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How do we cure scientific illiteracy?
Science is the purist method of finding truth in our word and yet a large portion of the general populous is completely ignorant of how it even works.They reject its discoveries and the people who practise it. Scientist are attacked by conspiracy theorists, religious fundamentalists, and even politicians.
We live in an amazing age of technological advancements and ever increasing knowledge of the fundamental laws that govern our world. Yet, the farther we get as a society, the louder the voices of those trying to hold us back seem to get.
Don't get me wrong. As a whole, society is throwing away false precepts of the past at an unprecedented rate. But there are still people of considerable number that just won't change their mind no matter how many ways you prove them wrong.
Facts are rejected as lies. Well established theories are mocked and misrepresented to seem like they are nothing more than opinions, while at the same time pseudoscience and snake oil salesmen are propped up and respected.
I would like to believe education is the answer but some groups have slipped into an almost militant stance. This wouldn't be a problem if they didn't try to propagate it and undermine all the progress we have made by targeting the vulnerable minds of children.
How do we bring those people out of the dark ages?
"Scientist are attacked by conspiracy theorists, religious fundamentalists, and even politicians. "
The work of scientists often deserves to be attacked. Just because something used the scientific method doesn't mean it isn't flawed, or that it shows what it purports to show. Criticism and evaluation of studies and theories is absolutely necessary to scientific progress. If one hasn't the intelligence to read both the criticism and the source material (and this is the case for most people), that is the issue. As such, teaching people to be critical of everything (not just things they don't believe, and people do ignorantly believe scientific theories) is the solution.
For example, 200 studies may have been done on a given subject yet a news outlet may run a story on but one study and misrepresent the body of literature. Alternatively, 200 studies may have been done on a subject which all have the same flaw(s), while several studies without such flaws suggest the opposite. It's difficult and time consuming to properly read the body of literature. I think that way too many people deem themselves scientifically literate simply because they have taken someone else's reading of the literature as fact. In addition, it's even more difficult to be particularly scientifically literate of anything outside one's own field.
The work of scientists often deserves to be attacked. Just because something used the scientific method doesn't mean it isn't flawed, or that it shows what it purports to show. Criticism and evaluation of studies and theories is absolutely necessary to scientific progress.
Evaluation is not the same thing as attack. Attack is when you stick your fingers in your ears and scream that Al Gore invented climate change. Evaluation is when a qualified scientist assesses the work, as they already do during the peer review process.
Consider this... What is the cause of scientific illiteracy? Is it primarily
a) Simply a lack of exposure, lack of education itself? or
b) That they do get exposed but conclude it's worthless and BS?, or
c) That they think it conflicts with their beliefs, particularly religious beliefs?
I will argue maybe 20% is "a" (because indeed there are some bad school experiences and/or problem students out there), and that "b" is almost always because of "c" (because there's really no motivation otherwise to resist the technological innovations or knowledge science brings to us), which means about 80% is "c" - religion.
The only way to counter religion is to enforce separation of church and state, as well as to be vigilante against religious right candidates who want to wield political power to slap science and education and hand gifts to their churches.
I love science. I've usually found Atheists many times don't know as much as I do and make ignorant statements about it. I've had to explain macro vs micro evolution more times than I can count, so obviously science isn't the central theme of their actual Atheism. Nevertheless, it doesn't do anything for or against my religious beliefs. Showing me how God could have done something is meaningless white noise to me. Showing me how a car manufacturer makes cars doesn't explain away the car manufacturer.
I've had to explain macro vs micro evolution more times than I can count
I'm not going to claim credit for someone else's writing or try and paraphrase, but this sums up what I'm trying to say.
For biologists, there is no relevant difference between microevolution and macroevolution. Both happen in the same way and for the same reasons, so there is no real reason to differentiate them. When biologists do use different terms, it is simply for descriptive reasons.
When creationists use the terms, however, it is for ontological reasons —- this means that they are trying to describe two fundamentally different processes. The essence of what constitutes microevolution is, for creationists, different from the essence of what constitutes macroevolution. Creationists act as if there is some magic line between microevolution and macroevolution, but no such line exists as far as science is concerned. Macroevolution is merely the result of a lot of microevolution over a long period of time.
My point is not to dispute religion or change your religious belief. It is just to preserve the ability for science to be science. And actually for most of the last century the two existed side by side no problem.
I think there should be heavier push back by the scientific community. I'm talking billboards, advertisements, and higher standards for science teachers. We must be respectful but we also must state in no uncertain terms that opinions hold no weight in the world of facts.
So shall we post Richard Dawkins' statement that we don't have all of these intermediaries because becoming fossilized is like hitting the lottery, or shall we post a picture of 20 straight intermediaries, which would contradict Dawkins' statement... Shall we post the claims of scientists that are lumpers, or shall we post the claims of scientists that are splitters... There are a lot of problems with your proposal. The scientific community's own divisions would cause quite a war on what goes up on the billboard.
My friend, you never replied to my argument on "Did Jesus Hide Dinosaur Bones in the Ground to Test Our Faith"?
