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I want proof of Hell
Why in the world would anybody demand proof of the reality of Hell? That's tempting God to give it to you. Don't be a fool. Repent and believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved.
Yeah I won't believe in Hell till I'm having a hot beer with ol' Lucifer wile the flames lick at my feet and the demons dance and laugh.
Just like I won't believe in Heaven till I am walking through the Pearly Gates and Pete greets me and goes, "Hey Slappy, we thought you'd never make it!"
I won't believe in god till he roars down from Heaven and stands before me. And answers all the questions I would have for him. Like why have you allowed so much violence and suffering for your supposed children whom you love? And, how can the Flood story be true when we have documented proof of other flood stories of other religions that PRE-DATED the Torah?
And, why so many beetles? LOL...and old Biologist joke. Stemming form the fact there are millions of sub-species of beetles for which there is absolutely no reason a Creator would have to create them in a perfect environment. I think it was JBS Haldane who first asked this, or rather stated it when somebody asked him what he thought of the idea of a god. (He was an atheist Biologist like me.)
Haldane quipped, "He must have been inordinately fond of beetles."
I unbanned you here....I think I banned you here at the same time I banned you from another debate and you surprised me by responding well to the action. A lot of people here could learn a lot from you. Thanks.
God did not have to create beetles or birds or people, but He did. He is to be thanked and honored for giving life, not doubted and criticized. And yes, though Haldane was being sarcastic toward God, you can accurately say his fondness for ever single individual creature is inordinate because our view of God's affections naturally places less value on the creatures than their Creator, so to us His affections may well seem inordinate. What is really inordinate is our lace of affection for God's creatures.
As for your implication that God allows violence and suffering for His children, I suppose there is some truth in that as well. God allows us time, and all suffering is the consequences of sin, our own or that inherited from our parents, or the sins of others, and sometimes it becomes violent with us as it is violently against God.
I answered your point about other flood stories of other religions. Flood stories are found in virtually every culture, religion, and country, and there is a very simple reason for this...they all descended from the sons of Noah. The story changed as people developed different religions, but it is still basically the same, a global deluge.
All of your questions can be answered if you will allow a hole in that brick wall you have set in your mind hiding behind, trying to keep God from knowing you. Until you are his child, he does not deal with you as one of His children, but He is still good to you as He makes His sun to shine and rain to fall on the just and the unjust alike. You are born of Earthly parents, your spirit is like theirs, sinful, it's in our genes. To be one of God's children you have to be born of His Spirit and He cannot give you this new birth if you will not 1) come into agreement with Him as to His right to ruin and destroy you forever for being a sinner 2) believe He took on human form to pay your price in dying so you can be forgiven 3) call on God the Father, ask Him in the name of God the Son , to forgive you of your sin and receive Jesus as your Savior. You must be born again or you cannot see the kingdom of Heaven.
God grieves when He sees a sparrow die, I suppose he grieves when a beetle dies. That is because of His love. Of course atheists think God's love is a joke and inordinate because they believe they cannot be loved by God....so who really can love an atheist?
Atheists hate God and love death. They are fools, thinking they have made God void and thinking they cannot end up in Hell. They have no way out of reality, they are stuck with themselves forever hating God in the fire of Hell if they will not repent and believe on the Lord Jesus Christ who paid their price in death to buy them back from what their sin has earned them...eternal death in Hell.
I'm sorry if the truth bothers you, but I can't tell you an atheist is good or ok. If you're not saved from your sins, your sins will take you where sin will remain forever in the fire of Hell. That's the way it is, you don't have to believe it even if you find you can't get out of the fire after your time here has ended.
I see you are arguing on the side of "I'll have to be in the fire" as the only way you will accept proof of Hell. At least you are being honest in that.
Fair point, instead of making it sound like I am a spokesman, I will speak only for myself. I do not reject god any more than I reject unicorns and fairies. I cannot reject something that does not exist. Clearly atheism needs to be explained because if you believe we are rejecting your god, you are showing you don't truly understand it.
Again, why do you think it's hard to understand that you believe there is no God? Any three year old can say "there is no God" and understand atheism. It's pretty much void of intelligence.
