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Debate Info

17
13
Yes it is No, magic is real
Debate Score:30
Arguments:27
Total Votes:30
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Argument Ratio

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 Yes it is (13)
 
 No, magic is real (12)

Debate Creator

burnjuan(59) pic



Is America too religious?

Yes it is

Side Score: 17
VS.

No, magic is real

Side Score: 13
3 points

As an outsider looking at America, myself coming from a country where people tend to keep themselves to themselves as regards personal theories about the nature of the universe, and where the majority of people are accepting of science and reason, it is very strange to see a country where people fear and hate science, where half of the citizens reject one of the most solid theories in science in favour of a Bedouin creation myth. You guys need to have another look at your constitution.

Side: Yes it is
1 point

Social progress has been repeatedly obstructed throughout United States history by religion (e.g. civil rights, interracial marriage, same-sex marriage, etc.). Political and legal efficiency and justice have been restricted and heavily counteracted by religious views being imposed upon the lives of those who do not share them. Absolute realities substantiated by incontrovertible evidence have been actively opposed in preference for superstitious dogma, to the detriment of scientific and societal progress. I could go on, but I believe my point has been communicated. Religion has consistently existed in the U.S. as a restriction upon social progress, legal justice, and personal liberty. It is fine if individuals wish to hold deluded views of reality, but to impose those views upon the lives of others through institutionalized religion is a harmful excess.

Side: Yes it is
1 point

Yes, but only because of the imposition their religion places on their society as a whole. Too many politicians are legislating from the Bible, and religious interest groups influence policy making to reflect their beliefs and exclude others' repeatedly. People have this idea that America is a Christian nation, when in fact, it is secular and freedom of religion is a natural right under the Constitution.

Side: Yes it is
Revolt(201) Clarified
1 point

And by the way, I'm not implying in any way that the majority of Christian Americans disagree with the tenet of freedom of religion. And in my first sentence, "their religion" should be instead "Christians".

Side: Yes it is
2 points

This debate is obviously bigoted, as it automatically pegs religion as detrimental and all religious people as detrimental.

I will say right now, religion is not entirely good or entirely bad. There is such a thing as too much of it. But, religion exists to give meaning where some may find none. Hedonism is the equal and opposite of religion. Religion exists to counteract hedonism, because hedonism is the state of whence you apply no meaning to something in life. While this is good in some cases, there is such a thing as there being too much of it, i.e., applying no meaning to everything, thus giving no value to your own life and existence.

Religion can be bad because there is such a thing as too much value, and hedonism can be bad because there is such a thing as not enough value.

If America is too religious, then I pose the statement that America is also too hedonistic.

Side: No, magic is real
ChuckHades(3197) Disputed
2 points

Your statement doesn't really answer the question. It seems to be a form of tu quoque, actually.

Basically someone has accused America of being too X, and you've responded by saying "Yea, but hey, it's Y too!"

Side: Yes it is
chatturgha(1631) Disputed
1 point

I wasn't exactly attempting to answer the question so directly. Moreover, I was trying to point out that one thing is X because another thing is Y.

I think a more important question is, is America being too religious a bad thing?

It's too much of one thing because we have too much of another thing.

I personally think that having too much of both is a bad thing, but, I do think having too much of both, constantly counteracting each other in a culturally subliminal manner, is preferable to having too much of just one of them.

Therefore, given the circumstances, I do not think America is too religious, because at least the good side of mainstream religion has a purposeful thing to counteract, instead of just the bad side of religion oppressing people for no good reason.

Side: No, magic is real
Jace(5222) Disputed
1 point

To the contrary. The use of the word "too" makes this a question of excess, rather than one attempting to ascribe an inherent quality to all quantities of religion. The distinction you made is already present in the question, and it is not a bigoted query but one for legitimate consideration (you yourself state that there is "such a thing as too much of it").

As far as your observations regarding religion and hedonism, I must say that I find your analysis grossly inaccurate. For starters, hedonism is a perspective that places value upon that which brings pleasure (nihilism would be a view that ascribes to no system of values). Ignoring your semantic inaccuracy and addressing the point I believe you were trying to make: The opposite of religion is not the absence of meaning or value. It is an unfounded and empirically disproved presumption; there are numerous atheists who find meaning in life and ascribe to a system of values and there are less religious countries which still clearly ascribe to a system of values and purpose.

Side: Yes it is
Jace(5222) Clarified
1 point

I just read the subtitle to the "no" stance and would like to make an addendum. The question itself remains one of excess. The qualifying statement "no, magic is real" does alter the context a bit, however I do not think that it implies that religion is detrimental (magic could arguably be good if it actually existed).

