrupts our genes and disease or susceptibility to disease increases because of it. All death is because of it. All sickness is because of it. It is in the blood of innocent babies the same as it is in your blood, and you are far removed from the innocence of a baby. You are just as guilty as me and everybody else who can comprehend these simple words. God proves His love by giving us time so that we can return to Him like guilty children return to their parents seeking forgiveness. God secured your forgiveness by paying for what you are guilty of with His own blood, and proved His power to keep you in that forgiveness by His resurrection. He will be your life if you will receive Him, Jesus, as your Savior. His life is eternal and He wants you to have it. He wants to make you a new creation, and He can, and He will if you will only trust Him. Whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord will be saved. Ask God the Father in the name of God the Son, to save you from your sin, from death, from Hell, and He will enter the door you are opening to Him and make your life new.
"Come, let us reason together, saith the Lord...though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow....though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool".
Confess to Him, your every sin, He'll cleanse and fill you, give you peace and joy within.
Long time ago, when out in sin...
I had no hope, no peace within...
Down on my knees, in agony
I prayed to Jesus and He gladly set me free!!!
And I never shall forget the day
When all the burdens of my heart were rolled away!!
It makes me happy, glad and free! I'm singing, shouting 'cause He's everything to me
I know God loves you because I know He loves me and I know how He proved His love for me and it proves His love for you. Why in the world anybody wants to believe God does not love them baffles me and I am compelled to try to win this debate with them before they are lost forever.
You didn't answer my questions. You just said, "nope" but didn't specify which of my questions, if any, that was a response to.
1. Yes or no, do you think every time someone commits a sin a new disease just magically springs to life out of nowhere?
2. Who created the diseases that infect millions of people, animals, and insects around the world causing them extreme suffering and/or death?
3. Who created bot flies, mango worms, kidney worms, brain eating amoebas, and all the other horrible creatures out there?
"One sin brought death on mankind. Adam's sin was passed onto all of us, it's in our genes from Adam. It corrupts our genes and disease or susceptibility to disease increases because of it. All death is because of it. All sickness is because of it."
Sin does not spontaneously create those things. So if god exists and is the creator of all life, then he created the diseases. It sound to me like you believe god altered our genes as a punishment for a minor offense. Even if it was a major offense, the punishment is obscene. If a parent infected their child with smallpox for disobeying them, they would be locked up and thought of as a psychotic monster, yet when god does the exact same thing Christians think it's all fine and dandy. Anyone who would create something like Porphyria or Necrotizing Fasciitis is maniacal and cruel.
"Why in the world anybody wants to believe God does not love them baffles me"
It baffles me how anyone could believe he exists at all, and it's even more baffling to think that anyone could see him as loving when this world is filled with so many terrible things.
One of the terrible things in this world is your attitude against God by which you excuse yourself to do whatever sin you feel like doing.
God is giving you mercy when He owes you no time. He loves you and does not want you to be executed. I hope He gives you enough time to believe He loves you and accept what He did for you when He became a man, Jesus, and died for you, took your place in death and offers you forgiveness in His resurrection.
Believe on His resurrection and receive Him as your
Savior and you will know God's love. Be saved and know God's love or be lost and never know God's love, the choice is yours. He holds His arms open to you, calling you with His nail pierced hands stretched out to you because He loves you. If that isn't love, then the ocean is dry, and the sparrow can't fly, and there's no stars in the sky. If that isn't love, then Heaven's a myth and the love, peace, and joy, and hope God gives does not exist and I have NOTHING......that's the way you can look at it, but I know Jesus lives in me and He is my life and I have eternal life and I know He loves me and I know He loves you. Why are you fighting against Him? You can't win against God.
Once again you dodged all my questions, proving you have no interest in debating; you just want to preach.
"One of the terrible things in this world is your attitude against God by which you excuse yourself to do whatever sin you feel like doing."
"Christians" like you are exactly why Ghandi said, “I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ.”
Jesus said not to judge people, yet that's exactly what you and so many other Christians do. You just automatically assume that if someone doesn't worship your god it's because they want to sin. You can't seem to grasp the concept that they simply find the evidence for your god's existence lacking, the same way you find the evidence for all the other gods lacking.
You really should start reading your Bible a little more closely. "Remind them to...speak evil of no one, to avoid quarreling, to be gentle, and to show perfect courtesy toward all people. For we ourselves were once foolish, disobedient, led astray, slaves to various passions and pleasures, passing our days in malice and envy, hated by others and hating one another." Titus 3:1-3
I answered your questions enough to see you will not accept the answers because you hate God and think you are better than Him. Just a waste of time to try to reason with you...you don't listen and then you say you received no answer. I can do better talking to my dog.
I have no interest in debating you. I might was well argue with a wall as to debate you. God loves you and you hate God, so what's the point of arguing?
If you don't wake up and repent, and believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and get saved before your death is finalized, you are going to wake up in Hell. Think about it.
You won't let God answer your questions, so why should I try to answer? You make up your own answers trying to justify yourself and you like it that way, so what am I supposed to do? I can't help you.
You are trying to blame God for problems which are the result of sin. We were created in Adam, the first man, from whom we are descended. He was created with eternal life, then lost that life by choice of rebelling against God. God proved His love by taking Adam's, yours, and my place in death as the Son of God, Jesus Christ. God made a temporary covering for Adam's rebellion by executing the death penalty on an animal in place of Adam, then clothing Adam with that animal's skin as a covering for his sin. This pictured God's promise to become the sacrificial Lamb Himself. Jesus is the Lamb of God who died for our sins, and rose for our justification if we will turn from, against, our sin, repent and believe on His resurrection. If we will believe on Him and receive Him as He is, the Savior, through Him we know God's love. I believe God loves me. I'm sorry you seem to prefer to believe God does not love you. There is nothing more He can do for you than what He did in Jesus Christ.
Jesus is coming back. He will one day remove sin and all of the diseases, pain, and heartaches it has caused forever from His creation and it will exist only in the fire of Hell where it will be confined and not spread any more of it's disease. We would all like to be free of death and disease, wouldn't we? Blaming God for it will never get you free.
We were created in Adam, the first man, from whom we are descended. He was created with eternal life, then lost that life by His choice of rebelling against God.
God created Adam and the Garden knowing he would sin, so how was it a choice? He created the garden in such a way, and Adam in such a way, that said choice would be made. Is it truly a choice, then?
God knew that Adam would chose to disobey Him. God knew His plan of becoming a man like Adam to pay for Adam's disobedience before God created Adam. Maybe that is why God waited half of eternity before He created anybody or anything, because He knew that He would have to pay with His own blood to justify keeping His creatures alive after they incurred His condemnation by breaking His law. He enforced his law upon Himself when He was innocent so that he can be righteous in forgiving all who hope in His mercy and He can be righteous in condemning all who reject His love.
Trying to say that God gives you no choice in believing He loves you is a self-defeating argument. God won't buy it, sorry. Maybe you mistake His love for weakness, thinking that the fact you are not burning in Hell now proves that it is impossible for God to deny you eternal exemption from Hell. God loves you and you are fighting against Him and only securing your condemnation. I hope you stop that before it's too late and believe on His love in Jesus Christ forever so you can be with Jesus, where I will be, in heaven forever, praising Him for His love.
Why do you always have to act like an idiot? The guy was taking like four words out of a sentence and implying that those four words were a separate sentence saying things I did not say. The sentence I used those words in had a completely different meaning, obviously, than what that liar was implying. You might notice that the liar never put his accusation next to my complete sentence when he actually copy and pasted the whole sentence I wrote. That is because his accusation was a lie, and you are an idiot for going along with the guy. Why in the world I thought you had power of reason with common sense to see right and wrong, I don't know. Why I ban you quickly, and even preemptively, I know. You're a pest. God loves you, and I really do hope you get saved and know God's love through Jesus Christ, but you don't care what God did for you in Jesus Christ so I'm not going to let it bother me too much that you are antagonistic. Usually I see your name and icon and just pass it by without reading, and the more I see you make posts like this idiocy supporting a liar, the more I am inclined to not look at anything you type...you and five or ten others are in that club of people who convince me more and more that it is not wise to cast pearls before swine, and it's better to just pass the pigs by and try to avoid breathing their stench.
Did you truly choose to sound stupid, or did you have to sound stupid because you do not have free will? God knew Adam would choose to disobey Him. You choose to be stupid and imply you have no choice in saying stupid things. If you have no choice about being stupid, well then you must by all means be stupid and say stupid things and invent lies like the stupid liar you have been since I first started here and for some reason thought you might be able to choose to be intelligent.
Kissing bugs are not likely to infect you if you don't kiss somebody who kissed kissing bugs before you marry them. Those bugs would not be spread if people would stop committing sexual sin. Kissing somebody you are not married to is sexual sin. If you do it and you catch kissing bugs from it, who's fault is it? Are you trying to say that if God loves you He would not allow you to commit sexual sin? God loves you and wants you to be saved from your sins. Trying to blame God for people's problems will not get you excused for your sin. Why not believe God loves you and come to Him saying sorry for your sin and receive His forgiveness, receive Him as your Savior? Jesus will come into you and make you a new person, and make you to be like Him, sinless in eternal life enjoying all of God's blessings in Heaven forever if you will only believe in His love and receive Him as your Savior...when you do you will understand God hates your sin while He loves you as His child forever and you will one day be free from sin forever, with a new body exempt from pain and disease like Jesus forever. God loves you. Quit fighting Him please, for your own sake.
They're called kissing bugs because they usually bite people near their mouth during the night while they sleep. It has nothing to do with actual kissing.
Can scientists use that same excuse if they create a virus that kills a tens of thousands of people each year? "Wash the blankets and bleach the sheets and quit blaming us."
Can scientists wash away their sins and become innocent? Can they make you innocent? Can they remove your guilt? And if you try to tell me you are guilty of nothing......please, really? we are all guilty and we all deserve to die.
Wash the blankets and bleach the sheets was intended to say take responsibility for your self and quit trying to blame God for things you don't like in your life, the lives of others, or the world. God is going to permanently remove all evil away from all that is good eventually. He could do it now, but some of the evil that would be forever removed is in you and He does not want you to be removed from Him forever. He paid for all of your sins, He took all of your guilt on Himself, gave His life's blood for you so your sins can be covered by Him and He can look at you as innocent, forgiven, paid for, redeemed from death. God offers you eternal life but you keep fighting Him. Stop it please. Confess your sins, forsake your sins, stop doing the things you know He sees as wrong, and receive Jesus Christ as your Savior. Talk to God about it, believe Him, and He will save you. Jesus will come in to you and make you a new person and one day you will be with Him, changed to be like Him to reign in His creation with Him forever.
God loves you. It's hard for me to believe there is nothing I can say to make you believe Jesus is God who died for you and is risen from the dead and will return as the King of Kings, and His blood bought believers will be with Him.
"Wash the blankets and bleach the sheets was intended to say take responsibility for your self and quit trying to blame God for things you don't like in your life, the lives of others, or the world.""
How am I supposed to take responsibility for ebola, smallpox, and brain-eating amoebas? I didn't create those things, but according to your religion god created everything, so why shouldn't he take responsibility for the things he supposedly created?
Death entered in to mankind through sin. Adam sinned, he died. God in mercy gave time, and over time the corruption of sin caused more and more disease in the race of mankind.
