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I Am Now An Atheist
I am an atheist. I no longer believe in God. It may seem strange that I would suddenly not believe in God but there is a long story behind it.
It all started one day when I was at my friends house. He had bought some copies of The Simpsons DVDs. Such a thing was forbidden in my house as my family was very religious.
Me and my friend decided to watch it whenever I came round to his house. I'm lucky his mum didn't tell my mum that we were watching it otherwise I would probably never be allowed there again.
One day we came across an episode where the church gets destroyed so they have build a new one full of advertisements. Lisa is disgusted by this so she goes out to try and find a different religion. Eventually she came across Buddhism.
I hardly knew about other religions. I knew that they existed and some of their very basic beliefs but I was taught and believed that they were evil and blasphemous. I hardly had a concept of atheism. The Simpsons introduced the concept of not believing in God to me. I thought it was blasphemous but I decided to go against my religious instincts as I loved watching The Simpsons.
So in that episode about Buddhism it showed many of the different aspects about the religion. It fascinated me and so I decided to learn more about it using my friend's computer.
The next day I couldn't stop thinking about Buddhism. I thought about joining it but I thought that it was a terrible thought as Christianity must be the true religion and I apologised to Jesus for thinking about it.
A few weeks later I watched a movie about Islam at school. It didn't really show Islam in a positive light but I was still fascinated by it. This time I thought that maybe Christianity isn't the true religion and decided to follow Islam. Luckily, the local library had a Koran so I would go there after school to read it. I didn't let my parents know I was following Islam.
A few months later I went back to believing in the Christian God. Why? I can't remember. I just had a strange change in heart. As a Christian I still thought about other religions. I couldn't help it. It made me feel ashamed.
I have a brother who is an atheist. He was 21 at the time all this was happening. Surprisingly my parents haven't disowned him. They do try to convert him but they accentaccept him still. I often argued with him about religion. I usually answered his questions easily but there was one I just couldn't give an honest answer to: If god exists then why is there suffering? I said because of sin. That wasn't a genuine answer though. I just didn't know. When I asked my pastors, teachers or parents they just gave really confusing answers (I don't think they were too sure themselves).
Eventually the thought of God not existing crept into my mind. It kept getting bigger as time went on. I tried to suppress this “evil" thought. Nothing worked.
One day I decided to look at arguments against God. I didn't want to fuel my forbidden thoughts but I had some desperation to look at the arguments. They didn't help my case.
I eventually found createdebate. I decided to join and preach hoping to be able to reconcile with myself and find my certainty for god. I felt like if I didn't have god I wouldn't be happy and I told that to others as well: No god, No happiness. I pretty much put on a character. I made myself look like someone who was absolutely certain that god was real. I wasn't sure and it made me feel very insecure (yes Dermot). I thought that preaching about god would help me build my faith back up. It did the opposite. I saw so many arguments I didn't see before. It was the last straw. I have decided to just say goodbye to religion. Honestly, last night I had the most peaceful sleep I had ever had. I realised I was free. There wasn't someone constantly watching me. I could do whatever I wanted. So many realisations came to me. I remembered all the times that my prayers weren't answered. I asked to feel god's presence. No answer. I asked to know what I should do with my life (I had been confused about this for a very long time). No answer, even though the Book of James says that if you ask to know god will tell you. I asked for friends. If there was an answer it came about a year late. I asked for many other things and it never came. I asked many times without any doubt. But there was never an answer. “Ask and you shall receive" is what I heard and read many times. But it is not true. I am actually feeling so much better now. I feel free like a bird. I can do what I want without worrying about being judged by someone. I can still be moral. My brother is moral. I guess morals are subjective to a degree but this is now my new philosophy in life: Do what you want as long as it doesn't bring harm to others.
I would like to give a big thank you to all atheists on here that have helped with this. I am now free and still happy, if not more happy, without god.
Well done an incredibly brave decision and you can stand on your own two feet and face the world anew not having to feel ,guilty worried or insecure trying to sustain a belief in a fiction .
If you want to watch something to reaffirm how right you are in your decision watch this great show and observe how every argument beliefs have is shredded by pure logic .....
Thank you so much for your words of kindness! And thanks so much for the playlist! Looks like it could be a real help :). It is great to hear from other atheists, especially when you are surrounded by so many religious people.
You do realize that Hollywood hates Christianity and use most of their sit-coms to tear it down. Did you ever wonder why they so fear Christianity while saying little against other religions such as Islam that has many zealots who support killing innocent people?
For you to listen to the Simpson's and not understand the systemic bigotry against Christianity from so many of these sit-coms, is amazing!
Let me clear up a few things for you.
First off, you now understand why your parents tried to keep their children from being indoctrinated by the bigoted left wing biased media. Your saga is the reason. They love you and wanted to keep you and your impressionable mind from being brainwashed by an insecure self love culture of bigots who can not stand the thought of accountabiulity for one's choices in life.
Your parents realize what this self love world offers you. It offers vinereal diseases, unwed pregnancies, alcoholism, drunk driving, drugs, etc. & few of these are considered anyone's fault.
You said....."Honestly, last night I had the most peaceful sleep I had ever had. I realised I was free. There wasn't someone constantly watching me. I could do whatever I wanted.""I can do what I want without worrying about being judged by someone."
This is what I always say about insecure Progressive bigots. They can not stand hearing any mention of moral values because in their insecure minds, they think we are judging them. You and they are very insecure people.
Listen to your words. You said you can now do whatever you want without a guilty conscience warning you of the consequences of sin.
This anything goes culture feels so good for a time. Those one night hook ups, those drinking parties, those drugs, etc. are so much fun until the day comes when you find out you got some girl pregnant, or you got caught drunk driving and lose your license and your job, or you get hooked on drugs, etc. etc.
I have been on this debate site for a few years now and guess what? The Progressive Atheists hate any mention of moral values. These people on the Left spend their insecure lives trying to insult Chrisitanity because it makes them feel guilty for the many immoral choices they make in their lives.
I'm not saying Christians live perfect lives... they do not. What they do is admit their sins and do not try to condone their sins. They constantly try to better themselves and admit when they fail.
Do you realize how many Simpson episodes involved Lisa pushing her Liberal bigoted indoctrination of our children by making Homer and Christians out to be morons?
Do you remember the All in the family sit-com?
They used the show to label all people on the Right as being bigoted racists like Archie Bunker. The lead character, Archie Bunker, is a loudmouthed, uneducated bigot who believes in every stereotype he has ever heard.
It's all political!!!!!!!! You are basing your life on a bunch of rich hollywood bigoted elites who spend their lives trying to condition people to fear Christianity. They hooked you line and sinker.
This is what Hollywood does! They are total bigots against Christianity. I applaud your parents for trying to keep you from this conditioning. I feel sorry for them that you were so easily swayed. For you to even consider Islam? COME ON! That shows how lost and confused you are.
Do you see the power of Hollywood? They make such entertaining shows and with each episode they have a purposeful agenda to push their political correct bigotry against Christians.
There is a war in this world. A war of evil versus good. Hollywood and the biased Liberal media is the mouthpiece for this selfish world against Christianity.
You asked... "If god exists then why is there suffering?"
I want you to try looking at the big picture of eternity. I want you to see how man's focus is on our short 70 years of life on Earth, while God looks at eternity.
We look at tragedy and ask why did God allow that. So I ask you, if you were God and could see the future of our chidren on Earth. Do you think he would find it so terrible if people died at an early age, and instantly went to heaven, versus a life of the many problems people bring on themselves.
Yes, it is terrible to lose a family member, but for Christians to be honest, their children are in a much better place.
If God were to miraculously keep us all safe from harm, this would no longer be Earth, it would be heaven. That is not how life all plays out. He gave us all free will to choose our life and our eternity. It sounds like you have chosen 70 years of possible misery, especilly if you follow the world's ideals of moral values.
You say you can still be moral without God. Let me tell you about the morals of most of these Atheists who are influencing you.
They support no restriction abortions of viable babies for any reason up till birth. Most of them lack the honesty to admit it. They just vote for the very people keeping it legal. This is the moral values of men without God!
Does that show you the ever changing moral values of a people without faith in God?
Ask yourself why it is that mostly only Christians take a stand against killing our unborn for any reason.
We are not talking life of mother abortions, or other extreme case abortions. We are talking about aborting viable babies for any reason up to birth.
Are you pro life now? If you are, you won't be for long because the Bigoted anti God world will brainwash you to believe killing innocent people is a "CHOICE" and if you speak out against it, you will be labeled a stupid judgemental Zealot that hates women! LOL, the morals of mankind without God is as God says, like rags!
I want to say one last thing. Your parents will always love you, and is why they have tried to keep you on path of Christian vaues so you do not screw up your life with this anything goes self love culture of today.
These people on this site could not care less about your life. YOUR PARENTS DO CARE, BECAUSE THEY LOVE YOU!
These Progressive Atheists on this site have no problems with all the un-wed mothers on welfare. They have no problem with all the abandoned children in broken homes with no fathers.
All they want is what you want. They want to live their no fault anything goes lifestyles without feeling bad about themselves when others try to live moral lives and care about the lost values doing so much damage to our children and culture.
In all my time on this debate site, not one of these Progressives has spoken out to all the harm to our children caused by this self love promiscuous culture.
It's a lie that Godless people hold to many core moral values. When it comes to their lifestyles, our children are expendable. It's all about the me me generation of fun until the fun all comes to an end.
Let me also say that I have no ill feelings towards you no matter what you believe. I have no problem with Atheists who respect Christians.
I speak out against the many bigoted Atheists on this site who constantly create debates to insult Christians, much like the Simpson sit-com constantly does.
PLEASEEEEEEEEE, don't base your life on a sit-com. Look at the world and see the godless culture created by those who hate Christianity. Look at the broken homes and then look at your parent's home.
Look at all the abandoned children with no parents to love them, and then look at the love from your parents. Christians care for the hurting and want to help prevent it. Liberals put bandaides on the hurting families and NEVER address the core reasons for their problems.
To shine the light on the core reasons for our broken homes would be shining a light on them! THAT WILL NEVER HAPPEN AND WHY OUR WELFARE ROLES KEEP GROWING.
Now you can do whatever you feel like doing whenever you feel like doing it because you have made yourself to be the god of you. Now you are a man. Now you can die with pride.
An age reference around the events would be more informative.
As Hindu, I was allowed to look into other religions, and they aren't generally seen as "blasphemy".
In fact, I did have some little prayers answered as a child, but I've later learned about many different biases and fallacies that might lead me to misinterpret things.
Christianity probably is too desperate to let its followers even see beyond the leash. Well, desperation for living always arises in the last days of life.
I accidentally deleted the first version of this which said my age. I was 16 when I first started learning about other religions. Your correct when you say Christianity doesn't let us see beyond the leash. Some families do let their children be more open to the world and other religions. Unfortunately my family kept me trapped in a box. I have been looking at psychology and there are many ways that people can be tricked into thinking that they had a religious experience. Christianity is a dying religion and Christendom is now panicking.
