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It is pointless to argue against religion. It has been proven wrong.
Is religion worth arguing, or is it so completely wrong that it isn't even worth thinking about?
There is no proof whatsoever for religion, as I have observed countless times on this site, any sort of physical evidence someone brings up is always shown to be fake, all religious arguments are beaten with logic and reason and religion itself, even if true, only harms society.
Is there a point to arguing it, besides trying to de-brainwash people, or is it a dead-end subject that religious people will keep believing in, no matter if they are right or wrong?
Is there a chance religion or spirituality might be a valid or right answer? Or is atheism and a secular outlook on life simply the way the universe actually is?
You might not have noticed, but most arguments on here end with atheists using logic and evidence to defeat religious based arguments, because religious arguments have no evidence that their god is real.
In the end though, the only way to know is to see god.
Because it is impossible to see god "UNTIL YOU DIE" and because logic has defeated all arguments, such as "Who made god?"
You can say god is eternal, but that would only be based on text or a made up conclusion, not any real evidence, so there is no evidence and all logic has to rely on made up arguments based on whichever religion's holy book I would be debating. Already at that point I cannot take them seriously. Well, who made unicorns? Well, they've always existed. That's why we don't see them in the ecosystem, there is just one of them that never dies and no one ever sees. Well, that's great, but how do you know?
And because you cannot know, I would deem that unicorn or god to not exist. That is only ONE argument, and there are many others that can handle any sort of religious idea. All that versus your entire holy book, which is filled with violence "God floods the land and kills his creation because he thinks it's bad". Well, ok? That's unrealistic mythology and it's very violent. Even if your god WAS somehow real, I am sure heaven would be hell, if it's a paradise to that god.
Buy yes, if you were to read arguments and actually consider them and use logic, rather than strong emotional feelings, then you would see deeper into the beauty of the world and the universe and start not seeing your god, wherever he is.
That is how I can prove religion is unjustified. There is no reason to believe unless you already believe or are terrified of death, or need an all powerful being to instruct you in life. "Go forth and multiply". If you can think for yourself and handle death, even if it is a bit less "heavenly" then you can quickly see why religions cannot be true.
If it is true, it matters little in this argument. As long as I live, it is safe to assume the supernatural will not affect me in any way, except those who take away rights like gay marriage, or slavery a few years back, not letting women vote because they are to be subservient to men and other things like that which to me are absurd, and might be to you too, but back then they DID justify doing that with their religion, mainly Christianity.
Even if it was real, you think I would respect a god that lets people kill others in its name?
Religion is wrong because as long as I live, I no longer expect any evidence to show up that would prove me wrong. Once, I had argued on this website with the idea that I could be proven wrong, that maybe I was missing something, but after many arguments and seeing what theists resort to when an argument goes badly "You'll burn in hell! Be afraid and believe what I do or you'll burn!" I have deemed religion to be completely violent and harmful to society, impossible to prove, meaning anyone can make up any religion, such as Mormonism, Scientology or anything and people will still believe it, and the fact that religion is unrealistic. It would be nice if real, but I do not think some people will gain immortality and paradise simply for believing strongly in a certain religion, rather than another religion, and those who don't will gain immortality and suffer for all eternity.
That is just silly, so I would say it is proven wrong, enough to mock it without worrying about incurring the wrath of a god.
Your whole argument (like so many other atheists on this site) revolves around generalizations of religious people and a dangerously stereotypical view on them.
You equate God to unicorns, claim that the ability to use logic is only gained through strong atheism and that there is no evidence for Christianity while the whole of science solely supports evolution.
The most irritating thing I find about this, is that the majority of atheists just churn out the same arguments over and over, so though you have spent a substantial amount of time writing a fairly long and well written argument, it contains exactly the same substance of those on this site who are unable to use capital letters or click the spell check button.
Yes, the whole of science DOES support evolution and the big bang. If you read into a science book, written by a real scientist, such as Carl Sagan, Feynman, Neil deGrasse Tyson and many others, you will see that science as a whole does support evolution.
It's only creationists who don't.
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What can I do to prove to you that your religion isn't real? If you say nothing, then you do not care about truth.
I can answer that. If you want to prove your religion to me, show me physical evidence. I'll make it easier. Show me a real miracle. Not something like a horrible plane crash where a child survives, now an orphan. I'm talking about seeing the sky light up every color of the rainbow, or the sun flashing and god speaking to the world or something like that.
You can try to support your religion or believe in it as much as you want, but you are being a hypocrite if you say all my arguments are recycled arguments.
Tell me how old the Bible is.
Tell me the source for your knowledge. Hint: It's the Bible.
I know God hasn't spoken to you personally, and if he has, you cannot prove it's not just mental illness until you get him to speak to me and others in a public location where outside observers are also able to observe. That won't happen.
You know what would prove god to me? Read Ezekiel 1.
The first 20 lines, if they happened in real life would convince me to believe, and to promptly kill myself in sheer utter terror.
I have given you things that would prove your god to me. Extraordinary miracles, god speaking or showing up. Those things should not be difficult to do if your god is actually real. However, he isn't real.
I don't get you atheists, you try to prove that all Christians are illogical by saying 1+1=2 (or another basic maths sum). All 1+1=2 proves is that 1+1=2, it doesn't prove "Christians are illogical" or "God doesn't exist", please try remember that and tell all your atheist friends.
"Are you surprised that this ancient logic is still used?
I think you'll find that fellow was Roman and Roman gods are a bit different to the Christian God. Either way, Christians are measured on virtues and good deeds.
"Yes, the whole of science DOES support evolution and the big bang. If you read into a science book, written by a real scientist, such as Carl Sagan, Feynman, Neil deGrasse Tyson and many others, you will see that science as a whole does support evolution. "
You follow another assumption that I've never read a science book written by a "real" scientist (clearly Stephen Hawking doesn't count as a real scientist to you becausde he's in a wheelchair). Do all you atheists who are so openly minded make so many assumptions?
"What can I do to prove to you that your religion isn't real? If you say nothing, then you do not care about truth."
Another assumption that you're version of the "truth" is the absolute truth. This is just like debating with Nummi and his version of "reality" or Avesantanas and his version of "logic".
"
I can answer that. If you want to prove your religion to me, show me physical evidence. I'll make it easier. Show me a real miracle. Not something like a horrible plane crash where a child survives, now an orphan. I'm talking about seeing the sky light up every color of the rainbow, or the sun flashing and god speaking to the world or something like that."
Yes, because just being a Christian gives me command over God or I suddenly obtain Godlike powers.
"You can try to support your religion or believe in it as much as you want, but you are being a hypocrite if you say all my arguments are recycled arguments."
I'm not saying they're recycled, I'm saying they're all the same. You all follow the same blind, shallow, arrogance that you believe makes it right for you to use stereotypes and insults to support your arguments.
"Tell me how old the Bible is."
Around 2000 years. Unless you mean my phyiscal Bible which is 5 years old.
"Tell me the source for your knowledge. Hint: It's the Bible."]
Ha, another assumption. The source for my knowledge comes from my experiences with people and my education and learning, pretty much similar to everyone elses.
"I know God hasn't spoken to you personally, and if he has, you cannot prove it's not just mental illness until you get him to speak to me and others in a public location where outside observers are also able to observe. That won't happen."
You're right, God hasn't spoken to me personally (finally an assuption you got right) but that is because I'm not as strong a believer as other Christians are.
"
You know what would prove god to me? Read Ezekiel 1.
The first 20 lines, if they happened in real life would convince me to believe, and to promptly kill myself in sheer utter terror.
I have given you things that would prove your god to me. Extraordinary miracles, god speaking or showing up. Those things should not be difficult to do if your god is actually real. However, he isn't real.
I am no longer going to say "Likely isn't real."
I think I've previously mentioned how I cannot perform miracles, are you sure this point isn't "recycled" from one of your earlier?
"Your god does not exist in reality."
Lovely quote from Nummi there, which is so ignorant that I won't dignify it with a proper dispute.
Mackindale already disputed this well so i wont but i will address one thing. What do you mean my version of logic? Theres only one logic. Thats like saying theres different versions of fact. Like, something can be true to someone, and another thing true to someone else. This can exist for philisophical questions that dont have a concrete answer, however in reality it cant. For example, "1+1=2 is true for me"
"well, 1+1=45 is true for me"
It doesn't work that way. 1+1 is 2. FACT. There can't be variations of it. 1+1=2, period, end of story. The same goes for logic. Logic is logic. There's not my logic and your logic and Mackingdale's logic. Its just logic.
Logic- the science that investigates the principles governing correct or reliable inference. Something is logical, or its not. Plain and simple.
Synonyms for it are "making sense" or "reasonable". What Christians claim: there is a magical being watching us at all times and governs our actions, and everything in the bible is true.
This is illogical. It is unlikely. It is unreasonable. It doesn't make sense. We support the claim of it being illogical using sufficient evidence.....which you ignore, run from, and make excuses for.
I don't think you understand the first math analogy. It means that logic is logical, so if I say, "Prove toasters exist" you could show me the effect of a toasted, toasted bread, or you could show me the toaster itself. Otherwise I have no reason to believe that toasters actually exist. However, they are a very mundane object which doesn't revolve around cult like worship and strange arcane rules. "Extraordinary claims requires extraordinary evidence."
-
Roman gods and Christian god? Are you joking? Is that seriously your argument? Do you not understand that the point of that was against your Christian hell that atheists go to simply for being atheist, according to your loudest speakers and myths from your bible? If I go to hell because I am atheist, then your god is not just, your god is wicked. If I live a good life, and I am punished only for not believing, then your god is an insane tyrant not worth worship. Do you think he is?
-
Stephen Hawking is an atheist and accepts evolution and the big bang.
What is your point?
-
You just said "Version of the truth". I use evidence to find my truth. You use ancient mythology and take it literally.
You are delusional. Your reality is clearly made up in your own head, or you would use real life evidence too, rather than ancient religious books.
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Ok, then why are you arguing? If you cannot provide proof of your god, then why are you telling me I'm wrong? Are you serious? Should I believe what you say because you cannot provide proof? Or because you can?
I'll go with the second. Your god doesn't exist.
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Calling me blind? You disgust me.
Don't call me blind if you're going to use only the bible and ignore real evidence.
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The Bible is surely older than 2000 years. Only the myth of Jesus is 2000 years old. The rest is a bit older, isn't it?
However, that is not a good thing for you, is it?
The source of your knowledge is people? Ok, good job. You believe what other people say, rather than evidence.
Baaaaaa sheep.
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You're not as strong of a believer so god hasn't spoken to you?
Seriously? What you mean to say is "I'm not as insane as other Christians so I haven't heard voices yet."
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You cannot perform miracles, nor can a non-existent god.
Let's just wait, right? Wait for a miracle.
How about no.
I'm not going to believe you without proof or evidence or logic, and you are (non-subtle insult) a fool for believing this also without any sort of evidence or proof.
