CreateDebate


Debate Info

35
48
Yes, they are scum No, they are benevolent
Debate Score:83
Arguments:63
Total Votes:89
More Stats

Argument Ratio

side graph
 
 Yes, they are scum (30)
 
 No, they are benevolent (31)

Debate Creator

johnny5(135) pic



Is Israel an evil nation as defined by her actions?

Note to reader - No ones getting banned here, unless they really take the piss. This is a free and fair debate, with no moderation unless necessary.

All view points welcome if politely expressed. I dont care if you are AIPAC or a Nazi. Get your views out and well have a free for all. Just be (reasonably) polite on a personal level, and reasonably well worded, if you are arguing on a subject matter. 

If I feel you are really taking the piss, I will warn you, in public, and give you the chance to re edit. If you are some kind of supremacist, be careful how you express this, and be reasonably polite when adressing other posters. I dont want to be reading holocaust jokes and comments about dirty muslims etc. I dont want to be reading racial insults about other posters. I dont care what you believe, and you are free to express those beliefs in the context of this debate - politely or impersonally. That is all. 

Cheers. 

 

---

 

As I see it. 

1 Israel build on Palestinian land

2 Palestine seek recourse to international law, and are blocked by Americas veto, despite the fact the resolution is backed by the world.

3 Denied international justice Palestine defend their land with rockets, an escalation eventually killing 64 soldiers and 3 Israeli civilians. 

4 Israel respond to the rockets by escalating a campaign of violence on the palestinian people, killing 1600 civilians and 300 children. 

 

Critical points -

1 Palestine is denied sanctity of its land.

2 Palestine is denied international justice or recourse to justice.

3 Palestine is subject to a massively disproportionate massacre of its citizens.

 

Background - 

Creation of the state of Israel, in someone elses land.

Action of Israel building on the Palestinian land.

Americas continued veto of resolutions with the worlds backing, seeking justice for Palestine

Biased American news networks distorting the events with a completely alice in wonderland version of perspective, compared to the rest of the world.

Massive institutional bias in Americas media, news, film industry and political infrastructure.

 

Yes, they are scum

Side Score: 35
VS.

No, they are benevolent

Side Score: 48
3 points

See above. Israel is acting as a child murdering, home invader and is universally detested outside of USA for her actions. Only Americas support enables Israel to continue to act as a mass murderer of civilians and an oppressor of human beings.

Side: Yes, they are scum
Stickers(1037) Disputed
2 points

Is Israel an evil nation as defined by her actions?

This is completely polarizing the matter. Neither Israel nor Palestine are "evil" nations, you can cite flaws in their government, but that doesn't make their citizens, currency, cars, and trees "evil", as we would expect of a wholly "evil" nation.

1 Israel build on Palestinian land

I'm not sure what you mean by this! Are you saying that they are currently on land that has belonged to the Palestinians for thousands of years, or that the land has been Palestine's since its formation following the collapse of the Ottoman Empire? If the latter, would you include the emirate of Trans Jordan as also belonging to the modern Palestinian state?

2 Palestine seek recourse to international law, and are blocked by Americas veto, despite the fact the resolution is backed by the world.

How does this make Israel an evil nation?

3 Denied international justice Palestine defend their land with rockets, an escalation eventually killing 64 soldiers and 3 Israeli civilians.

This isn't the first time that Palestine has launched rockets, in fact, it's arguably the only time when Palestine has launched an assault that wasn't intended as genocide. See the 1948 war in which Abdul Rahman Azzam promised "a war of extermination and momentous massacre which will be spoken of like the Mongolian massacre and the Crusades.", or any list of Palestinian suicide bombings.

4 Israel respond to the rockets by escalating a campaign of violence on the palestinian people, killing 1600 civilians and 300 children.

Israel has remained unscathed because most of the Palestinian missiles have been shot down. If they hadn't we would see easily ten thousand Israelis killed in a year of conflict. Israel's campaign has been retaliatory to the tens of thousands of rockets launched by Palestine in the past decade. The body count is low in Israel due to the fact that only a fraction of a fraction of the missiles launched towards them have managed to hit them.

Biased American news networks distorting the events with a completely alice in wonderland version of perspective, compared to the rest of the world. Massive institutional bias in Americas media, news, film industry and political infrastructure.

I can understand that these things are bad, but how on earth are these reasons that Israel an evil nation?

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

This does not depict the conflict on systemic terms. I'd continue on with your other points, but they just seem to be more or less reiterations of previous points.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Side: No, they are benevolent
johnny5(135) Disputed
2 points

Thank you for your reply.

