CreateDebate is a social debate community built around ideas, discussion and democracy.
If this is your first time checking out a debate, here are some quick tips to help get you started:
Arguments with the highest score are displayed first.
Argument replies (both in favor and in opposition) are displayed below the original argument.
To follow along, you may find it helpful to show and hide the replies displayed below each argument.
To vote for an argument, use these icons:
You have the power to cast exactly one vote (either up or down) for each argument.
Once you vote, the icon will become grayed out and the argument's score will change.
Yes, you can change your vote.
Debate scores, side scores and tag scores are automatically calculated by an algorithm that primarily takes argument scores into account.
All scores are updated in real-time.
To learn more about the CreateDebate scoring system, check out the FAQ.
When you are ready to voice your opinion, use the Add Argument button to create an argument.
If you would like to address an existing argument, use the Support and Dispute link within that argument to create a new reply.
First, the premise presented by Hobby Lobby is false. They falsely label contraceptives (4 out of 20) as abortifacients. The four abortifacients, which are really contraceptives, are Plan B, Ella, Mirena, and ParaGard (an IUD). http://goo.gl/Gu4bbk
Second, the company invests in contraceptives and abortifacients. Their employee 401(k) plan held more than $73 million in mutual funds with investments in companies that produce contraceptive pills, IUDs, and drugs commonly used in abortions. JUST TO BE CLEAR, of course it doesn't mean Hobby Lobby invests in XYZ; their employees do with their 401(k) and Hobby Lobby does match the contribution.
I simply point out this fact because if this company is all about Christian values, why would they allow their employees to invest in companies that manufacture items that goes against company values? http://goo.gl/4KFS0K
Third, they import items from China. Did they forget about China's crackdown on freedom of religion, one-child policy, and other violations of human rights? http://goo.gl/yeo8Sg
Because if they do stop the people from investing wherever they please, then its pushing the religion down the employee's throat. That wont sit right with anyone.
I think the contraceptive case is different because they aren't forcing you to d what they want, they just don't want to be a part of it.
"Because if they do stop the people from investing wherever they please, then its pushing the religion down the employee's throat. That wont sit right with anyone."
You have to take everything into account to see the hypocrisy and inconsistency of their position. It's as though they're saying, "Our company opposes providing XYZ to employees via their health plan because it goes against our core beliefs. We oppose it so much we've taken it to SCOTUS. However, if employees wish to invest in companies that produce XYZ, it's perfectly fine with us."
It makes zero sense. Their founders are vehemently against XYZ, but when it's categorized in the investment category, suddenly it's okay?
"I think the contraceptive case is different because they aren't forcing you to d what they want, they just don't want to be a part of it."
They were already including 16 out of 20 contraceptives in their health care plan. The final 4 contraceptives should've been the same. As I said before, their premise is purposely incorrect.
for those of you who think morality and business does not have anything to with each other, warren buffet (regarded as the greatest investor) never invested in a tobacco relate d co. because he finds they are dangerous to public health (which they are) and hence against moral principles.
It is not a slippery slope fallacy. Please please please stop with the fallacy shot that you don't understand. I'm not saying that one thing will lead to another.
Yes, you can choose who to screw and to do it with contraceptives or not. But as a boss it is none of my business therefore I shouldn't have to do it. I have a tattoo, I played for it, not my boss
Should an employer withhold paying their employee since their employee might use the money on an abortion?
I think it is fine that we give tax benefits to employers for putting money towards health-care, but the employee should have the direction over their insurance + care.
This is one extra level of separation so it is "ok". With healthcare they are paying money to the insurance who then pays for contraception. With the investments they are putting money in a fund that is investing in a company that is making money of contraception. The first only has 1 extra layer, but the second has 2 extra layers. See? No moral problem.
Me either, but that would acknowledge that they aren't actually paying for contraception when they pay for healthcare, so my money is on the claim that it is far too complicated to avoid investing in those companies and that they are known for far more than just contraception.
No Obama basically force fed and rammed through a law which made businesses provide their workers with health care and contraceptives are a part of that.
