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The term "normal" is pretty vague - what do you mean by that?
If you mean normal as in "something that naturally occurs", sure, it makes sense to study animals for that.
If you mean normal as in "it is acceptable behaviour", no. Studying animals tells us how the world is, not how the world should be. Many animals fight, kill, and eat one another. Does it mean that humans ought to do the same?
Whether or not animals display homosexuality shouldn't have any influence on the debate about human homosexuality, as morality is not something you're supposed to find by observing the animal world. But since some opponents of homosexuality say that it's wrong because it's somehow unnatural, it makes sense for others to dispute that by showing them how very natural and ordinary it is.
While the topic of this debate is meant to be an argument against homosexuality, in my opinion it actually harms homophobes more than it helps them. The whole "let's look at what nature is like" question only started because homophobes were saying that homosexuality is unnatural.
Seen in this light, it's actually the homophobes who are committing the error of thinking that what's "natural" is what's "right".
the fact that we have to look at nature, which is not nearly as intelligent as human beings, to judge ethnical issues. Thats repulsive. Im a christian and according to the word of GOd our mission is to KILL OUR NATURAL SELVES!
the fact that we have to look at nature, which is not nearly as intelligent as human beings, to judge ethnical issues.
I don't believe the debate creator was asking if we should look at nature to decide our morality. I think the idea was that nature can reveal to us how morality forms, and in the case of homosexuality shows us how typical (repeated) it is in the natural world which means that it isn't specific to humans and thus must be perfectly natural. This was always one of the chief arguments against it, that it is unnatural, but it isn't.
Im a christian and according to the word of GOd our mission is to KILL OUR NATURAL SELVES!
whatever man if you want to go ahead and look up to animals then so be it. They will lead the way for you. And if you want to get real picky, the animals who were used as examples of homosexual behavior had a survival reason to. Lions for example did it for closer bonds and trust pacts not long term homosexual relationships. There isnt one permantely homosexual animal. Heterosexual perhaps but not strictly homosexual.
whatever man if you want to go ahead and look up to animals then so be it.
That's not what I said. I said that we use animals as an example of how morality forms, how it evolves.
And if you want to get real picky, the animals who were used as examples of homosexual behavior had a survival reason to. Lions for example did it for closer bonds and trust pacts not long term homosexual relationships.
And so there's no reason that our inherited mentality could not have evolved to use homosexuality for other means? Tell me, how many children have you had? Or perhaps more specifically, how many women have you impregnated yet? I'll assume you've been sexually active since you're eighteen and most young men experiment in sex at around fourteen to sixteen years of age.
The point is that sexuality in primates, especially humans, is about more than reproduction and survival. Whatever homosexual aspects of sexuality we've inherited have long since evolved into something more than peer bonding, just as reproductive sex has evolved beyond its purpose.
There isnt one permantely homosexual animal. Heterosexual perhaps but not strictly homosexual.
Goats for example have a significant number of homosexual males, which is a problem for breeding purposes because when your business is animal breeding and you have a good breeding stock, especially a newly purchased prime animal which you wish to breed with your herd, having a homosexual goat is a loss of money since it will not mate with females.
This report is interesting because it suggests that most bonobos are bisexual. It would make sense since they engage in sex mostly because it's pleasurable, just like us.
You'd be amazed how many men and women are bisexual. Over the years I've men many younger and older men, as masculine and rugged as anything, yet they enjoy having sex with men as much as women. It made me rethink something I heard years ago which suggested that the vast majority of people are bisexual, with only a small percentage strictly heterosexual or homosexual.
There's a whole world out there, and it doesn't really fit into tidy packages.
I know I'm sidetracking from your argument, but I do agree with your point about bisexuality. Sexual orientation appears to be more of a spectrum than a strict black-and-white matter.
I suspect the main reason people think of gay, straight, and bi being 3 distinct categories is that a lot of people are afraid of ridicule if they start experimenting, so they stick to straight relationships or fantasies and assume they're 100% straight.
I wonder if anyone has done studies to see what the real distribution of sexual orientation is, rather than the self-reported distribution. e.g. Pick a random sample of people, show them straight and gay porn, measure how horny it makes them. The results will probably be very interesting...
um this is disgusting guys honestly this just scares me. First off the other guy was saying animals evolve towards bi and gay sex but this is not true. This has existed for a very long time. And remeber according to my christian faith the fruit of good and evil, and us eating it determined the fate of the world and our identity has human beings. We are lost and ingraved in sin. But there is a hope Jesus christ.
There is this study, that measured the arousal reaction of a sample of self-labeled heterosexual men when they watched heterosexual, lesbian, or gay porn.
It's not quite the same thing because this experiment was geared to test the hypothesis that men who admit to homophobia are more likely to be aroused by watching gay porn. This study, at least, confirmed that it is true.