God loves all of mankind, and His remedy for sin is preferred by Him over His judgement against it. It has to be put away from Him. To put IT (sin) away without putting all sinners (you and me) away from Him forever in Hell, He took it on Himself in the form of God the Man, the Son of God, Jesus Christ who paid for our sins with His blood. He took the sins of mankind and it's death upon Himself so in His resurrection we can be saved from Hell.
None of the sufferings you are blaming God for compare with the suffering He went through because He loves you too much to let you die with no way of being saved from your sin. You need to look at your sin which caused God's suffering when He died for you to save you from Hell, and know His love. What else can He do for you? He didn't do enough for you? What more do you want from Him? Do you want to sit on His throne and banish Him from His Kingdom because He is not good enough for you? If God allowed that to you, it would mean He does not care about anything....it's not going to happen, you are not God to yourself and you can't be God to anybody else.
So, in your opinion, God hates us because.... bad things happen and exist? My friend, there is path that all of our lives are on and through these paths we formulate our own experiences. How we perceive this world is through the lens that we project through, to simply deny Gods love through the negative things that exist, denies all the countless miracles that have happened. It is your perception that can change a bad world into a good one. \
If he hates us so much, why would he create us in the first place?
Hell was originally made to be a punishment for Lucifer/Satan and his angels. Anyone who rejects Christ is subject to eternal torment. Also, just because God created Hell doesn't mean he doesn't love his worshipers.
God loves YOU even though you are doing all you can to trash Him. He offers you forgiveness but you are trying to place blame on Him who needs no forgiveness. He loves you so much He paid your price by taking death for your sins. It was your sin He died for, not His. He had no sin to hold Him in the ground. He is risen from the dead offering you forgiveness if you will only agree with God that your sin is evil and you need His forgiveness and believe on Him who rose from the dead to be your Savior. If you will not receive Him personally as your Savior, then you are in fact trampling His blood under your feet and saying to God that you prefer to reject His love and pay for your own sin with your own blood by which you will never be able to escape death. God loves you and is offering you a way out of death for eternal life simply because He delights to give His blessings of Heaven to all who will trust Him. He offers things too good for our comprehension in our sinful condition. He makes all things new, but He cannot do this for you if you will not believe He loves you. The choice is yours. God loves you if you worship Him or not, but if you expect Him to tolerate your rebellion forever you are making an infernal mistake.
Do you believe God loves you? Do you believe God does not love you? Why do you believe whichever side of this debate you believe? Please clarify and explain, thank you.
you are trying to play both sides against the middle to exalt yourself here. I'm sorry I had to ban you but I'm not going to continue this kind of arguing.
Once again, banned for ambiguity....saying God can love any person while being on the side of "I don't believe it". I will not allow this debate to be sidetracked by people who are unclear in their positions and seem to be playing both sides against the middle.
But the problem is that he only loves his worshipers. Should he not love all his children? Should an omniscient being really be so absorbed with worship that he sends people to be tormented if they do not worship him?
But the problem is that he only loves his worshipers. Should he not love all his children?
No. There is no reason to love someone who has rejected the glory of God. If they deny the blessings of Christ they are doomed to perish.
Should an omniscient being really be so absorbed with worship that he sends people to be tormented if they do not worship him?
Depending on your view of his omniscience the answer may vary. Some of my studies have shown me that God may not know everything, but is very knowledgeable and that the bible often makes God seem greater than he actually is.
Absorbed with worship? I wouldn't say he is absorbed. Seems rather misleading.
Eternal torment is the punishment of those who do not find his face and seek his glory. However, there have been speculations that the person may just be "deleted" after they die. The bible can be very confusing.
Is that a benevolent being?
Yes. Using human concepts to rationalize a god's actions seems weird. The moral basis of God would naturally trump any of our created moral laws. I don't know what he basis his morality on, but I am in no place to question it.
No. There is no reason to love someone who has rejected the glory of God. If they deny the blessings of Christ they are doomed to perish.
God’s love knows no distinction and extends to believers and non-believers alike. This is why He exercises efforts to reach out to those who do not know Him as yet.
However, there have been speculations that the person may just be "deleted" after they die. The bible can be very confusing.
The notion of “deletion” is not referred to anywhere in the Bible so if anything I am little confused by this statement of yours.
I don't know what he basis his morality on, but I am in no place to question it.
There is no reason to love someone who has rejected the glory of God.
Even though "he" created them? Why? Is God truly that vain?
Depending on your view of his omniscience the answer may vary. Some of my studies have shown me that God may not know everything, but is very knowledgeable and that the bible often makes God seem greater than he actually is.
Out of curiosity, what studies would those be?
Absorbed with worship? I wouldn't say he is absorbed. Seems rather misleading.
How is he not? He creates humanity, then tells them "worship me or burn". The fate of humanity, his creations, rests upon his demand that they worship him. Seems absurbed to me.
Eternal torment is the punishment of those who do not find his face and seek his glory
And what if someone did not "choose" to not believe in God? How does that seem fair?
Yes. Using human concepts to rationalize a god's actions seems weird
We are starting from the premise that god demands people to worship him, so we are using human concepts to rationalize a god employing other human concepts.
The moral basis of God would naturally trump any of our created moral laws. I don't know what he basis his morality on, but I am in no place to question it.
I guess that is where we differ. I see is humanity's place to question it if a supreme being truly did create us simply for the purpose of worshiping him.
Even though "he" created them? Why? Is God truly that vain?
Not at all. They chose to defy God.
Out of curiosity, what studies would those be?
Philosophy studies. We have been doing some apologetics research in our philosophy club.
How is he not? He creates humanity, then tells them "worship me or burn". The fate of humanity, his creations, rests upon his demand that they worship him. Seems absurbed to me.
He says believe in me to be saved or you will perish by the hand of sin. All he asks is that you believe in him. I see this as perfectly fine.
And what if someone did not "choose" to not believe in God? How does that seem fair?
That would be for God to judge. Not me. Maybe they go to heaven. Maybe not.
We are starting from the premise that god demands people to worship him, so we are using human concepts to rationalize a god employing other human concepts.
I believe the nature of "choice" is leading us in an entirely circular argument.
Philosophy studies. We have been doing some apologetics research in our philosophy club.
Any philosophers in particular?
He says believe in me to be saved or you will perish by the hand of sin. All he asks is that you believe in him. I see this as perfectly fine.
That is very easy to say for one who already believes, but it is not a simply choice for those of us who don't. One can not simply "choose" to change their entire belief structure. Believe me, I tried for quite a few years when I was younger, but couldn't. Yet I still live as "good" and "moral" of a life as I can. So I am to be punished because I can not simply "choose" to believe in something that I don't? Mind you I am not an atheist, I am a "Pragmatic Agnostic" (a type of agnostic that believes neither atheism nor theism is capable of being proven in humanity's current state).
That would be for God to judge. Not me. Maybe they go to heaven. Maybe not.
But if said certainty exists, why are so many people, including yourself, saying "He says beleive in me to be saved or you will perish by the hand of sin"?
You missed what I said completely.
No, we just have different concepts of what each of us are saying. We are holding an argument on two entirely different levels, so there is a good amount of disconnect.
I believe the nature of "choice" is leading us in an entirely circular argument.
I guess so. It's just something we see differently on.
Any philosophers in particular?
None I could name off the top of my head. Forgive me for that.
One can not simply "choose" to change their entire belief structure. Believe me, I tried for quite a few years when I was younger, but couldn't.
I've heard this before. Some just can't believe.
But if said certainty exists, why are so many people, including yourself, saying "He says beleive in me to be saved or you will perish by the hand of sin"?
The bible has many verses where some get punished or some just get "deleted". We have no assurance on what happens.
No, we just have different concepts of what each of us are saying. We are holding an argument on two entirely different levels, so there is a good amount of disconnect.
God created us for His own pleasure. He did not create us to worship Him, though we will worship Him if we know His love. He is worthy of and deserves our worship as our Creator and life giver. He gives all of His blessings for us to enjoy if we will trust Him. When a person knows God's love, that person is happy to give God the honor He deserves, and to worship Him as He is, Glorious and good above all and for all who trust Him. What you are arguing against in reality is against your own life. Trying to argue against God will succeed only in excluding you from life, secluding yourself in eternal death where your pride will be consumed and contained in fire like your burning passion to justify your own existence apart from your Creator. God loves you and wants you to stop going against Him and come into reason with Him. Agree with Him before it's too late and you will know His love forever. If you choose to pay for your own sin after you finally and forever have rejected His payment by His own blood, He who desires you to know Him as your Savior will be your Judge. We are all going to give account to God. Either He paid for your sin because He loves you and you can be forgiven if you will repent and believe on His resurrection, or you pay for your own sins forever unable to undo the damage your sins have caused....and there will be no way to dispose of your sin except by taking it into Hell where it belongs. It's your choice. You do not have to believe God loves you, but I sure believe He loves you because I know He loves me and I'm only a sinner like you.
You are not being clear in your reasoning. Do you believe God loves the person who insists God does not love him or her for whatever reason they believe God does not love them?
By saying it is possible that a person may be "deleted" after they die, you are saying God's love is not dependable. You are confused and your reasoning is confusing to those who prefer confusion.
Please stick to the debate topic of either defending the position that God loves whoever is reading, or the position of not believing God loves you and died to save you from Hell.
You seem to be making an underhanded case against God's love.
Please be clear and focus on God's love or on believing God does not love you.
You are not being clear in your reasoning. Do you believe God loves the person who insists God does not love him or her for whatever reason they believe God does not love them?
What are you talking about? God loves whomever he decides to love. That's about it. Why are you making the debate so confusing?
By saying it is possible that a person may be "deleted" after they die, you are saying God's love is not dependable. You are confused and your reasoning is confusing to those who prefer confusion.
God would still know who that person is. God can still love that person. So what are you talking about?
Please stick to the debate topic of either defending the position that God loves whoever is reading, or the position of not believing God loves you and died to save you from Hell.
Excuse me, but I am having a conversation with another individual. I don't need nonsense right now. If you have some valuable input then share it. Otherwise, don't interrupt me please.
God loves you. That is right. To say He does not is wrong. That is black and white. If you want to smear it into a grey area and pretend to be an intellectual elite who doesn't know right from wrong, take your complex somewhere else. You are banned here....and God loves you because He is love. The wrath of God abides on those who reject His Son.
God loves you and you do not worship Him, do you? God loves you so much that He took your place in death and paid the price for your sin so you can be saved from eternal death in Hell. You are rejecting His love. He is worthy of your worship as your Creator and all you are doing is insulting Him. He gives you time, but it's running out. He won't put up with your insults forever and who can blame Him? Blaming God for your torments won't do you any good. He's offering you a way out because He loves you. He loves you so much that He will let you go away from Him forever if you insist on it, and that is what you are doing. The pleasures of going your own way end. The pleasures of eternal life with all of His blessings knowing His love forever never ends. You are making your own choice and trying to blame God. God still loves you or He would end your time now and stop putting up with your mouth.
You have to be born as God's child to be one of His children. You were born as a sinner, and at some point in time you became accountable for your actions and no longer pardoned like an innocent baby. God does not give birth to sinners, sinners give birth to sinners and Satan is the Father of sin. You must be born of God's Spirit to be God's child, you have to receive Jesus Christ as your Savior to receive God's Spirit which will make you a new creation who will be like and with Jesus in His resurrection forever, with Him, by Him, for Him, though Him forever for the glory of God who alone is worthy of all praise and glory and honor. It is He who made us.