So if someone wants to insert a bomb inside their body and stand next to me, I would have no say in the matter? That's nice to know.
Saying it's a right is so misleading. When a company pays for the contraception of their employees, it's considered an added benefit of the job. I understand that women should be able to acquire contraception and I fully support it. But to twist that into the notion that companies must pay for contraception for their employees is so misguided.
Wait hold up. So your new thing is to just cite logical fallacies and refuse to address my point? What I said wasn't a slippery slope fallacy, I wasn't saying contraception would lead to terrorism. I'm illustrating that there is a hole in your "my body, my choice, the end" mantra with an example.
Incorrect. You used a fallacy when you said I support bombing this. Contraception is not mass terrorism. I know its too much for you to handle with your religion malfunction, but contraception is not terrorism and you were way out of line accusing me of supporting that. It is a slippery slope fallacy to say that supporting a womans right to contraception equals terrorism especially when it is the antichoice movement is the one committing acts of terrorism. I dont support a free for all, but I dont support a ban either. It is also a strawman fallacy what you said and I could play the same game as you, but Im an adult, so I shall behave as such. You young man need to not bear false witness per the Lords command in the Holy Bible. Smooches, sonny boy. ;)
Incorrect. You used a fallacy when you said I support bombing this. Contraception is not mass terrorism. I know its too much for you to handle with your religion malfunction, but contraception is not terrorism and you were way out of line accusing me of supporting that. It is a slippery slope fallacy to say that supporting a womans right to contraception equals terrorism especially when it is the antichoice movement is the one committing acts of terrorism. I dont support a free for all, but I dont support a ban either.
Right. I was explaining how your "my body, my choice" policy is flawed. I never said you supported terrorism, but feel free to use a strawman fallacy of your own and distort. By the way, you've still blatantly ignored the meat of my argument, so I'll re-copy it here:
Saying it's a right is so misleading. When a company pays for the contraception of their employees, it's considered an added benefit of the job. I understand that women should be able to acquire contraception and I fully support it. But to twist that into the notion that companies must pay for contraception for their employees is so misguided.
You young man need to not bear false witness per the Lords command in the Holy Bible. Smooches, sonny boy. ;)
The issue is you telling people what to do with their bodies. That is very wrong. The choice to prevent a pregnancy hurts no one and is a personal right. It does not equal terrorism like you said.
I'm not saying what people can do with their bodies! I'm supporting a company that chooses not to provide contraceptive benefits! They can do whatever they want with their bodies!
Yeah and I'm saying that's exactly how it should be! You just agreed with me. Lol Hobby Lobby is just saying they won't give it to you as a benefit, you pay for it yourself.
Congrats, you worked your way out of the barbed wire.
Rape victims definitely receive all treatment they need if they bring their situation to attention (and if they don't for some reason, changes need to be made).
As for women who can't afford it, I always have some suspicions. First of all, they have a job. This certainly should be able to cover the cost of birth control if need be. Secondly, there is a risk-free way to avoid accidentally having a baby! Seriously, if money is so tight that you can't afford to pay $20 a month for birth control (that was definitely an estimate, I'm sure it varies), then maybe you should consider other options...
I dont agree with you. Women on Medicaid have the same rights as rich women. Women should not be forced to give birth or be pregnant. Forced birth is violence against women.
This is so ridiculous... so if a woman has sex 50 times a day and requires contraceptives every time, costing hundreds of dollars, their employer is just supposed to shell out the money?
By saying every woman has a right to not be pregnant, that's what you're proposing.
Strawman fallacy. I never said that. I just said that women have the right to reap the rewards of their labor.Im not working for free. If I work, I should be paid. Saying that low income women should be forced to give birth is wrong, and no one has sex that often.
Okay you understand we're still talking about Hobby Lobby employees right? They are getting paid. Enough to afford contraceptives... so I don't see what the problem is...