People prove people, mountains prove mountains and beautiful sunsets prove beautiful sunsets. None of that prove god.
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Your god does not exist in reality.
Unlike you, life isn't just some horrible test to be lived through where you're rewarded afterwards.
Life is reality to me, and without proof of a god, I will try to keep my thoughts true and with as little error as possible.
If your god is real, I will accept that, but it has been proven that it is not real, with only excuses to hide behind.
"I don't think you understand the first math analogy."
I don't understand why you felt it necessary to point out that '1+1=2 is logical while 1+1=3 is illogical' as if that equates to 'atheism is logical and Christianity is illogical'.
"It means that logic is logical"
And you feel the need to prove that?
"so if I say, "Prove toasters exist" you could show me the effect of a toasted, toasted bread, or you could show me the toaster itself. Otherwise I have no reason to believe that toasters actually exist. However, they are a very mundane object which doesn't revolve around cult like worship and strange arcane rules. "Extraordinary claims requires extraordinary evidence."
You're right, extraordinary claims like evolution do require extraordinary evidence, such that the example of the missing link known as "Lucy" doesn't satisfy.
"Roman gods and Christian god? Are you joking? Is that seriously your argument? Do you not understand that the point of that was against your Christian hell that atheists go to simply for being atheist, according to your loudest speakers and myths from your bible?"
I think you'll find that the Roman god's had many different rituals, sacrifices and requirements that make it very different to that of Christianity. And you seem to follow the assumption that humanity has the 'right' to Heavan but God denies us that 'right' by condemning us to Hell, it is in fact the opposite, we have all been condemned to Hell through sin and we can redeem ourselves through repentance and good deeds, while also accepting the existence of God and Christ.
"Stephen Hawking is an atheist and accepts evolution and the big bang.
What is your point?"
I think you'll find I was just disproving your assumption that I've never read I science book written by a "real" scientist, considering what constitutes a "real scientist"or not is based entirely on your opinion, so I provided Mr. Hawking as an example.
"You just said "Version of the truth". I use evidence to find my truth. You use ancient mythology and take it literally. You are delusional. Your reality is clearly made up in your own head, or you would use real life evidence too, rather than ancient religious books."
It appears you've read a biography of me which hasn't been written.
But since I'm going to humour you with an answer to your ridiculous claim, I shall point out that you have yet to show any of your "evidence" in this debate. If you are going to post evidence make sure it's from a nuetral site and not one of those subjective anti-Christian websites your atheist chums like to use.
"Ok, then why are you arguing? If you cannot provide proof of your god, then why are you telling me I'm wrong? Are you serious? Should I believe what you say because you cannot provide proof? Or because you can?"
Because you claim to disprove my God by equating it to menial objects such as toasters and sums like "1+1=3". My believe requires faith and not solid evidence.
"Calling me blind? You disgust me."
People who use stereotypes are blind, you also make plenty of assumptions.
"Don't call me blind if you're going to use only the bible and ignore real evidence."
When have I used the Bible?
"The Bible is surely older than 2000 years. Only the myth of Jesus is 2000 years old. The rest is a bit older, isn't it?"
Haha, you assume that Jesus is a "myth". Anyway, I'm talking about the Christian Bible which is around 2000 years old, the "rest" is mostly Jewish.
"However, that is not a good thing for you, is it?
The source of your knowledge is people? Ok, good job. You believe what other people say, rather than evidence.
Baaaaaa sheep."
XD
And you managed to come up with the Theory of Evolution and the Big Bang on your own then? Without "believ[ing] what other people say"?
"You're not as strong of a believer so god hasn't spoken to you?
Seriously? What you mean to say is "I'm not as insane as other Christians so I haven't heard voices yet."
Is this the cream of the "evidence" you use to disprove Christianity? The assumption that all Christians are "insane".
"You cannot perform miracles, nor can a non-existent god."
You're completely right, I cannot perform miracles and neither can non-existent gods, I don't understand why you keep stating the obvious, like "logic is logical".
It's a good thing that my God isn't non-existent.
"I'm not going to believe you without proof or evidence or logic, and you are (non-subtle insult) a fool for believing this also without any sort of evidence or proof."
Ha, I'm a "fool"? What about you? You follow the belief that after death nothing happens to your soul, there is no evidence for that, there can never be evidence for that.
"People prove people, mountains prove mountains and beautiful sunsets prove beautiful sunsets. None of that prove god."
And it's ovens that create cakes, not chefs.
"Your god does not exist in reality."
XD
"Unlike you, life isn't just some horrible test to be lived through where you're rewarded afterwards."
Life doesn't just become a "horrible test" just because I've chosen to be a Christian, I just end up deciding to accept life and make the most of it, by trying to do the best for myself and others.
"Life is reality to me, and without proof of a god, I will try to keep my thoughts true and with as little error as possible."
That's nice.
"If your god is real, I will accept that, but it has been proven that it is not real, with only excuses to hide behind."
God hasn't been proven to be not real, you cannot prove or disprove the existence of God.
Why did you dispute me if you have no argument for what you believe?
Yes, nearly everything can be disputed or picked apart, but the problem is that you are saying "God exists" and I am simply saying "I don't believe you." What I add to that, yes it does insult you and does assume things, but right now, you have told me what you think is right, and I simply don't believe you.
Yes, you can pick apart any argument, but it's clear you haven't done much research. You want unbiased evidence?
Is National Geographic suitable? Or is that liberal propaganda too?
If what that source is saying is true, this species, which looks like no animal alive today, except for humans, yet is slightly smaller, would be an ancestor, a form between primitive apes and humans.
There's another that certainly proves humans are quite a bit older than you say, and that they also evolved, yet while looking very ape like, they used tools far more advanced than any animal that exists today, besides humans.
I'm not really sure if you are trying to win a debate or just look silly.
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I mean, "Because you claim to disprove my God by equating it to menial objects such as toasters and sums like "1+1=3". My believe requires faith and not solid evidence."
Is that really the sort of thing you believe in? You believe it because you have "faith"?
Wow, good job.
"It is pointless to argue against religion. It has been proven wrong. "
Another assumption that you're version of the "truth" is the absolute truth. This is just like debating with Nummi and his version of "reality" or Avesantanas and his version of "logic".
There's a reason why it seems exactly the same. It's not that we are wrong and you are right, it's the opposite.
Are you saying you alone are right in contrast with all of us? That's not how it works. If some whose opinions and views are primarily built upon logic and reality say something is not real then that's how it most likely is. When it comes to religions and gods then they are just as much real as are Harry Potter, Twilight, (my favorite so far) A Tale of the Malazan Book of the Fallen, etc. They, including your religion and its stories and its characters that include god, are all fiction, they are all made up, that is indisputable and irrefutable fact! The only ones who truly say it is not fact are the religious themselves and they base that claim on their precious books. You cannot, you may not, use the book to support what the book itself says! Or anything that originates from the book; that is not how proving something works!
I'm not saying they're recycled, I'm saying they're all the same. You all follow the same blind, shallow, arrogance that you believe makes it right for you to use stereotypes and insults to support your arguments.
All he does is think logically and rationally, and includes evidence. Can you say the same about yourself? As long as you adhere to your idiotic beliefs you cannot.
You think if someone who's been provided so much evidence and logic that is all ignored and simply repeats the same bible crap over and over without thinking, and eventually says you'll burn in hell, or something similar, even insults. You think the response to that won't be you're stupid, an idiot, delusional, mentally ill, insane? Are you stupid? Of course you are, you've proved that many times, and now again. You give every reason to treat you as we do, not the other way around. Stop ignoring evidence and truth; stop ignoring reality and we'll treat you with more respect!
Ha, another assumption. The source for my knowledge comes from my experiences with people and my education and learning, pretty much similar to everyone elses.
Don't lie like this.
Your knowledge about your religion originates from the bible. And nowhere else. You heard it from someone else? Where did they get theirs? From the bible.
Lovely quote from Nummi there, which is so ignorant that I won't dignify it with a proper dispute.
That isn't a quote from me and it is not ignorant. Even though I have said things with exactly the same point. I have said them because they are true. There is no god. I've provided enough logic and evidence, and as usual, it is all ignored.
You won't dignify it with a proper dispute because a proper dispute to it doesn't and cannot exist. Because there is no god.
"There's a reason why it seems exactly the same. It's not that we are wrong and you are right, it's the opposite."
No, you just suffer the delusion that you are right. I have never said to anyone on this site that "everything you say is wrong because of what you believe" whereas you and your atheist buddies imply that in every argument you make.
"Are you saying you alone are right in contrast with all of us? That's not how it works. If some whose opinions and views are primarily built upon logic and reality say something is not real then that's how it most likely is. When it comes to religions and gods then they are just as much real as are Harry Potter, Twilight, (my favorite so far) A Tale of the Malazan Book of the Fallen, etc. They, including your religion and its stories and its characters that include god, are all fiction, they are all made up, that is indisputable and irrefutable fact! The only ones who truly say it is not fact are the religious themselves and they base that claim on their precious books. You cannot, you may not, use the book to support what the book itself says! Or anything that originates from the book; that is not how proving something works!"
You appear to have me confused with the imaginary Christian stereotype which you've conjoured up. I've yet to make a reference to the Bible (or the "book" as you call it).
"All he does is think logically and rationally, and includes evidence. Can you say the same about yourself? As long as you adhere to your idiotic beliefs you cannot."
I've already seen the height of his "logic", such as his wise statements of "1+1=2" and "logic is logical".
"You think if someone who's been provided so much evidence and logic that is all ignored and simply repeats the same bible crap over and over without thinking, and eventually says you'll burn in hell, or something similar, even insults. You think the response to that won't be you're stupid, an idiot, delusional, mentally ill, insane? Are you stupid? Of course you are, you've proved that many times, and now again. You give every reason to treat you as we do, not the other way around. Stop ignoring evidence and truth; stop ignoring reality and we'll treat you with more respect!"
Wow, that's a big rant of yours there. Maybe you should have done it all in capital letters like Srom did. I've never told anyone here to "burn in hell" because of their lack of belief.
"Don't lie like this.
Your knowledge about your religion originates from the bible. And nowhere else. You heard it from someone else? Where did they get theirs? From the bible."
You appear to have read a biography of my life that has yet to be written. Please show me all the "evidence" and "logic" you used to come up with the statement "your knowledge originates from the Bible and nowhere else".
"That isn't a quote from me and it is not ignorant."
I think you'll find that you're the expert on this site of the atheistic version of "reality" that Mackindale is referring to. The comment was ignorant, as no-one can prove or disprove God. Therefore assuming that God doesn't exist in "reality" is ignorant.
"Even though I have said things with exactly the same point. I have said them because they are true."
Oh dear, you've started to parrot Mackingdale (not very surprising). I see here that you've started to prove your statements by just saying that they are "true", is that really all the evidence you could find to disprove the notion of God?
"There is no god. I've provided enough logic and evidence, and as usual, it is all ignored."
