CreateDebate


Debate Info

Debate Score:27
Arguments:18
Total Votes:28
More Stats

Argument Ratio

side graph
 
 Is 1984 history, present, or future? (18)

Debate Creator

HGrey87(750) pic



Is 1984 history, present, or future?

Naturally this refers to the novel, which can be used as a cautionary tale for those at the bottom, or maybe a blueprint for controlling them. Let's hope it doesn't become the target of Guy Montag anytime soon.

If it's been a while, here are the book's major themes:

 

  • Censorship, Surveillance Society & Police Power
  • Newspeak & Doublethink
  • National & International Conglomeration/ Centralization
  • Nationalism
  • Sexual Repression
  • Cult of Personality
Add New Argument
4 points

Apart from Doublethink (which other people have discussed already in this debate), one of the most interesting themes of the book for me, and one which resonates with the current political trend, is the perpetual war between the three superstates.

For those of you unfamiliar with the book, the world it's set in is within the grip of a perpetual war involving the book's three superstates, with two allied powers fighting against the third. Each superstate is so strong that it cannot be defeated even when faced with the combined forces of the other two powers. The allied states occasionally split with each other and new alliances are formed. Essentially, the war is unwinnable.

It was only on my second read though that it dawned on me that there actually is no war, and it is simply the means used to control the population. The fake war is the very reason that Big Brother is allowed to (or had the opportunity to) exist. Fear is the most efficient way for a government to be able to control the population. Nazi propoganda taught Germans not only to dislike Jews, but to actually fear them. When a populace is controlled through fear, as is evident by what happened with the Nazis, the agenda of those in power is easier to achieve.

It has been shown time and time again that people are willing to give up their hard-earned civil liberties in the face of fear, and I feel this is a trend that has become extremely evident in modern politics. The events of September 11th and the succeeding war on terror are a prime example of the ability to play on the fears of a populace to further the causes of one's own agenda. We're always being told that terrorists hate our freedoms, yet nothing has done more damage to those freedoms then the responses of western governments in an attempt to fight back against terrorism. Since 9/11, the US and the UK governments have passed numerous laws that infringe upon hard-earned civil liberties on the pretense of national security and pandering to media induced fear of terrorism; the Anti-Terrorism act (UK), the Patriot act (US), warrentless wiretapping (US), National ID Cards (UK), Communications Database (UK), Constitution-free zones (US), Protest-free zones (UK), and many many more.

Fear is an extremely powerful emotion, and can turn rational and thoughtful people into hateful mindless zombies. Fear is the number one way for a government to control its people, and the events in 1984 combined with the trend within current politics makes this, for me, one of the most important and interesting aspects of the book.

1984 was a warning; one that we should heed very soon.

Side: Present
2 points

I have to say I'm dissappointed that the patriot act has not been completely dismantled yet.

But I don't think we are in any immediate danger of becoming a society similar to the book.

For us to become a society like that in a democracy, the vast majority of voters would have to become incredibly stupid, lazy, and completely placid...

oh, wait.

Side: probably wont happen
1 point

Now, was that whole comment sarcastic, or just partly? I'm unsure as to your overall message.

Side: probably wont happen

1. Censorship, Surveillance Society, & Police Power

Censorship is run rampant, although less so since the Bush regime stepped out of power. Still, free speech is discouraged and often punished. Almost all public places have surveillance, and perhaps it is only a matter of time until private places are as well. The police, of course, are well out of hand, Taser-crazy and drunk with power.

2. National & International Conglomeration/Centralization

It appears that most industries are connected and melded intricately together, both nationally and internationally. It's like the monopolies and trusts of old, not necessarily good but not entirely bad.

3. Nationalism

Every day in grade school, when I'm forced to stand to salute the American flag, I can't help but feel that I'm in some fascist, terrifying, overly nationalistic country. My most vivid memory of brain-washed nationalism stems from Girl Scout camp, when I was perhaps 13 years old. Three young girls, no older than eight or nine, were folding the flag as we did at the end of every day, when a corner of the cloth touched the ground. My friend turned to me, horror on her face, shocked and disgusted that they had let the "sacred" American flag touch the ground. If this isn't overly nationalistic, I don't know what is.