And furthermore, the reason you cannot say you believe there is no God is because by spelling His name correctly as a proper noun being the name of a person, you would be acknowledging He is the One who created all things which you might refer to as "gods". You use the word "god" as a straw man, an absurdity which is not God and then you claim the absurdity you have devised is not God. Duhhhhh. I can agree with you that a god is not God.
You are not rejecting my god, I don't have a god. You are rejecting God, He is God over you if you acknowledge Him or not. He died for you to save you from Hell, His name is the Lord God Almighty Jesus Christ, and you will face Him one day as your Judge with His blood trampled under your feet if you will not receive Him as your Savior so your sins can be covered by His sinless, innocent life's blood which He gave to pay for them.
You are not speaking for yourself, you are speaking against yourself, you are opposing yourself. That is what atheism is all about, opposing your own life in agreement with death. You hope to escape justice in death, you hope to get out of reality in death, you love death and you hate God so in your heart you have murdered God and you believe He is gone so you can believe you will be gone in death. You're gone now, and fighting against your own life.
God wants you to have eternal life. You are fighting in favor of eternal death, and doing all you can to block Hell and God out of your thinking, doing all you can to believe death ends suffering and there is no Hell. You're gambling against your own life for the sake of momentary pleasures of pride going against God and His holy law.
You are not banned here...you will probably get yourself banned, but for now it's open to you.
Haldane is not very bright. An artist may produce works of art all his life simply because of the pleasure in doing it. So God created many beetles? You don't like beetles? Too bad, God made lots of beetles and He likes what He made.
I'd like to see Haldane make a beetle. You evolutionary biologists can't even make one living cell from scratch. God make more kinds of single celled animals than He made beetles. God made monkeys and man and you try to turn monkeys into your ancestors. I think God is smarter than Haldane and your idol, Dawkins..in comparison to God, your idols are fools and why in the world would anybody want to be like them? It seems an intelligent person would want to be like God who created beetles. If you claim God has faults and you don't want to be like Him because of His faults, the truth is that you are projecting your own guilt for your own wrongs and faults onto God.
So you can't even read more than one sentence, but if I don't feel like watching one of you 30 minute videos, I'm lazy? If you post mindless posts in someone else's debate its constructive, but if I make an argument that is contrary to your beliefs, I'm a troll or a punk?
Fair enough. Okay, I do want proof of hell in order to believe it. Could you try presenting some evidence and actually engage in a debate before you ban me this time? Really, I'm open minded.
The problem with you is that you are a sinner condemned to die and you will wake up in Hell if you won't repent and believe on the Lord Jesus Christ to be saved from it. You acted civil with me, deceitfully, for a few minutes and ever since you admitted it, it seems all you want to do is tear me to pieces for telling you the truth. We both deserve to die and burn in Hell, I'm forgiven and you think your life is justified by your own existence so you are not forgiven by God. I forgive you, but that won't get you out of your sin. You need God's forgiveness. Yep, I forgive you but as long as I can ban you, I'll ban you until I see some kind of change in your attitude and that is not likely since I don't read your posts anymore except maybe by accident not knowing it was you.
You are going to get proof that Hell is real. You can wait until the proof is forced on you.......how long will you wait for proof? God only knows, but you will get proof.
So God knows how long these people will have until they go to Hell? So he already knows who is going to hell and who isn't? That means that free will doesn't exist. without free will, this is all one big show with a predetermined ending. The people going to hell never stood a chance because they were predestined to burn. God created people just to send off to an eternity of torture.
The fact that God knows the future does not excuse you from responsibility in your choices. If you want to believe you have the right as a sinner to exist outside of Hell and do not need God's mercy, you are free to believe that and do whatever you feel like doing as long as you can do it. God gives you that freedom and will not force to to change your mind about it. He created you to be free, yet you want to serve your sin by your own choice rather than God who gives freedom. It is you who is the sadist against your own life, trying to blame God for your existence so you feel excused to destroy yourself thinking it's God's fault you are here so He does not have the right to punish you. You're asking for it and trying to blame God for giving it to you. How stupid can you be?
nobody is predestined to Hell, idiot, they choose it by defying God and He has no place for them in Heaven. Every single person can be saved from Hell, but most will not side with God against themselves to be in agreement with Him so that He can show them mercy. They insist they do not need His mercy so they won't have it, and they'll burn in Hell by their own choice of wanting a reality in which God is mute.