Seriously, all you atheists refer to the huge amounts of "logic" and "evidence" but none of it ever seems to join in the debates.
I wonder why...
"You won't dignify it with a proper dispute because a proper dispute to it doesn't and cannot exist. Because there is no god."
How can I dispute anything you believe if you're deluded enough to think that everything that exits your mouth is "true" and supported by the "whole of science" and "logic" and all the "evidence" in the world.
You have 3280 points. So youve been part of CD for a long time, or you have absolutely no life. Either way, in that time i guarantee you've seen hundreds, if not thousands of thoughtfull, logical arguments against christianity, using every piece of evidence we have. Yet you claim to never see it. That is because you are blind. Like a horse, you have blinders on keeping you looking directly at religion while never seeing the literally MOUNTAINS of evidence we give. This is because you do what every christian does when confronted with it. You either A) make excuses for it, or B) ignore it completely. This makes you either incredible stubborn or ignorant. Probably both. You rarely give a half decent argument and NEVER back it up (when it comes to religion). Hell, what you just wrote was all nit picky opinions about the other persons argument while never actually disputing any of it. You simply re-route the conversation away from their evidence. You just ignored everything he just said. Although it was highly opinionated, you never gave any evidence to the claim why we have a delusion we are right. Or how we imply everything is wrong because of what you believe in every argument, or addressing where you get your information from when he said it was bible or word of mouth. You see what i mean? You just respond to the first sentence in an opinionated or sarcastic way while never refuting or addressing any info in the argument that you view as false.
Seriously, all you atheists refer to the huge amounts of "logic" and "evidence" but none of it ever seems to join in the debates.
I wonder why...
Because you are too blind to see it? Because you ignore it? Because you don't understand it? All very likely
I agree. This is why I am being so hostile to religion lately. I had a "dumbpiphany" with a creationist friend of mine, who was convinced beyond doubt that he was right, and upon showing him direct evidence that he was wrong about a certain aspect, even though I was on answersingenesis.com, and even THAT SITE was showing him the truth, he still refused to believe it, even after I found a more trustworthy source.
It's horrifying because I'm nearly convinced that religious people are not just "deluded" but the more strongly religious appear to be downright insane, going so far as pretending evidence isn't evidence, and only picking at my personal opinions, rather than the logic itself.
What do you think the goal of science is? Do you think that people invented these things just to attack your beliefs?
Or do you think the philosophers and scientists who thought of these concepts were simply trying to find out what was true?
Remember, the church lied about the sun orbiting the earth once. Why should I trust the church again? Based on evidence I posted in my last argument, if you apply the theory of evolution to those fossils, it would appear that over time, they evolved into people like us.
If the theory of evolution didn't exist, we would have fossils of something somewhat human looking, but not human looking. Where do we go from there?
What is the only conclusion from that? A great flood killed off... half humans? Or what? That doesn't make sense.
The only viable explanation is evolution, because it is logical if there is something that appears less developed and no longer exists, and there is something MORE developed, with the same traits, such as body shape, walking upright and smarter, then I would say either those things willed themselves into intelligent humans, or they evolved slowly over lots of time.
If your god did it, then why did he kill them at that stage? You think these guys are the people who died during the flood? They aren't people. They are tool using animals. No one even knows if it was possible for them to speak even. They were animals, perhaps you could even take it as a metaphor for before humans gained "knowledge of good and evil", as your Bible says.
However, your Bible does not mention evolution, so either these fossils don't exist, or evolution happened and your Bible is simply too old to have the most recent theories and discoveries in it.
But you already said you don't care about evidence or logic, right? So you can throw all this out without even thinking about it because your religion is an emotional investment to you. What I type won't convince you because you are already convinced you are right simply because you believe strongly. That's how your mind works, right? You keep saying don't guess your personality, but this is what will happen. My last two arguments I posted, including this one have quite enough in them to convince you that evolution must have happened. Three different ancestors, they all are found and dated to be older than the next, the oldest one being the most apelike, the most recent fossil shown to be more human like.
There is no excuse for this. If you saying something like god is just messing with us to test out faith, then it truly is worthless debating you, isn't it?
No, you just suffer the delusion that you are right.
I'm delusional? Yet you are the one taking fantasy as real. Get your head straight, not everyone is like you.
I have never said to anyone on this site that "everything you say is wrong because of what you believe" whereas you and your atheist buddies imply that in every argument you make.
Care to provide any evidence of that?
When it comes to your idiotic arguments for religion it has so far all been wrong. You are wrong because all you give is bullshit. You have NEVER provided any evidence while we have provided tons. Neither have you ever provided any logic. You spew religious bullshit that makes no sense at all. If you were sane you'd notice how wrong you are.
You appear to have me confused with the imaginary Christian stereotype which you've conjoured up.
Conjured up as in concluded from observation? That sounds about right.
I've yet to make a reference to the Bible (or the "book" as you call it).
And where have you gotten all your knowledge? The bible. You heard it from other people or read it somewhere else? Where did they get it, what were the texts based on? The bible. You got it all from the bible. All the nonsense you spew originates from the bible. Otherwise you could not know all the crap you do.
I've already seen the height of his "logic", such as his wise statements of "1+1=2" and "logic is logical".
How stupid can you be? Sorry, my bad... How delusional can you be? You can't even fathom something as simple logic. Ever heard of context? Ever heard of examples? Sure you have, but if they are against your bullshit beliefs you simply deny and ignore them.
Wow, that's a big rant of yours there.
Rant? You're such an idiot. It wasn't a rant. I'd say read it again but you have shown you simply ignore and deny what hurts your feelings and emotions (logic, evidence, reality). Pathetic.
Maybe you should have done it all in capital letters like Srom did.
Wtf? I'm not the religious lunatic here... you are, and srom of course.
I've never told anyone here to "burn in hell" because of their lack of belief.
I mentioned something about insults... Read it again if you mis... ignored those parts.
Please show me all the "evidence" and "logic" you used to come up with the statement "your knowledge originates from the Bible and nowhere else".
Where else could you have gotten all that nonsense that is exactly the same as others' I've "debated" with? Made it all up yourself? Your knowledge about your worthless religion originates from the bible, all of it originates from the bible. It is the only realistic explanation.
I think you'll find that you're the expert on this site of the atheistic version of "reality" that Mackindale is referring to. The comment was ignorant, as no-one can prove or disprove God. Therefore assuming that God doesn't exist in "reality" is ignorant.
It wasn't ignorant. The only thing you cannot prove nor disprove is some very powerful being or beings. God and gods that are part of stories that also include so much magic among much other nonsense are not real, they do not exist. Your god does not exist anywhere but in your own mind, as an imaginary friend.
Oh dear, you've started to parrot Mackingdale (not very surprising). I see here that you've started to prove your statements by just saying that they are "true", is that really all the evidence you could find to disprove the notion of God?
We have provided you evidence and logic so many times and so much...
A suggestion to you, stop ignoring evidence and logic. All it has done so far is show you as a delusional idiot. I'd go as far as mentally ill, or even with a severe mental disorder.
You know what would surprise me? If you somehow became sane. So far it's been just the same delusional you who likes to insult when evidence and logic and truth is provided.
Seriously, all you atheists refer to the huge amounts of "logic" and "evidence" but none of it ever seems to join in the debates.
That's because you skip all the evidence and logic. Or you do read but are so stupid and delusional, insane, that you simply cannot comprehend any of it.
I wonder why...
Go to a psychologist and you'll find out.
How can I dispute anything you believe if you're deluded enough to think that everything that exits your mouth is "true" and supported by the "whole of science" and "logic" and all the "evidence" in the world.
And more shit from delusions.
Instead of this worthless response of yours why not instead prove my claim "there is no god" wrong with logic and/or evidence? If you could actually do it you would have already!
Another problem: Equating god to a unicorn is very valid.
You think it's not because it insults your god, but for the purpose of logic, equating one imaginary thing that is unprovable and exists only according to legend and myth to another that is unprovable and exists only according to legend and myth is very fair.
And yes, religious people are very bad. Do you know why gay marriage is outlawed? Here's a hint. It's not because it caused 9/11, the holocaust, the crusades, many religious wars or caused tsunamis and other natural disasters.
Do you know why slavery was once legal in the USA, mainly in the more conservative and religious south?
Women's inability to vote?
Burning "witches"?
I mean, the list goes on and on, proving WITH EVIDENCE that religion is very bad, supported by the number of people who blindly believe without question.
You already don't think the Hindu Vedas is true.
You don't believe in the Kalevala.
You don't respect Odin.
You don't see lightning as a sign of Zeus.
Yet you believe your Bible.
There's a good reason I can insult your religion so easily. Your beliefs are stupid.
I read your comment "its impossible to see god until you die" What makes you so sure that without faith you will find out if god is real or not? should the unfaithful be rewarded with god?
Yes, those who have faith for no reason might very well be the ones who are punished for being gullible, while those who study and try to find truth might actually be the ones to be rewarded.
However, I am interested in science and philosophy.
A carpenter is interested in building, an engineer in designing machines, a cook makes food.
If you are good at what you are interested in and have passion without hurting or oppressing people, I see no reason why anyone should be punished or given hell for simply not believing.
But if there is a god, and that god is evil, I would expect those who aren't in his cult to go to hell.
I would not worship an evil god, so I would rather go to hell than pay tribute to an evil god I don't even think exists.
That's called feeling awesome knowing you helped someone or your society.
Even if you make money, if you start a business, you're offering a service to someone! That means you can help someone out.
That person will thank you. I often thank a business if I buy something from them and get exceptional service.
If it's pure altruism, then you often do get thanks. If you help someone out, people will thank you. Perhaps you don't get money, but when you're on your death bed thinking back over your life, who needs money anyways? Good deeds DO pay off, even if it's not a physical reward.
Doing the right thing is always important, even if there is no god. ESPECIALLY if there's no god or reward.
Why? Cause being bad isn't cool.
A chaotic-good alignment is perfect for me, cause even though I'm crazy, to a degree, I still do the right thing and reach for truth when I can.
You do that too, right? But your truth looks different from my truth. Keep studying and researching, and I will too.
If the truth is out there, we should both stumble upon the REAL truth eventually.
Equating god to a unicorn is very valid. You think it's not because it insults your god, but for the purpose of logic, equating one imaginary thing that is unprovable and exists only according to legend and myth to another that is unprovable and exists only according to legend and myth is very fair.
Doing this ignores the differences between necessary properties included in each "imaginary" (way to beg the question) thing's definition. I'm irreligious and this comparison invariably offends me, if only for its smugness and manipulation/uninformation.
(That was the only part of this post I was going to reply to, but I got carried away.)
Do you know why gay marriage is outlawed?
Unless you're going to introduce a strictly consequentialist ethical groundwork (which I, at least, think is more effort than this particular discussion warrants), please don't take it for granted that this is a bad thing. For the love of Dawkins, use less disputable examples.
9/11, the holocaust, the crusades
Women's inability to vote?
Burning "witches"?
