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Human nature is neither good nor bad exclusively; human nature is both good and bad completely. You can't know goodness without knowing ugliness. Nature works out because of the opening up of action oriented possibility. The answer is in the positive.
you only exist if you believe you exist and then your morals are only subjective to your own perversions and everything you mean is meaningless and everything you do is wasting time and you are dust in the wind and this is all lies.
"Good" and "bad" are both subjective human constructs lacking basis in actual reality, which inherently means that subjectively we are always both and objectively never either.
Whilst I would agree with you that in good and bad "subjectively we are always both", however, when transferred into action (actual reality) they become singularly objective, either one or the other, good or bad.
The action exists objectively but "good" and "bad" are still only subjective projections of value that we assign arbitrarily to the objective action. The action is not objectively "good" or "bad" because there is no such thing; we only think it is.
If we consider the dictionary definition that subjective being of the mind and our thinking as opposed to the object of thought as a goal derived from thought or emotions, it therefore presumes that we derive our sense of good and bad from our moral and ethical social mores and yes whilst thought and emotions are subjective they represent the values of civilization over thousands of years so have become objective over time.Our laws are an example of this as the objective reality that represent the values we place upon good or bad according to our nature.
The subjective is anything which exists strictly as a conception of the human mind, and regardless of whether it is a widely held conception it still remains as such. You are also assuming a level of moral homogeneity over time and across cultures which simply does not exist. Furthermore, you are conflating the objective enforcement of the moral concept with the moral concept itself
There is nothing particularly interesting about semantic miscommunication, nor either to semantic distortion and misrepresentation. You are clearly disinterested in continuing to defend your interpretation, however, and to be honest this is a semantic road I have gone down with others numerous times now to limited effect... so I am willing to part ways without resolution on this one as well.
I understand the concept perfectly well. I am asking you to defend its validity as an objective phenomenon in the realm of ethics and morality. You appear either incapable or unwilling to do so. Either way, continued failure on your part to produce a rational or evidence beyond the mere naming of a concept constitutes concession of the point.
I observed that failure to move beyond reiterated assertions to actual analysis or evidence would constitute a concession of the point. I never indicated that there was anything serious at stake to lose, only that you were not really debating and therefor not winning the point in question.
I cannot recognize the truth of an assertion because it does not constitute proof of truth. I also never said it mattered to you whether I agreed or not.
I am not sure what your point was about exploring the "edges" of morality, but I assure you that not only have I presented a considerably more thorough and defined view on morality than you have but that it is not especially new within philosophy and ethics. Nor does being at the periphery of commonly accepted narratives render something invalid, despite your dismissive implication to the contrary.
Neither objective creation nor destruction are moral actions themselves, no matter how much subjective morality one attempts to project onto them. The same can be said of enthalpy, order, and chaos. Also of scrambled eggs. I have already explained why this is. You, however, have not explained why or how the objective can be quantified in the objective moral terms you also have not proven exist.
An informed deduction based upon your continued failure to do so is that quite simply you cannot substantiate any of your assertions on the matter. I see no reason to futilely continue trying to elicit any substantive reply from you, and have little intention of responding to your next round of assertions.
You wish good and bad had no basis in reality. In that scenario, you are automatically excused for anything and everything you have done, said, and thought wrong. You are responsible in your fantasy of non-defined reality for nothing....every moment of your time means nothing in the end of your fantasy.
Good and bad has no basis in reality; it is a mathematical concept being weighted on scales, therefore, I am accused by those mathematical concepts by man. Everything I've done, said, and thought. I create my own fantasies and my definition of reality. Every moment of my time means something. Your fantasies are manifested by your actions and I may be prosecuted. As well as mine and to you prosecuted. That is opinion at its finest my advisory.
To the contrary, actually. I think that if objective morality existed it could improve circumstances markedly. However, upon review of what actual evidence exists regarding human genetics and neurology and the utter lack of evidence pointing to any objective morality I have reached the rational conclusion that morality is not objectively real.
In that scenario, you are automatically excused for anything and everything you have done, said, and thought wrong. You are responsible in your fantasy of non-defined reality for nothing....every moment of your time means nothing in the end of your fantasy.
I am a determinist as well as an amoralist, and because free will is rather a necessary component to culpability and thus responsibility it is an accurate reflection of my views to say that I also do not believe in responsibility. That said, I am entirely of the view that accountability remains both legitimate and necessary. Your assumptive prejudices about my personal character are not accurate, nor are they a valid form of refutation to my argument.
I'm sorry, I can't read this gibberish. I find it extremely boring watching a person trying to convince themselves that they are smarter and better than God.
There is no reason to try to convince myself of my superiority over something which I do not believe exists. Consequentially, I made no such effort towards that end. You would know this if you read my statements, but as you yourself confess you could not do that. I would suggest that boredom has very little to do with your inability, however, and that the real reason you cannot take criticism of your views seriously is that critical thought is antithetical to your beliefs. It is natural for people who feel threatened to dismiss others offhand with casual insults rather than meet the challenge head on, so I take no personal offense.
The reason you want to convince yourself that you are superior to God is that you do not want Him to rule over you, you do not want to obey Him and you want to enjoy your sin in whatever way you feel like enjoying it. Your pride alone, even if you do conduct yourself in a relatively good and moral fashion is an offense to God and separates you from Him and I really think you are proud of yourself and I'm sorry to say it's dumb. To talk like you have the right to stand in front of God and say He is not there is just plain foolish and if you don't surrender to God and accept His offer of peace through the blood of Jesus Christ He shed for your immoralities, you will pay for your immoralities in Hell, forever unable to change the things that you have said, imagined, and done. You need God's forgiveness so He can forget those things and not hold you accountable in death and Hell.
You should feel threatened by your own impending death if you are not forgiven of all you have done, said, and thought that was wrong. You should be threatened because you are guilty and need God's forgiveness for the threat of death to be removed. God removed that threat from me by taking my death and conquering death because the grave did not have the power to hold him like it will hold you if you take it on yourself which is what you are doing.
God is trying to reason with you to bring you into agreement with Him so He can pardon you rather than condemn you. God loves you and you need to believe it and stop being angry at Him. He'll fulfill all the desires of your heart if you will trust Him. That's what He likes to do, but He can't do it if you insist on standing there denying He is there and denying He has the right to rule over you. You are asking for death and God is already giving it to you and pleading with you to let Him remove it from you be believing He took your place in death already and is risen from the dead.
God loves you and so do I and I hope you live long and prosper well in this world, and I hope you enjoy it if this slow dying is the best you are going to have.
Your conclusion that morality is not objectively real is nothing but trying to excuse your own immorality. Your decision is not rational at all, it's self-deceptive and the verbiage you use is an attempt to elevate your intellect above your morals so your excuses are in your mind justified and you believe you are not held accountable for your immoralities even though they are taking you down in the corruption of death which is the corruption of immorality in your soul written in the DNA of your genes. You are not living in reality, you are dying in reality and trying to convince yourself that it's not real. You need to wake up before you wake up in Hell. Jesus Christ who is risen from the dead will be your awakening if you will repent of your immoralities and believe He paid the price of them in dying in your place so His blood covers your immoralities and in His resurrection you can receive Him and God's forgiveness. Denying God is moral, denying He is there, denying there is right or wrong in reality will not get you out of it.
My conclusion that objective morality does not exist is founded on the utter lack of evidence that it does exist. I am not trying to avoid the immorality of my own behaviors because I fundamentally do not believe in immorality to begin with; what would be the point of trying to evade something I do not perceive as existing?
I am also not attempting to justify anything because I do not believe any justification is necessary for anything. I have already explained that I do believe in interpersonal accountability based upon objective consequences.
My compliments on your usage of the language to accurately express your beliefs. Because you are reasonable, you should understand that by your own denial of culpability and your own denial of recognition of objective morality you are declaring that you can do anything in the name of Hell that you feel like doing at any given time as long as you feel like it's worth it because you believe there is no Hell to hold you accountable in death. You are only trying to get yourself out of the trap you are in by talking and it's not going to work.
While I do not believe in either culpability or morality, I do accept accountability as a valid necessity.
As I have already explained: I am not a nihilist because I reject your god or hell, but rather I reject them because I am a nihilist. You are viewing this entire matter from a self-centric perspective that assumes my primary premise is the rejection and avoidance of your views. It is not.
It is safe to assume that you are a sinner the same as me because you are. You probably do good most of the time overall, but you are still a sinner and I don't have to leap to any conclusions or make any allegations to know it's true. I'm simply stating some facts of reality...we are both polluted glasses of water with a poison in us that is killing us so no matter how much good we do we have still gone bad and are bad and that badness in our bones is killing us.
Everything you have ever said, ever done, thought, or imagined in every moment of your time was done in time God gave you and for which you are indebted. We have all done wrong, we have all sinned against God, and we all owe Him a debt we can never pay because nothing we can do will undo the things we have done. There is going to be a reckoning. God Himself came as the Son sent by the Father to pay in full for so God can be satisfied our debt was paid and we can be pardoned from Hell and given eternal life. When the day of reckoning comes, I know I'm forgiven and I will not be condemned because the Judge took my punishment. My evil deeds will be brought into the open, my rewards or denial or rewards decided, and then all of my wrongs will be wiped away and forgotten in Heaven because Jesus took them on Himself and left them buried in the ground when He came out of the grave.
Jesus took your death and He will bring you out of it into eternal life if you will trust Him. Talk it over with God, He is reasonable. Believe Him and trust Him and be saved from Hell.
Yes accountability is both legitimate and necessary...because God is good. Life means God is good. The meaning of life is that God is good. God is good all of the time. All of the time, God is good....that's the meaning of life.
Again, I want to congratulate you for being a rare person who is able to frame this self-justifying belief system in a reasonable way...erroneous, but reasonable and grammatically correct so it can be logically and rationally discussed. Most people who hold your views can't get past cheap insults and never come close to composing structured sentences which are clear in meaning. I'm pleasantly surprised to find your writings engaging. You were using cheap insults at first, I'm glad you left that stuff behind.
You are refuting your own argument and claiming to be exempt from responsibility because your argument cancels itself out as if it cancels you out. That's the atheistic hope in death, to be let off the hook of responsibility.
My views are not self-justifying because I do not believe in the necessity of justification as you do. Nor are my views beliefs as nihilism is fundamentally the negation of belief.
If I was guilty of "cheap insults" earlier the same can certainly be said of yourself towards me, so perhaps we can both be grateful that we moved beyond that.
In what way does my argument negate itself? Simply asserting a logical inconsistency does not demonstrate that it actually exists. And again, you seem confused about my views; I do not find hope in death nor do I seek to evade accountability although I categorically reject the notion of responsibility.
