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I'm better than God because I insist He is not there
God can't do anything to me as long as I deny that He is there and there is no Hell. I fully intend to prove Hell is a myth and there is no God. My death will prove it and then I win the argument. Just because the Bible says I'm a fool does not mean I'm not a genius.
You are going to see what you insist cannot be shown in a picture. I can see it already and I know I'm exempt from it. I have no burden of proof, I need no proof, I'm not asking for proof....
You are asking for proof and the burden is on you to find it and you are going to find it in death, aren't you?
I don't have to prove anything. If you want to prove it your own way, go ahead and prove it.
The proof of the reality of Hell comes from God and He will give it to you if you believe it or not...you will get it. You are insisting there is no Hell so the burden of proof is on you...you cannot prove there is no Hell, you can't prove that Hell is not your destiny because there is only one way to find out....and you are going to find out, aren't you?
God can change your destiny but not if you insist He is unable to do it. He loves you so much He will let you go your own way, He will not force you to believe anything but He WILL receive honor from you for creating you if you like it or not...and if you end up in Hell, you sure won't like it.
The burden of proof is on you...go on and prove Hell is not there and you can't be stuck in it forever.
OP never stated that they do not think there is no hell. They stated that they do not believe there is. Those are two entirely distinct statements. You were the first to originate an actual claim - that hell exists - and making another claim that you cannot prove - that God exists - is not fulfilling the burden of proof that accompanies having made a claim.
Faggots who think they get out of responsibility for their sin by dying are idiots. You're very hateful and when I can ban you, i'm going to ban you. I don't want your garbage in my discussions.
I have no burden of proof, homo, I don't have to prove anything. You can find out for yourself, can't you? That's what you are doing, like a fool, you think you can die and prove you have the right to live outside of Hell and there is no God. You have the burden of proof and you are spending your whole life wasting your efforts like a fool.
I have proof that the Bible says homos are dogs, be they pirates or elves or whatever . I know Hell is real, I know it burns with fire and brimstone, I know sinners will be confined in it's torments forever. I do not need proof. For twenty odd years of my life I was like most of the idiots here saying "I see no proof of Hell", but I was never stupid enough to demand proof of Hell because that's the same as asking for death by which you can enter the fire of Hell.
All who hate God, love death, and how can you blame God for leaving in Hell those who hate Him?
Jesus took my death, my death has been accomplished by Him, He is my life since I believed on and received Him, He lives in me and His life is eternal, He gave me eternal life and I will never die. I will be with Him in His resurrection, He's taking me to heaven, He paid the price for me so I don't have to pay in Hell.
My body is dying, as good as dead. There is a new me created by Jesus Christ who will have a new body like His resurrected body, free of pain, free of death, immortal.
You are dead and dying in your sin as a sinner and you deserve it. I deserve it too but I am forgiven because God did it in my place so He forgive me in His resurrection. I wish I could make this click for you so the light would come on, but only God can make you see and He won't make you see if you love your sin all the way to death thinking you are proving Hell is not your destiny as a sinner.
I believe Hell is real because Jesus said it is real, where the worm never dies and the fire is never quenched, where dying never ends. I believe Hell is real because it is the execution of justice against evil. It is good to know that God punishes evil. God punishes evil because He is good. The faith of God is entirely logical and reasonable. You are being unreasonable, trying to convince yourself that you are justified to live outside of Hell...obviously you are not justified to live at all or you would not be dying.
I believe God, I don't need proof because I know God. I have no burden of proof, you can believe or not believe whatever you want to as long as you can until your dying is finalized and then you can see beyond the grave. It's a lot easier to believe God than to go to your grave thinking you are proving God wrong.
If you believe in something, then you must have a reason to believe in it, otherwise you wouldn't believe in it. Can you try and articulate why you believe in God? If you can't come up with a reason, that's significant.
It's a lot easier to believe God than to go to your grave thinking you are proving God wrong.
Maybe, but that doesn't say anything about whether or not God is real.
Scholars admit the large possibility of annihilation or universal salvation as alternatives to the traditional view held at the Synod of Constantiople, for textual reasons, and theologically the idea of a merciless God contradicts everything we know about Jesus. Hans Kung sites many early stage pre-doctrinal church fathers in his argument against literal Hellfire,
"Origen, Gregory of Nyssa, Jerome, and Ambrose, interpreted the fire metaphorically. 'Fire' is a metaphor for God's wrath, 'eternal' is not always understood in the strict sense in Hebrew, Greek and modern linguistic usage….Neither in Judaism, nor in the New Testament is there any uniform view of the period of punishment for sin."
-Prof. Hans Kung, Eternal Life, p.136
Plenty Old-New Testament verses contradict the non-biblical doctrine of eternal Hell.
"For since death came through a human being, the resurrection of the dead has also come through a human being; for as ALL die in Adam, so ALL will be made alive in Christ." (1 Corinthians 15:21,22)
"God has imprisoned men in their own disobedience only to show mercy to all mankind." (Romans 11:32)
"And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself.” (John 12:32)
"Jesus Christ, the savior of all men, especially those who believe." (Timothy 4:10)
You don't know what you are talking about. You don't know God. You are trying to change God into being subjective to your own feelings. You are dead in your sins, dying, and will end up in eternal death in Hell's fire if you don't get saved from it. You are not saved now, you are trusting in your own goodness which is no good for anything other than dying eternally as a testimony to God's goodness and His right to rule against you.
Once again, this doctrine of demons being promoted by a guy who thinks everybody can do whatever they want to do and still end up in heaven forces me to ban him. People want to believe this stuff because they want to believe they have the right to exist outside of Hell simply because God created them...or whatever, maybe they believe evolution created them so they have the right to exist outside of Hell. This is a twisting of Bible doctrine, taking verses and passages out of context and ignoring other passages and verses which directly deny and rebuke this teaching of "Universal Forgiveness" or whatever they want to call it. This stuff comes from people who don't even believe the Bible but rather believe God gives them truths which He never bothered to put in writing clearly and unchangeably. These kind of people will say the Bible was changed and is not God's word, but contains God's word and they claim they have figured it out and they interpret it rather than believe it is written and unchangeable.
I am not going to turn this into a Bible debate going back and forth arguing Bible doctrine with Bible passages though I am fully equipped and able to make a fool out of a guy who believes like this Giraffe clown. This debate is for logic which always upholds God's word as truth if it is faultless logic. The challenge here is for logic, and those who argue against it are schooled by ungodly teachers and authors who I will logically refute without directly quoting the Bible. If I find somebody ready for the truth, then I'll show it to them in the Bible. A person who insists there is no eternal punishment for sinners is not ready for the truth and is probably going to be IN that eternal punishment...and I hope I'm wrong about that. I don't want anybody to end up in Hell, not even my worst enemy...I simply can't get them out of it if they won't trust God to get them out.
It sounds to me like a fly full of filth swooped in. You need help. This is the last time I will allow you to post any vulgar speech in my debates. You will also spell God's name correctly and refer to Him always in the masculine form or you will be banned from my debates the moment I see you posting. This is the last warning for you. I don't need you in my debates any more than God needs you in heaven. I want you to participate the same as God wants you to participate in heaven, but I'm not God and you tested my patience for the last time.
You and Pirate have received the same warning. The same warning is issued to others, but so far there are only three I remember well enough by name. You, ProLogos, Pirate, and Cartman...Cartman has been a pleasant surprise for me by abiding by my rules of no cussing.
This kind of stuff just makes me want to puke when I read it, and if that's all you have to contribute here you will not be welcome.
Nobody here is going to "prove" anything, one way or the other. The only thing shown here is that some people let others control their thoughts, and some speak for themselves, going by what they SEE and by analyzing WHAT they see with their own mind.
A Rabbi named Maimonides once said: "Do not consider it proof just because it is written in books, for a liar who will deceive with his tongue will not hesitate do the same with his pen."
I wonder if he considered the Bible one of those books? Many will say the writers of the Bible weren't liars. They really didn't know. It was hundreds of years "after the fact" that this was "written" by using a compilation of myths, "interpreted scrolls" and barely readable (and interpreted) stone tablets and Papyrus scratchings with many pieces missing which had to be filled in with the imaginations of the fervent believers who were collating them. MLK jr said: Nothing in the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity." Forgive me Mr. King, but doesn't that include the sincere and conscientious collators of the Bible??
Thinking for myself, I believe "hell" is in the imagination.
Of course the Rabbi you are referring to considered the Bible to be a book of lies because the New Testament is all about Jesus Christ who is the Messiah foretold in the Old Testament. The Jewish religious leaders rejected Him as their Messiah, accused Him of blasphemy because He claimed equality with God, and used that charge to call for death under Jewish law.....and threatened Pontius Pilate by threatening to appeal to Ceasar because Jesus claimed to be the King of Israel and Ceasar allowed no other king in the Roman Empire.
You are onw who "let others control their thoughts". You are listening to liars who hate God, hate Jesus Christ, and have sold your eager ignorance by twisting history blatantly because they know that simple minded people like you will buy their lies and then parade themselves as if they have the powerful truth.
The "myther" garbage is a modern movement purposely ignoring and distorting history. You are being mindless and letting your mind be filled with lies. You are taking a one-sided approach to history sold to you by people who make a living out of ignoring history and twisting facts.
That is enough on this topic, I will not allow this debate to change into a different topic. Return to discussing God's right to leave sinners in Hell, or your belief that you are exempt from Hell because you are as good or better than God, or your belief that there is no Hell.