I love you right now... this is the most important question that should be asked. I am a hindu though, and am also agnostic in the western use of the word. To me "God" is a thing that exists everywhere in the universe: in people (good or bad), in animals, in rocks, even in empty space. I believe in Karma, which means that every action has a consequence. However I don't think the being others call God decides what the consequences will be, such as going to hell. I feel like my version of god, also known as nature, has a logical consequence already planned out for every scenario. For example, if I steal something, the consequence won't be me going to hell. It will be either going to jail or living the rest of my life having to deal with the fact thatI stole something, which may be detrimental to my brain over a long period of time. I know not a lot of people understand this but I'm hoping someone might.
God is not a thing that exists everywhere in the universe, He is the Omnipotent Person who created the universe and by His power holds it together. All things were made by Him, for His own pleasure and by Him all things consist. You are worshipping the creation and denying the Creator thinking that because you are part of the creation your existence is justified and your life cannot be lost in Hell.
I understand exactly what you are saying in hoping death is the end of the consequences of anything you have done wrong. The problem is that you are in death NOW, dying until it's finalized and death cannot undo the effects your wrongs have had on yourself, on other people, and on the world around you. God is giving you time desiring that you accept His offer of pardon through faith in His blood so you can be forgiven, justified in His resurrection. Jesus Christ is God the Man, the Son of God, God the Son and HE CREATED YOU and YOU are denying Him His rightful place as your ruler. He created Hell for the devil and his angels who are deceiving you with a false "enlightenment" in order to pull you down into the fire with them because they hate God and they hate you because God made you in His own image and the only way the devil can strike back at God is to destroy you who He died to save from Hell. By your insistence on justifying yourself, you are bringing the devil's punishment down on yourself and that punishment is Hell and God is good for confining sinners there forever where they belong. You can be forgiven and not counted as a sinner if you will repent and believe on the Lord Jesus Christ. If you will confess with your mouth that JESUS CHRIST IS LORD and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved from Hell.
I was deep into Americanized Hinduism and would have been considered to be slightly lower than a master level if there were such levels. I will not go into much detail about my experiences, teachers, studies, and practices in Hinduism as I have completely renounced it all as evil and do not in any way want to appear to be implying there was any value in any of it. I'm going to give the truth to you straight, reality 101, and you are free to deny it all you want until you discover that confinement in Hell's consuming fire justifies the existence of sinners forever. There is no other way for your existence to be justified because you have turned against and away from your Creator and you are trying to replace him with yourself for yourself.
God humbled Himself and became a man, with a body like yours, to pay for mankind's sins so that He can be satisfied the debt is paid in full and we can be forgiven. I am forgiven because I know He took my place in death and rose from the dead bodily and is the Living God Almighty who forgave me when I admitted I deserve to burn in Hell and called on God the Father in the name of God the Son, Jesus, who paid my price and bought me back from the execution I deserve in Hell.
You are taking the stance of claiming to be justified by your own existence and too good for Hell. You are making a fatal mistake and following a false path on enlightenment which is designed to pull you down to Hell with the enemies of God who loves them all so much He died for them all. He gave His life's blood for you, died in your place and paid your price and by saying you claim to be part of divinity with the right to exist in nature you are trampling His blood under your feet so the blood of the Son of God, God the Man Jesus Christ, is testifying against you and you are condemned when if you would repent of your sin and believe on His bodily resurrection you can be forgiven and your sins covered by His blood rather than your feet trampling His blood incurring God's wrath against your sin and Hell as the justifier of your existence as a person who denied God's right to rule over them.
You don't love me if you love Hinduism. If you love Hinduism, you love deception and your love to me is like the poison of a snake from Hell. God loves you, I love you, and that's why I'm telling you the truth. Your religion is taking you to Hell and God wants yo to be saved from it and so do I.
Refusing to believe Hell is real won't make it go away, refusing to believe God created nature and the universe and everything in it and everything outside of it if there is anything outside of it will not make God go away so you can be heir to his creation by right of existence. God Himself brought you into existence and you are trying to tell yourself you have the right to exist without punishment in death. I guess that's enough. I'm not going to go on arguing with you if you are going to continue denying the truth, denying that you deserve the eternal punishment of death and you deserve to be separated from God forever in Hell because you are guilty in God's sight and have no right to stand in His presence.
You are not God's child when you are a child of sinners. Your parents were sinners. You have to be born of God's Spirit to be His child, you have to receive Jesus Christ as your Savior so the Living God can by His Holy Spirit be in you a new life, making you a child of God. Until you are born again by the Spirit of God to be a child of God like the Son of God, Jesus, you are a child of Hell, and your father is the devil and you will be against God forever in Hell with the devil if you don't get saved from it's fire.
Good to see you finally said something clear in support of the fact that God loves anybody who says He does not love them. You trash your own argument when you say things implying that God's word is questionable. I hope you quit doing that....God will hold you accountable for saying His word is not reliable.
If God did not create Hell, what would He do with His creatures which had turned against Him? What good would God be if He allows evil to roam unpunished, corrupting and damaging everything it touches? Hell is to confine and forever stop evil. We all hate evil, don't we? Or do you prefer that evil continue forever, unpunished and unconfined? God will confine all evil in Hell because He is love and will protect His people from evil. The battle between good and evil will end when evil is forever purged from creation in prison of Hell where it belongs. God loves you and died for your sins to save you from that prison.
Why create creatures that would turn against him? To truly be the Alpha and Omega, he would have known when creating them what they would do.
Correct, He would have known and indeed He did; however, He would still rather that than the alternative because it would mean that His children made a choice. If He created human beings without free will then any love or admiration we showed Him would be vacuous. There would be no joy for Him as Our Father in knowing we were not doing it of our own volition and a relationship would be impossible to formulate.
What good is it that God created evil in the first place?
God did not create evil. In the same way that darkness is the absence of light, evil is fundamentally the absence of good.
So is one truly evil simply for not being able to believe in the Christian god?
Based on my second answer, the only true evil is the devil because he does not possess the capacity for goodness to any depth. Though some of their actions may be evil, human beings who do not believe in God are not inherently evil; to God they are more like lost children who He wants to return.
The sight of your name is an annoyance. I really hope you are saved, born of the Spirit of God with Christ Jesus living in you, and I really do hope we can meet in Heaven where all will be harmony and peace, but by the way you have been so antagonistic to the truth, I don't think you are saved. I think you need to be born again.
God created creatures He knew would turn against Him because He is love and He desired to have more creatures to love. God the Father loved and loves God the Son and God the Holy Spirit forever, and forever in eternity past before He created anything with a mind to choose it's own way. God knew some of His creatures would rebel against Him and He would have to prove His love by paying their price in death. He paid our price by becoming a man like us. He died in our place to save us from He paid to buy us back from the Hell we have earned. He created us for His own pleasure, to give us eternal life because He is good.
God did not create evil, He created beings with free will who chose to go against Him and brought on themselves His wrath. God created all beings to enjoy, not to fight with. Those who want to go on fighting against Him will lose everything He created them to enjoy. It's really not that complicated. God loves you and does not owe you any time. You owe Him for your time, and you have used your time to break His law. He loves you so He gives you more time hoping you will return to Him and admit that He is righteous and you have forfeited your rights by breaking His law. I hope you will stop arguing that He does not love you and start believing that He does love you and His love is best for you to know. You can know Him and trust Him, and believe He loves you now.
There is only one God. There is not a Christian God and a Muslim God and pagan God. God is God and does not change. Jesus Christ is God who proved God's love for you by dying in your place and paying for your sins with His own sinless blood. If He did not love you, He would not give you any more time trying to persuade you to trust Him to save you from Hell. If He did not love you, your life would be over now and you would have no way out of death. He conquered death to save you from Hell because He loves you that much.
We are evil because we have gone against God. If you will accept God's death in Jesus Christ as your death for your sins, He will give you His life when you believe on Him and receive Him as your personal Savior by asking God in the name of Jesus Christ to save you from Hell. God is trying to get through your thick skull to make you believe He loves you before you make the final choice of paying what he paid for you....if you make that choice final, you end up where all who reject His love end up, burning in the passion of your own desire to be your own god like Satan.
I am done. You are simply repeating the same thing over and over without ever addressing the issues with the concept of choice that I have mentioned. This debate is therefore pointless.
You are in rebellion against God. How can He show you His love when you say He does not love you? What do you want Him to do? bow down and worship you?
Why create creatures that would turn against him? To truly be the Alpha and Omega, he would have known when creating them what they would do.
..........Yes, God knows what you will do and He will hold you accountable for what you do. You are going against Him by your own choice. God created you to enjoy, not to argue with but you want to argue against Him.....and the only solid argument against His goodness you can know is to be in the fire of Hell forever. Then you can never again believe God is good, and you get what you want for yourself, you win the argument for yourself that way and you will forever say God is not good and you have proof for yourself to be convinced of your belief. Can't you see?
I guess that's a good enough reason for you to believe God does not love you. I hope you don't go on believing that forever. God loves you and so do I.
It is extraordinarily unlikely that I will ever start believing in that which does not exist. I also do not think you can truly love someone you have not even met, but thanks for the rather empty sentiment I suppose.
1) He loves you and gives you time in life. You don't have to believe He loves you. Time is running out. God will not try to persuade you forever that He loves you. He did all He could for you when He took on a body like yours and took your place in death so you do not have to be in that place forever. God loves you even though you have not yet met Him. You can meet Him in Jesus Christ who took your place in death because He loved you that much, even though you have been and have gone against Him in breaking His perfect law. He paid for everything you did so you don't have to pay in eternal death. He rose from the dead to justify you for eternal life and you can meet Him for real, personally, and know His love today. Tomorrow may be too late. You are making the choice of rejecting His love, trying to prove God does not love you. You really don't want the proof you are trying to convince yourself with. God does not want you to be separated from Him forever as you are now. He loves you and wants you to come to Him through Jesus Christ and be saved from Hell. You can go your own way away from Him if you want, but blaming Him when you get to where you are going will never get you out of your choice.
Ooops...forgot that I was itemizing God's terms for you to know His love. God loves you or He would not give you any more time now. After your time is gone, if you have rejected His love, it will be forever too late because you chose to take your own death after he paid for it Himself with His own blood. His blood testify against you when He offers it to secure your pardon if you will repent and believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and be saved.
Well I'm sorry you don't feel compelled to respond to God's love. The things I am saying here will be substantiated for you eventually, but you won't like it if you don't repent and believe on the Lord Jesus Christ. God loves you but He is not going to listen to you insult Him forever as you trample the blood of His Son under your feet. You will see Jesus as God, you will face Him...either before you leave this world as your Savior or after you leave as your Judge....after you finalize your death, you have made your final choice of rejecting God's love. I'm sorry you feel God does not love you. I hope you realize you are wrong before it's too late and He gives you what you are giving Him...rejection. Enjoy yourself while you can if that's the way you want it.
Does god love the people that he said you can make slaves out of?
Leviticus 25-44-46“As for the male and female slaves whom you may have, it is from the nations around you that you may acquire male and female slaves. You may also acquire them from among the aliens residing with you, and from their families that are with you, who have been born in your land; and they may be your property. You may keep them as a possession for your children after you, for them to inherit as property. These you may treat as slaves, but as for your fellow Israelites, no one shall rule over the other with harshness.”
Does god love the slaves he said you can beat within an inch of their life?