For your reference, here it is:
Fossilization takes an improbable event that has less chance of happening than winning the lottery.
Yes, this is true. However it is only true for each individual organism. If you take into account the number of organisms that have died, you will end up with a lot of fossils. However, there is no guarantee you will be able to find a sample of everything.
This is why we haven't got a complete fossil record.
At least that was Richard Dawkins answer for why the fossil record lacks all of these intermediaries theists demand.
The fossil record that we do have is full of transitional fossils (I'm assuming this is what you meant by intermediaries?)
Here are a few examples. I'll link the article for you at the end.
-Most fossil giraffes have short necks and today's have long necks, but anatomist Nikos Solounias of the New York Institute of Technology's New York College of Osteopathic Medicine is preparing a description of a giraffe fossil, Bohlinia, with a neck that is intermediate in length.
-Tiktaalik, aka the fishibian or the fishapod, is a large scaled fish that shows a perfect transition between fins and feet, aquatic and land animals. It had fish-like scales, as well as fish-like fin rays and jaw and mouth elements, but it had a shortened skull roof and mobile neck to catch prey, an ear that could hear in both land and water, and a wrist joint that is like those seen in land animals.
-Scientists know that mastodons, mammoths and elephants all share a common ancestor, but it gets hard to tell apart some of the earliest members of this group, called proboscideans, going back to fossils from the Oligocene epoch (33.7 million years ago to 23.8 million years ago). The primitive members of this group can be traced back to what Prothero calls "the ultimate transitional fossil," Moeritherium, from the late Eocene of Egypt. It looked more like a small hippo than an elephant and probably lacked a long trunk, but it had short upper and lower tusks, the teeth of a primitive mastodon and ear features found only in other proboscideans.
And then we magically see 10 intermediaries on a chart.
The intermediaries we cannot find can still be charted using educated guesswork. We have the start point and the end point, and we often have at least one transitional fossil. So, scientists can normally make a good guess, which may or may not be disproven when the rest of the fossils are unearthed.
That's the second time I've seen you use the same stupid fallacy. Becoming fossilized might be like "winning the lottery", with the exception that, since there are billions of animals, there are billions of chances to win. Most weeks people win the lottery. Most weeks animals are fossilized. What is difficult to understand about that?
So your explanation is that, yes, it is like winning the lottery? That's essentially what your statement says...and of course, we have millions of fossils (most still in the ground), so it's absolutely correct.
When you say we must be respectful in the case of religion why would you think that ?
Religion keeps people fearful, disregards intelligence, curtails liberty and creativity and celebrates death. Religion has polluted our earth more than coal or nuclear waste ever could. Religion does not deserve any respect , where I'm from religion demonised those who were different and deliberately censored and punished free thinkers , it had influence from the top down and yielded its power with a fist of iron ; thankfully now this is in the past and the church no longer holds powers like it once did .
Scientific illiteracy continues unabated in Muslim dominated countries and such ignorance is fully supposrted by the rulers of some of these dreadfully backward countries .
Religion offers no respect because it goes against our human nature by telling us we are worthless, unclean and deserve punishment for having done nothing wrong.
It offers no proof. With religion evidence is undesirable because it would remove the need for faith.
Try to use your noggin, Dermot...you are arguing against your own life, demanding your own death. Somebody has you working against yourself, fooling you into thinking you are protecting yourself...and that somebody is not God. God wants you to come into agreement with Him regarding your sins, to admit your guilt, to know His offer of mercy so you can be saved and have eternal life. All your foaming at the mouth getting mad at me and insulting God is only keeping you separated from God who loves you and is the only one who can save you.
All the evils you are talking about and blaming religion, trying to implicate what you call "Christianity" is all about Catholicism which has always tortured and killed real Christians like myself.
All the evils you are talking about and blaming religion, trying to implicate what you call "Christianity" is all about Catholicism which has always tortured and killed real Christians like myself.
Are you aware that Catholics are Christians too? Because it seems like you are not.
Before I read your posts, you need to learn some manners and show you can act like a man without acting like a punk cry baby.......and somehow I think it will be a long time or never before that happens
Yeah, you keep denying you read my posts, but the problem is you've got to get past them to reach the dispute button.
you need to learn some manners
You need to learn that manners are a two way street, my friend. You scream at people and call then names all day long. Then, for some unknown reason, expect them to be polite when they reply.
Religion is one of the main causes of such gross ignorance from the restriction of stem cell research to keeping women from basic healthcare due to these wildly irresponsible "personhood" bills, all because some imaginary supernatural being might get offended.
Schools that teach children that creationism over what is scientific fact as in Evolution all because they refuse to acknowledge that they may be wrong because of their religious beliefs .
Irresponsible religious loudmouths take up air time bashing science and all it stands for thus impeding progress to force their narrow world view .