I entirely agree. Good and bad is actually a mathematical concept filled with variables such as, does it help progress, does it save, does it hurt, does it take away. It's actually black and white. Meanwhile, in the real world when a meteor hits the earth and does everything "bad" it is just a natural occurrence. Good and bad is a man made concept and all therein is neutral and natural it just is what it is..
I am not sure I understand what you mean. I agree that "good" and "bad" are strictly human conceptions, but am a bit confused by your statements pertaining to the mathematics of "good" and "bad" which seem to be more attuned to objective considerations rather than subjective value projection. Could you please clarify what you mean?
Hmm, the best way to clarify what I mean would be that everything is looked at in the world as good or bad by human judgement and good and bad are subjective and abstract principals. What is good to a mafia hit man isn't good to a saint. All of which are working on a number system depicting degrees of good and bad. If I say "Devil worship is bad because it deals with black magic, rape, and torture" We would throw three weights on the justice scales against said thing. The Word "and" is key there. It's the English equivalent of addition.
Furthermore, the same type of mathematical language is found when addressing scale. "The Tzar bomb was '1000 times' bigger than those dropped in Hiroshima and Nagasaki." The key word here being times is the English equivalent of multiplication.
Smoking would still be considered all good and healthy if it wasn't found to be cancerous and addictive.
I more or less understood what you meant about the mathematics. What still confuses me a bit is whether you think the mathematics considers only subjective consequences, only objective consequences, or both. Are you observing that subjective morality exists on a scale? Or that morality can be objectively assessed? Or something else altogether. It seems like "good" and "bad" might be getting confused with other concepts such as harm and benefit, practical utilitarianism, etc.
I am not intending to receive any particular answer. I am genuinely trying to understand your point. If that is your point, then that is that; if it is not then I would rather hear what you actually think.
I tend to take things literally. When you said that you thought that was the answer I was intending to receive I took it on face as an implication that I was trying to get you to answer a certain way. Obviously I was not understanding you... which would be why I was clarifying instead of debating you in the first place.
We are prone to think the worst when things happen so there must be a lot of good in the world to prevent the worst case scenario happening all the time.......?
Very good, a kernel of truth. Evil is restrained in the world by goodness. God uses goodness to restrain evil...sometimes His goodness alone, sometimes the goodness of good intentions of people who in reality are not pure and tainted by evil like we all are.
The fact that you can do something good does not make you good. We are all like what should be a glass of pure water, substance of life but polluted with a fatal dose of poison. No matter how much good is in us, the pollution that is in us, the evil, the sin, kills us...we have all gone bad and doing good can't fix it.
Anticipating potential setback and harm is an evolutionary device that has promoted survival and well-being. It most likely has no bearing on the balance of "good" and "evil" in the world.
The first links to the generic YouTube page. The second links to a video highlighting 33 cherry picked exhibitions of people being moderately decent and mostly to other species. Only 6 actually involved humans helping other people, 4 of which would have been completely unnecessary if a lot of other people had not been creating the situation to begin with, and only one of which involved anyone being in any danger in which case all the "good Samaritan" did was slow down and point. Consider me unpersuaded by this "evidence" that most people rush to help someone in danger.
P.S. Just because I am cynical about human nature does not mean I do not do nice things for others. How "good" of you to imply otherwise though.
A baby comes into this world entirely self-centered. Born innocent because it cannot understand good and evil, but born bad, dying from the moment of conception because evil is in it's genes. We are all gone bad.
Stop feeding it and see what happens. Let it get cold and see what happens. Take it's toy away suddenly when it's playing and see what happens. Stop smoking dope and try to be realistic. Babies are born entirely self-centered, all that matters to them is their own comforts and they demand that whoever is around them cater to their needs or they will throw a heap big whining cry baby fit....and they usually get what they want, don't they?
If you think a baby has no concept of self, maybe ......wow...how many abortions have you had or encouraged? abortion is murder.
Even in the womb a baby will scream silently with fluids rather than air in it's mouth, when a murderous doctor sticks something in to dismember it. And you are still going to try to tell me that human nature is good?
Stop feeding it and see what happens. Let it get cold and see what happens.
That proves it has survival instincts, nothing else.
Take it's toy away suddenly when it's playing and see what happens.
Try not giving the baby possessions and try to claim it has a sense of personal ownership.
Stop smoking dope and try to be realistic.
Only if it is a joint effort :P
Babies are born entirely self-centered, all that matters to them is their own comforts and they demand that whoever is around them cater to their needs or they will throw a heap big whining cry baby fit....and they usually get what they want, don't they?
Comforts? Food, warmth, water, those are not comfits, those are things they need to survive, and they whine if they do not have them.
If you think a baby has no concept of self, maybe ......wow...how many abortions have you had or encouraged? abortion is murder.
Where is the logical progression in that? A fetus CERTAINLY has no concept of self.
Even in the womb a baby will scream silently with fluids rather than air in it's mouth, when a murderous doctor sticks something in to dismember it.
Citation?
And you are still going to try to tell me that human nature is good?
you never said it is good or bad? So you really don't know what you are talking about?
It's bad. Human nature is like a glass of water which was pure and good, but had a fatal dose of poison mixed in. All of the good water cant' make the water good because the poison ruined it all.
We all have the poison of evil in us, we are all evildoers, sinners, all gone bad and getting what we deserve for it. God loves us and will forgive us if we believe He paid for us through the death of His Son, God Himself taking our place to pay for our evil, so our evil can be removed from us through His resurrection which He will give us if we receive Him personally, for real, from God, in honest communication. You can talk to God and take Him at His word....quit believing all the devils who say it's too good to be true.
you never said it is good or bad? So you really don't know what you are talking about?
It's like you are determined to be belligerent. I don't believe human nature is either good or bad.
It's bad. Human nature is like a glass of water which was pure and good, but had a fatal dose of poison mixed in. All of the good water cant' make the water good because the poison ruined it all.
We all have the poison of evil in us, we are all evildoers, sinners, all gone bad and getting what we deserve for it. God loves us and will forgive us if we believe He paid for us through the death of His Son, God Himself taking our place to pay for our evil, so our evil can be removed from us through His resurrection which He will give us if we receive Him personally, for real, from God, in honest communication. You can talk to God and take Him at His word....quit believing all the devils who say it's too good to be true.
And you are back to repeating the same shtick ad nauseum.
I accurately stated your belief, showing I followed your wording well, listened well, and you call me belligerent? And you don't know if human nature is bad? You are a stinker the same as me, and it's bad. Why don't you just admit it?
I'm repeating the polluted glass of water analogy because it is a pretty good portrayal of human nature, and intellectual midgets like you seem unable to grasp the simple concept.
I deal in reality, facts, not self-deceptive creampuff stuff in which a trickster tries to convince himself that he's a good person, good being better than a bad person for whom Hell would be home if anybody goes to Hell.
The truth of the matter is Reality 101, we are all polluted glasses of water, all dying from sin, and all worthy of Hell because human nature is bad. God is good, we are bad, and that's why He is living and we are dying. He gives life.
you never said it is good or bad? So you really don't know what you are talking about?
That is being belligerent.
And you don't know if human nature is bad? You are a stinker the same as me, and it's bad. Why don't you just admit it?
Why would I admit something I do not believe? Again, I do not believe human nature is bad OR good.
I'm repeating the polluted glass of water analogy because it is a pretty good portrayal of human nature, and intellectual midgets like you seem unable to grasp the simple concept.
And you are back to being belligerent and insulting people because they do not share your theological beliefs. Ironic, really. But I will repeat myself: I do not find your analogy valid because I do not believe in the existence of original sin.
I deal in reality, facts, not self-deceptive creampuff stuff in which a trickster tries to convince himself that he's a good person, good being better than a bad person for whom Hell would be home if anybody goes to Hell.
No, you deal in your theological beliefs, which is normally find, but you are being a complete ass towards anyone who does not share your beliefs.
The truth of the matter is Reality 101, we are all polluted glasses of water, all dying from sin, and all worthy of Hell because human nature is bad. God is good, we are bad, and that's why He is living and we are dying. He gives life.
The truth of the matter is that you are incapable of doing anything other than stating and restating your theological beliefs. You are not debating, and you have come to a debate website to proselytize and insult people. It is pathetic, and you should leave.
I have offered an excellent analogy showing human nature is bad, and many logical, factual, and realistic supporting arguments. You pretty much do nothing but insult me, and your personal preference of being rude over exercising your brain to discuss the debate like an adult should be more than enough for you to know your nature is bad the same as me who you are trying to prove is not as good as you. We are both not good, there is no good, no not one. Human nature is bad and God is merciful so He gives us time to breathe His air as a gift. You argue against Him because your nature is bad and He is good. You are getting what you deserve, refusing God's offer of pardon and forgiveness. I hope you change your mind about the value of your sin....and I don't have to name your sin specifically, you know what it is and you know God hates it because it's for nothing but your self-serving pleasure and ego and totally against God's right to rule over you which you can deny but you cannot deprive Him of. Your own death proves it and you deny it and what good are you?
I have offered an excellent analogy showing human nature is bad, and many logical, factual, and realistic supporting arguments.
No, you haven't. You have offered your theological beliefs in the form of an analogy, and some claims that have been thoroughly rebuked.
You pretty much do nothing but insult me,
I did not insult you until well after you took it upon yourself to tell me and others what our beliefs were. I have no tolerance of patience for people to behave as you do.
and your personal preference of being rude over exercising your brain to discuss the debate like an adult should be more than enough for you to know your nature is bad the same as me who you are trying to prove is not as good as you.
From the very beginning I have discussed the debate with you. Every debate I have come across I have started by debating with you, and in every instance you were thoroughly incapable of actually debating. Instead, you lied, told people what their opinions were, and repeated the same theological beliefs over and over.
We are both not good, there is no good, no not one.
There is no good or evil.
Human nature is bad and God is merciful so He gives us time to breathe His air as a gift. You argue against Him because your nature is bad and He is good. You are getting what you deserve, refusing God's offer of pardon and forgiveness. I hope you change your mind about the value of your sin....and I don't have to name your sin specifically, you know what it is and you know God hates it because it's for nothing but your self-serving pleasure and ego and totally against God's right to rule over you which you can deny but you cannot deprive Him of. Your own death proves it and you deny it and what good are you?
I just love how you use theology to enact your little power trips. It is entirely self serving, and if there is a god, I'm fairly sure they would see through it.
If a person is bound and determined to prove that they have the right to exist outside of the fire of Hell, there is nothing to debate...just let them go try to prove it. Why waste time arguing with a fool?
