If Jesus didn't sacrifice himself, what would have come of the world?
There's a dozen Jesus debates going around, but I'm going to get this down to the nitty gritty.
If Jesus didn't sacrifice himself (if he really actually did sacrifice himself and wasn't forced), what would have happened thereafter?
I want you to prove that his dying on the cross somehow really was some predicated, life saving, world altering act. And that if it all had happened any other way, the world would be a worst place.
I realize this is heavily a "what if" scenario, but it can't be that hard for those of you that worship him and know the history of the whole thing.
Oh, and I know people are going to pull out their bibles to support themselves for this, but try not to. Let's do this historically and hypothetically.
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The heyzeus everyone thinks died on the cross may never have even existed. There is tons of written history from that time period, mountains of evidence of all sorts about things going on at the time, yet not a word about heyzeus. Nothing about Jesus was written until around 500AD. Why don't any of the writings from his time period say anything about Jesus? 1. every christian holiday coincides with pagan holidays, which was the dominant religion at the time people started talking about Jesus. 2. The Egyption god Sirus (I think that was his name) preceded Jesus by thousands of years, he too was divinely concieved from a virgin, his earthly father was a carpenter, he performed miracles for the people, and was crucified... plagerism anyone? 3. Why would an all powerful all loving god require a blood sacrifice to forgive people? I forgive people all the time, and no one has to die. Seems kind of anal to me. So here's what would have happened had Jesus not been crucified... Exactly what is happpening. That's because he probably never was, and if he hadn't, someone would have just made it up anyway. Now if you're asking what if there was no Christian Religion, probably all the people who are Christian would find some other father in the sky to follow, allah, yehweh, buddah, the flying spaghetti monster, whatever, and us lonely 16 percent of the world population that realize how crazy the whole thing is, would be trying to explain to you people in vain just how silly whatever other religion you would be following is. Side: he didn't and the same
"3. Why would an all powerful all loving god require a blood sacrifice to forgive people? I forgive people all the time, and no one has to die. Seems kind of anal to me." The whole point of Jesus was to save the Jewish people. Of course, this ended in Christians, who believe in Christ, and Jews, who do not. Not everybody believed he was the messiah, of course. But he was crucified because the Jewish people believed in a sacrifice for their sins. Typically, this was a lamb, but it had to be a clean lamb (no imperfections- they were a little anal lol). Jesus was sacrificed because he was the perfect sacrifice for this. He was clean and he was an equal sacrifice (human). Side: he didn't and the same
still then, why? You now have an all powerful and all good god, pandering to the childish, evil, and counter productive whims of man. Wouldn't it have been more productive, and especially timely if Jesus were indeed the son of god, to take that opportunity to have taught them that human sacrifice is not necessary? You're kinda trying to change the basis of the arguement there MK, The arguement being put forth is that Jesus death was necessary for forgiveness. Now you can start your own religion if you like, where Jeusus is the son of god, but his death was not necessary for fogiveness. But presently that is not any Christian faith, and the Jews and Muslims who believe he existed, do not believe he was the son of god or our salvation. I mean really, I think it's unfair of you to make up an entirely new religion, simply to refute my arguement. Side: he didn't and the same
You asked a question. I will answer that question. “The heyzeus everyone thinks died on the cross may never have even existed. There is tons of written history from that time period, mountains of evidence of all sorts about things going on at the time, yet not a word about heyzeus. Nothing about Jesus was written until around 500AD. Why don't any of the writings from his time period say anything about Jesus?” Answer: The name of the man who was murdered at the request of the Jews, also their messiah, is not Jesus. (Study the history of the question for yourself if you care to know the name of the person whom Christians call Jesus. Obviously, to me, you have not studied the history of the question; most self-professing Christians have not either.) In reply to the remainder of your post, if you know not the name of the man who was sent to be the savior of the Jew, it is impossible to know who you are speaking of, let alone whether or not self-professing Christians know whom it is they call “Lord”. Side: No Heaven
A lot of people were crucified at that time lawnman. I don't believe you have any insider info all of Christianity does not... My entire childhood of catholic school, my lame converstions with the baptist preacher whose daughter I dated all through high school, and my 18 credits of religious studies... and not a hint that "oh wait, there is evidence! we've just been calling him the wrong name this whole time!" Wow, that is truly amazing... Oh wait! You mean this! link Anyway, again, historical text. "Salvation" was a common name. Every Jew and their mother wanted their son to be the salvation. There is no historical connection between the stories of heyzeus, and some dude named Yahweh who was crucified. Again, none of that stuff was written about some dude named Yahweh-later-Jesus, until 500 years after the fact. So regradless of the name, my points, all of the them, remain pretty much the most valid things in this debate. Basically you're arguing semantics, what name I, or anyone calls that person from the bible, has 0 bearing on whether that person existed. I'm sure undeniable proof of Jesus's existance has not been thwarted all these millenia for lack of an Aramic (then Hebrew) translator. And try not to sound so condescending, at least not to me. It's annoying. Side: he didn't and the same
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Hi LM, I don't really think it matters who we're talking about...what matters is that He existed by one name or another. The facts are that no one can prove anything having to do with His sacrifice on Calvary that day. No matter if it was i year or 500 years before it was written. I certainly do not pretend to know any other name but Jesus Christ. If it was not He then who was it? And why are you privy to that while hundreds of thousands have studied it through the years and use the same names? I truly cannot know what would have happened to the world if His was a sacrifice at all, a self-sacrifice or a sacrifice God decided should be made to save the multitudes. The point is that it did, for all intents and purposes, do that when Moses came from Sinai to present the plates engraved with the Ten Commandments. It would seem as though 'they' had their proof and were mostly satisfied. I cannot give anyone absolute truth on this but my faith tells me this is true and I wish it to be so. Side: I cannot say
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if jesus hadn't sacrificed his life........people would be unaware of what life is,what patience is and what would it be to give away ur life for someone else......,we wouldn't have been able to know how does it feels like to love someone and do something for others selflessly..........he did it to teach us HUMANITY Side: I cannot say
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Okay, you are asking us not to whip out a Bible and quote it as support, yet you are asking us to prove something that is stated in the Bible as foundation for one of many Spiritual doctrines. Historical evidence that a man named Jesus sacrificed himself to save mankind from, what was it again?, oh right! sin is a little blurry, mainly scholarly speculations. So until history does not concretely prove the man's motive and if he was indeed willing to die for mankind, I cannot provide historical proof of whatever argument I make. However, I can make a small inference, if Jesus had indeed sacrificed himself to save us from sin, the Jihad would not be occurring. and even if he did sacrifice himself I'll ask you to consider the state of the world and answer the following question: was it worth it? Side: he didn't and the same
I think we would be better off if it never happened or for some was never made up because then we would be much further advanced technology wise. There was nearly an 800 year period in human history where because of the power that the church had science was basically illegal and people were killed and discredited for any work they might have done for the simple bogus reasoning that "It goes against gods will." Side: Better
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