Exodus 21:20-21“When a slaveowner strikes a male or female slave with a rod and the slave dies immediately, the owner shall be punished. But if the slave survives a day or two, there is no punishment; for the slave is the owner’s property.”
Do god love the girls he said you can sell to men as slaves and or polygamous wives?
Exodus 21:7-11“If a man sells his daughter as a servant, she is not to go free as male servants do. If she does not please the master who has selected her for himself, he must let her be redeemed. He has no right to sell her to foreigners, because he has broken faith with her. If he selects her for his son, he must grant her the rights of a daughter. If he marries another woman, he must not deprive the first one of her food, clothing and marital rights. If he does not provide her with these three things, she is to go free, without any payment of money."
God loves you in spite of the fact that you keep trying to blame Him for every thing. You are rejecting Him to your own detriment.
You are a slave to your own sin, condemned by it to death and in danger of Hell if you will not believe God loves you and took your place in death to save you from Hell. If you will stop trying to justify yourself and start believing His love for you is real and the effects are all good for you, you can gladly seek God's forgiveness and accept His offer of pardon through His blood in Jesus Christ and you will be with Him in His resurrection with a new body like His glorified body free from all effects of sin forever.
So you're just going to dodge all my questions again. You've made it obvious that you're not actually here to debate, you're here to preach. I hope you realize that your attempt to proselytize here is going to be counterproductive if you just continue to repeat the same rhetoric over and over, dodge everyone's questions, and ban people. It just shows everyone that Christianity is indefensible. If anything, you're driving people away from Christianity. So, please keep doing what you're doing ;)
The fact that you will not believe God loves you does not mean I am dodging your questions and objections. Are you reading my posts? You are the one repeating the same rhetoric over and over and over, trying to prove God is not good because He allows suffering in the world. You are the one dodging God's love because you are trying to hide from God. You think He can't love you if He really sees all of the things you have done, thought, imagined and said, and you don't want to change your ways to allow yourself to do things you know He will disapprove of so you are trying to hide from Him and only clothing yourself with your own grave. God loves you and wants you to trust Him so you can be saved from Hell.
"You are the one repeating the same rhetoric over and over and over, trying to prove God is not good because He allows suffering in the world."
According to Christian theology he doesn't just allow suffering, he creates it. Christian theology states that god created all life on earth. That means he created all of the things I listed in my original argument.
"The fact that you will not believe God loves you does not mean I am dodging your questions and objections"
No, but the fact that you aren't answering any of my questions means you are dodging my questions, and the fact that you banned me and many other people shows you are dodging us and are unable to defend your position.
"The man who cannot listen to an argument which opposes his views either has a weak position or is a weak defender of it. No opinion that cannot stand discussion or criticism is worth holding. And it has been wisely said that the man who knows only half of any question is worse off than the man who knows nothing of it. He is not only one-sided but his partisanship soon turns him into an intolerant and a fanatic. In general it is true that nothing which cannot stand up under discussion or criticism is worth defending" - James E. Talmage
I answered you more than enough to know you will not listen to reason. There is no good reason to continue arguing with you when it's obvious that you don't want to hear the truth and will not believe it. I made the mistake of believing you were actually listening when you were only plotting your never-ending diatribe against God which only He can interrupt....and He will, like it or not.
I answered you more than enough to know you will not listen to reason. There is no good reason to continue arguing with you when it's obvious that you don't want to hear the truth and will not believe it
I can understand that you might feel better if nobody in the world believes Jesus is risen from the dead and He is God who died for us to save us from Hell, I can understand you might feel better if everybody dies without hope like you.........but I cannot understand why you think your life is defensible when you are losing it. God loves you and is trying to save your life so you don't lose it forever in eternal death in Hell. If saying that drives you away from God, then He has hardened your heart because you love your heart to be hard against Him because you want your sin more than you want His love. That's your choice and God lets you have it because He loves you. It's not His or my fault if you reject His love. It's your own fault. Trying to blame me, God, or anybody else for your choice will not get you excused from death or from Hell. You can believe God loves you now, but if this is your last chance to believe it and you end up in Hell you will never again be able to believe He loves you because there will be nothing good for you to experience from Him. I hope you are still with us here because I believe you are still lost and dying if not in Hell already.
Read your argument but replace the word "God" with "Thor". Then you'll understand just how unconvincing it is to someone who doesn't believe in your god.
You are not asking questions, you are making accusations against God and God is not bowing down to allow you out of death. You're always a pest to me, you don't want to listen, you just want to spout off your hatred against God, and I don't want to argue with you when you are only drowning yourself in your sin.
You are not asking honest questions, you are making accusations and allegations based on false hypothesis. You need to start with the assumption that God is always good and then go back and read the Bible again and see if you can figure out for yourself why God gave those rules for Israel as He commanded them, guided them, and helped them to conquer the Promised Land.....why He drove out the inhabitants of that land and gave it to Israel, and why Israel failed to trust and obey God and eventually fell into captivity and became subjects to nations who conquered them. You are not understanding the Bible and not understanding God.
I am not your Sunday School teacher, but you sure need some lessons. Apparently you have decided that God's word is not God's word, and God is not good. All you are doing is separating yourself from God and you can't blame God is He leaves you in Hell forever.
God loves you and wants to reason with you so you can be pardoned and not suffer the penalty you deserve for sinning against Him, He does not want you to burn in Hell. That is why He became a man and died in your place, to pay for your sins against God with His blood, and forgive you in His resurrection if you will believe on Him and call on God in His name to save you from Hell.
You are the one dodging the issue...the issue is that you have sinned against God and He loves you still and wants you to come to repentance so you can be saved before you finalize your death as a sinner and it's too late.
This is what it looks like when someone dodges the issue. Your Christian God condones slavery in the Bible and yet according to you still loves the people whose enslavement he condones. This has nothing to do with whether he loves the person you are debating, rendering your post non-responsive. Your failure to address a valid counterpoint is effectively a concession either that God does not love everyone or that God's conception is love is a gross distortion upon what we understand love to be.
You are the one dodging the issue here. You are dying and need to be saved and God loves you so much that He died in your place to save you from your sins, your death, and the Hell you deserve. He paid the price for you because He loves you and you think you are smart and strong by saying "I don't care about that because I don't believe it."
The issues is your sin which is taking you down in death and God's love for you which is giving you time to reason with Him and accept Jesus Christ as your Savior. There is no other way to be saved except by God Himself and you can know Him now through Jesus Christ
God loves you even though you are repeatedly insulting Him, repeated trampling His blood under your feet after He took your place in death by being crucified. He did not deserve our death, we do. He took our death because we cannot handle it, only God can handle it and He conquered it for you because He loves you and wants you to trust Him so you can be saved from Hell.
The only one between you and God who has gross distortions is you, and somehow in your distortions you think you are justified for life and don't need to be saved, don't need God's love. It's only His mercy for you in love that keeps you out of Hell now. Are you still with us here, or did God's appointed time for you to leave us come and go while I was away?
This is what is looks like when a guy who believes in meaninglessness tries to enter a discussion where objective truth must be included......the fool gets kicked out of the room for talking to much when he has nothing to talk about.
The debate is God loves YOU. This is about YOU, not about other people. This slavery stuff is off topic. This issue is not slavery or whether or not God loves somebody who serves a master as a slave. The slavery issue is being used as a smokescreen behind which the smoker is hiding his or her true feelings. The smoker is angry at God and trying to slander God...and what good it is to believe you are proving God does not love you is beyond me. The slavery argument is an atheist argument which will not listen to reason. God is always justified in anything He does or does not do, always right, and always good. The slavery argument being used here is a never ending because it is built on the false hypothesis that God is not good. It's a devil's argument attempting to prove that God has no right to leave any creature confined in prison of Hell forever. It's dodging the issue of God's love by implying God is not good and it is not worthy of discussion in this debate and that is why I banned it all.
Have you read the Bible? You are taking little pieces out of context and using them as justification for your belief that you are as good as God or better, I guess.
Is that it? You think that you are as good as God whether He is real or not? That's what happens in twisted reasoning because God gave us the power of reason and the freedom to twist logic, even allowing you to speak evil against Him by insisting He is not there and does not love you.
Yes, I have read the Bible. I was a very devout Christian for 25 years.
"You are taking little pieces out of context."
Prove it. Show how the context changes the meaning. I included links to all the verses so you could view the context. Just click the links, then click the icon with a bunch of horizontal lines right above the bible version drop-down list to see the verse in context.
You won't accept proof that God loves you no matter what God does, other than for God to allow you to be God and He won't do that so you are on your own.
Translation: "I was wrong about LittleMisfit taking those verses out of context, but I can't admit that to him so I will once again ignore what he said and resort to attacking his character."
Translation: Misfish is a character who thinks it has the right to exist outside of Hell due to the fact it's not burning in the fire now...assuming the fish is still with us.
You are sidetracking from the point of the debate with an issue which you are indeed taking out of context. The context is Israel after God brought them out of Egypt and prepared them to enter the promised land by giving them His law before driving out the inhabitants of the land.
You are taking one issue, slavery, ignoring the Biblical context and interpreting the Bible teaching according to your petty hatred against God. It was God's law and God's word, not Moses'. For somebody who claims to have read the Bible and to have been a devout Christian for a long time, you seem to me to be pretty ignorant of who the author of the Bible is (God) as well as understanding the Bible. There were specific reasons for God displacing and defeating the peoples whose land He gave to Israel, and His law regarding servants and masters was good and was not the perversions of slavery you are trying to turn it into.
I chose to ignore your sidetracking because you are avoiding the personal issue of God's love...what God failed to do for you personally or what God did to you....so you feel He does not love you personally.
As for your claim of being a devout Christian, you may have been religious but you were never a Christian or you could not talk the way you do against God and you could not try to twist and pervert His word the way you do.
Whatever happened to you so that you feel so unlovable that God can't love you...I don't know. I do know you are not being honest about it.
Does god love the people that he said you can make slaves out of?
Leviticus 25-44-46 “As for the male and female slaves whom you may have, it is from the nations around you that you may acquire male and female slaves. You may also acquire them from among the aliens residing with you, and from their families that are with you, who have been born in your land; and they may be your property. You may keep them as a possession for your children after you, for them to inherit as property. These you may treat as slaves, but as for your fellow Israelites, no one shall rule over the other with harshness.”
Yes. The slavery documented here is unlike the slavery you may be thinking of which occurred just a few centuries earlier. At this point slavery was a means of payment when individuals were in debt and had no other wherewithal. Therefore, by volunteering themselves for such service they were putting themselves forward to be acquired by those seeking it. It was not an advocation but a regulation of this practice and as such did not bear the savage connotation it does today (in reference to the Western form).
Does god love the slaves he said you can beat within an inch of their life?
Exodus 21:20-21 “When a slaveowner strikes a male or female slave with a rod and the slave dies immediately, the owner shall be punished. But if the slave survives a day or two, there is no punishment; for the slave is the owner’s property.”
Yes. This does not necessarily translate to beating someone within an inch of their life. Sometimes one can be struck once and a single blow could incur death. However, in the case of a beating it was a means of determining intent: if the severity was so pronounced that this was the result then accountability could be attributed to the owner and he would face charges for murder (which would ordinarily be instantaneous). However, if the slave did survive then it would be classified as manslaughter as not only may their survival indicate that the owner must not have intended murder, but other factors may have precipitated eventual death that he could not be held accountable for.