I see you are responding....when I don't respond to your idiotic comments, it's only because I quit reading them since trying to tell you how you can be saved is what Jesus referred to as casting pearls before swine. Isn't that neat how Jesus referred to haters like you as "swine". He had lots of other names for you too. I'm sure you appreciate it.
People in history were punished for not praying to your imaginary deity.
If you're ever punished, you can be let off by praying to your tormentor, the way you pray to your imaginary friends. I doubt it'd matter for you whom you pray to, as long as it keeps you from torture.
Just saying, in case anything happens during your lifetime.
Good to see you are not actually burning in Hell now and only imagining yourself to be enjoying it's fire in your icon pic. You'll have to pardon me for not reading your comments as I might be tempted to try to persuade you that God is good and will save you from Hell but that would be what Jesus refers to as "casting pearls before swine". They will trample the pearls and turn on you and attack.
Yes, fools are very good at fooling themselves and might actually believe they are Christians until they realize they never really believed the gospel and never really repented of their sins.
Very honest account of your personal experience. I had the same thing happen to me over a period of about 1-1\2 years. The glaring difference in my case being that I was not 16 at the time, but rather 70. It could be that you are a good deal more clever than I was at 16 😋
Having seen more than you in the course of my long life, I would like to add one thought. Do not look unkindly on those who believe. It brings them great comfort and great strength at times when they struggle. Many examples of great compassion and kindness have been done by believers. Let them be.
I agree with you. In a little more than a month I will be 80. I am an Atheist and I don't belittle anyone for their beliefs. I have one daughter that's Catholic, one that's Baptist, another that believes more like I do. So be it. I DO spend some time going against those that tell me I'm going to hell, or that THEY set the rules we all must follow, or those that rail against all other religions but their own. I can't be a "creationist" because I look around me at the world, the Universe and what's happening daily and have to say "NAH!" I can't follow a "god" that allows such cruelty in a beautiful world. When people do things good, believers or not, "let them be". When some give credit to a "god" for everything good, and everything bad as ... "God's way" and point to BOTH as "love", again, NAH!
Why do you always choose to forget the other character of the story.
If it is said God is good then you should ask who is bad.
You focus on God and forget the devil. Both sides have a goal to achieve.
God is limited by mans choice in doing good by man's choice. You say bad things happen to people while the good God exists. Have you ever bothered to find out what percentage of those people believe in God or are obeying the laws of God from which you get his goodness? Even jonah a prophet of God got punished by being swallowed by whale for disobeying God. Israel led by joshua lost many battles due to sin of theft(God's own people). If God has a plan for you, you are protected by playing according to the rules of the plan automatically. But if you insist on going against it, then He'd be a gentleman and let you have your independence. Your own independent plan and security.
And there ,the raving devourer becomes happy. Because the only thing protecting you from him was God's plan.
The devil has death traps all over the globe. And if not for God's angel who have an interest in protecting what belongs to God, the devil would need less than a month to wipe out the human race.
And the devil is still persistent.
The beautiful world as you say it wasn't created with the over 5000 types of diseases you know. Its all part of the destructive instruments of the prince of the earth; King of the dark kingdom.
But God is always ready to give a second chance.
There are two different sides so know the difference in their functions.
As long as satan is not chained, cruelty will persist.
We are not in paradise yet where the devil nor his followers are not able to function.
Who says god is good? A book from 2000 years ago. If he exists then he is evil. Only a sociopath could see all this suffering and just sit in their paradise doing nothing about it. There is no good reason for him to have created sin. And what about people who follow him and his “plan" very closely and then get raped and beaten. Was god's plan for them to get raped and beaten? Once again, seems like a sociopath to me. And why did he create the devil? Why does he let him do bad things? And why doesn't he defeat him? He is god right? Why doesn't he chain up satan? And why, if he loves us so much, does he not bring us into his paradise immediately?
Alto , you're dealing with Jeffrey who actually thinks a magician called dynamo is using demonic powers to walk on water so don't expect any rationality .
As I pointed out before god according to the bible commands or takes part in his name infanticide , floods , famine , drought , slavery , abortion , pestillance and is responsible for 2:8 million deaths ( low estimate ) how many did Satan kill ? Satan killed 10 and that was because god made a bet with him ... check it out it's all there in the " good book "
You see most Christians haven't read the bible I have , and I know it back to front
My belief has nothing to do with parents. When i was a kid i could choose not to go church and no one had a problem. Every member of my family(nuclear) goes to a different church.
Christianity is not imposed on us. I can choose to be a muslim, bhudist whatever, they will talk about it for week in a persuasive way and later dump it.
I have evaluated christianity.
And its authentic.
Upon the over 25 places i can take an atheist to, i think only one will do.
With that evidence, every atheist who witnesses will instantly believe.
Its no delusion.
It is in history about some colonial masters who have died from challenging certain things they call supetstition.
Some of the People who lived in those days still live.
Even the queen mother of the Ashante kingdom in those days recently died. Its her funeral today. She was 111yrs.
And not evidence by words only but also physical(sight) evidence.
We're clearly more rational than you can hope to possibly ever comprehend.
So, that's not really a concern. We can't get "more rational", because it doesn't stretch till infinity. But that'd all be beyond your comprehension, chimp.
"There is no good reason for him to have created sin"
God created sin? Did God not warn adam and eve of it at the beginning? Did God ask cain to kill abel? Then why did He curse cain(focusing on the text. I know you are atheist but assume it true).But wait, do you have a bible?
"And what about people who follow him and his “plan" very closely and then get raped and beaten. Was god's plan for them to get raped and beaten? "
Wow.
Can you cite a real life scenario? And also prove the person's commitment to God. I wonder how you know someone's personal relationship with God. Do you know the secret things people do?
Even jonah a prophet of God got swallowed by a Whale, adam got cursed, moses was never able to see the promised land for disobeying a simple instruction, israelites got bitten by snakes for disobedience, israelite roamed longer than they should have to reach the promised land, david , saul solomon, Elijah etc they all lost their balance sometime and got injured. But came back on track. Satan has had one of the biggest falls in the history of the universe. But satan is back on track(plan) refusing to stay on the ground.
And now satan rides on top of many souls.
Jesus had to die in a very wicked way and it was part of the plan.
One of my pastors had an accident and till now uses a wheel chair while travelling and evangelising to start our church.
He did not quit and today there are over 2000 branches of our church accross the world.
He is a proud man.
Even though he is in a wheel chair(physically), he is able than you(you are paralized in the spirit)
The story of job. God gave satan the permission. He could have been like you. His friend adviced him to denounce God. And you know how the story ends. The devils throws a few jabs in round three and you quit the match and boxing as a whole.
So who told you christianity is a fun ride? The bible says we wrestle not against flesh and blood but against principalities of high places(satan's team).
The earth is a boxing ring for the dark and light army.
Christianity is not heaven.
Each side is tryna recruit more members. Atheists are just like spectators. And when the time comes the light will not accept them cos they have won no titles for God.
And satan will gladly recieve you's(atheist) since it gives him pleasure to harm man(image of God his enemy).
Anyone who thinks christianity is an immediate fun fair is an idiot. If you don't fight you don't win.
And the devil is not much concerned about atheists. He does not need fight them cos they have already defeated themselves. They have already surrended. They are the last take(so easy,no stress). They think they have gained independence from religious colonisation. Atheists have no shielding or weapon of defence. So fragile(a young nation). Satan won't throw jabs at them. Satan shows them the side of the figt where he seems to be winning.
How great it is to gain independence. Freedom.You feel intelligent and see those in the war fare as idiots. Your time will come when then war is over. The light will win and will not accept you.
And FYI. God created an angel not the devil. The angel became proud and God sacked him. (Before a servant becomes proud, then it means he is enjoying a lot of priviledges.) And when man was created, the fallen angel decided to take his revenge on God by attacking man.(God's image. Because satan cannot touch God)
If God defeats satan now, there are many who have not heard of God(like most Asia) and that will be unfair for them not to have a chance to choose. God will raise 6 major prophets in india. And his word will begin to spread wide in Asia then he will soon come. The bible says he will come when every has heard of his word.
God cannot take people to paradise immediately though it happened before(elijah). He told moses, no man sees my face and lives. Even jesus had to use a glorious body to enter heaven. Jesus is the way, truth and life(ressurection).No one goes to the father except through him. You cannot go to heaven without accepting jesus(if you heard of him). Because the sinful body is not allowed.Adam was kicked out of the garden immediately he lost his glorious body. Only jesus can give that back. He is has gained it. And only he has the right to enter the garden again to get you the fruit of life. Or else God cannot accept you in heaven. Its the heaven attire(the glorious body). The attire of light. All angels shine.
The kingdom of light literally.
Moses's face glowed after speaking to God.
But you can keep being a spectator if you are afraid of war.
Wow. Everyone comes from god. So sin comes god. Why would he have put the tree in the garden if he didn't want Adam and Eve to eat from it? Why did he allow thoughts of murder to enter Cain's head? And why did he create Satan if he knew that he was going to cause so much harm? God just seems like a psychopath that has a chip on his shoulder. He seems very insecure and wants to make people suffer just for not following him. It is ridiculous. And yes god can make it that you can go straight to heaven. He can do anything right?
Please can you quote my exact words? I mean when or where i said that.
You say everyone and you mention sin as if it were human.
"Why would he have put the tree in the garden if he didn't want Adam and Eve to eat from it? "
Then why do people keep swords or guns they have no skill of, for decoration(they warn their children of it)?
God is creator of all things and Holy. He is without sin or neither did he create sin.
Sin is an act.
1. Which goes against the laws of God.
2.or Knowledge of what is wrong and go ahead to do it.
A baby who just learnt how to walk can take your cell phone (a scenario of you at your friend's house and you leave your phone on a low table)while you are not watching and walk to another room with it. It is not theft or sin. He has no knowledge.
Adam and eve sinned in two ways. Disobeying God's rule by daring only(that is total lack of respect to God even if they had not consumed it).
Adam ruled all the creatures and they all obeyed him for they knew everything he did was for their own good.
They also had their restrictions as every law posseses.Given to them by Adam.
They could never look adam in his glory and dare to disobey him.
Unlike we who posses sinful bodies; the reason we cannot see the face of God(so its considerable if we sin),
Adam and eve knew God face to face. The God all the angels feard And all creatures.
Eve overlooked him to take the advice of mere serpent(disgraceful) and Adam also over looked God's glory and obeyed a woman(sub adam who arrived recently).
Because God did not put fear into him and treated him like as a son.
God should be the most disappoint father in the universe.
The garden had many trees.
Which includes the tree of life and knowledge(death of sin).
That was the second sin(even third but i ignore one).Having the fruit of knowledge. And his first knowledge was he was naked.