The fact that no one should be forced to be pregnant due to health concerns is enough proof. That's whats wrong with conservatives. You are all about liberty unless someone disagrees with you, and I'm not saying liberals are any better. There are certain inherent attributes that God put into the universe. God designed everything. Its wrong to force someone to give birth against their will. That's why I used Plan B after I was raped. I did not want to have a baby by my rapist. The anticontraceptive movement had me convinced that I had killed a baby when I had not. Your body is where you should feel the most safe, but its sad to say that it often is not. When your body is violated, you have nowhere to run and escape the pain. Contraception is defined as the prevention of conception (the fertilization of the egg), and while all contraception has risks including condoms, it is less risky due to childbirth. Pregnancy carries risks to the health of the mother, so why not prevent pregnancy in the first place. The abortion rate would be much higher without it, so you would think prolifers would be all over that. You would think prolifers would do unto others as they would do unto themselves, but they do not. Do you know what it would have been like to be forced to birth a baby by either of my rapists? Good God, think about how your actions affect other people. With contraception, there is nothing, I repeat nothing, to abort. Please think about how being forced to give birth would impact a woman. Do unto others.
Okay I feel like this is getting silly. Believe me, I am not against contraception. I believe it should be widely available and inexpensive. But I don't understand why you think it should be provided by employers. I really don't. They hire individuals to come in for specific hours in the day to do work. I think their personal life is completely separate from this duty. At this point, there's not much more I can say, so I guess we can agree to disagree.
Im not trying to guilt trip you at all, and I can agree to that. I figured you deserve a logical explanation as to why I feel so strongly. I bet we can agree on something else.
I know its too much for you to handle with your religion malfunction
This is a strawman fallacy. A religion malfunction has nothing to do with the debate and is just used to insult your opponent to demonstrate his position is wrong because it is based on a bad premise.
Saying someone has a religious malfunction is nowhere near merely disagreeing with them. You brought up something that is off topic (religious malfunction) that only served to show that whoever had this malfunction must be wrong because of the malfunction.
Fallacy fallacy.
What are you talking about? I wasn't saying that you were right or wrong about the overall topic. You claimed you made no fallacy. I explained where you did. I never claimed that you making a fallacy invalidated your claim.
I did not make a fallacy. Just because I dont share your belief doesnt mean Im wrong. It just means that Im prochoice and that I support someones right to their body. This debate is properly about whether Hobby Lobby is hypocritical and they are because they violate contraceptive rights while investing in contraception and abortion products. That is what I will debate on this post.
I explained clearly that you did. You haven't addressed what I said.
Just because I dont share your belief doesnt mean Im wrong.
You don't know what I believe. I didn't say you were wrong about contraception.
It just means that Im prochoice and that I support someones right to their body.
That has nothing to do with bringing up a religious malfunction.
This debate is properly about whether Hobby Lobby is hypocritical and they are because they violate contraceptive rights while investing in contraception and abortion products. That is what I will debate on this post.
Ok, but claiming you didn't make a fallacy doesn't fall into that category, so I didn't realize it was off limits to point out how you were wrong.
Most arguments against contraception are religious in nature and support the circular reasoning fallacy. Its true because I believe it, and I believe it because its true goes around and around in circles. You cant just use the belief card and expect people to do what you want without a logical good reason. If I want someone to do something, I have no right to say "because I said so" because Im not God.
Most arguments against contraception are religious in nature
That doesn't mean that everyone who opposes contraception has a religious viewpoint. Plus, for this particular issue the reasoning has been shifted to a fiscal reasoning because people aren't sure why it needs to be paid for, but are fine with it being provided. It is still probably the majority of the arguments, but less so than in other contraception arguments. But, either way you can't assume that Troy said anything wrong because he happens to be on the side of the religious nutballs.
and support the circular reasoning fallacy. Its true because I believe it, and I believe it because its true goes around and around in circles. You cant just use the belief card and expect people to do what you want without a logical good reason. If I want someone to do something, I have no right to say "because I said so" because Im not God.
This decision does not affect your ability to get contraception. I am allowed to own a car, but it isn't reasonable to suggest you pay for it. Some people solely disagree on the payment issue. People will agree that women should be allowed to use contraception, but not agree on who pays the bill. Figuring out who pays for what is not a rights issue.