The only people saying something has to be proved here are the ones who insist they are not going to burn in Hell because they insist it is not there, or they insist God is not there so He can't leave them in Hell. I supposed you need proof that Hell is real, and like the others, if the only way you will accept proof is to find yourself in the fire with no way out, then you will get your proof and you will know that I warned you and you got the proof and I didn't prove it, I only warned you.
The only thing you said worth contribution to the discussion here is that you believe "hell" is in the imagination. Who taught you to believe that? Why do you believe that? You think everybody is supposed to question their belief if they believe the Bible, but you are not supposed to question your own belief? The only way your belief can be unquestionable is that it is based on the authority of God....and I suppose you think you are the same as God for yourself and for anybody else dumb enough to think you are as good as God.
I suppose the fact that you are dying now is not something real, but it is only in your mind because you believe you are living now and not dying. The fact that you are dying should tell you that you need to be saved, but since you are dying slowly as you get older instead of drowning quickly I guess that means you think you are doing fine and don't need to be saved. Dying like you are doing now is what you will do forever if you don't get saved from it. Your dying is caused by sin which you inherited and which will take you to Hell if you don't obtain pardon from God.
This is simple common sense logic. The teaching is Biblical, but even apart from the Bible, God wrote His message in all of Creation and it is in you, His law is written on your heart and you know you have broken it if you deny it or not. My guess is that you are in complete denial of reality. Hell is real and God has the right to allow you to go there if you want to keep on insisting that your sin is worth dying for which is all you are doing. You are trying to put on a show of being smart and strong and your dying is proving you to be a powerless fool thinking you can defy God and be exempt from Hell because you insist He is not there and Hell is only in the imagination.
Hell is in your imagination because God is trying to warn you of where you are going if you don't secure His eternal mercy, forgiveness, and pardon. God wants you to have eternal life with Him in Heaven or He would stop giving you air to breathe now and let you go off into the Hell you insist is not there as you defy Him in your willful ignorance.
First, the Rabbi wasn't talking about the Bible, he was talking about liars in general.
Second, It seems you are saying that, because they didn't buy Jesus' "son of god" claim, that THEY don't deserve to worship god and should be punished. THEY were there at the time, they saw things that were not just "written about". Is it possible that they might just know a truth or two that doesn't fit with what YOU have read? That maybe these people wielding the pens hundreds of year later were "interpreting" the ancient languages and symbols wrongly? That they were maybe "filling in the blanks" with "righteous enthusiasm"? Like I said, THEY were there! The scribes of Constantine were NOT! Besides, the scribes knew that they'd better come up with a story that pleased the Emperor, or, .... well, we know from more convincing sources that Emperors don't like when things don't go their way!
"....my belief that I am better than god." Not really. I can't be better than something I don't believe exists. I AM better than an entity that would turn its back on 20 of "Its innocent creations" while a faulty "creation" mowed them down with gunfire, one that would let another wash up on a beach @ 5 years old while thousands of others died or suffered with him. One that stood by while its followers prevented women from getting healthcare they couldn't afford. Allowed the rich to live better and longer simply because they could protect themselves with their money! What was that Jesus said (allegedly) about a camel passing through the eye of a needle? And how is it that Jesus is the "son of god" to your religion, and only an important prophet to another? Why do these two "Jesus" religions have different names for what is obviously the same "god"? Different "instructions from "him". Obviously, someone has received lies .... of course, it HAS to be THEM! Which is THEIR thoughts, exactly. MY, how things get confused over the centuries.
Ever do that thing in school where someone makes a statement to someone in a corner of the room and that statement gets whispered from person to person until it reaches the opposite corner? Usually, it never even resembles the original statement. Sorry, I can't "believe" when the originator never steps forward and clears up the TRUE statement! It's strange that a "god" so powerful that he could inscribe commandments in stone, could not put his entire set of rules into something PERMANENT, LASTING ... and ... SIGNED! WHY leave something so important up to "interpretation"? If our forefathers left the Constitution to "word of mouth", can you imagine a session of congress today?? Peter said this....! John said THAT....! WE know it's true ....because our secretaries wrote it down ... and we made sure that they wrote what WE figured was MEANT! Sorry, I can't live my life by what others tell me I must do, because someone else says I must!
You have twisted my words and implied that I said things I did not say. You say "it seems you are saying that" and then you insert your twisted version of my words adding meanings I neither stated nor intended. The way you are twisting my words is the same way you are trying to deny and twist God's word.
You obviously type well enough to capitalize "I" referring to yourself, you will in my debates be banned if you cannot capitalize the name of God. So you think God is imaginary and not real. You can think and say that, but in my debates you will show enough respect to capitalize His name or you will be banned.
Not only are you twisting my words and implying that your version of my words is what I was saying rather than what I said is what I was saying...you are also accepting a twisted version of history which implies that Christianity is something established by Constantine. Maybe Catholicism which is a blend of Paganism and Bible for a religion which in reality is not Christianity fits under Constantine's establishment, but certainly not Biblical Christianity.
So you refuse to believe God guided men to record His word and it has been preserved and passed down from them, kept by God for us. You refuse to believe. That is your choice and the only person responsible for that choice is you. I know God's word is true, and you are the one who is fallen for lies. You are the one believing lies which are designed to make you believe you have the right to exist outside of Hell. That is what this discussion is about. The veracity of God's word is not the subject of this debate. He proves the veracity of His word by condemning those creature He would prefer to enjoy but instead they have chosen to not believe Him and are turned away from and/or against Him. You are now one of them by your own choice, and you are on your way to Hell if you believe it or not. I can tell by your own words which testify against you. If you insist you can't believe it, then you certainly won't believe it, will you? But you will find out, won't you? You think you know, don't you? Do you? Really?
You might realize that people like yourself who believe they have the right to exist outside of Hell based on nothing but the fact that they are not there now, have fallen into a trap of lies by which you can be led into Hell. You are separated by your sins from God and saying you are better than God because He allows evil to continue in the world; not admitting that the same evil you hate is in your own heart. You are angry at God for not stopping the evil NOW, so in your heart you have murdered Him and you believe He is gone...sure you can say you believe He was never there and you are innocent, but it's not me you have to convince of that fact...it's yourself. If you are fully convinced of the things you spout as true, then you are as good as dead and you will find proof of Hell in the way you don't want it, the way you insist is not possible.
You are obviously intelligent, but twisted away from and against God for no good reason. All of your reasoning against God ends in death, the same dying you are in now but only in Hell forever where it belongs. Go ahead and don't believe it. That's your choice, it's on you.
I'll give you props for having a unique brand of trolling with threatening to ban anyone who doesn't capitalize the word god it's not like She would care about such a trivial matter. oh wait She is a petty god so of course She would.
You are living your life according to what others have told you.
God's word is indeed true and preserved from the time when He gave it to His chosen men. It wasn't hard for God to do. You don't want to believe it because it speaks against your sin which you love more than life even if it takes you to Hell.
There are indeed many twisted corruptions of God's word, and your version of history and truth is equally or more corrupt. You are setting yourself up as the litmus test of truth when the chemicals on the litmus paper of your own soul are polluted by your own pride and sins. You are going to find out that you are wrong and I hope you find out before it's too late to admit it in a way that might do you any good. Go on and justify yourself to and for and by yourself as long as you want to. You might fool yourself and some other people and you are entitled to do that as long as God allows you to do it. Time is running out to enjoy, so enjoy while you can.
If I take your writing, change it around, then claim it's your word, how will you feel about it? It would no longer be your word, it would be my version of your word which would not be what you said, but rather what I wanted it to be saying, my way. God has preserved His word and given it to the English speaking world in the King James Bible. This was not hard for God to do, but it was hard on many of the people who obeyed God to put His word in English.....they paid with their lives blood in terrible tortures and barbarous executions....but they know their reward is in the Savior they served.
You are a lost man, you need to get saved or you are going to wake up in Hell wishing it was only a dream.
Ok, let me sum up this scattered tirade....you insist you are better than God. I suppose you also insist you have the right to live outside of Hell forever, and you have proof that you will never be in Hell. Can you show me your proof?
You are thinking for yourself as if you are God. You need to try thinking about things the way God thinks about them. You need to think about yourself the way God thinks about you. Thinking for yourself isn't doing anything for you other than taking you down in death, with one foot in the grave and the other on thin ice melting over the fire of Hell. God loves you or He would let that thin ice break through now and you would be lost forever in Hell.
What you are doing is trying to preserve the pleasures of your sin and that can only lead to death and the loss of all pleasure. All of your "thinking for yourself" in reality is self-defeating. God is trying to give you the victory over death and you are trying to seal your own tomb.
God gives you the freedom to think for yourself however you want to think. It has been said that love and freedom are two sides of the same coin. Even if you are destroying yourself going your own way thinking for yourself and not caring what God thinks of you, God will allow you to do that because He loves you.
You need to start thinking of yourself the way God thinks of you...and that will lead to eternal life instead of eternal death where you are going. What are you afraid of? Are you afraid of taking sides against all evil? Are you afraid you will lose friends if you stop sinning the way they like to sin?
There is no such thing as hell. It was made up by Jesus, who was in turn made up by the Egyptians who got it from another culture. The story is just a long standing myth; and I being atheist do not believe I lose everything in death. If you think back to a time before you were born you'll notice that you were dead... therefore, you would go back to which you came... presumably to come back again...It happened once, it can surely happen again.
