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If God doesn't exist, where did we come from? The classic comparison is to a watch in a desert; it obviously didn't just appear there. Just by probability, there is only a 1 in 10 to the 39,950th power chance that, even after billions of years, a single bacterium would evolve on its own, let alone a complex organism such as a human being. Even with this statistic, there is no explanation as to how the world could have begun without including a God factor, due to the fact that, to quote Newton, "an object at rest remains at rest until acted upon by a force." (I don't believe these are his exact words, but the point remains; it is impossible by the laws of nature for the world to have come into being without some sort of triggering force, and without God there is no place for such a force to exist.) As per all the questions that are of the genre, "If God exists, why does he do...?" There is one sweeping answer that may not be so convincing, may not be easy to accept, and may require a study of religion to comprehensively understand, and that is that who on earth are you, a human being, to question what God does? God is omnipotent and therefore knows exactly what to do, when to do it, and why to do it, while until the end of his life a human can live in denial of basic facts.
One more point, possibly the most important, although this is irrelevant to the debate, is that there is absolutely no risk in believing in God, and there are even benefits inherent to being religious, while there is ne obvious risk to denying God's existence. The idea is to look at the other side: If you are religious and God really doesn't exist then, although you may live a life with a false purpose, it makes no difference to you it because is no more false than any of the other purposes people believe they have; if, however, you deny God's existence and are wrong, you will likely lead a very empty life and be in deep trouble after you die.
There is a lot more to write on this subject and I would love to continue, but I do not have the capacity to anticipate all of the points that can be made against my position. I will therefore try as best as I could to respond to all those who disagree with me. I also must advise anyone that wants to see a clear work on this subject to read Lawrence Kelemen's "Permission to Believe"; this book responds to many of the doubts that people have about God and religion.
Last but not least, to all those who reply to my "thesis", guess which denomination of which religion I belong to.
If your central argument is the idea that God must exist because we must come from somewhere, I am still somewhat unsatisfied. How does the fact that we exist imply that religious texts, for example are accurate. And if a creator exists, what implies that that being is, as you say, "omnipotent and therefore knows exactly what to do, when to do it, and why to do it."
If some being exists that created the universe and life and such, where did that entity come from? The answer: We don't know. But not knowing isn't evidence either way, and it's certainly not evidence for any specific religion.
If some 'triggering force' existed, what are the odds, do you think, that it would be exactly as described in some book that was written a mere 2000 years ago when life has existed on this planet for billions of years?
In regards to the idea of 'risk,' I think that religion is actually one of the scariest things you can think about because of the reasons for morals. Scenario 1: As a religious person, you are holy and good so you can get into heaven. Not too bad, right? People do the right thing, and even if they are doing it because they are afraid of burning forever (literally FOREVER) it's ok.
Well imagine if the morals laid out in religious texts are false. Then people do the right thing because… it's the right thing to do. They aren't responding to scare tactics or being kind out of fear, they are being good because they want to make the world a better place.
Which world sounds better?
The only evidence you presented was that the universe must have had a triggering force. To sum it all up, my main issues are this.
1) An imaginary being does not solve the problem you raise. Any force would require some sort of triggering force, which would require it's own origin. If you say God can be eternal, why can't the universe be eternal without God? Where did God come from if everything needs to come from something?
2) Your evidence does not give any reason why any religious texts or beliefs should be followed. The fact that we don't know about the origins of life has no direct connection to man-made writings and teachings.
I hope this doesn't come off as a direct attack because I do want to have a real discussion about this and you seem quite reasonable. (I wrote this kind of late at night so I hope all my points got across effectively and respectfully)
As you acknowledged, most of my arguments were based on the fact that there are certain phenomena, such as the world that we live in, that seem inexplicable without the existence of God. That said, I don't believe I touched on anything about specific religions in my arguments; that is something I can discuss but at the same time the issue at hand is God's existence, which I believe, is more basic and pressing than religion itself. I would also like to keep this discussion as far away from religion as possible so as to lay a foundation for the arguments for and against each religion.
In regards to what you wrote about the universe being eternal, I would like to bring in the following two scientific theories about our universe's status. According to one theory, the universe comes into being, expands, implodes on itself, and starts from the beginning. This cycle would fit in with your point. According to the other theory, the universe has one starting point and has since that beginning been expanding, never to stop. Until recently scientists believed that either option was viable but scientific developments in the past 50 or so years seem to be leaning towards the constantly expanding theory. According to this, the world must have had a beginning. As to where God comes from, if He is eternal, He technically would not have come from anything.
As per your other point, I would like to bring in a concept that I believe ties in to both of your points and that is the idea that that we exist in a "physical" dimension and God exists in a "spiritual" dimension. According to this idea, the physical dimension is an existence within that of the spiritual dimension; a figment of God's imagination is the easiest way for me to describe it, although this is not such an accurate description. If such is the case a) God obviously knows and feels everything within the both physical and spiritual universes and b) Since time is relative it would only exist in our, physical, dimension, whereas in the spiritual dimension time would not exist in the first place. While I cannot directly prove this, I believe that this is a sensible way of explaining the concept of the God that exists in my other arguments that can address a few of the problems you bring up.
About "the book that was written a mere 2000 years ago," (which, I assume, is referring to the New Testament,) keep in mind that the Old Testament dates back to the revelation at sinai in approximately 1312 BCE and, if claims are true, has been in some form of existence for an eternity. As per scientific evidence showing that the world is billions of years old, could God not have created this planet with different isotopes of carbon at different levels, thus making it appear that the levels are arranged the way they are due to their age? If this is so, the world could have been created a "mere" 5775 years ago (I chose that number for a reason, by the way) and Bible could accurately describe that creation.
Lastly, your argument about risk has two main problems:
a) If God and religion do not exist, nothing you do matters in the long run, and therefore anything that might make the world a better place under the auspices of religion is pointless. One might as well become a selfish hedonist.
b) While having a false sense of purpose may also in the long run be pointless, at least there's a chance that it is not false. (I am writing this in respone to your paragraph beginning "Well imagine...," but I don't get the feeling that I understood what you were writing. If this is a good response fine; if not try to clarify that paragraph further.)
I know I have not yet proven any definite connection between God and religious texts and have tried to keep away from religion in this debate yet have used religious ideas in this argument; I will attempt to have a go at that if you feel there's still a problem.