To say that religion alone caused any of these things is a statement of devastating ignorance to historical forces.
many religious wars or caused tsunamis and other natural disasters.
Acceptance both of your own premises and of your opposition's in the same sentence is sloppy, even if it's intended to be funny. Especially so when you misrepresent those of your opponent.
Do you know why slavery was once legal in the USA, mainly in the more conservative and religious south?
I do! Do you? (Well, I don't really as this actually isn't true: the South was a lot less conservative [in the modern sense] in those days and pretty much everyone was religious. The religious right didn't come into being until after the left adopted the civil rights cause in the 1960s, a full century after American slavery had been abolished [partially as a result of the abolition of slavery].)
Your beliefs are stupid.
This can be said about every human being who has ever lived. Yet it is more dangerous to have stupid beliefs and assume that they have solid founding than to acknowledge that your stupid beliefs, like everything else, are definitionally imperfect.
And see this argument? You will rationalize what I said. You will not become an atheist, because despite the fact that everything I just said was true, you will still believe. Why? Well, if you had a good reason I wouldn't be an atheist.
"baby-duck syndrome" or something. New ideas are painful, especially ones based around the fundamental nature of reality.
However, as we can see, logic is logic for a good reason, and if you don't respect logic, then what in the world are you going to do in life? Just wait until you die so you can receive your reward, oppressing everyone who challenges you or does something you don't like? Oh well.
You make the assumption that everything you said is true and that I have no good reason to be a Christian. Then your argument drivels on to subtle insults and then blatant insults, full of assumptions and stereotypes.
You've only confirmed my judgement not to waste time picking apart your long arguments, because at the end of the day, you're just going to fall back on insults.
Even though you will continue to believe, as I said, despite the paradox "how did god get here", you still cannot prove your own views.
Again, I can say over and over "God do you exist?" out loud and I will not receive an answer.
Have you done that? Have you actually done that and received an answer from heaven, not just your own mind? Has another person heard it too?
Of course not. That will not happen because there is no god.
You will NEVER prove that there is a god, so although you say "Ugh, typical atheist", I am still right, however annoying that is to you. If I am wrong, then I am fine with that because the evidence does not point towards a god, so it would be counter intuitive to the maximum extent to think there is a god. Based on what I have to look at and logic that one cannot simply look at, I do not think gods or the supernatural exists.
"Even though you will continue to believe, as I said, despite the paradox "how did god get here", you still cannot prove your own views."
God has always existed, the "paradox" is similar to the mystery of what existed before the Big Bang.
Anyway, I'm not here to prove religion, I'm here to prove you cannot disprove it.
"Again, I can say over and over "God do you exist?" out loud and I will not receive an answer.
Have you done that? Have you actually done that and received an answer from heaven, not just your own mind? Has another person heard it too?"
Now I can see you recycle your arguments. You've already made this point in the debate so I shan't bother replying to it again.
"You will NEVER prove that there is a god, so although you say "Ugh, typical atheist", I am still right, however annoying that is to you. If I am wrong, then I am fine with that because the evidence does not point towards a god, so it would be counter intuitive to the maximum extent to think there is a god. Based on what I have to look at and logic that one cannot simply look at, I do not think gods or the supernatural exists.
Prove me wrong. Show me your god."
So the whole purpose of this debate was not to question whther religion has been proven wrong. You just made an aggresive title to provoke the more passive Christians on this site (such as me) to come join in on one of your 'Is God real/Atheism is true/Christianity is wrong' debates.
I've already said that God cannot be proven or disproven.
The Bible wasn't around forever. You haven't talked to your god.
Why should you believe this?
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And then you say your god can't be proven either way.
Why? Yes it can. It can be proven if it performs a miracle that only a god could perform. Something so incredibly extraordinary that nothing could ever compare to it.
Could the myth of Jesus satisfy this? Perhaps, but I think it would be best if it happened in modern times, not an ancient event. I would have to believe every religion if I believed that all religious text was true.
As far as being disproven, what does that mean? I can't disprove ANYTHING. Everything has a chance of existing.
By that, I mean that it is evident your god doesn't exist because you cannot prove it. There are ways of proving this god, but that god is most certainly very silent, isn't he? It's like he's not even here.
The Bible wasn't around forever. You haven't talked to your god.
Why should you believe this?"
The prophet Isaiah in the Bible states that God is the one who "lives forever" (Isaiah 57v15)
"And then you say your god can't be proven either way.
Why? Yes it can. It can be proven if it performs a miracle that only a god could perform. Something so incredibly extraordinary that nothing could ever compare to it."
So you want me, as a Christian, to command God to perform an all-powerful miracle (e.g blow up the sun and rebuild it) only for all the atheists a few generations later to demand the same thing?
"Could the myth of Jesus satisfy this? Perhaps, but I think it would be best if it happened in modern times, not an ancient event. I would have to believe every religion if I believed that all religious text was true."
I find it almost amusing about how you refuse t accept the existence of Jesus and only refer to him as a "myth".
"The large majority of modern historians agree that Jesus existed and regard events such as his baptism and his crucifixion as historical. Robert E. Van Voorst states that the idea of the non-historicity of the existence of Jesus has always been controversial, and has consistently failed to convince scholars of many disciplines, and that classical historians, as well as biblical scholars now regard it as effectively refuted. Referring to the theories of non-existence of Jesus, Richard A. Burridge states: "I have to say that I do not know any respectable critical scholar who says that any more.""
"As far as being disproven, what does that mean? I can't disprove ANYTHING. Everything has a chance of existing."
Exactly, hence my original argument in this debate.
"By that, I mean that it is evident your god doesn't exist because you cannot prove it. There are ways of proving this god, but that god is most certainly very silent, isn't he? It's like he's not even here."
Maybe he's speaking but you're not listening?
I'm annoyed about how you decided to ignore one of the main paragraphs of my argument. So let me repeat it for you and please try not to avoid it in your reply.
"So the whole purpose of this debate was not to question whther religion has been proven wrong. You just made an aggresive title to provoke the more passive Christians on this site (such as me) to come join in on one of your 'Is God real/Atheism is true/Christianity is wrong' debates."
The prophet Isaiah in the Bible states that God is the one who "lives forever" (Isaiah 57v15)
Ok. Should I believe a prophet? What about Muhammad? He speaks about your god too, only calling him Allah. What about Mormons? Why in the world does it matter what this prophet is saying? You know what I call a prophet? A liar or a stoner. If you don't have evidence when you make a claim, why should I believe you?
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So you want me, as a Christian, to command God to perform an all-powerful miracle (e.g blow up the sun and rebuild it) only for all the atheists a few generations later to demand the same thing?
Yes, I do. Do you think this is asking for too much? I don't. If your god is weak and lacks the energy to perform a miracle every 30 or so years why should I worship a god that does nothing? If your god doesn't care if I believe, then it can remain silent.
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The myth of Jesus is only that he was divine. I cannot know if he was actually a real person. I generally assume that he did live, because doing otherwise would only irritate people more than needed. However, Richard A. Burridge is a Christian scholar, and he appears to be a priest. It would not surprise me if he was heavily biased, seeing as he is a Christian scholar rather than a historian.
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Yes, although I cannot utterly disprove any idea, I do not bother to disprove elves. I do not waste my time talking to people who believe in elves in the chance they could convince me. I am starting to feel that way regarding religion. It appears to be completely made up and impossible.
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Maybe he's speaking but you're not listening?
Yes, maybe you are ignoring Odin and Thor and Zeus and Freya and Allah and Hermes and Ra and every other god that is shouting in your ears whom your ancient missionaries promptly kill the supporters of, thus introducing Christianity to Europe, rather than just confining it to the Middle East.
Do you ever wonder if you're wrong? That perhaps your god is actually not the father of Jesus? I mean, in the first book he sends down floods and plagues and horrible horrible things that are frightening and make him appear evil, despite how they call him good, and in the second, you get a person, Jesus, who does not cause plagues or really do anything like that at all.
Are they related? It does not appear to be that way.
Do you wonder if it is in fact completely different from what the Bible says, and perhaps Jesus was the same way Buddha was, just a person who wanted to try to bring peace without being a god? Maybe not all people are looking for money and wealth and only want people to get along and be peaceful and humble, and he thought calling himself a god was the best way to gather respect for that idea. However, you were not there, nor was I, so why should we make any assumptions, especially ones that lead to the idea that the supernatural exists? If you read in the news today that a teenage girl had given birth despite being a virgin, would you believe her? Would you believe it if a doctor had gone to a tomb, opened it and had a man walk out? Even with photos? I would believe it was some sort of trick.
What if you read about a person doing that 2000 years ago, back when evil spirits caused illness, when lightning was god's wrath and other such superstitions prevailed? I would say it was a trick based on a benevolent desire to influence the world to convince people that your message of peace was right and should be obeyed.
However, I cannot know. Why should I assume magic and gods when a trick, or even a write in years later would make Jesus famous?
If I do assume magic and gods, why should I only assume your magic and your gods? Why not all gods that have existed throughout history? Just because you have a personal relationship with Jesus?
If your god is speaking and I am not listening, that is a damn shame, however, being a god, there are ways to get people to listen. If he intends to play with me my entire life and wait until I'm an old man to do some bizarre miracle to convince me, thus wasting my entire life, I would still not worship him. If he is unwilling to talk to me directly, why should I respect this god or even believe it exists? Why should you believe? Because it feels right?
I have higher standards than that when I believe something that would alter the fundamental nature of reality for me. If there is or isn't a god is certainly a big deal, and I don't want to be wrong. That is why because there is no real evidence, I will not worship your god over any other god that exists.
There is no reason to believe you until your god does a miracle and thus claims it. You are basically reciting mythology otherwise and stating it as fact.
Golly, what an uneducated proclamation. Using the broadest possible definition, every proposition that falls under the "religious" banner--despite being supported primarily by faith among proponents (meaning rational argument as a means of mind-changing in particular is usually futile, as god is generally said to be found through love, not reason)--warrants individual evaluation. Disregarding the fact that those are potentially infinite, religion itself is so deeply ingrained in our culture, so indelibly intertwined with philosophy that for it to have been "proven wrong" would have implications far beyond I think the scope of your, my or anyone else's vision can reach. Shit, what a bad subject to issue categorical conjecture on. Wow.
You don't always have to argue seriously to get your point across; quite the contrary, sometimes humor is the best way to make a point. I'm sorry it doesn't agree with your personal opinions of what constitutes "correct" arguments, but I fine facetious responses are often those best suited to deal with facetious claims and propositions. Either way, whatever specific, isolated thing about this debate set you off to the notion I might be incapable of arguing non-facetiously is ill-founded.
In order to fairly address every claim made by your opponent, you've really gotta be serious about the thing. I say this only because humor is based in absurdity and the average reductio is somewhat manipulative if not outright fallacious. I mean, if all you care about is the appearance of winning the argument, yeah, Colbert it up. But if you actually care about the acquisition of capital-t truth, in order to argue fairly and conclusively, you have to take your opponent seriously. That's why I'm such a humorless faggot, anyway.