That tree proved the level or limit of Adam's respect for God. That tree was a necessary evil~(According to me: only that line)
And Adam failed. Adam did not only dare touch but also shot himself with the gun for decoration.
"And why did he create Satan if he knew that he was going to cause so much harm? "
What?!! God is a being who creates whatever he wants.
He wanted servants. So he created Angels. To fill up heaven. To praise him forever.
God had not created man yet.
Lucifer was the highest of the archangels, he had the best of priviledges, he knew God well, he studied his throne well, he knew how to please God,God Appreciated him.
There was no politics in heaven. Lucifer as priviledged as he was above all the other angels still wanted more. The bible says he wanted exactly what God had(not more not less). Satan felt proud and started politics in heaven.
He started a rebellion. He convinced many angels to join him to overthrow God.
God did not create pride in lucifer. It only grew in him. God does not tell people or angels what to feel. Its complete freedom of choice.
Man was not in the picture at that time. God knew what lucifer was planning but did not stop him . He gives freedom of expression. And lucifer finally lost the war in heaven. And he continued on earth hoping to win this time against man(image of God)
God does not 'MAKE' people who do not follow him suffer.
God 'LEAVES'people who do not follow him to suffer in the hands of the fallen one(satan).
He is a disappointed father trying to reconcile with you and if you still refuse to take the opportunity(by obeying his word) he is offering, then what do you expect him to do? He should leave you to your fate in the hand of your enemy.
"And yes god can make it that you can go straight to heaven. He can do anything right?"
Ah. Its like you are doing everything possible to annoy yourself of God.
Do you understand 'GOD'?
Tell me how close you ever got to barack Obama.
God is majesty. Mankind has fallen short(sick) of His glory.
Mankind is sick of sin. It is very contagious. God is offering medication and treatment(with his laws ,bible and everything he asks us to do) before we enter heaven. Satan infected many angels with his disease remember?
Sin is corruptible. We have to die first before we obtain the glorious body in the same manner jesus did(after death).
God is Holy. He cannot deal with anymore filth. And those God should take to heaven, does it include atheists?Don't be silly.
Plus i don't think paradise will be in the heavens of God.
If adam and eve lived on earth. Then after the defeat of satan, God will reclaim the land for us and make everthing new on this earth.
No one is growing wings to fly to heaven. Everything will be here on earth free of pain or cruelty cos the king of darkness will be chained. Life will be as every man wants it. Like in the time of Adam.
But i think it will be possible for man to go up in the heavens of God still like jesus did. Cos the glorious body is not limited in speed or will.
But i don't think people will like to go to heaven for anything.(Maybe once in a while)
Stop avoiding everything. God could have made humans in heaven with him. He never had to create earth. Since he is omnipotent he would have known that humans would sin. Same with the creation of Satan. He would have known that Satan would be evil and cause suffering. He is just a psychopath that enjoys suffering. And I know that you will once again not be able to explain what I have said so you will say ridiculous excuses. Go ahead, I don't care.
You know i have my issues with God(based on a condition not proven yet) but they don't sound so lame as yours.
Now you wanna teach God creation. Now you don't believe in God's existence, lets base the argument on assumption.
Assum....
So if God created you and thanks to him you have a brain, now you want to think for him? On how he should have created things.
Maybe i should also think and suggest he should have placed your mouth in your armpit. God has always given us freedom to think and so if he says he is all knowing, you should reconsider your definition of that.All knowing meaning he knows what is currently happening and already happened but with the future, God has not programmed us like robots. He gives what is called choice.
And taking into account the various possibilities(choice) of action, God knows the future for each decision made. He knows the paths ahead and what will happen depending on which you will pick; choice. Adam and eve had a choice to make. Lucifer had a choice to make. In the assumption theory(of God is real)
If you refuse to see reason and call it excuses, don't even know if you read it in detail, i too don't care.
Pathetic. Honestly pathetic. You have no idea how answer my questions. Why don't you just admit it. You are blindly following god for no reason. You can't just say that god is allowed to create things however he wants. If something is illogical then you shouldn't believe it. And if god is all knowing then he should know the future which he obviously doesn't. And you tell me, what is the cause for god?
If you wish we can stop talking. But just to let you know, I am an adult. And yes, I do feel on top of the world. I feel happy and free. Hopefully someday you will too.
Jesus could have been a liar or crazy. If Jesus was born today and said the same things then he would be locked up in a mental asylum. And the Talmud is full of myths. The ancient Egyptians also apparently practised sorcery. Are the ancient Egyptians sons of god now?
There I'd no sense in what YOU are saying. That was not an answer at all. And you won't give an answer to the other one because you can't. Ha! What an idiot. Trying to prove something real when you absolutely can't. What a waste of time debating with you. You can't even answer my questions.
Denying what? Your childish talk about God creating man drawn to sin? And you have another idiot somewhere voting up your lame accustions. Come up with something that carries weight.
Or tell me from an authentic source where you derive such a lame statement.
If there were any reason to be believe in God then the same reasons would exist to believe in the devil. For an atheist it is clear that both are the invention of mankind as a way to control the weaker minded. As an example of the problems with the logic of religion. If God was omniscient then why did God screw up and create the Devil?
God created an angel not the devil. The angel became proud. An wanted a high place like God's. God kicked him out of heaven. Man was not in the world at that time.
If God was omniscient as it is claimed, then God would have known that he was creating an angel that would turn against him and become the force of evil ruining his creation.
Or When man created this God they didn't want their God to be the creator of evil yet evil existed so it was a good way to offer an explanation for the existence of evil in the world.
This is a copy and paste of the answer....i have already answered it to someone else and cannot type it again.......
God has always given us freedom to think and so if he says he is all knowing, you should reconsider your definition of that.All knowing meaning he knows what is currently happening and already happened but with the future, God has not programmed us like robots. He gives what is called choice.
And taking into account the various possibilities(choice) of action, God knows the future for each decision made. He knows the paths ahead and what will happen depending on which you will pick; choice. Adam and eve had a choice to make. Lucifer had a choice to make. In the assumption theory(of God is real)
Jeff, I appreciate your views and defend your right to believe the things you wish to believe. I have said I would believe anything a REAL "god" told me after S/HE/IT proved to be real. That shouldn't be hard for a real god. Until then, another human can talk 'til hell freezes over (If the place also proved to exist), and I wouldn't change my mind. It follows that if I don't believe in your "GOD", I don't believe he "created" a devil. I think they are BOTH phony, as are their alleged places of residence.
"We are each our own devil and make this Earth our hell" (Oscar Wilde). I believe it goes the other way too, we can also make this world our heaven if we choose.
I see the hate mostly caused by religion which includes racism, religious wars, attacks on people who believe differently. Then there are those who actually "make this world their hell". I prefer not to join any of them and try to enjoy "heaven right here on Earth". Satan will not be "chained" until religions stop insisting there is only one "god", and those who believe otherwise are followers of Satan, or just plain stupid!
Yes, fools are very good at fooling themselves and might actually believe they are Christians until they realize they never really believed the gospel and never really repented of their sins.
sure, atheists comfort themselves by believing they are exonerated in death and do not owe God for their time so they feel like they cannot end up in Hell paying for their unending sin. Even though they are paying for their sin in time counting down to zero for execution, they somehow manage to convince themselves that they do not have to pay in Hell. And that is why God says they are fools.
I see you are responding....when I don't respond to your idiotic comments, it's only because I quit reading them since trying to tell you how you can be saved is what Jesus referred to as casting pearls before swine. Isn't that neat how Jesus referred to haters like you as "swine". He had lots of other names for you too. I'm sure you appreciate it.
If I was god then I would answer people's prayers like the god of the bible promised. So yes, I do feel like I'm better than the god you believe in. I prayed to have my faith become stronger and to feel that god is there. I didn't get any help. If god wanted me to stay a Christian then he would have helped me. You can try praying for me. It will not work.
The thing you are referring to as "god", whatever that is, is not God whom you deny is there. What you are doing is holding up a wall in your mind which you feel keeps you free of God by shutting Him out.
You never were a Christian. You can't be a Christian one day and the next day stop being a Christian. You can be religious, as you are now, believing you make yourself free of Hell by saying God is not there and does not rule over you, but to be a child of God you have to be born of His Spirit through faith in the blood He shed to cover your sins. You are not and newer were a child of God, you are a child of Hell and foolishly thinking you can get away with rebelling against God....like a devil. The only difference between you and the devil is that he is smarter than you, knowing he lost his battle against God and is doomed to Hell. Well, I guess there is one other difference...you can be saved from Hell. But I doubt that you will by, it sounds like your mind is messed up beyond reason and you will never admit you deserve to die and burn in Hell so you will force God to abandon you in the fire.
You were looking for confirmation of the reality of God based on your feelings....not based on the fact that you are guilty and need forgiveness. Now you have decided you do not need or want God's forgiveness.
God never promised to give you whatever you ask for, or whatever they ask for. The promise is to those who first believe on Jesus, then ask in the name of Jesus. That means according to God's will. If you ask things in the name of Jesus which are outside of God's will, you are asking selfishly to satiate your own lusts and God will not hear those prayers. You never really believed, you didn't get enough of a strong feeling to believe that God loves you and took on human form to die for you to save you from Hell.
Now you have decided you are smarter, better, and stronger than God so the part of your brain which is reasonable about reality has been shut down, closed off behind the wall you have set up in your mind.
Did you even read the OP? Clearly not. I was a Christian. I later decided not to be. And it is not a simple as “Christian one day, atheist the next". And I did believe in Jesus and said my prayers in his name. He didn't answer one. Not one. Like you I blindly followed Christianity because my parents told me to.
It is interesting how full of hate Christians are I guess that is what God's love is all about, hate for those who don't agree. That is why the Muslims keep killing the people who don't follow their God in the correct way. When man created Gods the times were violent and harsh that is why your beliefs are so intolerant. I'm an atheist filled with love and tolerance for those with different beliefs. I would dare to say the world would be a better place if it were full of people like myself rather than a bunch of intolerant bigots like you.
I see you are responding....when I don't respond to your idiotic comments, it's only because I quit reading them since trying to tell you how you can be saved is what Jesus referred to as casting pearls before swine. Isn't that neat how Jesus referred to haters like you as "swine". He had lots of other names for you too. I'm sure you appreciate it.
Sorry you foul mouth punk, you have succeeded in being repulsive enough that I no longer read your stuff and will ban you from my discussions the moment I see that sad miserable face of Darwin representing you.
Since God is the creation of many intelligent men of the time the concept is intelligent but with time comes further learning and a higher intelligence so I would say that it is fair to state that the author of the post is more intelligent and better than the God who is written about in the ancient literature.
Read all of the books by Lee Strobel, including "The Case For Christ". I also suggest the New King James Version Bible. I am skeptical too, that's why I need Yeshua.
I have already read many things on Christian apologetics. They repetitive and not convincing. I shouldn't need books anyway. If god is real then he should be the one trying to convince me.
