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If there were Shakespeare plays killing Obama, what do you suppose the Left would say?
First of all, there would be non stop coverage of the killing by all the Liberal news outlets. They would repeatedly show slow motion depiction of the actual killing.
They would show how the killers were all white men and therefore a racist lynch mob mentality. We would be reminded how it was during slavery and that the makers of this play were rightwing White Supremace Republican racists putting Black people in their place.
There would be screams of boycotting this play and any sponser who helped fund it.
They would call it hate speech and do all in their power to shut it down.
They would be screaming that the Right was trying to get Obama assasinated.
This Play, coming after numerous depictions of Trump's severed heads on Public College walls, etc., would bring down the total wrath of these hypocrite Democrats. They would be crying in front of the cameras telling us all how unbearable and barbaric it was to see these scenes.
The hypocrisy and double standards from the Democrat Party is beyond rational thought. For any person to vote for these hypocrites shows how low low end voters can get.
It depends on the context, intent and nature of how it was portrayed.
The OP appears to ignore that and simply leaps to the conclusion that regardless of context, nature or intent of the portrayal the left, as a whole will be outraged is not based on reality.
The portrayal of Obama in a play whose moral lesson is that those who act use political violence even for supposed good reasons end up destroying the very thing they claim to be defending (and it has been portrayed thus), there is a legitimate thought provoking reason for that portrayal; and there'd probably be free speech defence from the left.
If, however, such a portrayal was typical of some of the more outspoken and outrageous anti-obama rhetoric from the right (think Ted Nugent); where the intent was merely demonization, and the nature was based on the persons inherent hatred or dislike of the person in general and serving no other purpose; there'd probably be a negative reaction.
The OP is basically a misrepresentative false equivalence; trying to make it seem that what the left normally takes issue with (see: Ted Nugent) is equivalent to this example.
It's not, and self-evident it is not.
A Better example would be the likes of Kathy Griffin; which is almost identical to the nature and intent of Ted Nugents comments about both Obama and Hillary.
Kathy Griffin has earnt almost complete rebuke from the left in both the media (with massively negative portrayal), and from politicians.
So, contrary to the OP's deliberate mis-equivalence of context; the left in general often acts in the same way when equivalent situations occur.
Does "the entire left" act in the same way: no. There may always be outliers, offshots and fringe elements of the left that will act hypocritically
However, it is dishonest to portray the left as a whole based on the actions of the minority fringe element.
While the "Left" isn't always perfect at uoholding this standard; in recent politics, both politicians and the media have been clear about the distinction between "Republicans" and fringe elements such as white nationalists and the Alt-Right.
What planet do you live on? Because it sure ain't this one if you actually are trying to make the claim that the Left is acting responsibly and not totally hypocritical with constant double standards.
We are not talking about a private citizen (such as Ted Nugent) who says some provacative things. We are talking about the Democrat Party on a witch hunt to take Trump down.
We have spent 7 months of constant attempts to accuse Trump's campaign of conspiring with Russia, WITH NO EVIDENCE!
You did not mention how we have State sponsered hate speech when a Public College (Berkeley) chose to display a painting of Trump's severed head on their walls. This is State sponsered hatred for our President.
What Kathy Griffin did was barbaric but compared to Government sponsered hate speech on College walls, her's is nothing. Where is the outrage for Berkeley? Where are the demands to take that painting down or lose any Government funding!
If you can't see and admit this rabid hatred from the Democrat Party and the Liberal media against Trump, then you are a total waste of time to debate.
despite your claims to the country we are not talking about the democratic parties which hunt; the topic of the debate is clearly talking about how the left would react to equivalent events.
We are talking about private citizens and organizaions, its right there in the title.
The bottom line, is despite your assertions to the contrary, the left most assuredly acts consistently in a number of ways; accepted the caveats I mentioned.
You seem to ignore every example of the left doing what you claim they should be doing; while I won't deny there are some examples where the left should be more vocal, it's not examples I've been aware of (from fox, or the liberal media).
The irony, here is your selective memory and comfirmagion bias; with a total ignorance of the behaviour of Rush Limbaugh, Alex Jones, Fox News and republicans attitudes to the Clintons, Obama over and the left in general the last 25 years; including te multiple investigations on single subjects.
This is not to excuse examples where the left hasn't reacted how it should; which I'm sure are numerous, but simply to point out that you're ignorance or the horrifying sentiment and rhetoric that have come from the right.
