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Is abortion okay?
There's so many arguments that get started over this, so I figured I would see where everyone here stands. Should abortion be solely the choce of the parent? Or should every child have a chance to live a hapy life?
First, ditch the arguement that fetuses are babies. That's like trying to convince me to buy a watermelon seed for the price of a full watermelon.
Second: I think that maybe, just maybe, the woman carrying the fetus should have more value than the fetus itself. To say that the woman should be forced to carry the fetus to maturity is nothing short of a restriction of free will. And I don't like being restricted.
Right? Scientists have declared that until the end of the first trimester the fetus is simply a self replicating cell and is not the equivalent of a life. Id even argue that until theres signs of brain activity it's not a life yet.
Who are these christian ass squeemish fags to tell OTHER people what to do? It's THEIR child and THEIR body so its THEIR decision with THEIR doctor, not you and your stupid religion and opinions. Roe V Wade is the LAW. it doesnt need changing
I think it is totally the choice of the parents whether to have their child or not, it is absolutely their decision. If they don't want their child, why should they have it if it. it will also not be good for the growth of child. besides, what about population. I think even orphanages are overpopulated now. So abortion is necessary... Let the parents think about their child, no law should be made against abortion........
No matter what you opinion is on abortion, i think it can be universally agreed that it is a tragic situation and that it is extremely inappropriate to call a unborn child a parasite no matter who the father was.
If a parasite is simply something that can not live on it's own, wouldn't a newborn baby continue to be a parasite since it would die without support.
A key characteristic in defining an organism as a parasite is how the organism interferes with it's host's biological fitness, which includes the ability the reproduce.
The fetus is not interfering with it's mother's ability to reproduce, it is the result of it.
Calling an unborn child a parasite is both medically and morally incorrect and i do not see any benefit from such offensive terminology.
If a parasite is simply something that can not live on it's own, wouldn't a newborn baby continue to be a parasite since it would die without support.
No a newborn isn't relying on a direct link for nutrients.
The fetus is not interfering with it's mother's ability to reproduce, it is the result of it.
Yes it is the mother cannot reproduce while pregnant.
A key characteristic in defining an organism as a parasite is how the organism interferes with it's host's biological fitness, which includes the ability the reproduce.
And a Fetus does interfere with biological fitness.
Calling an unborn child a parasite is both medically and morally incorrect and i do not see any benefit from such offensive terminology.
The benefit is that Pro-life people can't make good arguments against it. Oh and forcing someone to have a child they don't even want isn't morally incorrect?
Yes it is the mother cannot reproduce while pregnant.
The mother is reproducing while she is pregnant, that is what pregnancy is all about.
I think there are times when abortion is approitite, (rape, incest, mother's health), but what i am arguing against is just the use of the term parasite for the fetus. Like i said before, no matter what side your own, abortions are not something to laugh at. they are tragic, so to make light of the matter and call the fetus a parasite is wrong.
1) actually you can get pregnant when you are already pregnant. (I tried to link a news article about it, but something was wrong with the link)
2)Even if you couldn't get pregnant if you are already pregnant, what difference does it make? The entire 9 months of the pregnancy are an act of reproduction. It does not mean that if the mother can't start another pregnancy in the middle of her current pregnancy she can't reproduce, it just means that her reproductive system is too busy already reproducing
Also another definition a person who receives support, advantage, or the like, from another or others without giving any useful or proper return, as one who lives on the hospitality of others. sounds a lot like a fetus don't it?
Just because there is a more one definitions to something does not mean that all definitions apply to a specific object, i.e. "bat".
Also, if we were to use your definition of parasite, we would also be calling it a person, which would support that argument that the fetus is an individual person and an abortion would be murder.
I am not trying to argue that abortions should be unlawful, i just want people to stop using calling fetuses parasites. There is no benefit from using offensive and incorrect terminology. Allowing abortions is one thing, but dismissing their serious nature is wrong
Your Definition-"a person who receives support, advantage, or the like, from another or others without giving any useful or proper return, as one who lives on the hospitality of others."
Definition of Homicide- "the act of a human killing another human"
Your definition parasite, not mine, is calling the fetus an individual person, which as i said before would imply that abortion not matter the circumstances, would be murder.