Also, this is an opinion debate! Not a for or against debate.
This is a wonderful display of the modern internet mind-numbing in which many people are persuaded to believe a few big mouth raving lunatics who ignore history and state a new version of it as factual with an assortment of "proofs". Weak minded people buy these "myther" teachings because they think they are smart by parroting them.
Your diatribe, the "mythers" argument, is a sidetrack from the debate. You are avoiding discussing the issue which is basically believing that you have the right to exist outside of Hell forever.
I say you do not have that right. You say you do have that right.
Where did you get that right?
You are arguing for your right to exist outside of Hell by trying to trash Jesus Christ. I think that's an extremely weak argument. You have no right to live, and that fact is proved by your dying which is being finalized. God gives you time and God puts an end to it, and then you get what you deserve if you are not forgiven....and that is Hell's confinement in torments, believe it or not.
Your assertion that there is no such thing as Hell is something you don't have the ability to guarantee. You just have to prove it for yourself because you can ONLY prove it for yourself. You will see if Hell is real, won't you? Oh yeah, I forgot, you claim you already see. Uh huh, sure, you are the god, you see past the grave...yeah right. Who you trying to fool, hater? You just hate God and love death, admit it. And you think you know there is no Hell...yeah right.
Somebody is leading you to believe that you have the right to exist as a sinner outside of Hell forever. You are making statements as factual when they are based on nothing but your own desire to exist outside of Hell forever. The only way you can test your beliefs is for your count-down in time in this world to end.
I held this kind of belief system for years. It's Americanized Hinduism, existentialism....whatever you want to call it. I was deep into it. Because of the way you have acted, I know you are nothing more than in initiate in this kind of believe presuming to come back again after your time is finalized and you leave this world. I am fully aware of the multitude of supporting experiences and encounters which people have by which they believe things are being proved to support their beliefs.....so-called past life experiences, spirit encounters, whatever....it's all the same old stuff with new twists of how it's expressed verbally, changing with the times. This "think back before you were born to the time you were dead" stuff is a common line pushed in colleges and internet today to support atheism by teaching existentialism. Existentialism and atheism are structurally the same belief system....one says "I exist, therefore I am", the other says, "I exist until I stop existing"
Both of them are self-delusional, both of them seek to delude themselves into believing they do not deserve to die and burn in Hell forever separate from God as a sinner.
Both of them are pretty much incapable admitting the truth....but God can change them. God loves you and wants you to be saved from Hell, but if you insist you have the right to exist outside of Hell, you are forcing God to prove you wrong. If you insist you have the right to live in this world, you are forcing God to prove you wrong.
You are fighting against God and losing. If I were you, I would stop before it's too late and all is lost. You are losing it all...sorry. I hope you find God giving you the victory someday like me.
Here on Earth is here on Earth. The "hell" you are referring to is an expletieve, a cuss word, and I would appreciate it if you would stop using it that way in this debate. Being annoyed by people is not Hell. By the way you are acting, I think it's pretty obvious that you are on your way to the real Hell where God forever separates sinners from Himself because that's what they wanted, to be separate from God. You are loving your sin all the way through death into Hell. Correct?
this is a bit Nitpicky, but genius is not the opposite of fool. Fool is a matter of perception, IE: "You're a fool for believing that was gold!" genius is a matter of learning. IE: "Spotting that pattern and finishing the equation the way you did, That was genius!"
Yes there is a Hell and if you say there is no God and no Hell, then God will let you have the proof of Hell which you say cannot be found and you won't like it.
Take a wild guess...my guess is that you will never know until by finalizing your death you get the proof you are talking about.
The burden of proof is on you to prove there is no Hell, and the only real way to test your assertion that Hell is not there is for you to go and see for yourself....and that's what you are doing, isn't it? You are going to see for yourself...you think you see past the grave now, and you are going to prove it, right? When will you prove it? How do you know you are going to prove there is no Hell? You can't prove it...you can only die and find out for sure.
I already know. I admitted my guilt and God's right to punish me, counted myself as good as dead with no right to life, and received Jesus Christ as my life. Now I know I have eternal life and I am saved from Hell and Jesus Christ is risen from the dead, is God and always was God.
I have this confidence because God Himself, Jesus Christ, lives in me. I know the Truth, Jesus Christ is the Truth. He is God who died in my place to save me from Hell, and rose from the dead to be my justification for life because I conceded to His right to rule over me and received His mercy in His resurrection, I am forgiven and saved from Hell.
I wish I could make you see, but only God can make you see and you won't see if you are unwilling to see the Truth...if you won't admit that you deserve to burn in Hell forever as a sinner, you surely will be forced to do it by your sinfulness which cannot be in heaven.
No... the neutral position is not knowing whether or not Hell exists. I am not claiming that Hell does not exist. You are claiming it does. You must have a reason to believing this, so I'm asking you to provide that reason.
"Hell exists" is a positive claim, and as such requires proof. I am not trying to make the claim that Hell does not exist, I am responding to your claim that it does.
You "admitting your guilt" and "receiving Jesus as your life" may be things you believe, but none of that is proof that Jesus and Hell are real.
I have this confidence because God Himself, Jesus Christ, lives in me. I know the Truth, Jesus Christ is the Truth. He is God who died in my place to save me from Hell, and rose from the dead to be my justification for life because I conceded to His right to rule over me and received His mercy in His resurrection, I am forgiven and saved from Hell.
That is a roundabout way of you saying that you have confidence that what you believe is true because it's true. That's not a reason. You say you believe in it because it's what you have decided to believe. You have to say why if you're going to make a point. If you don't have a reason why, then you should reevaluate your beliefs.
If you don't want to believe what is true, the only reason for not believing it is because you don't want to believe it. I don't know what to call that other than willful ignorance....I think "circular reasoning" and "logical fallacy" are worn out cliché's designed to make lazy minds think they can see past the grave.
The neutral position is positively dying. You are positively dying and claiming to be neutral. You are trying to fool yourself. You can't be neutral. You can say you are, but you are not. There is no neutral position except in the fantasy of your mind. You are denying Hell is real because you are insisting it can't be proved to you. You are positively dying to find out the truth in the matter. You are carrying your burden to the grave. You can't be neutral no matter how much you insist you are neutral. If you repeat a lie often enough, it will be believed and apparently you are believing it because you keep insisting you are neutral when you are positively dying. Time has to stop for you to be neutral. To be neutral in death, time must end for you and your existence must end. You can't prove you will un-exist except by dying and the burden of that proof is on you because it's all about and for you because you can't get out of it. This is about your own personal well being, God loves you and wants you to have eternal life and stop being nothing but a wet pile of dust dying as a sinner defying God forever in death. The pleasures of your sinning is not worth it. You are making a mistake asking me to prove something so that you can stop carrying the burden of proof to prove the opposite. I can't prove what you won't believe.
Even if I tell you personal things like how rich I am or how poor I am, or how weak I am or how powerful I am, you won't believe it if you don't want to believe it. I know the truth and you can believe it or not. I don't need you to believe it. I have no burden of proof. The truth simply is the truth if you believe or not. I don't have to prove it. If you don't want to believe the truth, then you have to prove it is not true. You need to believe the truth for your own well being. Dying is a terrible way to find the truth. You need to believe it before you die and it's too late.
Prove it. Prove what you are saying. How are you going to prove it? Show me the evidence? How can you show me evidence after your death is finalized, which is the only way you can get evidence?
If you won't believe God, then the only way you can get evidence is by dying...you are trying to prove something and you can only prove it by dying so the burden of proof is on you because you have proved nothing so far.
I need no proof and I don't have to convince you, you can find out for yourself. That's on you, not me. Find out for yourself, that's not my burden... it's your burden, it's on you....and you are proving what you are saying, right? Sure. I'm not interested in what you are trying to prove because I know you are wrong and being foolish in it. I don't want you to end up in Hell to get your proof....but if that's the way you must have it, that's your burden and it's on your shoulders to carry to the grave with you.
Prove it. Prove what you are saying. How are you going to prove it? Show me the evidence? How can you show me evidence after your death is finalized, which is the only way you can get evidence?
I am not making a claim. All I am doing is asking you to provide proof for the positive claim you made. If you can't do that, then your claim is unsupported and considered invalid.
If you won't believe God, then the only way you can get evidence is by dying...you are trying to prove something and you can only prove it by dying so the burden of proof is on you because you have proved nothing so far.
So why do you believe in it? You are claiming that the only way to get proof of this is by dying, which would suggest that you don't believe in it. Or, it suggests that you believe in things without proof. And that means that you believe everything that has no proof. If not, you are being hypocritical.
I need no proof and I don't have to convince you, you can find out for yourself.
It is your job on a debate site to convince others of your points. If you are not willing to do that, then do not use this site.
You are making the claim that you will not believe Hell is real without proof. By dying you will get your proof. You are asking me to provide proof, but that is not my job. I can't prove anything you will not believe, so I'm not trying to prove it. If you wont' see it for yourself, you won't see it except by dying and that is what you are doing, carrying your own burden to the grave. The burden of proof is on you and you are bearing it all the way in your death, dying for the proof you say you need before you will believe what you don't want to believe, saying you can't believe it without proof. You are insisting there in only one way for you to get proof and you are doing it....dying.
You probably deny it all, but that won't get you out of it.
You are making the claim that you will not believe Hell is real without proof.