You are quickly headed for the big IGNORE. I have no patience with Liberals who refuse to admit the truth.
In my argument, I also mentioned Trumps severed head on our public College walls sponsered by Government!
You deceptive morons never respond to this obvious State sponsered hate speech. You only want to speak to the Play so you can equate that to other private individuals who said bad things about Obama.
I will give you one more chance. Give me an example of Government sponsered hate Art against Obama as we are seeing with Trump on our Public College walls.
If a public College in a Conservative state had displayed Obama's severed head on their walls, the outcry of the Left calling them racists, fascists, etc. etc. would be deafening.
Funny thing about most Conservatives, they are not that mindlessly extremist and hateful.
As I said, there are issues on the left; I clarified this in my first and second posts. Fragments are to accepting of unacceptable behavior.
You, however, are acting like a conservative stereotype: a post dripping with bile, animosity against liberals and pretending as if the general behavior of the right isn't an issue, then claiming that liberals are hate filled and ignore reality.
You may want to fixate on a single example of an unacceptable piece of art in a college painted by a student that I had never heard of, nor read on fox, BBC or anywhere else; confuse Alaska with Berkeley and claim government funding, but as I said, when stuff is publicized it's rejected by the left.
The same behavior is often tolerated by te right, with multiple examples given.
But like I said, CONTEXT and INTENT is everything.
Show me where our more Conservative pubic Colleges are displaying hate art of Obama "BY PROFESSORS" not students as you suggested.
You do what most people on the Left do. You try to say both sides are just as bad. YOU ARE COMPLETLY WRONG BOUT THAT. Show me where Conservatives are displaying hate Art of Democrats on the walls of public Colleges.
The reason why Conservatives are so frustrated with deceptive Progressives and Liberal media, is because you are such hypocrites with unbelieable double standards.
You actually have the nerve to wonder why Conservatives get angry while trying to debate people on the Left? Are you that totally naive to what is going on around you every day?
This is one Professor. As I mentioned in my previous post; I don't know whether this is "tolerated by the democrats", as I'm pretty sure that it's coverage was so minimal that very few people actually know about it.
You are strongly implying this is a repeated occurrence; which it is not. It's one thing. That doesn't make that one thing any better; but trying to make it sound like it is a pattern is intellectually dishonest.
Secondly, there is a difference between saying "both sides are just as bad" (I actually think the evidence indicates that the right wing media, and prominent right wing individuals are often worse, but that's another topic), and "Both sides do the same thing".
You're demand that I show an identical scenario to show the right wing is just as bad, makes no sense: it is easy to show individuals on the right behave the same or worse in DIFFERENT scenario's:
For example, as I said; you had Ted Nugent repeatedly saying that both Hilary Clinton and Obama should be hanged for Treason; the media defending him and saying that the left were being hysterical, and he was then invited to the RNC and the Whitehouse. You have the current President demanding his political opponent should be jailed AND used language that strongly implied Hillary should be shot if she won the election.
These aren't some random professor in Alaska; that wasn't picked up prominently; this is directly relating to things the president has done.
More dangerously; you've had Fox news, the rest of the Right Wing media and the republicans propagating a narrative that Liberals and Democrats are dangerous and not to be trusted. That they are out to harm your way of life, harm hard working americans, take your guns, etc.
Are these all "Identical scenario's" to some random professor publically displaying an offensive painting? No. Are they just as bad? Of course: in terms of who did it, the authority and power they have over those that support them, and the potential effect they have on shaping peoples opinions and actions make them Far, far worse.
But of course; you seem to be fixating on the single example that wasn't well represented in the media as evidence despite every other example presented thus far shows the complete opposite.
You are a Liberal with your rose colored glasses frimly in place.
You are blind to the constant hate from the Left and can only see what you want to see.
No one disputes we have extremists on both sides, but the extremists on the Left is the Democrat party.
There are establishment Republicans who allowed a special prosecutor against Trump.
Democrat's NEVER allowed for a special prosecutor against all of Obama's administrations corruption... fast and furious, IRS, Loretta Lynch meeting with Clinton, Loretta Lynch telling Comey to change the investigation to a "matter", the Clinton foundation, Hillary's privte server, Bengazi, etc. etc. etc.
NO SPECIAL PROSECUTORS!
But the Republican Party allowed a special proescutor for the Democrat's witch hunt of Trump.