This seems to leave out the reality that people quite often say absurd things with all seriousness. So often one doesn't even need to bring the absurdity to the table in order to make light of it.
I get that you feel to properly address your opponents you feel you need to remain serious, but I don't see how this could possibly be objectively true. How are we suddenly incapable of obtaining the "capital-t truth" if humor is involved in its finding?
I agree. What my point is, should I personally continue to think about religion as a valid idea, or should I move on in life and forget about religion and try to ignore it as best as I can? Is there a decent chance it is true, or is it the sort of thing I should simply forget about and live my life without fear of an angry god? Should I continue debating religion or is it a dead-end subject with no evidence and no reason to believe it?
Is the supernatural completely disproved with logic and reason, or could I still be wrong?
The supernatural falls outside the bounds of logic. It is neither proven nor disproved and can't be.
But if you think it's possible to achieve the degree of certainty that precludes any idea from conceivably, ever, having any positive impact on your development as a human being as long as you live, you've probably already made some important choices that will lead to that position. That said, I think it's the wrong one.
Yes, that's what I'm talking about. It's beyond the scope of anyone's reach. You cannot ever know that a religion is correct, and based on logical arguments and evidence, there is no reason why any religion should be correct.
The universe and world appear to work based on natural functions and physics, not gods breathing life into sand or turtles that support the universe on their back. There is no evidence for religion, but there is evidence for natural processes that can make current religions pointless. The Big Bang and associated ideas can account for why the universe exists, and gravity can help us know why planets form, the Urey-Miller experiment helps us to know how over millions of years, basic elements can form amino acids, which can lead to life, and evolution explains how that life forms into complex species.
It is more complex than religion, but it is based on real evidence that I can prove, as long as one's mind is open. A creationist will deny this, but that's exactly it. They will ignore evidence and base their views on faith MINUS real evidence.
Even if religion is right, it is right for the wrong reasons. There is no reason to consider any religion to be true. They all appear to be invented by humans, so there is no reason at this point to respect them as valid and tenable ideas.
where has religion been proven wrong, disproving Christianity or any other religion does not disprove religion, that is just stupid, you cant even prove atheism
Mountains of evidence against christianity exists, but they are often ignorant and either make excuses for them (which never really disprove them) or ignore them completely. I honestly think christianity has been proven wrong due to huge amounts of evidence. i mean TONS of it. And you dont "prove" athiesm right. Athiesm is the result when you prove religion wrong.
I am agnostic, which means I think there is a possibility for everything, until someone proves it wrong.
Even religion. Like you said yourself, there is no evidence of religion existing or not existing, so why can't atheists live with the fact, that some believe, and religious people live with that some don't?
I say we quit this discussion, because it IS a dead end until someone proves the other one wrong. And really, I don't see what good it is gonna do, if someone manages to prove the other one wrong.
However, you are not gay, right? So you don't exactly feel that oppression caused by religion that many people do feel.
You were never an african slave either, a marked descendent of the murderer Cain.
However, you are a women, but you are lucky to have been born now, rather than back when women were not allowed to vote, due to the Bible saying women are to be subservient to men.
Yet, religion is not just an idea that can be argued either way. I would not even bother arguing it if it was only a belief system with no negative real world effects.
Instead, people use this unprovable idea to oppress others and cause war and instill fear and obedience in people, and that is not something I support.
I am although not against religion itself, I am against people having opinions they shouldn't have, like not letting a man marry a man.
Some would call me disrespectful of other's opinions by saying that - but seriously, I can't respect all opinions. I would never respect a man, who's opinion was, that if all jews were dead, all world problems were over. I can't respect such an opinion, neither can I respect opinions where people say that homosexuality is unnatural.
I don't know if I went totally out of the subject there, but my point was, that I think you're right when you say, that religion has very bad affects, but we shouldn't fight religion, we should fight the people.
Because there are religious people, with decent modern opinions.
I'm not really sure what you mean. I think we do agree, because it's not as if I'm some crazy atheist who debates and insults every christian I meet, but on a debate site, it does feel good to destroy a person's argument and then insult them a few times, for good measure, just to assure them that what they believe CAN be insulted because it is not something I respect.
I do respect Buddhism, why not? It is not a bad religion. If I wasn't into science as much as I was, I would certainly be buddhist, I think.
But the religions that this debate point to, religions detailing literal supernatural events and rules that hurt people not only in their religion, but the rest of society is NOT something I respect or support.
I was once religious, so it is not like I am just some outsider insulting something I don't understand. I have argued against religion with logic, emotion, fairness, good vs evil, real world events like how some people are born into poverty, and real universe events like the big bang and the evidence that evolution happened.
Because I can use evidence to prove myself right, along with an assortment of other means, and religious people cannot, does not give me the right to simply insult them.
However, in their mind, I am doomed to suffer forever in a horrible pit of hell, and other people around them, non-christians and christians are oppressed in the real world.
That is a good reason for me to look down on them. An unprovable idea is fun to think about, like subjective reality vs matrix reality vs objective reality, because that doesn't lead to people getting bullied for being born a certain way, or for using logic and learning things in order to try to understand the universe.
A religion is not so friendly, cursing doom and hell on those who don't believe exactly what they do.
It is impossible to prove, as I said, so I will not respect such a violent and impossible institution.
As an Agnostic Atheist, while I disagree with the ideas of religion, I do not disagree with the ideals. The Bible, Qu'ran, or any other religious texts lack credibility merely by disagreeing with each other on any possible "fact". However, Religion, especially Christianity and Catholicism as I have experienced, are beneficial in terms of teaching morals and ethics. I feel that if we could remove the link that has been forged between religion and morality, we could move forward in society.
There's no telling what's behind the veil until you look behind the veil. Simple as that to me, really.
Do I think making pretty narrow claims about what -is- behind the metaphorical veil is a good thing? Nope. Science tends to figure things out better and more accurately than fairy-tales.
Unless you guys still believe that Zeus is the source of thunder and that maggots spontaneously spawn in rotten meat just 'cuz.
Honestly. Has anyone ever pointed that out? A lot of the notions we had about the world 'back then' have been disputed and proven wrong. Does anyone here still believe the world is flat?
Are you noticing a trend? We are good at getting shit wrong until someone comes along to put in the actual work to make it right by proving it right.
See, ideas with little to no evidence that are ancient are usually pretty fucking wrong. So religion is stupid because it's audacious.
Right. I'm rambling. I only come here late at night apparently.
I am sorry but atheism is a hard method to convert people. The fasting growing communities is mormons and islam (whihc used to be first) people are not looking at atheism because they are simply not interested. Sure this site may have many atheists but compared to the worldwide population its just another category. Even if one is able to prove religion wrong who is going to look at what the media has crafted, "the way life is." There is a lot of optimistic people who prefer religion which has brought people together but in division of different types of religion. And if everyone was atheist, people would fight about ethnicty and what is the best type of atheist. So the fact of having atheism as a way to end religious conflicts won't do anything. Personally, I am not saying this to defend religion but just making logic.
If this man who has the documents to prove religion wrong and went on the news to prove it many people would respond by, "well, he has the answers but how could that be true if so many people believe in ____." Or so some people respond, "He has the answers so I am going with him. Wait a second.... That is just one person!" I'll just make this in a nutshell, it takes a lot to bring down a fortress. You gonna need a lot of firepower to bring it down and atheism needs to grow more to finally end the religion argument. There is only one nation which has a stastical balance amount of belief in god, spirite, or nothing at all, which is France. Estonia, Czech, and Sweden believe more in a spirite than god but either or its still not atheism.
Oh no, I don't mean the argument. I KNOW that religion is gonna be around for awhile.
But as far as the logic and evidence goes, is an atheist completely justified and essentially correct when they say there is no reason to believe in the existence of a god?
Is there a chance that atheists will ever be proven wrong, or is atheism how the world and reality really is? Godless completely.
And if everyone was atheist, people would fight about ethnicty and what is the best type of atheist.
I don't think so because atheists don't believe in anything, the reason there is conflict is because there are different beliefs, the term atheist wouldn't exist if theism never existed, and you can't fight about non-beliefs. I see your point though that people will always have conflict with each other, like ethnicity, sexual orientation, and etc, but these will have nothing to do with atheism itself. It would be more accurate to say people will be arguing about who's the best person. It's not like anyone is going to say "my lack of belief makes more sense than your lack of belief" because a lack of belief doesn't need justification or an argument behind, every atheist has the reason for not believing in a god, and that is there isn't a reason to believe in a god.
There really is no variation when it comes to lacking beliefs in god, the only way I can see atheists arguing with each other over atheism would be gnostic atheists v.s. agnostic atheists, which I think the percentage i would guess would be 99% agnostic v.s. 1% gnostic, which even then that would most likely die down because the difference in percentages and because arguing over weather or not there is proof god doesn't exist would be a nitpicking argument that most people wouldn't care about, AND any gnostic atheists wouldn't be so attached to their way of thinking compared to the religious to the point they would admit defeat to the agnostic atheist a lot faster than the stubborn theists.
Yes, I think fights and arguments at that point will be completely harmless and friendly.
Right now, religion does separate people in HUGE ways.
Religious people think I will go to hell for being atheist, that gays to hell for being gay, that people of other religions will go to hell for having their religion, then they have all the other problems like war justification and other social issues...
It would eliminate terrorism in the form of religion, and without religion, why does a holy land matter?
Why do you need oil if you are working for science without the thought that God will save the land from pollution? Thorium fuel could be used without pollution problems, perhaps, and although religion doesn't hold it back really, if people wanted something to fill their life with, instead of religion, you'd get people going into and spending money on things that are actually important, like building farms in third world countries or energy that doesn't kill the earth.
But all that aside, the point is that without religion, the world would mostly be a better place, better enough to dislike religion and argue it on a debate site.
Why do you think their is a section in Christianity called apologetic? Apologetic means defending the faith.
Actually Christianity has been proved that is what correct because of the vast amount of archaeological evidence that archaeologists have found related to the Bible and they even archaeologists found evidence to prove that the Bible was true and scientists.
They actually found the opposite. Fossils prove that humans came from Africa, near Asia, as predicted by evolution. They DIDN'T come from Eden, wherever Eden was supposed to be. Middle-East, I think.
So right away, you have that wrong.
Not only that...well, I'm sure I've said all this before. You are just ignoring it because you don't care about the truth.
You're just a damned christian, forced into a hell of believing mindless dogma and bullshit.
Yes they did because they found people, places, and buildings related to the Bible. For example no one thought King Herod was a real king but they found real coins bearing his name on it and such a king in fact did exist.
They actually found the opposite. Fossils prove that humans came from Africa, near Asia, as predicted by evolution. They DIDN'T come from Eden, wherever Eden was supposed to be. Middle-East, I think.
The Garden of Eden was suppose to be by the Euphrates River.
Not only that...well, I'm sure I've said all this before. You are just ignoring it because you don't care about the truth.
