CreateDebate


Debate Info

Debate Score:18
Arguments:12
Total Votes:18
More Stats

Argument Ratio

side graph
 
 Maybe, just maybe, the universe always was. (12)

Debate Creator

atypican(4875) pic



Maybe, just maybe, the universe always was.

Why do creationists and admiring gawkers outside the scientific community presume the universe had a beginning when for all we know it has just always been? I mean even if big bang theorists are largely correct, as far as I am aware there could be countless big bangs occuring every second in regions we are not yet aware of.

Add New Argument
4 points

It is a theory that religion(which determines your life whether you beleive or not)accepts.funny how religion and science agree on something.It's funny how religion pick's and chooses what it likes from science.

1 point

The only thing we know is that the Big Bang was the start to our universe as we know it. Anything outside of that is pure speculation.

1 point

You don't hear so much talk these days about the oscillating universe, but at least as a theory it allows for big bangs to be discussed as recurring cyclical events instead of being "the start" or "the beginning".

Stryker(849) Disputed
1 point

The oscillating universe theory has fallen out of favor, from my understanding it presents two unknowns rather than one. What causes expansion, what causes collapse. As we have no reason to believe the universe will collapse it is unnecessary to add that.

1 point

I've put this theory forth in a number of religious debates when it inevitably degenerates into, "You don't know, we had to come from somewhere so there has to be a god."

I have believed eternity is the natural "state of being" for a long time now, and believe I can put forth sort of a Socratic cerebral proof:

Characters:

Antagonist

Protagonist

moderator

Have you ever seen anything truly "begin"?

Yes, a child is born, that is the beginning.

But you accept the child came from somewhere?

Yes, it came from the joining of a sperm and an egg.

So the birth was not the beginning. But there was a beginning and that is to say, it began with a sperm and an egg. But from where did the sperm and the egg begin.

Well they began from a male and female who made them.

And how were they made? What was their beginning?

... and so on.

Okay so the beginning was when life began. Where did this life come from?

Well, it was made from things that were here, splitting and combining various non-living cells until something life-like was formed, and becoming more complex until you have what we consider life

Very well, so it started then with non-living "stuff" and that was the beginning, but from where did that "stuff" come from?

From there you can go to the formation of the earth, solar system, universe, and each is made from something which existed. You may even insert god if you wish and the equation is the same, simply with another factor (I argue an unnecessary and false factor).

This will lead to "We don't know but I believe..." which is fine, it should lead here.

So we agree that we do not know, but of everything we have knowledge of, we see that everything observed in fact did not begin. Putting aside whether there was a beginning we can agree at least that if there were a beginning it is unknown. Do you believe that if something is created it can be destroyed?

Logically yes. If something is created it by definition also must have the capacity to go back to its original state, that being non-existence.

So if it has a beginning it must have an end. Have you ever observed anything end?

Yes, things die all the time, that is an end

I see, so their bones, skin, etc no longer exists?

Well no, but it is no longer what it was, it is cremated or it biodegrades

So it's still there just something else. Does that ash, soil, etc. end? Does it cease to exist?

No, the "stuff" is still there, but it is not longer us, we've ended.

Ended, but not ceased to have existed as all of the stuff which made us is still there in one form or another correct?

As with questions about the beginning, this leads anyone, even if god is inserted, to conclude that yes, they have never observed an ending to anything.

The question becomes, if you've never observed a beginning, can give no example of it, yet still insist something must have begun somewhere, why then can you not also point to an ending?

There is no observable, theorized, even conceivable beginning -- literally the human mind is incapable of imagining actual "nothingness" (darkness perhaps, but not nothingness) -- this by itself may be attributed to some quirk of our nature or a lack of understanding of the Universe, that's fair enough, but when coupled with the fact that we also cannot observe, theorize, or really even conceive a state of actual complete ending, it becomes more than a coincidence I think.

If things began we'd observe them end. We cannot. Therefore I believe beginning and ending is a trick of a consciousness that becomes self-aware and understands it will cease at some point to be aware, and so projects that feature of itself onto all things, when the reality is that all the things, the stuff, which makes us conscious for a time, has always existed and will always exist, just like everything, whether we are conscious to observe it or not.

I just can't believe that there was this random explosion and everything was just slapped perfectly together. It would have had to been intended. Maybe there was a dimensional rift and the "big bang" spewed from it, but then you'd have to believe that there are other dimensions outside of this reality. Maybe The universe is 5-dimensional and space is 4-dimensional and when the rift tore open up within the 4th dimension, it spewed the many 3-dimensional objects creating life as we know it.

1 point

Why can't time have started at the Big Bang? There doesn't have to be a before the universe began. That is the start.

2 points

It is kind of ridiculous that Christian's argue that Earth and life on it were obviously created by intelligent design, yet God always existed. I feel like they just got kind of lazy when coming up with God's background.

1 point

Im not saying that isn't a possibility, I am just saying that hearing people speak confidently that this is the case is irritating.

Cartman(18192) Disputed
1 point

But, I never hear it that way. It is always, what happened right before the Big Bang? Then they go on to say that God always was.