You spent literally months on this site posting over and over that the proof is on the person that makes the positive assertion. Have you seriously forgotten this? WTF is wrong you?
I don't understand the first question but what I mean by “ignoring my every word" is that I have asked many things of him, none of them even being that big, and none of them has been granted. Loving someone doesn't mean sitting in your paradise while saying in a book that you love everyone.
Sorry. Didn't realize I didn't finish the first question. It was supposed to be what do you mean by love? For the second part, how did you come to this conclusion?
Jesus is supposed to love me. That is what the bible says. And I came to this conclusion because my prayers were never answered at all. The bible promised me that if I ask then I shall receive. But the bible truely is just another book in the fiction section.
Have you ever considered the idea that out of love, some of your prayers were never answered? Have you also considered the idea that maybe your motives for wanting something weren't that good? I know mine always aren't
Have you ever considered how innocent people men , women and children offered up prayers to god while imprisioned in Nazi death camps only for their prayers to remain unanswered ?
Maybe also their motives were also wrong ?
Or maybe to invoke that much loved Christian ' out ' god works in mysterious ways .....
I have. However, you are taking what I said somewhat out of context. It was more directed at him instead of just generally to everyone that ever was or will be. I can't speak for anyone other than myself because I don't really know anyone else's motives. However, as bad as the nazi death camps were and as much as I would not want that to happen to anyone, the fact that it did happen is actually proof that God does exist. God does work in mysterious ways however, it is also clear that if one were to ask wrongly, than what they asked for won't be granted to them. At the risk of having this sound like the 'mysterious ways' argument, God's plan for them made it so that people who don't believe in Him don't have an excuse for not using Him as a standard if they were to look at this as just about anyone you talk to would consider the holocaust to be objectively wrong. You're also forgetting that God does have a morally sufficient reason for allowing all of that to happen
You didn't explain how the holocaust proves god's existence. And the mysterious ways arguments is a pathetic way of saying I don't know. Even as a Christian I knew that.
I understand that the argument is weak and I wasn't trying to make that argument. However, that doesn't negate the fact that we won't know why God does everything He does and we don't need to. I usually tried to stray away from that answer unless it was absolutely pertinent to the question. Also, anyone could say that they're motives are good, but if they aren't honest with themselves, they'll basically just be deceiving them self. I've had those same desires you had, but I've actually had to put in the effort to get it done and not have God do all the work for me. Thats not to say you didn't, but you are making the assumption that you did put forth the necessary effort to make sure it got done and like I said earlier, if you aren't honest with yourself, you'll basically be deceiving yourself. When talking about the holocaust proving God's existence, I should have been more specific. It proves that a theistic god exists. Like I said before, just about everyone would consider the holocaust to be objectively wrong. If you're assuming an objective wrong, you're assuming an objective right. If you're assuming an objective right, you're assuming a moral law for which you can differentiate between right and wrong. If you're assuming a moral law then you're assuming a moral law giver which it seems like you are trying to disprove rather than prove
Morals depend on many factors. Morals are subjective. And I have read in the bible that if I ask I will receive. I received nothing from. And I can't make myself fell god's love. I can't make myself know what he's suppose to know. Also, did you have a look at those verses?
What do you mean by subjective? Also, as I have said before, if you ask wrongly, it will not be answered. The idea that you may have asked rightly was an assumption. You're right when you say that you can't make yourself feel God's love or know what He knows. However, you can count your blessings and let God reveal His knowledge to you through whatever resource is at your disposal whether it be computer, other people, or whatever. I did. The problem is, you aren't looking at them in context. In Numbers 31:17, it mentioned that all these people were killed. If you look six chapters earlier in chapter 25, you'll realize the parents were killed because of their practices with the women specifically being killed because of vexing the Israelites and the children were killed so they wouldn't follow in their parents footsteps. Due to their innocence, they are with God now. Deuteronomy 22:28-29 seen in context does not mean what you think it does. I imagine you intended this passage to be seen as an example of rape. However, upon further inspection you'll realize that it was consensual. If you look at verses before it, you'll see that only the guy was to blame. However, they verses you point out show that both people are to blame thus making it, like I said, consensual
What I mean by subjective is that objective morals don't exist. The Nazis didn't think that the holocaust was objectively wrong. And you are the one taking the verses out of context. So because everyone was dead it means that Moses' misogynistic comment is excused? You are obviously a misogynist. And yes, the verse is talking about rape. Don't try to twist to make me think that the bible's evil is justified.
Based off of what you said about morality, if I were to break your legs and take your money, you wouldn't have an issue with that? No one is trying to make you think evil is justified. All I am doing is trying to show you that you are taking things out of context. I already explained how in the previous reply so I won't do that again here
Because there is no god morality is subjective. But there is this thing called basic human decency. And you are still taking the verses out of context. Please answer how is what Moses said is justified. Just because everyone died it does not make it justified. And in Deuteronomy the verse clearly says and means rape in both languages.
What if I say that basic human decency would require me to break your legs and take your money? With the verses, I can already tell that you are going to try really hard to make sure that they mean what you say they mean. What context have you looked at and how deeply did you go? The verse you gave in Numbers 31 has chapter 25 for context. It talks about how the people, specifically the women, were leading the israelites astray. What Moses said is supported by that chapter. The verses in Deuteronomy that you mentioned are not about rape. If you look at the few verses right before it, I would say that those would be about rape. When you said that it means rape in both languages, what languages are you referring to?
If you need a book to stop you from breaking my legs then you are not a moral person. And so you think that because women were causing problems in Israel they should all be raped. Once again, you are clearly a misogynist. And it is about rape even if you do read the previous verses. If it is not about rape then why is the word rape used? And the languages I'm talking about are Hebrew and English.
My breaking your legs and taking your money logically follows from your belief that morality is subjective. It also sounds like you're hyper focusing on one possibility of the meaning of words, whether it be Hebrew, English, or any language. I'm also inclined to ask how you came to this conclusion. Did you study both of the languages and the possible meanings of the words in every context?
Have you ever considered the idea that you are just focusing way too much on just one possible meaning and treating it like absolute fact? Wouldn't several interpretations be obvious to someone who has studied them?
In one version of the bible it mentions rape specifically. We both know that using one example doesn't justify anything. As someone who has studied Hebrew, you would know that translating between that and English doesn't work well
That doesn't mean that I don't have the necessary resources to get the proper answers. You are not the only source of information when it comes to Hebrew
The first two I used for a better understanding on the verses you gave. The last one I used to compare other bible versions to each other. I am willing to get more if you want me to
The seizure of Infidel girls and their use as sex slaves is sanctioned in the Qur’an. According to Islamic law, Muslim men can take “captives of the right hand” (Qur’an 4:3, 4:24, 33:50). The Qur’an says: “O Prophet! Lo! We have made lawful unto thee thy wives unto whom thou hast paid their dowries, and those whom thy right hand possesseth of those whom Allah hath given thee as spoils of war” (33:50). 4:3 and 4:24 extend this privilege to Muslim men in general. The Qur’an says that a man may have sex with his wives and with these slave girls: “The believers must (eventually) win through, those who humble themselves in their prayers; who avoid vain talk; who are active in deeds of charity; who abstain from sex, except with those joined to them in the marriage bond, or (the captives) whom their right hands possess, for (in their case) they are free from blame.” (Qur’an 23:1-6)
The rape of captive women is also sanctioned in Islamic tradition
You did say ......Have you ever considered the idea that out of love, some of your prayers were never answered? Have you also considered the idea that maybe your motives for wanting something weren't that good? I know mine always aren't
10hrs ago..........
So it's out of love these individuals died appalling deaths ?
There motives were not good for wanting relief from dreadful suffering ?
It's also interesting that you say this is proof of gods existence , yet when I was a Catholic I was told it was proof of satans existence .
Wow , if you ask wrongly ? Surely out of a couple of million Jews one or two must have meant the criteria of asking 'rightly ' ?
You finish with god has a morally sufficient reason for allowing it and you know this how ?
Is this the best plan an all powerful god can come up with to demonstrate what ?
If the source of all morality is god as you claim if god commanded you to kill your child would you do it ?
If not why not as he asked Abraham to do it didn't he ?
It looks like you are taking questions that were directed at alto and generalizing it to others as well, in this case its the people at the holocaust. When you said It's also interesting that you say this is proof of gods existence , yet when I was a Catholic I was told it was proof of satans existence ., are you referring to the holocaust or not answering of the prayers? I never said that there weren't people that asked rightly. However, God is not obligated to answer peoples prayers whether it be because, as I said earlier, out of love or because not answering it would be better for the person or people involved in the long run, which would also be part of love. I know that God has a morally sufficient reason for allowing something like the holocaust because it logically follows from His omniscience. He is the source of morality. However, I am curious as to what you mean by morality
Actually I'm not you're sidestepping what you claimed earlier which was ......
Have you ever considered the idea that out of love, some of your prayers were never answered? Have you also considered the idea that maybe your motives for wanting something weren't that good? I know mine always aren't............
So I asked you a specific question about the suffering of the Jews now you're saying god is not obligated to answer payers as it could be out of love or it could be better for the person in the long run .... really ?
That makes absolutely no sense at all and you top it all off by claiming there was a morally acceptable reason for the holocaust and it is a logical one , would love to hear you try and tell us all gods intentions here ?
if god is the source of morality would you murder your child if he asked you ( he asked Abraham ) and if not why not ?
I asked you this question already and you ignored it whys that ?
I don't understand your question as in .. what do I mean by morality .
Fair point. It is logically consistent to say that God is not obligated to answer prayer and say that certain things are done out of love, in this case ignoring prayers, as well as allow the people in the holocaust to suffer and have a morally sufficient reason for allowing it to happen. I can't tell you every single one of Gods intentions. What I can tell you is that God is omniscient and being omniscient, He would know literally everything. Also, God being God, He wouldn't ask for murder. The situation with Abraham wasn't murder. God didn't just wake up one day and decide to have Isaac be killed by his dad just for the lolz. God is the author of life. Because of that, it follows that God has the authority take anyones life as well, even Isaacs. My question at the end was meant as what do you mean by morality?
It's a very interesting topic and I appreciate the fact that you're giving it considered thought .
You see when you say .... allow the people in the holocaust to suffer and have a morally sufficient reason for it to happen ....
I find that a baffling statement as you and I are mere humans and if we had the power to save even a few of these unfortunates would we hesitate ?
I think we would do our best to allieviate even the suffering of a few which makes us in the moment morally superior to god ; if for arguments sake it's part of some grand plan could you think what that plan is and why go about it this way ?
In the bible god promises on ten different occasions that prayer offered up in his name will be answered this is clearly not the truth and if it is truth how is it so ?
You say god being god would not ask for murder ? But yet he does several times in the bible and famously commands the slaughter of infants who are to be ripped from mothers stomachs and smashed against the rocks .
Regarding Abraham god asked him to sacrifice his son , Abraham did not know it was a test and was prepared to carry it out , im merely asking would you do the same if asked ?