Why am I writing back to you then if you say I am ignoring you? Ignoring you would mean not even replying back to your argument. Correct? You think I don't care about the truth?
In my definition God says you are lost! I have found the Truth and the Truth can set you free of all that delusional things and your lack of belief in God.
You're just a damned christian, forced into a hell of believing mindless dogma and bullshit.
I could say the exact same thing to you but I choose not to because I am suppose to love one another. Do you think I want you to go to hell? No! I want you to be saved and get into heaven but its not my choice its yours but if you continue to be an atheist then your are hopeless and considered lost and I can't help you anymore and let God deal with you when you die, but if you are going to be atheist for the rest of your life then I guess you can say that your going to hell.
Huh? Finding things related to the Bible isn't really unexpected. I'm sure Mt Sinai exists in real life, as does Egypt and Israel. But I am not talking about details like locations and names of people. I am talking about the SUPERNATURAL.
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The Garden of Eden doesn't exist... otherwise we would see the angel guarding it with a FLAMING sword. There is no angel, and certainly no flaming sword.
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You are writing back because you want to convert me. If I don't believe what you believe, then you want me to change my mind because anyone who doesn't believe exactly what you believe will suffer for some reason.
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You think I will go to hell because of my choice? Oh no, it is GOD'S CHOICE.
Not mine. If there is an all seeing god, then he will read right now "GOD, I DO NOT WISH TO GO TO HELL, BUT I WILL NEVER BELIEVE IN YOU WITHOUT ADEQUATE PROOF."
Ok, so now it's god's decision.
If your god exists and has read that, he knows that he can now save me, or not. It's no longer my choice, it looks like. If your god is evil, then he will go against my will and damn me. If he does not damn me, then he is likely not Yahweh, and he is not your god, and in fact, it is more likely YOU will be in hell. I mean, I'm sure Odin doesn't appreciate what you are saying.
So in other words, it's not my choice any longer, for if your god wishes to make me suffer, he will have to drag me kicking and thrashing into the depths of the burning pit. And if I can, I will take him with me. In my opinion, Jesus didn't suffer enough. Jesus is famous now and loved by millions. You know that gay kid who got made fun of and was eventually killed for it? I don't know his name because he's not famous and he's not considered a god by people.
Yeah, he suffered because of your bullshit religion.
Its not God's choice for you to go to heaven or hell. The ball is in your court that is why we have free will. God gave the first humans on earth specific instructions to etheir believe in God or rebel and turn away. God isn't going to force you to believe or send you to hell.
Its the person who doesn't believe in God who sends themselves to hell since they choose not to believe in hell and its the same reason for heaven its the persons choice if they want to follow Christ.
No, the ball is in your god's court. I already said I don't want to go to hell. If your god is going to damn me against my FREE WILL, my desire to NOT go to hell, then it is your god who is doing it, not me.
Ok you said that you don't want to go to hell well at least change so you don't want to go to hell. Its not God that changes His opinion you have to change and earn your way into heaven. God is not going to change for you. You have to change yourself.
If you don't want to go to hell I suggest ask Jesus into your life so you can be saved and forgive you of your sins that you committed against him then you won't go to hell.
How do we have free will if God says "You can believe in me and go to heaven. Or you can not believe in me, and go to hell". You're essentially forced to pick the first option. It's not true free will at that point.
Why do you think their is a section in Christianity called apologetic? Apologetic means defending the faith.
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Why do I think? Because Christianity is a useful tool to control people. You think you're free?
To me, it looks like you're the slave of a false religion and a false god, obeying strange commands that were written by people who wanted power over fools.
Why do I think? Because Christianity is a useful tool to control people. You think you're free?
Christianity doesn't control anyone. We just follow God's teaching for what He gave to us. We have a choice to believe it or despise it. Yes in fact I am free, free of the slave of sin and knowing full well I am no longer dead in my sins but I am a born again Christian who know I can ask God to forgive me of my sins and He will do it.
To me, it looks like you're the slave of a false religion and a false god, obeying strange commands that were written by people who wanted power over fools.
Again its up to the person to believe in it. If we were slaves of Christianity wouldn't God command us to do more things that what He already said He wanted us to do and ask us to do it? No, He hasn't added more things then what He has already said to do.
History says otherwise. For example, in Europe a few centuries ago, pope leo VI i think (not that it matters) told people that they could pay the church money and their sins would be abolished. This was called indulgence. It had nothing to do with being a good person or anything about the religion, just straight up, pay the church and you get to go to heaven. Now obviously this is wrong and in response to this a man named Martin Luthor started the protestant reformation. But this shows just one of many examples of people's faith and more so the fear of hell being used to manipulate people. Another example would be the crusades. The whole "taking back the holy land" is a pitiful excuse for it. The leaders wanted land. Period. What better way to raise an army then by using peoples faith to get them to do what they wanted? Things just like this have occured countless times throughout history, and still do today. If we have that choice to believe or not, then why has the religion spread by means of war across thousands of miles throughout history? People forced to convert or die. It was a great tool for control of the masses and a drive to expand and conquer. Also, it is kind of slave-like. They're not called the 10 suggestions. They're the 10 COMMANDments. As in, you do these or go to hell. So not only is this blatantly forcing you to do these things, but it also throws in a scare tactic to make sure you do them. Think about it, if hell was never mentioned in christianity and if you did bad things you got no punishment, would you really follow these teachings? Do you think christianity would have spread so far, let alone still be followed today? Of course not. Hell and satan have been tools for enslaving peoples minds through fear for hundreds of years.
In response to the second paragraph no, god has not told us more things to do. Come to think of it, he hasnt done ANYTHING for quite a long time. And the world has sure gone to shit as far as christainity is concerned. That being said, wheres god?
No aside from that lets address what god has "told us to do". Now this is merely my opinions, however im not going out on a limb here. Im sure many will agree with me.
Ok, so what has god said?: Dont kill, great. Dont steal, will do. Dont work on the sabbath or ill kill you, ....wait what? Kill witches, why? Stone gays to death, um...why? Kill disobedient children, thats fucked up. Kill unbelievers, wait, what about free will god? Dont masturbate, why do you care?! No sex before marriage, again why do you care?! Ok this is how you do a sacrifice: (leviticus 1), DA FUCK?! I NEED to be worshipped dont worship other gods, ok now you're just being an attention whore.
Ok i think you get it. For the record this is only a fraction of these "teachings". Now what can we observe? These are highly immoral, evil, disturbing, and simply wrong to a normal person. Thats obvious. What can also be observed not only from these teachings but from gods actions in the bible as well, is that god is very petty. Human even. Hmmm....i wonder why? Maybe cuz it was WRITTEN by HUMANS? Why would an almighty creator of the universe: 1) care about our tiny planet at ALL in this infinate universe of billions of galaxies? and 2) care about what the males of one tiny species do with their genitals and what they do on sundays? It makes no sense! All these things are things only MEN would care about! Why does god care about our sexlives? Because WE care about our sex lives! And certainly some sheep herders in the desert 2000 years ago would as well. Also, studies have shown that the bible has been changed hundreds of times. Why? So more MEN could put in their own 2 cents about how life should be. That is why there are so many contradictions in it (look it up). Now this is just my thinking, but it looks pretty obvious that this is the work of humanity. Just sayin..
But people wrote the Koran, not God. You're a Muslim, right?
You fully believe the Koran, every word.
From the Garden of Eden to the flood that wiped out most of mankind.
Even though there's no evidence, you fully believe in the Koran, which is the same as the Torah, which is the same as the Old Testament of the Christian Bible, minus small cultural differences.
But really now, do you really REALLY believe that "god" or "Allah" wrote the Koran? Of course not, it was men who did it.
Muhammad, Jesus, Moses, all written by man.
Same with the Hindu Vedas. You've never even read that book, have you?
Well, it's fine to be deluded and use lots of weird capital letters to show how True everything is.
I mean, you know. It's just ritualistic bullshit.
Like the sort of thing some crazy stone age person would do.
But yeah, you are a slave in my eyes. Your god doesn't exist, yet you still believe the words written by men looking to control others.
So sad.
When a person says "born again Christian", I see the words "I sold my soul to a demon that doesn't exist."
But it's fine to believe what you want. Please don't hurt anyone though. Religious people are often very very violent.
Muhammad threw out all the idols and picked the moon god idol. And also if you look at the Islamic sign its a symbol of the moon which represents the moon god. Yah you are correct man wrote the Koran because the prophecies that he wrote were wrong. Here is a link that shows that the Koran has scientific errors: http://www.chick.com/information/religions/islam/errors.asp
The real God from the Bible prophecies are 100% accurate and NOT 1 prophecy has failed unlike all other religions.
Yah I believe that the Old Testament is apart of the Bible, but what is the Old Testament the Old Testament has the creation of the earth, the fall of man, history of Israel and the coming Messiah to save us from our sins . Also the OT predicted all of the powerful kingdoms that would come to power before it actually happened (no other religious book has ever predicted that) like for example the Meads and the Persians, Babylonian Empire, Roman Empire, and even the revived Roman Empire which is currently today called the European Union. The Old Testament is the story of Israel and prophecies and so far the prophecies have come true because Jesus fulfilled 30 prophecies but the only thing he hasn't done yet is come back and which He will come back.
Also the Bible is more reliable than the Koran because they actually eyewitnesses some of the things where as the Koran plagiarized some of the things of the Bible but added their own words to it.
Yet you are correct that the Muslims are very violent and when it is the last time you have seen or heard of a Christian suicide bomber? You haven't because Christians don't do those things. Its mostly the Muslims who are killing the Christians and everyone else they went Islam to be the number 1 religion in America and they want to take over the whole world like they are trying to do in England.
You might ask what about the Crusades that killed people in Jesus's name those weren't actual Christians because what is a Christian? Christians follows Jesus's teachings and Jesus never said to kill in His name unlike Islam who kills people who don't believe in allah the moon god.
Ok, so I'm pretty sure that you Christians don't even have the balls to kill yourself too.
You just kill others, it seems.
But no, the Bible doesn't have perfect accuracy. You're a dumbass if you think it does.
So yes, you are a dumbass. Lol. I'm not going to waste my time debating you though. Your god is a fake just like Allah, who is the exact same god. You worship the moon god too. Allah is just another word for "god" which is what you believe in.
So yes, you are a dumbass. Lol. I'm not going to waste my time debating you though. Your god is a fake just like Allah, who is the exact same god. You worship the moon god too. Allah is just another word for "god" which is what you believe in.
If your not going to waste time debating with me why did you respond to me in the first place? It makes no sense!
Did you read what I said? I had proof that allah is the moon god and their was links. There is a huge amount of difference between Christianity and Islam
See I am being kind and right now all your doing is being insulting and mean right now! Why can't you just debate without getting angry? It seems you are angry
If you didn't read what I said I suggest you leave because I provided evidence that allah was the moon god. And you think I am close-minded? Look at what your writing to me! Your ignoring major points that I just stated and now your walking away like a coward! WOW this is the first time and atheist like you would quit debating with me. Oh boy I actually won!