I would say good as everyone has good in mind but they sometimes they can choose whether they want to be good or bad.. but everyone has good at heart unless you are a terrorists..
You can choose to do good or bad because bad is in your blood, in your bones, in every fiber of your genes. You can choose to do good because there is still something in you that is like God because He created us in His image. It is His desire for us to be good that values us as worth being redeemed by Him....to show that He is good. We have gone bad and God will change us to be good forever in eternal life if we believe on Him as our Savior and receive Him by faith as He is, risen from the dead, Jesus Christ.
Doing good does not make you good. You are gone bad no matter how much good you do. We all went bad and death is in us because of it. Only God is good. Your standard of being "good" is an attempt at self-justification trying to exempt or eventually excuse yourself from punishment.
Humans are naturally social animals, and morality is built into us. This morality can be restricted to those whom we view as "human", and therefore groups we don't view as fully human can result in the brunt of it. Humans, at our core, are just animals, and work on many of the same principles of social primates. Do we question the morality of a band of maurauding chimps, or promiscuous bonobos? This is the "nature" aspect of the "nature vs. nurture" argument- it is in our instincts as a measure of evolutionary self-preservation.
Some humans are psychopaths or sociopaths. Does their existence not prove the rule, by being an exception to it? These are people who have inherently bad natures, and they are perceived as being inhuman. The average person does not exhibit these tendencies.
Mary Shelley's Frankenstein has a lot to say about the inherent good and evil of mankind. She seems to be pointing out that man is good, but society can produce great evil. That love breeds love, and rejection results in hatred and violence. Rejection can only hurt when there was love in the first place.
Humans are inherently good, which can be corrupted by flaws, 'sin' and societal influence.
That's exactly what I think, Humans are born good and as time passes they are corrupted by society. Outside influences, for instance, society and custom, are responsible for deviations from natural and healthy development in humans.
In Yale University, students have tested babies' minds on whether they are good or bad. The results they have collected state that even the youngest of minds know what is right and wrong, and an instinct to prefer good over evil, since they are at their most innocent age, they have no evil intention so, our intuitive responses or first instincts tend to lead to cooperation rather than selfishness.
On the other hand, People never hear about a person who kills just to kill. There is always a reason to do it... and yes, usually done when at the age of an adult because that is when humans are most corrupt and damaged with society.
Human nature is neither good nor evil. Human nature is the amalgamation of our evolutionary instincts and survival tactics, which is morally neutral.
Another question is how do you define "good" and "evil" in this context? The most obvious idea is that good= baking cookies for your neighbor and evil=stalking them. Intuitively, we know that one is right and one is wrong. But which of these two actions is the natural tendency?
Evolutionarily, it would make sense that we would seek out our neighbor in a friendly and social manner, in order to widen our support network. It would also make sense for us to keep a close eye on them if we mistrust them or view them as a threat.
Because perception is inherently subjective, human's natural inclination towards good or evil is also entirely subjective.
I venture that we are asking the wrong question, and that good and evil varies by the individual.
It really isn't. You don't pay any attention to what I say, so you declare it is self-contradictory (without ever explaining how) because you never have any legitimate response to it.
You are arguing that human nature is good while you are calling me pathetic and acting like a jerk? So where's the good in that, oh human? God made man good, perfect, and he went bad, fell from being good into being corrupt, gone bad. That's why you are acting like a jerk and you see me as pathetic. Bad.
If I tried to think through anything you say, it would make my head spin in confusion. You are a pathological liar, and to try to think your confusion through can lead only to a short circuit of the brain. I'll pass on trying to understand your methods. When you start being honest about how you got hurt and messed up mentally and emotionally, and start thinking maybe God really does love you and care enough to fix you...maybe I'll talk to you then.
I don't know what you are talking about, but whatever it is I know you are lying because you have not stopped lying since the first time I saw you talking.
"The debate is valid, I have offered validations of the fact that God loves you and I invite you to explain why you believe God does not love you. If this is too much of a challenge to be considered acceptable for this site, I would have to say it's a small-minded site, with all due respect."
It is human nature to fight to survive. It is human nature to try to save another human in danger. There are those whose human nature is twisted, but the vast majority are compassionate. Over centuries I believe the survivalists would win out over the "twisted ones". I also believe that injecting a "god entity" that simply MUST be followed associated with "rules" that are set up by the most passionate humans following that entity leads to an abundance of "twisted ones", as in the Crusades, and more recently, ISIS ... etc.! Left alone, I believe human nature and compassion would win over religious dogma, and IS, however slowly. It's just that someone keeps tossing the love of some "god" into the mix and screwing it up!
yeah, right. Your world ruler, the anti-Christ is coming to give you what you want if you are here long enough to see it. If you are not here long enough, you will get what you want forever being separated from God by your sin in the fire of Hell where all sin belongs, including yours....and you can blame only yourself though you will probably blame everybody but yourself most of the time forever in the fire....of course I am assuming here, based on the way you talk, you will defy God all the way through the finalization of your death. I hope I'm wrong about that. I really do feel sorry for my enemies....and you are indeed an enemy of God and me both.
I think we are fundamentally self-interested. However, as a consequence of our natural equality, self-interest tends to makes us cooperate with one another and be "good."
The perceived concepts of good and bad can be somewhat complicated. If a man shoots his mother-in-law from a distance of 1000 yards he will be judged to be a good shot, but not necessarily a good person.
There is no such thing as good or bad. He made a shot that connected. That is what it is. Man has no right to judge. He is nothing more than a person who made a shot that consequently resulted in his mother in laws death. Could have been gods will for all you know.
enthalpy and the 2nd law of thermodynamics have the answer.
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the universe tends toward chaos.
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only thru WILL can order be created and maintained.
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humans are pushing a rock up hill all the time trying to do good in the world... while NATURE is working to destroy it, tear it down, disorganize it... constantly.
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so human "nature" is to do the work of the natural environment and help tear things apart.
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only the creative ppl want to bring order and beauty to the world... we are the "good" ones... but it is unnatural for us to do this.
Sometimes you are not very far off in skyfish outerspaceland
Add to this that human nature needs a new anti-entropic will, a sinless nature ingrained in order to eliminate the chaos of entropic tendencies which lead to death and you are getting somewhere.
Human nature is gone bad no matter how much beauty we desire or achieve...it's all tainted by the entropic effects of sin which destroys, it's all polluted like that proverbial glass full of pure and perfect water with a fatal dose of poison added to it. Man's will cannot remove that poison from his nature. Only God's will can restore beauty while removing entropy. God did not intend Creation to be victimized by entropy. He created all things perfect to be perfect forever. The disharmony of creatures who corrupted themselves to rebel brought entropy to Creation...in nature it is called entropy, in human nature it is called sin and it destroy, breaks everything down after God created it to as good.
Creative people are no more good than any other people. Doing good things does not make you good. They are all polluted by the life-destroying entropic effects of sin. There is none good. Human nature is bad.
an "it" is a created thing. God is a person, He is the Creator. If you are going to do nothing but insult Him, I'm not going to talk to you. This will be the last time I will overlook your insults of the God I love who loved me when I was a hater like you.
God created everything for Himself to enjoy. He knew what it was going to cost Him to make creatures like Himself with free will. He knew some of them would become proud and love the power He gave them and desire the admiration which only God deserves.
He knew they would incur His wrath as they stood up against Him and for themselves, and He knew that to justify keeping them in creation as sinners He would have to pay for their sins Himself. You are created by God forever. God loves you and you exist forever. Will it be with God in heaven or without God in Hell? That's your only options if you believe it or not.
If there is anything likable or admirable in you, it is only because God put it in you and God alone deserves the credit, the honor, and the glory for it. As a sinner, your tendency is to elevate yourself apart from God and you are an affront to Him. He loves you and does not want to give you want you deserve, which is Hell, so He gives you time. He paid for your sins with His own blood so you can be forgiven if you believe that He is risen from the dead and receive Him as your Savior. You can discuss this with God right now in prayer and He will hear you if you will agree with Him on these points.
Again, if you will not refer to God as He is, God who is a person in masculine form, the Father of us all, I will not bother again trying to reason with you regarding His love for you.
If I see you one more time refer to God as a god, or an it, or a he-she or anything other than who He is, God, I'm not going to respond to you again.
Another little power trip, I see, trying to project yourself as being equal to or greater than God.
"Adhere to my beliefs or I will insult you" is all you have done here. Why should I be so bummed if you, someone who has admitted they are not going to debate and are here with the express intent of ignoring the purpose of this website, won't respond to me? Especially considering how you have said that before, and yet still find the need to lie about my beliefs and repeat the same shtick over and over?
Come on now: You will respond again, and nobody will be surprised.
Oh, by the way, by referring to your god as a person you have insulted him/it more than I ever have.
The myth of the motivated individual is a human fallacy and is not an appropriate analogy to understanding the world's order. It is rather "figurations", that is, networks of dependencies. i.e. the economy or the ecosystem
concepts of good and bad as we see them are entirely human inventions, so it would be quite absurd if the collective view of what we call bad happened to describe ourselves. however that is the case.
children are not born with an inherent sense of right or wrong. infants have difficulty recognising between objects and people and treat them as a duality, furniture, to explore in a new world they have been brought into and do with as they see fit. it is only by recognising other personalities similar in some personal way to ourselves do we empathise with them and become considerate. to act as if all moving objects within certain criteria are people worthy of morality is what it means to be part of a society.
however this only entails triggers for knowing when to act with moral judgement, the question of whether a distinct set of moral responses exit at birth or are naturally taught is something i can't answer, and have never heard to be previously discovered. however suggestive points would include infants choosing protagonists in a puppet show or children without sufficient tutelage of right and wrong occasionally acting wrongly.
despite this indirect representation of human morality, it still carries weight, as the issue of not knowing the basic situations in which to act upon with moral consideration is, in my opinion, a large part of the moral code. otherwise, morality could be retracted at any time. (and is, for rocks, plants (and for some, many animals and humans (particularly those people with uncommon characteristics)))
could you at least make the effort to attempt to read and point out what you disagree with? or do you just paste that statement whenever you see my name. you are one of many ambassadors for your opinion. if you don't represent it well you tarnish it and potentially ruin the progress of others working towards the same goal
Take a glass of pure water, put a fatal dose of powerful poison in the water......then drink it and see if it's good water.