Side: Yes it is
chatturgha(1631) Disputed
1 point

To the contrary. The use of the word "too" makes this a question of excess, rather than one attempting to ascribe an inherent quality to all quantities of religion

See my reply to Chuck above. You both found my original reply lacking the answer to the debate's question, so I took the liberty of clarifying the purpose of my statement in relation to the question in my reply to Chuck.

For starters, hedonism is a perspective that places value upon that which brings pleasure (nihilism would be a view that ascribes to no system of values).

Value is not a perspective. Value is value. Whatever has value, has value. It can be measured in some fashion. Meaning is a perspective, though. But just because something has meaning does not mean it has value.

And the value of life as shown to us though observation is that it can be measured by the accomplishments you make for our species. Hedonism does not, in it's modern form, contribute to advancing our species. Therefore hedonism has no value. Hedonism applies a life meaning to pleasure-seeking, but that meaning does not have a value because it does not contribute to anything except selfish whims.

The opposite of religion is not the absence of meaning or value. It is an unfounded and empirically disproved presumption; there are numerous atheists who find meaning in life and ascribe to a system of values and there are less religious countries which still clearly ascribe to a system of values and purpose.

Religion is the presumption that because we are, there is meaning and therefore there should be value. While this lacks logic and reasoning when examined in a literal sense, it has a logic in relation to cultural evolution. What it's meant to do is give people a reason to contribute to the advancement of society and our species; when one cannot find meaning in their existence, religion may or may not give that person a reason, and therefore incentive to contribute.

Surely though you were intelligent enough to know that. Religion, while not having logic when examined literally, DOES in fact serve a reasonable purpose in human existence. It didn't come about in our society 'just because'. It came about for a reason that inevitably contributed to our advancement over time.

Which is why I'm fairly shocked you'd even think this argument of mine has anything to do with the literal examination of religion, when it should be obvious that it doesn't. It's like you think I'm a fool, or are a fool yourself. Though, this is probably just because of a miscommunication.

Side: No, magic is real
1 point

Hedonism is the equal and opposite of religion. Religion exists to counteract hedonism, because hedonism is the state of whence you apply no meaning to something in life.

This statement holds absolutely no water. How can it, when there are hedonistic religions? Do these religions that are founded on, preach, and practice hedonism also commit themselves to counteracting hedonism?

A religion is just a set of beliefs regarding life, often pertaining to the supernatural. Hedonism, the belief that pleasure is the highest good, fits the bill of a religion perfectly; it's a set of beliefs regarding life. And oftentimes this takes on a ritual, spiritual, or supernatural element. How is the moral code of acting to seek pleasure so invalid a set of beliefs as to be not considered a moral code at all?

In regards to hedonists applying no meaning to life, why is pleasure inherently meaningless?

Side: Yes it is
chatturgha(1631) Disputed
1 point

This statement holds absolutely no water. How can it, when there are hedonistic religions? Do these religions that are founded on, preach, and practice hedonism also commit themselves to counteracting hedonism?

Of course they do not, but now the question is, are these religions successful?

Absolutely not.

They seek to counteract the bad of hedonism by attempting to make the bad of hedonism not bad. This is even more illogical an act then reading thousands of years old text so that you can apply meaning to your life, because hedonism abhors value in one's life.

Such is why these religions are not even successful. Or even really heard of by a general populace. Ask anyone in the United States what Rastafarianism is and they will almost for certain have no idea what you're talking about.

It's that that literally religion attempts to counteract hedonism. It does subliminally, however. Religion attempts to give meaning to one's existence so that a person has a reason to contribute to their lives and other people's lives (which more or less is successful, results may vary, of course). Hedonism ultimately does the opposite. Hedonism would have it that you drown yourself in pleasure for the sake of pleasure. Pleasure without a cause has no value and contributes nothing.

Hedonism has you not suffer but refrain from contributing. Mainstream religion has you suffer but contribute to society. That makes them opposites, at least when looking at the most successful religions.

After having read your second paragraph, now I see that I just made a mistake in my terminology. I should have been more specific. Mainstream religion is what I mainly speak of, not religion in general.

In regards to hedonists applying no meaning to life, why is pleasure inherently meaningless?

Because pleasure by itself contributes nothing to anything. There is no meaning, or more appropriately said, value, if there is no end benefit to you or another person. Pleasure by itself is not a benefit; it is just a sensation.

Side: No, magic is real
1 point

I understand that the statement "No, Magic is real" is likely to be offensive to religious people. But I personally find it funny, mostly because I'm not a religious person.

Hedonism is not the opposite of religion. It is a life philosophy of sorts that seeks to maximize pleasure while minimizing pain, in regards to the person.

I, being entirely devoid of religion, don't have this hedonistic view towards life. To state that hedonism is the equal and/or opposite of religion is completely false. Hedonism does not encourage a valueless lifestyle.