True. I will not believe that Hell is real unless I am given evidence that Hell is real. I think that is perfectly logical.
By dying you will get your proof.
By this argument, the only way that you can know if Hell is real is if you die and go there. I agree with that. My problem is that you don't follow this logic.
You claim to know that Hell is real even though you have yet to die. Since you haven't died, my question is why do you believe that Hell is real?
You are asking me to provide proof, but that is not my job.
Well, you claim you believe in Hell even though you haven't died, which, according to you, is how you get proof of Hell's existence. I am asking you why you believe in Hell even though you haven't died.
I can't prove anything you will not believe, so I'm not trying to prove it.
So you don't think that your reasons for believing in Hell are believable? Then why do you believe in them?
If you wont' see it for yourself, you won't see it except by dying and that is what you are doing, carrying your own burden to the grave.
If i won't see what? What am I missing that would make it obvious that Hell is real? You certainly seem to have found this evidence, so why are you unable to share it?
The burden of proof is on you and you are bearing it all the way in your death
I am not trying to prove anything right now, so there is no way I can have the burden of proof.
You are insisting there in only one way for you to get proof and you are doing it....dying.
Actually, that is what you are insisting.
You probably deny it all, but that won't get you out of it.
I'm not denying, I'm debating. It's what the site is for. :)
I'm not trying to prove it. I'm asking you that if you can't prove it, why you think it's true. I understand the benefits of believing in it, and why it would be beneficial to you if it was true, but none of that is logical reason to believe that it actually is true.
You are insisting that because I cannot prove to you that Hell is real, it is not real. You are believing something you cannot possibly know. I know what I believe and it is entirely logical.
If you understand the benefits of believing what I believe, why do you not believe it? The logical reason to believe it is actually true is that you are dying and will die if you don't get saved. Do you want to be saved? If you don't, then do not pretend to understand the benefit of believing what I believe. If you want to be saved, I know the Savior and I know where you can find Him personally so you can know Him as your Savior and be saved from dying in Hell.
The only logical reason to belief is to care about yourself. After you believe, you realize that you are cared for by God...."the object of mercy, and unchanging love" (from a song I sing often, "I'm waking up singing".....and I usually actually do wake up singing that song)
"I'm waking up singing, and loving the Lord,
delightfully trusting, in His holy word.
My glad heart keeps ringing with praises to Him
who purchased my pardon, and saved me from sin.
Oh glory! He loves me! Halleluiah, I'm His!
My hearts overflowing with heavenly bliss!
Don't tell me I'm crazy, I know I'm not mad;
This isn't an illness, inside I'm too glad.
I'm waking up singing, and loving the Lord.
Delightfully trusting in His holy word.
My glad heart keeps ringing with praises to Him.
Who purchased my pardon and saved me from sin.
Halleluiah I'm God's child! I'm under the blood!
The object of mercy, and unchanging love.
So what's wrong with rejoicing? My heart knows it's right.
My eyes were opened at Calvary, I'm a child of the Light.
I do. However, i also debate my ideas. Which is why I'm on a debate site. If you are not willing to legitimately defend your arguments, get. Off. This. Site.
My question still stands. Why do you believe it? What is your reason to believe it to be true? And again, not what are the benefits of believing in it or anything of that sort, because you've made that very clear, and as I've said, that is not a logical reason to believe something.
Are you deaf? Are you unable to read and comprehend my replies?
You ask questions and then say you don't want answers....you don't accept the answer. You might as well stop asking of you won't accept the answer. Your question is not a question, it's you raising your hand like a stop sign saying you can't see any reason to believe when it's only your own hand blocking you from seeing the answer. You need to drop your stop-sign hand and open your eyes and ears....ask God to open them for you, in honesty believe He can, and He will.
I know Hell is real, and I have pretty well explained how I know and why you should believe it. I can't help it if you don't want to know and will only believe it by being in it. I'm simply trying to get you to realize for yourself, to see for yourself, before it's too late and you are foced to see. Then you WON"T want to see it. If you don't believe me, just wait and see....God is trying to warn you and He wants to save you from Hell so you don't have to see it by waking up in it which is the only way you are going to see it the way you are asking to see it. I don't have to see it to know it's real, and I'm quite happy knowing I don't have to see it.
It's like this...if I tell you I have a dollar in my hand, and in reality I have a dollar in my hand, do you have to see it to believe it? If you insist you have to see it to believe it, I'm going to mock you because I know you are talking like a fool while I'm sitting here with a dollar in my hand.
Look friend, if it bothers you that I'm trying to warn you that Hell is real and you don't want to hear about it, I'll leave you alone and you can just find out for yourself, you can just see for yourself, and you surely will, won't you? Tell me you won't and I'll say prove it.
talk about circular logic.....you are the one going in circles trying to avoid the truth of what you are going to see.
I know Hell is real, and I have pretty well explained how I know and why you should believe it.
No. You have certainly done the latter: explained how I will benefit from believing in Hell. But you haven't given any actual reason for me to believe that Hell is real. Your only way for me to know this, you say, is to die. Since you haven't died, I want to know how you know. It's not that hard. Are you just hoping?
I don't have to see it to know it's real, and I'm quite happy knowing I don't have to see it.
So if you don't need evidence to know it's real, how do you know it's real? I'm not asking why would it be good for you if it was real, i'm not asking what would be great about it if it was real, how do you know???
It's like this...if I tell you I have a dollar in my hand, and in reality I have a dollar in my hand, do you have to see it to believe it?
Well, if you tell me you have a dollar in your hand, that seems personally reasonable to me. But if anyone asked me if I was certain that you had a dollar in your hand, I could not answer yes. I could say it was likely, since I have seen dollars before and I have no reason to believe you are lying to me, but I still wouldn't know.
And, if you went on a debate site and claimed that there was a dollar in your hand, I would debate. I would ask you to open your hand so that the dollar can be seen. That way, you have a point. Otherwise, your claim means nothing. You're perfectly welcome to believe it yourself, but if that's your only goal, you have no reason to post about it on the internet or talk about it to any of your friends.
Allow me to present another analogy: If I claim that I have a live unicorn that shoot rainbows, but I won't show anyone, but you should believe in it, and I go on a debate website and use this unicorn as the basis for every single argument I make, what would your response be?
Look friend, if it bothers you that I'm trying to warn you that Hell is real and you don't want to hear about it, I'll leave you alone and you can just find out for yourself, you can just see for yourself, and you surely will, won't you? Tell me you won't and I'll say prove it.
I have never said that I know for certain that Hell is not real. That's why I'm asking for a reason to believe that it is.
you are the one going in circles trying to avoid the truth of what you are going to see.
You keep saying that. All I'm asking for is an objective reason to believe it to be "the truth."
"So why do you believe in it? You are claiming that the only way to get proof of this is by dying, which would suggest that you don't believe in it. Or, it suggests that you believe in things without proof. And that means that you believe everything that has no proof. If not, you are being hypocritical. "
You are not listening. My death (as well as yours if you would believe it) was accomplished by God Himself as the Son of God. He conquered death for me, He took my death on Himself, it is finished. By faith I am united with Him in His death, my death is accomplished and He now lives in me, I live in His resurrection forever and death cannot hold me in Hell. This is God's desire, for you to believe on His Son and be pardoned from the penalty of your sin which is eternal death in Hell.
The only problem you have is that you enjoy being against God and doing your own thing your own way, dying to fulfill your burden of proof which you insist must be met before you believe Hell is real. You can keep your demand for proof, I'm not giving it because you don't want it. You want to believe you are automatically exempt from Hell and have the right to exist outside of it now and forever....go ahead and believe that all you want as long as you can, and I hope for your sake that is a very, very, very, long time. I don't want you to get the proof you are demanding the way you are demanding it.
The reason to believe it is because God loves you and is trying to save you from Hell so He can enjoy having you in Heaven, give you all of His blessings as one of His children in heaven forever...the best existence you can possibly imagine is nothing compared to how good God prepares things in heaven for those who love Him.
He wants to give you a new heart, make you a new person with heavenly desires and affections. He wants to make you be like Jesus, with Jesus, through Jesus forever......like Him in His resurrection with a new body, immortal, free of pain, sickness, dying....If you will receive Him as your Savior, He will be in you a well of water springing up to eternal life.
Haven't you heard Psalm 23?
"The LORD is my shepherd, I shall not want." (knowing Him is contentment).
"He maketh me to lie down in green pastures. He leadeth me beside the still waters." (knowing Him is satisfying)
"He restoreth my soul".... (mental, spiritual, emotional healing)"He leadeth me in the paths of righteousness for his name's sake"....... (learning to live right, do right, think right, speak right, be right because it honors God. He created us because He is good and he wants us to be good to give Him the honor He deserves for creating us. He leads on paths of righteousness...it's a path for our soul's restoration to wholeness, fitness for eternal life in heaven)
"Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I shall fear no evil: for thou art with me, they rod and thy staff, they comfort me".........the rod and the staff are shepherds tools for guiding, teaching, and protecting his flock. Knowing we are His gives us confidence to go through places, things, and times which without Him would be terrifying and deadly.
"Thou preparest a table for me in the presence of mine enemies: thou annointest my head with oil, my cup runneth over".....knowing He loves us is knowing He protects us and in the presence of our enemies we have peace and rest. The anointing oil is soothing, the cup running over is His love overflowing our hearts so it spills out to those around us....so we desire them to know Him the same as we know Him.....
