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63
58
Yes it is No its tradition!
Debate Score:121
Arguments:71
Total Votes:151
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 Yes it is (36)
 
 No its tradition! (35)

Debate Creator

DaWolfman(3321) pic



Is the man paying for dinner sexist?

 I go out to dinner with my girl Cassandra and I do not even expect her to reach for the tab. Dont get me wrong a reach would be nice ;). But it is not expected and I was always raised to think that when you go out to eat the man always buys. Is this correct? Should we do dutch or just have the woman pay sometimes?

Yes it is

Side Score: 63
VS.

No its tradition!

Side Score: 58
4 points

Personally, I appreciate generosity in everyone whether male or female, and I like to return it in kind. In my current relationship, we split shared bills and groceries 50/50 and take turns picking up the check at restaurants. Of course we don't keep a ledger or anything like that, but we generally operate on a financially equal basis.

That said, I have been in relationships in which the guy absolutely insisted on paying for everything when we went out, and even wanted to pay my bills. Although I appreciate the intent, I find myself irritated to insulted when forced into that role.

To answer the main question, yes I do believe that the idea of men as "providers," (specifically in the context of paying for dinner) is sexist as well as outdated, but mostly when it feels obligatory to either or both parties on a regular basis. Sexism goes both ways. Adamant insistence by the man, or silent acquiescence by the woman, just reinforce old stereotypes for both, defining men as breadwinners, and women as helpless dependents.

some reasonable exceptions:

1. First date: Tradition holds that on the first date, the man pays for the entertainment for the night. As ridiculous as I find this, it's also a tradition just like Easter egg hunting and Christmas decorations, so I suppose it's harmless as long as it evens out after that.

2. Pregnancy: This is where women and men diverge in their ability to work for their own income. For a time, it is not possible for women to work, so it might be nice to pick up the tab as a kindness to someone possibly in need. But this would really apply to anyone who is less fortunate. This really only applies for women without paid maternity leave (only in America).

3. Special occasions: Her birthday/graduation/promotion, etc. Since buying someone dinner is a way of honoring them, it's acceptable, but remember that it goes both ways.

Women and men should treat each other with mutual respect and equality, not according to socially enforced gender roles.

Side: Yes it is
3 points

If you have set a precedence by paying the bill over and over again, then you can't expect her to intervene now, right? ;)

But if this, say, was the first time out, and she just expected you to pay the bill, then yes, I would say that it would be a bit sexist.

Side: Yes it is
angie(44) Disputed
2 points

ever since the dawn of time the world have had been sexist and well we jsut get used to the fact that we cannot change the world into something that we want because jsut becasue it is what you want does not mean that is what everyone else wants so it makes it a tradition because everyone has done it for generatings

Side: No its tradition!
1 point

Depends on who asked who out. If you asked her to go to dinner, then paying would be expected.

Then we get into the fact that males are usually expected to ask women out....

Side: No its tradition!
3 points

Well, yes. That is another way to look at it. Maybe the whole system is broken, just a little sexist.

Spearhead the revolution!

Side: Yes it is

I agree with your logic. Somehow I've been able to get almost 50% turnout with the girls asking me to dinner ;)

Side: No its tradition!
3 points

Well, by femiNAZI standards, yes, it is. You see, chivalry is the idea that men must treat women with respect. Chivalry was created in the first place because men have a superiority complex.

In fact, men being the hunters and protectors of the weak women is a result of natural selection. Evolution has created the mothers who stay home and nurture the child and the father who goes out and hunts for his family. He must be stronger and a more logical thinker to do so, so his body and brain are created this way through natural selection.

Having this hunter ability is what makes him the leader. He makes the decisions and is given power. The man is given the ability to either think or fight his way to success by natural selection.

So, not only is paying for dinner sexist, but so is Natural Selection all together. But that would be by feminazi logic. Actually, feminazis don't have logic... they just think "YOU SEXIST, YOU BAD, STOP BEING DIFFERENT!!!"

But, not all feminists are feminazis. Feminists are different in that they want equal pay and to be treated specially. They just want all the good and none of the bad.

Side: Yes it is

You always have to bring in the radical side don't you!

Side: Yes it is
0 points

Was that a question!

Side: Yes it is
3 points

Yeah, but that's the world we live in.

