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Debate Info

7
3
Yes No
Debate Score:10
Arguments:15
Total Votes:11
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 Yes (5)
 
 No (2)

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Jace(5163) pic



Is Liberty a Relative Construct?

When we discuss liberty are we referencing an objective system of liberties which exists beyond our conception of it, or are we referencing a system we are constantly reinventing that is relative to our respective times and cultures?

"The men of the future will yet fight their way to many a liberty that we do not even miss." - Max Stirner

Yes

Side Score: 7
VS.

No

Side Score: 3
2 points

Specific liberties as well as specific restrictions, ARE cultural in origin. Liberties are created for the same reasons they are also restricted. Living together in large groups creates a need for rules that govern our interactions. The importance of liberties within a society is in no way diminished by the the fact that they are subjective to that culture. IMO 😊

Side: Yes
Jace(5163) Clarified
1 point

Do you think certain reasons are more valid than others? Are the same reasons always at work?

Additionally, given that liberty is relative what sort of consequences do you think this has or should have on international relations? Does a nation have an obligation to extend the liberties it values to foreign nationals? Does a nation have an obligation to impose or not impose its idea of liberties on other nations? Etc.

Side: Yes
2 points

Liberty being action taken independent of outside human coercion or restraint is an objective concept. The constructs we devise and refer to as liberty vary in degree based on subjective measures of acceptability and functionality. The concept is objective, the construct is subjective.

Side: Yes
Jace(5163) Clarified
1 point

Can liberty also encompass independent inaction? For instance, the liberty not to have to fight in the military. Or is liberty strictly about freedom to do things?

How can a concept be objective? It is, by definition, something that exists as a consequence of our perception and not independent thereof.

Side: Yes
Amarel(5562) Clarified
1 point

Can liberty also encompass independent inaction?

No person is ever inactive, they are just doing something else. So to answer the spirit of your question, yes, freedom to choose inactivity qualifies as liberty.

How can a concept be objective? It is, by definition, something that exists as a consequence of our perception and not independent thereof.

The concept is objective because it existed before it was perceived and named, and it would exist as an aspect of the human condition regardless of our awareness. There is an actual degree of liberty that is independent of ones perception.

The rule of law could be argued to afford greater liberty than that which the cave man had. The caveman didn't need to perceive whatever degree of liberty he had for it to have been there.

Side: Yes
1 point

Nobody has posted any definitions yet, so I will begin. First, by looking at the similarities in human DNA the idea of relative morals between two human cultures is absurd to me. If aliens starts communicating with humans, then, I might be persuaded.

Now if we look at the differences in bacteria within humans, there is a vast difference in humans. Popular magazines are always talking about gut bacteria differences these days. Since, the gut and brain are connected and a huge percentage of bacteria are in the gut, I contend that the bacteria in our gut determine our personalities.

In other words individuals, are our gut bacteria. This is what makes us unique individuals distinguished from others. Yet, our gut bacteria change depending on our habits and our environment. In brief, our environment and habits determine the vast majority of who we are.

Since, certain habits like positive thinking, mild exercise, and fresh air are always beneficial to the bacteria inside us regardless of location, culture, geography. Its safe to assume that all morals, ethics, values, including liberty are absolute.

"a. The condition of being free from oppressive restriction or control by a government or other power." thefreedictionary.com

Oppression causes stress.

Stress negatively affects human gut bacteria.

Therefore, oppression is immoral.

This is true, regardless of nation, location, or local law.

Liberty

Realtive

Construct

Side: No
Jace(5163) Disputed
1 point

Assuming gut bacteria are actually behavioral determinants at all (which is a large assumption given your lack of reference or coherent rationale), if there is actually vast difference in humans then that would suggest relativity and not absoluteness.

I also challenge you to prove that oppression always causes stress.

Side: Yes

Retard. You don't believe in liberty. You said religious liberty is not a right, and said that rights don't exist, so I banned you. Once you admit other people have rights, you may post on MY debates. If rights don't exist, you don't have the right to say that, now stop stalking me.

Side: No
Jace(5163) Disputed
1 point

If you want me to stop talking to you then you should probably stop writing to me. Particularly on threads where you can't just ban me for disagreeing. You don't hold any power here to back your preferences, which means I do have a practical right to say this (as demonstrated by me saying it).

Again, your behavior around this issue only proves my point that rights are a matter of power-backed preference rather than objective absolutes. You're still too busy being self-righteous to consider any of this, though, which is a common moralist attribute that I despise.

Side: Yes