CreateDebate is a social debate community built around ideas, discussion and democracy.
If this is your first time checking out a debate, here are some quick tips to help get you started:
Arguments with the highest score are displayed first.
Argument replies (both in favor and in opposition) are displayed below the original argument.
To follow along, you may find it helpful to show and hide the replies displayed below each argument.
To vote for an argument, use these icons:
You have the power to cast exactly one vote (either up or down) for each argument.
Once you vote, the icon will become grayed out and the argument's score will change.
Yes, you can change your vote.
Debate scores, side scores and tag scores are automatically calculated by an algorithm that primarily takes argument scores into account.
All scores are updated in real-time.
To learn more about the CreateDebate scoring system, check out the FAQ.
When you are ready to voice your opinion, use the Add Argument button to create an argument.
If you would like to address an existing argument, use the Support and Dispute link within that argument to create a new reply.
This debate is set up in such a way that I'm not sure what I'm saying yes or no to,
But overall the US does more good than harm. We donate more money to national disasters and poverty worldwide than any other country. We do more I think to encourage peace than to cause chaos I think overall historically, though Iraq was a huge ef-up.
Keeping in mind that the US has more to give, not sure if we do the most good percentage wise. It's easy to forget in a bad economy the US still has the highest GDP by several trillion. All the EU put together only has a couple trillion more in GDP.
Still, there is definitely a right wing of the US that is way way way too overbearing, and that seems to think manifest destiny includes the entire world. The Cheney's though are a minority here and there's less and less of those douche's every generation.
That's as far as the world is concerned.
Domestically, we suck compared to other Westernized countries. We were the last to outlaw slavery, we had internment camps in WWII, racism here is ridiculous, and we are the only Western nation where a human being can die in a hospital because they don't have enough money to pay for whatever treatment.
Domestically we kind of suck compared to the rest of the Western world.
1. As far as slavery, I'm comparing in all of this the US to Western Society, I thought that was implied, but I guess I should have made it more clear.
2. I never in my life have fallen back to hate America crap. I love America more than anyplace on earth. I love America so much I want to make it even better, and you cannot do that if you ignore the shortfallings... like the worst healthcare in the industrialized world link
3. No, no one should ever be condemned for anything their ancestors did. That's ridiculous of course. Mentioning the fact that it happened in no way condemns anyone who was not involved. Further, pretending things like internment camps never happened makes it more likely to happen again. So history should not be forgetten, even the bad stuff.
4. Okay, you can walk into a hospital, and even if you cannot afford the treatment the hospital will treat you. And that is a good thing.
What is not good though, is that many who cannot afford treatment never go to the doctor, and so die sooner. This is a fact, average lifespan and general health is higher in every single country that has some form of public healthcare specifically because people go to the doctor. That's a fact. So yeah, they don't die on the steps outside of the hospital, but they do die.
They also go bankrupt. We pay more per capita for healthcare than any other country in the world. Insurance companies make profits in the billions every single year, even in this economy. Yet we rank 37th in the world for healthcare. This is a failure of the US, and I stand behind that assessment.
Read this again and tell me you don't think the U.S. "Sucks"
"Domestically, we suck compared to other Westernized countries. We were the last to outlaw slavery, we had internment camps in WWII, racism here is ridiculous, and we are the only Western nation where a human being can die in a hospital because they don't have enough money to pay for whatever treatment.
Domestically we kind of suck compared to the rest of the Western world."
As for your health care link, its data from 2000 and honestly if you needed an operation would you leave the U.S. to get it? people come from around the world for the expertise in American hospitals, this is a fact! I would suggest that our lower life expectancies (in this data) is due to our eating habits not our health care. Now to be fair you must look at the amount of illegals using the system as well, does Japan (highest life expectancy in the data) have 30M illegals using the health care system for free? get ride of the illegals, save the health care system.
USPS, this is a weird disconnect I see in a lot of people, and I have no idea why.
It is possible to criticize certain aspects of anything, and still like that thing. I can be madly in love with a girl, and dislike her snoring, I can love a video game, but hate the graphics (FF3), etc.