This is how it works. Guys have to constantly bend over backwards for girls. We have to ignore all of the physical things that make us bigger stronger and faster, and act like we're all equal in that respect. Yet we're expected to open doors, carry them when necessary, and get beat up defending their good name... even if she happens to not have a good name.

When it comes to math, we have to pretend there is not overall statistics, and that study after study has not shown guys in general are better at it.

But, when it comes to communications, which statistics and study after study shows that women are generally better, we are expected to admit that girls are indead better at that kind of brain activity, and be the butt of endless commercials showing us as the dumb cave men we are.

Girls and only girls are allowed to serve cocktails (80k/ year at least in LV, for all you who say that's a crappy job) there is no equal pay for male strippers, male models, male dancers, or any other job where a large portion of your income includes tips.

And that's find, but god forbid you tell a woman that maybe lifting heavy things for 8 hours a day, or securing people/places/things against criminals might be a job for a man.

The income discrepency stats show that woman make X amount less than men. What the stats don't tell you is that these stats don't take into account women who choose to stay at home. That's right, stay at home moms are counted in the equation. You know who isn't counted? Stay at home dads. hm...

Okay, maybe this is an extreme view. But sexism does indead exist, and it goes both ways. And paying for dinner is a perfect example of this.

Side: Yes it is
jubilee(109) Disputed
3 points

I understand where you're coming from, but I think you're missing something a couple paragraphs in. In the "nature vs. nurture" debate you've dismissed "nurture" completely in accounting for discrepancies seen between men and women in various fields of study. The article you cited below as evidence for your argument is slightly ambiguous in this sense, but also sides in favor of the biological explanation rather than the environmental one.

Think about this:

Women need to be beautiful to be worthwhile. Masculinity involves being aggressive and hardworking.

Women are always talkative and emotional. Men are reserved and quiet.

Girls aren't good at math, but they're good at communication. Men are analytical, and mechanically inclined. Math is easy for them.

These are (unfortunately) common stereotypes widely believed throughout society. Like it or not, they contribute to the way each individual, male or female, develops. To ignore cultural / environmental factors in something like math or communications proficiency is negligent on your part.

Also, citing a poorly referenced article from an obscure Ethiopian newspaper (not a great country to be born female) was probably not a good decision.

Side: No its tradition!
iamdavidh(4856) Disputed
1 point

I completely agree that the way we are raised encourages us to act a certain way.

There's no doubt of that I think.

And this includes paying for dinner :)

Listen, I almost always pay for dinner, I don't mind, that's not really the point I'm making.

I was using extremes to point out that while, yes, there are unfair stereotypes, women are not the soul victims of these.

I wrote two paragraphs that made two very debatable claims.

1. guys are better at math.

2. girls are better at communicating.

I actually have not idea if either is true.

Now, I'm not a magic genie with a crystal ball, but I promise I predicted it was the "boys are better at math" that would bring the heat. Sure enough, not an objection about girls being better at something.

Who pays for dinner aside, that in itself is a little sexist don't you think?

For the record,

what I really think is that every individual is different, and overall trends, real or percieved, should not be used to judge an individual,

and every human mind, man or woman, is just as capable as the next of grasping any subject they set their little hearts on.

And that was a crappy source, I was in a hurry :)

Side: Yes it is
jessald(1915) Disputed
2 points

I agree with some of what you're saying, but I think you're bs'ing in other parts.

When it comes to math for example:

http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2008-05/msl-btm_1052308.php

http://www.time.com/time/health/article/ 0,8599,1826399,00.html

Yes men are more physically powerful, but remember - with power comes responsibility.

Side: No its tradition!
iamdavidh(4856) Disputed
2 points

Interesting,

Where's the counter research saying that men are indeed equal to women in matters of communications?

See what I'm saying? No one bothers to disprove that one.

Here's another study that would lead one to believe that those stereotypes have real, physical, roots in nature

link

At any rate, it seems odd to blame sexism on women scoring lower at math tests.

By that logic GPAs before college are sexist, as girls generally get better grades through high school,

Where's the studies looking into that sexism?

That's the point, it's a one way street, no one cares if a dude gets screwed,

divorce, domestic violence, it's always the guy, and the girl is always the victim, no matter what really happened.

so men are physically stonger, what good does that do?

any job where physical strength or athletisism is required, is required to ignore sex, or they get sued. And if the girls that work with the guys who do more work because they are stronger, don't get equal pay, they get sued.

honestly it doesn't even effect me that much personally,

it just seems dumb

Side: Yes it is
1 point

Bra- Fuckin' -vo.