Evil has some loose merit as a descriptor in politics, if not in pure science. Judged on her actions on a human level, we would argue that nazi Germany was evil. If you want to use oppressive, child murdering, dehumanising, international pariah, then feel free to substitute that in for evil.

1 Palestinian land as agreed upon today.

2 Its an axis of enablement. America has a veto and is using it to stand in the way of basic human rights resolutions that are supported by pretty much every nation on earth. definitely more than brought israel into being in the first place.

3 Lets talk about history, and ignore the perpetual cycle of oppression visited on the palestinians by israel, or the actual death totals that are incredibly sckewed to palestinian civilian dead, or the fact palestinians are simply routinely dehumanised and disregarded as human life, but israel and us media.

4 Israel is arguably a first world power, and is massacring 1000s of civilians and 100s of children, in a manner that would be wholly unacceptable for any first world power in the west. UK couldnt do it to Ireland. America couldnt do it to a neighbour. France couldnt do it. South Africa style, Serbia style dehumanising, genocidal mentality war crimes. Bottom line is the death totals paint israel as a terrorist to anyone not american or israeli.

5 zionist influence of american media and government is not something we are not allowed to talk about. no one is blaming jews, who often are at odds with israel too. but its ridiculous to pretend there is no connection between the fact that us media is routinely pro zionist, and is completely out of touch with world opinion and also reality. biased hannity style misrepresenation of the issue by hollywood, us media and the government is tantamount to propaganda, and its hallmarks are as odious and obvious today, as they were in pre war germany.

Side: Yes, they are scum
2 points

If the IDF is so moral please explain why close to 2,000 Palestinians have been murdered by the IDF whereas less than 100 Israelis have been killed in the most recent conflict?

Side: Yes, they are scum
1 point

It could be that in Israel they actively encourage citizens to take cover in one of the many structures they have built to defend against rocket attack whereas Hamas actively encourages people to stay put and be martyrs for the cause of victim publicity.

Side: No, they are benevolent
1 point

all the proof is in the evidence, too many, and ironically self acclaimed morally superior and far from it, ironically carrying themselves as their past oppressors. the nation is being taught a rewritten history which is evident in their childrens schoolbooks which have strange teachings in them. look for the evidence and you will easily find.

Side: Yes, they are scum
4 points

First of all, I don't really support the absolutes in this debate. One should not be pro-Israel or pro-Palestine. With that being said, I believe Israel has the right to defend itself. I also believe they need to do a much better job of avoiding civilian deaths. However, the strategy of Hamas to use human shields and play the civilian death card to gain media support is despicable.

Have you forgotten that Hamas is a terrorist organization? They have launched thousands of rockets at Israel. Fortunately, not many have been harmed but their intent is clearly malicious.

Side: No, they are benevolent
johnny5(135) Disputed
1 point

My contention with the israel has the right to defend herself argument, is that 1 israel is in the a state of perpetual aggression against palestine, and their reaction to palestines right to defend herself is massive and disproportionate slaughter.

Israel is in their land, oppressing their people, and blocking their legal recourse.

So Israel is not defending itself in my humble opinion. Israel is escalating its own aggression, in the face of palestinian defending herself, against israels rape of her nation and peoples.

Human shields is a dehumanising propaganda slogan in my mind. human shields dont kill people. dropping a multitude of indescriminate bombs in civilians areas and killing kids on beaches with zero justification, like dogs, kill people.

Human shields is just a catch all excuse APAIC and Israel use to explain their own evil. "Human shields" "anti semitism" "divine right to the land" "uncivilised muslims"...these arent actual arguments. they are excuses the evil tell, that depend on trust from the listener, to explain away their evil.

If bin laden said "the world trade center was an important strategic target, but the americans used human shields" would that warrant a pass?

Israel just killed 300 kids and half the 9/11 total in less than a year. Hamas killed like 3 people.

Israel is a terrorist organisation. Hamas is a kindergarten tantrum by comparison.

One killed 3 and the other killed 300 kids. Dont act like you understand intent, and you can vouch for the kiddie murderer.

It takes a fundamental divorce from reality to make these assertions. If you were out there on the ground with 300 dead kids, you wouldnt be trusting skin tone and fox news to explain the discrepancy.

Side: Yes, they are scum
Troy8(2433) Disputed
1 point

My contention with the israel has the right to defend herself argument, is that 1 israel is in the a state of perpetual aggression against palestine

How so?

and their reaction to palestines right to defend herself is massive and disproportionate slaughter.