"Surely goodness and mercy shall follow me all the days of my life: and I will dwell in the house of the LORD forever."
The reason for you to believe is for your own well being.......God loves you and wants what is best for you because He is good and He delights to show Himself as being good. You have to believe it or He cannot show His goodness in and through you. He wants you to be remembered forever with the living in Heaven rather than forgotten forever with the dying in Hell.
I'm telling you every which way I can think of....God is offering you forgiveness, mercy, pardon, eternal life through Jesus Christ. What more reason to believe can you want?
Man has not seen with the eye, nor heard with the ear, nor perceived with the understanding the good things that God has in store for those who love Him...for His enemies, His wrath is stored up. God loves his enemies now or they would all have no more time to be saved from Hell and He would no longer be pleading with them to trust Him.
By the way, I'm writing what I know from knowing Jesus is risen from the dead and is God through whom I approach the throne of God in prayer. I know Him personally, He knows me, He knows every dark little evil and secret about me and He loves me, He has me covered by the blood of Jesus Christ who gave Himself as the payment, the sacrifice of God for my sins so I am covered. I have eternal life in His resurrection, I received Him as my Savior and I know I have eternal life, I know I'm forgiven, I know Heaven is my home and I will be with Jesus there forever JOYFULLY thanking and praising my Creator who became a man like me to be my Savior, to give me life eternally with no pain, no dying, no sorrow, no sickness.
I hope you have now found reason to believe, and if you are still listening I will be more than happy to help you find reason to believe.
That is all incentive to believe. That's benefits of believing if it is true. However, the fact that believing in something leads to good results does not make that thing true.
If I say: You should believe in the Goat King as your god because if you do, when you die, you will receive eternal love and happiness and everything else Jesus gives you multiplied by two. That doesn't make the Goat King real.
I don't think it's my job to convince anybody of my points. I am taking a side in this debate and stating my reasons for being on that side. My job is not to win the debate, but simply to put up arguments supporting my position which I am doing. I do not expect to win this debate or everybody here would be saved from Hell and going to heaven with their sins forgiven.
You seem to be saying my points cannot be defended, therefore I am not defending them. I can't help it if you are going to sit there with your fingers in your ears and your eyes closed insisting you are seeing and hearing no answer.
I believe it because I know it's true. I had the burden of proof to prove there was no Hell. I could not carry that burden and I laid it down at the feet of Jesus Christ. He took my burden away in His resurrection. I am with Him, He is with me, and soon I will see Him face to face and be forever changed into His image and likeness forever, a child of God adopted at the price of His own blood...bought back from my sin, from death, and from Hell.
I carry no burden of proof. I need no proof. I am not God, I don't have to prove anything. You don't have to believe if you don't want to, but your burden of proof will remain on you forever if you insist on having it met your own way. You don't have the right to demand what you are demanding, the only way your demand can be met is for God to leave you in Hell forever. God does not want that but you are asking for it with your stupid "burden of proof"
This is circular reasoning. It is the definition of a logical fallacy. Literally, your central belief system is based on faulty logic. Just so you know.
I had the burden of proof to prove there was no Hell.
Well, if you can't achieve that, that doesn't mean that there is a Hell, it just means that we don't yet know if there is or isn't a Hell. However, if we can find no evidence of a Hell, it is likely that a Hell does not exist.
I could not carry that burden and I laid it down at the feet of Jesus Christ.
It seems as though your argument is: "I couldn't figure things out, so I went to an explanation that was created to have a scapegoat for all problems." That doesn't make that scapegoat true.
You don't have to believe if you don't want to, but your burden of proof will remain on you forever if you insist on having it met your own way.
As I have said, I am not trying to prove anything right now. The neutral position is not that anything exists or is real. Once you have been given evidence of something existence (proof) then you believe it. Until then, you don't know. So if God is real, then I need a reason to believe God is real. You are determined to avoid providing that.
You don't have the right to demand what you are demanding, the only way your demand can be met is for God to leave you in Hell forever.
You seem to have what I am demanding, or at least think you do. Why is it so ridiculous for me to ask why you believe what you believe?
"As I have said, I am not trying to prove anything right now. The neutral position is not that anything exists or is real. Once you have been given evidence of something existence (proof) then you believe it. Until then, you don't know. So if God is real, then I need a reason to believe God is real. You are determined to avoid providing that. "
You can only take the neutral position by not being in reality. In reality, you are dying and your demand for proof remains with you while you claim neutrality. You can't stop yourself form dying, you can't stop yourself from getting proof of the reality of Hell. You are insisting there is no proof this side of the grave that Hell is real...fine. So you exclude proof and claim to be neutral in beliefs. That does not change the fact that you are dying and proof is coming. You are going to see the proof, aren't you? Or are you hoping you never see the proof of what you don't want to believe?
Try to think logically. What in the world are you doing here other than dying? You can't claim neutrality and deny the proof that is coming.
"logical fallacy" and "circular reasoning" are clichés which can prove nothing. The only way you can get your proof, if you insist you won't believe Hell is real, is by dying which is exactly what you are doing. This is reality, tick tock of the clock counting down to zero. You can call it circular logic, or reasoning fallacy, or whatever cliche college air-head professors or writers or whoever taught you to be a good parrot for repeating.....the clock is counting down to zero and then your demand for proof will be fully met if that's the way you want it. How in the world you think progression of time toward finalization of death is circular logic is beyond me. I'm not asking you to prove anything for me, you are proving it for yourself, by yourself, your own way. God allows you to do that and I honestly hope you do good in it.
"Well, if you can't achieve that, that doesn't mean that there is a Hell, it just means that we don't yet know if there is or isn't a Hell. However, if we can find no evidence of a Hell, it is likely that a Hell does not exist."
You are using a logical fallacy here. You are saying "we don't know yet if there is or isn't a Hell". Please correct me if I'm wrong, but the way I'm reading this is that you are including me in "we". "We" may include you and people who think it is likely that Hell is not real and you think you will probably prove you are right by finalizing your death. It does not include me. I know Hell is real, I know Hell will confine and consume all sin and sinners forever in the Lake of Fire. Speak for yourself please. If you are going to use the word "we", do not include me in your "we" or you are committing fraud. I know what I know and you can't change that by saying I don't know it. YOU are the one who does not know...you and anybody else who says they don't know. If you say you don't know, I believe you. If I say I know, you call me a liar. That's your prerogative. It doesn't change the facts, and you are going to find out because you are proving your position, aren't you?
By saying "we really don't know if there is a Hell or not" you at least are admitting that you don't know. Can you also admit that you will find out by dying if you don't find out another way?
"This is circular reasoning. It is the definition of a logical fallacy. Literally, your central belief system is based on faulty logic. Just so you know."
You say you don't know what you are talking about so you are asserting no claim. You are the one using circular logic to try to prove that you don't know what you are talking about and you are doing a pretty good job of convincing me that you don't know.
My "central belief system" is focused on Jesus Christ. It's Him you are denying, your Creator. You are trying to convince yourself that you are exempt from Hell....either that or you simply don't care if you get stuck there forever. I'm about ready to concede that you have convinced yourself that there is no Hell. Ok, I give up....you have convinced yourself that you are not going to burn in Hell forever.
"You seem to have what I am demanding, or at least think you do. Why is it so ridiculous for me to ask why you believe what you believe?"
It is so ridiculous for you to ask why I believe what I believe because I have told you more than once and you won't accept the answer. Jesus Christ is the answer. You don't want Him because you love being a sinner with whatever pleasures you find in it. You are destroying yourself and not believing it, and God has no place for you other than Hell if you have to go on doing your own way the way you are.
Why are you banning debators who write good debates and get points from other debators?? I find this disturbing.. This shows that you cannot stand up for yourself and hence you ban them! Coward.. I know you are gonna ban me now so you mine as well do it.
Um, excuse me Mr. Clown, you might want to read some of what I thought was pretty good back and forth here with Piratedog.
It also might interest you that it's me giving most points to the debators here. I think points are kinda silly, you can have all of mine...in fact, I'm giving you one now.
If you want to discuss the topic, why don't you do it instead of sit there whining and begging me to ban you for doing nothing but whining? Quit being disturbed. God wants you to be whole and have peace from Him which passes understanding. God is offering you a peace agreement between you and Him now if you will quit whining and start listening to Him. He's trying to get you saved from Hell.
The people I banned were mostly just whining and insulting exactly like you are doing here. Pirateelfdog is the only one I recall who has actually put up something resembling adult conversation for debating. He made a good example here, showing you up as the coward in this topic.
Why don't you argue the topic with me so I can try to convince you that you deserve to burn in Hell the same as me and you can be forgiven by God and saved from it the same as me? You are the coward. Put up your argument in the debate or shut up your whining please.
After this, I certainly will ban you if that's all you want and your twisted mind makes you think you scored a point by getting me to ban you....put up or shut up, post an argument in the debate or quit your crybaby whining.
Don't you get tired of posting the same nonsense over and over? Nobody here actually debates you because you don't have the decency to hold a legitimate conversation, and nobody here takes you seriously.
So, again: don't you get tired of just yelling at people?
Whatever. It's a guy who is in a fire and apparently not feeling the pain of the heat. Enjoy your Disneyworld while you can. For you, the next time you fail to capitalize the word Hell as a proper noun, you will be banned. I have already told you that if you spell God's name with a small "g" or refer to Him as an "it", I will stop talking to you forever....of course unless I see a clear reversal of your obstinance toward God. Hell is a proper noun, the name of a specific place, and in this debate YOU will spell it with a capital "H" or be banned. You get special rules, just for you, because you are special.
