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32
32
A myth A reality
Debate Score:64
Arguments:35
Total Votes:68
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 A myth (21)
 
 A reality (14)

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NurJahan(9) pic



Is American Democracy a myth or a reality?

A myth

Side Score: 32
VS.

A reality

Side Score: 32
4 points

Thomas Jefferson intended the constitution to reflect the truest democracy, but of course the land holding aristocracy would not budge unless the power was consolidated to them. The last 200 years have only tightened this leash by widening the gap between the poor and the elite, and allowing aristocratic greed to go unchallenged through the use of propaganda, and fear campaigns. If it were a Democracy, then the people would actually be represented by there own kind. How is it possible that 4% of the people control 80% of the wealth and power? In a real democracy. Those 4% would control 4%. In a real democracy every aspect of the system would be engineered, promoted, and sustained by the constituents, and not appointed by what I would call Oligarchs. The only saving grace in this illusions is the simple fact that I can right this post at all. But as we see more and more, even in Communist China, and Tyrannical Iran, a squirrel gets a nut now and then. It's part of the propaganda model that helps to perpetuate the falsehood of a true democracy.

Side: A myth

Well..., then lets get rid of government. Think about it, do animals have a government?

We then get rid of money. Do animals need money? We'll barter instead. Kinda like how animals have a symbiotic relationship.

We'll become nomads. We'll become territorial. Did the American Indians own land?

But whatever we chose to do, we cannot install a government that will redistribute wealth. That is communism.

Side: A myth
DrOppotimus(43) Disputed
4 points

A fancy notion, but that will never fly. You can say it worked for the Indians, but not really. Look at them now. There is always some douchebag in the world you plans to dominate someone else. The only way to avoid this is to create your own strength. I'm not saying disband the government, I'm saying put it back in the hands of the population were it's actually supposed to be to begin with and create an actually democracy. Also Nomadic tribes are generally non democratic. Democracy can only thrive in Horticultural societies where the quest for food is already won. Nomadic societies can ill afford squabbling in their ranks, it could be the difference between life and death for them.

Side: A myth
jessald(1915) Disputed
1 point

Wtf, 3 points? How stupid can people be?

Guess what, animals kill each other on a regular basis! They don't have a stable food supply. They don't have shelter from the weather. They don't have access to healthcare or education.

Being an animal sucks.

Side: A reality
jessald(1915) Disputed
1 point

Democracy doesn't have anything to do with the distribution of wealth. Your beef is with capitalism. Capitalism invariably concentrates wealth in the hands of a few. What you're advocating is actually communism.

"Communism is a social structure in which classes are abolished and property is commonly controlled"

Bad idea. Communism doesn't work. History has shown repeatedly that well regulated free markets are the best way to promote the overall well-being of society.

The answer is not to do away with capitalism, but to use government to lessen the damage it can do. Government can redistribute a portion of the wealth from the richest to the rest of us. Government can force big corporations to play by the rules. Government can keep failing companies from taking down the entire economy.

What we need is a wall separating corporate interests from government. We need to stop lobbyists from having too much influence over politicians. We need to make it so that the primary factor in getting elected is not the amount of money you can raise, but your ability to appeal to the voters. The Democratic party is much more in line with these values than the Republican party.

Don't give in to bitterness. Work to improve the system. And for the love of god, don't vote Republican.

Side: A reality
DrOppotimus(43) Disputed
2 points

I didn't mention anything about the redistribution of wealth, or communism. The question remains if America is a Democracy. I will say no. Should it be? probably not. Is power consolidated to a handful of elites? Most certainly. Do the represent the will of the public? No they do not. Even though this argument is about capitalism, since you brought it up, if your interested in seeing the failure of capitalism in it's finest form, please read The Jungle, by Upton Sinclair. You will see what unrestrained greed produces. Bottom line is America is not a Democracy, but rather it is a Republic, so it remains a myth.

Side: A myth
2 points

A democracy is nothing more than mob rule, where fifty-one percent of the people may take away the rights of the other forty-nine.

Thomas Jefferson

The FF hated democracy as a form of government and hence provided us with a Constitutional Republic. A quick search regarding the aftermath of a true democracy reveals the ingenious intent of those who founded this nation.

The US was not founded as a democracy nor should it be considered as such. Only those with simple minds incapable of comprehending the ramifications of such prefer said argument. They also tend to be of the ilk that sacrifice their Liberty on the altar of their freedoms. I find it amazing that the shallow minded are more than capable of giving away everything that is NOT theirs.

No, this nation was not founded as a democracy nor should it revert to such a form of government. Those who gave their all to establish it despised democracy and a few minutes of your time used for research can readily understand why.

Side: A myth
DrOppotimus(43) Disputed
1 point

I agree that most of the FF detested democracy, and your quote is indeed from Jefferson's mouth. However, the context is a bit skewed. I probably should not have said "truest form of democracy", but rather the truest form of "representative democracy." He did intend to give the people the power to choose egalitarian representation but the wealthy elite could ill afford to allow the lower classes to control government functionality. This view was debated vigorously by the draft board, and Jefferson eventually had to concede to allow for more isolated controls. It truly does suck since it paved the way to what we have now which is a bastardized corporate controlled technocracy. It's a real shame it turned out that way. If Jefferson would of had his way there would have been term limits through all the branches of the government, and people could more easily oust those who are corrupt lifers blood sucking the citizenry dry.

Side: A myth
A4B4(50) Disputed
2 points

Slightly off topic, but term limits have actually made it easier for the corrupt to stay in politics. Before term limits, so long as one did a good enough job to be re-elected, s/he would keep his/her job. Since term limits, however, it doesn't matter. The end result is that more "average" people can't run for office.