Your last statement about america being too hedonistic, that might be true but not in the sense that you meant it to be true. Lots of people are highly concerned with only seeking out pleasure in their lives. This does not mean that they assign little to no value towards lots of things in life. Think of all the people who drinks gallons of alcohol every weekend, murdering their livers, just so they can have temporary enjoyment. Think of all the people who do drugs just to seek the temporary pleasure of that high they always crave. This would be hedonistic.

So is America too hedonistic when properly defined? Probably.

Hedonism and religion are not mutually exclusive.

America is too hedonistic and too religious, in my opinion.

Side: Yes it is
chatturgha(1631) Disputed
1 point

I understand that the statement "No, Magic is real" is likely to be offensive to religious people. But I personally find it funny, mostly because I'm not a religious person.

I am not extraordinarily religious myself.

But I understand the good side of religion and what it both fulfills and damages in our lives. To assume it's completely bad irks me.

Hedonism is not the opposite of religion. It is a life philosophy of sorts that seeks to maximize pleasure while minimizing pain, in regards to the person.

And generally such a thing cannot be accomplished without a modicum of selfishness. Some hedonists accept that as a fact, some do not. But ultimately, it is true.

Mainstream religion emphasizes selfless sacrifice (or attempts to in essence, at least, not always succeeding, especially in modern times) no matter the pain that is causes a person on the idea that being selfless will give you more reward then penalty.

Since this is so, generally, they are opposite. One says "As a human being, I deserve to not be uncomfortable no matter the cost," while they other says, "As a human being, I do not deserve to be comfortable at all if it costs anyone else their own comfortability."

Hedonism does not encourage a valueless lifestyle.

It doesn't?

Then please explain to me what value there is in just pleasure?

How does it give incentive to continuing living? What goal does it set in a person's life?

I can understand the softer side of hedonism, as a theory, and that it can be construed as something not quite so incredulously selfish. But with how culture presents hedonism, it is no longer automatically conceivable as something so light. When anyone thinks hedonism, the first thought is not of a great philosopher, but of orgies and Roman vomitoriums.

So when I speak of hedonism, I do not speak of it's good, well-mannered champions, because I do not believe there are enough of them anymore for them to really represent it in a good light.

This does not mean that they assign little to no value towards lots of things in life

Maybe they do not believe that they do, but they do.

What evidence is there that they assign meaning to their existence?

Well... okay, pleasure has meaning by itself, but no value by itself. It contributes to nothing alone, and when alone, actually has a high risk of taking away from your own life and the lives of others. Therefore it contributes to nothing but your own selfish wim, and therefore it's valued at nothing.

Think of all the people who drinks gallons of alcohol every weekend, murdering their livers, just so they can have temporary enjoyment. Think of all the people who do drugs just to seek the temporary pleasure of that high they always crave. This would be hedonistic.

This is the kind of behavior I speak of.

I'm actually a tad confused that we're even disagreeing. You don't seem to totally disagree with me, except perhaps with terminology?

Side: No, magic is real

If America was too religious, would it have allowed gay marriage? Pro-Choice? Women's rights? According to those that take the Bible literally, it is impossible for America to be too religious.

Side: No, magic is real
Jace(5222) Disputed
1 point

Observing that America could be even more radically Christian and conservative is not an argument that it is not already too religious. That civil rights have been consistently denied to multiple citizens of this country on the basis of religion, and that the religious views of some are imposed upon the personal lives of others, stands as evidence that America is too religious. The cost in social equity and scientific progress has been clearly and observably high on account of religion.

Side: Yes it is
1 point

Not at all. Most Americans claim to be Christians but in reality have never even opened their bibles, the only reason there is a big controversy about gay marriage is only because they don't agree with it. Like in France how they eat snails, If someone were to stick a plate of those in front of me I would gag. Its basically because we don't except taboos in society.

Side: No, magic is real
2 points

Most Americans claim to be Christians but in reality have never even opened their bibles

The bible is not the religion, its just a religious text, a collection of stories and letters collected over time and were edited and put into one book by the church. The bible is not the word of god it is the word of the church, Christianity is about their beliefs not about if they line up with this one book.

This would be different if we were talking about Islam where the Qur'an is the actual religion itself than you would have an argument.

Side: Yes it is
Assface(406) Disputed
1 point

Taboo isn't intrinsic. Those taboos were inspired by something, and it is often argued that they arose from the Christian culture when most Americans did read their Bibles--religiously.

Side: No, magic is real
1 point

Too religious for what??

to drive cars? (probably been too facetious here)

"No, magic is real" that's not a counter statement!

but have been to magic shows and seen them on TV. Very entertaining. ;-)

Side: No, magic is real

No, there are countries that are much more religious than America.--------------

Side: No, magic is real