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Debate Info

8
10
Yes No
Debate Score:18
Arguments:10
Total Votes:20
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 Yes (4)
 
 No (5)

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Girl4Justice(31) pic



Is collective punishment in the classroom fair?


Yes

Side Score: 8
VS.

No

Side Score: 10
2 points

In many situations, including the classroom, where a group of people with a common goal are gathered, collective punishment can, and almost always does, develop a self regulating code of practice enforced by the majority.

Forced discipline by one's peers is the best form of maintaining order as, in the classroom it is an early illustration of 'the few' having to conform to the accepted and required standards of the majority, or, in short, democratic rule.

A self regulatory system of control in the classroom removes most of the responsibility for applying any unpopular punishment processes from the teacher and this in turn reduces the development of a ''them and us'' mentality.

I'm certainly not advocating any form of physical force or intimidation, but a clear indication by the majority to the rouges that their disruptive classroom behaviour is unacceptable.

This can be demonstrated in many ways including Boycotting the gutter snipes.

Side: Yes
seanB(950) Disputed
2 points

------ "In many situations, including the classroom, where a group of people with a common goal are gathered, collective punishment can, and almost always does, develop a self regulating code of practice enforced by the majority." ------

Casuistry. You assume that the classroom is a place where every person has a common goal, and the inference from the way in which you have worded this, is that you believe this to always be true. In fact, it is not. And even when it is, it is likely only true only insofar as authority deems their personal goals common to the classroom. (I, the teacher, and the government which governs me, have decided that you, the children, must spend time in a classroom, whether you want to or not. You must learn. This is therefore our common goal). Such a position is in fact tyrannical, not unitarian. You imply by proxy of your first assumption that such a goal can be self-justified. I argue that forcing children into educational scenarios against their will, teaching them information which they do not find interesting, nor have asked to learn, is not self-justifiable: it requires justification outside of itself. There must be moral and social justifications for this (which, of course, there are many of), however, even when there are justifications, those justifications must be scrutinised in the context of their application. It is for instance, justifiable to forcibly educate children on the premise that without education they will not be able to gain monetary income for their self-sustenance, however, the argument can also be made that education itself is a form of self-propagating the values which maintain the status-quo which allows impoverishment in the first place. It is the circle of indoctrination begetting indoctrination. And there is a very strong argument to be made for adopting educational policies which allow investigation outside these established norms, particularly in political and economic discourse. As always, dissent is the greatest form of protest, and children, like adults, ought to have the right to it.

------ "Forced discipline by one's peers is the best form of maintaining order as, in the classroom it is an early illustration of 'the few' having to conform to the accepted and required standards of the majority, or, in short, democratic rule."

"Order" in social contexts is a relative term. One person's "order" is another person's tyranny. And this distinction, and the right to express it, is what underpins and sustains true democracy. What you refer to sounds much more like forced conformism, which leads to some sinister mutation of democracy: ochlocracy derived from the unjust use of authority. The teacher, though he or she knows many students to be disinterested dissenters, punishes the group as a result of the dissent of one individual. Thus, even though much of the group may be dissenters at heart, their focus then becomes the student responsible for dissenting. They no longer dissent, for fear of the punishment, and they use the dissenter as the scapegoat for their woes. Dictators use the same tactics, all over the world. In a true democracy, the few should never have to conform to standards which are fundamentally unjust, nomatter the will of the majority. There are things we hold to be illegal and there are things we hold to be frowned upon. Murder is illegal, but nonviolent dissent, in its worst light, is no more than frowned upon. It is not illegal to dissent. We would not expect adults to contend with being told that they must sit in a room for six hours per day, being force-fed information, told when to eat, told when to pee, when to leave, without ever having had any say in the process. Why should children, by justification of age only, have to endure what adults will not? That is not democracy.

Further, it is a fundamental requirement of a truly democratic society that the status quo is challenged, if only by individuals retaining their sense of individuality and their own identity. This exact premise is succinctly illustrated in the way in which Americans will refer to themselves as "African-American", "Italian-American", "Irish-American". The very fabric of democracy rests upon individuals' rights to freely express opinions without suppression or fear of institutional reprisal. These freedoms are of course, today, becoming ever more tenuous. Better that we raise a world of freethinkers and champions of rights than a world of conformers and cowards.

------- "A self regulatory system of control in the classroom removes most of the responsibility for applying any unpopular punishment processes from the teacher and this in turn reduces the development of a ''them and us'' mentality."

Wrong. A them and us mentality is immediately created, either between the students and the teacher (as the students see the punishment of the many as unjust), or between the students and the dissenter (whom the students wrongly see as the cause of their punishments). What you describe only exists in an alternate universe where all children are rational and thrilled to be schooled.

------ I'm certainly not advocating any form of physical force or intimidation, but a clear indication by the majority to the rouges that their disruptive classroom behaviour is unacceptable.

Who's to say the majority don't agree with the dissenter? Again, you're assuming that most or almost all of the students WANT to be there and WANT to learn. That's a very big assumption to make. When I was in school, most students did not want to be there: they'd much rather have had the playgrounds and fields than the pencils and books. The job of a good teacher (much like many of mine were) is to inspire, not to dictate. A child learns much better when he or she buys into what the teacher is doing. Like any form of childcare, teaching requires empathy and consideration, and the ability to utilize methodologies which are contextually appropriate for each individual child. Punishing a group for the faults of their peers is woefully old-fashioned: it does not work. Any developed country recognises this. We don't punish an entire community because one member of it committed a crime, for good reason.

Side: No
Antrim(1287) Disputed
0 points

You did a tremendous amount of typing when the general gist of your embarrassingly juvenile counter argument could have been abridged with just one word, namely ''gobbledygook ''.

Even though your head is clearly full of mad dog's shit do try to understand that the common goal of those attending a school class is to gain knowledge. Shame you didn't know that many years ago, but alas it's too late now.

The rest of the drivel which you have spewed out doesn't even warrant consideration.

Were you an idiot from childhood as a result of contracting one of the more severe, brain damaging social diseases from a paedophile family member?

You have too much time on your hands, try getting out more and don't forget to keep taking the penicillin.

Side: Yes
2 points

The first reason is misbehaving students don’t care if others are punished for their actions. Actually, they prefer it. It means that they don’t have to suffer alone. So, in all honesty, this is ineffective.

The second reason is collective punishment gives students a reason to misbehave. If you know you’re going to get punished for showing up in in the classroom, then why don’t you break some rules? I mean, you’re going to get punished anyway, where is the incentive to behave?

The third reason is collective punishment damages the relationship between the teacher and the well-behaved students. Even if they choose to behave instead of misbehave, they will still feel the sting of injustice. They know the consequence is not only unfair, but unjust. Of course, these students will resent the real culprits, but they will resent the teacher more.

The final reason is, if I am not mistaken, the goal of punishment is to correct and redirect the actions of those who are in the wrong. If so, then what is the goal of punishing those who didn’t do anything wrong? Is it to correct and redirect the actions of those who are in the right? To teach them to misbehave? Is this really what you are striving for?

Side: No
2 points

No it's not, but the threat has a use. If you're trying to find the culprit, scaring the class into giving them up in order to avoid punishment. Although sometimes when the class doesn't believe you're being serious you'll have to follow through, sadly.

Side: No