So which would you rather choose, abortion is not murder or the fetus is a parasite.
Why are you fighting so hard to call an unborn child a parasite? Why can't you just call it a fetus, or unborn child?
It doesn't matter if it's okay or not. It's about being able to make your own choices in your own life, and the government mind their own business.
I personally think it's okay to have an abortion, a lot of people don't agree with that, but that doesn't matter. I don't agree with people being fat, doesn't mean it's okay for me to start making some eat better and work out.
It's a personal choice, that is why it's always argued.
So then why is theft illegal? Why is murder illegal? Why is abuse, assault, and rape all illegal? Each person who commits one of these crimes had a personal choice. Sounds like anarchy to me.
As an anarchist I resent that. The lack of state does not necessitate lack of moral values or denial of natural rights.
So then why is theft illegal? Why is murder illegal? Why is abuse, assault, and rape all illegal?
Because all of those represent the use of coercion to defy the natural rights of others. However, the prerequisite for natural rights is the faculty of reason. Unborn lack natural rights for the same reason we do not worry about the property rights of a squirrel.
That is a very vague term.... So do mentally retarded people qualify? Do children qualify? Do babies qualify? Do old men qualify? Many people cannot reason.... so what is the limit to how well someone can reason? Who defines what reason is actually reason? Is your reason actually reason? Can someone kill you if they don't believe you to be reasonable? You are limiting personhood just as many dictators in the past have done. Reason is not a factor when trying to decide when to kill someone. And even if you want to argue that reason is the limiting factor, you have still admitted to the killing of innocent human beings. What justice is this?
Not as long as we are referring to those incapable of utilizing the faculty of reason.
Do children qualify?
Not the unborn
Do babies qualify?
To a degree yes.
Do old men qualify?
Those who have aged so much they no longer possess the faculty of reason?No.
Many people cannot reason....
And as such they do not have natural rights. They may possess social or legal rights however.
Who defines what reason is actually reason? Is your reason actually reason?
The faculty of reason is simply man's ability to: make sense of things, for establishing and verifying facts, and changing or justifying practices, institutions, and beliefs based on new or existing information. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reason) There is no such thing as "my" reason, just my faculty of reason. Now the question is: is my faculty of reason valid? If my position where founded in the axiomatic principles of reality, then yes. Are they? You tell me: http://www.aynrand.org/site/PageServer?pagename=objectivism_pobs
Can someone kill you if they don't believe you to be reasonable?
No, I can use my ability to exercise my faculty of reason to develop means of defending myself. I could say, join and interact with a society. I could develop tools to ensure my safety and sustenance. What I shouldn't do, is behave contrary to what best serves my utility. Utility is quality of the living and thinking.
You are limiting personhood just as many dictators in the past have done.
My refusal to dictate the actions of others in regards to their own bodies is like that of dictators? Well gee, I never thought of it that way before............................
Reason is not a factor when trying to decide when to kill someone.
Irrationality is indeed the only force that can drive man to act coercively to his fellow man. But of the biological parasite that is an unborn child, who has neither rights nor preference of living, the only necessary element is the consent of the mother.
you have still admitted to the killing of innocent human beings.
Never mind the vicious nonsense of claiming that an embryo has a “right to life.” A piece of protoplasm has no rights—and no life in the human sense of the term. One may argue about the later stages of a pregnancy, but the essential issue concerns only the first three months. To equate a potential with an actual, is vicious; to advocate the sacrifice of the latter to the former, is unspeakable. . . . Observe that by ascribing rights to the unborn, i.e., the nonliving, the anti-abortionists obliterate the rights of the living: the right of young people to set the course of their own lives. The task of raising a child is a tremendous, lifelong responsibility, which no one should undertake unwittingly or unwillingly. Procreation is not a duty: human beings are not stock-farm animals. For conscientious persons, an unwanted pregnancy is a disaster; to oppose its termination is to advocate sacrifice, not for the sake of anyone’s benefit, but for the sake of misery qua misery, for the sake of forbidding happiness and fulfillment to living human beings. (http://aynrandlexicon.com/lexicon/abortion.html)
Those things are illegal because they hurt LIVING people. There's no debate about whether those people are living, there is a debate about whether a fetus is living, therefore it's a choice.