Go ahead, ban me for referring to "hell" or "god". It just proves what I have been saying about you the whole time: You are here to enact your little power trips, nothing more.
I don't know why I thought you would show any better behavior than you have ever shown...you are banned, and for spelling God's name with a small g after I said I would not talk to you any more, I'm done talking to you unless I see a clear reversal of your obstinance toward God.
god god god god god god god god god god god god god god god god god god god god god god god god god god god god god god god god god god god god god god god god god god god god god god god god god god god god god god god god god god god god god god god god god god god god god god god god god god god god god god god god god god god god god god god god god god god god god god god god god god god god god god god god god god god god god god god god god god god god god god god god god god god god god god god god god god god god god god god god god god god god god god god god god god god god god god god god god god god god god god god god god god god god god god god god god god god god god god god god god god god god god god god god god god god god god god god god god god god god god god god god god god god god god god god god god god god god god god god god god god god god god god god god god god god god god god god god god god god god god god god god god god god god god god god god god god god god god god god god god god god god god god god god god god god god god god god god god god god god god
You are banning people from debate because they commit perceived minor grammatical errors that offend your religious sensibilities. This does not help your case against the allegations being made towards your emotional or intellectual maturity.
P.S. When people write about god, they are not always writing about your Christian God. When they write about hell, they are not always writing about your Christian Hell. They may not capitalize either because they are referring to abstract rather than specific concepts.
Regurgitate your usual baseless claims if you like. I have said what I wanted to say and am unlikely to waste my time further. Besides, if you are true to your word I will not have the opportunity to do so having not capitalized every use of hell and god in this post.
OOOOHHHH!!!! BURN!!!! SHOTS FIREED!!! GET REKT!!!! OOOHHH!!! BURNNN!!! 360 24 DORITOES!!!! YAHHH!!! HAHAHAHAHAHAHA TAKE THAT SAINTSNOW!!!! SOMEONE GET THE CAMERA!!!
So you think that you are better, stronger, smarter than God. I accept that as your final argument. If you keep on with it, one day God will accept that as your final argument and all indications of His goodness will be withdrawn from you in the fire of Hell. As an illustration of how your argument can suddenly be finalized by the One who is in authority, you are banned here by this one Saint.
If you have no viewpoint, and none is represented here, I guess you amount to nothing and enjoy nothingness. I guess that explains a lot of your behavior though it is not an excuse for anything but dying and you sure are doing it, aren't you?
Can we give a hand of applause to the Cartman here?
I gave you a third vote point, even though you have contributed NOTHING to the discussion. At least Cartman made a feeble attempt at being humorous in contributing nothing to the discussion. I will ban both of you guys soon if you keep on making empty minded posts...at least Cartman has not been insulting like you have repeatedly here.
You both deserve to be banned now, but I don't want to ban you ...I want you to reason with God about your right to exist outside of Hell and see that you have no such right apart from His mercy. To secure His mercy for you, He shed His blood on the cross for you, took your place in death so you can have His forgiveness because He is risen from the dead after He paid your price for you.
The pleasures of your pride and the sinful indulgences you enjoy are not worth dying for, not worth spending eternity in Hell separted from God like you are now, forever, by your sin.
God is offering you peace through the blood of His cross and I suggest you accept God's peace offer and be saved from Hell.
You called me a coward and an idiot, both of which I am far from. You would not say those things to my face and stand behind your big mouth. You have contributed nothing to this debate and seem to be bent on a mission of trying to rally support for your animosity toward me. Because of your attitude, insults, and disruption I was well within right to ban you after your first post and you know it because you expected me to ban you then. This is the last time I will appeal for you to discuss the topic of the debate which is a person's belief regarding their right or not having the right to exist outside of Hell. If you don't have the mental capacity to drop your personal animosity toward me and discuss the topic, you leave me no choice but to ban you.
And please don't tell me you are a Christian unless you can explain exactly when it was that you realized you deserve to burn in Hell and Jesus is God who is risen from the dead by whose blood your sins have been fully paid for so you know without a shadow of a doubt that you are going to heaven the moment your time in your current body of death expires. There are many religions in which people claim to be Christians but they are not Christians at all. That is not the topic of this debate, and I don't want it going off on that tangent.
Engage in adult conversation without insulting me or I will ban you. This is the last time I will ask.
I wasn't being humorous. Your whole debate is a massive straw man. No one has the thought process represented by your debate description. Not one person. You clearly made this description to attack atheists because you think that is how they think.
Well even though you were not being humorous, I found you to be funny. You'll just have to pardon me for that. You did not directly attack, insult me personally but you focused your comments against the debate. I am enjoying some excellent discussion in this topic with some people and you are not one of them. You just sit there saying there is nothing to talk about. I can't help it if you look at something and say it is nothing and then you can't talk about it.
I'm not attacking anybody. Atheists can be atheists if they want to, and if they don't want to be challenged in their beliefs they best not read my stuff because I will directly challenge them. I'm trying to get them to think about what they are doing to themselves, propelling themselves into death and Hell when I know they can have eternal life. I'm trying to get them to discuss their beliefs in an adult manner which will force them to move past their parrot brain cliché's of "I have no god-belief" and such stuff.
Maybe you don't have the though process represented by this debate because you are purposely keeping your mind closed because you are afraid of the truth about yourself....the truth about you is the same about me...we both have hearts full of evil and deserve to burn in Hell, we both have turned against God and in our hearts murdered Him (or at least desired to do the impossible to murder God). That's all atheism is, really, an attempt to murder God when in reality you are only killing yourself and propelling yourself into Hell.
Well even though you were not being humorous, I found you to be funny. You'll just have to pardon me for that. You did not directly attack, insult me personally but you focused your comments against the debate. I am enjoying some excellent discussion in this topic with some people and you are not one of them. You just sit there saying there is nothing to talk about. I can't help it if you look at something and say it is nothing and then you can't talk about it.
You congratulated him on attacking your ideas, not your person. That's called effective debating. If this is out of the ordinary for you, you should probably revaluate what you expect when you go to 'debate.'
I'm not attacking anybody. Atheists can be atheists if they want to, and if they don't want to be challenged in their beliefs they best not read my stuff because I will directly challenge them. I'm trying to get them to think about what they are doing to themselves, propelling themselves into death and Hell when I know they can have eternal life. I'm trying to get them to discuss their beliefs in an adult manner which will force them to move past their parrot brain cliché's of "I have no god-belief" and such stuff.
You are trying to get them to think about their consequences, and you are telling them what you believe their consequences to be, but you aren't giving them any reason to believe this consequences to be factual. You need to start providing less of the former and more of the latter.
That's all atheism is, really, an attempt to murder God when in reality you are only killing yourself and propelling yourself into Hell.
No. A person who was attempting to defeat God would have to believe God exists. An atheist, by definition, does not.
You are not listening very well. I have given extensive reasons to believe. There are other approaches I could take, and some have tried to lead me off track from this debate to argue some of those ways, but this debate focuses on what is best for you, and it is best for you to ascertain that you will not spend eternity in Hell and will have a place in heaven with God for eternity because He loves you and wants the best for you.
Ok, let's try again....
Consequences are leading to your finalized death. You are dying and the consequences of the process lead to finality of death. You do not have eternal life, you have eternal death unless you receive eternal life from God, which would make you saved from dying. Dying is forever. Living is forever. You are doing one or the other. The proof of that fact is the grave that is waiting for you.
I understand that reality is a difficult concept, and people generally want to believe they are living and not dying because the truth is painful.
Believing God does not exist does not make Him go away. It's wishful thinking in which the atheist is attempting to convince himself that he is eternally exempt from Hell and freed from life's problems by death. So the atheist believes Hell is a myth, fine. They can believe that but it won't keep them out of Hell.
Atheism is nothing but wishful thinking trying to make God go away, trying to murder Him so He has no power to rule over the atheist in life or in death. The Bible has a four letter word to describe an atheist. No need for college classes or long winded words claiming to be intelligent for the way they deny the fact that they hate God and believe they have murdered Him by saying He never existed. The Bible puts all atheistic mumbo jumbo into one little four letter word...and guess what it is?
Now lets try to get back more into focus on the debate. A person who insists God is not there does not want God to be there because they don't like the implications of believing God rules over them. Because He loves them, He will let them go out into the Godless eternity which they desire, and they will end up in Hell where it will never be possible to know God is good and that He loves them because they will feel nothing but the indignation of His wrath for their choice of paying for their own sins....and the fire of Hell will consume and contain their sin forever and they deserve it. We all deserve it. I am forgiven and saved from Hell. You can be also. If you don't want to be, then you certainly will not be. The only person blocking you from God is you, and you don't have to do that to yourself,,,,,,pushing yourself away from Him and running out of time, in danger of forever being separated from Him in Hell by your own stubborn pride.
A person who insists God is not there does not want God to be there because they don't like the implications of believing God rules over them.
This is sort of true. Atheists hate the implication that God rules over them because it means He is doing a horrible job. When the world would be exactly the same without God there is no reason to think God rules over you.
Atheists don't want God to rule over them because they want to do whatever they feel like doing in the name of the Hell they insist is not there any more than God is there.
