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Debate Info

117
71
He can't. This is how.
Debate Score:188
Arguments:116
Total Votes:206
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Argument Ratio

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 He can't. (62)
 
 This is how. (50)

Debate Creator

SitaraForJesus(3819) pic



How can a loving God allow evil and then punish humans and angels for it?

That makes no sense to me. :(

He can't.

Side Score: 117
VS.

This is how.

Side Score: 71
Atrag(5556) Banned
3 points

Because Christianity was invented to control you. To make you fear God. Unfortunately this image doesn't fit with the loving image that is needed to make people love this imaginary creature. But oh well Christians ignore paradoxes like this because they feel their live is so empty without their imaginary friend.

Side: He can't.
3 points

Fear of god is required. Not literal fear of facing god, but the fear of the consequences for doing something you know you should not do. And that means think before you act.

You find many wise words in religions when you read with an open mind.

Side: This is how.
mc1934(70) Disputed
2 points

No paradox. The disobedient child always finds a way to blame the parent for their own bad decisions. God placed the knowledge of Him in everyone. It takes the active suppression of the truth to deny His existence. The Bible refers to it as "suppressing the truth in unrighteousness". The truly empty existence is the existence of the person who is always striving after something that can never fulfill their desires. No one can ever have enough money, drugs, sex, leisure, anything to actually fulfill them.

Side: This is how.
Atrag(5556) Disputed Banned
3 points

Saying no paradox and then talking about something completely unrelated to whether there is a paradox is not a convincing argument.

God cannot be all powerful, all good, exist outside the limits of time but yet still allow evil.

Side: He can't.
Cartman(18192) Disputed
1 point

And, a horrible parent will blame the child for not behaving instead of raising the child properly.

Side: He can't.
1 point

If God is in control, He is responsible for evil. .

Side: He can't.
AngryGenX(463) Disputed
2 points

To love God, all I have to do is look at the ugliness of those who live outside of his word. Put your arrogance aside and learn. I hope some day you realize how much we all need him, but he doesn't need us. But yet he waits, chastises, and offers us a way to him. The ship is sinking and the leader of the last life boat just wants you to leave your baggage behind and hop in. Stand by the railings and argue if you want; You can't deny your existence is finite in the face of inaction.

Side: This is how.
2 points

God is for the weaker mind. Someone who can't accept there is no right and wrong. No life after death. The point to life is survive until you die. The only judgment that exists is the judgment of humans.

Side: He can't.

God's not real. People constantly blame Satin. If theirs one god, than there's no Satin. Technically Satin is the evil God like Christianity. Every Religion has an evil God including Christianity. So if there's one God than that God causes all the Fucked up shit in this world. But that's just my thoughts.

Plus I'm Atheist. There's no god. Early Modern Humans made religion because they didn't understand the world.

Side: He can't.
AngryGenX(463) Disputed
1 point

Late modern humans made Atheism, because they didn't understand themselves................................................

Side: This is how.
1 point

Technically pronto humans that lives 6-7 million years ago didn't worship god. Meaning that the earliest Humans were Atheist. Early Homo Sapiens didn't understand the world and themselves. Making religion. I can counter an comment you make fuckface.

Side: He can't.
riahlize(1573) Disputed
1 point

Humans also made religion and divinity for the same reason.

Side: He can't.
1 point

He doesn't. It makes no sense.

Basically the idea of Hell as Torment or Isolation goes like this:

Good people go to heaven. Sinners, those who spread Satan's work, go to hell... where Satan thanks them by spawn-killing them over and over and over in the worst ways beyond imagination? What?!

If that were the case, then Satan's playing Jail-Warden and torturer/executioner for the evil scumbags that go against God. That means that God and Satan are in cahoots if God throws bad guys for Satan to beat up in retaliation for sinning.

Realistically, Satan would pat a sinner on the back and tell them to prepare for war. Seriously. God punishes nobody.

Side: He can't.

There are Christians who do not believe in the existence of Hell.

Side: He can't.

He didn't he created lucifer and lucifer, in his pride, thought that since we are all god that maybe he could be god, then he believed he was god.

Then the fall of the angels etc...

And then how satan was cast down to earth to rule over it.

And thats how we have evil because the devil rules the mundane world.

Side: This is how.
Atrag(5556) Disputed Banned
5 points

But if God is timeless, he knows everything that was going to happen, so he knew that the devil was going to do this. Being that he is also all powerful and all good how could he allow an evil thing to exist? God choses for the devil to exist and this makes him evil.

Side: He can't.
2 points

Yep, so maybe he saw that the only way to get the best effect was by creating the worst cause...