4. Sexual Repression

With the abstinence-only advocates out of office, America's fear of sexuality will hopefully let up. However, sex is still a taboo topic, and something that is considered dirty and shameful. Unlike in my home country, Sweden, infants aren't even permitted to walk the beaches naked in the States.

5. Cult of Personality

If I'm interpreting this correctly, it's the repression of individualism. Individualism is certainly repressed, no matter where you turn. The majority of the people of the USA dress the same, work similar jobs, think similar thoughts, eat similar food, despite the "cultural melting pot."

While the situation in "1984" was far more extreme than present life, the shadow of it is certainly reflected, and who knows what the future may hold?

Side: A little bit but not completely

I'll make the argument for present.

Censorship, Surveillance Society & Police Power

--Ask Dan Rather and Bill Maher if censorship is real.

--Warrantless wiretapping, Cameras everywhere etc...

--Most local police are federalized with funding and equipment

from DHS.

Newspeak & Doublethink

-- "War on Terror", bringing people "freedom" and "liberty"

" Enhanced interrogations" etc.. This is all newspeak.

Endless war is peace, freedom is slavery and ignorance

strength. Straight out of Orwell.

National & International Conglomeration/ Centralization

How many time have you heard the words "New World Order"

since this economic crap started. Gordon Brown in England

can't stop saying it.

Nationalism

-- Easy one, right after 9/11 our country became a nationalist

nightmare. Flags everywhere, no questioning the leader,

Patriotism or lack there of as an indictment of loyalty. I do

not think it is as bad as it was in the days following 9/11,

but it hasn't subsided enough for my liking. Blind

nationalism is how people who should know better can

support things like torture.

Sexual Repression

-- Religion is the real answer for this one. The state can't do this as good as religion can, but it does bleed over in the religious right. Gay rights, strange and unnecessary sexual laws like the ones in Texas. Closeted gay Senators who can only get what they want in a bathroom. This self imposed repression, to me, is the worst when it is someone in power. Larry Craig has championed some very anti-gay legislation. After his incident, it can be argued that he used legislation to oppress others as he was repressing himself or better phrased: it makes it easier to oppress others if you are in a constant state of repression.

Cult of Personality

-- Bush, Obama... all of them have around them a cult of

personality. The "true believers" cannot be swayed whether

they are Bushies or Obamaniacs. It's true for both sides.

This is probably one of the most dangerous things on the

list.

Side: Present
2 points

Awesome, on all points. I'd like to add a few ancillary things I thought of.

Newspeak & Doublethink

- "Department of Defense" is classic Orwell.

- Endless war is peace, freedom is slavery and ignorance strength. I put this again, because people really will gloss over it when you say it just once. You could probably write an essay on any of these, but here's the short version: The US has according to itself rarely been the aggressor, and often manufactures provocation for war (Iraq, nearly Iran, Viet Nam, Anywhere in Central and South America) = War is Peace; Money is debt, and civilization is based on economic slavery = Freedom is Slavery; Bush was esteemed for being decisive, which was his code for ignoring conflicting evidence, and people are socially required to dismiss anything without investigation if it is heterodox = Ignorance is Strength. If anyone disagrees with any of these, I'll explain them fully

National & International Conglomeration/ Centralization

- United Nations, NATO, ASEAN, EU

Nationalism

- I can almost guarantee the refutations against your argument and mine are going to be based solely and blindly on this ;)

Sexual Repression

- If religious opposition to sex ed and contraception weren't so pervasive, there would be no AIDS & HPV epidemics. It's disgusting how "religious conservatives" can be so concerned about life to want to outlaw abortion, and can then turn around and oppose a vaccine that would prevent millions of cases of cervical cancer. Life isn't sacred to them, only their neat little world of unhealthy repression.