We all deserve to die and burn in Hell. A real Christian is forgiven, and you can be forgiven, really. You can be saved from Hell, God wants you to be saved from Hell because He loves you and wants you to be with Him in His Kingdom of Heaven forever to enjoy the life He gives you.
Pointing your finger at others who do wrong is not an excuse for you to do wrong. If a Christian is being unholy, you have to question if they are really a Christian. Many people say they are Christians but are not born into God's family by the Spirit of God, and do not have Jesus Christ living in them.
You can find fault in any human being. You can find fault in me...it's no secret, ask anybody who knows me, I have no shortage of faults but unlike an atheist, I fear God and know He despises sin (wrongdoing) and I do all I can to avoid it, and if I am overtaken in a fault I admit my wrong and seek God's mercy and His grace to enable me to be obedient to Him to do right no matter how much it costs me. I know my sins are forgiven because God Himself paid for them with His blood, died for me, and conquered death and I have believed on Him, repented of my sins, and received Him. Who is paying for your sins, who is falling in your faults?
Christians who do wrong as if it's not a big deal probably are phonies, fake, not true believers who are willing to suffer for obeying God. If you want to be a phony Christian, you can be.
Jesus said many people will come to Him and say "Lord, Lord....pretending to be Christians. They don't fool God. Jesus will say to them "depart from me, ye workers of iniquity, into everlasting fire".
Saying "I'm just as good as you, and better than most, and not as bad as some" will never get you out of death and never get you excused from Hell. You need to be secured by God's mercy which is found by trusting in the blood He shed when He took your place in death so your sins are paid for completely if you will agree with God and take sides with Him against your sin and it's pleasures, repenting, and believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and receive Him, be forgiven by God and have a new life from Jesus Christ who will be your life, eternal life, if you will trust Him.
You are free to go your own way and do whatever you feel like doing if you think it's bad or not, until your death is finalized and your dying existence separated from God the way you are now is forever secured in Hell's fire.
Yes, when the world would be the same without God, there is no reason to think God rules over you. That's what Hell is for, for people who want a world without God. The people it was created for are devils. The people who can be saved from it are us.
If you want a world without God, God is going to let you have it. He loves you or He would let you have it now.
You are willfully keeping yourself separated from God. He's giving you air to breathe because He loves you. The world He will give you where you will not be able to believe He loves you is Hell, and He will give it to you if you will forever insist He does not love you.
You are doing it to yourself. You are making your world God-less...in your mind anyways. In Hell, the reality of your "no love from God" world will be manifest. Maybe you are too far gone and never will believe God loves you. Maybe I'm wasting my time with you....but then others who may listen and know God's love may be reading, so I guess it's not a waste of time. People are dying and going to Hell and need to be saved. If you don't want to be saved, you certainly won't be saved and your words will testify against you.
I am not keeping myself from God. He is keeping Himself from me and everybody else.
Making a God-less world God-less is not my fault.
It is true that I will never believe God loves me because it is obvious He doesn't exist.
There is no one reading anything you post that says anything about God's love. Every single one of your posts involves condemning people to hell. You don't think God loves anyone and you are the perfect atheist tool.
Ok, there's a claim that you should be able to back up. You seem confident in your position, so go ahead! Explain how this is true! What aspect of reality is he using to support his life and why are they irrelevant? You could make a legitimate point here! Go for it!
The point is that you are dying, reality's support for your life is inadequate or you would not die. You are now on life support which can only keep you alive a limited time as you are dying.
Why is this so hard to understand? I don't have to back up anything. Death proves the point. You are dying and need to be saved from dying or you will die. The only flaw you can find in these statements is to insist that you do not need to be saved, or cannot be saved, which leaves you nothing but death and I have to conclude that you love death. The only flaw you can find is by clinging to the lie that you don't need to be or cannot be saved from Hell.
Reality supports your death, not your life. This is reality 101. Welcome to the class.
Reality supports that all humans, so far, have died. We have no evidence of anyone not dying. Some believe that they live on in an afterlife. You definitely believe this. Why. How do you know that people who believe in God are saved from dying? How do you know that? That is what I am asking.
Your source material is full of contradictory statements. I have tried to use the bible, but when nothing seen in the bible happens today, I fail to put faith in it.
In order to use the Bible as proof, you need to explain why it is valid source material. When talking to someone who does not arbitrarily take the Bible to be absolutely correct, you need to first convince them of this.
they best not read my stuff because I will directly challenge them
You aren't, that's my point. You are making up a fake atheist argument and attacking that. No atheist thinks the way you think they do.
'm trying to get them to discuss their beliefs in an adult manner which will force them to move past their parrot brain cliché's of "I have no god-belief" and such stuff.
The patriot brain cliche is "I believe in God therefore God exists". There is no cliche by atheists.
Maybe you don't have the though process represented by this debate because you are purposely keeping your mind closed because you are afraid of the truth about yourself
Why don't you explain why Christians believe in flying horses and good shooting lightning bolts at people?
urself....the truth about you is the same about me.
Ha, if only you realized which of your statement was true about yourself.
.we both have hearts full of evil and deserve to burn in Hell,
Well, I agree that is true for Christians.
we both have turned against God and in our hearts murdered Him
So, even if I think like you I will have a screwed up view of God?
That's all atheism is
You are the weirdest atheist I have ever encountered.
, an attempt to murder God when in reality you are only killing yourself and propelling yourself into Hell.
You have it completely backwards. Atheism is attempting to show God exists, then failing, then not believing. Atheists become atheists because they find no evidence of God, not because they destroyed the evidence of God.
Atheism wants to show God exists the same as criminals want to show policemen exist....they do everything they can to stay away from what they don't want to be there with them....and that's why then end up in Hell.
You are really having a big reading comprehension problem. I didn't say that atheists want to show God exists, they try to show that God exists. But, strangely enough, you made a great analogy. Before criminals become criminals they look to see if cops are around. If the cops are around, they don't attempt the crime. So, atheists are like that. They are fully willing to believe in God, but He isn't around.
...they do everything they can to stay away
This debate proves you wrong. If you were right I would also avoid talking to people who believe in God.
It is difficult to get an atheist to say more than their trained-parrot cliché's of things like "I have no god belief". They have themselves trained this way to avoid facing the reality of their unending existence separated from God. Atheists set themselves up behind a wall that only God can penetrate while they do everything they can to avoid Him. Hell is their home, away from God, which is what they want. God is giving them what they want. Once in a while, one of them will come to their senses and realize they need to be saved and they believe on the resurrection of Jesus Christ and receive Him as their Savior. It doesn't happen often with atheists because they are generally determined it will never happen.
If you say it can't happen for you because you insist there is no God, it will never happen, you will never be saved from Hell where it will be forever impossible to know God loves you. I know God loves you, and I know where you are going insisting His love is meaningless for you.
It is interesting the you continue parroting your argument.
void facing the reality of their unending existence separated from God.
If the reality you speak of has absolutely no evidence, is the reality avoiding the atheist?
theists set themselves up behind a wall that only God can penetrate
We are in agreement here. Since nothing is penetrating the wall, God must not exist.
they want. Once in a while, one of them will come to their senses and realize they need to be saved
The sweet thing is that it works way more often in the other direction. :)
say it can't happen for you because you insist there is no God, it will
It is sad that you refuse to listen to your opposition as you attack them for not listening. Atheists believe that stiff can't happen, then decide because of that that God doesn't exist. Not the other way around like you think.
I know God loves you, and I know where you are going insisting His love is meaningless for you.
So, in other words, you believe God's love is meaningless. Why would we put any meaning in God's love if you think it has no meaning?
Atheists systematically avoid thinking. They develop a polished method of dodging the truth, denying the truth, avoiding admitting that they deserve to die and burn in Hell as sinners. They practice shutting out the truth as quickly as they can before it changes them. They don't want God to tell them what to do or what not to do, so they practice a methodology of denial, rejection of any attempt God makes to reason with them trying to get them to see they deserve to burn in Hell and that He loves them and does not want them to burn in Hell.
The Bible puts it many ways, one poetic way is by saying people will not come to the light because their deeds will be exposed by the light, their dirty dark secrets made plain to see, and they love darkness rather than light because their deeds are evil. Atheism is nothing but self-deception, the religion of fools who think they have obliterated God and justified their own lives by insisting they have no god belief or whatever other nonsensical wording they use to express their willful ignorance.
That's funny. I would consider someone who only uses the bible as their source as someone who doesn't think.
They develop a polished method of dodging the truth, denying the truth, avoiding admitting that they deserve to die and burn in Hell as sinners.
Something you think is true for every other animal. Who is really dodging the truth? The guy who wants there to be more to life than what is able to be seen or the guy who creates a world in their imagination that they get to go to?
They don't want God to tell them what to do or what not to do
No one listens to God, so they don't want to be the only ones.
deserve to burn in Hell
Nobody deserves to burn in hell for eternity.
e their deeds will be exposed by the light
This is obviously not true since Christians do all kinds of terrible acts.
evil. Atheism is nothing but self-deception
I am sorry, but the group that says acting good makes you good is a lot less deceptive than the group that says they are good just because.
The atheists insist they are losing everything in death, but they try to change it into something natural, normal, good. It's a loser's argument...it's dumb. Atheism is for losers because they believe they lose everything in death and they are talking their way into it as best as they possibly can. Most of them succeed, talking themselves into eternity separated from God, and they find themselves awake in the fire of Hell with no way out....and I suppose that even in the fire they will say God has no right to leave them there, the same as they say today by saying things like "I have no god-belief, and Hell is a myth". It's no different than saying "God has no right to leave me in Hell", but the atheist in his imagination must deny the reality of God and Hell so they insist they have no such belief. It's nothing but self-deception.