That's us. We are polluted. There is none good, no not one. All have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. We all have the poison of sin in us and it's killing our bodies and will destroy our souls in Hell if God does not remove it from us. In order to take away our sins, He took them on Himself and paid for them with His own blood as the Son of God. He paid in death for us so we don't have to pay in Hell. He rose from the dead bodily offering full pardon to all who believe on Him and call on God in His name to save them. He gives a new spirit, the Spirit of God, Jesus Christ Himself living in all who will receive Him as their Savior and have His promise of eternal life.
Why people reject God's offer of eternal life through faith in His blood amazes me. No matter how plainly and simply it's said, they just can't (better, won't) see it. Men love darkness rather than light because their deeds are evil. We are all gone bad and need to be born again as children of God to stop being children of Hell and the devil.
It's not a question of good water it's a question of pure H2O or not; which is a mathematically findable percentage.
There is no good and there is no bad. Infact, that was the original sin mentioned in the book of genesis. Only god knows what is good or what is bad. Man is not supposed to know what good and bad is. It's a concept that only we can create. Explained by the eating of the apple of the tree of knowledge of good and evil which merited adam and eve's eviction from the garden of Eden. Since you're bringing the bible into question in support of the wrong side. We have no right to judge because there is no good and evil. the symbolism of the tree is knowledge and thought which cursed us to death to begin with . apparently only god knows that or he wouldn't have created the devil... the advisory of man. Thought.
The rest of your comment is nothing but unrelated religious banter and ranting that holds no merit.
This guy, or girl, or whatever it or they are, does not know the difference between good and bad and yet they expect you to believe they are intelligent people rather than talking monkeys.
you and your stupid math. 1 1/000000000000 th of one percent impurity makes the whole glass of water impure. You are impure because your soul is polluted by sin and you are stinking corrupt and have one foot in the grave and the other on thin ice which is being melted by the fire of Hell. You need to get saved while you can....if you can. Maybe God has given you over to a reprobate mind and you won't be saved, maybe you will always be against Him and against yourself.
You don't have to read my comments. You don't want to hear the truth. Why don't you just stop reading me? Leave you alone???....I've pretty much stopped reading your stuff anyways.
If you feel like I'm bothering you, it's not me bothering you, it's God bothering you because you are fighting against Him and you are wrong for being that way.
You hold no merit because you hate God......which proves human nature is bad.
Try to stay on topic. My feelings about God and religion have very little to do with this debate. I also have never claimed to "hate god" I cannot hate which doesn't exist; just the fact that it doesn't.
I'd appreciate it if you stop shoving religion down other peoples throats simply because they don't agree with you. I believe Jesus once stated that praying and believing in the father in secret is better than preaching it to the masses any day. Mathew 6:6 "5"When you pray, you are not to be like the hypocrites; for they love to stand and pray in the synagogues and on the street corners so that they may be seen by men. Truly I say to you, they have their reward in full. 6"But you, when you pray, go into your inner room, close your door and pray to your Father who is in secret, and your Father who sees what is done in secret will reward you. 7"And when you are praying, do not use meaningless repetition as the Gentiles do, for they suppose that they will be heard for their many words.…"
You just think you are smarter than God, don't you? Say He's not there and that automatically makes you smarter than Him. Your stuff is so twisted and evil I don't even read it anymore.
Don't use ad hominem attacks to justify your points and here's a little tid bit for your scrawnly Christian brainwashed mind. I do believe in God... MY GOD... not your god... not the god from the bible. I believe what ever the fuck I want to believe. I don't trust that stupid fucking book because in the 13+ billion years that this universe is said to have existed it's only been around for less than a second when you look at the scale of it all. Not only that, but it turns good, honest people with a brain into mindless drones like you. I pity you deeply.
. Ad hominin gibberish is all you have, it's all you ever use against God and against me, far outweighing your ability to communicate reasonably and for that reason I'm not reading your stuff any more. Maybe after a few days I'll read something you posted to see if you show any maturity in it, but at least for a few days I won't be reading your posts.
3. Ad hominem is gibberish to you because you don't know what it means.
4. You're a liar.
5 Ad hominin gibberish is all you have, it's all you ever use against God and against me, far outweighing your ability to communicate reasonably and for that reason I'm not reading your stuff any more.
Good get the hell out of here.
6.Maybe after a few days I'll read something you posted to see if you show any maturity in it, but at least for a few days I won't be reading your posts.
Don't count on it asshole. Screw you and the whore that spat you out of her demonic womb.
You and your stupid "probably" this or "probably" that. You go with that probably idiocy if you want to. See where it gets you. Go ahead, idiot, I simply can't feel sorry for you when you are choosing self-destruction and I know where you are going being willfully ignorant. I know. There is no "probably" for me. You can know the truth, but you love darkness because your deeds are evil. I know where I'm going, and who paid the price to get me there.
You are so busy explaining your self-justification that you cant' listen and I'm wasting my time trying to talk to you. Go ahead and claim you won the argument on all points, go ahead and see if Hell if real and see if God rules over you. I'm sorry I can't help you.
You and your stupid "probably" this or "probably" that. You go with that probably idiocy if you want to. See where it gets you. Go ahead, idiot, I simply can't feel sorry for you when you are choosing self-destruction and I know where you are going being willfully ignorant. I know. There is no "probably" for me. You can know the truth, but you love darkness because your deeds are evil. I know where I'm going, and who paid the price to get me there.
You are so busy explaining your self-justification that you cant' listen and I'm wasting my time trying to talk to you. Go ahead and claim you won the argument on all points, go ahead and see if Hell if real and see if God rules over you.
A man who gives his body for sexual exploitation to another man, and/or exploits another man's body sexually is an abomination. If you think it's more offensive for me to say that than for the perverts to do what they do, you are an idiot....and that is only one of about one hundred proofs by your own words of your idiocy.
I disagree... having studied neuroplasticity I can tell you for a fact that a child does not know how to lie. Infact, the ability to lie is an acquired skill derived by others teaching it to the infant. Today, there are many sources of bullshit: Religion, Television, story books, history, school, video games. Every last bit of it has lies spread across its entire demeanor. Your children are brought up in a world of lies. Therefore, the child will learn how to lie, one way or another; weather it be subconscious or conscious. By telling a lie not known to be a lie is a lie nonetheless.
right, cuz from that it would follow that someone taught the teacher and that just goes in a circle so doesnt make cents cuz were all babies at once point but lying sometimes saves good people's lives, so lying isn't inherently bad.
Edit...I still like the glass of pure water polluted and turned deadly by a small amount of poison.....that's what we are, all gone bad, polluted, full of deadly poison (sin) which is killing us as it stinks up things around us.
People who inherently disagree with your religious opinions are not "dodging" anything. Your analogy is only valid or powerful if someone adheres to your theological beliefs. Those that don't have no need to "dodge" anything.
The analogy is powerful only if you hold the beliefs you do which I decidedly do not. The only real power your analogy has is to create a delicate facade of legitimacy for your unsubstantiated and non-demonstrable beliefs. As a tool of persuasive articulation it falls quite short; you are merely begging the question.
You are chewing a religious cud yourself, thinking you are justifying yourself for life when in reality you are opposing yourself and sealing your own condemnation for what you are, gone bad, a sinner. That's your choice and you are a religious zealot pretending that you are the god for you and there is no other and no greater god than you for you. It's the dumbest religion imaginable.
I am talking about reality, not religion. God loves you and wants you to believe on Jesus Christ and be saved from your sin and know God's love. If you will trust Him, He will make all things new for you and you will be a new person...but I guess you just want to be the same old sinner you have always been and you are allowed to do that but the cost is loss of all goodness in Hell.
You are running out of time, your propaganda will fail you and all who support it. Jesus Christ fails nobody who trusts Him, never has, never will.
You are chewing a religious cud yourself, thinking you are justifying yourself for life when in reality you are opposing yourself and sealing your own condemnation for what you are, gone bad, a sinner.
If you had bothered to actually read his posts, you'd now he rather clearly doesn't seem to believe he needs a "justification for life".
That's your choice and you are a religious zealot pretending that you are the god for you and there is no other and no greater god than you for you.
He has done nothing of the sort. You are now lying.
It's the dumbest religion imaginable.
You are lying about what someone believes and insulting them for it.
I am talking about reality, not religion
No, you are talking about your religion and claiming it is reality.
God loves you and wants you to believe on Jesus Christ and be saved from your sin and know God's love. If you will trust Him, He will make all things new for you and you will be a new person...but I guess you just want to be the same old sinner you have always been and you are allowed to do that but the cost is loss of all goodness in Hell.
Then you are proving his point.
You are running out of time, your propaganda will fail you and all who support it. Jesus Christ fails nobody who trusts Him, never has, never will.
You are the only one involved here that is spouting propaganda.
The only thing you are proving is that you want to be a little devil. You show it well in your mindless icon pic of a guy sitting in fire as if it does not bother him. Hell might not bother you now, but if you end up there, it's fire and you won't be sitting there like it's nothing. You need to be saved before your death is finalized and the blood of God in Jesus Christ which He gave as payment for your sin testifies against you who are choosing to pay for your own sin as a sinner forever.
That is utter nonsense. I appreciate one small scene in a Disney movie, and you think that means I want to be like a mythological figure that I do not believe in? That is the only thing that is mindless here.
Religion (noun): belief in and reverence for a supernatural power or powers regarded as creator and governor of the universe (American Heritage Dictionary).
Nihilism (noun): rejection of all distinctions in moral or religious value and a willingness to repudiate all theories of morality or religious belief (American Heritage Dictionary).
Nihilism is antithetical to the very notion of religion. You clearly do not grasp my philosophy or you would not be trying to erroneously argue that I have a religion. I do not believe myself a god, nor do I believe in justifying one's existence. I do not believe in free will either. I do not believe in personally engaging in propaganda on behalf of my views because I see no reason to. I am merely expressing my views in response to your proselytizing, and you are merely failing to respond directly to those views which constitutes your tacit concession.
You are trying to annihilate yourself, thinking you can do it without punishment in Hell. You are indeed practicing a religion, trying to convince yourself that you are good. All "isms" are religious belief systems if they include recognition of God or not. Your "ism" is a religious system in which you make yourself god to yourself by denying God's place as God. God will allow you to do that, but He will not allow you to go unpunished for your never-ending rebellion in which you cannot possibly anihilate yourself and you cannot possibly annihilate God. Insisting He is not there can never annihilate Him. In Hell you will not be able to know His love, even if you do know He is there which I doubt you will. You won't be able to believe He is there long because there will be nothing good of Him for you to know there other than the fact that you are Created and cannot un-create yourself.