What I mean by morality is basically .... what I ought to do , it's about doing the right thing as in repaying debts , helping others , telling the truth etc ,etc , when I talk about morality I'm talking about how we ought to live our lives most of us feel it's wrong to lie , cheat ,steal and kill we feel and mostly try to treat others with respect .
Our moral code is informed by the societies we live in , thus you see in different societies what we may deem morally acceptable they would deem it morally unacceptable ; morality is ever evolving as societies grow and change and what was once deemed morally acceptable ( as in slavery ) is a clear demonstration of this.
As a former Catholic the code of morality that the church followed in my youth was hardline Catholicism which has now softened beyond recognition , it as if god has changed his mind or else the church had to change with society , what do you think ?
There are three positions regards morality ......
1: Does morality come from us ?
2: Does it come from god ?
3: Or are there objective moral facts ?
I believe morality comes from us and that there are no objective moral facts .
I reject the theory of morality coming from a god because it's a very weak argument ; for example , killing is wrong because god says it's wrong , god makes it wrong by saying it's wrong , but if you allow that if god instead said ....killing is right then it would be .. that cannot be right or can god saying it make it right ?
The argument that god would never say killing is right is weak because biblically he has commanded and carried out killing and you have made a case for saying there could be a " morally sufficient reason for allowing it to happen "
So what are your views on the question of morality ?
Thank you. I appreciate having this convo with you.
As for your questions, if i did have the power to save even a few people from the holocaust, I would. At least I hope I would.
When I think of a grand plan, the first thing that comes to mind is conforming us to the image of His son Jesus Christ. I realize that doesn't fully explain suffering. However, something to keep in mind is that the solution may not be immediately apparent. In fact, it may never be apparent until sometime way down the line
Part of this would depend on what you mean by truth. My definition of truth would be what is objectively true regardless of what I may think or feel about something at a given moment. You're right when you say that there are verses in the bible that talk about how if we pray to God, He will answer it. Verses like Matthew 6:6, 6:33, 18:19-20, and James 4:2. If you or I were to just look at these verses by themselves, we would come to the conclusion that God has to answer our prayers. However, it seems like you are using the word 'answer' to mean that whatever you asked for needs to be given. I had this mentality for good chunk of my life so you are not alone in that thinking. However, as I had stated earlier, if you were to ask with the wrong motives, it will not be given. James 4:3 says that we ask but don't receive because we ask with wrong motives to spend what you get on your own pleasures. I by no means know your motives for why you asked for the things you asked for. However, God does. I know this because He is omniscient and knowing peoples hearts is an implied ability of this characteristic
You are right when you say that God does command the slaughter of infants. However, as I have stated earlier, God is the giver of life. Because of this, it follows that God take life whenever He chooses. When we look at the slaughter of these infants as talked about in the bible, the canaanites come to mind. Something to note is that this society was an incredibly wicked society. They were wicked to the point where God didn't want them to be on the earth anymore. The children being innocent would be with God when they died. What I would think would be the reason why would be to prevent their parents, assuming they were still alive, from raising their children in the same way they were brought up thus continuing the wickedness.
If God were to ask me to sacrifice my son as He did Abraham, I may question it at first, but I would probably do it eventually
Part of the problem I have with getting my morality from society is that society doesn't always know the right thing to do. Granted neither do either of us. I know I don't. However, the reason I brought up the holocaust earlier is because it is widely considered to be objectively wrong. I do not think that God changed His mind when it happened. I don't think He went from "kill people who disagree with you" to "you know what bro, don't just kill people because you disagree with them. That be bad." The reason being is because every human being is made in Gods image. If thats the case, then wrongfully killing people would be murder. If that is the case, then that would make Hitler genocidal. I do believe that morality is a combination of positions 2 and 3. I do think that God is the standard and I do think that there are objective moral facts. Here is my reasoning: if I were to come to you one day and break your legs and take your money, in the moment you would probably act as if morality would be objective even if you wouldn't think so otherwise. If that is objectively wrong, then it follows that not doing what I did would be objectively right. If not doing what I did is objectively right, then it follows that there is an objective moral law for which you can differentiate between right and wrong. If there is an objective moral law, it follows that there is an objective moral law giver which, in this case, is trying to be disproven and not proven. However, this only proves that a theistic God exists and not the Christian God specifically.
I think that biblically, there can be a case made for killing someone in self-defense. My reasoning is because the word for kill in english was translated from the word murder. Killing in general is different from murder. There are some situations where killing someone would be unavoidable. We have to look at each one on a case by case basis, however, we can operate under the idea that unjustly killing someone would be murder. I do believe we would have to draw a hard line on this because anyone could say that when they killed someone, it was a just killing
Hi Luckin , and thank you , also it's refreshing to at last have found someone with a different worldview to mine willing to engage in dialogue with mutual respect ,and it's also most interesting to hear how you think about these matters .
You are demonstrating that Indeed like most people that if you could you would save some of these unfortunates .
Christians used to say to me well Jesus suffered as he died for our sins on a cross and my reply is always the same " I never asked him as I had no say in the matter , is it not presumptuous to say you're dying for someone's sins who does not believe in you as he in his opinion has no valid reason to believe ?
Also was the sacrifice of Jesus so great ? He suffered for a few days only to be resurrected ; I worked in a cancer hospital many years ago and if anyone wants to see suffering on a grand scale visit one.
If there is a God and he is all powerful is this the best plan he could come up with to save mankind ?
To sacrifice himself as in Jesus to himself ?
I was once a devout Catholic but I was not satisfied with the answers I got to all these troubling questions and the one thing I noted was every religious person had a different answer for my questions .
Regarding god himself I asked many Christians to define him very few could and would struggle to answer , yet when I was a believer this was an easy one for me as I described god as a being of pure love ; and I totally believed that ......
One Sunday the priest stated from the altar "The state of pure love is non judgemental as in judge not least you be judged "
This lead me to think well why are we then judged by a being of pure love ? If for argument sake you rob my wallet and I catch you and question you and see you were in genuine need , I like to think I would give you 10 maybe even 20 Euro and wish you good luck ( 'I have actually done it before )
That's make me morally better than god does it not ? Why does he have to punish in the next world for what purpose ?
Ok , truth to me means if I ask anyone a question I expect an honest answer I always found that preachers and teachers could always answer the easy questions but had differing and very weak answers for the difficult ones ; look at the difference in what the Buddha said which was " question everything I say and make your own enquiries "
If you would really sacrifice your son to god would you not once ask yourself if a god that asked this truly worthy of worship ?
Radical Muslims actually believe they are genuinely carrying out Allahs wishes and the mindset and I would ask them the same is this the sort of god you worship ?
I do respect and appreciate your total honesty in answering these questions .
Regards the positions on morality i think you only have to look to societies to see that indeed morality is constantly evolving and changing with societies , Jesus himself never once mentioned the plight of slaves as he was a man of his times and slavery was commonplace some Christians try to change slavery into something ' nicer ' and more palatable which is totally disengenous .
Even the morality of god changes in the bible from the angry god to the loving god from the old to the New Testament .
Regards morality the three positions again
1: morality comes from us .. I agree
2: morality comes from god ... you agree
3: Things are right or wrong anyway ...objective moral facts
Position three : If there are objective moral facts then morality does not come from us or from god or anyone else , morality is out there it is independent of us all .
I read what you said about objective morality but the true meaning of objective morality as I've stated above .
This leads us to a huge problem how do we detect this property -wrongness - that killing or stealing are meant to have ?
Position two : killing is wrong because god says it's wrong ; god makes it wrong by saying it's wrong .
But this also means if god says killing is right it's right ?
You actually said you would kill your son if god asked you to so you agree that if god says it's right, it's right .
Not even god can make killing people right .
Thank you for the conversation it's been most interesting and let me know your thoughts .
The you talk about how Jesus suffered and died on the cross, it seems like, at least when talking about motive, you are misunderstanding the intent of the cross. Jesus died for us while we were still sinners. If thats the case, it follows that at one point no one asked for it. For evidence, you can look at the entire old testament. I'll have to find evidence for this, but it is my belief that Jesus death on the cross was retroactive meaning that it doesn't just cover the sins that occurred after the fact but also before as well. This is probably an imperfect analogy, but you don't go to the doctor to cure a disease you don't have. If I'm sick now, I'm going to get help now, assuming I'm actually willing to get help.
I would say His resurrection was great. Jesus could have easily said that He would be spiritually resurrected and that could never be falsified. Also, if He never rose from the dead, what difference would He have with any other deity that the people were worshipping or just any other person? Jesus is the only spiritual leader that predicted His own death and resurrection and pulled it off
I would say it is the best plan. Something to remember is that before Jesus became the ultimate sacrifice is that people were sacrificing animals every year as a payment for their sin. Jesus death made it so that we didn't have to do that anymore. Even though He did kinda sacrifice Himself to Himself. However, that is not the whole picture. As mentioned earlier, Jesus died while we were still sinners. If Jesus had waited until we asked Him to die for us, chances are He never would have. Due to our sinful nature, we may not have wanted someone to die for us because we think we don't need to. At least thats how I feel sometimes. What I'm getting at is that God made it so easy for us to turn to Him that all we have to do is repent and believe from the heart.
Your question on love is a very good question. I think your priest was right when he said that God is love. However, I think where he went wrong is the 'judge not lest you be judged' part. I wasn't there when he taught that sermon nor do I know him, but it seems like something he left out was that the command was against judging hypocritically. What I mean when I say this is that if I get mad at you for stealing, I better not be doing that same thing. That wallet analogy you gave is a good example. If you are giving to someone who needs it, then I don't see how that is immoral and I would encourage people do give to the poor. However, without God you can't justify why that is a good thing to do. I'm sure you've heard this before, but if you have not accepted Christ as your lord and savior, it doesn't matter if you are more morally superior than Ghandi and Mother Theresa combined. You aren't getting in. If you aren't going to want God in this life, it follows that you aren't going to want Him in eternity and will eternally reject Him. Here is a debate I had with JatinNagpal about hell. It is the thread under his first reply on the left side. The debate started after I commented on one of your replies.
Like I said, since God is the author of life, He is also authorized to take it however He chooses. I did say that if God asked me to sacrifice my son and I stand by that if God did legitimately wanted me to sacrifice him, I would. However, it is also my belief that God would not ask that today, and here's why. Jesus was the sacrifice to end all sacrifices. If thats the case, it follows that He wouldn't ask anyone else to sacrifice their own son. Also, Abraham was used as an example even though he never went through with killing his son. This is why we are told to question every spirit that comes our way because any one of them could say they were God and tell me to sacrifice my son to them.