Imagine this: You run for congress and get elected. While in office, you lose your job. When you eventually lose that office (as you inevitably will, due to term limits), you have no job to return to. That transition is very difficult. But, if you have "worked with" some big corporations, they can easily take you into their fold.

Sure, in theory your employer should keep a position for you. But, keeping extra positions open for someone, for years upon years, is not typically viable for most companies, except for the larger corporations.

Side: A myth
1 point

I don't disagree with your post. What you fail to highlight is that individual rights is the crux of the debate. Democracy tosses individual rights by the wayside should the majority vote against said individual rights.

This nation is in dire straights. Individual liberties have been stripped....Kelo decision????

If the majority votes that everyone take a chip, is that acceptable? It's certainly democratic but in no way acceptable based on a nation founded upon individual rights.

Side: A myth
1 point

American democracy is a myth!

Whether America is a republic or not, that's not the core of the debate. The crucial point, however, is the wars waged in the name of democracy by a country which claims it has the duty to make the world "safe for democracy" and eliminate brutal dictatorships.

I'm referring here to America's foreign policy, yes!

What democratic country which still pokes her nose into others affairs, while forgetting about domestics problems?!

Where's the freedom of mass media? It is not free of biases. The news reported are utterly different of what is going on really in the world. We've seen how the war in Gaza was talked about on TV and in newspapers, of course making it look less damaging, i.e. a harmless conflict.

Is the majority with America in fighting her wars, or just a minority? Voting to select representatives, is different from voting to declare wars.

The ideals of a true democracy are completely different from America's faked democracy... but forcing it on others isn't wise, and not democratic either.

Side: A myth
1 point

The "United States" part of America is by definition a constitutional republic and not a democracy.

just sayin' =/

Side: A myth
4 points

All American citizens (with very few exceptions) have the right to vote. Therefore we have democracy in America.

It's really that simple.

Side: A reality
A4B4(50) Disputed
1 point

First off, we have more of a republic than a democracy. Sure, our representatives are elected by popular vote (except of course for the president), but we the people vote on a small fraction of the laws effected each year. Have you voted on the health care bill?

Moreover, there's a great deal of opacity in our government. Who enacted what law that caused which problems? We don't know! Too often, we hold one politician responsible for the problems created by the politician before him/her. At least in many monarchies, the ruling class is held much more responsible than here in America.

Side: A myth
jessald(1915) Disputed
3 points

A republic like we have in the US is a kind of democracy -- a representative democracy.

All of the bills passed by our government are available for anyone to read. For example, here's a summary of the health care bill passed by the House: link. Don't blame government for your own laziness.

Should we improve our legislative process? No doubt. Why don't you do something about it? Or would you rather just whine on the internet?

At least in many monarchies, the ruling class is held much more responsible than here in America.

Yeah, right. Got an example? Seems to me the Republicans got held responsible pretty well in the last election.

Side: A reality
johnnyboy46(211) Disputed
1 point

A democracy does NOT necessarily mean that everyone has the right to vote. That is called a republic. A democracy is when the people have COMPLETE control over the government, with no middle man. Currently, the process is as follows:

we vote-->our votes are recieved by our congressmen-->they decide whether they like our votes or not-->they vote, either following our vote or doing what they want.

This is not a democracy.

by the way this is a response to jessald's first comment.

Side: A myth
jessald(1915) Disputed
3 points

A republic is a kind of democracy.

From Webster's:

democracy: ...a government in which the supreme power is vested in the people and exercised by them directly or indirectly through a system of representation usually involving periodically held free elections

Side: A reality
2 points

Now, I'm going to contradict my previous votes here in order to clarify that the State of California actually has a decent "democratic" government.

Indeed, there is still a state congress, just like on the federal level. However, in the state constitution, people are allowed to vote to overturn laws effected by congress. People are also allowed to directly effect laws, and even amend the state constitution, through majority votes.

Yet, this creates a sometimes interesting power struggle, such as with the laws concerning gay marriage.

I wish the federal government was structured like this.

Side: A reality
3 points

I don't think this topic is worth debating. Democracy, whether you see it as a myth or reality, will never exist. We live in a republic. You see, a government controlled fully by the people would be chaotic and nearing anarchy. Just look at communism.

Side: A reality
NurJahan(9) Disputed
1 point

You said: " Democracy...will never exist". Well then, that's means it's a myth! What doesn't exist and we "people" believe in is a myth.

In America we have normally what we call a representative democracy. People vote for candidates which are their representatives. There's absolutely no government controlled by people, but those people select others who normally represent them... yet, do they represent the people, or serve their interests?!!!

Side: A myth
1 point

Allowing a majority vote to overturn (most) laws sounds like a good idea to me. Well... maybe not a simple majority... let's say 2/3's majority.

Allowing people to vote to amend the Constitution, however, I think would be going too far. I can easily imagine the political winds blowing south just long enough for people to do something dangerously foolish like voting away their freedom of speech.

Side: A reality
1 point

Obviously it's not a true democracy. Because a true democracy wouldn't work, there are to many stupid and religious people (if not one in the same) and our system is the best we can devise to keep mob rule from winning out; which it almost did in the last election...If you voted for Sarah Palin, hang yourself you dumbass; how irresponsible.

Side: A reality
1 point

A government can offer equal opportunity or equal outcome. The American democracy has chosen equal opportunity. Democracy is democracy. Economic systems are a whole different thing.

Side: A reality
NurJahan(9) Disputed
1 point

What equal opportunity you're speaking about? Power and money are in the hands of the few, i.e the elite not the majority of the people. Business corporations which are dominating everything, and controlling even politics decision-making?!

I am supporting the view that American democracy is a myth, 'cause it's a mere image shown to the world, whereas I don't believe that a true democracy exists in America.

Side: A myth