CreateDebate


Debate Info

Debate Score:58
Arguments:75
Total Votes:79
More Stats

Argument Ratio

side graph
 
 How can I trust God when He forces suffering on people? (43)

Debate Creator

Sitar(3680) pic



How can I trust God when He forces suffering on people?

This debate assumes that God exists.
Add New Argument

Would a benevolent god create 12,320 diseases that affect humans, and thousands more that affect animals?

Would a benevolent god create violent and cruel people, animals, and insects?

Would a benevolent god create a place like hell where people are tormented for eternity?

Would a benevolent and omniscient god create billions of people that he knows will end up in hell?

Would a benevolent god say it's okay to own slaves and and beat them? (Leviticus 25:44-46, Exodus 21:20-21, Exodus 21:7, Deut 20:10-15)

Would a benevolent god say it's okay to beat your children with a rod? (Proverbs 13:24, Proverbs 22:15, Proverbs 23:13-14)

Would a benevolent god be sexist? (Genesis 3:16, 1 Timothy 2:12, 1 Corinthians 14:34-35, Leviticus 24:1-7, Exodus 21:7-11, Genesis 25:1-6, 2 Samuel 5:13, 1 Kings 11:1-6, Leviticus 12:1-8)

Would a benevolent god create a system of life that can only survive by killing and eating each other?

Would a benevolent god create a world with natural disasters?

Would a benevolent god create hateful people like Saintsnow/Fromwithin?

The answer to all those questions is NO. So if we assume god does exist, and is the god described by the Bible, then the answer to your question is that he can't be trusted, because he is cruel and extremely malevolent. The other possibility, which I think is far more likely, is that he is a fictional character created by men as a way to control others through fear.

luckin(175) Clarified
1 point

Would a benevolent god create 12,320 diseases that affect humans, and thousands more that affect animals?

He didn't create them. At least not directly. He created the means by which the bacteria, viruses, etc. can become diseases. Even then, the disease causing bacteria is less than a tenth of one percent so its not that big of an issue.

Would a benevolent god create violent and cruel people, animals, and insects?

Similar thing as mentioned before. For the animals and the insects, you do know how functional ecosystems work right? Not everything can be autotrophic or chemotropic. As for the people, they have the freedom to choose whether or not they are violent or cruel. Not all of them have the motivation to not be cruel or violent, but the decision is still there.

Would a benevolent god create a place like hell where people are tormented for eternity?

Hell is for people who consciously choose not to follow God. Romans talks about how God has revealed himself in all of creation so that we are without excuse. This includes those people who never hear the word of God.

Would a benevolent and omniscient god create billions of people that he knows will end up in hell?

See previous response.

Would a benevolent god say it's okay to own slaves and and beat them? (Leviticus 25:44-46, Exodus 21:20-21, Exodus 21:7, Deut 20:10-15)

When the bible talks about slaves, its not the kind of slavery we normally think of. The kind of slaves they had were called bond servants and the bond servants became such willingly under their own power. Different people did it for different reasons. Some did it to repay a debt while others did it as a source of income. The last set of verses in Deuteronomy are talking about groups of people that God has warned for years and years to turn from their ways, but refused. As a result, they weren't allowed to stay in the land since that was the land God had wanted for the Israelites.

Would a benevolent god say it's okay to beat your children with a rod? (Proverbs 13:24, Proverbs 22:15, Proverbs 23:13-14)

God isn't talking about literally hitting your kid with a rod. All of these verses are talking about disciplining your child. Not beating them with a rod just for the heck of it.

Would a benevolent god be sexist? (Genesis 3:16, 1 Timothy 2:12, 1 Corinthians 14:34-35, Leviticus 24:1-7, Exodus 21:7-11, Genesis 25:1-6, 2 Samuel 5:13, 1 Kings 11:1-6, Leviticus 12:1-8)

I'm gonna take each of the verses individually for clarity purposes.