The problem is that women don't have the ability to accept this argument. And if they do, they just say "yep, it isn't fair, get used to it".

w/e. that's why Girls Gone Wild was created. show them who's boss.

Side: Yes it is
3 points

2 down votes, no rebuttal.

good job.

Side: Yes it is
2 points

he absolutly is sexist in most situations but he is still a guy so it does come naturally however it is more sexist for the woman to refuse payment since the female gender is sopposed to be more emotionally attached and should understand that the man is just a man(sorry for the sexist remark) but guys admit how often is that gonna happen so just deal life is sexist thats why theres genders but for those of you who have made the opposite sex a multiple choice it brings new questions for two guys "is he saying guys are inferior" and for two girls "who the heck is he"

Side: Yes it is
1 point

Yes its good that they get to share sometimes. Especially if she is comfortable enough to know how broke you are. It is always better to share and it doesn't make you feel a sexist. But sometimes if you have the cash it is also good that you show them how gentleman you are by paying for all the bills. They sometimes reflects this onto your financial status and justifies how responsible you are.

Side: Yes it is

I understand chivalry in a new relationship or in the first few dates of a relationship, but as a continued practice, a man picking up the tab is unfair to him and unfair to a woman who may wish to treat her significant other. I've been dating my boyfriend for almost four months, and he's only now allowing me to pay for food, tickets, etc., but only because I've been begging him from day one to allow me this privilege. It makes me feel like his equal and like he respects me enough and feels comfortable enough with me to not feel that he has to dote on me.

Side: Yes it is
1 point

Yes, I am a feminist. Women should pay for dinner just as often as men.

Side: Yes it is
1 point

Yes. Feminists say that there should be no gender roles. Thus, men being the ones to be expected to pay for a first date (or any other) because of being male is sexist.

Side: Yes it is
1 point

I think that it can be sexist under certain circumstances. Whoever asks who out, they should pay. If a woman asks a man out, should the man pay? No. If the woman asks the man out, the woman should pay. If the man asks the woman out, the man should pay. The belief that men should pay for every date is the same as thinking that women aren't independent and that they can't take care of themselves financially. The pay should be split.

Side: Yes it is
Lysenko(38) Disputed
1 point

The whole "whoever asks out, pays" argument doesn't hold any water for the simple fact that the rate of women asking men out is nowhere near the rate that men ask women out.

I believe the last study done on this showed that men ask out 90ish percent of the time.

Side: Yes it is
1 point

Yes, men just assuming that it is obligatory for them to pay is definitely sexist. True, it is a tradition. But, stupid traditions like these should not be followed, but changed. If women are taking an equal stand in other areas and are becoming more financially secure and independent, should it not make sense for the bill to be split? If women want to be considered as helpless dependents of men whose meal is paid for by them, how can they then demand for equality in other areas? If women want equality, it should be done 100%. For those who claim it is chivalry, it is more chivalrous to encourage women to be financially independent and to increase their self-confidence by allowing them to pay for their meal.

Side: Yes it is

No, it's simple chivalry. An old tradition that is dying slowly. I've paid for dinners and I've had girlfriends pay for dinner. Either way, paying for dinner is not sexist, it's a choice made by a human being. It does have to do with how often a man pays and if he infers some sort of superiority than I would say examine the sexism.

Side: Chivalry
3 points

wtf.? chivalry ppl you guys really think that someone thinks thats sexist/. they must not know about the manners and good deed that has. in my opnion if its a special occasian and its your birthday and/or wedding day or whatever he has to offer.

Side: No its tradition!
MetroidJunki(1) Disputed
1 point

Chivalry traditions were also around when women were confined to being house wives, were basically trophies in marriage, and couldn't vote or take up arms. Is that what you want? It's so easy to call it just being good manners when you benefit.

Side: Yes it is
2 points

Fuck sexism. However, it'd be awesome if she paid sometimes. But not because of sexism- because she cares about you too.... And maybe because you're being cheap that day. (General "you", not you specifically)

Side: No its tradition!
DaWolfman(3321) Disputed
1 point

Is it not sexist that the man pays? She is definately expecting it. Should traditions be continued? We put an end to slavery, and sexism towards women for the most part. and I am sure as hell not gonna be that guy that goes ' hey babe you got the tab I left my wallet in the car and I have to go to the bathroom'.

