#1 |
#2 |
#3 |
Paste this URL into an email or IM: |
Click here to send this debate via your default email application.
|
Click here to login and CreateDebate will send an email for you.
|
Modern music is contributing to the downfall of society.
I was flipping through channels on my TV and I saw the Teen Choice Music Awards 2010. It was just sad.
I was watching it and I was disgusted by what I heard. Not once did I hear anything by Beethoven or Bach or Duke Elligton or Benny Goodman or Mozart etc. No tributes to real musicians or real music. Nothing. What I heard was noise.
These so called musicians have no talent. They can't sing an opera or play a concerto. The only reason people like them is because they have a pretty face and tons of cash.
Yes
Side Score: 65
|
 |
No
Side Score: 68
|
|
2
points
Rap Music is loud, stupid, and just plain bad music. The reason? Computer-generated drumbeats. Without a human heart to guide the rhythm of everything else, the music is nothing but a machine, a tool of the Devil, and is doomed to extinction and non-recognition in the fullness of time. Side: yes
2
points
I agree with you to a certain extent. I mean yes,music is definitely contributing to the downfall of society. However,I won't go as far as to say that we need to return to the days of Beethoven. I think that music needs more truly talented people. Not people who go through desperate measures just to get 1 million album sales. The 90's had the most talented artist in history. Michael Jackson and Kurt Cobain are only two of the fantastic artist of the 90's. The main thing our industry needs today is some truly talented artist that have morals. Side: yes
0
points
1
point
Of course! Rappers are constantly in jail, mostly because of drug possession and crime. Rappers generally have explicit lyrics, encouraging listeners to do the same. I assume, however, that when you mention 'Modern music', you are referring to rap. If not, please notify me and I will change my argument as required. Side: yes
I agree in the sense that when you turned on the Teen Choice Awards, you saw godawful music played by godawful musicians. And yes, the popular music of an era almost always has some effect on the mass culture to an extent, in our case probably a negative one. (One of the songs that my pop loving friends always blast is "Pretty Boy Swag." If you've never heard it, you're lucky.) However, there are still many great musicians in the world to enjoy if you look beyond the Billboard 100 and FM radio. With bands like Radiohead, The Strokes, Yeah Yeah Yeahs, Arctic Monkeys, etc etc rock music is as good as it's ever been. Young jazz and soul musicians today are extremely talented also. There's actually some decent hip-hop if you look up underground artists. Plus, in Beethoven's time they were taking humans off their continent en masse against their will and forcing them into lives of servitude. Society's always been a little effed up ;) Side: yes
Many modern songs support rankism (the idea that not all men are equal to each other). These songs make people screwed up for no good reason. In the songs - they spell out horrifying doom sentences to completely innocent victims. They victimize innocent people for no apparent reason. Sure we know we have to distinguish fantasy from reality, but we subconsciously relate to songs as if they were real. I will not give the example song - for I will make it more popular if I do. Side: yes
As you can see through various forms of media, such as newspapers or television, even all over the Internet, music has become an integral part of most cultures. It assists many people in understanding other people, the world around them, or simply themselves. However, things have changed since the good old days of the 1700's - 1980's. Music has become a back-alley for people with no real talent to convey messages of violence, bloodshed, sexual intercourse (hardly befitting of such an art) or simply as a means to gain monetary worth. Of course, the latter reason is a part of all musicians, or at least what passes for one these days. However, there is also the lack of caring in work from people such as Eminem or Justin Bieber, who purposefully flaunt their appearance as a means of persuading pre-teen youngsters into believing that their music is valuable. Gone are the days of Mozart, Beethoven, Bach or Chopin, just to name a few. We now have a society filled with violence, addiction, childish behaviour and a heavy promotion on a lack of respect. There is no music that exists today that allows us to calmly think through our lives, or allows us to understand the troubles of society. Proof of society's lack of music tastes and also of their lack of understanding of what music should be about is in the following link: Side: Yes
|
2
points
4
points
I imagine Comptine d’un autre été après-midi was quite scandalous when first it was played publicly. There is a common misconception that any evolution in society is for the worse. This confuses me, as those adults who now condemn such deviancies are themselves products of the Disco generation. Their parents before them were raised on Rock and Roll, their parents on Jazz and so on and so on ad infinitum. Another point is that Music is a product of societal evolution, not the cause of it. Side: No
3
points
Comptine d’un autre été après-midi Not familiar with it. There is a common misconception that any evolution in society is for the worse. No, not any; however, most is detrimental. This confuses me, as those adults who now condemn such deviancies are themselves products of the Disco generation. Disco was, whilst I still rather dislike it, far superior to that rap crap. Their parents before them were raised on Rock and Roll Is Rock 'n' Roll not still alive? their parents on Jazz Great music; however, my predilections have always been centred on the pop music of the 1910s, 1920s, 1930s, 1940s, and 1950s. and so on and so on ad infinitum. Not entirely true. From about 1800-1900 the music was nearly all in a similar style. Again, there was similar style from about 1650-1800. Nearly all music before then is now lost; however, the evolution was not quite so drastic as has it been in the past half-century. Side: yes
3
points
4
points
In my own opinion, the good rappers of the past couple years are some of the best lyricists in all of music. Big booty bitches , Big big booty bitches, OOH! Big booty bitches, Big big booty bitches OOH! Big booty bitches, Big big booty bitches OOH! Side: yes
2
points
You know you're right. This one rap video that some guy made in his basement is representative of not only the whole genre but also the good quality rappers to which I was referring. Thank you for creating such a well thought out response, and not just repeating the media stereotype of hip-hop-rap music as a completely mindless and womanizing genre. /sarcasm One might as well use Hitler as an example of why all Germans are evil. If you wanted to be fair about this you could have at least asked what artists I was talking about, but since I'm not a dick I'll at least give you the benefit of the doubt by actually giving some examples: Get By - by Talib Kweli I Used to Love HER - Common Soundtrack to my Life - Kid CuDi and to prove that not all rappers fall into the media stereotype you hear on the radio (and because Lupe is such a great artist): Dumb it Down - Lupe Fiasco
Side: No
2
points
You know your right. This one rap video that some guy made in his basement is representative of not only the whole genre but also the good quality rappers to which I was referring. The lowest form of wit, andsoccer16, the lowest form of wit. Thank you for creating such a well thought out response, and not just repeating the media stereotype of hip-hop-rap music as a completely mindless and womanizing genre. /sarcasm It was nothing. /Irony. One might as well use Hitler as an example of why all Germans are evil. Why? Hitler was Austrian. If you wanted to be fair about this you could have at least asked what artists I was talking about You see, the problem is that I don't care for your opinions on the subject. but since I'm not a dick Debatable. and to prove that not all rappers fall into the media stereotype you hear on the radio (and because Lupe is such a great artist): Good Lord, that was awful. It's just some guy talking to a drumbeat and two other guys looking faintly bemused at the whole affair - one was in the video, the other was me. Side: yes
2
points