Do god love the girls he said you can sell to men as slaves and or polygamous wives?
Exodus 21:7-11 “If a man sells his daughter as a servant, she is not to go free as male servants do. If she does not please the master who has selected her for himself, he must let her be redeemed. He has no right to sell her to foreigners, because he has broken faith with her. If he selects her for his son, he must grant her the rights of a daughter. If he marries another woman, he must not deprive the first one of her food, clothing and marital rights. If he does not provide her with these three things, she is to go free, without any payment of money."
Yes. This again reverts back to the definition of slavery by Biblical standards. By granting her the rights of a daughter this would suggest consideration as part of the family. Secondly, polygamous marriage was not something God instituted. His design for marriage has always been monogamy but in light of the free will He had accorded human beings He could not control the way they were constructing their culture; that would otherwise be a retraction of that free will. The very least He could do was regulate that construction. Man had organised society in such a way that women had very little standing independent of a man, and if unmarried were more liable to abuse from strangers. Therefore, marriage would provide that security and protection, the condition being that there was equal treatment and rights amongst them.
This is going to be long, but since I hear the same apologetic over and over again I want to be thorough. This message will give you an overview of slavery in the Bible. I will respond to your arguments in a separate post.
There are two different types of servitude described in the Bible, voluntary servitude to pay off debt and chattel slavery, which is equivalent to modern day slavery. Leviticus chapter 25 describes both. It begins with, “The LORD spoke to Moses on Mount Sinai, saying:…” So, if we are to believe the text, these are direct quotes from God.
VOLUNTARY SERVITUDE
Starting at verse 39 he describes voluntary servitude, which only applies to Israelites.
Leviticus 25:39-43 “If any who are dependent on you become so impoverished that they sell themselves to you, you shall NOT make them serve as slaves. They shall remain with you as hired or bound laborers. They shall serve with you until the year of the jubilee. Then they and their children with them shall be free from your authority; they shall go back to their own family and return to their ancestral property. For they are my servants, whom I brought out of the land of Egypt; they shall not be sold as slaves are sold. You shall not rule over them with harshness, but shall fear your God.”
Notice how he makes it very clear that they are not to be treated like slaves or ruled over harshly. Why would he need to say that if slaves aren't treated harshly like apologists often claim?
CHATTEL SLAVERY
In verses 44-46 god talks about chattel slavery. I applies to non-Israelites and the person is treated as property. These people are slaves for life and cannot buy their freedom. God doesn’t say not to treat these slaves harshly and later on says you can beat them with a rod.
Leviticus 25-44-46 “As for the male and female slaves whom you may have, it is from the nations around you that you may acquire male and female slaves. You may also acquire them from among the aliens residing with you, and from their families that are with you, who have been born in your land; and they may be your property. You may keep them as a possession for your children after you, for them to inherit as property. These you may treat as slaves, but as for your fellow Israelites, no one shall rule over the other with harshness.”
That last verse is a clear indicator that slaves are treated harshly, otherwise there would be no reason to include the second half of the verse.
Verses 47-55 describes how if an Israelite falls on hard times and sells themself as a servant to a non-Israelite, the servant has the option of buying their freedom. No such option is available to non-Israelites or women.
Deut 24:7 "If someone is caught kidnapping a fellow Israelite and treating or selling them as a slave, the kidnapper must die."
This shows us two things about slaves. First, they are kidnapped, it's not voluntary. Second, treating an Israelite like a slave is such a horrible thing that the penalty is death. Yet as we've already seen, god is okay with slavery as long as it is done to non-Israelites.
RULES FOR HEBREW/ISRAELITE SERVANTS
Now let’s jump to Exodus 21 where god outlines some rules for keeping servants and tells people how they can exploit a loophole in his rules to force someone into a lifetime of servitude.
Exodus 21:1-6 “If you buy a Hebrew servant, he is to serve you for six years. But in the seventh year, he shall go free, without paying anything. If he comes alone, he is to go free alone; but if he has a wife when he comes, she is to go with him. If his master gives him a wife and she bears him sons or daughters, the woman and her children shall belong to her master, and only the man shall go free. But if the servant declares, ‘I love my master and my wife and children and do not want to go free,’ then his master must take him before the judges. He shall take him to the door or the doorpost and pierce his ear with an awl. Then he will be his servant for life."
So here we have god saying that Hebrew servants are to be set free after 7 years. However, if you give your servant a wife and they have kids, you can hold the wife and kids hostage in order to get the servant to serve for a lifetime. Also note that the women and children are never set free, unlike male servants who can leave after seven years.
SLAVES ARE WORTH LESS THAN FREE PEOPLE
Continuing on to verses 28-32 god says if someone has a bull that frequently gores people and the owner doesn't keep the bull penned up, if the bull kills someone both the bull and the owner are to be put to death. However, if the person that got killed was just a slave the owner only has to pay 30 shekels. Remember, these things are supposedly direct quotes from god, so god clearly doesn't think people are equal.
SLAVERY IN THE NEW TESTAMENT
Colossians 3:22 “Slaves, obey your earthly masters in everything, not only while being watched and in order to please them, but wholeheartedly, fearing the Lord.”
Titus 2:9 “Tell slaves to be submissive to their masters and to give satisfaction in every respect; they are not to talk back.”
CONCLUSION
The god described in the Bible clearly doesn’t object to slavery. He even defines the rules for it. So as I see it we are left with two possible conclusions.
1. God condones slavery and is therefore not benevolent.
2. The Bible was written by men who claimed god said those things, but god never really said those things or he just doesn’t exist.
APOLOGETICS
The following verses are often cited by apologists as proof that god is against slavery.
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Exodus 21:16 “Anyone who kidnaps someone is to be put to death, whether the victim has been sold or is still in the kidnapper’s possession.”
I believe this verse is only referring to the kidnapping of Israelites. Why do I think that?
1. The same rule is restated in Deut 24:7 but this time with added clarification. “If a man is caught kidnapping any of his countrymen of the sons of Israel, and he deals with him violently or sells him, then that thief shall die." If it's wrong to kidnap anyone, why would he add "any of his countrymen of the sons of Israel" to it. There would be no need to include that part.
2. Moses tells god's followers to enslave all the non-Israelites cities in the area. Deuteronomy 20:10-15.
3. It contradicts many of the verses we talked about earlier, but that contradiction is resolved if this verse only applies to Israelites.
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Eph 6:9 "And masters, treat your slaves in the same way. Do not threaten them, since you know that he who is both their Master and yours is in heaven, and there is no favouritism with him."
Since god has already stated there is no punishment for beating your slaves with a rod, either Jesus is not god, god changed his mind, or this is only referring to Israelite slaves.
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Col 4:1 "Masters, provide your slaves with what is right and fair, because you know that you also have a Master in heaven."
What is right and fair is to not be a slave!
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Deut 23:15-16 “You shall not hand over to his master a slave who has escaped from his master to you. He shall live with you in your midst, in the place which he shall choose in one of your towns where it pleases him; you shall not mistreat him."
That passage is talking about slaves from other nations, not slaves from within their own nation, as indicated by the second verse. Remember, god already said, "you may acquire male and female slaves." So, either god was lying when he said that, or this verse only applies to slaves fleeing foreign nations. It's also possible that it is talking about Israelite who were enslaved by foreign nations, because there are some indicators throughout the chapter that he is speaking about how Israelites should treat each other, such as "the daughters of Israel", "your countrymen" and "your neighbor." However, that part is not crystal clear.
I appreciate the thoroughness of your post and will address each point in turn (so my response will also be of considerable length):
Notice how he makes it very clear that they are not to be treated like slaves or ruled over harshly. Why would he need to say that if slaves aren't treated harshly like apologists often claim?
Yes. The Israelites had just come out of slavery in Egypt and were subjected to harsh treatment. It would not make sense for God to go to such lengths to bring them out from tyrannical Egyptian rule for them to be subjected to it again simply in a different land.
In verses 44-46 god talks about chattel slavery. It applies to non-Israelites and the person is treated as property. These people are slaves for life and cannot buy their freedom. God doesn’t say not to treat these slaves harshly and later on says you can beat them with a rod.
Yes He does and No He does not. If somebody was so impoverished as to put themselves up to be bought as a worker (slave) then they would have no other means of buying their freedom. Therefore, they would remain with the hiring household for life. The prohibition of harsh treatment also applies to them: the term ‘alien’ already indicates that they are of foreign heritage, however they were born in Israel.
The preceding verses 39-43 apply exclusively to the natives by firstly mentioning that they were rescued from Egypt and secondly that they were not be to be classified as ‘slaves’. Therefore, the succeeding verses you’ve highlighted that describes slaves would pertain to those outside of that.
Verses 47-55 describes how if an Israelite falls on hard times and sells themself as a servant to a non-Israelite, the servant has the option of buying their freedom. No such option is available to non-Israelites or women.
This would be to do with the Israelites standing with God [elaboration further down].
Deut 24:7 "If someone is caught kidnapping a fellow Israelite and treating or selling them as a slave, the kidnapper must die."
This shows us two things about slaves. First, they are kidnapped, it's not voluntary.
No, if anything it shows us that slavery is meant to be voluntary because if it were not, then there would be no penalty attached for kidnapping one.
Second, treating an Israelite like a slave is such a horrible thing that the penalty is death. Yet as we've already seen, god is okay with slavery as long as it is done to non-Israelites.
God had already established a covenant with Abraham which concerned promised land, promised descendants and promised redemption. If anything this is evidence that God does not break His word because by delivering the Israelites from slavery and keeping them from it He was honouring the covenant He made. God knew the plans He had for the world and the Israelites played a huge part in that by being His chosen people; they would not have been able to fulfill their status as a great nation by continuing to be under slavery, hence why He released them from it.
Now let’s jump to Exodus 21 where god outlines some rules for keeping servants and tells people how they can exploit a loophole in his rules to force someone into a lifetime of servitude.
There are no “loopholes” in the Bible as you call them. Furthermore, if you are saying God outlines methods of exploiting His rules then that is calling Him dishonest which would be a false claim. Such behaviour is at odds with His purity.
Exodus 21:1-6 “If you buy a Hebrew servant, he is to serve you for six years. But in the seventh year, he shall go free, without paying anything. If he comes alone, he is to go free alone; but if he has a wife when he comes, she is to go with him. If his master gives him a wife and she bears him sons or daughters, the woman and her children shall belong to her master, and only the man shall go free. But if the servant declares, ‘I love my master and my wife and children and do not want to go free,’ then his master must take him before the judges. He shall take him to the door or the doorpost and pierce his ear with an awl. Then he will be his servant for life."
So here we have god saying that Hebrew servants are to be set free after 7 years. However, if you give your servant a wife and they have kids, you can hold the wife and kids hostage in order to get the servant to serve for a lifetime. Also note that the women and children are never set free, unlike male servants who can leave after seven years.
You’ve misunderstood this greatly. All it is saying is that if a servant declares his love for his family then he should not be separated from them. It is about keeping a loving family together, not about holding the women and children hostage. Secondly two, the master would be entitled to have some right over the servant’s family if he provided them for him in the first place; as the first part of the text says, if the servant already had a wife upon entering the master’s service they were free to leave together.
Continuing on to verses 28-32 god says if someone has a bull that frequently gores people and the owner doesn't keep the bull penned up, if the bull kills someone both the bull and the owner are to be put to death. However, if the person that got killed was just a slave the owner only has to pay 30 shekels. Remember, these things are supposedly direct quotes from god, so god clearly doesn't think people are equal.