If Hillary had won, I fully expect that there would have been continued investigations (maybe a special investigation if congress had been fully republican), and probably impeachment. I'm fairly certain about this, as this is pretty much what republicans were saying.
The difference is, that what Hillary would have been investigated for, would be pretty much information, occurrences and scenarios that have been in the public domain for a while, and most have already been investigated at least one; either by the FBI, or repeatedly by congress.
That's likely the big difference.
Now, feel free to hurl unsubstantiated, conspiracy theories and accusations that you cannot possibly support; but they don't have much credibility.
It has even less credibility when you consider you're implying Lynch told Comey to change the investigation to a matter; rather than what she did; which is to simply ask him to "call" it that.
The credibility goes down even further when at least 4 of the items you cite require one of the individuals (Comey) to be both lying, and telling the truth about key details at the same time; AND deeply imply that he has to be both involved, and not involved as well.
The reason there is a Trump investigation at all; is the repeated confirmed revelations, lies and odd behavior coming from Trump, and his Campaign.
Russia Attempted to influence the election in favor of one candidate.
When the only group in american politics that deny this, is the candidate and his team; that looks suspicious.
When that Candidates team is headed by a really odd choice of campaign manager who appears to have strong ties to russia; it looks suspicious.
When multiple members of the administration repeatedly say they have not had contact with the Russians, then turn out to have had contact with the Russians: it looks pretty bad.
When the former NSA direct has broken the law due to acting as a foreign agent; when Russians have bragged about having influence over Flynn (though they could be lying), and bragged about having influence over another one of Trumps people Carter Page (though he probably didn't know it): it starts looking even more suspicious.
When the President still supports the guy who has commited crimes, lied on a security clearance form, and had ties to foreign governments; it looks bad.
When the President fires the guy in charge of the Russia Investigation after ALL of that, then produces a story that makes no sense to explain it; then says he fired him because of Russia (then allegedly told the Russians he did it for that reason); it looks pretty bad.
In fact, it looks so bad, even Republicans think it look bad.
That's not to say he's guilty of anything, or even that ANY one is guilty of anything; but to say it is a Witch Hunt, when EVERY single action that has made the investigation more prominent, broader in scope and more damaging to the president has been invariably things that the President or his Team has done; further pushed by Republicans on the investigating comittees: or in the DoJ, it starts sounding hilariously hollow, with misplaced bitterness to continually blame the Democrats.
I have stated, repeatedly, that there are issues with the left that need to be addressed.
It's rather odd that I would have rose colored glasses, and yet admit a number of issues.
There is hatred from a very specific subset of individuals, and fringe elements. There is a lot of anger from a substantial portion of the left; hate, not so much.
What is absolutely absurd; is that you've constantly ignored examples that do not fit into "democrats hate" narrative. You have ignored specific examples of republicans and the right wing media doing things that are much worse, have a much greater impact and having done so for a much longer period.
If you're ability to justify your position was as strong as your ability to ignore contrary evidence, and your ability to assert how right you are; you would be a very strong orator indeed.
Unfortunately, you don't seem to have much in the way of detail that supports your position; thus far simply one single example of a not-very-well reported incident by one person that you have lied about; an incident that appears to be refuted by actual real world examples of the democrats behaving contrary to what you say.
You think no one did Julius Caesar when Obama was president? Well, we don't have to just 'imagine' Shakespeare plays that depict Obama's death, because it happened. In 2012, the Guthrie theatre in Minneapolis (which is not just some regional theatre, it's rather high-profile) performed Julius Caesar, portraying the title character as Obama-esque. You can see pictures from the production here.
But you know why there wasn't outrage, or at least not this much outrage? Because Julius Caesar, the play, does not advocate violence. Have you ever read the play? Have you ever seen the play? Because it really sounds like you haven not and you're just repeating what Sean Hannity told you to say.
You and I are on the same page as this. I vaguely remembered there being an Obama likeness that was murdered in a theater production so thank you for finding it.
Right... like how when Kathy Griffen created the violent, art, she was reprimanded and fired. What double standard are you trying to expose? All of this is problematic.
You see you can't link any Left Wing Media that covered violent art when it came to Obama
But what you can do is try to protect those on the Left that want violence aimed at the current president. The double standard is owned by those on the Left.
Well, I know he elaborates in his description, but the title of the debate is: If there were Shakespeare plays killing Obama, what do you suppose the Left would say?