How do we cure it ? I don't know we are in the year 2017 and people still believe in pusedoscience as in crystal healing , aura reading , astrology, astral projection , aromatherapy and the sad list goes on and on
Yes indeed ban and burn all books .... wait except the bible which claims that a man and a woman lived in a magical garden 🌳🌳🌳🌳 and the bold woman devoured an apple 🍎 after being tempted by a talking serpent 🐍 this so enraged a ghost 👻 called god 🦄 that he sent his son😇 down to earth by impregnating a Palestinian virgin 💃so that he could be born ⚡️ so that he could die on a cross ➕ for our sins before we were born so we could live with him in heaven 👻☁️☁️☁️☁️
Evolution is a belief which is totally unnecessary for true science. It's a waste of time, the time spent promoting evolution could be much better spent conducting true scientific research and application.
You have to be retarded if you think you cannot be a scientist without believing in evolution. Bill Nye pushes that garbage propaganda on children and Bill Nye should be completely banned from any public school or publicly supported work.
Sure. you can be a biologically ignorant scientist, but evolution is a vital part of biology - and for a biologist to not understand that part of reality is a huge problem.
Evolution is useless for biology. There is nothing in biological science which requires belief in evolution. The same goes for all of the sciences.
Evolution is a useless totally unnecessary waste of time which hinders biological research, and in some cases practically causes research to cease....like when evolutionary biologists declared "junk DNA" is proof of evolution and were happy to stop trying to figure out what the "junk" is doing there. Thankfully, a group or real biologists composed of both non-believers in evolution as well as believers in evolution continued the thankless job of studying what appeared to be "junk" DNA and they began to uncover the mystery of it's function which, last I read on it, appears to play a role in chemical makeup or transmission in the cell....you can find out about it if you read on it, but there is no such thing as "junk DNA" like the goofy evolutionists used as a phony trophy of "evidence of evolution" and wasted uncounted millions of dollars and hours publishing their "discovery" and promoting it while getting funded by suckers who want to believe in evolution.
There is nothing in biological science which requires belief in evolution.
There is nothing in biological science which requires belief in creationism.
The same goes for all of the sciences.
The same goes for all of the sciences.
Evolution is a useless totally unnecessary waste of time which hinders biological research, and in some cases practically causes research to cease
That's just irretrievably stupid, evolution and the study of biology are inseparable.
there is no such thing as "junk DNA" like the goofy evolutionists used as a phony trophy of "evidence of evolution" and wasted uncounted millions of dollars and hours publishing their "discovery" and promoting it while getting funded by suckers who want to believe in evolution.
It's true that "junk DNA" has been used to promote the evolutionary model but it's not like all the research on the subject was just wasted trying to use it to prove evolution and accepting it as more than just "junk DNA" doesn't disprove evolution at all. It's a lot more complicated then your puny christian brain can comprehend, there is such a thing as "non-coding DNA" but a lot of the "junk DNA" or supposed non coding DNA has a function that is unknown or is actually a back up file of sorts for certain genes. And yes there are actually gene remnants that are dormant from back when we where a different species so "junk DNA" actually does disprove creationism.
Who said it was necessary to believe in creation to study biology?
You do not have to believe that God created the heavens and the earth and all that is in them. Correct.
You do not have to believe in God for scientific studies. Correct.
If you think it is necessary to believe in evolution to study biology, then it's you who is stupid.
Evolutionists virtually shut down research on DNA by declaring it was mostly junk and proof of evolution. Evolutionary belief is a hindrance to scientific investigation, always has been and always will be, it's a waste of time and money......and it's money which fuels it. There is no such thing as "junk DNA". Real scientists, both evolutionary and creationist, are finding the purpose of what belligerent do-nothing evolutionist declared to be junk...and they still have trouble letting go of the "junk DNA" mantra because they are too proud to admit they were wrong and a hindrance to science as they wasted a lot of time and money promoting their "discovery of junk DNA".
We were not a different species. Maybe you used to be a monkey, I have always been a man.
Wow, what's next, is a black person going to call me a nigger?
Evolutionists virtually shut down research on DNA
Wrong, it's mostly evolutionists who are researching DNA.
Evolutionary belief is a hindrance to scientific investigation
You need to stop spending your time in christian echo chambers and expand your horizons, you are the one trying to push your beliefs instead of contributing to scientific investigation.
it's a waste of time and money......and it's money which fuels it.
Yes it is...wait I thought you where talking about the church, never mind.
There is no such thing as "junk DNA"
It's not that it doesn't exist, it's just that some of it actually does have a purpose we don't understand or does code but is dormant.
Maybe you used to be a monkey, I have always been a man.
Whether you like it or not we are both apes who are related to monkeys.
You are stupid, you know that? You do not need to believe in evolution to pursue scientific investigation or application. If you think you have to believe in evolution in order to practice scientific work, you're mentally impaired.
Change the education system from mere memorization exercises and political/corporate propaganda to one that teaches reason and logic and critical thinking. Blow up the kabbah and raid the vatican and destroy all religion. Stop brain damaging everyone with high fructose corn syrup and aluminum. Fly around the world in an aircraft carrier full of books written by Richard Dawkins and drop them in the middle of cities.