Go ahead and read it if you dare. I wonder if your god will smite you if your touch it.
I mean, you have no free will because you're a slave to your god.
The evidence? You won't read the Koran.
Do it or you lose this argument and I have proven your god doesn't exist. If you can't even take a risk and read a book that might educate you as to another religion, then you don't care about truth, and you are wrong wrong wrong. Even if you end up being right and I burn in hell, I will still laugh at you for being a coward.
If your faith in your god is True, then you will buy that book and read all of it. Believe that book? No way, but you should read it. $10 isn't much.
Do it do it do it you damned coward or you'll burn in atheist hell.
I REBUKE YOU IN THE NAME OF JESUS CHRIST AND WHAT YOU SAY AGAINST ME AND GOD. I HAVE HAD ENOUGH AND I AM DONE! NEVER DEBATE WITH ME EVER AGAIN! IT IS HOPELESS EVEN DEBATING WITH YOU SINCE YOU NEVER EVER GET WHAT I AM TRYING TO SAY!
I SUGGEST YOU LEAVE AND NEVER COME BACK EVER AGAIN YOU MAKE THIS SITE WORSE THAN IT ALREADY NEEDS TO BE! I HOPE JESUS COMES QUICKLY SO HE WOULD PROVE YOU WRONG AND THEN YOU WOULD WISH THAT YOU WOULD HAVE LISTENED TO ME INSTEAD OF IGNORING ME AND IT WOULD BE YOUR FAULT THAT YOUR IN HELL!
GOODBYE AND I DON'T WANT TO EVER SEE OR HEAR FROM YOU EVER AGAIN SO LEAVE RIGHT NOW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I also found his caps lock inspired rant entertaining.
But I think you are a little too hostile towards believers. I mean, calling him a dumbass, even though his beliefs are far fetched? Come on. Everyone deserves a basic level of respect, Christians too. Unprovoked insults have no place in debates.
Who knows if I am insulting Srom? He had plagiarized writing before and claimed it as his own. I cannot know if anything he says is original. Not only that, but he is not using evidence to base his beliefs on, which means I cannot logically argue against his points because he does not accept logic as important, nor does evidence mean very much to him. He looks at only the smallest event or "evidence" like coins having the name of a king on them, and from there deduces that the earth is 6000 years old and that evolution is false and the big bang, despite evidence, did not happen, and that not only all that, but that his god is surely real, and that he will be immortal forever by believing in it.
After I have debated this over 400 times, I have no more respect for those beliefs. They now appear only to be completely harmful to society, and illogical and stupid in every aspect. At this point in the world, with internet and books that are so cheap, ignorance is a choice.
Also, after he had directly insulted Islam and called Muslims violent, I no longer had any desire to hold back. Upon such an attack on another religion, which is based on nearly the same thing he believes, I had lost every speck of respect for him and his beliefs.
The fact that he lies to insult their religion further, calling their god a false moon god, also angers me. He is making things up based on those weird bible websites which use only the most erroneous information. That is extremely hostile to Muslim culture, which is beyond an argument, and going straight into hate-crime territory.
I universally denounce all religions and supernatural beliefs, based on logic and their own holy books, while Srom has simply insulted another religion similar to his simply because he read it on a website biased to the point of outright lying. I cannot respect that, it would feel wrong to respect that.
who told you can be in this? What did I tell you stop sticking your nose into other people's business! Would you kindly just shut up! I don't care if you say that they have right. If I was the creator I would have banned him and you and many others so why don't you piss off.
So much idiocy in that paragraph, I don't even know where to start...
1) Didn't I already explain this to you, Srom? I will respond to whatever I want, as long as it's in the public. And, guess what...? This debate is public, therefore I can respond to it. You have no jurisdiction over me.
2) You would have banned him, simply for engaging you in debate? Surely you understand how stupid that sounds, no?
You have the annoying tantrums of a child. Whenever someone reapeatedly argues against you, you feel you have the right to claim it to be "harrasment" or "bullying," but you feel you have the ability and right to post whatever you wish...
Srom, I will give you this powerful advice. It will make you win your next argument if you listen to it.
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What makes you believe?
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What has convinced you that God is real?
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Why do you believe?
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And now the important part.
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Why in the world should I believe you? Why in the world should I believe your Bible and not the Koran or the Vedas or the Kalevala or the hundreds of other religious books and religions that exist.
You might say "Jesus is special because he died for us", but that will not convince me. Do you think it will?
Do you think saying that will make me a believer?
You already know I want real evidence, not just someone telling me what to believe.
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Please convince me. I have deduced based on previous arguments, a LOT of arguments that I do not care to repeat, that your beliefs are based on faith, not truth, while mine are based on logic and evidence.
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If I do not have faith, what is something you can say that will give me faith? What can you say that will convince me you are right?
Right now, I have no fear at mocking your god. I do not think it is real at all. It is imagination and stories to me.
He showed me a way to get rid of my sins and shows me the right way to get to heaven and that He took my sins and died for them and the He rose from the grave and proving that He is God no one has risen from the grave expect for Him.
What has convinced you that God is real?
I have researched not only the Bible but also other Christian websites and books that are proof to me that God is real.
-Their is scientific evidence
-Archaeological evidence
-Biological evidence
-And astronomical evidence
Why in the world should I believe you? Why in the world should I believe your Bible and not the Koran or the Vedas or the Kalevala or the hundreds of other religious books and religions that exist.
If you have read what I said before which you probably didn't or didn't accept the fact that I gave it to you but I guess I will say it again just for you to hear. :D
Jesus has fulfilled 30 prophecies and no other religion's god's fulfilled any. Jesus was the only one that fulfilled a prophecy.
If I do not have faith, what is something you can say that will give me faith? What can you say that will convince me you are right?
In this link it says why we need faith and you must read it and see what you think
That is why they worship it and pray to it, facing it when they pray.
Muhammad was a prophet as well. "The Last Prophet", or so they say. That would imply that Muhammad also fulfilled prophecies, just like your Bible did.
However, I don't believe EITHER of them.
I don't think the supernatural is real, and it will take more than a clever argument to convince me. However, I have not even see a clever argument.
You think the Earth and all life was made in 6 days? There's evidence that says it didn't.
You think the great flood happened? There's evidence that says it didn't.
You think Jesus was the Messiah and lived and healed people? A wonderful tale, if true, but I would also have to believe in Odin, Zeus, Ra, Allah and every single god that exists.
There is evidence of a lot of stuff, but putting it together to form truth is much more difficult. What you are saying does not look like the truth. You really think the supernatural is real?
You think people will burn in hell?
You think you will be immortal and be in heaven forever? Why?
That makes no sense. You haven't seen Jesus, have you? God hasn't talked to you, right?
If he has, then please tell me what he said. Please tell him to talk to me, so I can believe too.
I was once a Christian, so I do know exactly how you feel. I would say I was likely a much stronger Christian than you even! I had done a lot of research and I had very strong faith. Yet, the more I researched and learned, the less I believed.
It is strange. You would think learning about Jesus and the Bible would make you believe more, but it actually does the opposite.
But honestly, it was a fun read. Very stupid, but entertaining.
GOODBYE AND I DON'T WANT TO EVER SEE OR HEAR FROM YOU EVER AGAIN SO LEAVE RIGHT NOW!
Perhaps you should be the one to leave? Considering you are the one doing all the ignoring... But then again you've tried leaving before, didn't work out well it seems, as you are still here.
No I am not attacking that religion I was telling you what they do. I was just stating the facts. If you get offended for me telling you the facts I am sorry but the truth hurts. Its true that they do kill people and they are violent. You hear a lot of things happening about Muslims and they do kill people and they are violent.
You know what a peaceful Muslim says when people say that? "Those people aren't true Muslims. Islam is a religion of peace, and those people are not part of us. We only want peace."
That's why you say about crusaders.
It's the same thing. You think anyone wants to be part of murder, except murders? Of course not.
Christians are IN THE MIDDLE EAST KILLING MUSLIMS. For oil, for god, for "freedom". The military is mainly Christian, as is the entire USA, so I would say it is Christians killing Muslims. A few insane extremists bombed a building. You think the rest of the few million Muslims also bombed stuff? No, they are still alive because they aren't insane suicide bombers.
Same with YOU. Christians don't have suicide-martyr culture as strongly as Muslims do, but you do make life tough for gays and atheists and other people who do things your bible has outlawed.
Who gives a crap if you think that it reminds me of him it doesn't bother me anymore all of the things you say are nonsense and I don't believe it anymore starting right now! I know I am not hitler and I will never be like him ever.
That is the Islamic god allah because that is the moon god idol they found and which muhammad kept and they even have on the islamic flag a moon symbolizing that they believe in the moon god.
Like, a comic book. Are you trolling me or are you really that stupid?
I mean, it's not even an insult at this point. I can't imagine what sort of idiot would believe some corrupted comic like that, which basically lies and insults an entire religion, while supporting their own bullshit religion.
Your god is evil, and christians are evil.
Perhaps not all act evil and do evil deeds, but your religion is pure corruption.
You are tainted with it, dripping with the glistening, dark venom of purest and most vile hell.
http://www.godallah.com/moon_god.php this link explains why the Islam flag is a moon. Also Allah means god so you are calling your own god a moon god. Alsohttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moon-God_Allah has many other references proving the Islam Allah is not a moon god.
Yes, I have done quite a few excellent arguments in the past, but after seeing theists unable to defend anything, finally resorting to telling me "prophecies" prove the bible 100% correct in every aspect, I really start to lose respect for religious people who believe it that strongly.
Of course, I am also enjoying getting Srom mad. I mean, even though it is difficult to be as annoying as I am, perhaps Srom just needs to think of it another way. If logic doesn't get to him, perhaps my direct mocking of his religion and god might show that his "god" is completely powerless in every aspect.
I have made over 400 arguments that have been very logical, filled with calm reasoning and whatnot, so I am just trying a new technique. 4chan style.
No they found huge amounts of archeological evidence AGAINST the bible. Its no mystery that a few people and places existed that were talked about in the bible. Also, does the fact that these people or places existed prove the whole bible is true? absolutely not. Neither do they prove that anything written about the people or places is necessarily true, such as things they did, or what events happened in those places. Most bible scholars, historians, and archeologists will agree that most of the bible is untrue. It's basically a faction: a piece of fictional literature based on or containing some real locations or characters.
For example, its no mystery that Jerusalem exists. But that doesn't prove that jesus walked on water. Get it?
Yes, that's exactly what I said too. Of course the Bible isn't 100% untrue.
I mean Harry Potter takes place in England. Does that mean Hogwarts is really a wizard school up in Scotland?
Of course not. Even though there is map of the London Underground on a scar on Dumbledore's knee, even though the Underground is a real place, I don't think Dumbledore is real.