EDIT:

Cult of Personality

- Built around the very trait of being American. Nothing pegs us better than our smug sense of superiority.

Side: Present
2 points

"Blind nationalism is how people who should know better can support things like torture."

One of the truest statements I've read on this site.

Side: Present

On your last comment. Have you read "True Believer " by Eric Hoffer? Much of 1984, brazil, true believer, matrix, etc etc remind me of this.

Side: Present

I'll have to check that one out. Ah, Brazil... man I love that movie.

Side: Present
1 point

Censorship, Surveillance Society & Police Power

Newspeak & Doublethink

National & International Conglomeration/ Centralization

Nationalism

Sexual Repression

Cult of Personality

on censorship:

look how political correctness is taking such a toll. and the fact that we have hate crime laws. these are laws that prosecute based on beliefs of the individual. total bullshit.

surveillance: like security cameras? yeah, what about them?

Police power: i guess we should just get rid of police then...

Newspeak and Doublethink: look at how the liberal media favored Obama and trashed Palin and McCain. People can spout their BS about FNC, but according to the Project in Excellence in Journalism FNC provided the same amount of positive, neutral, and negative coverage for both candidates during the election.

Then there's this stuff about how waterboarding is torture and that we should raise the bar on our morals... stuff like that. total brainwashing of Americans. luckily, most Americans have not fallen for it according to gallop polls.

Centralization: Obama is pushing for Democratic Fascism (social Democracy sounds better i guess)... that's sounds like a lot of centralization to me.

Nationalism: The idea that we have to do what's right for the country first. that sounds good. although, blind patriotism can be harmful... but most Liberals despise America and see it as a creature that has only done harm to the world. the Liberals have power, so we don't have to worry about that right now. although, Obama does love his country (nationalist) and he believes in pushing socialist legislation (socialist).... so, he seems to me to be a National Socialist. in Germany, that was shortened to something... i think, Nazi.

Sexual Repression: Well, people are still allowed to have sex with consenting adults... so i don't see where this is happening. someone mentioned religion. religion is a free practice that anyone can do if they want to. if they wish to practice abstinence or w/e, let them. but the government is not regulating who we fuck (unless you want to fuck little kids, but that's based on common sense).

Cult of Personality: Obama was a brilliant speaker and people liked him. plus, he got 99% of the black vote. The man, when it comes to personality, is modern Hitler. Although, Hitler did it with much less media support than Obama. But, issues on race and socialism did help both of them get into office.

is 1984 here? not yet. as long as we continue our right to bear arms, the South won't let shit happen. yeah, the pussies in the North and West Side will easily submit, but I guess all evils in this country are necessary.

one thing is for certain, people are fuckin' stupid. it's not like it would be that hard to impose a totalitarian, Commie Socialist state.

I mean, John Adams imposed a much harsher version of the Patriot Act (one that actually HURT Americans). Andrew Jackson was a centralizer. Abraham Lincoln imposed Marshal Law, ignored the Supreme Court and Congress and took in political prisoners. FDR sent people to camps based on their race (all japs and most germans and italians). McCarthy took in political prisoners (both presidents let him). Clinton lied under oath and accepted bribes and the people didn't care.

LBJ, FDR and Lincoln all imposed the draft, forcing Americans to go out and fight and most likely die.

Lincoln allowed Grant to commit Total War, which is kill anyone in the way (including innocent civilians) causing the death toll of civilian casualties to sky rocket during the Civil War.

Bush imposed the Patriot Act which allows the government to spy on citizens if they have probable cause (but no warrants have to be given).

Side: A little bit but not completely
xaeon(1095) Disputed
2 points

"Newspeak and Doublethink: look at how the liberal media favored Obama and trashed Palin and McCain. People can spout their BS about FNC, but according to the Project in Excellence in Journalism FNC provided the same amount of positive, neutral, and negative coverage for both candidates during the election."

What has that got anything to do with doublethink or newspeak? Have you read 1984?