Having contraception available for purchasing is a right, and has been opposed by religious people. Having contraception provided to you free of charge is not a right.
No they are not. As a family company they feel that plan B is wrong and they shouldn't have to pay for it. It's a right they should have in this country. That's why they won in court. I may not agree with the other comments here but that is for another debate. And since this is about hobby lobby they should have a say in what they are paying for.
Know as for the comments about women being hoes and whores, I find that plan B is used more in rape victims and not by strangers but there own husband or so called friend. Date rape ect...
Also birth control and plan an are not the same thing. Plan B kills the baby after the fact and birth control is like a condom that prevents baby's from entering this world before people are ready to be a parent. Birth control is not a sin. Bringing a baby into this world with out mean ls to support it and live on welfare would be wrong.
As a family company they feel that plan B is wrong and they shouldn't have to pay for it.
True, but if you don't feel you should pay for it, isn't it hypocritical to then invest money that causes you to make money when someone does pay for it? Hobby Lobby is profiting from plan B being sold.
Here is something I found, while they do invest in to the big pharmacy company's so you are correct that they are profiting from such drugs. But they are also profiting from addictive narcotics as we'll. I mean if we are going to argue this, then point out how many company's listed below sale narcotics? Is that wrong? Allot of people get addicted to these drugs everyday. They kill people to, and it's old news that company's invest for the purpose of there employees 401K ....
These companies include Teva Pharmaceutical Industries, which makes Plan B and ParaGard, a copper IUD, and Actavis, which makes a generic version of Plan B and distributes Ella. Other holdings in the mutual funds selected by Hobby Lobby include Pfizer, the maker of Cytotec and Prostin E2, which are used to induce abortions; Bayer, which manufactures the hormonal IUDs Skyla and Mirena; AstraZeneca, which has an Indian subsidiary that manufactures Prostodin, Cerviprime, and Partocin, three drugs commonly used in abortions; and Forest Laboratories, which makes Cervidil, a drug used to induce abortions. Several funds in the Hobby Lobby retirement plan also invested in Aetna and Humana, two health insurance companies that cover surgical abortions, abortion drugs, and emergency contraception in many of the health care policies they sell
I guess my point is that these company's sell way more than what is listed in the article and to be fair we need to look at this from all sides. I personally feel that Big Pharma company's can take a hike. They profit off of so much more than Hoppy Lobby. Investing in any one of the ones listed above shows that they prob didn't do there home work. Big pill pushing company's are killers plain and simple... And where there are killers there is green.. The money is the answer.
I guess my point is that these company's sell way more than what is listed in the article
So, what percentage of your profit has to be from something you disapprove of in order to make you a hypocrite? You have established that as long as you make a whole lot of money from other products it is ok to make money off products you don't like. So, is 1% a good cutoff? If you make less than 1% of your profit from Plan B are you not a hypocrite, but more than 1% you are?
Actually I agreed with you after doing some research. By the time I had finished that last post I had my eyes opened. I can see why this is an issue. But since I'm against Obama and Obama care I personally am happy they won there fight in court. On the flip side I'm pro choice. Yet I feel Obama is wrecking this country more than bush did. You made your point and that's good.
They are supporting the pill, the one a women takes daily to not get pregnant. Supporting plan B is completely different, a women would take that after becoming pregnant. Hobby Lobby already said they would pay for birth control pills, just not abortion pills.. There is a difference
They are not profiting from the sale of plan B.. You missed my point. That's why this point is mute. They do invest in the drug company's that do make these products. As a 401K for there employees. As for investing in one product? No they didn't. Any one can by stock for and company and still not agree with every product they make and produce.
I do not feel that Hobby Lobby is hypercritical, I do think that investing in the drug company's is all about money. If I bought stock in tobacco knowing that it kills millions every year, and then turned around and filed a law suit against one because I got cancer for smoking.? Ya I get your point. Ok so let's say they are hypercritical, as I am beginning to believe haha. Very we'll played I might add.