But theatre companies, at least the Guthrie and the Public, do not identify with political parties. Both have producers and donors from both sides of the political spectrum. The theatre world, especially in New York, is predominantly liberal, but not exclusively.
There was a movie in Hollywood called Kingsman: The Secret Service which featured the murder of President Obama. Big deal, it's meant to be shocking and thought provoking. And if you knew ANYTHING about that play, it is a warning against fighting tyranny using tyrannical means.
After killing Caeser, Brutus's actions brought about the death of the republic that they had been trying to save, including their own lives. It's a warning AGAINST murdering the leader to try to make things "better".
Sounds like the logic I use when I warn atheists about getting rid of Christianity to "make things better". No. It'll just make things less Christian and more something else. And the something else is probably worse. Nevertheless, the play was inappropriate seeing the climate of politics in the U.S. at the moment. If it was meant simply to make your point, then Trump wouldn't have been the one killed in the play. Caesar would have been.
They had no idea that Kathy Griffin was going to do that, it just happened to be that way. What she did wasn't right but there is a difference between a Trump look alike and an actual facsimile of Trumps severed head. It's small but it's there. The play was meant as a warning, the severed head was a second rate comedians desperate attempt to get noticed.
So what would you say is the warning? Be careful about pushing Trump out because he'll be replaced by someone who strongly opposes gay marriage and is more of a traditional conservative? Ahem.
After killing Caeser, Brutus's actions brought about the death of the republic that they had been trying to save, including their own lives. It's a warning AGAINST murdering the leader to try to make things "better".
And if you knew ANYTHING about that play, it is a warning against fighting tyranny using tyrannical means.
I think this is one of the few times you've willfully misread or misrepresented what I said. Come on now, you aren't Saint.
One can fight against Trump and what he's doing without resorting to methods that go against what we stand for.
And let me actually make something as clear as I can. We should be trying to support Trump. Love him or hate him he is our President. We need to cheer when he's doing something right and we need to push for him to be better when he's doing something wrong. That's my opinion on the matter, simply opposing him because you don't like him as a person isn't going to help anything, wanting him to fail when he's the one running this country, isn't going to help anything either.
I don't necessarily agree with the notion that getting rid of Christianity to "make things better" would ever actually make things better. It would breed contempt and destroy a lot of good in this world and people wouldn't be able to freely turn to God without fear of backlash.
The play was a play, it was a social commentary which is almost exactly what art is if it's looking to have shock value. A trump look alike was used in a play that was set in current times, if he wasn't President I would wager they would have used whoever was. That is a guess of course.
Kathy Griffin was an idiot. They can call that "art" all they want but I don't agree with it. Do you remember all of the Obama lynching's though? We've gone through this before, it wasn't right then and it wasn't right now, in my opinion.
Were all the Obama lynching covered on Left Wing Media because i never heard of that but i do remember the outrage of the Left when a rodeo clown wore an Obama mask. Sorry Mint those on the Left are just hypocrites
How interesting that you never heard of it, it was very big for a while with a lot of Republicans cheering it on and laughing, or it could be selective memory. If it's against someone you don't like it's one thing but when it's against someone you do like it's a whole different ballgame.
For the record, I don't agree with the severed head or the lynching effigies.
I see you have not linked any Left Wing Media and why is that Mint ? Is it because it was never covered by Left Wing Media if it was you have linked it. Now i will link something tied to Left Wing Media.
I've asked you to look at google (or whatever browser you use to type in Obama lynching) I also provided you a link with pictures to it. Please don't ignore that to try to make some moot point elsewhere.
Mint you can't link anything from CNN , MSNBC , ABC , CBS , NBC showing any of those supposed lynching of Obama that you claim. If it was such an issue all the above news organisations would have covered it.
Total hogwash to compare anything private citizens did in anger over Obama to our PUBLIC COLLEGES DISPLAYING TRUMP'S SEVERED HEAD ON THEIR WALS FOR ALL THE STUDENTS TO SEE.
To try and compare the two is pathetic.
This is what the Left ALWAYS DOES! They say, yes this is not good but the Right does it just as much.
YOU LIARS! YOU DECEIVERS!
The reason why the Left gets away with much worse is because the media has their backs! This is State sponsered hate speech when they display Trump's severed head on our public College walls.
The Right would not put such hateful so called Artistic expression on our public College walls.