You are one of the people going to Hell and trying to blame God for it. Blaming God won't get you off the hook.
very single person can be saved from Hell, but most will not side with God against themselves to be in agreement with Him so that He can show them mercy.
Yeah fucking tit wank idiots!! Be a good fucking Christian like SaintNow and stop yourself burning like fucking sausages you cunts!!! God bless.
I'm banning you, I simply don't want to bother with this stupid line of reasoning you are parroting. I've heard it a hundred times from idiots like you, thinking you are smart. You are asking for Hell, and you are going to get it, and blaming God won't get you out of it. People who make this stupid kind of argument just go around and around and around with it, in reality wanting death hoping it gets them out of accountability....a self defeating idiocy in which the ugly sounding fool demands his own destruction and then wakes up in Hell. I feel sorry for you, and it would be stupid for me to waste time trying to talk you out of the idiocy you love like some kind of blood sucking worm, sucking your own blood.
I check responses to my arguments and I see the faces of five fools who think they have the right to exist outside of Hell and I"m leaving them in the dust, I tried to tell them how they can be saved but they think they are better than God........idiots.
It looks to me like you are one of the people God knows will be in Hell, but I hope I'm wrong about that and I hope you get saved by the Savior, Jesus Christ, but I doubt that you will. I'm not God so I don't know, but it sure looks to me like you will be stuck in Hell frying like an eternal sausage remembering what stupid perverted things you said as you curse God in the fire.
God will save you, but you won't be saved, will you? You don't want to be saved, do you? You don't want God to rule over you, do you? You won't trust your Creator, will you? You won't believe Jesus is God who paid your price to buy you back from what your sins have sold you into which is Hell...you won't believe, will you? You will love your sin more then life and pretend to be smarter, stronger, better than God, won't you?
You are going to get proof. You want proof, God will give it to you and if you wake up in the fire not believing the proof, you will be more of fool than you already are.
You're trying to give me a taste of it now. All you can do is send me to Heaven, even if you burn me at the stake. Nobody comes back from Hell. You won't be coming back, and it sounds like you won't be saved from going there. Nobody comes back. Sorry.
Jesus is the way. He has a place in Heaven prepared for me. He is my Savior, He is the only Savior and without Him you remain on death row in condemnation....and guess what's waiting at the end of the corridor for you..
It's amazing to me how those who live in a world of hearsay and myth continually ask those who believe differently for "proof".
There is not ONE iota of "proof" to their mythological gods, heavens and hells, yet they insist that WE prove ourselves.
I'll be a good guy. If I go there I'll try my DAMNDEST to come back and give you a taste of it ... okay?? It shouldn't be too hard to get ol' Lucie to agree to make life miserable for one o' them who are against him.
Nah, I couldn't do that. I believe anyone should be allowed to believe what they believe .... until "proven" wrong ... unlike some I could name.
The problem with you is that you are a sinner condemned to die and you will wake up in Hell if you won't repent and believe on the Lord Jesus Christ to be saved from it. You acted civil with me, deceitfully, for a few minutes and ever since you admitted it, it seems all you want to do is tear me to pieces for telling you the truth. We both deserve to die and burn in Hell, I'm forgiven and you think your life is justified by your own existence so you are not forgiven by God. I forgive you, but that won't get you out of your sin. You need God's forgiveness. Yep, I forgive you but as long as I can ban you, I'll ban you until I see some kind of change in your attitude and that is not likely since I don't read your posts anymore except maybe by accident not knowing it was you.
I have worked it out. You are certainly not a Christian but what religion are you? You dont follow the teachings of the Bible, but yet have knowledge of it, you act like youre the Messiah and you seem to be turned on by the idea of people sizzling like sausages. You are a Satanist arent you?
Any one who says that their is no hell/ punishment in the afterlife, is say basically this: "In the real world I can do what I want in society as long as I follow rules, but it is okay to bend them if you don't get caught, because after all their is no hell and no punishment for what wrongdoings I have done in the past." I prefer the idea that there is justice in the world than the idea that after you the die you are never get the judgement that makes God just and good.
Amen. That's what it's all about, JUSTICE, and God's offer of mercy in love through His Son who He gave to execute our punishment on Himself so we can be set free of execution of justice which we deserve and which is the fire of Hell, the only answer God has for His creatures who will not cease their animosity against His order.