Awww...are you still sore that I pointed out your ignorance on climate change? Poor baby. Why? Hitler was Austrian. I know, and what you posted wasn't really rap. You see, the problem is that I don't care for your opinions on the subject. No, the problem is that you refuse to listen to any opinions that may differ from your own. I give you four examples of very good artists as opposed to some random guy in his basement, and the most you can do is claim it's just some guy talking over a drumbeat. If you actually understood rap, and its African origins then you would understand that the genre was initially used as a means of telling stories. It's current incarnation (the one we now think of when we hear rap) is a blend of this style and the blues/jazz that came about in the American south over the past 100 years or so. But lets say you don't like the style...that doesn't mean that you shouldn't be able to appreciate the lyrics, which, if you remember was my main point about rap and my main reason for listening to the genre. If you could move past your prejudices, you would realize how lyrically talented the artists I posted really are...instead, you chose to take the low road. The enjoyment of music is a subjective experience, to be sure, so there is no way to argue someone into liking a genre, artist or particular song. What I can do though is point out that the less subjective part of this music, the words themselves (the most important part of a rap song) are as good as any (and better than the majority of) artists in the history of modern music. Debatable You see the difference between you and me is that if our positions were reversed I would at least give whatever genre you wanted to present to me a chance before writing off the whole thing. You on the other hand choose (once again) to be a closed minded snob, who wishes only to bask in his own closed off world hearing his own opinions repeated to him, protected from reality lest it disturb his fragile worldview. Grow up. Side: No
2
points
Awww...are you still sore that I pointed out your ignorance on climate change? Shouldn't you be off trying to save a polar bear as opposed to "wasting the world's energy reserves" debating with somebody you obviously hold in contempt? I know, and what you posted wasn't really rap. More Hip-Hop, yes, but you clearly lack a sense of humour, so I shall forgive you for becoming irate. No, the problem is that you refuse to listen to any opinions that may differ from your own. That is why I do not object to being called a bigot. I give you four examples of very good artists as opposed to some random guy in his basement Good artists in your opinion. They do not count as evidence, as their artistic worth is debatable. and the most you can do is claim it's just some guy talking over a drumbeat. Which it was. If you actually understood rap, and its African origins then you would understand that the genre was initially used as a means of telling stories. You should no that I despair of anything African. It's current incarnation (the one we now think of when we hear rap) is a blend of this style and the blues/jazz that came about in the American south over the past 100 years or so. Irrelevant information. But lets say you don't like the style... Yes, let's. that doesn't mean that you shouldn't be able to appreciate the lyrics, which, if you remember was my main point about rap and my main reason for listening to the genre. I only appreciate lyrics if I consider them to be good. You seem to be under the illusion that negative opinions are not suitable responses, whereas positive opinions (your own) are. If you could move past your prejudices, [Laughs.] you would realize how lyrically talented the artists I posted really are...instead, you chose to take the low road. [Continues laughing.] The enjoyment of music is a subjective experience, to be sure, so there is no way to argue someone into liking a genre, artist or particular song. Then why is the basis of your argument a subjective opinion of the lyrics? What I can do though is point out that the less subjective part of this music, the words themselves (the most important part of a rap song) are as good as any (and better than the majority of) artists in the history of modern music. That, too, is your own opinion, and not evidential in any way. You see the difference between you and me is that if our positions were reversed I would at least give whatever genre you wanted to present to me a chance Why do you assume that this debate is the first instance in which I have heard or discussed rap music? before writing off the whole thing. Again, It was written off some time ago. You on the other hand choose (once again) to be a closed minded snob And you accuse me of refusing to acknowledge other opinions? who wishes only to bask in his own closed off world hearing his own opinions repeated to him, protected from reality lest it disturb his fragile worldview. You, sir, know very little about me. Do presume to know my character in its entirety. Grow up. If growing up consists of becoming in any way like you, then I shall refrain from doing so. Side: yes
1
point
Shouldn't you be off trying to save a polar bear as opposed to "wasting the world's energy reserves" debating with somebody you obviously hold in contempt? Actually Thursdays are my save the dolphins vegan cupcake sale. Polar bears are every other tuesday. Good artists in your opinion. They do not count as evidence, as their artistic worth is debatable. So lets debate it. I wouldn't have presented my thoughts if I wasn't willing to defend them (unlike some people on this site). only appreciate lyrics if I consider them to be good. You seem to be under the illusion that negative opinions are not suitable responses, whereas positive opinions (your own) are. No, but you provided no contradictory arguments as to why these lyrics weren't good. My assumption was that if you had some you would have given them...was I mistaken? Then why is the basis of your argument a subjective opinion of the lyrics? If the value of lyrics was completely subjective then there would be no way to judge the value of poetry, or even other works of art that rely on words such as novels. All criticism of these works (both positive and negative) could just be countered by saying: "that's just an opinion." And besides, if this were the case, then I would have equal ground on which to argue that a song is good that you do that a song is bad. Obviously though we know that lyrics aren't wholly subjective. No one (who wasn't dropped as a child) would argue that Nickelback are better artists than The Beatles. Now there are songs that I don't necessarily like to listen to because I don't particularly enjoy the genre, but I will still admit it when a song is well written. I don't particularly like classical music for example, but there is no denying that Beethoven was a genius. There are obviously cultural differences that can contribute to our appreciation of music, but since we both speak English and both live in western modern democracies (you are from the U.K. right?) then our cultural differences shouldn't be too great. Nor does my opinion of you matter in a debate. We aren't arguing about each other we are arguing about music, so lets stick to the topic at hand, k? Good. Now, Lupe Fiasco has better songs than "Dumb it Down" but I chose it because it's one of my personal favorites, and (more importantly) it deals with what you were arguing: the numerous influences that try and dumb down hip-hop/rap music. I would agree with the statement that most hip-hop/rap you hear on the radio is pretty mindless, and sometimes even comes close to the link you posted. Lupe's song is one in which he addresses this issue through the three variations of the chorus. This part in itself is good, but where Lupe really showcases his talents is in the verses. To save you the trouble of having to look it up here is the first verse: I'm fearless Now hear this I'm earless And I'm peer-less That means I'm eyeless Which means I'm tearless Which means my iris resides where my ears is Which means I'm blinded But I'mma find it I can feel it's nearness But I'mma veer so I don't come near Like a chicken or a deer But I remember I'm not a listener or a seer so my windshield smear Here, you steer, I really shouldn't be behind this, clearly cause my blindness The windshield is minstrel, the whole grill is roadkill, so trill and so sincere. Yeah, I'm both them there Took both pills, when a bloke in a trench coat and the locs in the chair had approached him here And he clear as a ghost, so a biter of the throats in the mirror The writer of the quotes for the ghosts who supplier of the notes to the living Riveting is rosy, pockets full of posies, given to the mother of the deceased. Awaken at war, 'til I'm restin' in peace Like a good movie, the complexity of the rhymes are such that I needed to listen to the song a number of times to fully understand it. Now, if you disagree that these aren't great lyrics then please actually give reasons this time, and maybe provide a song that you think does exemplify what you consider to be "good lyrics." But once again the option is there for you to just admit you down know what your talking about, and end the argument right now. I'm sure no one will hold it against you :) Side: No
2
points
Actually Thursdays are my save the dolphins vegan cupcake sale. Polar bears are every other tuesday. Well good luck on both accounts. So lets debate it. I wouldn't have presented my thoughts if I wasn't willing to defend them. As you wish, but bear in mind that I'm a "childish snob", so don't be surprised if you disagree with me. No, but you provided no contradictory arguments as to why these lyrics weren't good. My assumption was that if you had some you would have given them...was I mistaken? See below. If the value of lyrics was completely subjective then there would be no way to judge the value of poetry, There is no definitive way to value poetry. This: "HE is gone on the mountain, He is lost to the forest, Like a summer-dried fountain, When our need was the sorest. The font reappearing From the raindrops shall borrow; But to us comes no cheering, To Duncan no morrow!