First of all, I would like to point out that by asking "If God doesn't exist, where did we come from?" you are simply adding another step to the answer to the classic question "how did we get here." Science is in the process of discovering the origins of our universe (although I suspect we may never fully understand it). In response to your question, I have one thing to ask: where did your God come from? You argue that the universe could not have been created without a God, yet this still leaves the question of where God came from. You refuse to believe that the universe itself could have began without "divine intervention" but you seem to have no problem with accepting the fact that God was just always there; end of story.
Another point I would like to make is that you made no reference to where you got your probability argument from. If you want me to take you seriously don't just quote a number you found on AnswersInGenesis.com and use a reputable source.
Furthermore, your argument concerning Newton's First Law of Motion is, in my opinion, irrelevant and redundant. If you were to correctly employ logic in your reasoning, you basically argue that nothing should exist, because, using your logic (" it is impossible by the laws of nature for the world to have come into being without some sort of triggering force") then the existence of God is unreasonable as well. That is, of course, unless you have "faith."
Now, about your next argument. You state "who on earth are you, a human being, to question what God does? God is omnipotent and therefore knows exactly what to do, when to do it, and why to do it, while until the end of his life a human can live in denial of basic facts." Unfortunately this is not a live debate, so I will give you something to think about instead of respond to immediately. How do you know all of this? Perhaps the question we should be asking is who are you to assume that God is all of those things? It seems that religious people are rather skilled at knowing exactly what God wants, despite the fact that according to you he is an infinitely more advanced and omnipotent being. And, all of this is based on a few religious books such as the Qu'ran and the Bible ,which have both been translated and rewritten hundreds of times over thousands of years. Does that sound like a reliable source of information to you? You also state that " while until the end of his life a human can live in denial of basic facts." I would like to point out that religious people are infamous of doing this; they deny things science has proven and simply state "we must have faith."
In response to your point that you said is irrelevant to the debate, I agree for the most part. People can find enlightenment and comfort through religion and I am in no way saying that it is evil or useless. it is just that my morals lie in the truth, logic and the furthering of human knowledge, which religion (in my opinion) does nothing to propagate.
Finally, I hope that you find the time to reply to my reply (lol) and thank you for the book recommendation. I am curious as to the other side of the argument and like to see what my "opponents" believe and think in order to have more empathy and understanding. (Instead of just butting heads on the topic endlessly).
Thank you
By the way, if I would have to guess, I'd say that you belong to Christianity as you referred to God as "God" and not "Allah." Also, you may live in the Caribbean as your profile picture may suggest, and I know that the Caribbean is rife with Christianity.
Thanks for giving me time to think and respond; I haven't been on in a while.
I am writing this minutes after reading your response to my arguments in attempt to make up for the time you've had to wait for a reply so I hope my haste doesn't reflect in the quality of my arguments; if I have time I'll try to come up with a more thought-out response.
In your first paragraph, you disputed what I wrote about the lack of natural explanation of the universe's existence proving God's existence. I liked your point about science being the process of discovering the origins of our universe; however, the fact of the matter is, as you suspect, we may never fully understand it. There are many concepts in science that humans barely begin to understand. Take bonds, for example. While at fist glance one may think that it is simple to attach two items, at the molecular level there are invisible forces that, as much as we can measure, analyze, and harness them, we simply don't understand. Why do protons and electrons attract? While I know that the science of Quantum Physics is centered around this sort of question, will we ever be able to understand electromagnetism the way we understand why a sticky note stays on the wall? Somehow I doubt it. Assuming this one example is enough, I will move on, although if you want more examples there are plenty.
Once we realize that we will likely never find physical explanations for happenings in the physical universe, we must understand that there is something beyond physical at work. This is the part that seems to be turning many people off so I'll try to explain as I best could. Forget about the word God for a second. At this point, we are sitting in a physical world, that, when thought about, makes no sense. "How did it start?" is the question we must attempt to answer. At this point I'd like to throw in some Talmudic logic (I'm Jewish by the way): a question proves the answer. An explanation can be proven by lack of viable alternatives. This question proves that there is a force outside of the physical that envelops it, and that force would be a spiritual being; in other words, God. The key here is to realize that according to this answer, God is not a physical being that can be sensed by our bodies, rather He exists in a a different dimension ungoverned by physical limitation. The way I like to think of it is that God "imagines" us; not imagine in the literal sense of the word but that we are to God as a thought would be to us(. The last sentence is not a proven theology, rather a possibility as to what a being outside of the physical realm would be like).
With this answer I'd like to respond to your point about Newton's First Law. Newton's laws are laws of physics and would only affect physical beings; in a nonphysical realm there would be no such constraints. I know that this may not feel like a satisfying answer, but seeing as that entire point of what I have written so far is essentially that whatever created the physical world is neither within it nor constrained by its laws, there is no issue. (Again, you must keep in mind that the question proves the answer.)
I have more to write but I am out of time at the moment; I will try to continue as soon as possible.
The fact that things are happening is not proof for an all powerful being who can do whatever it wants. By your logic, how would you differ from an argument about the Christian God (saying 'look at the miracle of birth God is real') and say, Greek gods (look at this rain. Breathe this air. Feel that love. Gods are real!)
Science has plenty of explanations. Just because you aren't aware of them doesn't mean they don't exist.
Now the running away begins. you guys are so shallow, coming in here like you know science, when in fact you do not. They you have the audacity to attack those that are of the Christian faith. Well it was people like you are founders were fleeing from, you intolerant bigots are still here
Now the running away begins. you guys are so shallow, coming in here like you know science, when in fact you do not.
I never claimed to know all of science, and science doesn't claim to know anything. Science is centered around the goal of discovery, as we don't know everything yet.
They you have the audacity to attack those that are of the Christian faith.
When and how have I attacked Christians in a way that is inappropriate for a debate site?
you intolerant bigots are still here
Science is more recent than religion, and science is all about changing views to fit the most recent information. You clearly seem to be absolute in your own beliefs and unwilling to accept others' beliefs, which would make you intolerant.
Most everyone on this site has been rather respectful to you and tried to explain things logically, and most of your arguments have included insults. Just so you are aware.
you speak of miracles but have you seen the state of the world lately. War, famine, rampant poverty are all realities many people have to face.