Again no; the verses read that if a bull gores a slave not only must the owner pay 30 shekels but the bull is to be stoned to death just as with anyone else. The owner is not held responsible for the death of a man or a woman unless the bull’s violent behaviour is habitual. The penalty is the same, there is no inequality documented here.
The god described in the Bible clearly doesn’t object to slavery. He even defines the rules for it. So as I see it we are left with two possible conclusions.
1. God condones slavery and is therefore not benevolent.
2. The Bible was written by men who claimed god said those things, but god never really said those things or he just doesn’t exist.
Neither of those conclusions stand. Firstly, God allowing the practice of slavery does not equate to non-benevolence. As I had mentioned prior, as human beings had constructed their culture in this way God defined the rules as a means of regulating the practice to ensure the rights of everyone were protected. If human beings abused those rights then that was a reflection on their lack of benevolence, not God’s. Secondly, slavery at this time was not inherently oppressive: it was a purely economic arrangement, not the entire subjugation of a race as the Western world practiced centuries later, whereby people were kidnapped and separated from their families regardless of how devoted they were. The Bible specifically condemns this method of acquirement as your provided verses evidence.
The following verses are often cited by apologists as proof that god is against slavery.
You mean that God is against slavery as we understand it in modern society.
Exodus 21:16 “Anyone who kidnaps someone is to be put to death, whether the victim has been sold or is still in the kidnapper’s possession.”
I believe this verse is only referring to the kidnapping of Israelites. Why do I think that?
That verse applies to anyone, Israelite or otherwise, ergo I have no idea why you think otherwise.
1. The same rule is restated in Deut 24:7 but this time with added clarification. “If a man is caught kidnapping any of his countrymen of the sons of Israel, and he deals with him violently or sells him, then that thief shall die." If it's wrong to kidnap anyone, why would he add "any of his countrymen of the sons of Israel" to it. There would be no need to include that part.
This is in regard to the notion of Israelites being slaves as opposed to sole focus on the kidnapping aspect. As your other verses read, kidnapping was prohibited regardless of who it was. Having been delivered out of slavery under Egyptian hands it was not their portion to return to it.
2. Moses tells god's followers to enslave all the non-Israelites cities in the area. Deuteronomy 20:10-15.
Not before peace negotiations are issued. Even then this gives no indication that they will suffer mistreatment, particularly if God’s instructions were heeded.
3. It contradicts many of the verses we talked about earlier, but that contradiction is resolved if this verse only applies to Israelites.
The contradiction is not resolved because it was never there in the first instance.
Eph 6:9 "And masters, treat your slaves in the same way. Do not threaten them, since you know that he who is both their Master and yours is in heaven, and there is no favouritism with him."
Since god has already stated there is no punishment for beating your slaves with a rod, either Jesus is not god, god changed his mind, or this is only referring to Israelite slaves.
A master qualifies to exert certain rights over their slave; physical discipline would come under this. However, physical discipline does not equate to complete maltreatment and this is evidently what this verse is referring to. Therefore, your inference is incorrect.
Col 4:1 "Masters, provide your slaves with what is right and fair, because you know that you also have a Master in heaven."
What is right and fair is to not be a slave!
That is what is right and fair, however, as human beings we do not always concern ourselves with that and so this is when God will step in.
Deut 23:15-16 “You shall not hand over to his master a slave who has escaped from his master to you. He shall live with you in your midst, in the place which he shall choose in one of your towns where it pleases him; you shall not mistreat him."
That passage is talking about slaves from other nations, not slaves from within their own nation, as indicated by the second verse. Remember, god already said, "you may acquire male and female slaves." So, either god was lying when he said that, or this verse only applies to slaves fleeing foreign nations.
Yes, precisely the latter. To flee is to escape.
It's also possible that it is talking about Israelite who were enslaved by foreign nations, because there are some indicators throughout the chapter that he is speaking about how Israelites should treat each other, such as "the daughters of Israel", "your countrymen" and "your neighbor." However, that part is not crystal clear.
Enough of this. Foxglove gave you way more of an answer than you deserve on this subject, you could read the Bible for yourself and know God personally yourself rather than pick bits and take them out of context and reject anybody who does real work to explain the Bible when you are copy and pasting college internet atheistic propaganda which will not listen to reasoning. You are banned.
This is not a debate about slavery or the topic of slavery in the Bible. If God's allowance of servitude in the Bible, void of your understanding of the Bible, if your reason for believing you proved God cannot love you, fine. Who are you trying to fool? You are using the slavery issue as a smokescreen for your hatred of God. Somehow you feel he mistreated you or neglected your poor little feelings so you hate Him. He sill loves you. I'm tired of your babblings. God has more patience than me.
I have read it. If you think the Bible doesn't approve of slavery, then apparently you haven't read it.
"rather than pick bits and take them out of context and reject anybody who does real work to explain the Bible when you are copy and pasting college internet atheistic propaganda which will not listen to reasoning."
I'm not copying and pasting anyones arguments by my own from previous debates. None of the verses I've quoted are taken out of context and I challenge you to prove me wrong. If you can prove that I've taken out of context I will retract my statements and offer you a formal apology.
This is not a debate about slavery or the topic of slavery in the Bible.
It's a debate about whether god loves us or not and the fact that he approves of slavery is evidence that he doesn't. So, if you're just going to ban everyone that presents evidence that opposes your position, then you shouldn't be on a debate site, you should be on TellMeHowRightIAm.com.
You are using the slavery issue as a smokescreen for your hatred of God.
How can I hate something I don't even believe exists?
Somehow you feel he mistreated you or neglected your poor little feelings so you hate Him.
I don't feel mistreated or neglected. I have a great life. How about you actually start addressing people's arguments instead of attacking strawmen.
And now you have banned him too. How absurd. It is woeful that you cannot even understand just how unreasonable your own behaviour is. Then again perhaps this accounts for your total inability to understand others.....or at least try to.
If that's really the case then we may as well throw out the rest of gods rules. Most people have sex before marriage, all people lie, millions of people take the lords name in vain, billions of people worship other gods, etc. So I guess all those things are allowed now for the same reason god allowed slavery, right? Besides, you haven't provided any evidence to support your claim. It's just a baseless assertion. Show me some verses where god says the only reason he allowed slavery is because of the hardness of their hearts.
“Therefore God gave them up in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, to the dishonoring of their bodies among themselves, because they exchanged the truth about God for a lie and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever” [Romans 1: 24-25]
“They are darkened in their understanding, alienated from the life of God because of the ignorance that is in them, due to their hardness of heart” [Ephesians 4:18]
No. Just because there has been deviation from His rules does not mean we should continue along that route. Christ still upheld His Father’s commandments when He came in spite of the presence of behaviour contrary to them and the same applies to modern society.
Neither of those verses supports the idea that slavery, or any other sin for that matter, is okay just because people won't accept anything different. I think you're misinterpreting the phrase "god gave them up". Here is a page that explains it. If god truly was against slavery he would have said something about it being a sin, but not only does he not say that, but he explicitly tells people that they can have them. He doesn't say, "Although enslaving people is a sin that I strongly disapprove of, I will allow you to have them anyway because you're too stubborn to listen to me." Instead god says, "you may acquire male and female slaves." They can be your "property" and "a possession". Selling your daughters into slavery is okay, and they should never be set free, unlike male slaves. So, not only is god pro-slavery, he is sexist.
Neither of those verses supports the idea that slavery, or any other sin for that matter, is okay just because people won't accept anything different. I think you're misinterpreting the phrase "god gave them up". Here is a page that explains it.
No need, the verses are self-evident. Though the first does not pertain to slavery as such it does pertain to sexual impurity (“dishonouring their bodies”) and misdirected worship. The second verse actually pertains to the new lifestyle one most adopt when they become a Christian which concerns eschewing the ways of the world whom are without God and consequently do not use His standards to regulate their behaviour. It is about changing yourself as you take on Christ’s identity.
If god truly was against slavery he would have said something about it being a sin, but not only does he not say that, but he explicitly tells people that they can have them. He doesn't say, "Although enslaving people is a sin that I strongly disapprove of, I will allow you to have them anyway because you're too stubborn to listen to me." Instead god says, "you may acquire male and female slaves." They can be your "property" and "a possession". Selling your daughters into slavery is okay, and they should never be set free, unlike male slaves. So, not only is god pro-slavery, he is sexist.
It all reverts back to the assignment of free will to human beings. It therefore meant that it was ultimately up to human beings how they constructed their existence on Earth. This construction happened to involve the establishment of a social hierarchy amongst human beings themselves when the only hierarchy God ever intended for human beings was in relation to the whole of Creation (“having dominion over it”). As we know, the basis of such a hierarchy would be labour and determine the rich and the poor. Certain occupations were accorded on account of this and slavery happened to be the domain of the poor. It was not God’s ideal for this to happen, but He would allow it because of the benefit it would bring that individual under the circumstances; therefore this in itself would not be classified as a sin. What God cannot abide however, is injustice, hence why He would introduce rules to ensure that in spite of the framework everyone would be protected and would at least be able to enjoy a pleasant existence.
Your attribution of sexism to God also does not hold; as I may also have mentioned before, women did not have the same authority as men in controlling society’s operation. A woman would fare far better if she were released with her husband than on her own (particularly in being a slave) which is why they were in need of greater protection than males. Under Mosaic Law, both male and female slaves had rights. Under other Laws (and Western rule centuries later), both male and female slaves had no rights whatsoever. The two are incomparable.
try finding the passage talking about a person who commits sin being a slave to sin. That is the slavery you need to be concerned about. It's the enslavement that is taking you down in death to Hell and you need to be saved, you need to be set free, you need to be delivered from death into life everlasting.
I could tell you where the passage is, but you claim to have read the Bible and I think you missed some things and you need to read it some more.....you quoted "God gave the over...."....the passage about being a slave to sin is beyond that chapter in Romans. Keep reading, and use the King James Bible only...other versions have changes that obscure God's word, His teaching. If you are using the Duay (spell check) Catholic Bible, apart from the Apocrypha it is close enough to the King James Bible to be acceptable for use in discussion.
try finding the passage talking about a person who commits sin being a slave to sin. That is the slavery you need to be concerned about. It's the enslavement that is taking you down in death to Hell and you need to be saved, you need to be set free, you need to be delivered from death into life everlasting.
I could tell you where the passage is, but you claim to have read the Bible and I think you missed some things and you need to read it some more.....you quoted "God gave the over...."....the passage about being a slave to sin is beyond that chapter in Romans. Keep reading, and use the King James Bible only...other versions have changes that obscure God's word, His teaching. If you are using the Duay (spell check) Catholic Bible, apart from the Apocrypha it is close enough to the King James Bible to be acceptable for use in discussion.
Your whole old testament slavery argument is an argument of ignorance, not looking at the whole picture. The law in Exodus was given after God brought Israel out of Egypt and was preparing them to inherit the promised land and drive out, conquer, and/or destroy those inhabitants because of their evils for which God was judging them. God gave rules for servant/master relations which He knew were going to come as Israel took the land God promised them away from the inhabitants He was judging against.
It was not the same things as modern slavery if modern slavers tried to justify themselves by it or not. God is always good and trying to say that because He allowed for master/servant contracts or forced servitude He is not good is a mistake that will land you in Hell trying to justify your own existence as a slave to your own sin.