Most of the western world has healthcare for every citizen. They pay less money for that healthcare, and they still live longer and healthier lives. Not just one or two other Westernized countries, every single one of them. The US system is the worst and we pay the most. That's a fact.
That's my gripe with the US, and really that and crime are my only two. Outside of that, even with that, it's my favorite country.
You see, you don't have to have blind love for something. Patriotism is not a religion, it's based on something concrete. My patriotism isn't based on some delusion of America, but on what it strives in theory to be.
And by my estimates that makes me more of a patriot than the flag-waving zealots.
As for coming to America for an operation.
That's true sometimes for people who have the money. If you have the money, the US has great healthcare.
I can give you two real life examples though of where your delusion falls apart:
1. point of fact, I have a torn patellar tendon and need surgery but am not going to get surgery because I cannot afford it. I can send photos of my knee if you need proof.
2. one of my best friends had to take his dad to Mexico for stem cell treatment! And he had the money to take his dad to any doctor anywhere in the world he wanted,
so it often depends on the kind of treatment needed where the wealthy can go for treatment.
My point is, again, other countries can provide all of their citizens generally better treatment (if they happen to not be millionaires) for way less money.
1. Ha! If you think that's how it works, I can see why you think there's nothing wrong with the healtcare system! No, it wouldn't be $5/month. It would be more than I pay for my car. My only option would be to declare bankruptcy, but I don't own my house so I don't want to do that. Anyway, obviously if it was life-threatening I would get it, but a torn tendon I can live with, and it will probably heal eventually, just won't be 100%.
That's not the point though. The point is this kind of thing does happen. And sometimes it is life threatening. Medical bills are the number 1 cause of bankruptcy. This hurts our entire economy, and most of these bankruptcies caused by medical bills happen to people who already have insurance.
It's not just the 30 million uncovered who are absolutely draining the system because they're only option is waiting until the last minute and going to the emergency room,
The other problem is the insurance people have that they think is so great is garbage. The second anyone gets sick insurance companies start trying to figure out ways to drop them. Fortunately most don't find that out because they don't get seriously ill. But that's what for-profit insurance is all about.
2. No. But I would go to one in Mexico if I needed stem cell related treatment. Because we are 8 years behind the rest of the world in stem cell research because of that clown Bush Jr.
Again though, the overriding point is that you can find an example of someone going somewhere else for nearly anything. It depends on the treatment needed. In this case Mexico had the best doctor my friend could find.
you start your dispute with .........Ha!........If all you can pay is $5 a week they will take it.............You didn't mention it was elective surgery....you should try Mexico....I hope you heal.
This is a debate sight not a personal history sight.
You are not getting off the hook that easy, and I'm making very specific points here. If you can't argue them, then don't reply, fine. But none of this wish you well stuff please. If you want people to get well, back healthcare reform. Wishes don't mean jack, respectfully.
1. Yes, knee surgery is always elective. It is never life threatening. In fact, you don't even need knees.
That is not the point. The point is that any tax paying citizen should be able to afford insurance that in the unfortunate case they tear their petellar tendon they can get the surgery that will heal them 100% in weeks as opposed to 80% in years.
2. This thing with the knees happens to people sometimes. Sometimes other stuff is injured or diseased though in places like the brain or the heart. And instead of them not getting the surgery because they can't afford it leading to a limp, it leads to death. This is a problem with the system.
3. The whole whole Mexico thing is a different point completely. The point of that is that just because someone comes to the US for treatment of something does not automatically mean we have the best treatment for everyone everytime in the whole wide world.
Which is what you assumed.
Which is what my example of Mexico having better stem cell treatment disproves.
Please. If you don't understand what I'm talking about just don't answer. If you do and have a legitimate argument, then try to make your points.
"This is a debate sight not a personal history sight."
Yet your debate points are based on a friend of a friend who went to Mexico for experimental treatment not available in the U.S. and of course your high school football injury.
"The point is that any tax paying citizen should be able to afford insurance" What do you make $8 an hour? so you might have payed $600.00 in taxes for the year.....so everything should be free!
Okay, I'm going to have to start downvoting you soon.
You are not answering a single point I made. You are only repeating my arguments.