Miracles I believe are not magic tricks such as separating the seas, miracles are derived from our ability to surpass ourselves, to prove to others that we are fundamentally good and selfless people. What someone calls a miracle can just be someone else helping that person such as helping homeless people get back on their feet, giving children the opportunity to receive an education and not have to live in ghettos where drugs and violence are what they face every day. Miracles come from us.
God has helped Christians by many ways not just christians the people who believe in the word of God. Miracles have happened by maybe coincidences but maybe just maybe it may be god up there speaking truth and miracles!😇👍
In my opinion as a Christian, I believe God exists. The only proof that I need to believe God exists is faith. You have to have faith in order to believe.
Yes, I know that is not scientific proof which many of you require in order to believe. Although how can you prove God doesn't exist? This debate is really opinion related.
If you want some extra proof you should watch the movie God's Not Dead.
Ok, you believe because you have faith. But… why do you have faith? It clearly isn't innate, otherwise everyone would be Christian. So… where did this faith originate?
If it came from like, your family or the way you were raised, then how can you say this is a legitimate belief? If your only reason is because someone else told you to have faith, how can that truly be your belief?
You can't prove God doesn't exist, but you can't prove Harry Potter doesn't exist either and people don't formulate their life morals, figure out how they treat others, and start wars based on Harry Potter…
Okay so you think that God doesn't exist because you cannot see him or touch him. Also my faith did not just come from my family telling me that to believe in God you must have faith, my parents didn't force me to be a Christian, I chose to be a Christian by reading the Bible and personally witnessing miracles myself.
If you can't prove God doesn't exist you can't prove your brain, cold, or darkness exists either. Because darkness is merely the absence of light, and cold is the absense of heat. You say that God isn't real because you can't see him or feel him. Well you can't feel cold, you are just feeling the absence of heat.
Okay so you think that God doesn't exist because you cannot see him or touch him.
Well, sort of. There are more ways of knowing if something exists than seeing/touching/experiencing in person. My argument is that there is no legitimate evidence of God existing, so there is no reason to believe in him.
Also my faith did not just come from my family telling me that to believe in God you must have faith, my parents didn't force me to be a Christian, I chose to be a Christian by reading the Bible and personally witnessing miracles myself.
I read the Bible, and I am not a Christian. Can you explain how reading the Bible made you believe in God? How does that differ from if you read another religious text, such as the Quran? Would that make you believe in the Islamic faith? Or what if you read a book like Harry Potter? Would that make you believe in Hogwarts?
And what miracles did you personally witness? A 'miracle' is a surprising and welcome event that is not explicable by natural or scientific laws and is therefore considered to be the work of a divine agency. So, what have you experienced that cannot be explained by science or the natural laws of nature? I and the rest of the scientific community will be excited to learn about just one of these world-changing events. So tell me about them!
If you can't prove God doesn't exist you can't prove your brain, cold, or darkness exists either.
First of all, anyone who has studied thermal science will tell you right away that there is no such thing as cold. Heat has to do with the speed of particles, and while something can be cold by comparison to something else, 'cold' is a meaningless word. If something is relatively 'cold,' it simply has less heat energy.
Of course I could prove my brain exists. You could run at me with a knife and jab open my head to check. Or we could do an x-ray. Or we could know that because all of the other members of my species have a brain, it is logical to assume that I have one. Or you can point out that because we see the exact, observable, testable results of a brain being in place, it is likely that I do have a brain.
I don't think you're darkness argument is extremely strong. Darkness, in our minds, is a mystery. When we find something that we can't see, unless we have prior knowledge of what is there, we cannot know what is there. 'Darkness' is what our brain shows us when it cannot find any light waves at a particular location. It's sort of your brain's way of saying "I don't know."
Because darkness is merely the absence of light, and cold is the absence of heat. You say that God isn't real because you can't see him or feel him. Well you can't feel cold, you are just feeling the absence of heat.
same way you're argument is not stupid, it is just contains the absence of logic.
sorry, had to.
the things you are referencing to prove your point are clear, but not comparable.
you observe darkness, which is the same as observing the absence of light
you observe 'cold', which is the same as observing the absence of heat
in science, cold and darkness are not physical properties or objects, they are concepts. heat is also a concept, but is also given a quantity as energy. cold is not energy, but is still a concept and it is certainly possible to say you are experiencing this concept. impulses are sent to your brain to relay the presence of cold which is the absence of heat, will you deny that? photons and the-absence-of-photons follow the same idea. while we only observe a specific band of frequencies of photons we call light, there are many other frequencies that we do not observe directly, but can prove the effects of.
we do not observe anything from a god, for whatever reason, nor do we receive any proof of a god, so many do not feel inclined to believe in one.
Man take off the blinders, I guess you never heard of any other religion besides Christianity and Secular Humanism. But there is a whole world full of religions out there . who told you about your faith of secular humanism, how can you say that your secular humanism is a legitimate belief .
Maybe you missed where he said he has a belief /faith in God so your rant about him not being able to prove the existence is moot and irrelevant, and is an attack on his beliefs.
Intolerant people like you have been the bane of humanity forever
Man take off the blinders, I guess you never heard of any other religion besides Christianity and Secular Humanism. But there is a whole world full of religions out there . who told you about your faith of secular humanism, how can you say that your secular humanism is a legitimate belief .
I have never identified myself on this site as a secular humanist. In this context, I was responding to a person that I knew was Christian, which is why the post was focused on Christianity.
Maybe you missed where he said he has a belief /faith in God so your rant about him not being able to prove the existence is moot and irrelevant, and is an attack on his beliefs.
He said he has a belief/faith in God, so I asked him why, which is a perfectly legitimate question to ask on a debate site. How were any of my responses offensive based on his original comment?
I only discussed existence in response to his question "How can you prove that God doesn't exist?" I did not 'rant' about it randomly, he brought it up first.
Intolerant people like you have been the bane of humanity forever
I am responding to what he says on a debate site. If you wish to respond to my points, that would show tolerance. Disagreeing with someone else's belief and notating that on a debate site is not intolerance.
You are a secular humanist it is obvious by your posts .
He did not bring it up. You did
You reply with incorrect intolerant attacks. You are the one making the positive claim, not the other poster here, so you prove your positive claim. You do not get to come here an berate people based on their beliefs
You are a secular humanist it is obvious by your posts .