I actually found doublethink one of the most thought-provoking aspects of the book (along with the faux war, which is an extremely evident tactic employed in modern politics). Doublethink was about being able to hold two contradictory beliefs in your mind at a single time. The most important aspect about it was to forget any fact that has become inconvenient, and then, when it becomes necessary again, to draw it back from oblivion.

"although, Obama does love his country (nationalist) and he believes in pushing socialist legislation (socialist).... so, he seems to me to be a National Socialist. in Germany, that was shortened to something... i think, Nazi.

The way you throw around the word 'socialism' and the cannotations you seem to imply by it indicates to me that you're completely and utterly uninformed. The Nazis were in absolutely no way socialists.

Side: A little bit but not completely
ThePyg(6738) Disputed
1 point

did i say the Nazis specifically believed in a socialist economy? no. but, Nazi is short for Nationalsozialismus which in English is National Socialism.

The National Socialist German Workers Party considered themselves socialist. if you wish to tell them that their ideology was wrong... alright. but that doesn't change what Nazism is. National Socialism.

Side: A little bit but not completely
HGrey87(750) Disputed
1 point

these are laws that prosecute based on beliefs of the individual. total bullshit.

That's deceptive wording. "Hate crimes (also known as bias-motivated crimes) occur when a perpetrator targets a victim because of his or her membership in a certain social group" [Wikipedia]

surveillance: like security cameras? yeah, what about them?

Like illegal wiretapping? What about it? Like the politically viable proposition of RFID chips? What about it? Like surveillance of nonviolent political dissidents? What about it? Remember, the Nazis began by identifying and listing all the targeted minorities before they attacked.

look at how the liberal media favored Obama and trashed Palin and McCain... according to the Project in Excellence in Journalism FNC provided the same amount of positive, neutral, and negative coverage for both candidates during the election.

[http://www.journalism.org/node/13436]

The MSNBC bias is blatant, holy crap. FOX is fair and balanced, believe it or not, but bias isn't absent:

"On Fox News, in contrast, coverage of Obama was more negative than the norm (40% of stories vs. 29% overall) and less positive (25% of stories vs. 36% generally). For McCain, the news channel was somewhat more positive (22% vs. 14% in the press overall) and substantially less negative (40% vs. 57% in the press overall). Yet even here, his negative stories outweighed positive ones by almost 2 to 1."

Equal pos/neg coverage of candidates is nice and all, but really. I didn't like Obama and Biden either, but McCain & Palin were just a horrible insult to this country's intelligence. Putting them on equal footing is lying through omission.

Then there's this stuff about how waterboarding is torture and that we should raise the bar on our morals... stuff like that. total brainwashing of Americans. luckily, most Americans have not fallen for it according to gallop polls.

What? Try explaining an argument, rather than simply stating it as if it were fact. And Doublethink was the ability to live with cognitive dissonance, such as claiming the moral high ground when abusing power. Like our nation's worst habit.

Centralization: Obama is pushing for Democratic Fascism (social Democracy sounds better i guess)... that's sounds like a lot of centralization to me.

I wouldn't even cede him the word "Democratic". We were already technically Fascist, but he's pulling us across the blurry line to a taste of Socialism.

Nationalism: The idea that we have to do what's right for the country first. That sounds good. although, blind patriotism can be harmful...

Did you object to anything Dubya did?

but most Liberals despise America and see it as a creature that has only done harm to the world.

You're making conservatives look stupid and rabid, and that's not fair to them.

Obama does love his country (nationalist) and he believes in pushing socialist legislation (socialist).... so, he seems to me to be a National Socialist. in Germany, that was shortened to something... i think, Nazi.

Oh... wow. You might wanna put a ";)" after that, or people will think you're a fucking wacko. And the Nazis were Socialist only in name.

Sexual Repression: Well, people are still allowed to have sex with consenting adults... so i don't see where this is happening.