The hand of the reaper Takes the ears that are hoary, But the voice of the weeper Wails manhood in glory. The autumn winds rushing Waft the leaves that are searest, But our flower was in flushing When blighting was nearest.
Fleet foot on the correi, Sage counsel in cumber, Red hand in the foray, How sound is thy slumber! Like the dew on the mountain, Like the foam on the river, Like the bubble on the fountain, Thou art gone—and for ever" is generally regarded to be a good poem. Does that mean that you will like it by default? Or that it is better in the opinion of everybody than most other poems? Obviously though we know that lyrics aren't wholly subjective. No one (who wasn't dropped as a child) would argue that Nickelback are better artists than The Beatles. How do you know that? Now there are songs that I don't necessarily like to listen to because I don't particularly enjoy the genre, but I will still admit it when a song is well written. As will I, but here I feel no compulsion to do so. I don't particularly like classical music for example, but there is no denying that Beethoven was a genius. See above. There are obviously cultural differences that can contribute to our appreciation of music, but since we both speak English and both live in western modern democracies then our cultural differences shouldn't be too great. That is a strange conclusion to make. There is an incredible amount of cultural difference between western democracies. (you are from the U.K. right?) Yes. Nor does my opinion of you matter in a debate. Then I see no reason (beyond spite) for you to provide it. Now, Lupe Fiasco has better songs than "Dumb it Down" but I chose it because it's one of my personal favorites, and (more importantly) it deals with what you were arguing: the numerous influences that try and dumb down hip-hop/rap music. I would agree with the statement that most hip-hop/rap you hear on the radio is pretty mindless, and sometimes even comes close to the link you posted. Lupe's song is one in which he addresses this issue through the three variations of the chorus. This part in itself is good, but where Lupe really showcases his talents is in the verses. To save you the trouble of having to look it up here is the first verse: I shall enjoy this. First, I shall attempt to discern the meaning of the lyrics, in the context that you have provided: I'm fearless He makes the following statements in the knowledge that it may provoke some outrage; he does not care. Now hear this A call to attention. I'm earless A) He will not listen to dissent. or B) He has no desire to listen to what he regards as inferior music. And I'm peer-less A) He is unmatched in his musical talent or B) He is the only person who will speak out against bad rap. That means I'm eyeless Which means I'm tearless Which means my iris resides where my ears is He lends more importance to music than he does to other mediums of expression; he is unapologetic for this. Which means I'm blinded There is a cacophony of said bad music. But I'mma find it I can feel it's nearness But I'mma veer so I don't come near He works hard to avoid making bad rap. Like a chicken or a deer Beyond my powers of discernment. But I remember I'm not a listener or a seer so my windshield smear Here, you steer, I really shouldn't be behind this, clearly cause my blindness (Ironic) He is not the listener, he is a producer of rival music and thus his view is biased, Why don't the critics attempt to do better if they can. The windshield is minstrel, the whole grill is roadkill, so trill and so sincere. Yeah, I'm both them there He is occasionally guilty of producing bad music, but he also creates good music. Took both pills, when a bloke in a trench coat and the locs in the chair had approached him here And he clear as a ghost, so a biter of the throats in the mirror The writer of the quotes for the ghosts who supplier of the notes to the living Riveting is rosy, pockets full of posies, given to the mother of the deceased. Awaken at war, 'til I'm restin' in peace Without further contextual clarity, I will be unable to discern the meaning of this. Now, the following is an extract from the U2 song "New York". It contains what I consider to be good lyrics: In New York freedom looks like too many choices In New York I found a friend to drown out the other voices Voices on the cell phone Voices from home Voices of the hard sell Voices down the stairwell In New York, just got a place in New York In New York summers get hot, well into the hundreds You can't walk around the block without a change of clothing Hot as a hairdryer in your face Hot as a handbag and a can of mace In New York, I just got a place in New York New York, New York ------------------------- The Irish have been coming here for years Feel like they own the place They got the airport, city hall, asphalt, dance floor, they even got the police Irish, Italians, Jews and Hispanics Religious nuts, political fanatics in the stew, Living happily not like me and you That's where I lost you... New York ------------------------- In New York I lost it all to you and your vices Still I'm staying on to figure out my mid life crisis I hit an iceberg in my life You know I'm still afloat You lose your balance, lose your wife In the queue for the lifeboat You got to put the women and children first But you've got an unquenchable thirst for New York The extract from "Dumb it Down" contains a host of immodesties (Which plague rap), some superficial contradictions, some rhyming (which never goes astray), and some colloquialisms, as well as an ill conceived metaphor or two. "New York" is based upon an extended metaphor, contains nice rhythm and rhyme, jokes and political commentary. Furthermore, its lyrics have a wide variety of interpretation. For example: "Hot as a handbag and a can of mace " Could mean a beautiful woman who sprays potential suitors with mace, the appeal of handbags and mace to women today, the fashion of carrying a can of mace etc etc. While you have not provided me with the lyrics in their entirety, I have two separate conclusions: A) The appreciation of lyrics is subjective, rendering the debate moot. or B) One or the other is vastly superior to the other. In which case I nominate New York. Where do you stand? Side: yes
1
point
There is no definitive way to value poetry... That was my point. Thank you for reiterating it. How do you know that? Because I didn't get dropped as a child. Also I have ears. That is a strange conclusion to make. There is an incredible amount of cultural difference between western democracies. Eh, I guess it's relative, but my point was that we aren't arguing about peruvian hip-hop or Tuvan throat-singing so I think that we both understand the relevant cultures enough to meaningfully comment about them. I shall enjoy this. First, I shall attempt to discern the meaning of the lyrics, in the context that you have provided: Good, I'll enjoy it too. I love music so it should be fun. Sorry I didn't go through the whole song and analyze it but last time I tried putting a lot of effort into a debate with you, you ended up just giving a trite response. Now that I know you plan on putting thought into this discussion (thank you for doing so by the way) I will be happy to discuss the song, which I think can be judged as better than the U2 song you provided on a level that is more than subjective. First, the full lyrics: [Verse 1:] I'm fearless Now hear this I'm earless And I'm peer-less That means I'm eyeless Which means I'm tearless Which means my iris resides where my ears is Which means I'm blinded But I'mma find it I can feel it's nearness But I'mma veer so I don't come near Like a chicken or a deer But I remember I'm not a listener or a seer so my windshield smear Here, you steer, I really shouldn't be behind this, clearly cause my blindness The windshield is minstrel, the whole grill is roadkill, so trill and so sincere. Yeah, I'm both them there Took both pills, when a bloke in a trench coat and the locs in the chair had approached him here And he clear as a ghost, so a biter of the throats in the mirror The writer of the quotes for the ghosts who supplier of the notes to the living Riveting is rosy, pockets full of posies, given to the mother of the deceased. Awaken at war, 'til I'm restin' in peace [Chorus 1:] You goin' over niggas' heads Lu (Dumb it down) They tellin' me that they don't feel you (Dumb it down) We ain't graduate from school nigga (Dumb it down) Them big words ain't cool nigga (Dumb it down) Yeah I heard Mean And Vicious nigga (Dumb it down) Make a song for the bitches nigga (Dumb it down) We don't care about the weather nigga (Dumb it down) You'll sell more records if you (Dumb it down) [Verse 2:] And I'm mouthless Which means I'm soundless Now as far as the hearing, I've found it It was as far as the distance from an earring to the ground is But the doorknockers on the ear of a stewardess in a Lear She fine and she flyin, I feel I'm flying by'em 'cause my mind's on cloud nine and in her mind at the same time Pimp C the wings on the underground king Who's also Klingon To infinity and beyond Something really stinks, but I Spinks like Leon Or lying in the desert I'm flying on Pegasus you're flying on the pheasant Rider of the white powder, picker