If someone is a strict constructionist who interprets the Constitution word for word, the sanction for abortion is given under the Fourteenth Amendment.
The Fourteenth Amendment of our U.S. Constitution defines a citizen “a citizen” at birth. If a woman is carrying a fetus in the womb, the U.S. Constitution does not designate the fetus as “a citizen.” It would take an amendment to the U.S. Constitution to declare a fetus a citizen. You have to be born in order to be recognized as a citizen. Therefore, a woman does have the right to choose. A fetus inside the womb is not designated as a citizen according to the U.S. Constitution so by default is not entitled to life, liberty, or prosperity. You have to be born in order to be endowed with those privileges. To conclude, neither the Federal government nor any of the States can deny a woman the right to choose.
If abortion is murder, abortion would have been terminated years ago due to the cruel and unusual punishment clause under the Eighth Amendment. Again, proof that a fetus is not recognized as a citizen of the United States of America.
I'm gonna go with pro-life, but in all honestly I'm torn in one situation. If someone has sex, and they get pregnant, it's completely their fault. Even if they don't want a kid, they should at least have the baby and put it up for adoption or something. It's not the child's fault you got pregnant, don't punish it and take away it's life. But, if someone were to get raped and get pregnant from THAT.....obviously they didn't want a kid, and didn't have sex willingly....so in that situation, abortion would be a sensible option...
Abortion would decrease people’s responsibility to things they do. Knowing that they are able to make up the result of their action people would become light-minded.
The punishment you put on people in this instance is is not worth the change that the threat of the punishment brings about - just as the death sentence does not work, forcing people to take responsibility (meaning forcing them to face huge punishments where it is unecessary) will only ruin peoples lives.
Your logic is contradictory. So it's not okay to, in your words, "punish" the baby by having an abortion if the parents have consensual sex, but it's okay to "punish" the baby in a rape situation?
The woman who got pregnant could easily put the child up for adoption as well, even if she doesn't want the baby.
BUT, adoption is not for everyone, just as abortion is not for you.
I personally could never put my child up for adoption. But I could have an abortion.
Religiously,emotionally,and ,physically abortion is harmful.You can't tell me that eliminating an innocent soul is healthy or sounds good to the ear.an average human being would surely feel guilty after carrying out an abortion and this can affect human emotions.
And what if you're not religious? Hmm? What then? What if you just don't give a shit about the little lump of cells inside you? And the about the "innocent soul," how do you even know it has a soul? Do you even know if the soul exists? Do you even know if GOD exists for that matter?
That narrows it down to physical. Yes, abortion can seriously hurt you if it's not done right, but hey, since when do we care if we get hurt as long as the desired result is achieved?
Never know what may happen someday - you may have a car-accident or win a million dollars and also become pregnant. For somebody it is a God's gift but others may be really disappointed with an opportunity of having babies. Nowadays abortion is a normal process for young women or women in middle age whose helth does not allow them to give a birth to children. But is it really OKAY? I guess, no. Firstly it hurts your helth greatly and moreover there is a chance that after abortion you will not be able to become pregnant again. Secondly, abortion, in fact, is a murder. So people who have done an abortion are legal murderers. And the last thing I want to say is that when my mother was pregnant with me she thought about abortion, but as you all see, I'm here, writing my argument and saying my mother "thank you for my life".
It's murder, huh? Give me legitimate proof that it is in fact murder. You can't, can you? No. Because a fetus is not a human. It depends completely on the host for its very existence. At least a baby can do SOME things on its own. It's more of a parasite than anything else.
I'm against abortion.If the women make abortion she will not have baby any more.Life without children is meaningful ,if there is no any laughs,criesshouting noises at your home it is very boring.Everyone have right to live so I advice for girls to think deeply before making any decision
I'd hope to think that every human is intrinsically valuable and has a right to life solely by being a human being.
I'm afraid I cannot see abortion as anything other than taking the life on a vulnerable, innocent human being for the sake of preserving the satisfaction, convenience and life-style of the mother.
A fetus is not a human being. A watermelon seed is not a watermelon. Sure, given time, they will grow into a watermelon/human being, but denying abortion is like making it illegal for someone trying to dig up a watermelon they planted but don't want anymore.
It's a lot more complicated than convenience, lifestyle, etc. Look up the Donohue-Lewitt hypothesis, which uses history to prove abortion's affect on crime-rate. That is not a matter of convenience, but of other people's safety. Actual people, not half-developed ones.
A watermelon seed is not a fully developed watermelon - yet the seed is still a member of the watermelon (Citrullus lanatus) species. The seed is essentially a watermelon in its first stages of development.
The fetus is, in fact, a human being at its first stages of development. Simply by belonging into the Homo Sapiens species makes it so.
Your stance in this position is severly outdated by the standards of modern embryology. Perhaps you ment person instead of human.
Sure, given time, they will grow into a watermelon/human being, but denying abortion is like making it illegal for someone trying to dig up a watermelon they planted but don't want anymore.
This analogy implies that just like how a watermelon seed is a commodity which you own and command as your property - a fetus, then, is also a commodity which you can own and command as your property. This is essentially slavery.
Secondly, following the analogy - if a fetus becomes a human being, and thus can no longer be considered a commodity - does that mean that when the seed becomes a watermelon, then just like the fetus/human, does that imply that the watermelon ceases to be a commodity and can no longer be considered property? Does the watermelon get some kind of right to life or something?
It's a lot more complicated than convenience, lifestyle, etc. Look up the Donohue-Lewitt hypothesis, which uses history to prove abortion's affect on crime-rate. That is not a matter of convenience, but of other people's safety. Actual people, not half-developed ones.
With this we've set the precedent that it is acceptable to punish innocent people for crimes they haven't committed.
Secondly, you are distorting the reality of the situation - abortions are not done for the sake of lowering crime rates. It may be a by-product, but the prime reason for abortion is still an egoistic one. Generally abortions are done because having a child will have a severe impact on the lifestyle of the mother (being unable to pursue a career, not wanting responsibility etc).
Thirdly, if lowering crime rates is important - why not utilize methods that don't involve killing humans - like putting surveillance cameras in every street and every home.
I was talking less about scientifics and more about how much that watermelon is actually considered a watermelon. No one is going to look at a watermelon seed and say it's a watermelon. No one is going to say a watermelon seed is equal in terms of value to a watermelon.
I did not mean that the objecticity of a watermelon extended to a human. I thought this would be obvious, but you can adjust it to mean sperm or eggs if that miniscule point bothers you so much.
And indeed, the point where a watermelon matures is when it is valued by others as a watermelon.
Yes, we have. Why? Well let's see. Because reality has proven it, with the drop rate in the 1990s falling directly after Roe v. Wade in 1973.
Who cares if it's a by-product? It still lowered crime and saved actual human beings. And why do we have a right to say that the woman has to carry that fetus which can't even be considered any more than a parasite until it exits the womb or at least begins to have higher levels of thought.
And your method is incredibly impractical. Unbelievably so. The U.S.A is already in debt, doing this would cost billions if not trillions to put and maintain functioning cameras everywher and pay people to moniter them. If there is a viable solution to abortion and to fixing crime rates, I'm all ears.
I was talking less about scientifics and more about how much that watermelon is actually considered a watermelon.
If you're not talking about science, what are you talking about? Your opinion?
Science gives a very clear cut, empirical and an objective answer to this question - the problem is that you don't like the answer, so you wish to discard science as a crux in this question.
No one is going to look at a watermelon seed and say it's a watermelon.
So what? The truth of things is not determined by the biases of people. Saying that a watermelon seed is a watermelon at its earliest stages of development, therefore watermelon - this is a factually correct statement regardless what people personally think.
No one is going to say a watermelon seed is equal in terms of value to a watermelon.
Sure, but if we are going to imply that the moral value of a watermelon seed is comparable to that of fetuses - we must conclude that the moral value of adult watermelons is also comparable to that of an adult human.
And indeed, the point where a watermelon matures is when it is valued by others as a watermelon.
Human beings do not obtain their value through other people. You are essentially implying that my right to life is proportionate to how much people value my life, and that value defines whether I am a human. If people do not value my life - does that mean I don't have a right to life anymore?
Given also that value is a vague term that cannot be measured - it is not a reliable criteria.
Yes, we have. Why? Well let's see. Because reality has proven it, with the drop rate in the 1990s falling directly after Roe v. Wade in 1973.
Who cares if it's a by-product? It still lowered crime and saved actual human beings. And why do we have a right to say that the woman has to carry that fetus which can't even be considered any more than a parasite until it exits the womb or at least begins to have higher levels of thought.
You implied that abortion is a matter of criminal security for actual people. This is not the case. Abortion is never done for the purpose of lowering crime and the ends do not justify the means.
And your method is incredibly impractical. Unbelievably so. The U.S.A is already in debt, doing this would cost billions if not trillions to put and maintain functioning cameras everywher and pay people to moniter them. If there is a viable solution to abortion and to fixing crime rates, I'm all ears.
This isn't a question about practicalities. This is a hypothetical question of whether you would be willing to do this if possible. If crime is such a devastaing problem that it requires human lives as a means to combat it - surely putting surveillance cameras in every bedroom won't be much of a problem for you.
Okay fine, if you insist on using science in a problem never meant for it, let's just adjust it so it does. A sperm cell is a human in the early stages of development.
And yes, your value of life is not an automatic thing. When you were a fetus, for example, your life was not fully developed and worth far less than your mother's because your mother had friends, family, and actual social connections.
Okay, so killing fetuses does not justify saving lives. And ditch the argument that "it's not what abortion is meant to do." That's meaningless, because regardless of what abortion is supposed to do, it reduced crime and saved lives.
So, instead of actually giving a nice alternative to what is already implemented, you just say that we should stop abortion.
How about you actually come up with a solution? Or make the orphanages all over our country less crowded?
Or, using your line of thinking, why doesn't the government just pay out of its pocket to raise the unwanted children? You know, because they have enough resources to do that.
Okay fine, if you insist on using science in a problem never meant for it, let's just adjust it so it does. A sperm cell is a human in the early stages of development.
Science is arguably the greatest tool for getting knowledge and understanding about the nature of the world. Accordingly, embryology has stated that every human being begins their lifecycle as a fertilized egg. That egg will develop into a fetus, which will develop into a toddler, which will develop into a young adult etc etc etc. After science ''failed'' the pro-choice cause, they've been trying to force science out of the dialogue while insisting that abortion is solely a philosophical issue.
And you really need to go over basic biology.
Every human being begins their lifecycle as a fertilized egg. After the fusion of the egg and the sperm, a new organism called the zygote is formed. Unlike the sperm and the egg (which respectively carries the dna of the father and the mother), the zygote has its own, unique DNA signature that is distinct from that of the mother and the father. Only after conception can we speak of a human.
A sperm is not a human, only a composite part of it. If you kill a sperm, did you just kill 50% of a human that doesn't even exist yet? Where is the other half (the egg)? In some random woman?
And yes, your value of life is not an automatic thing. When you were a fetus, for example, your life was not fully developed and worth far less than your mother's because your mother had friends, family, and actual social connections.
While a fetus and the mother may not be equal in its fullest sense - the fetus is still, nontheless, a human that should enjoy all basic rights. The right to life outweighs the temporary breach of the right to liberty.
Secondly, if I grant you that the fetus does not have a right to life because it isn't fully developed - if the fetus has no right to life, then surely it has no right to a poison-free environment. The mother has no obligations to her fetus and therefore should not restrict herself from alchohol, smokes, drugs etc. If the fetus is damaged or is later born with severe birth-defects (born blind or other deformations i.e no arm), should the mother be held responsible?
By your logic, she is not responsible. Nobody is. The fetus enjoys no right to life, there it does not have the right not to be harmed. The deformed child who was born should be grateful he got to be born at all. Would you lobby against for the disbanding of laws that restrict what mothers can consume during pregnancy?
Okay, so killing fetuses does not justify saving lives. And ditch the argument that "it's not what abortion is meant to do." That's meaningless, because regardless of what abortion is supposed to do, it reduced crime and saved lives.
Corporal punishment also reduces crime. Should we bring back dismemberment and lashing into our legal system?
The point here is that immoral actions do not justify the results.
So, instead of actually giving a nice alternative to what is already implemented, you just say that we should stop abortion.
Yes, how about we actually started funding adoption institutions and giving support to mothers in need.
Or, using your line of thinking, why doesn't the government just pay out of its pocket to raise the unwanted children? You know, because they have enough resources to do that.
Well, the government already pays out of its pocket to sustain the retired and the elderly.
Yes, the government should fund orphanages and other institutions that regulate and support adoption. It's certainly more ethical that killing the unwanted children.
Why limit it to the fertilized egg? The sperm cell is alive, and it also has the potential to be a human being. And, according to the link below, the sperm cell also posseses a unique DNA. As for the 50% thing, you're saying that every time a woman has a period, they kill 50% of a human?
No, because that's the mother's choice. If she does not want the child, but the government forces her to carry it, then that is what is not right. If she actually wants the fetus, then let her take care of it. It's her responsibility. But unless you are willing to pay for the raising of that child, it's her choice.
The U.S is already in debt, and the various fundraisers are not even close to supporting the glut of children in the various orphanages. It's not a viable option.
The thing you are talking about is social security. That involves people actually paying a seperate tax to support it. But, unlike unwanted fetuses, everyone is going to need of this at some point because we all grow old. Whereas unwanted fetuses are something that happens because of dire circumstances.
Here's the deal. You make a fundraiser and raise enough money to pay for and raise every single unwanted child in the U.S. That's an alternative. If you are so devoted to the idea that a fetus is a life, prove it by providing an alternative. We already have an alternative that is as efficient as one could want.
And despite what you say, the ends justify the means. It's basic math. Would you rather lose fetuses, or would you rather lose actual people due to the Donohue-Lewitt effect?
Why limit it to the fertilized egg? The sperm cell is alive, and it also has the potential to be a human being. As for the 50% thing, you're saying that every time a woman has a period, they kill 50% of a human?
The sperm cell has no potential to become a human. Neither does the unfertilized egg. On their own, the egg and sperm will never become new, distinct human beings that have the general lifecycle you'd expect from a human. The organism that results from the fusion of the egg and the sperm - that's already the human being. There is no potentiality to speak of at all.
The sperm and the egg do have the potential to create a human being, but to say that they are potential humans is simply incorrect and inconsistent with basic logic and science. No humans are killed when either the egg or the sperm die, because no human has yet been created that can die.
And no, I'm not saying that every time the woman has her period she kills 50% of a human - you are actually saying that by equating the sperm and the egg with actual, distinct human beings.
And, according to the link below, the sperm cell also posseses a unique DNA.
I think you've misunderstood what the article says.
Essentially the sperm carries the 23 chromosomes from the father. These chromosomes essentially carry certain traits, some of these traits are more prone to pass on and some less prone. What the article means by differences in the genes is that some sperms carry some traits and other sperms carry other traits whether those traits are haircolor, eyecolor, height, bodytype etc.
The article doesn't state that the sperm has a distinct, unique code of DNA - what it actually says is that different sperms carry different genetic traits that are to be passed on - all of these traits belong to the father. If all the sperms would carry identical genes, then they would always produce identical children with indentical traits - clones of each other pretty much.
And why are you even using science? Did you not argue that science doesn't belong in the question of abortion? Or does science only have a say if it furthers and helps your cause?
No, because that's the mother's choice. If she does not want the child, but the government forces her to carry it, then that is what is not right. If she actually wants the fetus, then let her take care of it. It's her responsibility. But unless you are willing to pay for the raising of that child, it's her choice.
Why should the mother have a choice to end someone else's life simply because she finds that life to be an impediment? Doesn't she have a moral duty to be responsible for her actions?
You did not address my hypothetical about harming the fetus as. Would you lobby for repealing laws that restrict what women can consume during the pregnancy? If a fetus has no right to life, it has no right not to be harmed via alchohol, tobacco etc. Later, when the child is born with deformities - well, that's too bad but the mother had the right to control her body. The deformed child should be grateful he got to be born at all.
I really wanted to know your opinion on this, but unfortunately you ignored this hypothetical.
The U.S is already in debt, and the various fundraisers are not even close to supporting the glut of children in the various orphanages. It's not a viable option.
The system is very much viable.
The U.S is in debt because they've done incredibly stupid financial decisions - mainly starting un-necessary wars and maintaing un-necessary military bases around the world. You could literally save trillions by cutting the military budget. From there, funding orphanages would not be a problem.
Sadly, to the U.S policing the world and bombing third world countries is more important that taking care of your children at home. The expenses of oprhanages isn't the problem - it's the government. You don't fix the symptoms, you fix the disease.
The thing you are talking about is social security. That involves people actually paying a seperate tax to support it. But, unlike unwanted fetuses, everyone is going to need of this at some point because we all grow old. Whereas unwanted fetuses are something that happens because of dire circumstances.
It depends on the welfare system.
Secondly, raising children and making sure that they get a quality education is an investment - they are essentially future taxpayers. It would actually be in the interest of the nation to support orphanages. This increases the sustainability and the quality of the population.
Here's the deal. You make a fundraiser and raise enough money to pay for and raise every single unwanted child in the U.S. That's an alternative. If you are so devoted to the idea that a fetus is a life, prove it by providing an alternative. We already have an alternative that is as efficient as one could want.
You can actually do it. How? By cutting your astronomical military spending.
And despite what you say, the ends justify the means. It's basic math. Would you rather lose fetuses, or would you rather lose actual people due to the Donohue-Lewitt effect?
Fetuses are actual people - that's the whole point of the pro-life movement. Also, it's difficult to take Donohue-Lewitt seriously, especially when Lewitt himself admitted that there was a computing error that inflated the abortion-crime relation almost by half - also take into account that there is actually no compelling evidence to suggest that abortion and the crime rate are causally related.
Secondly, you once again ignored my question - should be bring back corporal punishment? If the ends justify the means, would you support dismemberment, beatings, lashings etc.
No, I am not, because I actually do not believe a human is a human until it actually develops higher functions. The Supreme Court ruled that it is considered a human right after its first trimester when the neural tube. It doesn't even have a gender at this point, but I, and the supreme court, can still say it's a human.
I'm using science because you seem to have fixated upon it. Would you rather I ignore it? Okay then.
I answered your question: what happenes to the fetus is the mother's choice. It's part of her, it's leeching directly off of her body.
A quote directly from the article you linked:
"2) There was a coding error that led the final table of my paper with John Donohue on legalized abortion to have specifications that did not match what we said we did in the text. (We’re still trying to figure out where we went wrong on this.) This is personally quite embarrassing because I pride myself on being careful with data. Still, that embarrassment aside, when you run the specifications we meant to run, you still find big, negative effects of abortion on arrests (although smaller in magnitude than what we report). The good news is that the story we put forth in the paper is not materially changed by the coding error."
Okay, that's fine and dandy, but you still ignored the fact that such an option is not viable. It doesn't matter if the debt problem is because of the government, the people, or martians, it's still there. And as long as it is, we cannot afford to let every single unwanted child live on the government's payroll.
I'm sure that the government is aware of that, or maybe they're not. But the debt is still there. You've proposed to cut military spending. Sure, why not? But until they decide to do that, all abortion is going to do is end up with more poor and malnourished children
And even if you're right, abortion is terrible, and fetuses are babies, you forget one crucial fact, as many others do.
Just because you outlaw it, you will not stop it. Considering the public opinion on abortion, you will barely slow it down. And then we will have trouble.
Prohibition and the Drug Wars. What do they have in common? They both tried to outlaw something which was favorable in public eyes. The result? Spikes in crime, gangs coming in to profit from the illegal material, and a masive mess looked back upon with regret and shame.
I am pro-life because the fetus had no choice in this. They are a human being as soon as they were conceived. How can we determine when it is thing or a human?
I believe that abortion is not okay, it is bad. Because, they are people too and we can not decide who should die and who should live and killing people is sin. It is not in human rights, only God can judge. In addition, abortion is harmful for females, abortion can cause different illnesses, such as cancer. Much worse is that in future she couldn't bore a child. So i am against of abortion!