That's not what they are saying at all. Just because someone does not believe in the theological concepts of Heaven and Hell, doesn't mean they lack a sense of ethics.
First I'll ban you.....ok, banned....now maybe I'll read and maybe I'll respond. I know what to expect from you, never anything contributing to constructive conversation with me, always pot-headed provocative garbage.
Ok, since for a change you actually appear to be trying to make a constructive discussion, I'll un-ban you.
The first time you use profanity or insult me, you are banned. I will show you respect if you show me respect. If I tire of the conversation and it is repetitive, I may ban you to end the discussion but as long as you keep decent manners with me, I will post only one final reply at the end with appreciation for your time.
A sense of ethics is not objective. Everybody has a sense of ethics, some feel it is ethical to kill or rape to get what they want from their victims. Ethics are subjective morality determined by the individual, and why should your ethics trump theirs if they want to take your life or possessions or abuse your body?
You opened the possibility for a decent discussion of ethics or morality, I accept the offer and await your response.
Not sure why you think I would want to try to talk to you. You've proven far too many times that you are either unwilling or incapable of holding a legitimate conversation.
I gave you the opportunity here. Put up or shut up please. I'll be more than happy to discuss the sense of ethics you referred to.
If this is all you have to say: "Not sure why you think I would want to try to talk to you. You've proven far too many times that you are either unwilling or incapable of holding a legitimate conversation.", then you are only proving it's your attitude and not mine which prevents us from discussing issues.
Now put up or resort to your usual tactics of insulting and trying to denigrate my personality and character so I can either be done with this and ban you or we can have a discussion. It's up to you.
Fine, I'll bite. You say that ethics are subjective, but ethics are merely a set of morals (according to the definition), which means that you therefore think morality is subjective, which means you agree with me.
What are morals? Who determines what is moral? If that determination is made for yourself by yourself, then the morals are subjective to your own thoughts and feelings which are changeable, so you live by ethics and not by morals. If you say something I do is immoral or unethical, then you are appealing to a morality which is objective and ethics then would be subjective to morality. No?
Good for you, biting was the wise thing to do here since you stuck your foot in your mouth so many times by insulting me saying " Not sure why you think I would want to try to talk to you. You've proven far too many times that you are either unwilling or incapable of holding a legitimate conversation."
I expect this stuff to end after this discussion. If it does not, I'm going to copy and paste the opening back and forth posts in one post to show who has the attitude problem.......if you continue to show bad attitude toward me.
It would have been fair and just for me to ban you after this insulting comment, but then you would never stop. I could have just banned you and showed how I invited you to discuss and you declined and insulted. That was enough to show who has the attitude problem. I'm trying to be friendly with you and not compromise from what i know is the truth. The wounds of a friend are faithful, sometimes the best things a friend can do for his friend is to punch his friend in the mouth and I can give you a real life true story to clearly illustrate that fact.
Looks to me like you are the one too insecure to discuss a topic with a person who disagrees with you. Last chance, put up some constructive comments for discussion as I replied to your last attempt to discuss ethics and morality, or shut up and leave in admission of having an attitude problem which causes you to be too emotionally insecure to discuss a philosophical issue with me...........or I will just ban you and as I said, assemble the conversation on ethics in one post showing I invited you to discuss, showing I responded intelligently and respectfully to your comments on ethics and morals, and showing you have an attitude problem.
it's egg on your face if you get yourself banned here. I'm bending over three times backwards trying to get you to discuss ethics and morality after you posted this opening comment:
...." Just because someone does not believe in the theological concepts of Heaven and Hell, doesn't mean they lack a sense of ethics."
And for the record, I will use this little exchange to show your character if you continue to insult me all over the site as you have by saying: "Not sure why you think I would want to try to talk to you. You've proven far too many times that you are either unwilling or incapable of holding a legitimate conversation."
You opened the possibility of a decent discussion regarding a sense of ethics held by individuals, I responded constructively to your comments on the topic, now put up or shut up.
You commented three times, and only the smallest one had anything to do with the topic you started. The rest were focused on your little power fantasies and hypocritical insults.
But feel free, "tell the world" so to speak. See how many people will listen to you of all people on this site.