It's the same with religion. Of course some details coincide with reality, but the supernatural bits? I've never SEEN a man walk on water (actually I have, but he had special shoes on), so I would not assume it actually happened.
Well atheism has been growing within the last few years, and from what I have observed I think there has been a correlation of more argument, the more we express ourselves, the bigger it grows, inch by inch. Anyways I always think the same thing, but it is soooo fun to argue something that I can always win XD, maybe some can see that as kind of pathetic, however it's all for shits and giggles and i'm sortive an enthusiast, and who knows, maybe I can get someone to at least question there beliefs (which if not convinces them will force them to have more moderation) and that's worth it to me.
I agree. I mean, I used to believe it, so it's not like it's the same as believing in the concept of Huipiornoandfon which I just made up now. There is ancient legend to religion, which makes it interesting to think about.
Even believing that legend, as someone here called Birggy wisely said "Stories to be believed in" is interesting. The concept that it's "sorta" true, in the sense that it's just a legend makes it fun.
But then you get some people who actually think that biblical prophecy and mythology trumps science and evidence and it almost feels like they're lying or insane. Their arguments are weak, but how they state them is so incredibly strong, you'd think they'd have some sort of strong evidence for the issue.
But they don't! That's the strangest thing, that even though they have so much faith, they can't prove it.
It's like, maybe it's something I'm missing, but then I remember that I was religious too once, and I believed just as strongly as they did for absolutely no reason.
So it would appear that there isn't some divine voice whispering truth to them, except among the insane, who could include religious terrorists, people who shoot up abortion clinics, people who bully or murder gay or transgender people and other religious nuts who do nutty stuff.
It is horrifying, but their ideas have been proven on here to NOT be valid ideas. They don't seem to even be worth thinking about. They are completely wrong with no basis in reality whatsoever.
agree. I mean, I used to believe it, so it's not like it's the same as believing in the concept of Huipiornoandfon which I just made up now. There is ancient legend to religion, which makes it interesting to think about.
Even believing that legend, as someone here called Birggy wisely said "Stories to be believed in" is interesting. The concept that it's "sorta" true, in the sense that it's just a legend makes it fun. But then you get some people who actually think that biblical prophecy and mythology trumps science and evidence and it almost feels like they're lying or insane. Their arguments are weak, but how they state them is so incredibly strong, you'd think they'd have some sort of strong evidence for the issue.
But they don't! That's the strangest thing, that even though they have so much faith, they can't prove it.
It's like, maybe it's something I'm missing, but then I remember that I was religious too once, and I believed just as strongly as they did for absolutely no reason.
So it would appear that there isn't some divine voice whispering truth to them, except among the insane, who could include religious terrorists, people who shoot up abortion clinics, people who bully or murder gay or transgender people and other religious nuts who do nutty stuff.
It is horrifying, but their ideas have been proven on here to NOT be valid ideas. They don't seem to even be worth thinking about. They are completely wrong with no basis in reality whatsoever.
yeah I know what you mean, it is easier to believe in a legend than it is to believe something made up on the spot, I was always atheistic when I was little, just didn't conciously think about it, as I got a little older I got into spirituality a little bit and became just an agnostic (which still technically meant I was atheist but it meaning i didn't like to think of myself as a non-believer or a believer) and had different ideas how god plays into reality, then I got a little older and I happened to come across someone expressing their opinion on religion and how unrealistic it was and all of a sudden I could relate like deep down in me I never really believed in it, even when i did play with the idea I guess. I searched up more videos and I was starting to conciously realize how much B.S. religion is and how much i didn't really believe it although I had a desire to meet others like me and not feel alone in it which caused me to search for others that were a bit like enthusiasts, which is probably what makes me a little bit of an enthusiast.
Religion is a legend and a story that's been around for, well forever and I think that makes a big difference as I'll quote the charismatic yet horrible Hitler "If you tell a big enough lie and tell it frequently enough, it will be believed" and thus I am convinced religion and god has simply been ingrained into society over the years, its a ridiculous myth that has gotten so far to be sociably acceptable in primitive times when we weren't as rational and therefore we enter an age of reason yet can't cast out religion because it is too ingrained into society.
Of course it is! Any person who gets their morals from a book of beliefs is obviously a cretin! I am not going to go through all the obvious contradictions in it, and how many incredible stories there are e.t.c. All I am saying is, when ever you point out a fault in someones religion. Instead of arguing back by correcting that, they just say something unmeaningful and they're satisfied with that! Not once have I pointed out something wrong with religion and have been corrected! All the wars, unfairness throughout the land, over population, (possible) global warming, other religions, racism e.t.c. Are all major problemo's but the only thing a 'Christian' can reply is "it is Gods will" or "if there was no suffering we wouldn't have free will." Which is just complete.... Well, you know!
I just finished typing a long argument to someone who said "I don't feel like replying to your typical atheist logic and subtle insults".
Well, if I hadn't been told I would burn and suffer forever for not believing exactly what they do, perhaps I would be more kind.
I ask why I will burn and suffer forever for not believing what they do and they say GOD WILLS IT. Or the more insane "God doesn't send people to hell, people send themselves to hell!" As if that proved a god.
The problem is that god is unprovable. OR IS HE?
No, a god is NOT unprovable. I have already said a dramatic and godly extraordinary miracle that all could see would convince me. God appearing before me and others would convince me.
To simply twist data and real life events and evidence around to suit your religion won't convince me. I already know the evidence and see how it fits in to support evolution and the big bang, MUCH better than ....creationism. Which at this point appears almost to be a mental illness, doesn't it?
"Believe me or you'll burn forever" Believe what? "MY GOD AND NONE OF THE OTHERS."
where is it that morals come from? why is it that they differ through out the world and among societies? A book of beliefs is exactly where morals came from. Religion is what set basic concept of morals. where did you think the concept of "freedom by virtue of being human" came from? or " we should above, above all else, love on another"? If a god or some sort of higher power did not exist who is really to say what is moral and immoral? if we are all equals who is a peer to say something is wrong? why are they're beliefs or convictions superior? "if there was no suffering we wouldn't have free will." actually has truth to it. It is impossible to expect people to always to make the right, decent, or even comprehensible choices all the time in every situation they are given. Suffering ,excluding the suffering brought by natural causes like disease which is by no means the majority of suffering that occurs, is brought about by humans and choices. People are never forced to commit wrong.(or whatever is perceived as wrong depending on what the ethical arena is). fathers chose to abandon their children, dictators chose to keep the wealth out the hands of the people, people chose to deny rights to other people. if people were forced to do the "right" thing all the time, or forced act in accordance to certain morals or ideas, the fact that they are "forced" to do it would eliminate their free will.
Based on philosophic and scientific argument over the past few hundred years, I think religion has been completely shown up as false, as man-made (and male-made specifically), and as revolting (think vicarious redemption).
Intellectually, It is clear that the battle has been won by the non-believers, and it has been that way for a long time.
However, politically, the secular movement is a dwindling minority which I fear will be defeated by the forces of theocracy, therefore this is where the war has yet to be won. Just look at the Middle East, those of you who wish to see a world run by religion. Look at how hard it is becoming, even in secular America, to critisise religion, and Islam specifically. Look at how a cartoonist in a tiny secular country in Northern Europe can be sentenced to death by mullahs thousands of miles away.
The battle is far from over, and as much as we would like to give up, it is our duty to stand up to religious bullying and intimidation, and resist it while we still can, and before our right to complain is taken away by the religious.
Alfred Wegener in 1915 was the man who first proposed "continental drift" as an explanation for why the continents appeared to fit together so 'perfectly'. The reason why his idea was so controversial was because he didn't have an explanation for why they drifted, all he had was observational evidence. Wegener's theory of "continental drift" was ultimately disproven. It wasn't until the 1960s that geologists had enough evidence to come up with the idea of plate tectonics that explained it happened, what evidence it had, and so on.
Now that you've finished plate tectonics 101, we can move on. Plate tectonics were not believed to "not exist", there was no concept of them. When Wegener proposed his theory, all he had was observational evidence. He had no explanation for how it happened. This is why his theory was rejected.
Nothing can be 100% proven to not exist. But, things can be shown to be hideously unlikely to have happened or existed. In this case, some of the ludicrous claims that the bible makes are hideously unlikely to be true, including god's existence. Talking snakes, virgin birth, Moses separating the Red Sea, Jesus being resurrected, etc.
If you are fine with scientists saying that nothing can be proven to not exist, but that things can be shown to be extremely unlikely to exist or be true, then why are you comfortable believing in something that is insanely unlikely to be true?
To have faith in religion/the bible/god is to have faith in absurdity at this point.
The largest bit you left out is how violent and detrimental religion is to society. If these absurd beliefs were very good and helped humanity and united all people, I would support them, but they do not do this. They divide people and cast some people as "hell goers", to be converted or looked down on.
An absurd belief is not always bad, but a harmful absurd belief is something to be avoided.
I agree with what you said. He didn't say anything about whether religion was good or bad or anything like that though. He was justifying his belief because of faith alone, simply because scientists say nothing can be 100% proven to not exist. I wanted to point out to him that that was a flawed thought process.
I think that religion has become corrupt and strayed from what the intend was to be. Example: Christianity formed and people tried to be Christ like. Obviously, in many cases they have become exactly the opposite. Other religions profess to be peaceful, but continue to kill in the name of their god. BTW, God is not a religion.
Christ like? I'm sure that before Christianity, good people still existed. There must have still been law and morals and an idea of "good" and "bad" among people and society. I think Christianity's "Be good and receive a reward, be bad and receive a punishment" are much more compelling to a primitive, ancient society than simply wanting to be like a man who called himself a god.
I disagree - I think that, on the whole, religion is good for society. Mainly because, in the Bible and other holy books, it says things like 'love your neighbour as yourself' and 'turn the other cheek' etc etc, and the whole overall message is 'be good and God will reward you'.
Therefore, even if it is 'an absurd belief' it is not 'a harmful absurd belief' that is just the way some idiots seem to interpret it.
Oh and... um... sorry about the misquote up on my previous argument (now edited out)... I said that scientists said that you can't disprove, only prove. The actual quote was 'can't prove, only disprove'. I'm sorry for misquoting...
Although, some scientists are religious. They believe that religion is not controversial to scientific studies and can happily work alongside it. I, myself, agree.
Things like the Big Bang and the Creation story also do not clash as quite a few Christians believe that the Creation story is not a statement of fact - rather a story with meaning to look into and analyse.
Things like miracles are also stated, in the Bible, to be miracles. And the definition of miracle is:
'1.A surprising and welcome event that is not explicable by natural or scientific laws and is considered to be divine.
2.A highly improbable or extraordinary event, development, or accomplishment.'
We have proved that the earth was made over thousands of years NOT over 7 days. We are closer than ever to finding the missing link and science has proof that their theory is somewhat proven. All religion does is say "explain how the Earth was made then if there isn't a god" then the atheist or godless person says that "the Big Bang made everything and evolution made us and over millions of years the earth formed" then the religious person will say that god did that and will walk away.
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