Change the education system from mere memorization exercises and political/corporate propaganda to one that teaches reason and logic and critical thinking.
The huge difficulty with this is that the number of stupid/ignorant/stubborn people vastly outnumber the amount of reasonable people. So, changing the education system (which absolutely needs to happen) is much easier said than done considering the overwhelming majority of the people who teach the next generations in society through public education are imbeciles, and the parents of the children themselves are overwhelmingly imbeciles (this is how the current system is in place to begin with). Also, the majority of adults are so attached to their infantile superstitious beliefs that they think learning science is "dry", "scary", "cold", "devoid of any deep meaning/feeling" and don't want their kids to learn it either for these reasons. Furthermore, the leaders of the business world and governments (the powerful classes) have a vested interested in keeping the populace misinformed, uneducated, unintelligent, conditioned toward obedience, ect.
As of right now, the education system is so bad and the adults are so stupid/ignorant/arrogant that they can't even let the kids come in to school and watch credible lectures, documentaries, OpenCourseware or point them in the right direction with people to look up, book recommendations, the fundamental questions that any given topic is exploring , ect. The kids would be naturally drawn to this information if they were exposed to it, they simply are not exposed to it because there is an obscurantism at work that is pervasive in our society (and world wide). Instead, in the current system, children growing up through their teenage years into young adulthood are subjected to a perpetual firehose of bullshit through the "education" system and the "mature" adults in our societies.
the number of stupid/ignorant/stubborn people vastly outnumber the amount of reasonable people
I know, how are we ever going to make it?
the majority of adults are so attached to their infantile superstitious beliefs that they think learning science is "dry", "scary", "cold", "devoid of any deep meaning/feeling" and don't want their kids to learn it
The reason for this is because they don't even know what science is, what it's for or how to use it, which is almost laughably because they where taught by a majority of parents who are programmed with the same superstitions and are scientifically illiterate. We are in difficult times because we cannot allow people to program their children with this primitive mindset but we cannot force them to teach their children a certain way either without becoming giant sacks of tyrannical intestinal discharge. The only way to deal with this is to blast emissions of intelligence waves in every direction and hope it reaches as many people as possible.
the leaders of the business world and governments (the powerful classes) have a vested interested in keeping the populace misinformed, uneducated, unintelligent, conditioned toward obedience, ect
For these institutions to exist in the first place requires a scientifically illiterate populace.
The kids would be naturally drawn to this information if they were exposed to it
The types of things kids and people in general are drawn to is a double edged sword, there are plenty of footholds for things such as consumerism, superstition, and conformity as well as things such as curiosity, social and environmental awareness, and rational thought.
perpetual firehose of bullshit
This is one of the biggest problems on earth, how do we silence the perpetual firehose of bullshit and replace it with a constant down pouring rain of logic? The firehose of bullshit is a man made implement designed to saturate those who are exposed to it with ignorance, it can spray you much harder than the rain usually can, and there can be many replicas spraying many different people in the face, and someone will always be working behind the hose trying to spray you in just the right places. But unlike the firehose of bullshit the rain of reason and truth is not man made, it can rain on everyone from every direction because it is a tangible reality of nature just like the clouds above us, and it is all around is, so once everyone gets rained on they will not fear the firehose of bullshit, because they will already be soaking wet with something that follows naturally from the universe around them rather than something that weaseled it's way into their brain through constant reinforcement and was designed to hose them down every time they formed a thought that was outside the culturally reinforced paradigm
Honestly, I don't know (and it is very troubling/concerning). Even if you take this site as a microcosm of the larger societal context, there are only a handful of people or so that have some real scientific literacy to varying degrees (or at least the overwhelming minority of people, to be generous) while the others (even after being exposed to a level of sources/arguments that should be sufficient to "wake them up" and get "the ball rolling") remain "in the dark". That is, even if a person on this site created a thread/"debate" that was just an authoritative outline/list to major topics/discoveries in science with links to proper sources, prominent figures in science (both contemporary and before our time), and with instructions on how a person who is unfamiliar with these topics could/should best navigate this influx of information so as to integrate this into their operative worldview/lifestyle, this project would still be doomed to fail from the off (in my view) and would not fundamentaly change the literacy distribution that I stated earlier. I understand that people like FromWithin are effectively hopeless, but I would think that others have the capacity to "come around" and it is not at all clear to me how you would go about achieving that when initial and continued exposure fails.
We are in difficult times because we cannot allow people to program their children with this primitive mindset but we cannot force them to teach their children a certain way either without becoming giant sacks of tyrannical intestinal discharge. The only way to deal with this is to blast emissions of intelligence waves in every direction and hope it reaches as many people as possible.
Could not agree more. The big problem with this however is the argument/statement I made above (that is, even if intelligence waves do reach people, it in no way grantees that it will be effective).
The types of things kids and people in general are drawn to is a double edged sword, there are plenty of footholds for things such as consumerism, superstition, and conformity as well as things such as curiosity, social and environmental awareness, and rational thought.