Side: Yes it is
MKIced(2488) Disputed
0 points

I do not believe in sexism. I think it is a woman's place to be inferior to a man. It has been that way throughout history, for the most part, so what makes the 21st century so unique in that suddenly women have so many more rights? Yes they deserve rights. I'm not saying that. I'm just saying how it's kind of strange that society has always been male-dominant and now that it's the new millennium, women are miraculously so much better than before. There has to be a top dog in every species. Humans are not special exceptions to the rule. In some species, there are alpha males and the they are the heads of the species, the male-dominant species. In others, like bees, the males are basically just used for their sperm to sustain the species, female-dominant species.

What gives humans the right to be exceptions from this rule?

Side: No its tradition!

No, he's an idiot for not making her pay her fair share. He can always reimburse her after the sex. Just leave it on the night stand ;)

Side: No its tradition!

No, it is not at all sexist! Why would it be? I should think that if it were a date the person who asked for that date would be picking up the tab. If it's just a friendly,'let's get together thing than I would say dutch treat is in order. If, on a date, the woman protests and wishes to pay for half of the dinner then allow her to do so or give her the option to leave the tip if her paying irks you. Being a chivalrous person does not make one sexist.

Side: Let the circumstances decide
1 point

Nope, im paying for a girl this saturday night, she won't pay for a thing. I have no problem paying.

Trick is, finding a girl to pay for. Tradition is important.

Side: No its tradition!
DaWolfman(3321) Disputed
1 point

Slavery was a tradition. I bet you any southerner back in the 1800s would have told you that the trick is getting a slave.

Side: Yes it is
JakeJ(3255) Disputed
2 points

So, just because I like one tradition I have to like the other?

Side: No its tradition!
MysteryGirl(2) Disputed
0 points

I hate to burst your thought bubble, but how is slavery even relevant? A thwap for DaWolfman.

Side: No its tradition!
1 point

Debate or debating is a formal method of interactive and representational argument. Debate is a broader form of argument than logical argument, which only examines consistency from axiom, and factual argument, which only examines what is or isn't the case or rhetoric which is a technique of persuasion. Though logical consistency,

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Side: No its tradition!
1 point

Traditionally if a man asks you out to dinner, it is assumed that he is picking up the tab especially if it's a first date or meeting. There's nothing wrong if you (the female) are meeting him somewhere to wait at the cocktail lounge and have his favorite there ready and waiting for him.

In this day and age it's great if your date picks up the tab, but it's also a nice gesture for you to do the same especially on certain occasions.

Big turnoff - going out with a male who expects (me, the female) his date to pick up the tab 90% of the time.

With girlfriends - we take turns at picking up the check. We know who got it last time and the next time it's the other's turn. But then again, it's not the same.

Side: No its tradition!
1 point

It's always been tradition that men would be in charge of their money. Husbands would normally earn the money and take care of the budget. Of course, we are moving towards a world where men and women are becoming more and more equal, yet we still hang onto some Western conservative traditions. This is a very important one we still hang on to.

Side: No its tradition!

I think the man paying for dinner is a sign of being a good guy. It's not sexist, it's a grand, time honored tradition.

Side: No its tradition!
Lysenko(38) Disputed
1 point

If we are going to use the argument that when something is a "grand, time honored tradition" to cover up a clearly sexist action, why don't we say that women being denied any say in government isn't sexist because it is a "grand, time honored tradition."

Side: Yes it is
1 point

Well if the guy does it cause he feels superior to the lady, or he does it all of the time, then yea, that sounds sexist.

But paying for dinner when you are out with someone, as an act on its own, is not sexist at all.

When it's the first time I'm having dinner with someone, be it romantic or friendly, I almost always find myself wanting to pick the tab. Be it a friend, a relative, whatever. Of course if they want to share then thats fine. It's just the way I was raised. It's politeness mixed with generosity, and a sprinkle of wanting to give a gift to that person. It has nothing to do with proving your superiority or finding the other person inferior.

You just want to do something nice for them.