You have been on this site for one day. To claim, based on a small portion of my views, that all of my views fit into a particular belief system is fallacious and and shows rash and illogical judgement. If you said "you seem to have secular humanist views," that would be more appropriate, but to just assume I follow all of the beliefs of secular humanism is somewhat problematic.
He did not bring it up. You did
Actually, no, I didn't. I will talk you through the interaction, because you appear to have misread it.
Originally, he said: I believe God exists. The only proof that I need to believe God exists is faith.
This lead to my response, which argued that all faith must have an origin. (why do you have faith? It clearly isn't innate, otherwise everyone would be Christian.)
I continued that response by giving a (related) example of a common way that faith can originate, and why I think that that claim is flawed. This is called counterargument, a common debate practice.
Then, also in his original post, he asked: Although how can you prove God doesn't exist?
My third paragraph was a response to this question. I did not introduce any major ideas that were not introduced by him originally. Everything I added had a logical connection. The only thing you seem to dislike is that I was disagreeing with the original post.
Once again, you are attacking me instead of responding to my argument. Do you wish to be on this site to attack people, or do you wish to discuss topics?
You reply with incorrect intolerant attacks.
First of all, to make that claim, you need to explain why my argument is incorrect. That is a fundamental aspect of debate.
Second, can you explain how my argument is intolerant? Are you defining intolerant as 'disagreeing?'
You are the one making the positive claim, not the other poster here, so you prove your positive claim.
Ok. So since you have now twice refused to define the term 'positive claim,' I shall do so for you. If you disagree with my definition, say so and then we can have a discussion.
A positive claim is when you say "I believe _ is true." In regards to the 'God' question, there are two options. "God is real" and "God is not real." Without any evidence, people should naturally be at a neutral position. If you wish to assert either claim, you must provide evidence.
While a lack of evidence is not support for either claim by any means, I personally believe that the lack of evidence suggests that it is unlikely that God exists. As I said in my response to the original comment here: We have no way to prove that Harry Potter isn't real, but I don't base my life off of Harry Potter anyways.
In this situation, since he made the original claim that "God is real," he is asserting a positive claim and has the burden of proof.
You do not get to come here an berate people based on their beliefs
How did I berate the original poster?
How is this not what you are doing?
Why is it wrong to discuss the things you believe on a debate site when they contradict what is believed by others?
It is obvious that you are a secular humanist, and it is obvious you are an intolerant bigot who is attacking Christians
It is also very obvious that you are not very well educated and that you are quite ignorant .
And yes you did bring it up, so stop with the lies. He never made the positive claim, you made the positive claim, a claim you have yet to back up with facts It is obvious you are trolling this guy, so stop being such an intolerant A%% and leave people alone
First of all the only thing I have to do with haters like you is call you on your lies and ignorance . You are the one making the positive claim here, so back it up junior
How so? If it's obvious, it shouldn't be hard for you to provide some explanation to back up that claim.
and it is obvious you are an intolerant bigot who is attacking Christians
How so? If it's obvious, it shouldn't be hard for you to provide some explanation to back up that claim.
It is also very obvious that you are not very well educated and that you are quite ignorant .
How so? If it's obvious, it shouldn't be hard for you to provide some explanation to back up that claim.
And yes you did bring it up, so stop with the lies.
How so? What ideas did I bring up that was inappropriate/not related to what he said?
He never made the positive claim
He said "I believe God exists." By definition, that is a positive claim. If you don't think that that is a positive claim, can you say why?
you made the positive claim, a claim you have yet to back up with facts
I have made my claim and backed it up with reasoning. If you think my reasoning is flawed, say why. I shall repeat my argument, which you chose not to respond to, as I think I articulated my position very well.
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A positive claim is when you say "I believe _ is true." In regards to the 'God' question, there are two options. "God is real" and "God is not real." Without any evidence, people should naturally be at a neutral position. If you wish to assert either claim, you must provide evidence.
While a lack of evidence is not support for either claim by any means, I personally believe that the lack of evidence suggests that it is unlikely that God exists. As I said in my response to the original comment here: We have no way to prove that Harry Potter isn't real, but I don't base my life off of Harry Potter anyways.
In this situation, since he made the original claim that "God is real," he is asserting a positive claim and has the burden of proof.
It is obvious you are trolling this guy, so stop being such an intolerant A%% and leave people alone
Can you explain why my argument is 'trolling' and how I am being 'intolerant?' You can make these claims all you wish, but without backing up your arguments, the only one who appears to be trolling is you.
First of all the only thing I have to do with haters like you is call you on your lies and ignorance .
Well, if you wish to do this effectively, you must explain why what I have said is a lie or is ignorant. Otherwise, you communicate nothing to me and you don't devalue my arguments in any way. If you truly wish to call me out on lies and ignorance, you aren't doing a very good job.
You are the one making the positive claim here, so back it up junior
I have very clearly backed up the reasoning of my disbelief in God.
Although I support your side of the argument, I believe that most of what you wrote does more to undermine our position than support it. Firstly, "faith" and "belief" are synonoyms, so your second and third sentences contain some warped logic. Secondly, whether God exists is a fact and facts are not opinion related.
Ironically, though, your mention of a movie, which was what originally what turned me off from your arguments, turned out to be, after I saw a synopsis of it, the one thing you mentioned that I do support. Although the movie doesnt quite seem to prove God's existence, it definitely puts the dispute into perspective.
Just because it is possible that something is real it isn't necessarily. The universe isn't infinitely large. It's possible that you have never existed and can't read. Does that mean you have never existed and can't read?
Everything has a beginning.I might be a beginner to debating yet i believe god is very real.Yes we might not see god but that is hardly a excuse to stop believing in god.It doesnot define who we are otherwise.if theres no god who are we? thnk about it.To prove my point we are seeing many strange things nowadays which scientists cant explain.So i say it again god is real.
It seems your primary argument (aside from your opinions) is that "we are seeing many strange things nowadays which scientists cant explain". What are you referring to specifically?
Yes we might not see god but that is hardly a excuse to stop believing in god.
Well, it certainly isn't a reason to start believing in God. If there is no evidence of something existing, then don't believe it. What you should do is say "I don't know," not just pick an unsupported explanation.
It doesnot define who we are otherwise.if theres no god who are we? thnk about it.
We are human. If there is no God, we should be moral/correct because it's the right thing to do, not because we will be punished for eternity if we don't. We should be good to eachother because that's how society will flourish, and it will make our lives good.