Though, I do think there is probably a disparity between what a person likes in porn, and what they would actually enjoy participating in.
Yeah, enjoying looking at porn of somebody doesn't necessarily mean you want to do it with them. But I'm leaning towards thinking that your sexual orientation is what sorts of people get you aroused, rather than more specifically what sorts of people you would want to sleep with.
Here is my argument to those who believe that it is relevant...
Let's suppose that that it is relevant. We know that the best evidence so far suggests that homosexual behavior is uncommon with animals. So, that would mean that heterosexuality is in our nature. That would also means that eating our "mates" is also in our nature.That would also mean that our abstract way of thinking is not in our nature.
That doesn't make sens. The fact that humans has basic physical functions in common with animals doesn't mean he is one.
man is characterized not by what he has in common with animals, but by what differentiates him from them. Man's rationality is what makes human nature unique and fundamentally distinct from animal nature.
If I said something false, correct me. However, if you participate in a debate without spending any time at all educating yourself about it on a basic level, do not expect to be treated with kid gloves.
Bonobos (pygmy Chimps) share our DNA to 99% and they engage in all sorts of sexual activity. From homosexuality in both male and females to pedophilia. Although with them sex is used as a bonding mechanism.
So in other words to use animals as a way to determine if this behavior normal, I guess you'd also have to say that we kill, maim and injure our enemies just cause we feel like. Animals do it so its normal .... DUH I also suggest that be given permission to have multiple partners with no hostility whatsoever. I wanted to be Alpha Male in The wolf pack. Animals do all these things. Whether Its "Normal" or Simply downright disgusting is a matter of yet another debate......
First of all, when I posted on this debate the word normal wasn't in the heading. Secondly all the things you describe happen in both humans and animals so is therefore a matter of nature.
I guess you'd also have to say that we kill, maim and injure our enemies just cause we feel like.
You are using examples of behavior that create victims and are generally morally unsound. Homosexuality hurts no-one.
I also suggest that be given permission to have multiple partners with no hostility whatsoever.
This happens all the time, from polygamous societies and religions to everyday promiscuity, the fact that you've not had it is a matter for you to address, and just so you know as you are using this as a comparison to the animal kingdom pack animals like Lions and Gorillas often have their Alpha males usurped by younger, stronger or otherwise better equipped males.
I wanted to be Alpha Male in The wolf pack
Good luck with that, your examples are pretty weak here.
Whether Its "Normal" or Simply downright disgusting is a matter of yet another debate......
So, what is your point then, are you agreeing that it is normal? or are you saying that it isn't. It is normal, it happens in many different animal groups including our own and if you have a look at my post you'll see that animals that share 99% of our DNA engage in the exact same activity. If from what I gather and correct me if I'm wrong you are trying to convey your disgust for homosexual activity I'd advise either setting up a debate on this topic or not posting it as a tag on the end.
Homosexuality actually does hurt people actually. Many Homosexuals may use a wife to hide their supposed immorality. which hurts their wife, spreading disease.It does hurt. A monogamous homosexual relationship does not have much logic in it anyway. I guess they are just in it for the fun of it. I don't Know a single Homosexual (trust me i know a lot) that was born Homosexual. I can't say its wrong It was never Gay. But i Can Say it seems that way.
Let me give you a few examples not weak ones lol.
a guy in the island I live in was molested by his uncle, at a young age.
Ever since then he hated Men(not now this is before He has a wife and kids now), in general, but would you say, That Homosexuality was 'planted' so to speak into the dudes mind?By his uncle? I won't say Homosexuality is wrong.
But i'll say this.
When Im walking the street I don't want to see to guys making out.Not because i'm weak-minded but homosexuality can be thrusted onto someone. Im sure Homosexuality hurts- A lot. If you are gay I don't want to know. There is Know evidence to show that someone be can be born Gay. It is normal in the sense that it can be thrusted on to somone by an already switched over human being.
tell me if You've ever watched porn if the images are easy to get out of your head(which may cause heterosexual perversion).
Now, Imagine Gay porn god forbid. Bro you are scarred for Life.
If someone is Gay is not my business, and quite frankly I dont care.
BUT if you are gonna show me images that i may see as repulsive especially without warning ( Two Gays making out on the street etc) That it was I see as disgusting. What about two heterosexuals making out on the street, well its only fair -I DONT WANNA SEE IT EITHER. Sex is not between two people. often it can be three. A child. Homosexuals have no natural rights for a child- why? they cant reproduce. Parents are an influence on a child. Homosexual parents definitely go against natural AND normal. Which goes on to say(to me) that Homosexuals should not be displaying their behaviours around children. As THAT is unnatural.
How could the Homosexuals get the children in the first place? Ahemadoption.
Many Homosexuals may use a wife to hide their supposed immorality.