I agree, although I would add that people have been strongly primed to believe that magical type thinking is "wonderful", "beautiful", "interesting", "hopeful", "fun" ect. due to things like Sana Claus, Easter Bunny, Superhero tv/comics, Harry Potter type Sci-Fi, ect. ect. Although these things in-and-of-themselves are not harmful (and can be enriching in many ways), when combined with not be expose to the real world, how it actually is and the methods by which we have determined our limited range of knowledge thus far, then the magic show becomes extremely pernicious and confines ones worldview to a Disney channel snow globe of a world.
For these institutions to exist in the first place requires a scientifically illiterate populace.
Exactly.
This is one of the biggest problems on earth, how do we silence the perpetual firehose of bullshit and replace it with a constant down pouring rain of logic?
Agreed with everything you said including and after this point. The question on how to get there is fantastically difficult for a whole host of reasons, part of which we have already discussed here.
it is not at all clear to me how you would go about achieving that when initial and continued exposure fails.
Some people are just too stupid and too indoctrinated, but with a lot of them it just takes a shit load of time and profusions of information before they finally get it. You also have to meet them half way a lot of the time and try to work your way into the truth. What I mean by this is that if you really want to change someones mind who has been programmed to be retarded, you have to be understanding of their retardation and even pretend to be open minded towards it when you know it's bullshit. You have to approach them using their language as well and give them new intellectual vocabulary, basically speak to them within the framework of their puny mind's conditioning before you try to introduce a concept which goes against their programming template and first introduce them to the thought process and the reasoning which leads to that conclusion, other wise their brain will react like it's being invaded by aliens and they won't have the intellectual tools to see where you are coming from.
even if intelligence waves do reach people, it in no way grantees that it will be effective
What we need is RBE communities and "resorts" to emerge and gradually convert everyone, these communities would serve as both a beacon of intelligence waves for the outside world and an environment conducive to curiosity creativity and co-operation where both adults and children can be deprogrammed from the mental diseases of modern society.
a Disney channel snow globe of a world
That brings back memories of when I was ten years old and I was over at my highly religious third/second cousins house, they had another family over and my younger cousins all watched Disney, but the other family's mother thought Disney was satanic because Walt is a freemason, so they got into a giant argument about Disney and the illuminati and then my cousin's mother's husband finally admits "I'm actually a mason myself, they are a god-fearing fraternity" and the other family gathered their children and stormed out of the house, the mother called him a "luciferian pig" on the way out and slammed the door.
Some people are just too stupid and too indoctrinated, but with a lot of them it just takes a shit load of time and profusions of information before they finally get it. You also have to meet them half way a lot of the time and try to work your way into the truth. What I mean by this is that if you really want to change someone's mind who has been programmed to be retarded, you have to be understanding of their retardation and even pretend to be open minded towards it when you know it's bullshit. You have to approach them using their language as well and give them new intellectual vocabulary, basically speak to them within the framework of their puny mind's conditioning before you try to introduce a concept which goes against their programming template and first introduce them to the thought process and the reasoning which leads to that conclusion, other wise their brain will react like it's being invaded by aliens and they won't have the intellectual tools to see where you are coming from.
Agreed. Also, after people hit a certain age there is going to be a level of courage required of people in order to break free of the Disney Channel Snow globe world for which they have always resided. Therefore, IRL, when I know that I am talking to someone who clearly doesn't understand even basic science/philosophy/history, ect. (particularly science for obvious reasons), which is more often than not (even while studying Math/Physics formally, many people still don't know what it is about/what they are doing, they may just be attracted to the internal logic or want a teaching job, ect.) I am very cognizant of that dynamic and choose my words carefully (because the information has the power to flip someone's life upside down nearly on-spot). I typically proceed by a similar procedure that you submit, that is "meet them half-way".