of the fire flowers, spit hot fire like Dylon on Chappelle's skit Yeah, smell it on my unicorn, don't snort the white horse, but toot my own horn (sleep) [Chorus 2:] You've been shedding too much light Lu (Dumb it down) You make'em wanna do right Lu (Dumb it down) They're getting self-esteem Lu (Dumb it down) These girls are trying to be queens Lu (Dumb it down) They're trying to graduate from school Lu (Dumb it down) They're starting to think that smart is cool Lu (Dumb it down) They're trying to get up out the hood Lu (Dumb it down) I'll tell you what you should do (Dumb it down) [Verse 3:] And I'm brainless Which means I'm headless Like Ichabod Crane is Or foreplay-less sex is Which makes me stainless With no neck left to hang the chain with Which makes me necklace-less Like a necklace theft And I ain't used my headrest yet They said they need proof like a vestless chest 'bout the best, fair F-F-jet in the nest Who exudes confidence and excess depth Even Scuba Steve would find it hard to breathe Around these leagues My snorkle is a tuba, Lu the ruler around these seas Westside Poseidon, Westside beside'em, chest high and rising Almost touching the knees of stewardess and the pilot Lucky they make you flowered Personal floating devices, tricks falling out of my sleeves David Blaine Make it rain You Make a boat I make a plane Then, I pull the plug and I make it drain Until I feel like flowing and filling it up again..(Westside) [Chorus 3:] You putting me to sleep nigga (Dumb it down) That's why you ain't popping in the streets nigga (Dumb it down) You ain't winning no awards nigga (Dumb it down) Robots and skateboards nigga? (Dumb it down) GQ Man Of The Year G? (Dumb it down) Shit ain't rocking over here B (Dumb it down) Won't you talk about your cars nigga? (Dumb it down) And what the fuck is goyard nigga (Dumb it down) Make it rain for the chicks (Dumb it down) Pour champagne on a bitch (Dumb it down) What the fuck is wrong with you? (Dumb it down) How can I get on a song with you? (Dumb it down) [Gemini: talking] Look B, here's my man, my two way, (hey) uh, what should I - ah here take this (hey) that right there, fuck what my boys talk about nigga, (hey) nigga you hot to me, I like you (Dumb it down) [Lupe:] Bishop G, they told me I should come down cousin, but I flatly refuse I ain't dumb down nothing Now the first verse (the one you analyzed) is him talking to the fans of hip-hop/rap that he considers ignorant. In the first line he claims he is fearless because the whole song is essentially taking on the established paradigm of rap's subject matter which often is unintelligent and degrading to women (a common theme in Lupe's songs is criticizing those rappers which degrade women). By saying that he is earless, peerless and eyeless he is saying that he can't hear or see the critics (which are represented in the chorus) and that because of this he is tearless...in other words these critics don't bother him. Obviously the peerless part is a double entendre which could mean that he either has no equal when it comes to rap, or that no other rappers are doing what he is doing by criticizing the ignorance of many hip-hop artists. Another interpretation of this verse is that he is talking about blinded fans looking instead of listening ("which means my iris resides where my ears is"). The bullshit that exists in many rap songs is blinding, but Lupe says I'mma veer so I don't come near. The 'chicken or a deer" part is simply a metaphor about how he avoids the BS prevelant in mainstream rap like people avoid animals in the road (although if you can think of an alternative meaning I'd love to hear it...knowing Lupe there might be one). The line about him not being "a listener or a seer" means that he can't see clearly (my windshield smear) because he is the artist and not the audience. He doesn't have the proper perspective to judge his own lyrics and therefore hands over the wheel to the audience though, but they don't avoid what he had to veer away from so "the whole grill is roadkill. Another interpretation of this verse is that he is thinking about giving up the wheel entirely by separating himself from the rap game entirely because it is a "minstrel" show. (If your not familiar with what this is, it was when white people dressed in blackface and acted like caricature of black people. What Lupe is saying is that those people raping the the songs are portraying blacks no better.) In his next line he makes a reference to the matrix by saying he took both pills. What this likely means is that he is living in two worlds at the same time: the BS one created by ignorant hip-hop artists, and the "real" one which is where he believes the truth to lie. He is both a part of the hip-hop/rap world and removed from it at the same time. "The writer of the quotes for the ghosts who supplier of the notes to the living" appears to be him saying that he is a ghostwriter for ghost writers. In the final line of this verse he talks about how he is "Riveting as Rosie" which is a reference to the WWII Rosie the Riveter poster. This is a reference both to how good his raps are, and how he is looking to empower women with his rhymes...something not often seen in hip-hop/rap songs. This reference also relates to the rest of the line which goes Awaken at war, 'til I'm restin' in peace which likely means that he will be fighting until he dies to change the hip-hop/rap game for the better. The first Chorus is relatively self explanatory. It represents the pressure put on rappers (and specifically on Lupe) to conform to the standard themes of hip-hop and "dumb down" his lyrics. The first Chorus is mostly concerned with the fact that many of his lyrics are heady, and that most of the uneducated people in the hood don't want to hear that kind of music. I'm going to stop here for the sake of brevity, and because I think I've made my point. The extract from "Dumb it Down" contains a host of immodesties Most of which you misinterpreted (not through any fault of your own, I only gave you a portion of the song and I know how hard it is to search "Dumb it Down" Lyrics on google). He was really saying that he is trying to avoid the BS that rap portrays and how he refuses to dumb down his lyrics for the sake of an ignorant audience. Now you could argue that he is being immodest by claiming that his raps are more intelligent than other rappers, but I doubt he'd find a lot of opposition to that point, especially if we are only looking at mainstream rap. some superficial contradictions Are you saying that these phrases are only contradictory on the surface (superficially)? If so then I'd say that this isn't a problem since the song is meant to be read on a deeper level. some rhyming Is this a criticism? and some colloquialisms The language he is using is the language he grew up using in Chicago, and the language that his audience is familiar with. This may be the only part where cultural differences may create an issue in listening. I'm used to listening to this kind of music so it doesn't bother me, but you may have to force yourself to look past it if your going to look at lyrics like these. If you are arguing that coloquilisms in a work of art is a negative, however, then I would ask you to read what many consider to be the single most important piece of American fiction: Huckleberry Fin. as well as an ill conceived metaphor or two There is quite a few more than one or two metaphors, and any that you interpreted to be ill conceived, likely come from a misunderstanding on your part and not a lack of talent on Lupe's, but if you insist that they are ill conceived then I would be happy to talk about any specific lines. Like I said before, Lupe's lyrics are extremely complex and I get new meanings out of them on almost every listen. Therefore i likely missed something when going through the song, and possibly misinterpreted a thing or two. Your U2 song on the other hand is relatively straightforward. While it uses one or two lines that are open to multiple interpretations and double meanings, "Dumb it Down" is filled with them. Now this can't be held against "New York" completely because double meanings of rhymes is a huge part of the genre and less so with U2's type of music. Even rap songs I consider to be inferior usually have a couple clever turns of phrase that have meanings deeper than what they first appear to be (one of the reasons I enjoy the genre). Also, pointing out there's a lot of diversity in New York is pretty weak political commentary. I guess their next song is going to be about how many Christians they see when they go to Church. How edgy. In short, while I'm sure that U2 wrote a very nice song about New York, it doesn't hold a candle to "Dumb it Down" lyrically. There is a simple reason for this: rap is almost all about the lyrics, and few do it better than Lupe. I find it funny though that you use your own lack of ability to understand the lyrics of "Dumb it Down" as a negative. I know when I read many famous works of poetry the meaning is not apparent immediately to me, but usually I don't just write the whole thing off as shitty. Otherwise I never would have come to like T.S. Eliot's "The Wasteland" (seriously, if you've never read it before, read through a part of it once and see if you can decipher the meaning). I don't blame you though for not understanding it. I had a serious advantage in that this is a genre I listen to often, and this particular song I've listened to about a hundred times. What you should realize though, is that while "New York" may make one allusion in the whole song (the one about the titanic) there are more allusions than I can count on both hands (and probably at least one foot). I can understand though if you want simpler songs. They require less thinking, and the meanings are not far below the surface. I wouldn't ask Lupe to do that though because I bet he'd respond with: "*I flatly refuse, I ain't dumb down nothing." Side: No