I do not think the the Christians worship the same God as the Muslims. If you notice, the themes of our holy books are reversed. The Quran goes peaceful followers to aggressive ones that just want people that aren't them dead. The bible goes from people who live apart from God and in a way aggressive people to peaceful people that are more inclusive of people into their religion
It is stated in the bible that the law is written on our hearts. If thats the case, it follows that each and every person on the planet innately knows that there is an moral standard out there. As stated earlier, it is my belief that this standard is God. That is why I went with both options 2 and 3. This is my normal thought process behind why that line of thinking for morality:
P1: Anything considered to be objective would exist out side of ourselves
P2: Morality exists outside of us
C: Therefore, morality is objective
I have a similar line of thought for the standard of morality:
P1: Something objective would have a standard to differentiate between what is A and what is not A
P2: Morality, being objective, would have a standard for right and wrong.
P3: God is morally perfect
P4: God is neither a moral expert nor is he a moral engineer
C: Therefore, God would be the standard
When talking about slavery, I imagine you've heard people make the distinction between the slavery back then and the slavery we have today. If that is the case, what is it that you disagreed with?
When it comes to killing, as I have stated before, God being the author of life is authorized to take it whenever and however He so chooses. Based off of conversations I've seen and had, it seems like people have this idea that God is some cosmic mafia boss that just wakes up one day and wants a person or an entire group of people dead whether it be for the lolz or whatever. A good example would be of the caananites. God had said that their iniquity was such that His spirit could no longer be with them and had to be driven out of the land. The best way to do this was to kill them. The parents for partaking in it and the children so they would go be with God as it is my belief that they were innocent at the time their death and thus would be spared from what their parents had done. When looked at it this way, killing in general is not wrong, although that doesn't justify killing someone just because you can. Murder is the issue. If it was just killing in general, I would agree with you
If I missed anything, let me know and I will do what I can to answer it in my next reply
Interesting points and as a former catholic we never really asked that many questions on theology as it wasn't encouraged , I've heard most the reasoning at this stage and it varies ( in the detail ) depending on what preacher or teacher is explains it .
It always amazes me that there are 25,000 to 30,000 denominations of Christianity and they all disagree with each other and it over the details which are indeed important .
You see as a child we were told we were all born in sin which raised an interesting question ' what happens if a baby dies in birth ' the answer was ' he /she goes to limbo ' as they are not pure enough for gods presence , limbo has since gone so has purgatory as the most powerful church in the world evolves and changes with society .
The whole story to me makes no sense whatsoever and that's after once being a very devout Catholic , I remember thinking " scientists are now claiming there are trillions of galaxies with an infinite number of planets with an excellent chance of intelligent beings inhabiting them , is it reasonable to think a man died from crucifixion also on all these planets and these beings are also worshipping our god ?'
The religion you are mostly depends on where you were born most believe as their parents believe choice rarely comes into it .
You see when you say if one does not accept Christ one is not getting in , Muslims also say more or less the same thing you's both cannot be right and I'm saying from my point of view you's are both wrong ; and this is the case for the thousands of different branches of religion if you don't accept their version you're out .
No offence but do you not think I as others prayed , pleaded and asked for a sign or indication that god was with me ?
I mean in god and bad times and not once did I receive such a sign so if god created me and said ' ask and it shall be given ' and ' knock and the door shall be opened ' this was not the case .
I've heard all the excuses " god doesn't work that way ' of ' you have to ask earnestly and humbly ' or the worst of all ' ours not to reason why '
Do you not think it would be marvellous if I knew there was an afterlife and a god for definite ?
I can only honestly tell how I feel and if a god made me as is claimed he made me this way as I never felt his presence .
When you say I'm not getting in beacause I won't accept Christ well believe it or not here is how again I'm claiming moral superiority ; imagine please if your mother told you you had a long lost uncle and he loved you and you waited for him to show up and he didn't ,your mother might say " oh you didn't look hard enough he is here every day but you keep missing him " and if you asked " get him to call me " your mum says " but he does only you cannot hear him " and then you ask " I never see him or hear him mum whys that " you mum says " well he leaves signs for you as in he helped me supply food for the house today " you say " mum I don't believe he exists '" mum starts to cry and says " your uncle never wants to see you again and will never speak to you again "
Would you not find that terribly cruel ? If your uncle did show up I'm sure like me you would embrace and accept him .
If someone rejected me all my life and asked me to forgive them guess what ... I would ( I've done it ) why again is this natural to me yet a god sulks at rejection ?
I find it astonishing god expects me to believe in him without to my mind evidence after saying several times in the bible he would reveal himself to his followers .
Reagard morality forgive me but here is my exact position again for clarity ......
Regards morality the three positions again
1: morality comes from us .. I agree
2: morality comes from god ... you agree
3: Things are right or wrong anyway ...objective moral facts
Position three : If there are objective moral facts then morality does not come from us or from god or anyone else , morality is out there it is independent of us all .
I read what you said about objective morality but the true meaning of objective morality as I've stated above .
This leads us to a huge problem how do we detect this property -wrongness - that killing or stealing are meant to have ?
Position two : killing is wrong because god says it's wrong ; god makes it wrong by saying it's wrong .
But this also means if god says killing is right it's right ?
You actually said you would kill your son if god asked you to so you agree that if god says it's right, it's right .
Not even god can make killing people right .
So our positions naturally could never be agreeable on morality as to me there is no objective morality , position two allows for god killing people or indeed commanding us to do so at his will which to me makes no sense .
Regarding slavery in biblical times Christians always make out it was i some way a gentle form of slavery and indeed not undesirable , I disagree as do historians .
It's been interesting and thanks for your thoughts
Yeah, out of love god broke his promise. And of course my motives were wrong. How wrong of me to want to feel god's love. How wrong of me to want to know what I should do with my life. How wrong of me to want friends. I had such bad intentions didn't I. Also, here are some verses for you to look at: Numbers 31:17, Deuteronomy 22:28-29.
I don't think there's anything wrong with believing in God... I certainly think that it's very possible that a God does/did exist and did create the universe. However, it's extremely unlikely that the God which does/did exist is the one talked about in Christian/Muslim/Hindu/etc scriptures.
I hope your parents accept you for your beliefs. You should attempt to speak to them (maybe with the help of your brother).
Unlikely? That means your playing the odds of Pascal's Wager? You hope God is not the God of Israel who created the Heavens and the Earth and all that is in them in six days. You hope He is not the one who said "the soul that sinneth shall surely die", and you hope he is not the One who said all unbelievers will have their place in the lake of fire which burns forever and is the second death....so you hope you won't be dying forever in the fire of Hell. I would say good luck with the odds you are playing, but I don't believe in luck and know that your wager is already lost as you are lost.
I have found a person on you tube who really puts religion in the same light as I see it. If you want confirmation as to the crazy that religion is watch " darkmatter 2525 " on youtube. He really covers it well in a fun to watch cartoon. I went from Christian to atheist after reading the entire Bible.
I have found a person who religiously believes they are exonerated in death and exempt from Hell. In their religion they claim to be sure of what lies beyond the finality of their countdown to zero time. You can observe the silly and stupid things they say about life and death everywhere their words come out. It's quite twisted so sometimes it is funny, sometimes it is frustrating because you know they are on their way to Hell and are proud of themselves in doing it and sometimes it's just plain sad because you feel sorry for them and wonder why you can know the truth and they can't handle the truth. They parade themselves around claiming to be better, stronger, and smarter than God and then they die....the sum total of everything they do, everything they are, and everything they have is death...it's pitiful but it can be hilarious....a tragic comedy.
Pope Urban the II and God do not permit of this, Atheism is a distraction made by the saracens to drain Christianity out of Europe and replace it with Islam.
You joined 3 days ago and have launched 4 debates all around religion. These are not the actions of someone feeling out a new debate website or testing their beliefs. They're either a person with a premeditated mission who is completely consumed by a single issue, OR, more likely, you're a fake extra avatar of one of the regulars on this site designed to either torment or to put up straw man arguments.
Utlimately, I doubt your authenticity, as well as your claim that you went from not being an atheist to being one.
As you can see, if you read the OP, I came here because I wanted to save my faith. After hearing what many atheists had to say I just couldn't hold onto my faith any longer. And if I was trying to test my faith then you would expect me to make debates centred around religion. But you can doubt me if you wish, I don't care.
You wanted to hold on to your faith and you let yourself to be advised by the devil? Who advised you the devil doesn't know the bible? Did satan not try to persuade jesus himself(son of God) with the word of God?
With that it is clear that the word is too vague to be of any use.
Your religion is in no better position than what Satan built of the word. (Considering the fool you are, chimp, I'm not surprised at you being unable to notice the obvious.)
Lol. me mature? Man from your words or questioning i can tell your level of maturity. you are way back in mind maturity.All the replies i give about God is not from my pastor or any religious leader. I am 19yrs Young face but a matured mind. Without a matured mind, you will never understand the meaning of the word. I have a matured mind than a 200 years old atheist.
Swapping Christianity for atheism is like a kid who swaps breast milk for sweet toffee.
A few jabs from the devil and your feeble ribs couldn't take it. You quited in round three and joined the 'spectators'. Blind spectators sitting in darkness.
Even though i defend christianity much, I don't go to church that much cos of school activities(college) and some little project am about. Yet i have understanding than you who had church imposed on you.
So if my faith is not strengthened in fellowshipping among same feathers in the church, then what will happen if i engage in church more with feathers giving me more insight on the word……!?
Judging from your grammar you are not mature. And you are not able to argue against anything that I say. You are immaturely blindly following a faith that has no evidence supporting it. Give me one small bit of evidence and I will believe.
I learnt english. I only use it at school(class too only). I just have to understand and write.
The same way you cannot speak or write my languages perfectly.
What has maturity got to do with grammar?
Is that a logical statement you made there? And yes, lets focus on the logic we make out of the grammar.
Looking at what you say ,i don't want to call you idiot.
I want you to come back after five years when your brain is a little more matured(as expected of every human being but with you i doubt that possibility.....but just incase) to look at this conversation one more time And you will be ashamed of the irrational or more rational but feeble minded arguments you've made here.
I see you still with a baby brain. And now you got yourself a daddy atheist and so you feel like a conquerer...lol.
Many atheists here are well(High) thinking though they fake things at times but you,........disappointing
Speaking of grammar you should check the words you intend on using to correct me meticulously. I see some tautologies, past tense problems and some adverbs following consecutively doesn't sound right.
What languages do you speak. I am fluent in many languages. And father is not an atheist. You lack so much maturity. You think you're mature but you're not. You are not mature enough to see that your arguments completely fail. And I still don't see any evidence for god. Give me evidence and I will believe.
Though you can insult him freely. That's just how it is about the dogmatists. That's the reason you might have felt attacked when portraying that you are among them.
I don't want to rebel against my parents. I love my parents. And do you know how hard it is to be an atheist in a religious family? For some people it'sike telling their family like they are a neo-nazi. I remember when my brother told my parents. My mother cried all day. And I'm an adult now. Why would I want to rebel against my parents?
Because leaving Christianity over a Simpson's cartoon doesn't really sound well thought out. Seems to be the only logical explanation - that you were testing your independence with your parents.