LOL you banned Pirate because she showed you they did the EXACT same thing to Obama. She was correct, showed the evidence and it went against what you wanted. Talk about putting your head in the sand.
The Black man who payed Julius Ceasar was completely bald.
With Trump they gave Julius Ceasar the exact same hair and clothe of Trump. The timing of this play was terrible with all the anti Trump hatred and severed heads on Public buildings.
Democrats understand that the theatre is most times on their side, so they therefore let the so called similarities slide.
Republicans understand the theatre is most times against them so they understand what is going on.
HAHAHAHA Are you saying all white men are? It was based in the time our leader was Obama, just like it is now based in the time that Trump is our President. If it was Hillary I would wager it would be a woman Caesar. It's a commentary of the times.
Again, you don't know or understand the message of the play if you think it's a commentary on murdering Trump.
It does not matter the message of the play. They made Ceasar look exactly like Trump, and once again Trump was murdered as he was on our public College walls, and as Kathy Griffin displayed his severed head.
It's quiote amazing how many times we are watching the Left kill off trump in such a short time.
Either address the other point of my debate which was trump's decapitation sponsered by our Government, or we are through here.
Yes. It absolutely does. It is telling a story that teaches people that using tyrannical means to get rid of someone they believe to be tyrannical, will bring about the downfall of all. It's a warning.
Trump was murdered as he was on our public College walls,
Honestly I think it's in poor taste, but then I thought someone creating the Virgin Mary in dung was poor taste as well. Clearly my definition of art is different from them however it is ART. It is meant to inspire, shock, or make a statement. I don't like it, I think it's a poor choice in a time where there are a lot of people who are upset with him but it's a statement piece as opposed to what Griffin did.
Kathy Griffin displayed his severed head.
Yes, and it was STUPID, most people agree with her losing her job over it because it served zero purpose. It was a dumb stunt and she got rightfully called out on it.
It's quiote amazing how many times we are watching the Left kill off trump in such a short time.
And some of the right had burning effigies of Obama, had effigies of Obama being lynched, and (as was proven by Piratelfdog) had Obama being killed off when HE was portrayed as Caesar. Where was your outrage over that? Oh right, you didn't like Obama so it didn't matter to you.
Either address the other point of my debate which was trump's decapitation sponsered by our Government, or we are through here.
You've created so many debates you don't even remember which one you are on anymore, do you.
Your debate title: If there were Shakespeare plays killing Obama, what do you suppose the Left would say?
The Left would probably say: "It's been done before in 2012."
You keep spewing the same deception over and over again....
NO, OUR GOVERNMENT DID NOT FUND HATE ART AGAINST OBAMA ON PUBLIC WALLS AS YOU ARE SUGGESTING. QUIT LYING!
Those were private citizens who burned effigies of Obama. CAN YOU EVEN GRASP THE DIFFERENCE?
So let me get this straight. When Shakespeare supposedly depicted Obama as a tyrannical leader, why did the Left still embrace him as a wonderful leader, but crucify Trump?
You keep spewing the same deception over and over again....
You are so blind if you think that is deception.
NO, OUR GOVERNMENT DID NOT FUND HATE ART AGAINST OBAMA ON PUBLIC WALLS AS YOU ARE SUGGESTING. QUIT LYING!
Where did I say it did? You tell me exactly where I said it was the government that did that. The answer is that I didn't, you are being deceitful.
Those were private citizens who burned effigies of Obama. CAN YOU EVEN GRASP THE DIFFERENCE?
Obviously I can since I said Republicans but you took it as Government so I guess you can't.
So let me get this straight. When Shakespeare supposedly depicted Obama as a tyrannical leader, why did the Left still embrace him as a wonderful leader, but crucify Trump?
Shakespeare didn't know Obama. Obviously. I think what you meant was the play where Caesar was depicted as Obama in the play. That play has NOTHING to do with the Left "embracing him", they just didn't blow it out of proportion like some little snowflakes are doing now. People don't like Trump because he's an idiot who spends too much time tweeting nonsense, spreading hate and anger, and going on vacation. Those are a just few reasons. Has he done some good? Yes. Is it starting to outweigh all the bad? Not yet but hopefully he'll get on his feet and do better, if he gets that chance.
SO AGAIN. I don't agree with the art on the walls of that school, I think it's in poor taste but it is art. Kathy Griffin is a moron for doing what she did. And there was a Shakespeare play in 2012 where Obama was killed.