Genesis 3:16-she chose to disobey God and this was a punishment for Eve for not obeying God. Adam got punished as well so it wasn't just Eve

1 Timothy 2:12-this is talking about spiritual issues. The only thing that Paul was prohibiting women to do was assume authority over men in things that were spiritual and thats it.

1 Corinthians 14:34-35-here, Paul was saying that if a woman wanted to ask about something she didn't understand during the sermon that was being taught, than she should not say anything during the sermon and wait till she got home with her husband and asked then and not interrupted the sermon.

Leviticus 24:1-7-this has nothing to do with sexism. This command was given to ALL the Israelites, both male and female.

Exodus 21:7-11-this is the same issue of bond servants as mentioned earlier, just guidelines how females were to be treated

Genesis 25:1-6-the only thing this is saying is that Abraham had another wife, concubines, children with each of them, and then gave the all the sons gifts but gave Isaac all he had

2 Samuel 5:13-same as Abraham. All this is saying is that Solomon haves numerous wives and concubines and had children with them. This has nothing to do with sexism

1 Kings 11:1-6-this is a more detailed version of the previous verse. God had said not to marry the women in the surrounding area since they would lead him away from God. Solomon disobeyed and went astray from God.

Leviticus 12:1-8-All this is talking about is when a woman is declared clean after having a baby and that it takes longer to be clean after having a female as opposed to a male baby

Would a benevolent god create a system of life that can only survive by killing and eating each other?

As I mentioned earlier, Not everything can be autotrophic or chemotropic. What you're basically saying is that you don't any complex ecosystems.

Would a benevolent god create a world with natural disasters?

What does a natural disaster have to do with benevolence? Are there not allowed to be floods, wildfires, or earthquakes? Entropy is a part of nature. This inevitably leads to natural disasters.

Would a benevolent god create hateful people like Saintsnow/Fromwithin?

He would and he has. However, everyone is responsible for their own choices. God is not causing them in any way, shape, or form to act the way they are. They are acting that way because they are flawed human beings in need of a savior just like us.

The answer to all those questions is NO.

The better answer is that what you consider to be a benevolent God wouldn't do that because your definition of benevolence is different.

So if we assume god does exist, and is the god described by the Bible, then the answer to your question is that he can't be trusted, because he is cruel and extremely malevolent.

You start off by saying that if we assume God exists and is the God of the bible that you have been talking about, then He can't be trusted. If He doesn't exist, then why are you wasting your time on a religious debate? If you don't think God exists, why does any of the stuff mentioned above bother you?

LittleMisfit(1745) Clarified
3 points

"He didn't create them. At least not directly. He created the means by which the bacteria, viruses, etc. can become diseases."

First of all, there is no way you could possibly know that. Second, even if he didn't create them directly, if he is omniscient like the Bible claims, then he knew beforehand that they would end up as diseases, so he is still responsible for creating the conditions where those things can exist. Plus if he is omnipotent he could easily eradicate all diseases and save millions of people from suffering every year, but he doesn't.

"Even then, the disease causing bacteria is less than a tenth of one percent so its not that big of an issue."

Not that big of an issue?! Millions of people suffer and die every year because of them. That sounds like a pretty big issue to me.

"For the animals and the insects, you do know how functional ecosystems work right? Not everything can be autotrophic or chemotropic."

You're making the assumption that life had to be created the way it is now. If god is omnipotent, like Christians claim, then he should have no problem creating a system of life that doesn't require suffering.

"As for the people, they have the freedom to choose whether or not they are violent or cruel. Not all of them have the motivation to not be cruel or violent, but the decision is still there."

I understand why some people are violent and cruel, my point is that if god, due to his omniscience, created those people knowing beforehand that they would be that way, then he is malevolent. Benevolent being don't create malevolent ones.

"Hell is for people who consciously choose not to follow God. Romans talks about how God has revealed himself in all of creation so that we are without excuse. This includes those people who never hear the word of God."

I know the Christian theology of what hell is for and who goes there. My point is that creating such a place is not a benevolent act. Subjecting people to eternal torment is as far from benevolent at you could possibly get, regardless of what they have done. Even us humans know that torturing people for crimes is wrong, but according to Christian theology god see nothing wrong with it.