I have the power to ban you and that is not a fantasy. If all you are going to do is insult me and not discuss the topic which you in good manners opened, then shut up and leave and I won't have to ban you.
are you going to continue the discussion of ethics and morality or not?
Put up or shut up, and I will do exactly as I have stated.
Reply to my last post in the conversation:
What are morals? Who determines what is moral? If that determination is made for yourself by yourself, then the morals are subjective to your own thoughts and feelings which are changeable, so you live by ethics and not by morals. If you say something I do is immoral or unethical, then you are appealing to a morality which is objective and ethics then would be subjective to morality. No?
Reply or shut up and leave so I don't have to ban you. Thank you.
That's not what they are saying at all. Just because someone does not believe in the theological concepts of Heaven and Hell, doesn't mean they lack a sense of ethics.
Saintnow
A sense of ethics is not objective. Everybody has a sense of ethics, some feel it is ethical to kill or rape to get what they want from their victims. Ethics are subjective morality determined by the individual, and why should your ethics trump theirs if they want to take your life or possessions or abuse your body?
You opened the possibility for a decent discussion of ethics or morality, I accept the offer and await your response.
IAmSparticus
Fine, I'll bite. You say that ethics are subjective, but ethics are merely a set of morals (according to the definition), which means that you therefore think morality is subjective, which means you agree with me.
Odd.
Saintnow
What are morals? Who determines what is moral? If that determination is made for yourself by yourself, then the morals are subjective to your own thoughts and feelings which are changeable, so you live by ethics and not by morals. If you say something I do is immoral or unethical, then you are appealing to a morality which is objective and ethics then would be subjective to morality. No?
Please respond to discuss your views with me on this subject or cease posting in this debate.
Apparently, IAmSparticus sees where this conversation is going and has chickened out of the discussion.
That's not what they are saying at all. Just because someone does not believe in the theological concepts of Heaven and Hell, doesn't mean they lack a sense of ethics.
Saintnow
A sense of ethics is not objective. Everybody has a sense of ethics, some feel it is ethical to kill or rape to get what they want from their victims. Ethics are subjective morality determined by the individual, and why should your ethics trump theirs if they want to take your life or possessions or abuse your body?
You opened the possibility for a decent discussion of ethics or morality, I accept the offer and await your response.
IAmSparticus
Fine, I'll bite. You say that ethics are subjective, but ethics are merely a set of morals (according to the definition), which means that you therefore think morality is subjective, which means you agree with me.
Odd.
Saintnow
What are morals? Who determines what is moral? If that determination is made for yourself by yourself, then the morals are subjective to your own thoughts and feelings which are changeable, so you live by ethics and not by morals. If you say something I do is immoral or unethical, then you are appealing to a morality which is objective and ethics then would be subjective to morality. No?
Please respond to discuss your views with me on this subject or cease posting in this debate.
Apparently, IAmSparticus sees where this conversation is going and has chickened out of the discussion.
Scientists that understand math disagree with creation evolution theories. Adaptatations are adjustments but we never saw a new unrelated animal come out of another.
So to make adaptation what it is not, is just covering bs with lies. The new spin everytime they have to redefine words to make them fit.
Evolution is a nothing god, that exists in pseudo-scientists imaginations .
The Bible has proven itself. And all creation tells of Him..
At least my sky God has evidence I can see right in front of my eyes, and has proven Himself by showing "coincidences" at ridiculously impossible odds.
So God shows physically in front of our eyes evidence we can see, and affirms it by showing its at odds that require Him as Creator, Authorship, and Savior... whereas evolution holds impossible odds in their hands with no proof or affirmation of its claim.
So I can only believe what I see sir! And evolution shows no proof at all,:just a hypothetical story authenticated by nothing more than creative fiction at far fetched impossible odds!
But I have a God who knows all things you seek to know, He made them. And He knows exactly how it was done.
And the evidence is piled high to Heaven, and He reveals more everyday.
I love those tidbits that show Him in strange ways, eyewitness to His own creation.
Example 1 of 1000's,
Jesus describes accurately both "Hell" and the "Lake of Fire." These are two different places, in two different locations.
This short video shows these two places exactly as Jesus described them. Jesus knows science inside and out!
Cool. So you're like Spawn, Daredevil, Hellboy or Ghost Rider?