Now, when you are discussing relatively minor, benign topics this seems to work well since it is not enough information to "bridge-a-gap" and flip their life upside down. However, I have tried "red pill" moments with some people before that I had built up quite a bit of rapport with (through discussing "fun facts", ect. that they liked to learn about, discuss, ect.) and it has generally not went well. For instance, in one case, a school friend of mine some years ago (in college) who was a Mechanical Engineering major (he was 25 years old at the time), we were just beginning the basic technical courses together (e.i. Calc sequence, Physics, Chem, ect.) since Science and Engineering majors have a lot of overlap in the beginning. Since he is an Engineering major (and talked sensibly about some issues) I thought he would take an interest in Science (and generally, what it is we are learning in school and why it is important). So, I would talk to him about "fun facts" and provide a different angle on science than he had been accustomed to from schooling, which he seemed to think was awesome and would be eager to discuss these topics with me. After doing this for about several months, I finally told him that I am transfer to another school (Uni.) after that semester and that I knew a lot more than I was leading on and that since he seems so interested and open-minded about Science, critical of religion, and was critical of society in many ways, I would be willing to talk to him about the bigger picture that I am holding back from him with the warning that is very powerful stuff, there is no way for me to prepare you for the type mental shift that would follow, and that once you know you can never unknow (e.i. enough information to bridge-a-gap). It was essentially a "red pill, blue pill" moment from The Matrix in which he chose the red pill by stating that he wanted to know and that he could handle it. I decided Evolution was the best place to start with the most impact and started to talk directly about the theory. I didn't even get a full minute into speaking about it when something I said clearly "clicked" with him, his eyes went really wide, mouth opened wide, turned his head slightly to the side, and instinctively took a step back. I stopped talking about, he said he definitely never heard that before, clearly looked deeply perturbed, so I simply told him that there is way more where that came from, wrote down a moderate sized list of people/lectures/books to look up in order to explore it further if he wanted (I forgot to give him my contact information). He said thanks for doing it for him (although he was clearly shaken up). After that, he clearly started avoiding me, I ran into him several times afterward, he clearly looked deeply shaken up and trying to hold-it-together, he still saw me as a friend although he was now very intimidated by the challenge the information I had was to his worldview (he almost definitely looked into some of the people I wrote down for him like Richard Dawkins for instance). He didn't seem to want to talk about it, so I dropped it for "casual", meaningless type talk for the brief interactions I had with him after that and soon it was the end of the semester and I transferred to my new/main University. I hope that guy was able to work things out and is in a good place now but I really don't know how he took it in the long-term frankly (especially with nobody to talk to about it, he was also newly married and his wife was definitely clueless also initially).
I use this anecdote to illustrate that there is a profound difficulty in uprooting a persons worldview/identity with basic scientific literacy (particularly as they get older) and it is not "casual talk" (because the indoctrination runs so deep and is all they have ever known). It shows how abusive it is to subject children to the perpetual firehose of bullshit for the entirety of their formative years and that there is a lot more to it then getting people to understand it, they need to become comfortable with the truths of reality. The comfortability would not even be an issue if they were never exposed to all the bullsh't, but now that they have, it is a substantial related issue that is inextricably bound to the topic of how to promote scientific literacy.
Wow, you could just see the cognitive dissonance activating in that guy's brain from his facial expression, almost like he was going into "zombie mode". One clear way to know that our education system is fucked is that you can obtain a PHD in science and still live in the snow globe. I once knew a man who had a PHD in biology who was a young earth creationist. He could have got a much better job with his degree but instead he became a school gym teacher because he didn't want to teach evolution or have anything to do with it. That's one example of how the fire globe of snow hose bull shit can mentally fuck people up for life and hold them back, even when they had the potential to be highly intelligent.
Exactly. Like you said, "We are in difficult times because we cannot allow people to program their children with this primitive mindset but we cannot force them to teach their children a certain way either without becoming giant sacks of tyrannical intestinal discharge." Even people who have the potential to be intelligent (or highly-intelligent) and make real contributions to society/progress are being reduced to half-mentally disabled, chimp-human hybrids that are destroying society/the upcoming generations (and it is sad/alarming because I have seen a lot of this at Uni. particularly in the technical subjects). The overwhelming bulk of the adult population are oblivious to just how breathtakingly unrespectable people they are for indoctrinated their kids into their bullsh't and how they comport themselves in life more broadly. I do draw the line somewhere with my hesitancy to invoke the facts of reality however. The guy I talked about before was an Engineering major who basically just wants to get a high paying job, and a good bulk of the Math majors just want to teach Math in the public school system, a good chunk of Biology majors just "like animals", Chemistry some chunk took an interest in the "cool" chemical reaction experiments and want high paying jobs, but if you are a Physics major and your spewing your firehose of bullshit around I have effectively zero tolerance for that, they better "wake up" quickly or get the f'ck out of Physics (it is one of the last true bastions of where intellectualism is "cool").
One clear way to know that our education system is fucked is that you can obtain a PHD in science and still live in the snow globe
Exactly. You could have a PhD in Biology (or any other STEM discipline) from Princeton (or some other elite school) and still be a chimp-human hybrid that lacks the requisite critical thinking skills that would allow them to escape the confines of the snow globe for which they were raised.
A lot of the sane Professors are cowed into silence due to the hierarchy of the University system. That is, if a Biology professor wants to talk with candor about Evolution (not in the "textbook" way, but in the real way that "hits home" with the students who are mostly very young still), then en masse, he is going to experience a similar situation as to what I outlined with my former friend but with 5 separate classrooms each full of 25-200+ students (depending on the course) every semester. Now, they are immediately going to run into a huge amount of trouble, because some good percentage of these kids are bound to tell their parents about it, they and/or their parents are going to complain/issue a report to the "higher-ups" in the administration (who have no understanding nor interest with what the Professors know or the nature of the subjects, while also fancying themselves as "intelligent" because they are "successful" in the business world so they are very stubborn), the Professor very likely could/almost definitely lose their job (that they went to school for over a decade plus post-doc position just to be sufficiently credentialed to get the job). Therefore, this creates a "safe" environment for the ignorant/stupid people to get "educated" and "earn" their degree without really understanding an iota of the subject. Furthermore, the students who are sane and really want to know about the true nature of the topics in detail are "missing out" because the teachers intentionally never say enough to "bridge-a-gap" for their own sake. Therefore, you would have to do a lot of extracurricular studies in addition to the formal studies just in order to keep pace with the reality of what is being taught. However, since they are undergrads, the whole point in the schooling in the first place is to receive proper mentorship from a qualified instructor, thus they do not necessarily know where to look in order get to the truth of the matter and keep pace. In short, it is hopelessly f'cked up unless society changes first.