"When the bible talks about slaves, its not the kind of slavery we normally think of. The kind of slaves they had were called bond servants and the bond servants became such willingly under their own power."

I've already responded to that same argument a hundred times, so here are links to my previous arguments.

Slavery in the Bible. The debate was continued here because Saintsnow banned everyone

Note: Sometimes CreateDebate doesn't jump you down to the argument. If it doesn't, just put your mouse cursor at the end of the web address after the pages loads and press Enter.

"God isn't talking about literally hitting your kid with a rod."

Yes he is. It literally says, "Thou shalt beat him with the rod..." I don't see how it could be any clearer.

"All of these verses are talking about disciplining your child. Not beating them with a rod just for the heck of it."

I never said it was referring to beating your kid just for the heck of it. Beating your kid with a rod is never acceptable, even if it is for discipline. All that teaches the kid is that if you're upset with someone you hit them.

"Genesis 3:16-she chose to disobey God and this was a punishment for Eve for not obeying God. Adam got punished as well so it wasn't just Eve"

They both committed the same crime, yet their punishments weren't even remotely the same. Part of Adam's punishment is he gets to rule over his wife?!

"1 Timothy 2:12-this is talking about spiritual issues. The only thing that Paul was prohibiting women to do was assume authority over men in things that were spiritual and thats it."

Yet, he has no problem with men assuming authority over women. That's sexist.

"1 Corinthians 14:34-35-here, Paul was saying that if a woman wanted to ask about something she didn't understand during the sermon that was being taught, than she should not say anything during the sermon and wait till she got home with her husband and asked then and not interrupted the sermon."

If it was just about preventing people from interrupting the sermon it would have been addressed to everyone, not just women.

"Leviticus 24:1-7-this has nothing to do with sexism. This command was given to ALL the Israelites, both male and female."

That verse wasn't correct. I must have wrote it down wrong. I'll see if I can figure out what it should have been.

"Exodus 21:7-11-this is the same issue of bond servants as mentioned earlier, just guidelines how females were to be treated"

First of all, the fact that god even allows a man to sell his daughter is wrong on so many levels. Not only that but women servants are treated like property and are never set free, unlike the male servants which are set free on the year of Jubilee. That passage is about as sexist as you can possibly get.

"Genesis 25:1-6-the only thing this is saying is that Abraham had another wife, concubines, children with each of them, and then gave the all the sons gifts but gave Isaac all he had"

Exactly, men are allowed to have multiple wives and concubines, but if a woman were to have multiple husbands or concubines she would be stoned to death. Women in the Bible are treated as nothing more than servants and sex toys.

"2 Samuel 5:13-same as Abraham. All this is saying is that Solomon haves numerous wives and concubines and had children with them. This has nothing to do with sexism"

Same as above. It is sexism to the extreme.

"Leviticus 12:1-8-All this is talking about is when a woman is declared clean after having a baby and that it takes longer to be clean after having a female as opposed to a male baby"

Exactly. How can you not see that as sexist? Why does having a female baby make you unclean for longer than a male baby. Why does it make you unclean at all. The whole thing is archaic and ridiculous.

"As I mentioned earlier, Not everything can be autotrophic or chemotropic. What you're basically saying is that you don't any complex ecosystems."

Again, your limiting gods omnipotence. If he can't create a system life that doesn't require violence and suffering, then he isn't omnipotent.

"What does a natural disaster have to do with benevolence? Are there not allowed to be floods, wildfires, or earthquakes? Entropy is a part of nature. This inevitably leads to natural disasters."

Same as above.

"He would and he has. However, everyone is responsible for their own choices. God is not causing them in any way, shape, or form to act the way they are. They are acting that way because they are flawed human beings in need of a savior just like us."

You're missing the point. According to Christian theology, God created those people, including their flawed brains. He did it with full knowledge what they would be like before he created them. Yet he chose to create them anyway. Therefore, he is malevolent. Like I said, benevolent being don't create malevolent ones.