Who knows?

i don't, i just believe i know. Noone knows anything, not even our own needs!

And about not knowing our own needs, this is what i mean. Lets say i go to a shoemaker and i tell him make me some boots and let me have the excess strips of leather from the boots.

Well, what if you died that night? You wouldnt need work boots you would need death slippers. So why didnt I just order the death slippers? Cuz idk

lol :P

Side: This is how.
Paradox44(736) Disputed
1 point

Not necessarily. Even if he allowed the devil to do what he wished to do how would that be any different than a parent allowing her rebellious child to do bad things? It's because the child will face punishment due to their own decisions.

Side: This is how.
Animalrights(11) Disputed
1 point
Side: He can't.
3 points

When God first created Adam and Eve, he gave them a mind of free will. He easily could have said "you will obey me, and do as I wish" but then what would have been the point? He wanted them to do this of their own free will. They chose to disobey him. All evil in this world is created by humans themselves. God doesn't just punish us for sin, but also rewards us for good.

Side: This is how.
goodmale(1457) Disputed
2 points

God has nothing that I want so how would God reward me for obeying him.

Side: He can't.
2 points

How can a loving parent allow for his/her children to do bad things and punish his/her kids for it?

Side: This is how.
mc1934(70) Disputed
3 points

Every good and loving parent does this. It is allowing the child the ability to make their own decisions (free will). Sometimes the children's decisions are bad and the parent must punish the child to let them know that there are consequences for their actions. Do your parents love you? If so...by your argument they must tell you what to say, what to think, and what to do and since you have been lobotomized and mindlessly follow all instructions they have kept you safe from having to ever be punished. Life is great as a mindless automaton.

Side: He can't.
Paradox44(736) Clarified
2 points

Why are you disagreeing if I posted on this side? I purposefully phrased my question so that "free will" becomes the obvious answer.

Side: He can't.
2 points

Because we still have a sinful nature and we are not doing anything to change it except by saying things like well why do i have to suffer for my ancestors?

Well why dont we just change our sinful ways?

Side: He can't.
Atrag(5556) Disputed Banned
3 points

God wanted sin to exist. If he didnt want sin to exist he would have created sin.

Side: This is how.
pakicetus(1455) Disputed
2 points

God made us this way, and then punishes us. Seems a little sadistic.

Side: This is how.
2 points

You are making no sense. I dont understand your argument. .

Side: This is how.
riahlize(1573) Disputed
2 points

Unless these loving parents are also omniscient and omnipotent, then the analogy is not equivalent.

Side: He can't.
1 point

This is a general analogy. You missed the purpose of the analogy. Please refer back to it multiple times before responding.

Side: He can't.
1 point

It is us who are causing all this. The sin in our soul causes suffering around us. Like for an instance, the rich are sometimes greedy and don't give to the poor. Well, of course not all rich woman and men are greedy. Also, we can't blame everything on God.

Side: This is how.
1 point

God created that sin. If you can thank God, you can blame Him.

Side: He can't.
1 point

Deterministic philosophers have noted that simply because something is going to happen, it doesn't negate moral responsibility.

Side: This is how.
5 points

But that doesn't really make sense, now does it?

Side: He can't.
5 points

But that doesn't really make sense, now does it?

Side: He can't.
5 points

But that doesn't really make sense, now does it?

Side: He can't.
5 points

But that doesn't really make sense, now does it?

Side: He can't.
5 points

But that doesn't really make sense, now does it?

Side: He can't.
5 points

But that doesn't really make sense, now does it?

Side: He can't.
5 points

But that doesn't really make sense, now does it?

Side: He can't.
5 points

But that doesn't really make sense, now does it?

Side: He can't.
5 points

But that doesn't really make sense, now does it?

Side: He can't.

This stems from the beginning. The choice between The Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil and The Tree of Life was both literal and symbolic. The Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil represents relying on our own mind, thoughts, and feelings while the Tree of Life represents relying on God's mind, thoughts, and feelings. When Eve partook of the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil she was relying on her own thoughts and mind and is why she was so easily tricked. This is also Adam's fault because he also failed in his role to protect Eve from any and all danger. Eve then failed in her role as a "lifesaver" (more accurate translation than "help-meet") and in fact help give Adam death by handing it to Adam to eat.

From then on we have had to use our own knowledge rather than God's with only his creation and a few divinely inspired books to guide our knowledge. The question "how can God allow evil" is seperate from the "punish[ing] [of] humans and angels".

Evil is is in two separate categories: natural and moral. God is the direct cause of natural evil. God is not the direct cause of moral evil (Galatians 2:17) but is indirectly responsible (Isaiah 45:7). God uses both kinds of evil for our benefit although may times we don't see it as such (Isaiah 45:32-3).

God does not punish us for natural evil because we are not the cause of it . Does, however, judge our reaction to natural evil and moral evil as well because we are the cause of moral evil. Because God is not the cause of moral evil, he can rightly judge us as such.

Side: This is how.
AngryGenX(463) Disputed
1 point

I liked where you were going, until you started talking about natural evil. There is no such thing. God is incapable of doing anything that could be accurately called "evil". I think that is an extremely dangers miss-characterization. Every disaster that strikes humanity is justice from God; effects of living in a fallen world we freely chose every day. We are the direct cause of this "natural evil." What God chooses to do is beyond characterization of "good" or "bad". Everything that is sanctioned by God (loving your neighbor, paying your taxes, hurricanes, fire, nuclear fission) is "good". Everything not sanctioned by God (homosexuality, theft, cruelty, sin) is "bad". Reality is, the only thing in the universe that is "bad" or "evil" is the choices of man and Satan.

In addition, your biblical sources do not say anything close to what you are saying.

Side: He can't.
1 point

Why would God give us these feeling and than punish us for it.

Side: He can't.
1 point

I had an epiphany several months ago that I believe answers this question. I asked myself, "Is it possible to sin in Heaven?" I realize there will be no sin in Heaven, but is that because God zaps our free will from us when we enter the gate? (unlikely) Or is it just because Heaven will be free of temptations and everyone who makes it there will never make the deliberate choice to sin... If it is the latter... to make Heaven a success the saints would have to be chosen in such a way that they all have an element of humility and submission... I believe that is what is happening now, as to enter Heaven, all you really have to do is accept salvation through Jesus.

I believe this situation mirrors what happened in the Garden of Eden. It was a place free of temptation, except Adam and Eve had to make a simple decision to be humble and submit to the one and only law we were given. Adam and Eve failed. Later, when the nation of Israel was given an equal fellowship and closeness with God, living under his direct guidance. We still failed, demonstrating our futility to try to earn our way into God's presence through obedience alone. I believe the entire purpose of the Old Testament is to show us what is just, and what isn't, and that there is no way we can follow the law in the fallen world. Forgiveness of our sins is necessary to enter Heaven, so we have to again make a simple choice to accept it through Jesus.

Imagine someone who goes through the human experience, falls into sin and hits rock bottom as we all do. If he is the type of person who acknowledges their sins and seeks God's forgiveness, do you think he would eventually "eat the apple" if he were suddenly taken back to the Garden of Eden? Isn't that what God wanted from us in the first place; just to live out our lives in the Garden without breaking the one law?

When we do that, God acquires what he was after in our Creation. Souls who successfully reflects his image and will not turn to sin when in his presence, will be granted that presence. Those who would have made the same mistake Adam and Eve made won't be among us any more. In other words, the grain will be separated from the chaff. Judgement is necessary for mankind to do what we were made to do in the beginning.

I concede my line of thinking requires some assumptions that are not spelled out in scripture, but how it all comes together makes a lot of sense to me.

Side: This is how.
1 point

waits to hear the excuses from christians........................

Side: This is how.
1 point

Look, honey. Whoever created this debate. You really don't understand. Okay, what you need to hear is the gospel.God is love. He is. But he also gave us free will. He didn't want us to be robots, like

All powerful God:HEY YOU!DO THIS!

unworthy human:yes, of course, without question, my lord

NO he didnt want us to be like that.So he gave us freedom to choose. to either follow him, or to disobey Him and suffer the consequences. He allowed us to choose, you see. and he allowed us to choose to do the wrong thing.(this is, i guess, what u mean by God allows evil) dont get me wrong: he does not like it when we choose wrongly. in fact it makes him extremely sad. but he allowed it to happen.and it did. adam and eve, from the very beginning, chose wrongly, therefore they had to suffer the consequences and be sent away from the garden of eden.(this must be what u mean by punish)

and humans continued to sin. the consequence for sin, u see, is death. But God didnt want us to suffer eternal death in hell. he loved us way too much. but he couldnt just be like, okay, so i love you, so no one has to die. he is a just and fair God.so instead of us dying, he gave us his son, Jesus,who is holy and sinless,to die in ALL places instead. and Jesus did.

Thats why, if u believe that Jesus died for u and saved u from an eternal death, and u confess that to God, u can have this eternal life.

and thats the gospel.

Side: This is how.