it is one of the last true bastions of where intellectualism is "cool"
Intellectualism is the main thing that makes humans special, our intelligence is what has kept us alive this long, so people who don't see it as important or can't use it are almost literally half-mentally disabled, chimp-human hybrids, they have literally been mind fucked into a subhuman state of cognition.
the students who are sane and really want to know about the true nature of the topics in detail are "missing out" because the teachers intentionally never say enough to "bridge-a-gap"
If those cowardly sniveling butt hole fornicators, both the professors and their "higher ups" would just attack with even more facts and logic instead of bowing to the mighty power of hurt feelings and stupid anachronistic superstitious beliefs, then the world would be a much better place. The right wingers always talk about PC culture but one PC problem in the west is that we're afraid to thoroughly criticize and attack three of the most stupid things in the universe; Judaism, Christianity and Islam. Which all do their part to fuck up the world to a large extent. We need more people in the schools and universities who will just lay out the evidence and say "it's a scientific fact that your religion is wrong, now take some omega 3 or something and get back to work"
Intellectualism is the main thing that makes humans special, our intelligence is what has kept us alive this long, so people who don't see it as important or can't use it are almost literally half-mentally disabled, chimp-human hybrids, they have literally been mind fucked into a subhuman state of cognition
Exactly, agreed. That is why I call them "Chimp-Human Hybrids", because Homo Sapiens living in the 21st century fails to truly capture it. From another thread about Marijuana, we briefly discussed Brain Development in Humans/Homo Sapiens and that you do not truly acquire the unique characteristics that make us "Human" until you are in your low to mid twenties or so when frontal lobe development is completed. Now, there are many factors that can potentially "derail" this development such as excessive alcohol abuse, chronic stress, social isolation, other types of drug abuse, ect. I think that due to the way our society is structured, a huge bulk of peoples brains are not becoming properly/fully developed and confine them to a stage of quasi-Homo Sapiens (e.i. more like an adolescent or quasi-adolescent brain) for the entirety of their life. Now, it would be highly probable that said people are unable to recognize the failure of their brains to fully mature since their mind-space would have complete continuity from their adolescents-young adulthood-adulthood, and simply think that "this is how things are" while failing to realize that a "shift" should have been felt at some point in their twenties to thirty that is significantly different than that of the teenage mind/brain.
If those cowardly sniveling butt hole fornicators, both the professors and their "higher ups" would just attack with even more facts and logic instead of bowing to the mighty power of hurt feelings and stupid anachronistic superstitious beliefs, then the world would be a much better place.
Agreed. (But again, the "higher-ups" are imbeciles just like the overwhelming majority of people caught up in the popular culture and are not at all "on-the-same-page" as the professors, even though they have power over the professors)
The right wingers always talk about PC culture but one PC problem in the west is that we're afraid to thoroughly criticize and attack three of the most stupid things in the universe; Judaism, Christianity and Islam. Which all do their part to fuck up the world to a large extent.
Exactly. The "PC" problem goes both ways however by far the largest "PC" problem is that of trespassing on taboo when discussing peoples "sacrosanct" religious beliefs (as well as the reality of human development and factors that derail proper development). Now, the profound problem with this is that these religions are supposed to be comprehensive guides for all aspects of ones life, from the origin of the Universe to morality to family structure, ect. Therefore, if you talk about anything of any real significance, it is going to inevitably come into contact with religion. Furthermore, religion does not even provide mediocre answers, it provides absolute dog sh't, Iron Age answers in now a 21st century world. In the overwhelming majority of cases, religion is in zero-sum conflict with the facts (or probable truths) about reality and people who do not have their head up their ass have a high burden of responsibility and need to marshal an appropriate intellectual and emotional response by calling a spade a spade on this issue or else we are doomed to perpetual ignorance/stupidity/mental and emotional instability/ect. as a species and will ceaselessly remain in the "Dark Ages" (of which is completely unnecessary).