Side: It's just a desire to do something nice
1 point

A guy always picking up the tab and actually refusing to allow the girl to pick up the tab, going to the point of being offended when she wants to pay for herself, that's one of the times where it's just plain sexist and not the act of a nice guy (he might think it is, if he was raised to think that way, doesn't mean he's right). It definitely can be a nice gesture, and it can be romantic (first date, anniversaries, birthdays, etc.) But if it's an every time thing, and there's more attached to that tab than money, it's definitely sexist.

Side: Yes it is
1 point

Well, it's definitely not sexist. More like chivalry that a man can take care of his lady. But today, more men like to be taken care of... so some women are up to the task and paying the tabs... LIKE ME! (But we have a joint account. hehe).

Side: No its tradition!
1 point

My answer wasn't up there, but at least you have a choice close to it. I think that the person doing the asking should do the paying. It's courteous.

Side: Let the circumstances decide
Lysenko(38) Disputed
1 point

The whole "whoever asks out, pays" argument doesn't hold any water for the simple fact that the rate of women asking men out is nowhere near the rate that men ask women out.

I believe the last study done on this showed that men ask out 90ish percent of the time.

Side: Yes it is
1 point

It's chivalry. It isn't sexist, I'm a girl and I am not a dumb ass, sure it is sexist if he battles you and insists on paying if it makes you uncomfortable, but it's sweet and it's the way a man says that you are worth this money. And although I highly disagree with this being in any way sexist, I can see where you guys are coming from. I'm definitely complimented if a guy wants to pay, but I never expect it and would rather split it if it isn't like a first date or rare occasion. It is NOT sexist, it is polite and old fashioned.

Side: No its tradition!
1 point

Not unless he means it in a nice way where he wants to be generous and selfless towards the girl. If he means it in a gruff "It's my role to do it and if she had pay, I will feel inadequate as a full grown man!" way, then it's not on. But I also think that if you still feel that is sexist and unequal behavior, consider the idea when a girl is dating a guy, she can make up by paying for little things like the popcorn at the cinema while he gets the tickets or making his favorite sweets or a mixed CD with songs that remind her of him and surprise him with the goodies as a gesture of thanking him for treating her for paying for dinner.

Side: No its tradition!

It is an act of chivalry for the guy to take care of the check. I do not consider it sexist.

Side: No its tradition!
0 points

Not at all, it's not tradition either; it's simply out of respect for women. If you were eating dinner with your mother wouldn't you pay for her? If you don't even do that then you're probably a stupid cafone.

Side: No its tradition!
DaWolfman(3321) Disputed
1 point

.... If a man is always expected to do something that a woman can do but doesn't what do you call that? When there were no women doctors in the past could women be doctors? Obviously. Were they? No, it was a mans job along with just about everything else. They called that sexism why isn't this sexism towards men? Can a girl pay for dinner? Yes, does she ? about 90% of the time unless you are married, engaged, or have been going out for 5 years. Then no she does not.

Side: Yes it is
MBurke12(81) Disputed
0 points

"When there were no women doctors in the past could women be doctors? Obviously. Were they? No, it was a mans job along with just about everything else." How is that sexism when women could still be doctors? And there is sexism towards men but we just don't make a big deal about it so everyone can shut up, just like when black people say "white bread" or "cracker" in movies because they think it's funny; white people don't make a big deal about it but when it's the other way around, oh lordy.

Side: No its tradition!
franseq(2) Disputed
1 point

It would be more respectful if you allowed women to feel more confident about themselves by allowing them to pay for their meal. We're talking about dates here, that is taking out women your own age. Not your mother.

Side: Yes it is
0 points

I also wanted to add that saying this is like saying "Is it sexist for a man to always have to ask the woman to marry them?"

Who even cares about stuff like this? Whoever thought this probably doesn't even take women out to dinner anyway.

Side: No its tradition!
DaWolfman(3321) Disputed
1 point

I thought this debate up and I just got home from my girls house where I had a nice dinner ... really good points who cares about stuff like this? dont post on my debates if thats what you are going to say enough people ' cared ' about this debate to put it into the 80s in votes ...

Side: Yes it is
-1 points

I think it's a tradition that's been passed down through generations.

Side: Chivalry
ThePyg(6734) Disputed
1 point

So is the woman staying at home and the man going to work ;)

Side: Yes it is
Bradf0rd(1428) Disputed
1 point

I like your reasoning.

Side: Yes it is