1. It wasn't a friend of a friend, it's one of my best friends. We hang out like all the time. I picked him up when he got back from Mexico. That aside, I mentioned it for a reason
focus on the reasons usps. Or stop this line of debate.
2. I make $30/hr. But I pay 15% in taxes because I recieve 1099-misc instead of W2's because I'm considered an independant contractor. I don't qualify for anything for free, yet pay a very high tax bracket. And there are millions like me.
I could pay 200 or 300 a month for insurance, happily. But any insurance that would be any good for me would be 600 plus/ month.
And there are millions like me.
A public option gets people like me in the system, who would actually overall pay in more than we get out.
The personal experiences I'm mentioning make specific points. You repeating what I already said is not addressing any points at all.
You're basically just parroting everything.
Again, answer the points I'm making with counter points, or stop this line of debate.
your post said "2. one of my best friends had to take his dad to Mexico for stem cell treatment! And he had the money to take his dad to any doctor anywhere in the world he wanted"
Now its "1. It wasn't a friend of a friend, it's one of my best friends. We hang out like all the time. I picked him up when he got back from Mexico. That aside, I mentioned it for a reason"
Was it your best friend or your best friends dad? don't lie!!!!
if your going to bullshit I'm going to call you on it!
Now would you like to post ANYTHING that can be proved or just your feelings.
It was my friends dad, like I said. You said a friend of a friend as if it never really happened or was some vague unconnected story so I corrected you.
The point was, which you ignored, is that not everyone comes to the US for every procedure. That is why I mentioned it, as an example.
And now I had to downvote you because you are avoiding my arguments. I've only given real life examples of the points I'm making.
The points I've already stated that you continue to ignore and that I've even given you links to look at yourself,
are that we pay the most for healthcare, and have the worst healthcare overall in the Westernized world.
No your being an ass! I'm not "spamming" I'm commenting on your bullshit post and you cant take it. the one link you posted is 10 years old! every thing else is your feelings.
My argument is the U.S.A. is a political force for good?
The USA should leave other countries alone. What right do they have to interfere in the affairs of nations with absolutely no ties and which are located 5,000 miles away? Especially if they don't want American help.
I agree with this also! but its not just the war the U.S. spends trillions every year supporting other country's this must stop, close down the border and lets take care of our self's.
All you people out there who think that everyone should look after their own backyard, I'd like you to consider something: We're all humans as a species, sharing the Earth as a home, if you think that every country on Earth is and should be independent of each other, please think again.
As a species, we all benefit when we share. Everything. Goods, services, cultures, languages, understanding, tourism, knowledge. It's like if we all live in a village (we do, the global village), I would share my bicycle if I'm not using it, or my skills as a doctor if someone needs it, I'm not just going to restrict it to my family's usage of it, cos if everyone are doing that, we'd ALL be worse off.
Now that's out of the way, let's talk about meddling into each other's affairs. When you share things, you sometimes also wanna share opinions. Opinions about how people do things, etc... exert a bit of influence where possible to try and improve other people's life in the village. Especially if you're a net giver, you should help net takers get into a position where they will eventually become net givers too. Also sometimes you see a member of the village takes advantage of other members because he's stronger... you MUST say something, not just for righteousness's sake but also for your sake. If the GOOD ignore things long enough, the BAD will prevail, then it maybe too late for you to start caring.
Are you suggesting that you do not need evidence to support the statements that you make?
"I'm simply giving an example of a fairly common occurrence."- you gave absolutely no example. It was a completely generalized statement.
Besides showing that you think its wrong for the US to get involved in other countries affairs, you need to show why it is wrong for the US to get involved. There needs to be some kind of example to show why its a bad thing. You can't just say its a bad thing.
The U.S does help out many countries, but it seems they help a little too much. In some cases it's okay, but sometimes the other countries don't want our help. The U.S gives millions of dollars to help other countries, and I'm not saying that's a bad thing, but we have many homeless, unemployed, sickly, and we have many people hurt by natural disasters as well. The government could help it's own citizens better than they do. When you look back at Hurricane Katrina and how long it took too respond, and look at Haiti's earthquake and how we were the first to arrive. But either way critics will say that America is either playing big brother too much or not helping out at all.