I think that due to the way our society is structured, a huge bulk of peoples brains are not becoming properly/fully developed and confine them to a stage of quasi-Homo Sapiens
There are many factors which go into this other than religion and the many other cultural programming and indoctrination systems. The average human is deficient in many nutrients and exposed to toxins as well, everything from the quality of the air and water to the preservatives and sugar overloads in the grocery store are contributing to the arrested development. There is a complex break down of human health at work which stems from many correlating factors. First of all humans have only just recently started to be exposed to so much sugar and many of the food sources we rely on, particularly grains, which contribute to the sugar deluge and damage your teeth and your gut flora, processed foods and glyphosates (pesticides) also damage your gut flora. And when you have damaged gut flora you absorb less nutrients and more toxins can get through, which get into the blood stream and can have a cumulative effect on multiple bodily systems including the brain. Many modern humans are sick because their gut flora is sick, and there is a massive problem with nutrient deficiencies because the soil is depleted and contaminated in many areas and because the animals used for meat and dairy by industrial agriculture are malnourished and sick because they are fed unnatural diets and kept in unsanitary immobilizing conditions, plus people don't know how to eat anymore, and don't understand that different haplogroups are adapted to different diets based on the food sources that where more scarce or abundant in the region they are from. One example of pure disgustingness is that the common milk carton at the grocery store contains trace amounts of pus and feces due to the unsanitary conditions and the sickness of the animals, the milk also lacks a lot of the nutritional value of healthy cow's milk due to the not very cow friendly low grass and high grain diet, plus the pasturization process actually destroys enzymes and fatty acids.
the "higher-ups" are imbeciles just like the overwhelming majority of people caught up in the popular culture and are not at all "on-the-same-page" as the professors, even though they have power over the professors
That's one of the biggest failures of how society is structured, scientific illiterates can make decisions they are not qualified to make and meddle in things they shouldn't be meddling in because they are successful in things like business and politics.
need to marshal an appropriate intellectual and emotional response by calling a spade a spade on this issue or else we are doomed to perpetual ignorance/stupidity/mental and emotional instability/ect. as a species and will ceaselessly remain in the "Dark Ages"
We should summon all the religious people and all the atheists on this site to a giant multi-stage intellectual battle covering these three topics
1: Evolution vs. creationism.
2: The effect that religion has had on humanity historically.
3: The nature of causality and why God's existence would be a causal paradox and a fundamentally impotent explanation of the universe's creation.
The average human is deficient in many nutrients and exposed to toxins as well, everything from the quality of the air and water to the preservatives and sugar overloads in the grocery store are contributing to the arrested development.
Right. Proper nutrition and environmental factors (e.g. air pollution, ect.) are very important and contributing factors as you point out.
There is a complex break down of human health at work which stems from many correlating factors. First of all humans have only just recently started to be exposed to so much sugar and many of the food sources we rely on, particularly grains, which contribute to the sugar deluge and damage your teeth and your gut flora, processed foods and glyphosates (pesticides) also damage your gut flora. And when you have damaged gut flora you absorb less nutrients and more toxins can get through, which get into the blood stream and can have a cumulative effect on multiple bodily systems including the brain.
Right. I would be interested in any sources you have on this topic. I have only moderately discussed nutrition/diet on this site which is semi-relevant to the actual nutrition aspect (I'm vegan, I was making more of an ethical argument) and would be interested in discussing it further at some point.
That's one of the biggest failures of how society is structured, scientific illiterates can make decisions they are not qualified to make and meddle in things they shouldn't be meddling in because they are successful in things like business and politics.
Agreed. And that is because the "successful" business/politics types actually believe that they are as intelligent or more intelligent/informed than the professors. One of the big problems with stupid/ignorant people is that they are clueless to how much they do not know and are therefore way overconfident in their own abilities.
We should summon all the religious people and all the atheists on this site to a giant multi-stage intellectual battle covering these three topics
1: Evolution vs. creationism.
2: The effect that religion has had on humanity historically.
3: The nature of causality and why God's existence would be a causal paradox and a fundamentally impotent explanation of the universe's creation
Discoveries in science should be taken with a pinch of salt. When I started medical school (and subsequently dropped out) I was told that 95% of what we learn in the first year will be false by the 6th. What percentage would that be after 100 years? 1000? million? Despite that, I agree with you that believing scientific theory "makes the most sense". However, one has to recognise that in the scheme of the insight it gives us into our reality, it could be only marginally less false than whatever a religious fanatic spews.
Scientific literacy isn't going to save anyone from becoming slaves to technology.
It isn't going to stop people from herded by the robots and exploited like cattle by the technocratic elites.
There is a lot of really nefarious things that go along with technology. Things that have already been planned and are being executed. I think most people would be shocked if they knew the intended purpose of the internet.
Well, lets focus on the good anyway. Probably the greatest advancement in the history of the free press.
Really though, scientific literacy is a good thing. What that means to me is being educated on the scientific method, and how to tell the difference between performing scientific experimentation and simply believing what you read because the people who wrote it claim to have performed science.
It isn't science or knowledge really until you know. Isn't that what science is?
People argue about basic things, like whether or not the Earth is round or flat. I've always heard that the world is round. Then you get all these people making convincing sounding arguments about how the Earth is flat.
You know, to be honest? I never really knew whether the Earth was round or flat. I have not personally performed the necessary science to make that assessment. I DON'T KNOW.
Guess its time to build a giant rocket. We're gonna find out if the moon really is made of cheese, and whether the Earth is round or flat!