My mom is in Kansas and I still have a little Kansas in me. That makes me have a little bit of Mary Ann from Gilligan's Island in me. You're lucky I guess.
Sin reigns over you. Hell reigns over sinners, God reigns over all. Your sin is taking you to Hell, and you are loving it for momentary pleasures. Enjoy while you can. You'll have to excuse me for banning you any time I see you in my debates or discussions as it's highly unlikely you will say anything constructive or respond constructively if I answer your post.
That's not escaping Hell, it's temporarily avoiding it. He needs a permanent solution from God and that solution is the good news of Jesus Christ........but he won't have it if he won't receive the Savior and neither will you.
I'm voting in support only so God personally has to go confront his mother who appears to be the root of his problem. Boy, won't she be surprised when God shows up at her door with a couple of angel thugs and says they need to have a little talk.
I check responses to my arguments and I see the faces of five fools who think they have the right to exist outside of Hell and I"m leaving them in the dust, I tried to tell them how they can be saved but they think they are better than God........idiots.
The problem with SaintNow is that he believes he IS god. When people disagree with him, he says they are going against god. The irony is that he ends up calling all of his dissenters blasphemers for disagreeing with him, which is perhaps the greatest blaspheme.
He even calls god and Jesus unjust. He says that we all deserve justice (by which he means hell) but that Jesus helps us escape justice and go to heaven. He holds justice and hell to be synonymous and claims to be for justice (hell) all while claiming we can escape justice. Any who disagree with him, by disagreeing with his hell worship, is disagreeing with a self-made god.
Aborted babies are the only ones who he believes are deserving of heaven. While aborting them makes you no worse than anyone else (since we all deserve hell), he is against abortion. In a world where SaintNow is god, the only way to guarantee the passage of another into heaven is abortion.
Of course there is no proof of his repulsive worldview. There isn't even a shred of evidence. That's because a worldview as self-deifying, self-righteous, and seething with hatred as his can only be the product of illness and/or delusion.
So no thanks, I believe. I believe in a right-side up world where God and Justice are on the same side. Where being a dead baby isn't the only way to be a good person before Justice. Where disagreeing with SaintNow indicates sanity and usually civility.
The problem with you is that you are a sinner condemned to die and you will wake up in Hell if you won't repent and believe on the Lord Jesus Christ to be saved from it. You acted civil with me, deceitfully, for a few minutes and ever since you admitted it, it seems all you want to do is tear me to pieces for telling you the truth. We both deserve to die and burn in Hell, I'm forgiven and you think your life is justified by your own existence so you are not forgiven by God. I forgive you, but that won't get you out of your sin. You need God's forgiveness. Yep, I forgive you but as long as I can ban you, I'll ban you until I see some kind of change in your attitude and that is not likely since I don't read your posts anymore except maybe by accident not knowing it was you.
Jesus won't help you escape justice, moron, He's not your partner in crime. He took your place in condemnation of death so you can be set free by Him in His resurrection. Only God can give you eternal life, Jesus is God who took on the form of a man to take man's place in death so man can be pardoned by Him through faith in His sinless innocent blood which He paid on behalf of all who will trust in Him. If you honestly, admitting your worthiness of punishment, seek God's mercy through Jesus Christ, you will find it and know Jesus is God who loves you so much He died for you even though you were His enemy.
Wow, you really went off here, didn't you? What's so repulsive about the fact that God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life? Is it repulsive to you knowing all can be saved but you will not believe so you will not be saved? Is that what it is? You find it repulsive that you will not be saved? So you shoot yourself in the foot and blame me?
People who believe they are "god"("god" being a thing which is not God the Creator who died for us to be our Savior) are generally Hinduistic, thinking they are a spark of the divine, god material, part of the divine force of reality. I do not believe I am god. That's a stupid thing to say. Anybody who believes they are god or a piece or part of god is insane.
Jesus Christ is God, I am a sinner saved by grace through faith named Saintnow and I have a new name reserved for me in Heaven which I will not know until I get there.
Your problem is that you are trying to justify yourself............and obviously you have very low reading and comprehension skills as your diatribe against me is based on nothing I have said while you pretend you got your ideas from reading my posts. I think you are smoking too much weed and watching too much TV