"The better answer is that what you consider to be a benevolent God wouldn't do that because your definition of benevolence is different."

Show me a definition of benevolent that includes creating a world with unimaginable violence and suffering that ultimately ends up with billions of people being tormented forever.

"If He doesn't exist, then why are you wasting your time on a religious debate?"

Because religion is a plague upon humanity and has caused immeasurable suffering to millions of people. So, the more people I can convince to see just how archaic and destructive it is, the better the world will be.

"If you don't think God exists, why does any of the stuff mentioned above bother you?"

Because I care about people. You don't need religion to have morals. If you can't determine right from wrong, then you lack empathy, not religion. If the reason you do good things is for a reward in heaven, that's not morality, it's greed. If the reason you don't do bad things is fear of punishment in hell, that's not morality, it's fear. True morality is doing good regardless of the consequences.

1 point

Those are all good questions. I wish God would answer them.

KNHav(1957) Disputed
1 point

You may say why doesn't He create some other dynamics. Who's to say another dynamic wouldn't change the result.

He can't change Himself. And if He is pure Light, then no matter what God does Darkness is an impurity to Light, And darkness burns away. Light has to remove darkness.You exist, and are given a life to live according to how you want to live, to form bonds, and memories, and live life as you see fit.

That's a gift, not a curse. The question is do you want to be swallowed up in darkness in the end. As far as eternal torment Saintnow will have me executed a heretic, but I think it ends.

I think there is a resurection to judgement and All will be consumed and there will be tormenting destruction.

And people will mourn the choice, when they see Him, and then will slip into black empiness. I can't really tell you what will happen there. I'm pretty sure what we think we know and what it is are actually not the same thing.

But I don't think you can get saved by fearing Hell.

I think you have to love something about the character of God to want to follow. But the character you painted is far from accurate.

God is preparing the riches of Eternity the gift of Eternal Life to give to a gazillion of His children, who have loved and chosen light over darkness from every generation for 6000 years.

And don't bother with the evolution discussion, a day was not likely

a twenty four hour day. So whatever started it all was still Him, God is the Creator behind whatever, and however He did it. So it really doesn't matter. He is the First and the Last. Whatever it was, He was it!

Starting from Genesis through Revelations, God set up everything from all the main hosts, to all the appointed timelines for everything from beginning to end. Then He let our lives unfold with our free will intact.

For Him to have know your choice ahead of time, you would of had to exist!

And everyone existed, so God doesn't remove people from their life which existed just because He foreknew on their choices would be for darkness, or on account of the choices He knew ahead of you making them. That's absurd. Your life is still a gift. And honestly we don't know what Hell is, if its an eternal burn. Or Eternal death as in burned up and ceasing to exist throughout Eternity.

We just don't know all the answers.

It's so ridiculous, people have these expectations of validity and knowledge that are unreasonable. There is an awful lot of different events to dig for, and many have been confirmed found. But some Muslim countries don't even allow diggers to confirm Biblical facts because of the unrest in those countries.

The dilemmas there in mid east should be proof itself! It's like everyone is skeptical by choice, and that choice is unreasonable, if many indicators exist to confirm things, and many things found, and you still deny the Bible texts because all of it isn't proved, it's as unreasonable as saying we don't believe the Egyptians had a huge work force behind all the pyramids because we can't confirm everything that's hidden in the earth of Egypt. It's foolish and its ignorance of choice!

And He wouldn't and shouldn't decide not to create others because of others choices. Or not give what He prepared as a gift for a gazillion of His children, just because other people make different choices.

Through all the work to its completion, God is rewarding His Work with joy of a full house. He does this huge, elaborate work of over 6000 years of details, planning and orchestrating it all. To do this tranformational feat in us, transferring us from a human nature to a body like when Jesus rose from the dead. Every detail managed and appointed including the Cross and Resurrection. And to have a gazilion Children to to share in all His riches through Eternity.

MATT 14

2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.