Why would a kid rebel against his/her parents? Same reason people give for climbing mountains: because they're there.
The Simpsons introduced me to Buddhism and atheism and that is all. It didn't make me an atheist. And like I said, I am an adult. I could move out if I wanted to. I love my parents and would never rebel. They have done so much for me. But you can think that if you want. I don't care.
You do realize that Hollywood hates Christianity and use most of their sit-coms to tear it down. Did you ever wonder why they so fear Christianity while saying little against other religions such as Islam that has many zealots who support killing innocent people?
For you to listen to the Simpson's and not understand the systemic bigotry against Christianity from so many of these sit-coms, is amazing!
Let me clear up a few things for you.
First off, you now understand why your parents tried to keep their children from being indoctrinated by the bigoted left wing biased media. Your saga is the reason. They love you and wanted to keep you and your impressionable mind from being brainwashed by an insecure self love culture of bigots who can not stand the thought of accountabiulity for one's choices in life.
Your parents realize what this self love world offers you. It offers vinereal diseases, unwed pregnancies, alcoholism, drunk driving, drugs, etc. & few of these are considered anyone's fault.
You said....."Honestly, last night I had the most peaceful sleep I had ever had. I realised I was free. There wasn't someone constantly watching me. I could do whatever I wanted.""I can do what I want without worrying about being judged by someone."
This is what I always say about insecure Progressive bigots. They can not stand hearing any mention of moral values because in their insecure minds, they think we are judging them. You and they are very insecure people.
Listen to your words. You said you can now do whatever you want without a guilty conscience warning you of the consequences of sin.
This anything goes culture feels so good for a time. Those one night hook ups, those drinking parties, those drugs, etc. are so much fun until the day comes when you find out you got some girl pregnant, or you got caught drunk driving and lose your license and your job, or you get hooked on drugs, etc. etc.
I have been on this debate site for a few years now and guess what? The Progressive Atheists hate any mention of moral values. These people on the Left spend their insecure lives trying to insult Chrisitanity because it makes them feel guilty for the many immoral choices they make in their lives.
I'm not saying Christians live perfect lives... they do not. What they do is admit their sins and do not try to condone their sins. They constantly try to better themselves and admit when they fail.
Do you realize how many Simpson episodes involved Lisa pushing her Liberal bigoted indoctrination of our children by making Homer and Christians out to be morons?
Do you remember the All in the family sit-com?
They used the show to label all people on the Right as being bigoted racists like Archie Bunker. The lead character, Archie Bunker, is a loudmouthed, uneducated bigot who believes in every stereotype he has ever heard.
It's all political!!!!!!!! You are basing your life on a bunch of rich hollywood bigoted elites who spend their lives trying to condition people to fear Christianity. They hooked you line and sinker.
This is what Hollywood does! They are total bigots against Christianity. I applaud your parents for trying to keep you from this conditioning. I feel sorry for them that you were so easily swayed. For you to even consider Islam? COME ON! That shows how lost and confused you are.
Do you see the power of Hollywood? They make such entertaining shows and with each episode they have a purposeful agenda to push their political correct bigotry against Christians.
There is a war in this world. A war of evil versus good. Hollywood and the biased Liberal media is the mouthpiece for this selfish world against Christianity.
You asked... "If god exists then why is there suffering?"
I want you to try looking at the big picture of eternity. I want you to see how man's focus is on our short 70 years of life on Earth, while God looks at eternity.
We look at tragedy and ask why did God allow that. So I ask you, if you were God and could see the future of our chidren on Earth. Do you think he would find it so terrible if people died at an early age, and instantly went to heaven, versus a life of the many problems people bring on themselves.
Yes, it is terrible to lose a family member, but for Christians to be honest, their children are in a much better place.
If God were to miraculously keep us all safe from harm, this would no longer be Earth, it would be heaven. That is not how life all plays out. He gave us all free will to choose our life and our eternity. It sounds like you have chosen 70 years of possible misery, especilly if you follow the world's ideals of moral values.
You say you can still be moral without God. Let me tell you about the morals of most of these Atheists who are influencing you.
They support no restriction abortions of viable babies for any reason up till birth. Most of them lack the honesty to admit it. They just vote for the very people keeping it legal. This is the moral values of men without God!
Does that show you the ever changing moral values of a people without faith in God?
Ask yourself why it is that mostly only Christians take a stand against killing our unborn for any reason.
We are not talking life of mother abortions, or other extreme case abortions. We are talking about aborting viable babies for any reason up to birth.
Are you pro life now? If you are, you won't be for long because the Bigoted anti God world will brainwash you to believe killing innocent people is a "CHOICE" and if you speak out against it, you will be labeled a stupid judgemental Zealot that hates women! LOL, the morals of mankind without God is as God says, like rags!
I want to say one last thing. Your parents will always love you, and is why they have tried to keep you on path of Christian vaues so you do not screw up your life with this anything goes self love culture of today.
These people on this site could not care less about your life. YOUR PARENTS DO CARE, BECAUSE THEY LOVE YOU!
These Progressive Atheists on this site have no problems with all the un-wed mothers on welfare. They have no problem with all the abandoned children in broken homes with no fathers.
All they want is what you want. They want to live their no fault anything goes lifestyles without feeling bad about themselves when others try to live moral lives and care about the lost values doing so much damage to our children and culture.
In all my time on this debate site, not one of these Progressives has spoken out to all the harm to our children caused by this self love promiscuous culture.
It's a lie that Godless people hold to many core moral values. When it comes to their lifestyles, our children are expendable. It's all about the me me generation of fun until the fun all comes to an end.
The Simpsons didn't indoctrinate me. It opened me up to the other views of the world which they taught me noting about. The Simpsons isn't the reason I am an atheist. It just helped me learn about the world. And atheists do have morals. I plan to never do drugs, never get drunk and I am waiting until marriage to have sex (yes, even as an atheist). And wwhen I said that I can do whatever I want, it doesn't mean that I don't have limits. I can now speak how I want, think how I want, make jokes, dress how I like etc. And I'd I make a mistake I don't need to worry about being judged by a hateful and judgemental psychopath. And I am not a progressive atheist. I am conservative. And yes, he can let us choose our eternity but he shouldn't place us in a world of suffering to do so. And if he loved us he wouldn't let us choose a place of suffering. And I am pro-life and always will be. Other people's opinions won't affect mine. And for the last time, atheists can be moral. Your Christian morality is subjective. And I don't care what you think. I am an atheist and always will be.
Weak minded kid. Easily brainwashed with a simple cartoon(probably written by another atheist). You watch justice league right? and i know you believe you posses some telephatic abilities lol. you can shoot lazer from your eyes right?
Weak weak mind.
I have been in a class(not in a room watching cartoons)where i was fed with sugar coated doctrines in islam for about a year....i almost but never turned muslim(not because of fear of parents cos my dad doesn't mind).
I have read a few things from atheists and opposing views about christianity as a kid......over the years i have been able to make counter arguments against them. I have been in a traditional religious household before, i have even some cuts on my right arm as symbol of.........
I have seen spiritual(call me superstitious i don't care) activities where you hear other beings speak to the hearing of everyone present(those people don't have technology know how........the only thing they can do with a phone is only make a call(keypad or smartphones))
I was never a weak minded kid who easily gets overwelhmed with some idiotic new feed without making sensible comparisons and analysis.
Or else i would be in one of those idiotic associations by now.
Isaac newton says atheism is the most absurd or stupid thing one will ever consider acknowledging.
You don't listen do you. Makes me want to ban you from this debate. The Simpsons taught about Buddhism, it didn't convert me to anything. I obviously have a stronger mind than you since I can accept logic. And I don't think you are superstitious, I think you are schizophrenic. And why would I care what Isaac Newton said?
Yes, it did trigger my conversion by teaching me about the outside world. And yes, Isaac Newton was a genius. But so was Einstein, Leonardo Da Vinci and Stephen Hawkins. They didn't believe in god.
He was deluded with christianity.Many christian paintings came from him. Its just that he fabricated certain things about jesus.....i don't know why......
Lol..stephen hawkins? He probably is atheist cos he is angry at God he is like that(you know what).....so he'd rather choose to believe he doesn't exist. ..
He makes some evolutionary rants saying "Nothing created everything" and in his explaination....his claims contradicts with some scientific laws...lol
Why do you constantly lie instead of making a decent argument the letter proving Einstein did not believe in god is in his own writing and known to most except you .. again , ghoestly do our get media in your country ?
Details below :
The private letter, which was written to the Jewish philosopher Eric Gutkind, was fairly scathing in its remarks. Einstein wrote, "...The word God is for me nothing more than the expression and product of human weaknesses, the Bible a collection of honorable, but still primitive legends which are nevertheless pretty childish. No interpretation, no matter how subtle, can (for me) change this..."
The anonymous seller of the letter acquired it from Bloomsbury Auctions in London in 2008 for $404,000. Since that time, it has been preserved in a temperature-controlled vault. The seller placed the starting bid at $3M, hoping that it would sell for double or triple that amount. But after just two bids, it settled at the still monumental price of $3,000,100 on October 18. It's worth noting that Richard Dawkins was reportedly interested in acquiring the letter.
His idiocy is even more obvious when he is citing sources.
I'd guess we need something simpler than Wikipedia (is Simple Wikipedia comprehensive enough?) (say, r/explainlikeimfive, but he'll annoy the community there) for the chimp, but he'll probably begin screaming if it is any reputable source.
Let's complete the plan with an overdose of crack. No one shall suspect anything.
All that plenty talk to prove....you have extended knowledge still doesn't make you right...either...
"Albert Einstein's religious views have been studied extensively. He believed in the pantheistic God of Baruch "Spinoza, but not in a personal god, a belief he criticized. He also called himself an agnostic, while disassociating himself from the label atheist.[1][2] He also described himself as a "religious nonbeliever"
A Religious non believer and neither atheist.
Neutral ground....
Why doesn't he just be atheist.
Or he still considers possibility of the existence of a superbeing...just that he didn't have enough proof to his satisfaction?
An agnostic theist......and still in doubt.
What do you think still makes him consider the possibility........
I don't know how utterly dense a person can get but you really push the limits , so for the third time in the mans written words ....
Einstein wrote, "...The word God is for me nothing more than the expression and product of human weaknesses, the Bible a collection of honorable, but still primitive legends which are nevertheless pretty childish. No interpretation, no matter how subtle, can (for me) change this .
Try reading it several times and you may get it though I doubt it as you fail to comprehend very little and sadly again after been proven wrong you cannot admit it .
I don't see what the issue is here. The word God, and actual God, would not necessarily equate, for a Pantheist. So Einstein rejecting atheism, aligning with pantheism, and writing this letter need not be contradictions. Especially since the letter was in response to a book "Choose Life: A Biblical call to revolt"
Yes it is a logical statement. And who says you can talk on behalf of the living? Now you really are just making noise. Give me one more cowardly excuse and I ban you.