So you're suggesting that they allow the thousands of rockets launched by Hamas to kill civilians instead of shooting them down in order to make the death totals proportionate? That's terrible.

Israel is in their land, oppressing their people, and blocking their legal recourse.

Can you elaborate a bit on this?

So Israel is not defending itself in my humble opinion. Israel is escalating its own aggression, in the face of palestinian defending herself, against israels rape of her nation and peoples.

Both sides are escalating aggression obviously, I would say both should be recognized at fault. Israel has given Hamas several opportunities to have a humanitarian ceasefire, but this has consistently been shattered by continued rocket fire. How does that make Israel the evil nation?

Human shields is a dehumanising propaganda slogan in my mind. human shields dont kill people. dropping a multitude of indescriminate bombs in civilians areas and killing kids on beaches with zero justification, like dogs, kill people.

I disagree.

http://www.theblaze.com/stories/2014/07/27/a-school-a-cemetery-a-babys-crib-the-disturbing-spots-where-hamas-is-allegedly-launching-rockets-and-storing- bombs/

https://news.yahoo.com/hamas-rockets-found-second-united-nations-school-224830922.html

http://www.nationalreview.com/feed/384129/hamas-rockets-found-third-unrwa-school-greg-pollowitz

If storing and firing rockets from schools and other civilian areas does not fall under "human shield", I don't know what does. Civilian deaths could be much lower if these actions were not taken.

Human shields is just a catch all excuse APAIC and Israel use to explain their own evil. "Human shields" "anti semitism" "divine right to the land" "uncivilised muslims"...these arent actual arguments. they are excuses the evil tell, that depend on trust from the listener, to explain away their evil.

It certainly doesn't justify the killing. I completely agree. However, I don't think Israel should subsequently be painted as an evil, terrorist nation because of it. If Israel wanted to kill the civilians in Gaza, the entire region would virtually be no more.

If bin laden said "the world trade center was an important strategic target, but the americans used human shields" would that warrant a pass?

In what world is that even remotely related? Don't ruin your argument with that nonsense.

Israel just killed 300 kids and half the 9/11 total in less than a year. Hamas killed like 3 people.

Israel is a terrorist organisation. Hamas is a kindergarten tantrum by comparison.

One killed 3 and the other killed 300 kids. Dont act like you understand intent, and you can vouch for the kiddie murderer.

What don't I understand about intent? Hamas has made it clear that want to destroy Israel completely. You're basically saying that because Israel defends itself and cares much more about its citizens, it is a terrorist organization...

It takes a fundamental divorce from reality to make these assertions. If you were out there on the ground with 300 dead kids, you wouldnt be trusting skin tone and fox news to explain the discrepancy.

What assertions? I understand your frustration at Israel. I agree that the civilian death toll is way too high. But let me ask you, what should Israel do differently? What's your solution to this problem? It's very easy to sit there and complain and demand for peace, but it really is only productive if you put forth an alternative.

Side: No, they are benevolent
3 points

There are pretty much no Palestinians, most of them are Egyptians. If they can claim Israel's land then Italy can claim most of Europe because Rome once ruled it...

Side: No, they are benevolent
johnny5(135) Disputed
2 points

Im pretty sure when israel was created, it wasnt a land that had been populated for the last century by a bunch of european jews.

Side: Yes, they are scum
2 points

As I see it.

1 Israel build on Palestinian land

That was never Palestinian land. They forfeit that right to call it their land when they attacked the Jews in 1948.

2 Palestine seek recourse to international law, and are blocked by Americas veto, despite the fact the resolution is backed by the world.

By what account? Most of the European world supports Israelis rights to defend themselves.

3 Denied international justice Palestine defend their land with rockets, an escalation eventually killing 64 soldiers and 3 Israeli civilians.

Maybe you were kissing up to Obama at that time. May I help you while you take a break from smoking pot. The Palestinian terrorist attacked Israel first by kidnapping and killing 3 civilians.

4 Israel respond to the rockets by escalating a campaign of violence on the palestinian people, killing 1600 civilians and 300 children.

Well they have 2 places to go. They can run into the ocean or run into the Israelis. Egypt has rejected their kind due to them being a pain in the ass to the Egyptians too. They are scum. They hide behind civilians as they shoot rockets.

Critical points -

1 Palestine is denied sanctity of its land.

Again, there is no such thing as Palestine. They ruined that by attacking the Jews in 1948.