There is nothing to grasp in your philosophy. It's nothingness and it's dumb. You are making a dumb choice void of realism thinking you get to be uncreated in death. You are dying and can't be uncreated dying, dying does not end the fact that you are created. You didn't create yourself and you can't un-create yourself. No matter how long you make your speeches and claim that your "philosophy" is a love of wisdom, complex, valuable, deep, meaningful, expandable or contractible, it's just plain simply dumb.
I understand your philosophy better than you do, it's not philosophy at all...it's pseudo-philosophy and pseudo-intellectualism...a religion and you think you are the god in it.
You do not understand my philosophy in the slightest.
Nihilism is neither religion nor belief system, but a philosophy of categorical rejection antithetical to all systems of religion and belief.
Nihilism is not "dumb" simply because your still unfounded and unsubstantiated beliefs say so, which is effectively the only argument you seem able to advance against my views.
Nihilism cannot seek to annihilate that which it does not view as existing, and makes no attempt to.
Nihilism is not nothingness. It is a rejection of artificially constructed systems of value and existence. You only perceive it as nothingness because you cannot conceive of actual reality without viewing it through your religion.
Nihilism is not a love of wisdom, complexity, value, deepness, meaning, expanse, or contraction... and I have never claimed that it was.
I never claimed length of argument had any relation to veracity, nor does it. Were your insinuation true, though, it is worth noting that your arguments in this thread have generally been longer than mine.
Meanwhile, you still have not provided any evidence or non-circular reasoning for your assertions. Given your similar failure to address my points without misconstruing them, it seems you are simply incapable of or unwilling to have a critical discussion on the matter.
It's a religion the same as atheism. All "ism's" are religions; and "ism" is something you do or believe religiously. You are being religious denouncing religion. Your religion is a religion of denial...and the only thing being denied is you; you are denying yourself from life and all you have in reality is one foot in the grave and one foot melting on thin ice over the fire of Hell where you won't be able to deny yourself any longer because the heat won't allow you to deny it's reality. If you think you can prove me wrong in this, just wait and see; all you can do is wait and see or rush things along so you can see faster than you will if you wait as long as you can.
Your philosophy is childishly simple...it's nothing but anger against God, twisted into all kinds of phony intellectualism by which you think you are outsmarting God. It's foolishness...there's nothing to it. You are trying to write volumes about NOTHING. Nihilism is the love of death, and it's all you have. You are in death, thinking you are living and fooling yourself telling yourself that you are good or good enough or whatever lies you choose to go with at any moment.
You are just like an atheist...if I don't agree with you and act like you have something to teach me, you will say your intellect is above mine and claim that I don't understand. You are only fooling yourself. You might fool some other Nihilists or Atheists, because they enjoy being fooled the same as you do. You won't fool me.
I simply point out reality and you can accept it or not. You are under penalty of death, dying, on death row imprisoned in your body and on the verge of being executed at any moment. You deserve to die the same as me. This is reality. We do not deserve to live or we would not have to die. In Christ who conquered death, I have eternal life. In yourself as a sinner, you have eternal death. Nihilism is NOTHING other than trying to convince yourself that you have the right to exist outside of the fire of Hell. You are being fooled to believe lies and you are loving it...and I'm sure you will deny everything I'm saying because your religion is the religion of denial.
The suffix -ism has nothing to do with faith or religion; it is used to form the name of a system, school of thought, or theory based upon the name of its subject, object, or founder. I have elaborated at greater length elsewhere regarding this fallacy of conflation.
I have repeatedly stated, substantiated, and received no direct counter to my arguments that: (1) my rejection of your God and His Hell is purely incidental to my philosophy; (2) my nihilism is not about death any more than it is about life; (3) I do not claim to be good or even adequate; (4) that we die is not evidence that we deserve death; and (5) you still cannot found any of your claims beyond your own assertion.
My observation that you do not understand my philosophy has been thoroughly substantiated elsewhere. You never addressed that analysis so my point stands, and I am disinclined to repeat myself again.
Dying is proof that you do not deserve life. Hell justifies your existence throughout eternity as a sinner. If there were no Hell, there would be no place for you to exist. God did not create you for the nothing that you imagine and love, He created you forever because He is good. You don't get out in death.
Nihilism is stupid, and you are stupid for thinking you are smart by going around in nowhere circles with it.
You're not saying anything worth repeating. I could barely force myself to read through it. The piles of denials and accusations are quite tedious. You haven't substantiated anything other than your pride and don't seem to care how self-contradictory your statements are.
What do you think you are proving with your arguments against God? All you are proving is that you don't know what you are talking about, and you don't see any reason why you should know what you are talking about.
I will not discuss your beliefs on your terms because you won't give them up when by your own words your beliefs are self-contradictory. It's pitiful what you are doing to yourself. Your beliefs in reality are nothing but a childish temper tantrum against God in which you have practiced using grown-up words...and it makes no sense.
You go on with your nihilism and see where it gets you. I'm covered by God's own blood which He gave as payment for my sins , He is risen from the dead and I am forgiven by Him in His resurrection. He is my life, I have eternal life. You have eternal death and it's taking you down to Hell by your own choice of rejecting God's offer of pardon through the blood of His Son.
Your confidence is in nothing but death, and you are asking for it, and that's dumb. Sorry. You're gonna wake up in Hell if you don't wake up and believe God can and will save you from it before your death is finalized.
I read every word. It's nothing but his own proclamation of greatness. I have answered all of his points in detail before. I understand his "ism". It's insanity and I'm not interested in entertaining it. The guy thinks he has the right to exist outside of Hell when NONE of us do except God give us that right. The only time that guy has to exist outside of the fire of Hell is now, IF he is not gone from us forever and residing in that fire now.
I'm learning it's a waste of time to let an atheist or agnostic lead the discussion. They are blind leaders of the blind and I don't belong in their procession toward death. I'm probably wasting time talking to you also, but God loves you and I do believe in miracles so I do believe you can come to know God's love for real, personally between you and Him in the special way that only you can know because He made only one of you and He wants you to know His love and forgiveness. That's why He came down from heaven, humbled Himself in the form of a man, and died for you, paid your price, so you don't have to pay that price as a sinner forever unable to cleanse your record. God want's you to know His forgiveness, He wants you to know He is good and to say it. I say it all the time because I know it and it's good to know that God is good. God is good all the time.
Y'all do realize that as sinners, we all deserve to die now, right? Every moment of time outside of Hell is a gift from God we do not deserve and cannot earn. Ya'll see the plain simple truth of reality, right?
I have denied nothing without cause and levied no allegation without substantiation. I am not surprised that you find critical thinking tedious. I have made no prideful statements and have repeatedly observed that I do not think I am better than anyone else in any way. You have identified no contradiction, only loosely alleged their existence.
My arguments against the probable existence of God prove that God is probably non-existent. Your inability to refute the actual content of my arguments to that effect demonstrates that you do not know what you are talking about.
I have never conceded that my views are contradictory. I have also presented them calmly and remind you that they do not derive from a rejection of your God, so your "temper tantrum" allegation is unfounded.
I intend to remain a nihilist until a better philosophy presents itself. An entirely unsubstantiated delusion that you are covered in the blood of a man who died two thousand years ago for sins you cannot even prove exist and that you will therefore live forever is not a logically superior philosophy.
It is not my burden to prove you wrong, although I have already presented an argument to that effect elsewhere which you never directly addressed. As the claimant, it is your burden to prove the legitimacy of your claims which you have consistently failed to do.
Your cause is nothing but trying to justify yourself so that you are fooled into believing you have the right to exist as a sinner outside of the fire of Hell. You do have that privilege as long as God allows it, but you do not have that right. Don't be a fool forever for crying out loud. Get saved while you still can. Repent and believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved.
I take all points above not addressed as conceded, at which point there is really is compelling reason for me to respond further since those concessions are considerable.
And you are sure that you have the right to exist as a sinner outside of Hell. The only thing I am conceding in matters of faith is that you will not believe being outside of Hell as a sinner is a privilege and not a right until you find yourself unable to escape from the fire. If you repent and believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and are saved from Hell, I will concede that I was wrong on this point.
I simply gave up on trying to reason with you after you repeatedly contradicted your own beliefs and refused to admit it, clinging to the notion that it does not really matter because you believe you are justified by your own existence and cannot be confined in Hell. You're a fool pretending to be intelligent, only fooling yourself and maybe fooling other fools.
You have never indicated a single contradiction in my logic. I have already explained that I do not think I am justified in anything because I do not believe in justice. I have also already explained that I do not believe in absolute certainty, but understand things as being more or less probable. On the basis of available evidence I am entirely confident that Hell is less likely to exist than otherwise. These are not new observations, but points you have consistently failed to address. You conceded them elsewhere long ago.
And you are sure that you have the right to exist as a sinner outside of Hell. The only thing I am conceding in matters of faith is that you will not believe being outside of Hell as a sinner is a privilege and not a right until you find yourself unable to escape from the fire. If you repent and believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and are saved from Hell, I will concede that I was wrong on this point.
You are avoiding the issue. The issue is that as a sinner you do not have the right to exist outside of Hell, you have no evidence that this is untrue. The fact that you are not in Hell now is not evidence that you have the right to exist outside of Hell. You are dying in this world, and eternal dying in Hell is where you are going in your pride. Your denials won't keep you out of Hell.
I do not need to disprove a claim which you have in no way proven to be true, although I have repeatedly presented evidence and rationale to that end which you have consistently ignored. I intend to desist from this exchange; it no longer interests me.
I concede that you hope to get out of reality in death, and you have no proof that you are real, and you have no proof that reality is real, and you have no proof that you have the right to live and you have no proof of having the right to exist outside of Hell. I also concede that your head is full of rocks and you are lost.
I concede you recognize no objective standard for determining right from wrong, and therefore hold no objective meaning for anything, including the definition of "concede".
I concede that you believe you are an illusion, you believe that you do not deserve to die and you believe that you have the right to exist outside of Hell. I concede that you cannot be talked out of your nonsense because you say you can't be talked out of it. So I gave up.
I don't even want to waste time with you any more. Nihilate yourself if you think it's good, that's all you are doing is killng yourself slowly and you are going to end up in Hell, idiot. For crying out loud, God loves you and you hate Him and love death and care nothing for yourself and i'm sick of trying to reach through your darkness of self-annhiliation.
You will note that I neither whined, nor dodged anything. I simply asked if you were ever going to do anything other than proselytize on a debate website.
I am doing nothing of the sort. I am not engaging your comments because you previously demonstrated that you will ignore any actual response I give, and then lie about those who disagree with you. You have done so consistently before, as you have demonstrated you are not here to debate in good faith.