So you think you have the right to exist outside of Hell forever I guess, and you think you have proof of that right being yours, and you think everybody else has clearly show that there is no Hell.
I really don't know what makes you think all that stuff other than your own pride, believing you are better than God.
I think you are afraid to debate with me. That's why you decided to withdraw your argument....you know you can't handle the truth when it is directed in response to the very words of your own testimony for which you must answer to God.
The atheists insist they are losing everything in death, but they try to change it into something natural, normal, good.
The same thing you do for the other animals on this planet.
than saying "God has no right to leave me in Hell",
Atheists have no reason to discuss the rights of God. But, they will claim that God would have no reason. What reason would God really have for putting someone in hell for not believing as well as the person who murders someone else?
You are no different than the murderer because you are trying to mentally murder God by denying His right to exist. God created you, that's why He has the right to leave you in Hell after you have spent your life trying to murder Him.
He died in your place, He paid the price for your life, that's what gives Him the right to leave you in Hell....He took your death as Jesus Christ, and as Jesus Christ in His resurrection He will be your Judges since you reject Him as your Saviour. He has the right to leave you in Hell and He will if you will not concede to His right.
You need to reconsider what you are doing...before it's too late.
I don't know why you think this. Atheists don't care about God's rights. Atheists don't have a problem with a God existing. They have a problem with God existing with the way the planet works. It is like you pointing your finger at me claiming you have a gun, and when I claim you don't have a gun you say I am infringing on your second amendment rights.
God created you, that's why He has the right to leave you in Hell after you have spent your life trying to murder Him.
That's fine if He hates me, but you claim He doesn't.
u need to reconsider what you are doing...before it's too late.
God loves you but you are trying to paint Him as an evil character who hates you. God is pleading with you to believe on His Son in His resurrection to be forgiven with your sins paid for by His blood and be saved from Hell and you are saying God hates you if He lets you go to Hell even though you are rejecting what He did to save you from it. You despise the death He suffered for you, and He loves you so He will let you keep your own death to yourself without Him exactly like you are saying is the summation of your existence...and the only place He has for you when you insist on going out that way, loving your sin all the way to death, is Hell. You can't get out by saying it's not real, or not true. You are trying to deny God from your life, and all you are doing in reality is depriving yourself of life by your sin. Enjoy while you can if that's the way you want to go out thinking you are proving God is not there and Hell is not real.
Just forget that I tried to warn you, ok? Just keep on doing whatever you feel like doing, and enjoy it as long as you can, ok? I hope you have a great time with it.
If one is sitting all alone, suspended in darkness, they wouldn't be conscious of anything else. This is how I imagine God, before the creation story. An unconscious being or entity (a singlarity). When God "created" the holy spirit God became conscious.
Genesis 1:1-2, This is an introduction of what they'll be writing about next. this took millions of years. Space was full of minerals & gases. The water they discribe is the moving space, & it's rotation.
1:3-4, God created consciousness, & saw it was good. Or, created our sun, but no other stars, & began earth's rotation.
1:6-8, must start after the minerals & gasses created a large rock covered in ice, that will become earth. The firmament created a covering of liquid water, by "air pressure" melting the ice. With evaporation the water was separated into clouds & our atmosphere was born.
1:9-10, while the waters evaporated, land began to show.
1:11-13, our sun must have made the seed grow.
1:14, God gathers the light, separating it from darkness. Stars were born, & some died creating black holes, heaven. open minded Christianity, also known as spiritualism, doesn't believe "God works in 'mysterious' ways". That's reserved for the closed minded & the religious, that believe their way, their translation, & their church is the only, way, translation, or church, that has it right. Spirituality, comes with open eyes, minds, & hearts, so there is no mystery, we're open to all explanations, & possibilities.
you are way off topic for this debate. If you want to discuss your existence-out-of-nothingness god of evolutionary forces, you need to make your own discussion or debate.
This discussion is about the necessity and veracity of Hell. Aparently, your belief system avoids discussing your continuation of existence with God in heaven or without Him in Hell. If you cannot discuss these things, please refrain from posting things like you have done here which are unrelated to the topic.
Relate your discussion to the topic, tie it in somehow please
I have asked a few others to do the same when they posted things going off on tangents which are uncalled for and not part of the discussion here. I'm trying to draw you in to reply directly to the topic of the debate or one side or the other. If you won't focus on the topic, I'll have to ban you to be fair to others I have asked the same of.
Basically, this argument is saying that you believe you are better than God because you have the right to rule over Him and make Him into what you want Him to be, rather than Him having the right to rule against you and leave you in Hell.
Your imagination is flawed in that God was never alone being God, He is love and always was the object and originator of His love. He is God the Father, God the Son, God the Holy Spirit, three persons in one God. He was never "suspended in darkness", there is no darkness in Him. He was never conscious of nothing but darkness, he was never "a singularity". You are trying to make yourself into something better and smarter and stronger than God, by changing Him into something that can be contained in your own imagination.
God is not going to allow you to replace Him with yourself, or with His Creation, or with anybody or anything else. You are following a false light, the devil, Satan, who disguises himself as an angel of light. You are loving being deceived, and the loving God is letting you have what you want even though he knows it's going to take you to Hell if you won't repent and believe on the Lord Jesus Christ.
Ok, so you imagine God is not God the Creator of all, the all-knowing all-powerful, and all-present Living God who made you in Him image. You believe you are better than God, and you can make God into something that you can wrap your mind around so you are bigger than Him. I guess you just have to enjoy being suspended in darkness as long as you can keep yourself out of the fire of Hell.
Ok, go ahead and prove it. How long will it be before you have the proof? Will you be able to show me the evidence? If you can bring back nothingness from death, then you have proof for everybody that Hell is not there and nothingness is reality and not only in your mind.
Why are you banning debators who write good debates and get points from other debators?? I find this disturbing.. This shows that you cannot stand up for yourself and hence you ban them! Coward.. I know you are gonna ban me now so you mine as well do it.
Um, excuse me Mr. Clown, you might want to read some of what I thought was pretty good back and forth here with Piratedog and others. Even Cartman is bordering on entering into intelligent discussion on the topic.
It also might interest you that it's me giving most points to the debators here. I think points are kinda silly, you can have all of mine...in fact, I'm giving you one now.
If you want to discuss the topic, why don't you do it instead of sit there whining and begging me to ban you for doing nothing but whining? Quit being disturbed. God wants you to be whole and have peace from Him which passes understanding. God is offering you a peace agreement between you and Him now if you will quit whining and start listening to Him. He's trying to get you saved from Hell.
The people I banned were mostly just whining and insulting exactly like you are doing here. Pirateelfdog is the only one I recall who has actually put up something resembling adult conversation for debating. He made a good example here, showing you up as the coward in this topic.
Why don't you argue the topic with me so I can try to convince you that you deserve to burn in Hell the same as me and you can be forgiven by God and saved from it the same as me? You are the coward. Put up your argument in the debate or shut up your whining please.
After this, I certainly will ban you if that's all you want and your twisted mind makes you think you scored a point by getting me to ban you....put up or shut up, post an argument in the debate or quit your crybaby whining
I am already a Christian, you idiot.. God is probably laughing at you right now.
quit whining
Who said I was whining?? I am trying to protect the other rights of the debators which you just merrily banned!
I recall who has actually put up something resembling adult
This debate site is not only for the debators who know how to debate. It is for everyone to add in their opinion no matter how they feel or who they are. You are just getting affected by other debator's comments. Come on! Stand up and be a Man!
twisted mind
Just now, you quoted me God, now I will quote you back. Don't look at the splinter in your friend's eye when you have a plank sticking out of yours.
I don't believe you are a Christian at all. Maybe a Catholic, but that's Mary worship idolatry which is not Christian....it's a religion which pretends to be Christian but in reality is a religion worshipping dead idols.
This is the kind of foulness that makes taking you seriously impossible. Who cares what you believe? He could very well be pimp-slapping you in the face with the truth and you just go... Oh, I don't believe you.
Maybe a Catholic, but that's Mary worship idolatry which is not Christian....it's a religion which pretends to be Christian but in reality is a religion worshipping dead idols.
Right, it's a religion... just like yours... And you feel obligated to tell us how wrong it is... Most of us will tell you what we think of yours... It'll just fall on deaf ears... Just like anyone so hopelessly brainwashed by their religion that they cannot see 2 inches in front of their face.
You are too nasty for me. You and your pimp-slapping would be expelled immediately from or knocked out cold and flat on the floor if you were here in my house. Nobody talks like that in my house, you are banned from this debate.
What's the point of discussing the topic? You're banning everyone that doesn't agree with you. There is no point in creating a topic on a debate site if you can't deal with people disagreeing. Though he did eventually respond, I wouldn't have seen a lack of response as cowardice, but more a desire to not waste time.
Some of the people here are not banned, you might want to take some notes before you talk stupid. I will ban you if you'r not going to discuss the topic and all you are going to do is insult me. Is that hard for your brain to grasp?
Ok, go ahead and prove it. How long will it be before you have the proof? Will you be able to show me the evidence? If you can bring back nothingness from death, then you have proof for everybody that Hell is not there and nothingness is reality and not only in your mind.