2 Palestine is denied international justice or recourse to justice.

At least Israel didn't commit genocide like Serbia, Russia, and China has.

3 Palestine is subject to a massively disproportionate massacre of its citizens.

You don't pay attention to other world events do you? Typical closed minded democrat.

Side: No, they are benevolent
johnny5(135) Disputed
1 point

top marks for "as I see it". Ill go easy on your child murderer sympathiser ass.

1 Theres international borders and frankly, history is not your friend here. Occupying force blah blah blah. The borders do exist. Building settlements on their land is obviously fucked up.

2 Most of the world supported or abstained whenever Palestine have resolutions. America vetos for no reason other than axis of zion. Israel is uniformly unpopular in every nation on earth outside of USA.

Furthermore its not seen, frames or understood as israel defending itself, when it oppresses palestine and then massacres her people. its seen as a barbaric rogue state tyrant, living in the wrong century and basically shitting on the name of white western nations everywhere.

3 Palestinians didnt start it, anymore than a rape victim is starting it by slapping an inserted attacker. You are forgetting the institutional oppression and occupation, not to mention the settlement building, aid embargoes and just basically everything.

4 Scum is the nation killing 300 kids. Just because one nation is a white looking nation, and the other is mooslim, doesnt mean we judge on us media propaganda. israel kills 100 times as many civilians. same way the nazis were cleaner and whiter than the jews, they were still scum.

human shield myth is pure dehumanising propaganda. goebbles would be proud. they are engaging in assemetrical warfare, from a small poor state. doesnt justify killing 1000s of civilians and 100s of children.

Human shield isnt responsible for their deaths. Dropping plane loads of indiscriminate bombs into civilian areas and shooting up civilians like dogs is.

1 There actually is. its a recognised overseer state actually. maybe you missed that vote. the same people that brought israel into existence brought palestine into it too.

2 hmm. in the same way slavery isnt technically genocide. i think its pretty hard to deny apartheid and war crimes.

3 im not part of your political spectrum. i didnt chose the donkey. its not the worst massacre happening, in the last decade, but its a travesty for any civilised nation to be acting this way to a neighbour or a protectorate state.

this is the big problem. what is palestine to you? apartheid israel, or the land next door you are occupying? you cant have it both ways.

real talk. israels name is shit in this world, because of this, and it is in no way a sustainable situation for israel. its a situation that puts the whole nation on the chopping block of history.

Thank you for contributing.

Side: Yes, they are scum

I think it was Coldfire who mentioned this...

Let's look at the two sides:

Israel

First world country, industrialized, a democracy.

Gaza

Third world country, un-industrialized, a country ruled by a Muslim-extremist terrorist group (Hamas).

Now, which country would you support?

Side: No, they are benevolent
johnny5(135) Disputed
1 point

Let's look at the two sides: (1934 edition)

Hitler

First world leader, industrialized country, democratically elected.

Jews

Third world people, "un-civilized", bad reputation and associated with religious extremism, terrorism and ruining germany.

Now, which would you support?

Ill make my own mind up thanks.

Side: Yes, they are scum
1 point

Your comparison is very poor.

First, you are comparing a single person to a group of people; how does that even make sense? In my comparison, I was using two recognized nations that are in conflict with each other.

Secondly, you basically made the last part of your dispute up out of thin air. The Jewish community is not at all known for being "uncivilized", having a (morally) bad reputation, and exhibiting religious extremism or terrorism; already 4/6 of the information presented on Jews is inaccurate. The last two pieces of information (Third world people, and ruining germany) are only possibly accurate if you yourself are from Nazi-Germany.

In my argument, I presented pieces of information that are considered facts to majority of the world. In your dispute, you basically made a very poor comparison to my argument in an attempt to support your own personal opinion on the debate topic (which I'm assuming is that Israel is "evil").

In conclusion you have failed very hard at debating, you obviously pro-Palestinian person.

Side: No, they are benevolent
sha420qb(1) Disputed
1 point

that doesnt make sense when the palestinians arent able to gain access to build, they are being opressed and dictated to. lol you said gaza the country

Side: Yes, they are scum

I would always choose the civilized nation over the backwards and barbaric one. Palestinians are islamists and islamists are fascists.

Also it is a fact that Jews originate from the Israel/Palestine region and that Palestinians are Arabs who have settled in the area following its conquest.

Palestine doesn't exist. There never has been a Palestinian state in history. Palestine was merely a name given to the region by a Roman emperor long before the Arabs known as Palestinians arrived.