1
point
Because I didn't get dropped as a child. So you were born like this? Sorry I didn't go through the whole song and analyze it but last time I tried putting a lot of effort into a debate with you, you ended up just giving a trite response. I thought it was quite a novel way to argue. Now the first verse (the one you analyzed) is him talking to the fans of hip-hop/rap that he considers ignorant. In the first line he claims he is fearless because the whole song is essentially taking on the established paradigm of rap's subject matter which often is unintelligent and degrading to women (a common theme in Lupe's songs is criticizing those rappers which degrade women). By saying that he is earless, peerless and eyeless he is saying that he can't hear or see the critics (which are represented in the chorus) and that because of this he is tearless...in other words these critics don't bother him. Obviously the peerless part is a double entendre which could mean that he either has no equal when it comes to rap, or that no other rappers are doing what he is doing by criticizing the ignorance of many hip-hop artists. Another interpretation of this verse is that he is talking about blinded fans looking instead of listening ("which means my iris resides where my ears is"). The bullshit that exists in many rap songs is blinding, but Lupe says I'mma veer so I don't come near. The 'chicken or a deer" part is simply a metaphor about how he avoids the BS prevelant in mainstream rap like people avoid animals in the road (although if you can think of an alternative meaning I'd love to hear it...knowing Lupe there might be one). The line about him not being "a listener or a seer" means that he can't see clearly (my windshield smear) because he is the artist and not the audience. He doesn't have the proper perspective to judge his own lyrics and therefore hands over the wheel to the audience though, but they don't avoid what he had to veer away from so "the whole grill is roadkill. Another interpretation of this verse is that he is thinking about giving up the wheel entirely by separating himself from the rap game entirely because it is a "minstrel" show. (If your not familiar with what this is, it was when white people dressed in blackface and acted like caricature of black people. What Lupe is saying is that those people raping the the songs are portraying blacks no better.) In his next line he makes a reference to the matrix by saying he took both pills. What this likely means is that he is living in two worlds at the same time: the BS one created by ignorant hip-hop artists, and the "real" one which is where he believes the truth to lie. He is both a part of the hip-hop/rap world and removed from it at the same time. "The writer of the quotes for the ghosts who supplier of the notes to the living" appears to be him saying that he is a ghostwriter for ghost writers. In the final line of this verse he talks about how he is "Riveting as Rosie" which is a reference to the WWII Rosie the Riveter poster. This is a reference both to how good his raps are, and how he is looking to empower women with his rhymes...something not often seen in hip-hop/rap songs. This reference also relates to the rest of the line which goes Awaken at war, 'til I'm restin' in peace which likely means that he will be fighting until he dies to change the hip-hop/rap game for the better. The first Chorus is relatively self explanatory. It represents the pressure put on rappers (and specifically on Lupe) to conform to the standard themes of hip-hop and "dumb down" his lyrics. The first Chorus is mostly concerned with the fact that many of his lyrics are heady, and that most of the uneducated people in the hood don't want to hear that kind of music. I'm going to stop here for the sake of brevity, and because I think I've made my point. You have analysed the lyrics, and yet I am unmoved. I cannot see why they are to be regarded as better than those of New York. I shall go into better detail as to why I dislike them: A) The self-evident meaning behind the lyrics is shamelessly self-promoting, serving to promote the song itself as much as it does to demote the others. Furthermore, the song criticises the fans of other songs. I have always hated this. Because this Lupe fellow dislikes other rap , and feels that it getting more attention than good rap (i.e his rap), it strike me that the lyrics are more of an outpouring of spite and envy than they are a genuine critique. B) Poor grammar. Subjective as the experience is, I take issue with this. C) It is damning of other people's musical preferences. D) It is essentially much ado about nothing. It translates as That rap is shit, listen to my rap. No meaningful commentary at all (at least to me, commentary on rap is meaningless). E) I just don't like rap. If I wanted to entertain myself with words alone, I would read a book. Now, below I shall provide another set of lyrics which I consider to be good: Was a long and dark December From the rooftops I remember There was snow White snow Clearly I remember From the windows they were watching While we froze Down below When the future's architectured By a carnival of idiots on show You'd better lie low If you love me Won't you let me know? Was a long and dark December When the banks became cathedrals And the fog Became God Priests clutched onto bibles Hollowed out to fit their rifles And the cross was held aloft Bury me in armor When I'm dead and hit the ground A love back home unfolds If you love me Won't you let me know? I don't want to be a soldier Who the captain of some sinking ship Would stow, far below So if you love me Why'd you let me go? I took my love down to Violet Hill There we sat in snow All that time she was silent still So if you love me Won't you let me know? If you love me, Won't you let me know? If you could analyse that, I would be much much obliged (Violet Hill, Coldplay). Most of which you misinterpreted (not through any fault of your own, I only gave you a portion of the song and I know how hard it is to search "Dumb it Down" Lyrics on google). I implore you only to use irony if it's good irony. He was really saying that he is trying to avoid the BS that rap portrays and how he refuses to dumb down his lyrics for the sake of an ignorant audience. See issues A) and C). Now you could argue that he is being immodest by claiming that his raps are more intelligent than other rappers, but I doubt he'd find a lot of opposition to that point, especially if we are only looking at mainstream rap. Why is his rap better simply because he proclaims it to be? Are you saying that these phrases are only contradictory on the surface (superficially)? If so then I'd say that this isn't a problem since the song is meant to be read on a deeper level. It was not a critical point. Is this a criticism? It was a list of what devices I could see. The language he is using is the language he grew up using in Chicago, and the language that his audience is familiar with. This may be the only part where cultural differences may create an issue in listening. I'm used to listening to this kind of music so it doesn't bother me, but you may have to force yourself to look past it if your going to look at lyrics like these. If you are arguing that coloquilisms in a work of art is a negative, however, then I would ask you to read what many consider to be the single most important piece of American fiction. Again you presume too much (and To kill a mocking bird is better). And he clear as a ghost Irony can now be added to the list. if you insist that they are ill conceived then I would be happy to talk about any specific lines. The windshield is minstrel, the whole grill is roadkill, so trill and so sincere. when a bloke in a trench coat and the locs in the chair Your U2 song on the other hand is relatively straightforward. Hence the absence of an analysis on your part? Don't worry, I won't run away because your argument is a page-or-two long. While it uses one or two lines that are open to multiple interpretations and double meanings, "Dumb it Down" is filled with them. Now this can't be held against "New York" completely because double meanings of rhymes is a huge part of the genre and less so with U2's type of music. Even rap songs I consider to be inferior usually have a couple clever turns of phrase that have meanings deeper than what they first appear to be (one of the reasons I enjoy the genre). A self-mooting point. Novel to say the least. Also, pointing out there's a lot of diversity in New York is pretty weak political commentary. I guess their next song is going to