To prove my point we are seeing many strange things nowadays which scientists cant explain.
Like what? Please, do tell! This is exciting, since it has never happened before.
Cool you seem to be great at finding faults. Ok then lets see your first counterargument is that i should just say there is no god if i cant explain it. Well yes Being a human like you I can only prove the existence of god through many evidences. Also being a muslim i know that the Quran didnot just fall into existence. As we believe the Quran are the words of God. Yet look around you except for athiest every religion has a god. Because all of us believe one thing there must be a creator or else who could have created the earth itself the seas the sky itself!The creatures that scientists have shown to have lived before even mankind like dinosaurs those didnot just pop into existence.They were created by God.Lets see your next problem.ah! so you think if theres no God we would be moral and correct.Can you say me nowadays how many people are good and honest. its a very rare number. That is because most of us are moving away from the path that God has enligthened us with through many prophets.There is murder,treachery,betrayal and all other new kind of activities that have developed. Do you think if god havent intervened our lives through the teaching of prophets we would still be the same today. And the last one I wanted to say about one incident . It happened recently where a man died and couldnot be buried because there was a snake with him although the people were sure there was none at first. At last they had to tug the snake out to bury him. when the people were quiestioned they had no answer. strange even and about unexplained things by scientist you seem to say that scientist understand everything that is happening in the universe.
Also being a muslim i know that the Quran didnot just fall into existence.
How do you know it wasn't simply written by people, without divine inspiration?
Yet look around you except for athiest every religion has a god. Because all of us believe one thing there must be a creator or else who could have created the earth itself the seas the sky itself!
Ad populum fallacy: Just because many believe something, does not itself lend credibility to said belief.
The creatures that scientists have shown to have lived before even mankind like dinosaurs those didnot just pop into existence.
That does not prove that god created them, however.
so you think if theres no God we would be moral and correct.Can you say me nowadays how many people are good and honest. its a very rare number. That is because most of us are moving away from the path that God has enligthened us with through many prophets.
Global violence is at one of its lowest points in the entirety of human history. People are becoming less violent and more educated. I often hear the religious claim that people are getting worse, but where is your proof of this?
There is murder,treachery,betrayal and all other new kind of activities that have developed.
Each and every activity you are referring to has existed before any modern religion, such as your Islam, so how can you blame that on a lack of faith?
Do you think if god havent intervened our lives through the teaching of prophets we would still be the same today.
What do you mean? Things that are written down in books don't simply change unless a divine being ensures they stay the same.
At last they had to tug the snake out to bury him. when the people were quiestioned they had no answer. strange even and about unexplained things by scientist you see to say that scientist understand everything that is happening in the universe.*
What does that prove? This is the classic "I don't know, therefore god" argument. When it comes to physical explanations, absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.
Yes i cant prove that point the first one unless the day of judgement is tomorrow but i dont depend on others whether they believe it or not. i guess it depends on what u think. What i believe might be totally wrong to u and what i see around me just appears according to what i believe. It would be hard to convince u there is god unless we really saw for ourselves. But till then i believe its best to know deep in heart that god is present.
i have of miracles and UFOs and so have u. So what should we do ignore them or believe in them. Human decisions are very complex. In fact to ypu is your belief and to me mine. And anyway sorry for downvoting you.
Well yes Being a human like you I can only prove the existence of god through many evidences.
Ok, can you provide specific examples of that evidence so we can discuss that?
Also being a muslim i know that the Quran didnot just fall into existence. As we believe the Quran are the words of God.
How do you know the Quran did not just fall into existence? How can you be sure it wasn't written by humans, just like every other book before and since.
And why do you believe the Quran is the word of God? Is there any evidence outside of the Quran that suggests this?
Yet look around you except for athiest every religion has a god. Because all of us believe one thing there must be a creator
This is a fallacy: argumentum ad populum. You are assuming that just because a lot of people believe something, it must be true.
The creatures that scientists have shown to have lived before even mankind like dinosaurs those didnot just pop into existence.They were created by God.
These two events are not inherently connected. Why is the fact that dinosaurs existed directly connected to God? More importantly, how does that back up evidence in the Quran?
.Lets see your next problem.ah! so you think if theres no God we would be moral and correct.Can you say me nowadays how many people are good and honest. its a very rare number.
As GenericName said, worldwide violence is down. Can you provide a source that backs up this claim? Also, how do you define 'good and honest?' ALSO, can you show the differences from before Islam, when Islam was at it's height, and today?
That is because most of us are moving away from the path that God has enligthened us with through many prophets.
Correlation does not imply causation. By the same argument you are making here, I could say, "There have been advancements in medicine. More people are going away from God. As such, medicine is improving because more people are moving away from God."
through many prophets.
Like who? And how do you know they are prophets?
There is murder,treachery,betrayal and all other new kind of activities that have developed.
These have certainly been around since before the Quran and have existed throughout it's existence.
It happened recently where a man died and couldnot be buried because there was a snake with him although the people were sure there was none at first. At last they had to tug the snake out to bury him. when the people were quiestioned they had no answer.
Can you provide a source so I can learn more about this incident?
you seem to say that scientist understand everything that is happening in the universe.
I absolutely do not claim that scientists understand everything that is happening in the universe. Only that with enough time and enough advancements in technology, we have the potential to understand everything.
You might say that where was God when there was war or famine.
Well if god did show himself do you believe everyone would become a believer?
Alas!Most people might be a believer in the morning and a non-believer at night.
God created us and intends to test whether we can stay faithful .
And how do I know that the Quran wasn't hand written?
Well for all I know It has been said for generations what the Quran was and trust me I used to ask this myself before. But how did people who lived in that time during the 7th century know of science and technology unless it was truly revealed by God. Allah says in one Surat(Surat Ar Rahman):
And the stars and trees prostrate.
And the heaven He raised and imposed the balance
That you not transgress within the balance.
And establish weight in justice and do not make deficient the balance.
Therein is fruit and palm trees having sheaths [of dates]
And grain having husks and scented plants.
So which of the favors of your Lord would you deny?
He created man from clay like [that of] pottery.
And He created the jinn from a smokeless flame of fire.
So which of the favors of your Lord would you deny?
[He is] Lord of the two sunrises and Lord of the two sunsets.
So which of the favors of your Lord would you deny?
He released the two seas, meeting [side by side];
Between them is a barrier [so] neither of them transgresses.