You threw out God's rules a long time ago. You broke His law a long time ago, and you are trying to say everybody else did it so it's ok for you to do it. You sit there outside of Hell because God loves you so much He gives you time when you despise His rule, and you think His love will always hold His wrath back from you?
"you are trying to say everybody else did it so it's ok for you to do it."
No, I'm not saying that. I'm trying to point out the problem with Foxgloves response by showing her that if we apply the logic she is applying to slavery to other situations, then we would have to throw out all the other commandments that people break on a regular basis too.
Not so, in light of what I said about slavery hitherto. The sins were still very clearly defined in the Bible and punishment was issued accordingly. Slavery no longer forms an integral part of the societies you and I live in so those rules cannot apply; yet the elements already established as sin such sexual immorality, lying, stealing, murder, taking the Lord’s name in vain etc. have not dissipated as the generations have gone on and must still be upheld because God does not make any allowance for them.
P.S. Apologies for your altogether unnecessary ban, Little Misfit. As you may be able to see I have responded to your other posts; if you still care to respond please feel free to challenge me to a debate where we may transfer and continue our discussion without undue interruption.
That's all you want, is to throw out all of God's rules. You don't want your Creator to be your King, you don't want Him to tell you what you can or cannot do, you want to be your own king and ruler and God is giving you want you want and death is what you deserve as you try to kill God and make Him void...you will end up void in the fire of Hell, and it's Justice. Justice is good. I know you hate it, but that's your own problem.
No he don't love us after all the tragic torture that has been done in the world, neither do I believie in him I think he's just an encouraging excuse which tricks people.
So if God would immediately fix everything you think is wrong with the world, then you would believe He loves you? Part of the problem with that idea is that God would have to put you in Hell to confine your evils which flow from your sinful heart. Your bitterness is obvious, it belongs in Hell and God is giving you time. You should be thankful to God for His mercy in giving you time, but you keep on heaping His wrath on you accusing Him of not caring and He will run out of patience with you. Why is that not logical? God loves you even though you act like His enemy. He wants you to be saved and know Him personally, to have everlasting life.
This debate is an invitation for people to explain why they believe God does not love them, and a challenge for me to convince them that He does indeed love them.
Your debate question assumes that your God exists.
I do not believe in your God or any God/creator of the universe. From that standpoint, it is not rationally possible for me to believe I am loved by any God.
Before convincing me the your God loves me, can you first cause me to believe that your God actually exists? -------– NO
This fact narrows the scope of your debaters to only those who believe your God exists. Ain't that like a straw man er sumthin?
You are the straw man here, pretending like you have something to talk about. You have nothing but death, so you really have nothing to talk about in this discussion. You are not listening, so you are banned.
Well at least you admit that you have nothing to say in this debate. The only straw man in this debate is a person who says there is no God and then thinks they have something to substantiate their belief that they cannot be loved by God. You have nothing to debate with here, do you? If you don't want to believe God loves you, fine. In this debate, you have nothing to say if you cannot explain why you believe God does not love you. Simply saying you believe there is no God ends your debating for yourself. God loves you so He allows you to have your own way if you think it's worth it.
One time I had this debate with an honest person who believed God did not love Him because God did not allow Him to have in marriage the woman He loved before she suddenly and unexpectedly fell to a fast and painful bout with cancer. Insisting there is no God as your reason for believing you are not loved by God is not being honest. The truth is that you think you are better than God and could do a better job of being God if you really were God. That's just the way atheists think, it's natural.
I'm not going do debate "God exists" VS "God does not exist" because my opponent in such a debate has nothing to support his argument other than the fact that He believes there is no God.
I won't run that rabbit trail. If you don't want to believe God loves you, don't believe it. I'm sorry you feel that way.
I'm not going do debate "God exists" VS "God does not exist" because my opponent in such a debate has nothing to support his argument other than the fact that He believes there is no God.
Yeah that's kinda my point. There is zero proof on either side of that argument. So you go ahead anyway and want to debate as though you know your God is real. Just say'in you assume too much.
If you want to believe in your God ------ Cool, do that, but don't assume everyone else does, on acounta some of us don't.
You assume that you have the right to exist outside of Hell. Are you sure you are not assuming too much? If you don't want to hear about it from me, don't come to argue with me. You have nothing to talk about in rejecting God, so if you don't want to know His love for you, then don't bother trying to argue against Him with me. You really have nothing to say in the mater.
You have nothing to talk about. I know God loves me and I know He loves you and I know the proof...which apparently you are unable to see. Because of what I know, I have a lot to talk about. Because of your insistence that there is nothing to talk about, you really have nothing to talk about. That is why you avoid explaining why you feel unloved by God by saying there is no God. So it's over for you, there is nothing for you if that's the way you want it.
You are the one who is assuming too much. You are assuming that your existence separated from God is justified without the fire of Hell. There is volumes of history, lifetimes of testimony, and the whole creation including your ability to use God's air which testifies of His love and mercy for you. On your negating side, the only proof of anything you have is your own death, and you think it proves there is no God? All you are doing is negating your own hope of knowing God's love, negating your own life, and propelling yourself away from God into finality of death in Hell forever.
You are assuming I am wrong and there is no Hell and no God to care what you say, think, or do.
You are not JUST saying anything...you are not just at all.
I want you to know God's love, but you won't I guess......that's your choice. I'm sorry I can't get through to you.
You are the zombie, walking around dying. Jesus is the everliving God who created you and took your place in death. He's smarter, stronger, and better than you if you like it or not. He loves you and you are doing everything you can to smear His name and insult Him. Who can you blame if you wake up in Hell?
No, your actions clearly show that you despise Him. God love you if you love Him or not. He proved His love for you by taking your place in death, then rising from the grave with His nail pierced hands outstretched for you offering you pardon, forgiveness, deliverance from. Just because you think the world is supposed to be Burger King where you can have it all your way and God won't let you have it does not mean He does not love you, it only means you are spoiled rotten by His mercy which is keeping you out of Hell now.
can you argue anything without relying on "god's love"?
He proved His love for you by taking your place in death
what meaning does 3 days of not-really-death hold for a god? why is "taking our place in death" meaningful if he wants us to go to heaven?
Just because you think the world is supposed to be Burger King where you can have it all your way and God won't let you have it does not mean He does not love you, it only means you are spoiled rotten by His mercy which is keeping you out of Hell now.
say that to those in despair, see what you get out of them.
just a personal question: for what purpose do you believe our time on earth is for?
Are you serious? From all you've said before, you don't want the answer but I'll try one more time because you need it, you need to know God loves you and has a special purpose for you because you are you and God loves you.
We are not worthy of living forever in Heaven. That's why we are dying on earth, sinners. It's justice. God created us for eternal life, we sinned against Him, we get the death penalty and it's eternal because our sins never go away, our history remains with us.....unless...
God Himself became a man and paid our price, took our wrongs on Himself and paid the price, and death could not hold Him in the ground because He is God, and He offers forgiveness to all who believe on Him based on the fact that He paid our price so we do not have to pay in Hell.
We are all in despair if we are not saved from dying, saved from eternal dying in Hell. I was in despair until I believed the gospel of the resurrection of the Lord Jesus Christ. Now I live in hope of a promise made by God which He keeps. I'll be in Heaven soon. I have peace and joy and love for all, even my enemies, I want them to begin to understand the love of God.
For your "personal question", our time on Earth is for God's purpose. He has a plan, and we are part of it. He created all things for His own pleasure, we are created by Him for His purpose. You won't understand if you won't believe that God has raised Jesus from the dead and He is the Word of God, the LORD GOD ALMIGHTY. If you will believe, despair will be overcome by joy in hope of eternal life and it causes you to want everybody else to know the same thing.
If you really want to know, the answer is there. God loves you. You can know you have eternal life today in Jesus Christ.
You are asking questions with twisted reasoning. You have rejected the answer before you ask the question, so your questions are not making any sense. Whatever you mean by "3 days of not-really-death", it sounds like you are talking about the last three days of your own life before your death is finalized. You are a dead man walking and talking and mocking God who loves you enough to tolerate you temporarily and running out of time. He will accept you if you will accept what He did for you when He died in your place to pay for the wrongs you did against Him so you don't have to pay in Hell. He loved you so much, He died for you even though you act like you hate His guts. There is no greater love. If you won't believe it, you won't receive it and you will never know it. You are making your choice and only fooling yourself into believing you have the right to be exempt from Hell.
If you are not in despair and understanding that only God can save you from your sin, your death, and Hell you will see no need to ask Him to save you, will you? The things I am saying to you were said to me when I was in despair, and millions have been heard by God in their despair and delivered from their despair the same as me.
Our time on Earth is for glorifying God. You might think and use you time otherwise, God loves you and allows you to do that until your time counts down to zero and your death is finalized. If you will believe Jesus Christ finalized your death Himself, paid for your sins with His sinless blood and rose by His own power from the dead, the power of God, and ask God in Jesus's name to save you from Hell, He will save you. If you want to go your own way, God loves you and will let you go, even if you propel yourself in your sin away from Him forever where sin will be forever confined in the fire of Hell.
So you think you are better than God, and you hate Him, therefore you believe He does not love you. So what could he possibly do to show you that you are wrong and He really does love you? Is there any way you could possibly believe that God loves you? What do you want?
So you believe God despises you...I guess that's why you sound so ornery. I supposed I would be ornery also, if I believe God despises me. I think that's a downright pitiful way of looking at yourself.
So what did God do to you or fail to do for you which makes you think He does not love you? You want all suffering in the world to end and everybody to have paradise, and that is what you want for yourself? What is it? Can you tell me what happened to you or what failed to happen for you to make you think God does not love you?
So you believe God does not love you because not everyone can be a masochist? Are you hurting yourself by rejecting God's love and choosing death over life? You really are not making sense other than to prove you are dying and need to be saved.
Doesn't sound like a joke at all. It sounds like you believe God does not love you when He does. I don't know why you want to believe God does not love you. I think it's sad and I don't see any humor in your feelings toward God.
One face is His love for you, the other face is his hatred toward your sin. The way you are looking at Him, you will only see His angry face, and that face will be seen in the fire of Hell where the fire is all you will see which you are able to feel......if you don't get saved from it before it's too late.
I never have found you funny. Being lost and on your way to Hell really is not funny. I admit that sometimes I laugh at the stupidity of fools and the stupid things they say against God, but I'm glad you are here and not burning in Hell.
If you don't hate evil, there is something wrong with you....Love is against evil.
Cynical is a good name for you I guess. God loves you even though you seem to think He is unjust for letting you die and go to Hell. You can be saved now, but you won't, will you?
You never should have came into my discussions talking like this. It annoys me every time I see this junk. If you didn't want to see my words, you should have kept yours to yourself. Is it not justice for me to answer you?
You did not answer the question. What did God do to you or fail to do for you which makes you think He does not love you? This is about you, not about people in the Bible who did not receive kindness from God.
So if God says sorry to you, then you will believe He loves you? You want God to bow down to you and say He is guilty and you are as good or better than Him? You just plain hate God and are rejecting His love and you can't blame Him for your death when He paid the price to save you from it. You are choosing to pay yourself and He will let you do because He loves you. How else can He prove He loves you? The way you are acting is like you hate God and love death as if God is your enemy and death is your friend. God loves you and you can know it but I guess you won't....and I'm getting tired of trying to tell you God loves you, sorry.