I disagree on many fronts. Although, a good analogy you are forgetting gods divine plan. Everything is his will. Even you. Especially me. You don't know why I am here, but I will make it apparent in years to come.
I'm glad to hear it. If you're like me you're tired of these religious crackpots telling everyone they are shit and only a bible verse is good. If he exists and he scripted it all out like they claim than they can just shut their mouths because we are who we are for a reason.
If you are tired of it, why do you read it? I don't read your posts any more beyond the first few words. Your hateful bigotry against God and against Christians and against the Bible is not worth reading except for bigoted closed minded fools like yourself.
Cuz part of me hopes deep down inside you'll realize that if someone doesn't want to believe in your superstitions/faith than you'll start talking to them on a real intellectual level. There are Christian people I am very fond of because their not mindless cultists demanding the belief in their views.
I don't read your posts any more beyond the first few words.
Oh, but you really should. You'd maybe learn a lesson about humility and compassion and righteous anger.
Your hateful bigotry against God and against Christians and against the Bible is not worth reading except for bigoted closed minded fools like yourself.
You think I'm closed minded? what...a...joke.... You know what... I'm going to draw you a picture and post it here on create debate. I could use a good laugh.
You are no different than the people who crucified Jesus Christ and mocked Him while he suffered. You would do the same to me as they did to Jesus if you could. Why don't you admit it, hater?
You are no different than the people who crucified Jesus Christ and mocked Him while he suffered. You would do the same to me as they did to Jesus if you could. Why don't you admit it, hater?
And you believe you have any right to compare yourself to your saviour? Oh man, when this picture is done. LOL
This is exactly what Christianity is not. You are doing nothing but hurting the side you pretend to represent. This statement is completely ridiculous, and your behavior is coming off as completely unreasonable. If you truly wish to get your message across, you are failing miserably.
I can't help it if you hate the Truth. The message is God's message desiring that you come into agreement with Him. If you don't like it, then don't like it. They didn't like it when Jesus told them, and he said exactly the right thing in the right way to everybody he spoke to. They hated the truth and they crucified Him. You are one of those haters. I'll pass on your advice.
I have nothing against the message that we should find truth. The thing you have to do is prove that the message you are presenting is truly Gods word. I have no reason to take your word for it. So why don't you tell me why you are so sure that the message you have is true?
Your will is not God's will. You act according to your own will, and God will reluctantly punish you if you will not stop your rebelling against Him. It is not God's will that you be left in Hell forever, but you give Him no choice when you insist on being against Him.
I think you are smoking too much dope.....we are all bad, all gone bad, all polluted the same as a glass of water pure and fresh with a fatal dose of poison poured in. The poison is the evil in us which brings our deserved death for the bad we have done....and now you are going to tell me you haven't done that much bad that you deserve to die the same as me? Who are you trying to fool....we are all gone bad and we all deserve to die and the proof is the poison of death from sin in our bodies killing us.
For crying out loud, all I'm talking about is reality.
I admit that I don't listen much to what you say.....it gets tiring trying to figure out how and why you are twisting logic and putting together words with multiple mystery meanings....all of which amount to "I am justified to live". Your stuff is too illogical for me to read much of, sorry.
Remember what I said when I said God loves you and is trying to save you from Hell, and sent me here to cross you path and tell you directly that he does not want you to perish?
Remember??????? These words will haunt you when you remember them in your neverending death if you don't believe God to be saved from it. I've told you God's good news enough. I'm going to quit reading your stuff for a while, maybe forever. I'm sorry, I hope things change.
Remember what I said when I said God loves you and is trying to save you from Hell, and sent me here to cross you path and tell you directly that he does not want you to perish?
You have told yourself that as an excuse to yell at and insult people. It is arrogance, to claim to know God's plan.
I don't even read your stuff any more. Maybe some other day I'll check to see if you are talking like an adult and showing some respect, but I had far too much of your nonsense.
I happen to abstain from all mind altering substances, so your ad hominem accusation is not only uncalled for but inaccurate. Might I politely suggest you abstain from dismissing my views as the side-effect of copious drug abuse?
I do not think that anyone deserves to die or live anymore than I believe that good and bad exist. I try to minimize the amount of subjective interpretation I project out onto reality, and I would argue that that makes me far more in touch with reality. Your problem is not only that you assume that your worldview is singularly correct simply because you believe it, but that you continue to erroneously assume I share it at all.
Hahaha......that's a pretty good denial of drug abuse, and I'll take it as factual and true. Thank you for your entertaining and eloquent response. I hope you will take it as good humor when I refer to your ideas and beliefs about reality as stuff that pipe dreams are made of.
You think nobody deserves to live or to die? They why does everybody do both? Minimizing subjective interpretation projected out onto reality is turning you into a believer in intelligent mindlessness who can't even decide if you deserve to live or if you deserve to die even while you are under the gun being executed and have one foot in the grave and the other on thin ice melting over the fire of Hell.
How can you claim to be in touch with reality if you don't even know if you deserve to live or die? You deserve to live because God brought you into existence to live, you deserve to die because you have gone against and away from Him, and you can be forgiven because He loves you and took your place in death as the Man, the Son of God, Jesus Christ and is risen from the dead offering you forgiveness if you will believe on Him and trust Him to save you from Hell. You have no hope denying this is true. Your only hope in denying God's truth is that your punishment ends in death and your dying does not continue separated from God the way you are now forever in Hell's fire.
Referring to my views as the stuff of pipe dreams remains rather dismissive, and while I am not particularly offended by it I am also unlikely to take it in good humor.
Life and death are biological processes that occur regardless of the subjective meaning we project onto them. One need not deserve to live or die in order to do so. Nor need one think that they deserve life or death to desire or be averse to either. I do not prefer living over dying because I think I deserve to live, but because I am biologically programmed to have that preference; I need no further explanation or justification for this basic evolutionary drive.
Incidentally, I also do not place much value upon hope and consequentially am not motivated by it. Which is to say that attempting to persuade me on that basis will be inherently ineffectual. Trying to understand my views in terms of what I hope for will also be rather miserly in its returns.
Referring to your views as the stuff of pipe dreams is dismissive because your reasonings are attempts do dismiss yourself from guilt. I said it in good humor and did not expect you to laugh even though I did laugh. Did you know that the Bible says God will laugh at people who reason the way you are reasoning? Of course you will not take it in good humor when you are fighting against God and being destroyed in death while God is trying to get you to stop fighting against Him so He can save you from it.
Projecting subjective meaning onto a rock does not change it into a bird. Dying is dying and living is living, you can't be doing both at the same time unless God is living in you. The biological process of death begins at the moment of conception...it's only a matter of time before the process is over and God is there the whole time trying to get you to know Him and trust Him so that He can reverse that process for you to glorify Himself because that's what He created you for...to show that He is good, so He can enjoy having you in His Kingdom forever.
Nobody ever deserved to live (here, referring to your time before death is finalized as "living"...there is a semantics here which you are trying to insist is not real). We were all brought into existence by no choice of our own. This is a fact that is not subjective to anybody's opinion, though some religions teach differently. Death is against life, life struggles against dying....that's temporary. It ends. The temporary dying ends and the permanent dying begins if you are not given new life by God. Life and death are both eternal and cannot go together outside of time. The time you have is counting down to zero and then it just goes on and on with no counting down. God will give you life, eternal life now if you will enter into agreement with Him and take sides with Him against your pride. You are trying to stand against Him in pride and it's a losing position.
You are indeed hoping that death is the end of your problems. Maybe you think you un-exist in death, it sounds like that is where you think you are going with this discussion. If that were true, everything you say is entirely meaningless and useless other than for you to pass time until you die hoping Hell is not there.
Your being "biologically programmed" in dying does not have to remain unchanged forever. God can change that. God allowed it in hope that you would let Him change it so He can show His goodness in you.
Nothing I say will be effectual for you if you will not believe that God simply IS, and that He is a rewarder of those who honestly seek Him. I'm not trying to understand your views, I DO understand them and they are wrong. You are trying to tell yourself that your views are intelligent and intricate and not easily understood when in fact they are simplistic and wrong. You are arguing in favor of your own death as if it's a good thing that happens to you for the glory of evolution....You can't see the truth because you are purposely blocking it out because you are too proud to admit that God has the right to execute you in death because you are a polluted glass of water with a fatal dose of poison in your blood and you are angry at God for putting you in what you are calling an evolutionary drive which has no concern for your feelings. God loves you J. Goodnight.
You do not understand my views, as evidenced by your continued claim that they are derived from a rejection of your beliefs. As I have repeatedly explained, my rejection of your beliefs is purely incidental to my independently derived philosophy of nihilism. Every single objection you have against my perspective is a misguided conclusion based upon your fundamental misconception in this regard. Meanwhile, your own religious beliefs remain entirely unsubstantiated since no amount of reiteration of circular reasoning makes your claims any less fallible. It is not at all unreasonable for me to not adopt your views when you can provide me with no logical defense of those views.
You indicated elsewhere that you are no longer interested in engaging with me at this time. I confess that I too am disinterested in continuing in this exchange. Frankly, I do not think you are capable of grasping my views since you quite clearly have a preconception of what they are and why I hold them; it is increasingly evident that no amount of clarification on my part can ameliorate your determination to cling to those misunderstandings.
It was too sad for a while when I realized what you are doing to yourself with your beliefs. I fully understand your beliefs...they really are simple. Your problem is not accepting or rejecting my beliefs, your problem is that you love your sin and sinning more than you love life and it's taking you down in death to Hell. You are against God and that is sin...all your whole life is, is sin and God is going to get tired of you and let you have it if you wont' repent and believe on the Lord Jesus Christ who conquered death, rose bodily from the dead, and is coming back to rule the world and purge sin (which is in my body and me) and sinners (which is all you are) out of His Creation forever.
You bore me with your pseudo-intellectual gibberish. I really feel sorry for you, but there are billions like you in the world and some have enough sense to listen to God calling for them repent and believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and be saved from Hell......those are the ones I'm looking for. Time is too short to read your nonsensical false hope of self-annihilation in your tragedy of flawed logic. The nihilism you think is good is only the fire of Hell forever depriving you of everything good that God gave you. You are loving it and making a tragic mistake. I hope you wake up before you wake up in Hell.
If you understood my views then you would not believe that they come from a rejection of your beliefs. That you do assume that my views revolve around your beliefs marks you as egotistical. That you pity me for not adopting those beliefs, which you cannot prove, speaks to this as well.