So which of the favors of your Lord would you deny?
From both of them emerge pearl and coral.
So which of the favors of your Lord would you deny?
And to Him belong the ships [with sails] elevated in the sea like mountains.
So which of the favors of your Lord would you deny?
Everyone upon the earth will perish,
And there will remain the Face of your Lord, Owner of Majesty and Honor.
So which of the favors of your Lord would you deny?
Whoever is within the heavens and earth asks Him; every day He is bringing about a matter.
So which of the favors of your Lord would you deny?
We will attend to you, O prominent beings.
So which of the favors of your Lord would you deny?
O company of jinn and mankind, if you are able to pass beyond the regions of the heavens and the earth, then pass. You will not pass except by authority [from Allah ].
So which of the favors of your Lord would you deny?
There will be sent upon you a flame of fire and smoke, and you will not defend yourselves.
So which of the favors of your Lord would you deny?
And when the heaven is split open and becomes rose-colored like oil -
So which of the favors of your Lord would you deny? -
Then on that Day none will be asked about his sin among men or jinn.
So which of the favors of your Lord would you deny?
The criminals will be known by their marks, and they will be seized by the forelocks and the feet.
So which of the favors of your Lord would you deny?
This is Hell, which the criminals deny.
They will go around between it and scalding water, heated [to the utmost degree].
So which of the favors of your Lord would you deny?
But for he who has feared the position of his Lord are two gardens -
So which of the favors of your Lord would you deny? -
Having [spreading] branches.
So which of the favors of your Lord would you deny?
In both of them are two springs, flowing.
So which of the favors of your Lord would you deny?
In both of them are of every fruit, two kinds.
So which of the favors of your Lord would you deny?
[They are] reclining on beds whose linings are of silk brocade, and the fruit of the two gardens is hanging low.
So which of the favors of your Lord would you deny?
In them are women limiting [their] glances, untouched before them by man or jinni -
So which of the favors of your Lord would you deny? -
As if they were rubies and coral.
So which of the favors of your Lord would you deny?
Is the reward for good [anything] but good?
So which of the favors of your Lord would you deny?
And below them both [in excellence] are two [other] gardens -
So which of the favors of your Lord would you deny? -
Dark green [in color].
So which of the favors of your Lord would you deny?
In both of them are two springs, spouting.
So which of the favors of your Lord would you deny?
In both of them are fruit and palm trees and pomegranates.
So which of the favors of your Lord would you deny?
In them are good and beautiful women -
So which of the favors of your Lord would you deny? -
Fair ones reserved in pavilions -
So which of the favors of your Lord would you deny? -
Untouched before them by man or jinni -
So which of the favors of your Lord would you deny? -
Reclining on green cushions and beautiful fine carpets.
So which of the favors of your Lord would you deny?
Blessed is the name of your Lord, Owner of Majesty and Honor.
These are the words in the Quran in that Surat and where Allah asks us to deny any of his creations which is not possible.
You are making the positive claim (God exists) so you have the burden of proof here.
If God did show himself, there would be evidence of his existence, so yes, more people would be religious. If you could give me viable proof, my belief would change.
I'm not sure what point you are trying to make with the passages you stated. Can you clarify?
I guess i feel the pressure. And you don't have to change your belief . I guess you were right from the first. We cannot prove God exists or not. It is up to what we were taught .
We just believe what we want to believe. In the passage I gave we think Allah Has asked mankind whether we can deny his creation and his existence. As a Muslim I was awed from the first time i read it. I have no proof to give except my merry words. Who knows you might be right. We won't be sure until we see God and till then I trust my faith.
Obviously everything is not fiction they are facts.The Ark of Noah is real and its story is there both in the bible and the Quran. I have seen in another debate people calling Muhammad(s.a.w) a mass murderer when they have no proof to show it! You see one continues to believe what their forefathers believed which is why you can't convert a person to another religion in a day. Believing in God gives us a motive to live, the weaker human can believe that there is a more powerful being(God) than the richer and powerful human. Why do you think idol-ism started that's because people coudnot stand the thought that there is no one to protect them. The ancient Egyptians made so many god for themselves like the Romans and the Greeks. That did not help them though. People believe that Shaytan(devil) is god when we all know that he is the false one and the liar. See how beliefs vary among us! See that's we continue to believe whether its fiction or false belief. May Allah show us the right path.
Ummm..lets see yes I think it's good that anyone can believe whatever they want to believe. As a good Muslim I wouldn't force people to go against what they believe. Live and let live.
The Ark of Noah is real and its story is there both in the bible and the Quran.
While there might have been a massive flood at some point, it is impossible that it exists exactly as it does in the Bible. Bill Nye explains why better than I could: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F4OhXQTMOEc
If the story exists in both books, that a) does not validate everything else in each book and b) wouldn't that mean that you believe in the Quran and the Bible?
You see one continues to believe what their forefathers believed which is why you can't convert a person to another religion in a day.
True, but if you only believe what your 'forefathers' told you and do not deviate from it, then you aren't thinking for yourself.
Believing in God gives us a motive to live, the weaker human can believe that there is a more powerful being(God) than the richer and powerful human. Why do you think idol-ism started that's because people coudnot stand the thought that there is no one to protect them. The ancient Egyptians made so many god for themselves like the Romans and the Greeks. That did not help them though.
That may also be true, but that in no way is proof of God. Just because something can be good doesn't mean it's real.
People believe that Shaytan(devil) is god when we all know that he is the false one and the liar.
How do you know that the devil exists? Or does not exist? Or exists and is a false god? What is your argument for that? And why can you apply that argument to only the devil?
See how beliefs vary among us!
Again, not proof for any God.
See that's we continue to believe whether its fiction or false belief. May Allah show us the right path.
If you don't know for sure, doesn't it make sense to not commit to any belief until you learn more? Lack of evidence isn't proof to just pick any belief, it means that you should gain more evidence.
Ummm..lets see yes I think it's good that anyone can believe whatever they want to believe.
But what about beliefs that lead to dangerous things? For example, many religious people ignore scientific evidence of climate change, which may lead to the death of millions of animal species and potentially billions of lives.
Live and let live.
The problem is when someone's beliefs hurt others. For example, the people that commit acts of terrorism or discrimination against groups (such as homosexuals) are hurting others because of their beliefs. If their beliefs are illogical, then they are hurting others based on illogical beliefs. To help those people, it makes sense to try and correct the behavior of those that are in the wrong.