It's happening in airport bathrooms, and in the minds of other powerful gay men who are coerced by their culture to make hate speech against gays. It's in the highest rates of sexual assault, teen pregnancy, and abortion in the Western world. It's in mothers who shield their children's eyes and try to sue the Super Bowl and Janet Jackson, because of the horrible corrupting influence of the human titty; Those same parents won't flinch when their kid rents R-rated ultraviolence. It's in the religious who are "universally concerned for life" and try to outlaw abortion and the cervical cancer-preventing HPV vaccine at the same time. It's the somehow politically viable stance for abstinence-only sex-ed. It's pervasive. Maybe you don't know 'cause you're not having any? :P

Cult of Personality: Obama was a brilliant speaker and people liked him. plus, he got 99% of the black vote. The man, when it comes to personality, is modern Hitler.

Wow. Do you need another ";)?"

Although, Hitler did it with much less media support than Obama.

Can you prove that? It's extremely hard to believe. Since you don't substantiate it, I'm inclined to think you're talking out your ass again.

But, issues on race and socialism did help both of them get into office.

Not to mention the "change" thing. They were both "turnaround" candidates, who tuned into a widespread belief their countries were wounded and wronged. Brilliant, talented opportunists.

is 1984 here? not yet. as long as we continue our right to bear arms, the South won't let shit happen. yeah, the pussies in the North and West Side will easily submit, but I guess all evils in this country are necessary.

Why the West? I thought gun control was pretty lax there too? But you're right; The 2nd Amendment is our LAST check against government oppression. Sadly, it seems it will come down to whichever side the Army is on. There needs to be a way to ensure they'll fall on the right side, but it doesn't seem like that's a sure thing.

one thing is for certain, people are fuckin' stupid. it's not like it would be that hard to impose a totalitarian, Commie Socialist state.

Yes. One could argue it's already in the process of being imposed, and people are unaware of the signs. Can you at least admit the possibility that the PATRIOT ACT is dangerous to our freedoms, and that the beliefs you hold are the product of propaganda efforts to let them slip by?

Andrew Jackson was a centralizer.

Come on, you gave all those other presidents a hard time. Can't you be a little harsher on "Ol' Genocidey?"

FDR sent people to camps based on their race (all japs and most germans and italians).

Germans and Italians? You are mistaken.

Clinton lied under oath and accepted bribes and the people didn't care.

Is it perjury if the case should never have gone to court? And I'm not familiar with his bribes, but a quick google put WorldNetDaily and FreeRepublic near the top of the results. Not a good sign for real news.

Bush imposed the Patriot Act which allows the government to spy on citizens if they have probable cause (but no warrants have to be given).

If by "they have probable cause" you mean "the president says so."

Side: A little bit but not completely
ThePyg(6738) Disputed
1 point

yes, the Patriot Act is in some ways harmful mainly because it's not clear enough.

luckily, it's only been used to wiretap suspicious calls, but the Act itself is not clear enough on when and how it can be used, and that's bad.

what i objected to what Dubya did:

Didn't handle the Iraq War properly

Allowed a very broad law that could harm the country (Patriot Act).

Focused on increasing Social Security.

Did not revert government spending from Welfare and Medicaid to things more important (security, science, education).

Spent too much of a bailout (some sort of a bailout might have been necessary, but he did too much).

Wanted to ban gay marriage.

so yes, i have objected to many things that G-Dub has done... so what was your point anyway?

As for Germans and Italians in camps:

http://www.tshaonline.org/handbook/online/articles/WW/quwby.html

not your fault though. this is one of those things that only History buffs know.

Side: A little bit but not completely
1 point

He who controls the Past, controls the present.

People are dangerously ignorant of history. The material in publicly used textbooks is chosen for being acceptable and non-controversial, rather than accurate-- anything otherwise will risk lawsuit against schools who use it. I urge you to read dissident literature; it's heterodox because it exposes the ugly truth behind our history.

If people don't learn the truth of history, it will die with its victims.

Side: A little bit but not completely