Your confidence in your beliefs far exceeds the proof and rationale you have to warrant them; you believe completely in something you cannot prove at all. Small wonder that you cannot think logically on these matters; reason is anathema to any belief so lacking in evidence. You clearly need religion in order to find value and purpose in your life, and I would not wish it away from you. Nor will I pity you either; I have no need to validate my views or pride in that way.
sidenote....alcohol is a mind altering substance..do you abstain from that also? Pardon me from implying you were smoking dope. I have known some serious potheads who thought and talked exactly like you have been talking here...and some of them are still my friends and I tell them the same things I am trying to tell you.
Duh...did you miss the part about the polluted glass of water? Is that too unclear for you? It's truthful and you would do well to be honest about it. We are all bad, all polluted, none good. I never said I was good, did I? Try to stick to facts, please.
Poor word choice; polluted water is notoriously unclear. Tongue and cheek aside, however...
I did read the metaphor for your still unfounded belief system; constructing an analogy for your beliefs is just rephrasing the same belief in different terms without adding anything of substantive value. A metaphor falls well short of any standard of proof, so there is nothing for me to be denying beyond your unfounded assertion; that happens to be something I am quite comfortable doing.
Regarding your views on sin they do effectively culminate in a moral hierarchy of damned and saved people, even if they rest upon an assumption of inherent sin. The implication is quite clearly one of superiority over the non-religious, even if you would not put it in those terms.
Well.....if you feel I am claiming a superiority over you, maybe you are beginning to see the light. I have eternal life in Jesus Christ, He lives in me, He is my life, and He is going to rule the world and I will be with Him serving Him in His Kingdom for His honor and His glory forever, forever praising Him who took my place in death so I can be forgiven, justified by His resurrection. If you think you are in the inferior side of people who know what I know, maybe you need to learn something and quit being on that side. You are making the choice to be on the losing side and I will not be superior to you, I will simply be equal to you forever but forgiven, changed to be like Jesus and with Him in His resurrection and you will be changed to be like the devil with Him in Hell if you insist you have the right to stand while denying your Creator's right to rule over you. You will have the place given to you in eternal death if you insist it's good enough for you, and I will have the place given to me in God's forgiveness which I am in no way good enough to deserve, no better than you. I deserve to burn in Hell the same as you, if you feel inferior because of the things you believe you need to reconsider and start believing that God is reasonable and worthy of your trust.
You misunderstand me entirely. I absolutely do not feel inferior to you or your views. My argument is that the religious conception of sin asserts an unfounded moral superiority over the non-religious and other religious, but an assertion is not evidence of actual superiority.
The proof of the metaphor of the polluted glass of water is your own immorality, the same immorality that is in my flesh, and the same death that is being caused in you and me equally by the same poison in the polluted water.
Some people just won't accept proof even if they are staring into the barrel of the gun....and we are all staring into that same barrel if God is not there to get us out of it. I'm in the same boat as you except I'm forgiven and I'm going to heaven and I know God loves me as His child and He wants you to know the same.
Yes I'm rephrasing the same belief in different terms because it's easy to do, it's logical, reasonable, and maybe you will see the simplicity of the facts of reality and believe God and get saved from Hell. It's so simple a child can understand. I know seven year old children who are wiser than you with your polished eloquent denials of reality.
I reiterate than an assertion does not constitute proof. You can continue to reword your claims regarding morality, God, and salvation as long as you like but this will never constitute evidence that your claims are objectively valid.
Immorality does not prove the polluted water metaphor because immorality itself is an unsubstantiated assertion.
I cannot substantiate my existence to anyone other than myself, and to myself I may substantiate only my awareness of my self (per cogito ergo sum, Descartes). All else is a matter of greater probabilities rather than absolute certainties. This is a rationale deduction, and your dismissive attitude towards my views as insane is entirely unfounded; you fell this way only because you cannot accept a perspective so antithetical to your own.
Notably, your response does not repudiate my argument that reiterated claims do not constitute proof. Nor does it present any proof for consideration. Nor does it validate your original metaphor against my earlier critique. In effect, you still have no substantive response or evidence and have turned once more to personal attacks.
Do you expect me to accept a perspective as valid when it's wrong? The only thing you are substantiating is your own death.
You do not substantiate your existence. You did not cause your existence, you do not have the power to end your existence. It is not rationale to assume your existence ends in death, that is wishful thinking and it's insame. You are not God, even if you think you are God of you, if you think there is no God, or whatever you think...you do not have the right or the power to unexist yourself no matter how long your dying continues.
Human nature has gone bad and it shows in your flawed rationalizations. The proof of my reiterated claims is your dying. You are not living, you are dying. They are opposites. One is forever in life, the other is forever in death. You are trying to fool yourself into believing they are one and the same, and by so doing you are fooling yourself into believing God does not rule over you and you are your own master and you answer ultimately only to yourself as you are dying.
I don't mean for this to be a personal attack, but an attacks on your attitude by which you are committing a slow suicide and thinking it's a good way to go. This is me watching a dying man, knowing how you can be saved, and knowing where you are going if your death is finalized when you are fighting against your Creator.
Telling you that you are following systemized insanity is only telling you the truth. If you think it's a personal attack, have you ever thought it's because you are guilty?
Do you expect me to accept a perspective as valid when it's wrong?
I never indicated that I expect anything from you, nor do I. My statements are not made to convince you, nor with any attachment to eliciting a particular response; in this we differ.
The only thing you are substantiating is your own death. & You do not substantiate your existence. You did not cause your existence, you do not have the power to end your existence.
I presented a rationale as to why my awareness of my self is a substantiated certainty to myself. In fact, that is the only thing I substantiated with certainty. This does not mean that I believe I caused my existence or that I believe I have the power to end my existence; as it happens, I do not believe either to be the case since I am an evolutionary determinist.
It is not rationale to assume your existence ends in death, that is wishful thinking and it's insame.
I have read numerous studies on the conscious self and its relationship to the brain. I can observe that people die, that upon death there are no brainwaves, and that eventually too the brain itself rots away to nothing. It is not an unreasonable conclusion to draw from this basis that my self will cease to exist when I die. By contrast, there is no evidence whatsoever of any form of an afterlife in which the self lives on without the brain which produces it. My conclusion is entirely rational; the same cannot be said for yours.
I do not reject life after death because I desire my own final mortality. I have a human instinct for survival the same as most people. Reconciling my views on final mortality with my survival instinct was not the easiest course of action I could have taken, as you seem to imply; religion is much easier.
You are not God [...] no matter how long your dying continues.
I have stated explicitly and repeatedly now that I do not think I am God. I have never stated that I think I have the right or power to "unexist" myself either; I simply do not attribute my eventual non-existence to your God.
The proof of my reiterated claims is your dying.
The only thing that proves is that I am dying, which I have already accepted.
You are not living, you are dying. [...] only to yourself as you are dying.
I do not conflate life and death but view them as distinct; life is a state of existence and death is a state of non-existence. You, on the other hand, are fooling yourself into believing they are one and the same by denying your own mortality through your belief in life after death.
I don't mean for this to be a personal attack, [...] have you ever thought it's because you are guilty?
I use "personal attack" as common debate parlance; it refers to the logical fallacy of attempting to discredit your opponent based on their real or perceived attributes rather than discrediting their arguments. I do not feel threatened by your allegations regarding my sanity, and not only because I consider them invalid. When you focus upon me rather than upon my arguments you are not debating, you are just making noise.
You do not know any of the claims you are advancing beyond the claim that I am dying. You believe these things, and that is a very important distinction. No matter how strong your conviction in your beliefs they are still beliefs, not knowledge. You clearly think that the reality of death proves your beliefs, but every attempt you have made to draw that connection has been logically fallible.
The fact that you refuse to know does not mean I do not know. You can't know what I know because you refuse to know it. You don't know what I know because you refuse to believe it. The truth stands if you believe it or not, and I know it...you don't know it. You are willfully ignorant, and that's on you.
I have already repudiated this fallacious point at length elsewhere. I am disinclined to do so again now, as if you had any intention of making an actually critical response you would have done so by now. It is abundantly evident that you have no proof beyond your own convictions, which are ultimately not evidence at all to anyone but yourself.
There's a universe full of evidence, and volumes of history including the Bible full of evidence. You don't want evidence because you hate God and love death. That's on you.
I have already thoroughly addressed this as well; in short: nebulous reference to "the universe" does not prove your claims and the Bible cannot logically be proof of itself.
If you don't get saved from Hell, you will find yourself there with no way out and you will remember I told you the Bible is the Word of God and cannot be changed.
Again, if the only proof you will accept is to find yourself in Hell with no way out, that is the only proof you will get. You are fooling yourself for nothing but Hell.
I have argued with people like you, and I know you will not accept logical explanation which refutes your list of a hundred or two things which you will claim to be proofs that the Bible is not true.
I'm not going to get into it with you, if you want answers you can find them yourself. It's easy to research contradictions to your nimwitted compilation of God-haters which they post all over the internet, so you can see the truth of God's word.
The topic of this thread is about human nature, and I'm going to stick to it and ignore your desires to go off on tangents trying to prove you are better than God and too good to be confined in eternal death in the Lake of Fire where all sinners belong. You need to be born again, you need Jesus living in you by His Holy Spirit making God your Father, and that will take a miracle from God and I can't help you when you hate the truth and won't listen. This is why I banned you from "God Loves You (3)". It's a waste of time talking to you when you are bound and determined to prove you are too good for Hell...you are only going to try to take me and as many others as you can down with you. You may pull some of them down with you by encouraging their rebellion like your own, but my sins are forgiven and I'm going to heaven and I'm not going to waste time with you.
Again, my compliments for eloquence and logical composure of irrationalities. Most people are incapable of putting these beliefs of yours into any kind of grammatically correct expression...usually they have to resort to cheap insults against God and against people like myself who present reasons why He should be believed and trusted.
I appreciate the acknowledgement. Although, I must point out that if something is logically comprised then it is therefore not irrational. Might I suggest that what strikes you as irrational might nevertheless be held rationally by someone else?
Many people cannot comprise themselves with eloquence and many resort to cheap insults against those who hold divergent opinions; that is hardly unique to atheists or nihilists.
Lies can be logically composed so they appear to be true. Logic is only a progression of thoughts with no objective truth. Logic creates it's own truth to suit the person using the logic. That's why sodomites have convinced themselves that their perversion is justifiable, normal, acceptable. They use logic. Logic is nothing but you making yourself to be your own god to invent your own personal brand of truth. You have no means of discerning what is rational or irrational if there is no objective truth, and that's what you love your logic more than life and it won't get you out of death nor keep you out of Hell, and never get you out of Hell. Prove me wrong you fool....pardon me for being blunt, I'm trying to get you to wake up before you wake up in Hell and it's forever too late.