Wow. What an idiot. Such a coward. You can't answer my questions and so you just call them stupid. I hope you come out of your denial someday. You're justa Christian because your parents told you to be. Hopefully, someday you will realise how weak your arguments are.
Its amazing you call someone who holds a different view to you " weak minded " and yet you believe the magician Dynamo is using satanic powers to do his tricks despite being presented with evidence and corrected by many , thus proving that you indeed are the weak minded and indeed gullible one .
The rest of your rant is you saying how you're not weak minded and gullible yet you believe a magician is in league with supernatural forces ..... now that's hilarious .
Your point about Issac Newton is ludicrious Newton also believed in Alchemy which you no doubt are possibly a believer in also ?
For someone to believe or not believe in something, it all depends his experience.
What he has seen and experimented. Only a baby mind believes anything(what you call brainwashing)
And if that kid is not allowed to experiment(by guardians or authority) for himself a very long time, its like suppressing a vulcano. But it will one day certainly errupt with the slightest space available and harden like a rock on the first appealing feed that comes accross its way without experimenting it. That is why your atheist son says he feels free. He caught the wrong thing and hardened on it. He's blind and deluded. This shit has filled his head.
But me, i was given freedom all my life to explore.
That is why also, i know something about spiritual forces.Not theory. Practical.
So from my experience, i expect an acclaimed person Ex. Dynamo not to be playing tricks. But then my fault. Forgetting science and technology is highly promoted in such parts of the world to make anything almost, look possible or look genuine like what i have seen in the less advanced countries(even worse, the undeveloped communities within them).
These people don't know science. Mostly haven't been to school. Their source of medication is herbs . And there is no illment they cannot treat. Chemists and physicians are behind them in medicinal solutions.
Plus the spiritual stuff is not for public display(but a few do it for money). It is a daily activity necessary in achieving their goal for the day. You hear spirits communicate loudly and clearly with people around.
Their stuff is genuine.
In the same way my expectations for dynamo. But am judging dynamo from a video, which is not a good material for conclusion.
And are you saying Newton is an idiot?therefore......。..?
Let's cut to the chase you say ..... You hear spirits communicate loudly and clearly with people around..... if that is what you have experienced you really ought to seek medical help ... seriously .
No I'm not saying Newton was an idiot , Newton was a genius but a man of his times who believed in God , but because Newton believed in god does not make him right does it ?
Newton believed in Alchemy does that make Alchemy viable and correct ?
"You hear spirits communicate loudly and clearly with people around..... if that is what you have experienced you really ought to seek medical help ... seriously ."
You mean all of us? Over 1000s of people who have been there for spiritual help and came back with gifts to show appreciation?Even foreigners. Over 100 visitors a day.
Ok. Lets ignore that.
Did you watch the 2010 world cup. Did you hear of the famous octopus called paul?
Do you know how accurate its predictions were?....(A demonically possesed animal)
"Newton believed in Alchemy does that make Alchemy viable and correct ?"
I have not tested it. I have no idea of what it is. I have no plans of going into it or testing it unless it come my way(even so, maybe)
"If these people hear spirits communicate why can they not prove it to the satisfaction of the world of science ?"
Whosover in the world ready to prove it fake is welcome.
"Ah come , on you really are joking now I remember Paul and no one has ever claimed he was possessed by a demon that is beyond absurd ."
So by which calculation or statistics does an octopus predict accurately an event.
You have no knowledge of the spiritual things. Everything that happens in the spiritual world later appears in the physical. That is why people dream and in sometime later you see it physically...similar to deja vu.
The spiritual world is ahead of the physical. That is how spirits even God claims omniscience. The bible even says angels are all knowledgable......the difference is God is the controller he can limit knowledge even in the spiritual world. Even jesus does not know when He is coming. God(the father) has limited his knowledge.
And any of these spirits can either reveal the future(of the physical world)through dreams, even day time vision and also posses any physical being.
The owner of the octopus didn't have to explain that.
He only wanted his money.
Its common here.......but no one has time for them.....its mediocre to us...there are Greater things than that.....worth the attention.
"so ; what if someone a couple of hundred years ago believed in god ?"
Not Anyone. A renowned and respected scientist who uses the method of logical reasoning practised by all scientists.
Don't even know what your first point is saying as it makes no sense at all .
No an octopus does not predict events .
I have no knowledge of spiritual things and neither do you as spiritual things do not exist .
The bible is a book of nonsense and there is zero proof for a god or any supernatural entities , if I'm mistaken present your evidence to the scientific community so they can study it .
Again so what if Newton believed in god it doesn't make it true , i told you already he believed in Alchemy which is nonsense does that make Alchemy true ?
If Newton had evidence for a god please post it up after all you said he used logical reasoning didn't you ?
What about the amount of eminent scientists who don't believe in god , so what ?
I see; insulting him is easy, but making him understand the insults is (almost) impossible (since, well, possibilities can not be excluded simply because they haven't happened yet.)
No , only you are dense enough to believe an octopus is posessed by demons .... Don't state that in public you would be hospitalised for your own good .
The rest of what you're saying makes no sense except to you
What kind of an idiot says the Bible is not true and then tries to twist it into a reasonable argument which is supposed to support his stupid ideas?
Listen, idiot, the passage you are referring to is in the context of a brother calling a brother a fool. You are not my brother, God is my Father and you are of your father the devil. You are a fool. Now if you go calling your brothers who are like you children of Hell "fools", you are in danger of the fire of Hell yourself the same as your brother it. My brothers are not fools, they are children of the King of Creation. You and your brothers and sisters are fools.
I know that but no one practices alchemy now as in ....
A speculative philosophy practiced in the Middle Ages and the Renaissance and concerned principally with discovering methods for transmuting baser metals into gold and with finding a universal solvent and an elixir of life.
Yes and our knowledge equally meant in the past that people rationally thought the earth flat which at the time seemed sensible , like Alchemy nowadays both beliefs are nonsense NOWADAYS
Though both are related to Natural Philosophy (which is the precursor to modern science), Alchemy was a branch, while that other thing is a result from another branch (namely, Physics).
No valuable analogy can form between them.
Though, if you say that physics or biology (or similar) was nonsense, then we can make an analogy.
No you see you're changing terms now I never said physics or biology were nonsense , so that's not fair .
I said Alchemy was nonsense Alchemy's main concerns were turning base metal into gold that belief is nonsense , also the other main concern was finding the elixir of life that was nonsense also this is what alchemists concerned themselves with which as I've shown were indeed nonsense .
No you see you're changing terms now I never said physics or biology were nonsense , so that's not fair .
I'd expect you to be smarter than that. I didn't change any terms - that was an example of what would make a valid analogy.
Alchemy's main concerns were turning base metal into gold that belief is nonsense , also the other main concern was finding the elixir of life
Even if we grant that those were the main concerns, there is one more hidden premise you have to demonstrate - that it was the mindless pursuit of those things.
Don't start getting insulting please , I didn't ask for a valid analogy.
No not " even if we grant theses were main concerns " those were the main concerns of Alchemy ; why do I have to demonstrate a " hidden " premise ?
I said Alchemy was nonsense your point seems to be it wasn't when it was practiced which is bizzare , nor was anything else when it was practiced like , witchcraft , blood letting with leeches , flat earthers all these are nonsense so is Alchemy .
If you wish to say Alchemy is not nonsense which is what you said thats your right , good luck with finding fellow pratictioners or anyone who shares your view .
It did seem like you don't understand how a proper analogy would look like there.
Those could certainly be its main concerns - that doesn't matter.
Oh, that blood letting thing. Now that's a better analogy. The difference here being that in it, the aim wasn't about finding anything, the practice was dogmatic and the methods unreasonable.
Again I never asked for an analogy , and by you saying what's a proper analogy is merely your opinion on what a proper one would be .
Incidentally I don't know why you want to keep arguing if you wish to say Alchemy is a perfectly good discipline and is not nonsense be my guest , but could you also allow others to hold their views also as in I believe it's nonsense .
What kind of an idiot says the Bible is not true and then tries to twist it into a reasonable argument which is supposed to support his stupid ideas?
Listen, idiot, the passage you are referring to is in the context of a brother calling a brother a fool. You are not my brother, God is my Father and you are of your father the devil. You are a fool. Now if you go calling your brothers who are like you children of Hell "fools", you are in danger of the fire of Hell yourself the same as your brother it. My brothers are not fools, they are children of the King of Creation. You and your brothers and sisters are fools.
What kind of an idiot says the Bible is not true and then tries to twist it into a reasonable argument which is supposed to support his stupid ideas?
Listen, idiot, the passage you are referring to is in the context of a brother calling a brother a fool. You are not my brother, God is my Father and you are of your father the devil. You are a fool. Now if you go calling your brothers who are like you children of Hell "fools", you are in danger of the fire of Hell yourself the same as your brother it. My brothers are not fools, they are children of the King of Creation. You and your brothers and sisters are fools.
All those moral values you claim to hold to? They were instilled in you by Christian parents who do have a moral code they live by. They raised you with those moral values and you better spend every night thanking them for those Christian moral values.
If you had been raised by Atheists, your values would be changing with the culture because there would be nothing keeping you on a firm moral foundation.
Your values would drift with the next sit-com. Hollywood is now your humanist religion and will dictate what you believe.
I guarantee you the longer you follow this Godless world's view of life and morals, you will become pro choice and you will not be waiting till marriage for sex, because this Atheist world will laugh at you and ridicule you for having what they call old fashioned morals.
To be accepted by the world, you will one by one throw out those moral values instilled in you by your parents and God, and will become like your peers.
You are already becoming like these bigoted progressives. You called me a hateful judgemental psychopath for expressing my Christian beliefs and opinions to you!
See how quickly you become just like these Progressive Atheists?
I know many atheists that are pro-life and wait until marriage. I don't want STIs and unwanted pregnancys. I don't even like the idea of being in a relationship anyway.
Any person who votes for these Democrat Politicians who keep it legal for states to have no restriction abortions of viable babies at any stage, is a phoney. These pro life Atheists you say you know do not vote for Democrats? If they do, they are not pro life.
Do you believe a person who would vote for a KKK member, can honestly say he stands against racism?
Use that same logic for people who say they are pro-life and then vote for radical pro abortion politicians.
If you vote for any Democrat who supports late term abortions for any reason, then you are not pro life.
I don't live in the U.S.A. so I can't vote for the Democrats. If I did live there I still wouldn't vote for them. And there are many atheists that don't vote for the Democrats.
What kind of an idiot says the Bible is not true and then tries to twist it into a reasonable argument which is supposed to support his stupid ideas?
Listen, idiot, the passage you are referring to is in the context of a brother calling a brother a fool. You are not my brother, God is my Father and you are of your father the devil. You are a fool. Now if you go calling your brothers who are like you children of Hell "fools", you are in danger of the fire of Hell yourself the same as your brother it. My brothers are not fools, they are children of the King of Creation. You and your brothers and sisters are fools.