For starters I don't believe in the Bible only the Quran and that's it.I hope you think twice before you say that again. Anyway starting with the last point
The problem is when someone's beliefs hurt others.
Yup that's the problem right I believe that myself because I came across a debate where the debaters were insulting Muhammed(s.a.w) like nothing just because they believe differently than us Muslims.It pained me a lot to read those but as you said: then they are hurting others based on illogical beliefs.
I can't fix their disbelief nor can i support them because I don't think the same way!The same thing here that is if it was so easy to show people their deeds humans won't have been the same there would be no atheists or any other kind of dishonest activities! If you catch a terrorist would you slap the person to see the right way! No maybe because you can't trust yourself to change a person belief .
many religious people
What kind of religious people are you talking about? What i meant is that I don't want to interfere what someone else believes if I want to carry my head safely home the next day.And what kind of beliefs are you talking about please specify....
Lack of evidence isn't proof to just pick any belief, it means that you should gain more evidence.
I should gain more evidence right again but what if there is nothing to grab and every attempt is futile what do you then? Ask god for mercy like at the very last moment before death like the Egyptian king did when he realized that whatever Moses said about God was right!but in the future maybe we will get more of the evidence.
Again, not proof for any God.
I meant that different people believe in different Gods but all humans apart from atheists believe there is god although we see it differently...
How do you know that the devil exists?
I thought that there is always a bad side that comes on against a good side. Otherwise it's just not balanced there can't only be a good side. And I pardon me I don't apply any argument for or against shaytan. He is a devil in my eyes and that's it. People who believe he is a god have long gone astray.
That may also be true, but that in no way is proof of God. Just because something can be good doesn't mean it's real.
What I believe is that we are set in motion by god because there must be something who is controlling and looking over us otherwise we are like a person who is floating on endless waters because we can't have been just thrown into existence out of no where. Although I have heard of scientist suggesting that living things might have arrived on earth on a meteor (quite awkward)...
Lastly I can think for myself thank you and I quite sure about Noah's ark no matter what!
Is that true now? So the Bible does contain parts of the Quran....for one thing the Bible was once the words of God when Jesus was alive but later when the Quran was revealed Allah commanded mankind to abandon the bible and follow the teaching of the Quran. So it's nothing surprising that the bible has a few words of the Quran. True indirectly it would mean believing in the bible but I don't and won't have anything to do with it. The Quran teaches me the path and I don't care on how many other books have verses of the Quran in them.
Yes, what determines fate? Science, I think not. Science does not know when a persons number is up. Doctors and no member of the scientific community can,t tell you why somebody with barely a scratch dies and others continue to live despite all their complications. God is the only answer that works and even doctors trained by science will tell you it is out of their hands.
Depends on your definition of God. If you think of God as Western religions define him, then no God doesn't exist. There is no person type thing that created the world in 7 days or whatever and will send you to Hell if you displease him.
My definition of God, being Hindu, is greatly different. God isn't a him or a her but an omnipresent force that has existed before time. It didn't create the world, and doesn't decide anything about the world. It exists inside of everything; me, you, Gandhi, Hitler, a tree, a rock, space, etc.
Scientists call it consciousness. Scientists know consciousness exists, so you can say my definition of god is wrong. You may argue that rocks don't have consciousness, but once you read the link you will have a new outlook on consciousness.
I know my definition of God isn't what many of you are thinking of,but if you look deeply God in all of the theistic religions is just a manifestation of consciousness. In Hinduism there aren't "many Gods" there is one God that is the consciousness in every thing on Earth.
I never said that god does not exist. Humanity has not proven god(s) exists, nor have we disproven that god(s) exist. As a "Pragmatic Agnostic" (I prefer referring to it as Hard line Agnosticism), I do not believe that humanity is capable (currently, at least) of proving or disproving that god(s) exist.
As for Jesus, I do not believe that he was divine, nor do I believe that he was a divinely inspired prophet, though I don't believe that belief in Christ is integral in theism (obviously).
I believe in God but the way you are acting, is not the way a Christian would act. A true Christian wouldn't discriminate and bash other people's religions. Why do you think that people have started hating Christians? Because they are the ones discriminating other people's religions. I have many friends who are Atheists and yet do I bash their belief? No, I do no such thing as that is not right.
there are philosophers who want to draw an ontological distinction between existence and reality. Take for example Russell: in The Problems of Philosophy, Russell defines existence as the set of all things that can be located in space in time; however, he claims that there are also Universals, which have reality or subsist, but are not spatiotemporally located.
Similarly, you might use an existence-reality distinction to talk about fictional mental content, e.g. The content of my thoughts about unicorns is in a sense real, insofar as those thoughts are intentional mental states, that I actually in fact have, about unicorns, but the content of my thoughts about unicorns doesn't exist, insofar as those intentional properties fail to refer to anything in the real world.
Questions for Christians on their belief of a deity, if you can answer them intellectually go ahead, I would love to hear your response.
Whose prayers does God answer? And if it's ultimately His Will, why bother praying?
If your child were dying, and I hope that never happens, would just pray for them or would you take them to a doctor? And if you'd do both, which one do you think has more of an impact?
If you have an exam coming up, what would contribute more to a higher score: Prayer or more studying?
What matters to God more: The quantity of people praying or the quality of their prayers? If quantity matters, shouldn't the most popular team always win the Super Bowl? If quality matters, why do people you love sometimes die no matter what you do?
What do you make of Muslims who think the Koran is the true holy book? Are they wrong? Have you read the Koran? Why do you dismiss them so easily?
Why would God make people gay and then punish them for being gay?
In reality, you are right about prayer; God, being omnipotent, has no real need for prayer in regard to decision-making. However, there are a few things to keep in mind about prayer and religion before jumping to conclusions:
Prayer is telling God what you want (as I mentioned before God's omnipotency allows him to know what we need and what is good for us); prayer is a way of demonstrating our belief in not just God's existence but in the fact that he has the power to do what we want and need. For example, if one is sick and prays to God, they are not begging God to heal them; rather they are accepting the fact that if it is best for them to be healed they will be healed and if it is not to be than it is because that is what is best for them. The result is that the patient becomes more accepting of God's power; a "side effect" is that he becomes more worthy of living.(I do have more to write on this subject and will try to pick this up again soon.)