3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.The earth was already dark, void formless, maybe from when Satan fell. So darkness existed as a choice. And darkness overcomes light or light overcomes darkness, but they can't coexist together in the same place. So for now light exists in the darkness, and where light exists, darkness is pushed back.

John 5

16 For this reason the Jews were persecuting Jesus, because He was doing these things on the Sabbath. 17 But He answered them, “My Father is working until now, and I Myself am working.”

3 points

When bad things happen to Gods people

.

“Why is this happening to me?”

.

You’ve probably faced some sort of trial and in a weary moment wondered that very question. What about that—is God in complete control of everything? If so, and if He’s good, why is there so much heartache in the world? Why wouldn’t He take special care to keep His children from trouble and hurt?

.

In When Bad Things Happen to God’s People, you’ll see eight positive purposes for the suffering you experience.

.

Includes the following 3 messages:

.

Blessed Is God, Part 1

Blessed Is God, Part 2 -- 2 Corinthians 1:4-7

Comfort in Trouble -- 2 Corinthians 1:8-11

2 points

Can you suggest Bible verses?.............................................................

Jupiter(116) Disputed
1 point

Kind of funny, when good things happen you say its a blessing. Yet bad things are a trial. Kind of sounds like a Deus Ex Machina scam to me

FromWithin(8241) Clarified
-3 points
2 points

You can't.

The understanding of the Christian God has various characteristics:

1) He is omnipotent

2) He is omniscient

3) He is love

Now, assuming that there characteristics are legitimate, then they prove that God is either untrustworthy or unreal. Love does not hate or take enjoy to see evil, harm, pain, etc. How can God be love but watch not just the suffering on Earth, but the eternal suffering he has threatened for all those who simply do not worship Him? Sounds like a vengeful god to me, and vengeance is not love.

dadman(1703) Disputed
1 point

The understanding of the Christian God .. God Satan and Angels .. I would refer you to the Revelation about himself he has revealed ... The Bible / the Word of God ..... GOD / SATAN AND ANGELS . . . . Someone has said that the most important thing about you is what comes to your mind when you think about God . . . It’s true .. What you believe about God has serious .. long-term impact on how you live .. every thought .. word .. action .. and attitude is ultimately a reflection of your beliefs .. right or wrong .. about God and His character . . With so much at stake .. there’s really no more important pursuit than sorting out reality from myth and knowing God for who He really is . . . John MacArthur takes you to the Bible for an accurate .. in-depth portrait of God Himself .. as well as the other powerful inhabitants of the supernatural realm .. Satan .. demons .. and God’s invisible army of holy angels ..... enjoy

2 points

In what way does this address the question of Epicurus?

It does not disprove god, but it does disprove the existence of a god worthy of human worship.

Saintnow(3684) Disputed
1 point

Maybe God will strike you dead soon so you don't have to complain about the suffering in the world anymore.

If God were to end the evil in the world now, that means you would be in Hell now because you are evil against God....and you are a sodomite, so your place is in the lake of fire....and God is love, you deny He is good, you want reality to be void of His goodness so God is lovingly giving you what you want and the only place you can have reality void of good things from God is in the fire of Hell...and you can talk against God forever and accuse Him of not caring when in reality He's giving you the death you want forever. Idiot.

Saintnow(3684) Disputed
1 point

You are an enemy of God and He is not to blame if you fall in death to Hell and are left there forever. God's vengeance against His enemies is justified, your life is unjustifiable by anything you do or say.......you deserve to die, you cannot justify your existence outside of the fire of Hell. Saying God is evil will only propel you into Hell, fool.

Saintnow(3684) Disputed
1 point

God hates evil. What good would God be if He did not hate evil? What good is your love if you do not hate evil? God hates the fact that you hate Him and are evil in your desire to dethrone Him by your slanders. You insist He is unworthy of being called good, and not to be thanked for anything good, you want reality with no goodness from God and because He is love He is letting you have what you want.......the fire of Hell where there is nothing good. God loves you and is reluctant to give you what you are asking for, so He's giving you time so maybe you will realize that fighting against God is fighting in favor of your own damnation is the fire of Hell. The stink of sodomy has polluted your brain so much that you think you can murder God. Idiot.

luckin(175) Clarified
1 point

I think there may be a bit of a misunderstanding of what love is. Or at least what is done out of love. He doesn't like the suffering of the world. In fact, He would want to take it away and have everyone turn to him. The problem is though, He loves us too much to take away our ability to choose, even if it means we choose wrong and turn away from Him. This is mainly because you can't have your cake and eat it too. God can't have people love him if they don't have the freedom to choose it. Its a logical contradiction. The reason He sends people to hell for eternity is because people willingly do whats wrong knowing its wrong. God gave everyone a free way out, but people willingly choose not to take it. You're right when you say vengeance isn't love. But how is He supposed to treat his enemy who hates him? He can't just let it slide, He has to deal with it. Which is why hell exists

Saintnow(3684) Disputed
1 point

God's love is no good if He does not hate evil. You hate God because you are jealous.

2 points

You have to remember that God suffers for us, He gave Himself for us when He died in our place on the cross. He was tempted in all points like us, He went through it all for us so He can pull us up and out of it in His resurrection. We can go through it because He went through it for us.

1 point

God gives people grace to be obedient to Him and endure suffering. You're looking at things wrong, don't get mad and kill your baby before it's born.

God does not force suffering on us. Suffering in this life and in this world is caused by ourselves. Or from natural disasters. God gave us free will and without it we would be less than human and no more than slaves or robots.

God does give us the strength and patience to ensure the suffering that we inflict on each other. In this way he is giving us more than we deserve, really. It's through his Grace that we get this. But only the ones who have come to know God and commune with Him, and accept His son are imbued with this Grace. The good news is that all you have to do to get it is ask for it. Sincerely ask for it. And ask for his will to be Done. And His Will is Not for us to suffer.

IAmSparticus(1516) Clarified
1 point

God does not force suffering on us. Suffering in this life and in this world is caused by ourselves.

But there are a lot of issues with this. For example, a lot of suffering is external in nature, meaning it is caused by other people. People as a whole were created by God, and God knows everything everyone will do before hand (he knew what we would do as he created us according to Christianity). This means that it is still God's creation (and will, essentially) that led to this suffering, even if it is at the hands of humans.

Or from natural disasters.

If God created the Earth and its natural systems, then suffering from natural disasters would be on him as well.

God gave us free will and without it we would be less than human and no more than slaves or robots.

We still essentially are. "Free will" means choose right, or be tortured for all of eternity. That isn't an actual choice. That isn't free will. That is coercion.

God does give us the strength and patience to ensure the suffering that we inflict on each other.

Many people can't endure their suffering. What about them?

In this way he is giving us more than we deserve, really.

This is a very perverse idea. A baby who is newly born does not deserve any punishment, and the concept of "Original Sin" requires the idea that we should all be held responsible for the actions of one person eons ago...that was still according to the will and knowledge of God.

It's through his Grace that we get this. But only the ones who have come to know God and commune with Him, and accept His son are imbued with this Grace.

So you are saying that non-Christians can not endure suffering, while Christians can? Then why is it that so many non-Christians endure suffering (in fact, the majority of all humans who have existed and endured suffering weren't Christian), and so many Christians can't? Mind you that isn't to say that Christians are somehow known for being unable to endure suffering, but from what you are saying, they should all be able to.

The good news is that all you have to do to get it is ask for it. Sincerely ask for it.

But you can't sincerely ask for it unless you already hold theistic beliefs. Otherwise there isn't any way to be sincere about it. So what is your answer for those who are not theistic, and therefore can't sincerely ask?

And His Will is Not for us to suffer.

Then why did he create Satan as he was, knowing what he would do? Why did he create Eve the way she was, knowing what she would do? Why does he create anyone who causes suffering, knowing what they will do?

Saintnow(3684) Disputed
2 points

All suffering is caused by sin. God will purge evil from Creation and confine all of the suffering it causes in Hell one day. If He did it today, you would be burning in Hell now. Accusing Him of not caring about the evil and suffering in the world is asking for Him to put you in Hell and leave you there........and I wonder if you are going to get what you are asking for or if you will quit being a fool before it's too late.

Saintnow(3684) Disputed
2 points

God gave us free will and without it we would be less than human and no more than slaves or robots.

We still essentially are. "Free will" means choose right, or be tortured for all of eternity. That isn't an actual choice. That isn't free will. That is coercion.

So don't be coerced. Be strong, defy God, do not let Him coerce you in any way. Go on and see if you can prove you have the right to exist outside of Hell. Defy God. Do it. Idiot.

Saintnow(3684) Disputed
2 points

You're an idiot, trying to prove God is not good, all you are doing is going to get yourself in the fire of Hell with no way out and no way to believe God is good. You are trying to blame God for the evil in the world, including the evil in your own heart, and if you keep pushing it against God He will lose patience with you and leave you forever separated from Him as you are now, dying forever in the fire of Hell with no hope of life. Why in the world people like you think they are smart when it's so obviously stupid to argue against God .........I don't know. Go look in the mirror and tell yourself how great you are because all I see is a pile of wet dust drying up fast.

1 point

god does not force suffering on people it's just that some people deserve to be dead or sometimes it's just there tern to die. I'm saying that god will never ever put other people in danger what happen to people happens for a reason and it's not cause of god, people have died because of their choices not because of god. the bible say's tho sho not kill, so why would god do that to his own children. in the bible god did not kill Adam and eve when the disobeyed him he sent them of to place and to never come back. so why would god do that to his own creation that does not make since or like the time when the devil tried to take over but did god kill him no he sent him off, and where he went down stairs. so I'm saying god does not bring suffering on people or on his own creation.

1 point

If one is capable of having faith in God in the first place, I do not see the difficulty in having faith that he forces suffering on people for some good reason beyond our limited knowledge. The latter leap is no greater than the former, certainly.

1 point

Trust that he will cause people to suffer.

1 point

You can't trust a God that forces suffering on people!

If you think He forces suffering, then You dont understand God or the Word that describes Him.

Have you ever read the Bible through, or in part?

There is punishment for sin. But sin brings it's own suffering.

Satan is the god of this world. He fell like lightening into

darkness. And the darkness overcame him.

Before God brought light on day 1, the earth was dark, void,

and formless.

God already judged Satan, so deeds which are born from his seed are born in darkness, and already judged.

Sin is just sin, I don't think God arbitrarily "decided" what sin is.

Sin is what it is! it's part of darkness, and darkness CAN'T be a partaker of light, it's actually not possible. Deeds born in Darkness are part of the darkness and there is no changing that.

It's a predicament when we love something that is of the seed of darkness, and when our heart is set on things or on relationships

that are born from darkness. Because if our heart is set on anything in the darkness, then our hearts does not even possess the ability

to stand and remain in the Fullness of the Light.

God is Omnipotent, but we don't need to play the game "can God?"

He's God not Jafar from Disney, He does what He does and honestly He is TO BIG to challenge. HE'S GOD!

So He can't make a darkness that can stand in His Light!

Any appearances that God made He never came to man and showed Himself fully or His face. Stating His reasons, even to

those who were "righteous" He had to be cloaked, and He did

things like came in a cloud, or showed only His back, because

no one can see him and live!

God isn't having a temper tantrum, or being tyrinical.

For those of us who have decided to choose Eternal Life with Him, He has given a detailed instructions manual showing us how to stand and remain, and without following the guide to a T we would NOT be able to stand and remain when we do come face to face, with Him. God knows, what happens to darkness in His presence!

So wouldn't make sense that He show us the difference between light and darkness, and then guide us in Light.

God is Light! There are deeds of light, and there are deeds of darkness. Deeds of darkness grow from seeds of darkness. And deeds of light are fruits of seed that do not have darkness in them.

What God defines as sin are the forms that are born from seeds of darkness, which then take root in us, and when they grow they are formless (not created) and they take form in deeds of sin that are found in the dark void, taking it's own ugly form in the image of the god of a dark world, without light and separated from Light.

When God set the timeline established everything as far back as Genesis:

2 - 1 Thus the heavens and the earth were completed, and all their hosts. 2 By the seventh day God completed His work which He had done, and He rested on the seventh day from all His work which He had done.

Yet He is still working -

John 5 ... 16 Jews were persecuting Jesus, because He was doing these things on the Sabbath.

17 But He answered them, “My Father is working until now,

and I Myself am working.”

When God made the world some things "He saw and said they were good" and some things He some things He said, "and it was so"

Gen 1

9 Then God said, “Let the waters below the heavens be gathered

into one place, and let the dry land appear”; and it was so.

10 God called the dry land earth, and the gathering of the waters

He called seas; and God saw that it was good.

11 Then God said, “Let the earth sprout vegetation, plants yielding seed, and fruit trees on the earth bearing fruit after their kind with seed in them” and it was so.

12 The earth brought forth vegetation, plants yielding seed after their kind, and trees bearing fruit with seed in them, after their kind; and God saw that it was good.

13 There was evening and there was morning, a third day..

1 point

God isn't having a temper tantrum, or being tyrinical. He is instructing us, who choose Eternal Life with Him on how to stand and remain, when we come face to face, before Him, knowing, what happens to darkness in His presence!

1 point

What God defines as sin are deeds that are formed from seeds of darkness. They take root and grow into their own ugly forms.

God didn't create sin. And I don't think He created darkness either. Darkness just co-exists, and when Satan fell into the darkness his light went out and Darkness overcame him. Sin is the the fruit from his seed born in darkness.

If you find yourself on the wrong side, "of the only definate choice."

It may feel like a stacked deck that was dealt out to you.

But that's unresonable. You have a choice to be on either side.

You just have to be willing to leave darkness behind. And that's

a tuff choice.

It's a matter of counting the cost, and if the cost is to high its because the idols and whatever we love clouds our vision, but you can't blame God because He orchestrated this whole thing to

share all things with you, but He cant share darkness.

Matt 16

24 ... “If anyone wishes to come after Me, he must deny himself, and take up his cross and follow Me. 25 For whoever wishes to save his life will lose it; but whoever loses his life for My sake will find it. 26 For what will it profit a man if he gains the whole world and forfeits his soul? Or what will a man give in exchange for his soul? 27 For the Son of Man is going to come in the glory of His Father with His angels, and will then repay every man according to his deeds..

0 points

How can I trust God when He forces suffering on people? ...

pfft !! .... no one is forcing you to trust God for anything dipwahd ....

don't trust God if you choose ... what the heck, it's no skin off our nose

.... whatever

-2 points
IAmSparticus(1516) Clarified
3 points

How can God be compassionate, and yet send people be Hell for eternity?

After all, the most a given person lives on this planet is between 60-100 years, and for actions done in that small period of time, sometimes actions as small as simply not being conviced of Christianity, they are to be tortured for eternity?

How is that fair? How is that compassionate?

How is that not monstrous?

Saintnow(3684) Disputed
1 point

You want to believe God is not good. Here, because of good things like rain on a hot day, and sunshine on a cool day, you can believe God is good but you want to believe He is evil and the only place you can have no sign of God being good is in the fire of Hell. That is what you are asking for, and how can God be good if He does not give you what you really want? You want to believe God is not good to you, so He'll give you proof you can keep forever and you can't blame Him for giving it to you. You will be wrong, God is good, but in Hell is will be impossible to believe He is good because He won't get you out or relieve your suffering....and He is justified to leave you there because He died in your place, paid your price, and you reject Him, you don't care what He did for you, you trample His blood under your feet and His blood is on your hands....and you will get what you deserve if you will not believe God loves you and is willing and able to forgive you.

FromWithin(8241) Disputed
-2 points