How does one repudiate an asserted logical truth, but with the application of logic itself? If a thing which claims to be logical can be disproved with logic then it was not truly logical. Logic has laws of proof, an internal system of crediting and discrediting ideas, which exist independent of those attempting to employ them.
I never stated that there was no objective truth, only that we are incapable of perfectly perceiving or conceiving it. What follows is not that we cannot reason, but that all reason is necessarily an expression of conditional, relative certainty. And again, I do not love logic more than life and I am not trying to avoid the death I know must come nor your Hell which I do not believe in.
Do not worry about offending me with your bluntness; you may have noticed, I am particularly fond of its expediency myself.
You are claiming superiority over God. You are being religious trying to make yourself the god for yourself to replace God and deny Him His rightful place as your Creator and Ruler.
I make no unfounded assertion when I say are dying and need to be saved from it, when I say you have eternal death if you do not have eternal life. If you do not agree with these statements, you are self-deluded and God will send you strong delusion because you love it and He loves you and will give you what you want except He will not give you His glory and allow you to be God. You can only be god to yourself in Hell, and even then your god-ness will be interrupted at times when your tongue is forced to confess Jesus Christ is Lord, and your knees are forced to bow at the sound of His name. God will have His name honored by every creature He made, including you if you like it or not. Reality 101. Keep your religion if you want to.
Not once have I claimed superiority over that which I do not believe exists. My philosophy also does not derive from my rejection of your God, rather my rejection of your God derives from my philosophy; your beliefs are a mere matter of incidental rejection to me.
Your beliefs are unfounded because you have not provided any evidence for any assertion you have made. All you have done is repeat your same circular reasoning, which undermines your claim rather than proving it.
Your failure to respond directly to my criticism of your polluted water metaphor as well as my observation regarding the self-righteous moral superiority complex inherent to your beliefs constitutes tacit concession of both points.
Liar liar pants are on fire. Your whole philosophy of logic is nothing but attempting to prove you are as good if not better than God in order to convince yourself that you are exempt from the Lake of Fire where logic can't relieve your suffering.
I have presented two logically validated counter-explanations which you have repeatedly failed to discredit. Simply reiterating your incredibly egotistical claims that my views revolve around your delusions does not prove anything. Done here.
when I talk about religion, it's about a persons attempts to convince themselves that they are exempt from Hell and not condemned in death...it's a self-deception.
When I talk about God, I talk about the Living God who Created you and He is a person, the Creator of all things and all people who always was and always will be God. He will be your Judge in death or your Savior in life. You will have eternal life or you will have eternal death. You have one or the other now, and if it's death that can be change only by God. Religion is man trying to change the reality of his death his own way, making it into something exempt from Hell. Death and Hell go together and will be united forever in the Lake of Fire where only the smoke of those in torments there will ascend forever and badness will be forever separated from God's creation and none of His creatures who never rebelled (angels) and none who were redeemed (people who's sins are covered by the blood of God in Jesus Christ who paid their price and received Him as their Savior by calling on God to save them in His name) will ever go against their Creator and there will never be another rebellion against God.
Quit trying to waste time by filling space. God didn't give you time so you can waste it.
Exactly what I'm talking about. You didn't even talk about the majority of what I was talking about. I don't need to be preached at because I am a Christian. You don't need to bring up religion at all times. And for the love of god don't bring up your religion in EVERY debate
Look at the people who are saying human nature is good, and you can see how good it is...a bunch of haters trying to say human nature is good....yeah, right. Earth calling.....and Hell has enlarged itself to consume more sinners.
We are all bad, all gone bad, all polluted by sin and it's killing us all and we need to be saved from it, God, Jesus Christ, is the Savior.. Creator who became our Savior.
You can point out fault in me spitting venom at me and tell me human nature is good? I'd rather have a pet rattlesnake than to have some of you "good" people anywhere closer than I can preach the truth to you and run.
You are a hater because you hate God and love death. You think death is your friend, and God is your enemy. God is good so He lets you think that way if you want to think that way. Your brain is short-circuited and the lights are gone out...there's only one tiny spark from God trying to connect with you to get the Light to shine and wake you up from the dead.
comeon now...if human nature is good, then you can't say I'm bad no matter what I do. If you claim to be better than me and that is what makes you good, there is always one better than you and He is God and you are polluted by evil and no good next to Him. He is good, you are not. I am not good, God is good. You and me are both the same. Why is that so hard to admit?
You cannot rid yourself of your propensity and tendency toward evil. You are not good. You are polluted. You can't make yourself good any more than a polluted glass of water can make itself pure...and don't try stretching the analogy by saying evaporation leaves the pollution behind because that would be an act of God....
and you are not a glass of water than can be purified by osmosis anyways.
I am trying to show God's justification which leaves you and me in the dust and in Hell if God Himself does not do something to remove the pollution of capacity for bad away from us. Simple, logical, reality 101. Let's face facts here, we are all dying and need to be saved from dying or we die. God help us for He alone can save us. If we won't be saved, we will go on in our useless "goodness" and be left in the garbage pile of Hell burning forever.
All people are bad. Doing good things all your life does not make you good, it only means you are bad but did good things. All the good things can't get the pollution of evil out of your soul. You can't make yourself into anything different than what you are...and that is gone bad and likely to be bad whenever you feel like you can get away with it if it suits your wants at the moment when you feel like doing it. I'm the same way, it's natural to be self-centered, to justify and excuse ourselves for the wrongs we do...that's the nature of evil, it's human nature, desiring to justify ourselves..
human nature is like onions, they have layers. but not everyone likes onions, so maybe human nature is like a cake, which also has layers, and everyone likes cake
what he's disagreeing with is that we need to be saved from death and Hell and can be saved by God the Savior. I am saved from death and Hell, I have eternal life through Jesus Christ the Living God, and you can too. What he is disagreeing with is his own salvation, choosing death over life. It's sad, and that's why it's hard for me to give up and quit trying to tell them God will save them if they will trust Him.
still dodging the polluted glass of water analogy. You are no better than a polluted glass of water. The evil in you makes you rotten and not good, no more good than that glass of pure GOOD water with a fatal dose of poison mixed in. The bad part makes what was good into nothing good at all. No matter how much good water is there, it's all tainted, ruined, and good for rubbish.
still dodging the polluted glass of water analogy. You are no better than a polluted glass of water. The evil in you makes you rotten and not good, no more good than that glass of pure GOOD water with a fatal dose of poison mixed in. The bad part makes what was good into nothing good at all. No matter how much good water is there, it's all tainted, ruined, and good for rubbish.
I have already addressed your analogy: It is only valid if one agrees with your theological beliefs of original sin and the Christian mythos. I do not, and therefore do not hold the analogy valid.
Now explain how your prevision characterization of a hypothetical person made them a "hater".
You are just like the polluted glass of water if you admit it or not. It does not matter if you agree with me theologically or not, you are what you are, the same as me, corrupt, polluted, imperfect, impure, dosed with fatal poison, gone bad.
Reality 101.
Disagreeing with my theology cannot change you from being fatally stricken, gone bad, physically rotten, corrupted, dying the same as me. It's in our genes, it's badness in our genes killing us no matter how much good we do...no mater how much good we do, it cannot remove the badness of our nature. You are stuck with yourself and the only hope of an atheist is that you will not be punished in death...it's a fool's hope.
Your inability to listen does not show me to be unable to have a conversation. Most of what you say is not worth listening to, I'm sorry. If you think what I am saying is not worth listening to, then stop reading it and stop trolling me, trying to suck me in to your feeble attempts to dominate the conversation.
I have responded to everything you have said, specifically. You have demonstrated in inability to do the same to almost everyone you have responded to. You repeat the same nonsense over and over, and insult people. You are incapable of debating, and have no reason to be on this debate website.
explain why you hate God and I will explain why a person who hates God is a hater. Saying you can't hate somebody who does not exist is a cop out, you hate him and you are a liar if you won't admit it.
Saying I can't hate something that does not exist is the truth. You are arrogant and claiming to know what I believe, because you are incapable of understanding that I simply hold beliefs that are not compatible with yours. You are taking the judgement of god for yourself in your arrogance and claiming to know the minds of others. It is clear that you use your theological beliefs as an excuse to enact little self-validating power trips.
You hate God. All your "explaining" proves it. You are afraid to admit that you hate God. You are on your own little power trip trying to be the god for you, denying God His rightful place as your Creator and Ruler because you hate Him and you live your sin all the way to death and Hell like a moth to the flame...that's why you picture yourself sitting in fire. Moth's are too stupid to know they are going to burn when they fly into the fire.
Since you are incapable of listening, I will repeat: I cannot hate that which I do not believe exists.
You are on your own little power trip trying to be the god for you, denying God His rightful place as your Creator and Ruler because you hate Him and you live your sin all the way to death and Hell like a moth to the flame...that's why you picture yourself sitting in fire. Moth's are too stupid to know they are going to burn when they fly into the fire.
Except I do not think I am the god for me. So you are back to arrogantly telling me what I think, and failing to do so, so that you can enact a power trip. You are playing god, in your own hypocritical fits of arrogant rage.
You are apparently incapable of being honest about your own words let alone being honest when composing them in complete sentences. You are only fooling yourself if you are fooling anybody...you may be fooling other people who are fooling themselves the same way you are fooling yourself. You sure are not fooling me.
Look at the hatred in your own heart, look at your own words hating me for speaking the truth. God hates evil, I hate evil...and you hate the truth. You need to repent and believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and be saved from Hell.
Pretending God does not exist is hating Him. You are doing your best to give Him the silent treatment, so you perceive Him as being silent when He is trying to draw you into agreement with Him regarding His right to punish you in eternal death in Hell, so you can know His mercy in that He gave His Son to suffer in your place so He can overlook your guilt and give you a full pardon, a new life from God, a new Spirit to be holy and live in Heaven forever.
Why do I think that if I say it the right way, it will click for you and you will see that God is good and He loves you? Why don't I just give up and let you go?
You hate God because you love your sin and don't want to stop doing it. In order to protect your feeling of freedom in sin and enjoying the temporary pleasure it brings, you think you have killed God by denying He is there. You are only fooling yourself, and blaming God or denying His existence won't help you if you wake up in Hell after He gave His Son to pay for your sins with His blood. The blood you are trampling under your feet will testify against you if you will not accept the fact that it was you who deserved that death and God took it on Himself to save you from Hell.
If you say God is not there, you hate God and you love death and you are getting what you deserve, and Hell comes with it and God is good for cleansing His creation and putting sinners away in Hell where they won't make any more trouble for Him and those who love, trust, and obey Him.