In regards to gays, please answer the following question for me: Men and women can be differentiated between due to certain phyiscal characteristics that they have. If you would like to look at it through a racism perspective, so can blacks and whites. There is one group of people that claim to have characteristics that make them different but have no biological, herditary, or physical features that set them apart. What about a person makes them gay?
If you can choose to be gay, and it is easy, care to demonstrate? Become gay for a week or something. Don't worry, you'll be able to change back and I'm sure God will understand because you'll finally be able to settle this debate.
When did you choose to be straight?
You are aware that there is exactly 0 evidence that supports this claim, right? If there is, please provide it.
Why would anyone choose to be gay in this day and age? When people like you exist who say that homosexuality is sinful?
People can't choose their preferences. Try picking which food tastes the best to you. Or 'choosing' anything else that your brain is naturally attracted to.
You are right that people don't consciously choose to be gay or straight, however you cannot deny that each one is created with the ability to act like the other.
you cannot deny that each one is created with the ability to act like the other.
Do you mean to say that a straight person could choose to make themselves sexually turned on enough by a person of the same gender?
And if you refer only to actions, like a straight male could have sex with another man, it would be true, but can you say what point you are making there? Just trying to better understand your argument before I respond.
Sorry for the long wait; what I meant was that a while someone may claim to be a gay person, it is not because their bodies are oriented in a way that makes them distinguishable from a straight person and that therefore being gay would be an orientation of the mind rather than the body.
You are a stupid boy if you think gay people choose to be gay. Please explain why people would choose to be gay in places like the Middle East where they are killed for being gay. Why would they choose a life of persecution? It's far from easy to be gay even in western countries. For example in the in the UK 1/6 people believe that gays should be persecuted. The idea that gay people choose to be gay is retarded. You are a fine example of why I am justified in hating Christians. You are scum.
You cannot choose what gender you are attracted to. You could not have chosen to have been attracted to the same gender could you? It is the same for gays in the way that they could not choose to be attracted to the opposite gender. You are attracted to who you are attracted to and it is not a choice.
Who do you know that is born in places, such as Saudi Arabia, where being gay is both socially and legally unaccepted, that is gay and persecuted for it?
The fact is you do get gay people in Middle Eastern countries who end up being killed because of it. Just search 'ISIS' with 'gay' on Google. Or search 'Gay executions Iran'.
Obviously I don't know them as I don't live in a country like that.
Ok, so the war that has raged on for years. Is god real? For centuries humans have relied on the idea of a greater being than ourselves. Ancient paintings, writing prove this. But, weird things happen all around us EVERY DAY the fact that the earth is at an exact position for it to keep at a temperature for us to neither burn or become ice cubes. The fibbonachi sequence is quite amazing. To say it is just a coincidence is ridiculous. I do not believe in the bearded god that is described in various places. Maybe in a superior consciousness.
But, weird things happen all around us EVERY DAY the fact that the earth is at an exact position for it to keep at a temperature for us to neither burn or become ice cubes.
That is patently false. The Earth lies within a rather large (relatively) range necessary to support life. This claim you made is one that is repeated often and made out of ignorance.
I firmly believe that it's the fear of sin and fear of loss that’s existing in a physical form or in the form of an idol which is given the term called GOD. If someone closely observes into the fathom of Indian mythology and read "Mahabharatam" which is the background of how and why one started worshiping, for those who don't know the story let me tell you at a glance:
Nakula and Sahadeva are the sons of Pandu,
When Pandu is on the death pier he calls his sons Nakula and Sahadeva and asks them to eat his pinkies, after they follow his suite they will get the power to foresight and can visualize the whole KURUKSHETRA war, meanwhile Lord Krishna who got the information regarding this walks up to these young people and throws a nemesis at them that if they reveal what they knew out of their foresight their skulls will go into pieces. Burning in rage Nakula and Sahadeva shot by throwing a curse to Krishna, that their dead bodies should be burnt on his heart. Taken aback Krishna promised to accompany them at the KURUKSHETRA as the nemesis once thrown can't be taken back" this is a small part which most of the mythological books will not emphasize.
The points I would like to draw in relevance with the context of the debating topic are as follows:
1. Lord Krishna who is the almighty is worried about the physical form which he is in and that is one of the utmost reasons for him be biased with the PANDAVAS, 'GOD' is more beyond its verbal form, like a word that refers to pupil who take tutelage or educate to tear apart the innocence but instead in the above context the form is carrying torch for his own physical form rather than look at the survival of many others lives. Nakula and Sahadeva started to worship Krishna because of their fear of loss of their lives and the vice-versa
2. On a vis-a-vis look at your mother, if you are trying to touch a hot body, she picks up the reflexes more fast than our reflexes update us. That is also indeed from the fear of loss, fear of losing her own blood. The thesis of godliness says that all are equal, in that case why should there be a division into casts and sub-casts.
Well, the very old saying, depending on the quality of bread the division is done. But GOD has to be somebody who will be able to foresee things, If he foresighted that the division will create a lot of turmoil in a common man's life he (the form) should not encourage it.
For example:
Dr. B. R. Ambedkar the writer of the Indian Constitution was a bit biased towards the lower sections of the society for their uplift, he had a clear foresight that a span of decade will help them get a better quality of life and bread, and the laws can be amended once the span is finished. Unfortunately, no such amendments are done.
Here from this I would like to emphasize two points:
a) The foresight of Ambedkar helped a lot to the country of India and his prolific penning down of constitution of India would symbolize the thesis of godliness.
b) Also excelling at the point given helps you define rules and regulations. Society and stature can't buy peace.
Rather than painting the towns in red on occasions of festival, it would be helpful if we paint the toilets of schools and make kids get the difference between myth and fact.
If GOD is a physical form then YES, it’s your mother who gave you birth, YES! your father who made you sit on his back and walked the roads for you instead. The teacher who taught you how to look at life
If GOD means just an idol, stagnant and motionless in the sanctum sanctorum of a temple then definitely it’s the other side of the coin.
To date there is no empirical, measurable, testable, nor observable evidence of a god. There is nothing that can be verified through the scientific method that leads us to conclude that a god exists or had any part in our existence. I cannot say god doesn't exist 100% but there is literally no reason to believe that one does. And if one does it hasnt made any effort to make itself known to us in any tangible, meaningful way.