be about how many Christians they see when they go to Church. How edgy. Seems like you completely missed the political commentary to me. In short, while I'm sure that U2 wrote a very nice song about New York, it doesn't hold a candle to "Dumb it Down" lyrically. I disagree. There is a simple reason for this: rap is almost all about the lyrics, and few do it better than Lupe. So at one point you believe most rap is lyrically deficient, and at others you believe it is superior to all other genres, exclusively because of its lyrics. I find it funny though that you use your own lack of ability to understand the lyrics of "Dumb it Down" as a negative. And I find it amusing that you are unaware of your own lack of ability, and wish to point out the irony of that statement. You misinterpreted New York, and now you accuse me of misinterpreting Dumb it Down. I know when I read many famous works of poetry the meaning is not apparent immediately to me, but usually I don't just write the whole thing off as shitty. Again, irony. Otherwise I never would have come to like T.S. Eliot's "The Wasteland" (seriously, if you've never read it before, read through a part of it once and see if you can decipher the meaning). Do you actually wish for me to do that? It is not a brief undertaking to decipher a poem, even a part of it. It can take hours to type, not to mention the point that poems have many meanings, and that it is virtually impossible to be wrong if you back up your assertions. To run through all the interpretations (even my own) is something I am simply unwilling to do. I don't blame you though for not understanding it. I had a serious advantage in that this is a genre I listen to often, and this particular song I've listened to about a hundred times. This seems masochistic to me. What you should realize though, is that while "New York" may make one allusion in the whole song (the one about the titanic) there are more allusions than I can count on both hands (and probably at least one foot). I counted seven in New York. I can understand though if you want simpler songs. They require less thinking, and the meanings are not far below the surface. I wouldn't ask Lupe to do that though because I bet he'd respond with: "I flatly refuse, I ain't dumb down nothing." Your illusions of intellectual superiority neither amuse nor intimidate me. In your contempt for me and my musical predilections, you reveal yourself to be of the same character of Lupe* himself. While dragging oneself out of a ghetto is commendable, I wish that he would leave the idiosyncrasies behind; they are clearly infecting you. Side: yes
1
point
I thought it was quite a novel way to argue. Argue? There was no argument, you just admitted to being a stubborn nutjob who believes in government conspiracies and refuses to listen to science. I can understand though if you're frustrated on being called out about your lack of knowledge on a subject. I would be too if I regarded my own intelligence as highly as you do yours. Must be a great shock when you go into reality and find you are mistaken. Also, are you seriously dumb enough to think that capitalism and environmentalism are incompatible? Not on topic, so feel free to ignore this...just was wondering since I never really understood your logic here. (A), (C), and (D) Disagree. Tens of millions of people listen to hip-hop/rap on a regular basis, and therefore the messages portrayed in these songs are some of the most influential in all of music (hip-hop/rap has influences that spread into many other nations around the world). Lupe's concern about the messages portrayed in rap go deeper than merely dissing other rappers. Like I've said a couple times before, he seriously bothered by the objectification of women in rap songs and thinks it is a serious issue. On this point I would have to agree. Girls growing up, listening to music that refers to them as nothing more than something to fuck is a real problem, and by standing up and pointing this fact out to an audience that may not want to hear it, Lupe is being (as he says) fearless. Now obviously you don't listen to rap so the issue isn't as important to you, but Lupe is talking to people who grew up listening almost entirely to rap. These are people who freestyle with their friends on weekends (harder than it sounds by the way, only a couple of my friends are decent at it) and many of whom see being discovered as a rap artist as the only way to get out of their situation. Materialism is another aspect of hip-hop that Lupe is arguing against, and once again I agree with his criticism. It's not news to anyone that most rap songs glorify lavish lifestyles, just turn on MTV cribs to see what I'm talking about. Gold chains, tricked out cars, even gold teeth...these are common subjects in rap songs. It doesn't take a genius to realize how unintelligent lyrics like these are. None of this really makes a difference though since you don't believe your own criticisms. Your own opinion of hip-hop/rap was that it was unintelligent before we started this debate. Scroll up and look, if you disagree...the proof is there. Lupe isn't allowed to criticize the fans of other artists, because that right is yours exclusively? Your logic is incomprehensible. How should he have responded if he sees a problem? "Um could you guys please stop making songs that degrade women? I would really appreciate that, thanks." Something tells me that this probably wouldn't get his message across to his listeners. Nor does your argument about the theme being important to you really undermine the song's message or lyrics. I care little about the issues of 19th century industrial workers in England, yet I can still recognize Hard Times by Charles Dickens as an extremely well written and important novel. You already know this since you don't live in New York (or maybe you have in the past, correct me if I'm wrong) and yet you recognize the lyrics of U2's song as being meaningful. As far as the self promoting part (A), even Shakespere bragged about himself in his sonnets. Your arguments about envy and spite are unfounded as well since the entire tone of the song is humorous. Once again, should he be politely asking the other rappers who write songs like Move Bitch to kindly stop degrading women? Face it, the only reason you have issue with this is because you went into this debate with certain notions about rap, and regardless of what evidence is shown to you, you will see what you want. Which brings us to (E). I told you that doesn't matter. We are trying to move beyond subjectivity a little. Were you to argue something like: "I don't like most rap because it is simplistically written and I disagree with the themes presented by many mainstream rappers" then you would have a legitimate argument. Actually that sounds familiar... Now, below I shall provide another set of lyrics which I consider to be good: What, you realize that New York wasn't a good example? I have no issue with U2 as a band (saw them last year in concert actually), and Bono's work with charities is inspiring. What confused me though is that I gave you the oppurtunity to choose any song in any genre, and you chose the one you did. I'm not trying to argue that "Dumb it Down" is the pinnacle of lyricism, but it is extremely well written. Does this mean that there are better songs out there? Almost certainly. Hell, I can think of some pretty quickly. All along the watchtower by Bob Dylan was written in the spirit of the Beat movement of the 60's and the lyrics can be classified more as a poem then the lyrics to a song (although the song itself is good too). My point with this being that finding another good song in and of itself doesn't show that Lupe's song is poorly written, unless it is somehow leaps and bounds better. Or to put it another way: no one could argue that Ted Kaczynski wasn't a bad man because Osama Bin Laden is worse. I did ask for an example of a song that does have good lyrics though, and if your point was valid then that song should not even be comparable lyrically to Lupe's song. It should be so much better that it makes Lupe's song look like it was written by a child, since you claim that the song (and all of rap) was terrible. I think I showed pretty conclusively that, at the very least Lupe's song is well written, and at best exceeds in quality the lyrics to "New York" by a large margin. You are unmoved however, so I will analyze the song of your choosing. Why is his rap better simply because he proclaims it to be? First, the whole thing is tongue-in-cheek. Second, he's not the only one since nearly every reviewer agrees. And even those who think his album The Cool was only good, and not great still point to "Dumb it Down" as a very intelligent and well written song. Even Jay-Z, one of the most respected rappers of all time, has called him a "genius rapper." The guy is having fun with this rap, and if you actually paid attention you would see this. He's confident yes, but not to the point of "spite and anger" as you proclaim. Now, maybe your not used to music like this, so I can understand if you didn't immediately pick up on the tone, but the chorus alone should have clued you into that. Again you presume too much (and To kill a mocking bird is better). I said that you may not be used to the language. Maybe you are and I'm mistaken, and if so great. The song will be easier to understand. With your petty complaints about grammar though, I'd say it's a good bet you aren't too familiar with it. Unrelated but I'll comment anyway: while To Kill a Mockingbird is a great novel, and certainly an American classic that deals well with race in the American south, Mark Twain's novel is historically more important because it is one of the first major literary critiques of the racism that existed in the south. Hemmingway said: "All modern American literature comes from" Huck Finn. I also enjoyed it because I am partial to satirical works, which is why Hard Times is my favorite 19th century British novel, and one of the reasons why I enjoy "Dumb it Down." The windshield is minstrel, the whole grill is roadkill, so trill and so sincere. when a bloke in a trench coat and the locs in the chair You skipped a part. I don't know if this was intentional or accidental but here is the full lyric: The windshield is minstrel, the whole grill is roadkill, so trill and so sincere. Yeah, I'm both them there Took both pills, when a bloke in a trench coat and the locs in the chair had approached him here The first line makes reference to the previous line when it uses the metaphor of the car (which I discussed in my previous post). I also talked about how he uses the idea of a minstrel show to compare how the shallow messages of current rappers compare to the shallow and racist portrayal of blacks in these shows. The next part, about roadkill in the grill could be referring to how other rappers are like roadkill in a car that he is driving or, since he gave over the wheel in the last verse it could be that the listeners/rappers are failing to avoid the BS (the deer and chickens) that plague much of rap. The last section of this line is likely referring to Lupe himself when he says he is trill (a slang term coming from the combination of the words "true" and "real" meaning that the rapper is well respected) and sincere. The second line of the section you quoted is, as I stated previously, is an allusion to the Matrix. I don't know if you've seen the movie, but Neo, the main character (played by Keanu Reeves) is offered two pills (one red, one blue) by a man in a trench coat. The blue pill would transport Neo back to his normal life (which we find out is just an illusion created by computers). The red pill would take Neo out of the "fake" world and into the real one. Lupe, by saying that he is taking both pills, says that he will remain in the rap game, while staying real at the same time. Now I'm not sure what you found wrong with either of these lines, but I'm here is my interpretation of each if that clears anything up. Hence the absence of an analysis on your part? Don't worry, I won't run away because your argument is a page-or-two long. The reason I didn't write a full analysis of the song, was because I thought it was a pointless exercise. I mean you tried to analyze "Dumb it Down", and for the most part it was a waste of time for both of us. You are the one who is convinced "New York" is a good song, so I assumed you would be the one to try and convince me. The way you want to go about doing this is backwards. But fine, you want an analysis then an analysis you shall get. Like you when you analyzed the Lupe song, song however, I will be hindered by the fact that I am not familiar with the song. I'll do my best though: In New York freedom looks like Too many choices This is clearly a reference to how much there is to do in New York, as well as a statement about how freedom, one of America's most important values, is so clearly exemplified in the daily life of New York. He also gives a slight negative connotation to the idea that there are too many choices, which probably refers to the whole idea that in our modern life we are offered so many options that it can be overwhelming. Reminds me of the line (I forget who said it) 200 channels, and not one good thing on T.V. In New York I found a friend To drown out the other voices Either this means that he met someone in New York who mattered to him, or, more likely, that New York was the friend he made which allowed him to settle his nerves. It was a place he really fit in. Voices on the cell phone Voices from home Voices of the hard sell Voices down the stairwell In New York These lines appear to be a representation of the singers anxieties which are soothed by his New friend (see what I did there?). He is constantly barraged by cell phone calls, his family, advertisements and...well I don't know what he's referencing with voices down the stairwell. Maybe there's a lot of buildings in New York, and thus lots of stairwells? If you have thoughts on this go right ahead and clue me in. Just got a place in New York This is part of the narrative that he is going to be referring to throughout the rest of the song. Obviously he just moved to New York. In New York summers get hot Well into the hundreds You can't walk around the block Without a change of clothin' Summers being hot obviously can refer to the literal temperature being so hot that people sweat through their clothes. On a deeper level he may be referring to all the activity that goes on in New York, and how many people have to show multiple versions of themselves when they go from place to place. Hot as a hairdryer in your face Hot as a handbag and a can of mace New York I just got a place in New York You analyzed part of this section, and there isn't all that much else there (so far as I can see, of course feel free to point out what I missed). The hairdryer in your face part is a pretty good comparison to a muggy day in new york. In New York you can forget Forget how to sit still Tell yourself you will stay in But it's down to Alphaville Relatively straightforward lyric. With the hustle and bustle of New York it's impossible to not be constantly doing something. There is always something going on so you can't stay in. I don't get the Alphaville reference...a place in New York maybe? The Irish have been comin' here for years Feel like they own the place They got the airport, city hall, asphalt, dance floor They even got the police Referring to the history of Irish immigrants in New York and their current political influence. Also a reference to Bono's own Irish heritage (presumably he is the one moving there? I don't know if this song is based on a real story or not) Irish, Italians, Jews and Hispanics Religious nuts, political fanatics in the stew Happily, not like me and you That's where I lost you, New York Singer is commenting on the fact that there is a lot of diversity in New York, and a wide variety of different perspectives on things like religion and politics. The singer is saying that he and his wife are not like these ideological extremists, however. We also get another piece of information about the singers personal life, in that he lost his wife after they moved to New York. In New York I lost it all To you and your vices Still I'm stayin' on to figure out My mid life crisis Here is the interesting part, story wise. It appears that while in New York something in their relationship went wrong and his wife left the city. The singer, on the other hand, is trying to deal with his mid-life crisis, by staying in the city, which he clearly loves. I hit an iceberg in my life You know I'm still afloat You lose your balance, lose your wife In the queue for the lifeboat More juicy story lines. The comparison of his life to the sinking of the titanic is apparent and shows how dramatically and quickly his life has become a shipwreck. The singer is still surviving, but only barely and now without his wife. You got to put the women and children first But you've got an unquenchable thirst for New York Now it's beginning to look like he gave up his wife and kids for the city itself. He allowed the city to get in the way of his family and now they have left him, yet still he refuses to leave New York. In the stillness of the evening When the sun has had it's day I heard your voice whisperin' Come away now Perhaps a final request by his wife to leave the city before he loses his family? Either the ending is ambiguous (he leaves or he doesn't and we don't know which) or as previous lines suggested, he stays in the city and doesn't leave. So that's what I got from the song. Assuming I didn't fuck it up royally (a big assumption for me to make) then I would argue that while "New York" may be a good and well written song, it still doesn't compare to "Dumb it Down" if we are judging both on lyrical content. I'm not going to say much more about it here though since you still need to tell me if I did the song justice (which is why this whole system of analyzing each others songs is backwards). Seems like you completely missed the political commentary to me. Well now I've missed it twice. How about we stop playing hide and go seek, and you just point out what I am clearly too thick to perceive. I disagree. While that's well and good, I provided an argument. So at one point you believe most rap is lyrically deficient, and at others you believe it is superior to all other genres, exclusively because of its lyrics. Ughhhhhh...I thought I was pretty clear about this but I'll spell it out. I think that most mainstream rappers have songs with hollow meanings and not a lot of depth. What these rappers can do though is write clever rhymes that usually have two meanings. The underlying theme of these rhymes though are usually about misogyny, violence or other equally shallow ideas (gold chains for example). Understand? These rappers are good with lyrics, but aren't really saying anything worth hearing. Lupe is both good at creating clever lyrics, and is talking about meaningful subjects. This is why he stands out. And I find it amusing that you are unaware of your own lack of ability, and wish to point out the irony of that statement. You misinterpreted New York, and now you accuse me of misinterpreting Dumb it Down. How did I misinterpret "New York"? I'm not disagreeing, and I very well could have (in fact probably did) but you offer no reasons on how I misinterpreted it. In short, show me where I fucked up. I'm assuming that if you had a good argument about how I fucked it up you would have presented it, for no other reason than to make me look bad. If this isn't the case however, and you do have a legitimate reason why I am inept at interpreting "New York" then go right ahead. Do you actually wish for me to do that? It is not a brief undertaking to decipher a poem, even a part of it. It can take hours to type, not to mention the point that poems have many meanings, and that it is virtually impossible to be wrong if you back up your assertions. To run through all the interpretations (even my own) is something I am simply unwilling to do. Oh god no, that's not what I meant at all. I might not be nice, but I'm not a sadist. My point was that you often can't understand a good piece of poetry merely by reading over it once. I definitely didn't want you to analyze "The Wasteland" though. That would have been terrible (unless you're into that thing). I also don't think that it's interpretation would serve any purpose whatsoever. To be clear: no need to interpret anything. This seems masochistic to me. I enjoyed ever single play. It's also one of the reasons I didn't mind writing a critique of it, because it allowed me to think critically about the lyrics, and revel in Lupe's genius. I'm not asking you to be a fan though, just to get a little perspective on why I am. Your illusions of intellectual superiority neither amuse nor intimidate me. In your contempt for me and my musical predilections, you reveal yourself to be of the same character of Lupe himself. While dragging oneself out of a ghetto is commendable, I wish that he would leave the idiosyncrasies behind; they are clearly infecting you. Feeling a little insecure are we? I'm surprised you haven't brought up meaningless test scores yet. I don't lay claim to any intellectual superiority. You aren't an idiot clearly, but you are arrogant and this is the only quality of yours I don't like, because it blinds you from the legitimacy of other's points of view. Don't mistake this as disdain or hatred though...you could be a great guy for all I know. I just know that on this site, you tend to act like someone whose opinion of himself is larger than the highest sky scrapers in New York. Side: No
1
point
Sigh. This will not be over quickly. Please attempt to shorten your response, as I do have other things to attend to. It amuses me that you responded to an obvious joke with such passion, having failed to read my first argument in the debate, but this is getting unmanageably big. Argue? There was no argument, you just admitted to being a stubborn nutjob who believes in government conspiracies and refuses to listen to science. See the word novel. Besides, I have had a long scientific debate with mahollinder on the issue. You think I want to do the same thing twice? I can understand though if you're frustrated on being called out about your lack of knowledge on a subject. I would be too if I regarded my own intelligence as highly as you do yours. Must be a great shock when you go into reality and find you are mistaken. There is a disparity between knowledge and Intelligence. Also, are you seriously dumb enough to think that capitalism and environmentalism are incompatible? Did I say that? If I did then I was mistaken and for that I apologise. Now obviously you don't listen to rap so the issue isn't as important to you, but Lupe is talking to people who grew up listening almost entirely to rap. Then surely the worth of the lyrics is entirely subjective? I have never referred to a girl as a bitch, nor do I associate with those who listen to rap music. If those who do wish to objectify themselves and each other, then so be it. If people are stupid enough to act according to the whims of Snoop Dog and 50 Cent, then they deserve everything they get. You must understand that to me and my peers, there is no issue with any of this. To that end, while the efforts of Lupe are commendable, his lyrics will forever be of no relevance. I completely understand your fascination with them, as you are (I assume) part of or close to the culture that is so blighted. But to me, his lyrics are as meaningful as the words of Karl Marx - Good for some, but not for me. These are people who freestyle with their friends on weekends (harder than it sounds by the way, only a couple of my friends are decent at it) What is freestyling? and many of whom see being discovered as a rap artist as the only way to get out of their situation. It clearly is if they are stupid enough to believe what you described to be the message of most rap. It's not news to anyone that most rap songs glorify lavish lifestyles, just turn on MTV cribs to see what I'm talking about. If as you say most rap is centred on this, surely my negative opinion of it is justified? There are one or two decent(ish) ABBA songs, but most of it is rubbish, so I still hate them. Even if I am wrong about Lupe, you have yourself admitted that the majority of the genre is materialistic, misogynistic crap. Lupe isn't allowed to criticize the fans of other artists, because that right is yours exclusively? Your logic is incomprehensible. Your incredulity is irrelevant. Lupe is an artist. In criticising his competitors, he is championing himself. That is quite annoying to me. How should he have responded if he sees a problem? "Um could you guys please stop making songs that degrade women? I would really appreciate that, thanks." Something tells me that this probably wouldn't get his message across to his listeners. As I recall, Walk On didn't get Aung San Suu Kyi released, but Obama's speeches about change got him elected. Nor does your argument about the theme being important to you really undermine the song's message or lyrics. I care little about the issues of 19th century industrial workers in England, yet I can still recognize Hard Times by Charles Dickens as an extremely well written and important novel. You would compare Lupe to Dickens? Dickens was an exceptional writer. Lupe doesn't even come close. As far as the self promoting part (A), even Shakespere bragged about himself in his sonnets. Your arguments about envy and spite are unfounded as well since the entire tone of the song is humorous. Once again, should he be politely asking the other rappers who write songs like Move Bitch to kindly stop degrading women? Face it, the only reason you have issue with this is because you went into this debate with certain notions about rap, and regardless of what evidence is shown to you, you will see what you want. The majority of your arguments have been your own opinion, yet you argue that the quality of lupe's writing is beyond subjective. I told you that doesn't matter. We are trying to move beyond subjectivity a little. At some points you do, but at others you talk about cultural context. Were you to argue something like: "I don't like most rap because it is simplistically written and I disagree with the themes presented by many mainstream rappers" then you would have a legitimate argument. Actually that sounds familiar... Is there an inference in that? What, you realize that New York wasn't a good example? No. As I recall you posted many examples of your own favourites. What confused me though is that I gave you the oppurtunity to choose any song in any genre, and you chose the one you did. As it confuses me that your favourite genre is rap. I didn't realise you wanted me to ruminate for hours and to pluck from my archives the very greatest song in my possession. All along the watchtower by Bob Dylan was written in the spirit of the Beat movement of the 60's and the lyrics can be classified more as a poem then the lyrics to a song (although the song itself is good too). I am killing myself now. That was my first choice. My point with this being that finding another good song in and of itself doesn't show that Lupe's song is poorly written, unless it is somehow leaps and bounds better. Or to put it another way: no one could argue that Ted Kaczynski wasn't a bad man because Osama Bin Laden is worse. And yet your first argument seemed to imply that rap wasn't bad because there were, in your opinion, a few good examples. I did ask for an example of a song that does have good lyrics though, and if your point was valid then that song should not even be comparable lyrically to Lupe's song. