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145
39
yes No
Debate Score:184
Arguments:89
Total Votes:228
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Thewayitis(4071) pic



Is an atheist a loyal American?

 "In God we trust" is on our money. Senators and Congressmen begin their sessions with a prayer. The pledge of allegiance has "One nation under God" in it. The United States was formed with God in mind.  

To clearify this debate I am addressing only the orginal Constitution of the United States and its founding fathers.  What their intentions were.

 

yes

Side Score: 145
VS.

No

Side Score: 39
13 points

Well, In God we trust did not appear on money until 1957, and the pledge of allegiance "One nation under God" was not spoken of until it was added in 1954. However, the Chaplain has been praying with Congress since 1789.

Therefore, an atheist is just as loyal the next American despite whether Congress prays or what appears on the money. The country was not founded as a theology, it was founded as a democracy guaranteed by a federal republic where religion is a option and not a requirement. Freedom of religion is not freedom for religion. The United States was not formed with God in mind.

It is unfortunate that in some states proclaimed atheists are state unconstitutional prohibited from public office.

Side: yes
1 point

Now here we are one year later, and it appears that American Atheists had a similar idea, one which they decided to put into practice today. In the 26 states that agreed to allow it, the group is hiring planes to display trailing banners with messages like "God-LESS America" and "Atheism is Patriotic."

I really like the "God-LESS America" message, but I'm less than thrilled with the claim that atheism is patriotic. I think that is because patriotism has such a negative connotation for me. Don't get me wrong - I love the fact that the United States designed intentionally to be a secular nation, and there are many positive things about the country where I reside. But it has never made much sense to me to take pride in the fact that I was born here when this was completely out of my control.http://www.sbuckinghams.com/categories/Wedding-Attire/Wedding-Waistcoats/

Side: yes

You forgot to say the many of the founding fathers were deists :)

Side: yes
Thewayitis(4071) Disputed
-1 points

"Done in Convention by the Unanimous Consent of the States present the Seventeenth Day of September in the Year of our Lord one thousand seven hundred and Eighty seven and of the Independence of the United States of America the Twelfth In witness whereof We have hereunto subscribed our Names,"

This is taken from the original Constitution. Would an atheist allowed, "In the year of our Lord" to be on it? Would an atheist signed such a document? One can then conclude that the founding fathers all believed in God and it was formed with God in mind.

Side: No
Conro(767) Disputed
5 points

"Year of our Lord" was the common convention of dating at that time. Just like I shout "Jesus Christ!" even though I don't really believe "in" him. Or "God!". Or "Hell!" Or B.C. Or A.D. It doesn't imply belief. It only serves as a concrete reference point with which to measure time.

Side: yes
TERMINATOR(6780) Disputed
3 points

The so-called 'founding fathers' were not entirely Christian. As I recall, there was more than one atheist amongst them.

An American is an American - atheism is not American, nor is it anti-American. It is simply a belief.

Side: yes
aveskde(1935) Disputed
2 points

"This is taken from the original Constitution. Would an atheist allowed, "In the year of our Lord" to be on it? Would an atheist signed such a document? One can then conclude that the founding fathers all believed in God and it was formed with God in mind."

It really irks me when people have no understanding of the context of historical statements. The founding fathers were mostly unconventional in their religious beliefs, some were probably atheist based on their comments, or deistic. However when people like you read into history you take only modern uses of words and derive meaning from the records using a skewed interpretation.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_Tripoli#Article_11

Here's a document that puts it bluntly.

Art. 11. As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion,—as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquility, of Mussulmen,—and as the said States never entered into any war or act of hostility against any Mahometan nation, it is declared by the parties that no pretext arising from religious opinions shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries.

Please learn your history.

Side: yes
5 points

America's form of government was based largely on the teachings of philosophers and the basic system of checks and balances were based on Roman government during the Renaissance period that looked something like this link

The founders were scholars and very bright people with very strong ideas.

You are confusing the founders, the ones who actually made America a free state, with the reason many (not a majority but many) of the earliest pilgrims came here.

Many were Calvinist that were fleeing Roman Catholic rule in Europe.

But that should not be confused with the desire to begin a new religious state. The idea was religious freedom not freedom to be one specific religion - namely Christian.

The fact is, in spite of recent revisionist attempts by the religious

while the majority (not all) of the founders identified themself with one religion or another, the majority actually did not consider themself religious.

Deist was the popular term. Likely the sources you've seen assume a Christian god of one sort or another is the belief of one who is a deist, and so they will simply list a Deist like Paine or Jefferson as "Presbyterian" because it looks better for their own cause.

The fact is, Deist is akin to today's agnostic/atheists. They lived in a predominantly Christian setting, from friends to family, and so often were uncomfortable claiming they definitively did not believe a religion.

At the same time, they were quite comfortable saying that if a god exists he or she certainly is not the Christian god, and certainly does not meddle in the affairs of man.

Anyway, the point is, regardless of each individual belief of each individual creator of this country, none meant for this to be a religious state.

And as such everyone of any religion or lack there of is as welcome as the next in the "land of the free."

To say otherwise is... Unamerican.

Side: yes
5 points

Since when is the common Atheist not a loyal American?

The fact that they choose to deny religious beliefs shows no evidence to support that in any way they are disloyal to America.

If we were talking about an individual, then there probably is one or two or more out there that is an disloyal American. However, there are more American atheists out there who are loyal to America, and therefore, the concept of atheists being disloyal to America is null and void.

Side: yes
5 points

It doesn't matter if you are Atheist. I'm atheist and I'm loyal and patriotic to America. What does religion have to do with being a loyal American?

Side: yes
5 points

Pat Tillman was an atheist who gave up pro football

stardom to fight (and die) in Afghanistan.

-------------------------------------------------

The Bible junkies love their superstitions more than

America and what it stands for.

Side: yes
4 points

Of course we are. What does being religious have to do with being loyal to your country? Where I live I'm more into politics than all of my Christian friends and I care about whats going on here.

Some say we're a Christian nation, well some founding fathers and documents say otherwise.

"As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion; as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquillity, of Mussulmen..." Treaty of Tripoli Art. 11

"Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between man & his god, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legitimate powers of government reach actions only, and not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof, thus building a wall of separation between church and state" Thomas Jefferson

And there are more quotes from founders which prove we're not a Christian nation, all you have to do is look them up.

Side: yes
2 points

An atheist is just as loyal as any religious American. Plus, loyalty isn't something that it's all cracked up to be. I am loyal to the Constitution and America's founding principles, but I am not loyal to my government, mainly because currently, government is not loyal to the Constitution.

I have no problem with Under God and In God We Trust because they are both "fuck you"s to the Communists; but anyone who thinks that an America was found on religious principals needs to do some research.

also, the early pilgrims were either merchants or puritans (and such). The Puritans were discriminate against anyone who did not believe in their way, but that was because they built their own society and wanted it to be the way that they wanted, which was Puritanical. Anyone cast out went to live somewhere else in America. but many of the founding fathers, including Thomas Jefferson who wrote the Declaration of Independence, feared the masses (including their religious beliefs). They were certainly not religious people.

Side: yes
3 points

I have no problem with Under God and In God We Trust because they are both "fuck you"s to the Communists; but anyone who thinks that an America was found on religious principals needs to do some research.

I kind of support you and dispute you at the same time here. What I mean is, I support most of what you said, but when you said the first sentence of this thought I had a problem.

Namely, when you let your feelings towards an ideology get the better of you, namely communism, you play into the hands of people who don't care but to take advantage of that sentiment for personal power. That's partly why our country has started to have more religious overtones added to it the last half century; politicians unethically base campaigns around the latest group or ideology that is hated by the majority.

Look at the religious right, for example. Their entire platform is centred around hatred of homosexuals, atheists, and women's equality. Every other policy and issue that surrounds them is somehow based on these three things.

Side: yes
1 point

We have a lot of shit in America that comes from our rebellious culture. This includes having "Under God" in the Pledge of Allegiance. It in no way effects me and it only makes me proud to know that Eisenhower was way more bad ass than Stalin. We shouldn't let some issues with the religious right all of a sudden put us on some Secular war path towards anything religious.

Plus, what form of religious right are you referring to? If you mean Mainstream Republicans, none of them actually hate gays, atheists or women. Extremists, on the other hand, always hate certain groups, but we ignore them because they're very insignificant (both sides cancel each other out, in the end.)

Side: yes
2 points

in the Constitution it says that church and government are separated so yes they could be. religion and loving America have no relationship

Side: yes
2 points

I am an Atheist. I am an American soldier in the United States Army. I swore and oath to the fidelity to the protection of the American People and to the U.S. constitution. I have made many sacrifices to pursue those that would intentionally kill American civilians. I have given my blood sweet and tears in Afghanistan. Risked life and limb. I have lost friends in Afghanistan. I have stood by flag-draped coffins. I have separated myself from my family for over a year, because that is what the American people required of me.

How dare you question my loyalty! You who thinks the Constitution declared our independence.

Side: yes
Thewayitis(4071) Disputed
1 point

As typical you have it wrong. Being an atheist shows your a dumb ass. Proof of this is that you are in the military. Too dumb to think on your own and have to rely on someone else to tell you when to eat and sleep, I'm impressed.

It was constitution not Constitution. Learn the difference. For spending so much time on-line, you haven't learned a thing. Probably military intelligence at work.

Side: No
Bohemian(3860) Disputed
2 points

Who do you think you're kidding? Part of you thinks that I might be right, that perhaps there is no afterlife, and this thought terrifies you more than anything. The idea of being nonexistent upon death scares you in a way nothing else can. You attempt to cope with this fear by lashing out at me and other atheists, and thereby attacking your own doubt and fear. However when you lash out at me, I am able to turn your argument on it's head and make you look like even more of an idiot, this frustrates you even more. So you try even harder to attack me, thus perpetuating your own frustration and fear. You focus specifically on me because you know that I'm intelligent and I represent a challenge to your faith.

It was constitution not Constitution. Learn the difference.

One is capitalized and the other isn't. Also I specifically remember you saying THE constitution. You should also know that proper nouns are always capitalized. If you are using 'constitution' to mean The declaration of Independence then it should be capitalized.

However "The constitution" (whether big C or little c) is not now nor has it ever been used to mean the Declaration of Independence. This has been abundantly explained to you, by myself and several other people. Hell, you even created a whole debate about it asking if you were incorrect for saying so and the overwhelming response was "YES".

Side: yes
ricedaragh(2494) Disputed
2 points

Being an atheist shows your a dumb ass.

Then why are the overwhelming majority of Atheists educated people.

Proof of this is that you are in the military. Too dumb to think on your own and have to rely on someone else to tell you when to eat and sleep, I'm impressed.

So by your definition a loyal American is a coward theist that hasn't the balls to stand up and fight for his country's Ideals in the way that Bohemian has. Ideals that you maintain are devoutly Christian. Bohemian has trounced many a debater on here regardless of beliefs, something I've not seen from you and you have the audacity to label him dumb because of his patriotism and choice of career. What may I ask do you do?

Side: yes
Bohemian(3860) Disputed
2 points

As typical you have it wrong. Being an atheist shows your a dumb ass.

On average, atheists know more about religion than the religious.

Source: http://www.thelangreport.com/featured/want-to-know-about-religion-ask-an-atheist/

On the other hand, bigots such as yourself aren't typically known for their prolific intelligence.

Proof of this is that you are in the military. Too dumb to think on your own and have to rely on someone else to tell you when to eat and sleep, I'm impressed.

I take it that you don't have a job? I'm not sure how you think the Army works, but I get let out for lunch just like everybody else in the working world and when I get released for the day I can do whatever I want or go anywhere I want. No one tells me when to go to sleep. It's really not much different from any other job.

Your attempt at insulting me has failed.

Side: yes
1 point

yes he is a loyal american your atill a person if you dont belive in any gods thata all right for a anthiest

Side: yes
1 point

Funny how people forget that the many of the founding Fathers were in fact Atheists. including to of the most active and outspoken of the lot. Thomas Jefferson was in fact an atheist and made it quite clear that America was not meant to be a theocracy and that there was a lot of danger if that was the case. Benjamin Franklin was also an atheist and the glue that held the founding fathers together. He also knew the dangers inherent in a Theocracy and was the biggest proponent against it. These 2 people were the brains behind the founding of the nation and both atheists. This country was founded on loyal atheism!

Side: yes
casper3912(1581) Disputed
2 points

Wasn't Thomas a deist? The same with Ben?

Both considered themselves christian in a sense as well, although far from an orthodox one.

Outright atheism was rare then, sectarian Christianity was the norm(if I remember correctly) and a few intellectuals like Jefferson and Franklin Form their own thoughts on religion out of their culture resulting in criticisms of organized religion, belief in a deist like god, cutting up the bible so that Jesus ethnics were unmuddled with magical non-sense, a sense that religion was important to morals, etc.

Side: No

yes an atheist is a loyal American, that is there belief... it wouldn't matter if they believed that poop was holy i mean just cause you have your own beliefs doesn't mean you don't love your country.

Side: yes
1 point

Absolutely! I'm atheist and a loyal American! "In God I trust", "One nation under God"... doesn't matter to me... it's just words, tradition, and in no way does it require me as an American to believe... who cares?

Side: yes
1 point

P.S. I just saw this on the home page and just realized it's two years old... my bad.

Side: yes

Pat Tillman was an atheist and he gave his life for his country.

Side: yes

Here are some loyal American theists.

http://www.godhatesfags.com

I haven't seen any atheists trampling the flag or protesting the funerals of American soldiers like these worthless assholes.

A theist cannot be trusted to be loyal to their country because they're loyal to the mental illness that is religion above all else.

Side: yes
1 point

I've thought of this point, actually. It seems with the way that Christians in America tend to range from passively to actively undermining our country's constitution, in order to replace it with values that only reflect a single religion, one could say that these people are more loyal to their imaginary friend than their government.

In Europe there are Muslims who burn their country's flag, support terrorism, and an Islamic state. These people aren't loyal to their countries, they are loyal to their imaginary friend.

Well, it would still be a generalisation to say that theists are therefore disloyal. It does however seem that theism is quite capable of dividing loyalties.

Side: No
Thewayitis(4071) Disputed
0 points

Your own words, "Here are some loyal American theist." Are the actions of one enough to condone an entire group?

Prove to me that insanity is not the entire human race. Who is sane? Is it you? Are you the only one? One sane and rest insane, or is it the other way around? You my friend are among those with a mental illness? Welcome to the club.

Side: No
aveskde(1935) Disputed
1 point

Prove to me that insanity is not the entire human race. Who is sane? Is it you? Are you the only one? One sane and rest insane, or is it the other way around? You my friend are among those with a mental illness? Welcome to the club.

We're sane. You're not. Easy peasy.

Side: yes
-1 points

How can atheists truly be loyal Americans if they despise everything that America stands for and was founded on? They spend half their time trying to get "under God" and all references to Christianity taken away from all government buildings.

Theres a separation between church and state. However, this country still is heavily ingrained in Christianity and was founded by Christians who designed our constitution with Christian principles.

To hate Judaism and Christianity is to hate America. It's what America is. Its what most Americans are. Its what the founding fathers based their vision off of

Side: No
wforcier(98) Disputed
8 points

Wow, the logical fallacies in that argument were so great it made me want to vomit.

How can atheists truly be loyal Americans if they despise everything that America stands for and was founded on?

Please define atheist for me and point me to where it says atheists need to despise a certain thing in order to be atheists.

They spend half their time trying to get "under God" and all references to Christianity taken away from all government buildings.

I know many a theist that disagree with the concept of religion on government buildings. Further, I know some atheists who like "In God We Trust" on our currency. They liken the stability of the currency to the stability of trusting in God.

There's a separation between church and state. However, this country still is heavily ingrained in Christianity and was founded by Christians who designed our constitution with Christian principles.

Does this mean that someone believing in Baha'i, Confucianism, or Hinduism cannot be a loyal American? Must an individual be Christian in order to be a loyal American? I thought that the separation between church and state meant that an individual's religious thoughts were ignored.

To hate Judaism and Christianity is to hate America.

Sorry, but I fail to see the relevance. Just because someone is an atheist does not mean that they hate Judaism and Christianity. They may find the religions interesting from a theological or anthropological viewpoint

You appear to have several misconceptions on what atheism is. It has nothing to do with hating or despising. It is simply choosing to not believe something, which does not change the loyalty that they have to America.

Side: yes
4 points

At wforcier:

You have some major patience to have dealt with those asinine comments as tactfully as you did.

Side: yes
Lockjawx27(25) Disputed
0 points

"Does this mean that someone believing in Baha'i, Confucianism, or Hinduism cannot be a loyal American? Must an individual be Christian in order to be a loyal American? I thought that the separation between church and state meant that an individual's religious thoughts were ignored."

This came from your mind. At no point did I say that someone had to be a Christian in order to be an American. I said to hate it is to hate America because it is such an important, symbiotic part of America. Christianity is part of America's identity, regardless of the separation between church and state.

"You appear to have several misconceptions on what atheism is. It has nothing to do with hating or despising. It is simply choosing to not believe something, which does not change the loyalty that they have to America."

I know exactly what atheism is. And I'm not saying that every atheist hates Christianity but for the ones who do it would seem that they have hatred for their own country's very foundation.

This is based on the atheists that I've met personally. Never met one that wasn't an arrogant sob who did everything in their power to paint anyone or anything with a religious (especially Christianity)affiliation as a mindless chimp.

Side: No
iamdavidh(4856) Disputed
4 points

... Guess my personal favorite founding father hated America:

Question with boldness even the existence of a god; because if there be one he must approve of the homage of reason more than that of blindfolded fear.

-Thomas Jefferson, letter to Peter Carr, August 10, 1787

Where the preamble declares, that coercion is a departure from the plan of the holy author of our religion, an amendment was proposed by inserting "Jesus Christ," so that it would read "A departure from the plan of Jesus Christ, the holy author of our religion;" the insertion was rejected by the great majority, in proof that they meant to comprehend, within the mantle of its protection, the Jew and the Gentile, the Christian and Mohammedan, the Hindoo and Infidel of every denomination.

-Thomas Jefferson, Autobiography, in reference to the Virginia Act for Religious Freedom

I concur with you strictly in your opinion of the comparative merits of atheism and demonism, and really see nothing but the latter in the being worshipped by many who think themselves Christians.

-Thomas Jefferson, letter to Richard Price, Jan. 8, 1789 (Richard Price had written to TJ on Oct. 26. about the harm done by religion and wrote "Would not Society be better without Such religions? Is Atheism less pernicious than Demonism?")

I never submitted the whole system of my opinions to the creed of any party of men whatever in religion, in philosophy, in politics, or in anything else where I was capable of thinking for myself. Such an addiction is the last degradation of a free and moral agent.

-Thomas Jefferson, letter to Francis Hopkinson, March 13, 1789

Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between man and his God, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legislative powers of government reach actions only, and not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should 'make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof,' thus building a wall of separation between church and State.

-Thomas Jefferson, letter to Danbury Baptist Association, CT., Jan. 1, 1802

History, I believe, furnishes no example of a priest-ridden people maintaining a free civil government. This marks the lowest grade of ignorance of which their civil as well as religious leaders will always avail themselves for their own purposes.

-Thomas Jefferson to Alexander von Humboldt, Dec. 6, 1813.

They litterally go on and on. Seems Jefferson had a similar bone to pick with Christianity as many non-Christians do today, maybe part of the reason I like him so much. Jefferson wasn't alone in his disdain at the time, for the exact same type of Bible thumping yourself and so many of the Christian right is involved in today.

Look up Paine and Franklin and any number of others. About half held a similar opinion, and the other half were religious but believed religion should be private and not spewed like a tattling kindergartner trying to get a cookie from the teacher.

I'll leave you with my favorite:

Among the sayings and discourses imputed to him [Jesus] by his biographers, I find many passages of fine imagination, correct morality, and of the most lovely benevolence; and others again of so much ignorance, so much absurdity, so much untruth, charlatanism, and imposture, as to pronounce it impossible that such contradictions should have proceeded from the same being.

-Thomas Jefferson, letter to William Short, April 13, 1820

Side: yes
aveskde(1935) Disputed
3 points

"How can atheists truly be loyal Americans if they despise everything that America stands for and was founded on? They spend half their time trying to get "under God" and all references to Christianity taken away from all government buildings."

The sentiment at the time of the founding of this country was that religion is a private matter, that parading it around on ephemeral things like paper money and coins denigrated the greatness of god. Europeans fought violent feuds and skirmishes over rival churches and theological positions. A state-sponsored church would mean that the United States would face sectarian violence.

So no, this country was NEVER a "Christian nation" it only has has a Christian populace. Learn the difference. It's easy, actually: a Christian nation only supports one sect of Christianity and the rest are considered unorthodox or heretical. A Christian population may all follow whatever church they wish, with equal status.

"Theres a separation between church and state. However, this country still is heavily ingrained in Christianity and was founded by Christians who designed our constitution with Christian principles."""

You just stated two contradictory sentences in one paragraph. If there is a separation of church and state, then the constitution doesn't reflect Christian principals."

You're funny, anyway, because Democracy is a Greek idea, not a Christian one. If this country were founded on Christian principals there wouldn't be human rights, equality amongst all, voting and so on. Instead we would see biblical law enforced above all else. Women would be resigned to second-class citizens with no chance of equality. Jews would be the country's elite group because they are the chosen people. Absolute monarchy would replace democracy.

"To hate Judaism and Christianity is to hate America. It's what America is. Its what most Americans are. Its what the founding fathers based their vision off of"

You know, I think I have you figured out. You don't think for yourself one bit. You assimilate others' opinions as your own. It just so happens that the noisiest men in America scream opinions like that all the time, you didn't think of of it or even reflect one moment on how stupid the thing you just wrote sounds. You just accepted it.

Side: yes
AlexM(9) Disputed
1 point

"America is no way founded upon the Christian religion." George Washington

Side: yes
iChrispy(2) Disputed
1 point

An atheist is someone who does not believe in a deity, not necessarily someone who hates Judaism and Christianity. Besides, hating these religions is not the same as hating America. As you said, there is a separation between church and state.

Side: yes
-1 points

Note: This I moved this from one dispute to aid in the redirection of this debate.

"Done in Convention by the Unanimous Consent of the States present the Seventeenth Day of September in the Year of our Lord one thousand seven hundred and Eighty seven and of the Independence of the United States of America the Twelfth In witness whereof We have hereunto subscribed our Names,"

This is taken from the original Constitution. Would an atheist allowed, "In the year of our Lord" to be on it? Would an atheist signed such a document? One can then conclude that the founding fathers all believed in God and it was formed with God in mind.

Side: No
aveskde(1935) Disputed
1 point

This is taken from the original Constitution. Would an atheist allowed, "In the year of our Lord" to be on it? Would an atheist signed such a document? One can then conclude that the founding fathers all believed in God and it was formed with God in mind.

Did you know that the founding fathers were all pagans?

I have proof!!!

Monday comes from old english Mōnandæg, meaning Moon's day.

Tuesday from Tiwesdæg, Tyr's day.

Wednesday from Wōdnesdæg, Wodan's (Odin) day.

Thursday from Þūnresdæg, Thor's day.

Friday from Frigedæg, Frigg's day.

Saturday after the Roman god Saturn.

Sunday from Sunnandæg, Sun's day.

There you have it, PROOF that the founding fathers were pagans, after all would a non-pagan agree to refer to the weekdays according to the names of gods he doesn't worship?

Side: yes
Phreekshow(246) Disputed
1 point

Actually that was the way the term was used! PERIOD. Had nothing really to do with religion. That was the way official documents had to be dated at the time. I do not beleive in God yet I still use the money of this country, still say the Pledge of Allegience to this country and believe in the right for Americans to worship. Has nothing to do with me being religious or not. These are things that I cannot change and therefor why would I try? There were 2 VERY important Founding Fathers who did NOT believe in God. Thomas Jefferson and Ben Franklin, both the brains and the glue of the idea of America. Probably the 2 most influential and highly regarded and smartest of the Founding Fathers as well. They both knew and clearly stated the dangers of America becoming a theocracy! So your point about the Founding Fathers is Hogwash. Ben Franklin is a personal hero of mine and had amny, many quotes against a religious country!

Side: No
Thewayitis(4071) Disputed
0 points

The sins of the father also the sins of their offspring. Think about what you said for a moment. To label the founding fathers as all pagans, because their ancestors were pagan is just plain crazy. No proof have you offered, just ramblings. Make sure your kids and grand kids, and so forth pay for your mistakes as well.

Side: No
bradoflv(1) Disputed
1 point

Nice try! As it was a standard convention for the time to use such language it says NOTHING about the beliefs (or lack thereof) of those signing this document. Using your ridiculous, intellectually and morally bankrupt logic, the fact that I use U.S. currency MUST mean that I too am a a "believer".

Side: yes
-2 points
-3 points
KChihuahua(2) Disputed
3 points

You cannot possibly be stupid enough to believe anyone "worships" the dictionary or the encyclopedia.

Side: yes

I don't believe it, I have the same proof that you have that God doesn't exist.

Side: yes
iChrispy(2) Disputed
1 point

Atheists have faith in science because it can be proved, unlike the blind faith theists have in God. We do not "worship" the dictionary and encyclopedia! We use them, as theists do, because there is proof that their information is correct; there is no proof that the Bible is correct. We can be as loyal as theists can be. There are Atheists that are unloyal, but there are also theists who are not loyal. Religion, or lack of it, does not define whether one is patriotic and loyal to their country.

Side: yes
Thewayitis(4071) Disputed
1 point

Can science be proved? Some people believe mankind has never been in space, prove them to be wrong. Have you ever been in space? Then how do we really know they have been to the moon? It takes faith that the scientific community isn't yanking our chain. Science cannot be pr oven by the average person and so you merely believe it to be correct. When the only proof is somebody else's conclusions then there is a lack of proof. You cannot prove but the basics of science, that gravity exist, etc. Knowing science exist on a higher level of thinking is proof that their ideas and theories exist.

Side: No