Why is this? It's because the actions of bigots make it extremely difficult for a lot of men to come out. Yes some hide behind families but the majority do not.
A monogamous homosexual relationship does not have much logic in it anyway.
No more than a baron straight couple, I'm sure if you are in a relationship or will be that you'll not be doing it solely on the basis of reproduction. Love exists and for a homosexual it exists for the same sex rather that the opposite.
I guess they are just in it for the fun of it.
Or they love each other.
I don't Know a single Homosexual (trust me i know a lot) that was born Homosexual.
Have you tried asking any of these supposed homosexuals if this was a choice or not? Statistical evidence points towards a non choice result. Men can be born with effeminate brains and therefore behave and act feminine the opposite can happen to women therefore they are born gay and it is not a choice.
a guy in the island I live in was molested by his uncle, at a young age.
Do all boys that are molested by men turn out gay? Are all homosexuals products of molestation? No and no, so your example is pretty bad.
When Im walking the street I don't want to see to guys making out.Not because i'm weak-minded but homosexuality can be thrusted onto someone.
So, you think that if you see enough homosexuality you will become homosexual?
There is Know evidence to show that someone be can be born Gay
Peoples brains don't just switch from male to female, that is impossible.
It is normal in the sense that it can be thrusted on to somone by an already switched over human being.
Check the link, I'd like to see some evidence that you have to back up your wild assumptions.
tell me if You've ever watched porn if the images are easy to get out of your head(which may cause heterosexual perversion).
You're post is nothing but wild assumptions and broad generalizations. Porn is a huge industry for a reason, people feel they have to hide who they are because of mindsets such as yours.
Now, Imagine Gay porn god forbid. Bro you are scarred for Life.
If you don't want to see gay porn then don't look for it, I'm sure it's well hidden or it'd be popping up the whole time. Gay people are just as entitled to watch porn as everyone else.
BUT if you are gonna show me images that i may see as repulsive especially without warning ( Two Gays making out on the street etc) That it was I see as disgusting.
Unfortunately for you homosexuality is becoming more and more culturally accepted in the western world, so it's only a matter of time before men openly engaging in public affection will become common place.
Your argument about homosexuals as parents is grounded in what exactly. Most if not all of the homosexual people that live were raised by straight parents, where does that leave your point. There is many studies done on the effects of homosexuals raising children and guess what, the kids didn't turn out homosexual.
i never said I watched gay porn, I said Images gay or not, are hard to get out of your head. And i don't live in the western world either, what you see as wild i saw from experience.stop misinterpreting the meaning of my statements. I ddin't say that gays are a product of molestation. and no matter what you say you cant argue with nature. an effeminate brain in a male does not cahnge the fact that he IS a male.
i never said I watched gay porn, I said Images gay or not, are hard to get out of your head
Maybe, but if you watch a violent movie, about a serial killer, does this make one want to become a serial killer, no, it does not.
And i don't live in the western world either
Out of curiosity, where do you live?
what you see as wild i saw from experience.
I don't follow, sorry.
I ddin't say that gays are a product of molestation.
No but you implied it.
and no matter what you say you cant argue with nature
Isn't this the whole point of this debate, I posted evidence that this was natural and you disputed on grounds of ignorance.
an effeminate brain in a male does not cahnge the fact that he IS a male.
True, but it does change to whom this male is Naturally sexually attracted. I've noticed from your points that it is specifically male homosexuality that you have a problem with, are lesbians different?
IF the Dictionary was written by a warped person's mind YOU will get a warped view.
As with all writing, but dictionaries are written with some form of international consensus, so, therefore they are a good reference source, ambiguity exists within them but they are a fairly benign form of information in the sense that they can be trusted to deliver none biased views.
All of you arguments are right,yet wrong because of confirming to what you THINK is natural.
My arguments I back up with empirical data, from peer-reviewed sources, this things are how it is found to be, what I put faith in to be determined as natural is not only my opinion, it is the findings through the use of the scientific method of the top minds in these particular fields. I do not and will never just throw out what I think unless I state it as a personnel view before the act.
Please inform me as to how my arguments are wrong,(I've provided reference materials to back up my stance) can you? Are you willing to show why these data are wrong? If so I'd be willing to entertain a different stance.
I like the Bonobos post. They will fuck anyone they know. It feels good and it's intimate.
Animals tend to be more polygamous than humans. Usually, though, they engage in straight sex. Rarely do we see gay sex in the animal kingdom.
I do love the human mind, though. So trying to figure out how homosexuality works is just such an interesting thing to me. I heard about an experiment with rats, but that was a long time ago... idk.
Yes. We are animals after all, and share a number of psychological aspects with the primates. It makes perfect sense to use animals as models in understanding behaviour and its formation, and how it may apply to us.