So I guess you believe God either hates you or there is no God. Why in the world do you want those two miserable positions as your only choice? Do you think you escape your bitterness in death? God loves you and you can know Him now and have eternal life now through Jesus Christ who took your place and died in your place for you so you don't have to die for yourself, He is alive and will save you from Hell if you believe on Him and receive Him by faith.
You are the psychopath and God owes you no apology. It was a trick question. You are the one in trouble, not God. Hell's existence will be absolutely undeniably proved to you by......take a guess if you don't believe it's real.....
I feel sorry for you and I'm sorry I am unable to convince you that God loves you. God has done all He can to show His love for you other than to give you more time so you have another chance to repent and believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and know God's love...or is it too late? Has your death been finalized or was it only your antagonism here that was finalized? Are you still with us in this world? Hello?
i always wonder if maybe someday an infallible religion will arise from the ashes of nonsensical incomplete ones crushed by logical imperfections, a sort of ideological evolution.
You described your own life pretty well here....you are practicing what you think is an infallible religion in which you cannot end up burning in Hell. You worship your own mind by which you believe you have defeated God and Hell and go unpunished in death so nothing you did wrong really matters. Poof, and you think you are gone free from guilt.
again, every time I see this junk from you I find it annoying. If you don't want me to respond to you, don't put your comments in my discussions, and don't respond to my posts in other discussions.
You are practicing an infallible religion. You are being your own god, rejecting your Creator's love and religiously working to convince yourself that you are exempt form punishment in death. Your religion can never fail because your death will never end in Hell.....and my guess is that you still think you are going to prove me wrong. If you won't be saved before you finalize your death in rebellion against God's love for you, then you will be haunted by these words in Hell. I'm sorry if you won't believe me, I wish I could convince you that God loves you. I hope you still have time with us here. You have been a great encouragement for me to continue serving the Lord.
rejecting not only god's hypothetical love, but also god's baseless existence
working to convince yourself that you are exempt form punishment in death. Your religion can never fail because your death will never end in Hell.....
people with religious agendas should never play psycho-analyst, terrible playing partners, they are.
and my guess is that you still think you are going to prove me wrong
i have no intention of proving you wrong, just in expressing my opinion, which you even considerately made the side "i don't believe it" for. i just didn't realise you were the sort of tireless delusional who bans all their opponents where you don't agree
i have absolutely nothing against religion or the people who practice it, and actually think they are a benefit to the world most of the time. what i really can't stand is people like you. unfortunately inconsiderate people like you are everywhere. there are others who disagree with you. come to terms with it and deflate yourself. all people are victim to their own ego, but you are controlled by it.
you are an antagonistic delusional that goes around spreading your parasitic ideology under the justification of false notions of the invisible love of a sadistic creator and eternal punishment for those against you. you believe you can be saved from your death by shamelessly clinging to your frail hope at eternal life in a better place in the ultimate show of cowardice. you lack what it takes to live independently and rely on the image of the approval of a god for your selfish satisfaction and special needs. stop trying to pull people into your warped world and leave people to their own devices.
Why are you so antagonistic against God, acting like you have the power to replace Him with yourself? You don't impress me that much. I think God loves you and you are a sinner unworthy of Heaven, worthy of Hell, the same as me.
This diatribe against God and against me is why you believe God does not love you? You could have just summed it up by saying you believe there is no God and then conceding that really you have nothing to talk about. God loves you if you believe it or not. If you end up in Hell after your death is finalized, you will never be able to believe it. I hope you repent and believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and receive Him as your Savior before you have to appear before Him after you finalized your Hell-bound attitude against Him.
so you believe God does not love you because you are a psychopath? God can and will fix that if you will repent and believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and be saved from Hell.
Talking like that won't excuse you from being against God, and you can't blame Him if you end up stuck in Hell frying like an eternal sausage squirming like a worm. He did everything He could to prove His love for you, trying to get you to come into reason with Him so He could pardon you rather than execute you and give you what you are asking for.
I'm going to try and take you seriously, even though you have, in my view, behaved somewhat childishly. I doubt we will get anywhere constructive, but I will try.
In the debate description, you said: God wants you to be with Him in heaven forever, so He took on a body as the Son of God and paid for your sins with His own blood so you don't have to pay with your life in Hell. You will be justfied for eternal life if you agree with God as to His right to punish sin after He took the punishment on Himself and death could not hold Him in the ground; if you will repent of your sin and believe Jesus is risen from the dead and is God and receive Him personally as your Savior, God will give you eternal life...Jesus wil live in you by His Holy Spirit makign you a child of God.
Whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. God loves you and does not want you to be lost forever; He loves you so much He will let you be lost forever if that is what you want to be...even though you broke His heart so much that He died for you.
However, throughout that, you presented no reason why I should believe that. So as a starting point: You have made the positive claims: God exists, God loves you, God became Jesus, if you call upon the name of the Lord you shall be saved, etc. etc.. So far, you have presented no reasons to believe that. So, present why you believe that to be true, and then we can discuss that. Otherwise, you are saying "I believe this because it's true," which is not a legitimate argument.
You are arguing against the truth. Jesus is God, God came down from Heaven as Jesus Christ. God did not become Jesus Christ, He is Jesus Christ. God the Father, God the Son (Jesus), and God the Holy Spirit. These three are One.
I"m not making an argument, I'm stating facts. You don't want to believe the facts because you love the pleasures of your sin and prefer believing you have the right to exist outside of Hell so your sin is worth the price of your death. You are a fool, and you can prove or disprove it for yourself. To prove you are a fool, keep on talking and thinking the way you have been until your death is finalized. To disprove that you are a fool, agree with God...you can't do that, can you? You are too proud, aren't you? You won't agree with God, will you? I don't think you will, and I hope I am wrong. I really feel sorry for you.
I'm going to ignore your opening insults and try to clarify some of your misunderstandings........I'm also going to ignore your stupid screenname and assume you are better than a stupid dirty dog. God is much more concerned with people than He is with dogs. He does love dogs and grieves when He sees one die, but you are worth much more than a dog to God. You are made in His image with the ability to be His enemy. Dogs can only be dogs.
God did not become Jesus. Jesus is God the Son who was with God the Father and God the Holy Spirit always. These three are one. His plan of redemption for you was in place before mankind was created. He knew man would rebel like Satan did and He knew what He would have to do to buy man back from the Hell he deserves for choosing to be like a devil.
The reason you should believe what I am telling you is because you are dying and need to be saved. Your sin has separated you from God, and you will end up in Hell if you will not believe Him and repent of your sin and trust in the One who as God the Son became the payment for your sin so He can forgive you in His resurrection if you call on God in Jesus name to save you. This is how God proved His love for you when you were still His enemy....He died for you so you can be reconciled to God through Him. He conquered death on your behalf if you will put your trust in Him. If you will trust Him, He will change you forever. He will let you go your own way into death forever if you don't want to be changed. You can remain a sinner forever if you want to and never be like Jesus. If you will invite Jesus in to by agreeing with God on His terms for Jesus to be your Savior, He will come in to you and make you a new creature born of the Spirit of God, Jesus Christ Himself will live in you and take you through His death into His eternal life. The gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. If you don't see in this enough reason to believe on Him, it is your own choice.
Of course I believe something because it is true. Why would I believe something that is not true? It's not an argument, it's a fact. You are making it an argument by rejecting the truth, and that is between you and God, separating you from God and keeping you in imminent danger or eternal separation of Hell where all sin and sinners will be forever confined and consumed.
God loves you so much He died for you, gave His Son, God the Son sent by God the Father to die as a man like you with sinless blood from God, took your death and conquered it because you as a sinner are incapable of conquering death....you get what you deserve but God does not want you to have it that way so He, the Innocent One, laid down His life for you, paid your price so God can pardon you based on the fact that your price was paid. You can now have eternal life through Him in His resurrection. He is risen from the dead and He is LORD, the KING of all Creation, your Creator who became your Savior. God has the right to give you eternal life through Him and He has the right to leave you in Hell as an enemy of His if you want to go out that way.
So are you becoming harder against God or are you listening and thinking maybe He really does love you and is calling you to repent and believe on His Son so He can give you eternal life?
Please answer this last question...I'm not much interested in any diatribes against God or against me like so many have done here.
I did not invent this debate as an atheism VS theism debate. It's intended as personal, about your feelings toward God and how you can know He loves you and how you can have and increase your love for Him...that is if you find it in yourself to appreciate your Creator.
Ok, but know in advance that if you are abusive in speech with cuss words directed toward me or toward God or toward any problem you have or see in the world, or anything anywhere in the world or universe, I'll say God loves you if you believe it or not and I'll quit listening to you. I'll PM you and promise confidentiality of your statements as long as you are not boasting of or planning crimes. We have all done things punishable by law, I'm not concerned about petty crimes in your past. If you have raped or killed or committed grand larcenies, you probably should not speak of such things directly with me. God offers pardon so you can live forever with Him, having eternal life now as His gift for you. You can receive God's love. In PM, you can tell me why you think God does not love you and I'll try to show you that He does no matter how things may appear.
For the record, I repeatedly offered in PM for this person to tell me the reasons he believes God does not love him. I'm sorry I never got a response, I think I could convince the guy that God loves him.
“The God of the Old Testament is arguably the most unpleasant character in all fiction: jealous and proud of it; a petty, unjust, unforgiving control-freak; a vindictive, bloodthirsty ethnic cleanser; a misogynistic, homophobic, racist, infanticidal, genocidal, filicidal, pestilential, megalomaniacal, sadomasochistic, capriciously malevolent bully.”
I can reference biblical verses for each of those claims if you want.
Also, taking all the events in the Bible the Christian God has killed an estimated 24,994,828 if you take into account the flood of Noah (its 4,994,828 if you don't).
Even if we go into this "debate" going by the assumption that everything in the Bible is true (it isn't by a long-shot) then your god would still be a very unloving and hateful person by anyone's standards.
Do you want me to quote the Bible? Because I can back up every one of those claims with evidence from your own holy book. Or does the Bible have too much hatred towards God and Christians to be considered a usable source?
It's you who harbors hatred toward God, in spite of the fact that He loves you. Satan quoted the Bible to Jesus, using it to try to confuse Jesus by twisting the meanings and taking things out of context. You're boasting of being able to support your arguments with the Bible is old stuff, it's all over the internet. You can find the correct answers yourself if you want them. I could give them to you, but I know you will not accept them and it would be a colossal waste of time for me to entertain you. You want to be wasting away in your intellectual laziness, that's your problem. I'm not going to entertain that kind of stuff.
Richard Dawkins is an idiot, ignoring God's Justice. Sin is killing every one of us in body, and we deserve to die. Dawkins the fool is trying to deny justice, and you want to do the same thing believing you have the right to exist outside of Hell only because you can't see that you are a dead person talking now and worthy of eternal death in Hell.
Why in the world people put a bag of hot air like Dawkins on a pedestal is a mystery to me..........well, I guess it's understandable since sinners don't want God to rule over them. Dawkins can't get you out of Hell. You're wasting away and running out of time existing as a sinner in the world outside of Hell.
Sin is killing you, and you are including yourself in the number of people whose deaths you are blaming God for, correct, fool? You and Dawkins, what a pair of fools.
You are arguing against God's love. That makes it a debate. If you were discussing the love of God reasonably with me, then it would not be a debate. Fool.