Side: No, they are benevolent

First if all: Israel gave their some of their land to the Palestinians. All the land they have was given to them by God. Not already occupied. That land was theirs (Israelites) to begin with.

Second of all: Israelites are not evil but strictly Moral and will not allow any evil acts from other nations. Israel is our ally( Americas). Israel warns other nations and its citizens. No way they are evil.

Side: No, they are benevolent
1 point

Im not jewish, so your religious fanatic argument, really just seems like a religious fanatic argument. You are saying they believe they have a holy right to displace a population, because its really their land, because are religious fundamentalists?

Not really a coherent argument.

The UN gave jews a place to live, so im not sure where you misplaced that fact...

You seem to be confusing a massive influx of european jews with some kind of claim to primacy over indigenous populous. This is ridiculous.

Secondly - claiming a whole people are moral is dumber than claiming they are all evil. I claimed the nation is evil through its actions, not that israelites are all evil or that jews are. I do think Americans and Israelis and perhaps even jews are being made complicit in evil, but thats a different matter.

Where is the morality in the actions of israel? Stealing land, religious fanaticism, killing children, dehumanisation, religious and racial supremacist theory, building further into stolen land, oppression, etc.

Sounds like racial and religious supremacists. Definitely not a good thing.

Israel is commiting evil acts, and then complaining about the response, and forgetting its own evil acts and escalations. Israels actions are far worse than palestines and their status is far more economically and strategically secure. Israel is its own enemy and its own destroyer.

Israel is an American ally, so im told, but all they have done is destroy americas image around the world. What else has israel contributed to america?> because it seems like a leech sucking the blood from an elephant and giving it AIDs in the process.

Israel isnt in a position to warn anyone. They are a tiny country, trading on aid, and an illegal nuke program. Without US support they would either A have to grow up and stop fucking with people or B go to total war in a world that will not tolerate a total war.

Out of all the nuclear nations, israel is the one that is in the most warfare, and is constantly at the heart of wars and trouble in the world.

A bunch of euro jews with zero connection to the land, displaced a load of arabs and zionist links to america to fund their dirty and barbarous campaign of oppression and violence. Modern israel has nothing to do with history, and everything to do with evil, and the worlds greatest poor me story for when people call a tyrant a tyrant.

That and cult zombie religious fanaticism of course.

Side: No, they are benevolent
johnny5(135) Disputed
1 point

also, your geographical primacy argument basically states, euro Americans should be supplanted by native Americans, who will then oppress them, and slaughter their kids if they rebel against this oppression. Native Americans will come from all corners of the continent and drive the europeans into essentially what equates to captivity as lesser humans. The native americans can then build into what little land the euros have left, deny them recourse to law, through an eskimo veto at the united nations, and all because they owned the land 1000s of years ago. Oh my bad, that was only 100s of years ago. Then they native americans can join their spiritual fathers and fulfill their birthright, even if they are actually not really native americans, have never lived in that part of the world, and have the most tenuous link possible to the region. In fact these eskimos can come in and actually fuck with people who have native american blood and dna, because they are of the religion of native americans and the others have become influenced by the europeans. Thats what you are saying. Basically in other news, the english can fuck off, because the irish where there first, and australia is now a black only continent too.

You retort to facts was that their deity told them to do it. I knew a guy who was skitzophrenic one time. He used the same line when he stabbed someone. I imagine this is why Israel is avoiding the international court of human rights, at all costs.

"Their deity told them to do it." I guess you are a big fan of 9/11 as well then...

Side: Yes, they are scum

Both sides are in the wrong. Both sides are killing. .

Side: No, they are benevolent
2 points

I respect this view. Well said.

Side: No, they are benevolent

Thanks Troy. That means a lot. It makes me so sad all of the killing. :(

Side: No, they are benevolent
johnny5(135) Disputed
1 point

One side is perpetually wrong, and oppressing though. Only israel is in perpetual war and encroachment on palestinian rights and land.

Also saying both sides are killing is disingenuous. One side killed 3 people and the other one killed 1800 and 300 kids.

Side: Yes, they are scum
1 point

It takes two or more to fight. Both sides are killing, and for what?

Side: No, they are benevolent
johnny5(135) Disputed
1 point

Thats a silly addition. You used that one in the ISIS thread, and hamas and ISIS are not the same thing at all. ISIS have declared war on hamas for being too soft and not being a true muslim society of 12 century laws etc.

Side: Yes, they are scum

I would still say the same thing to both of them, "That's what you get!" ;)

Side: Yes, they are scum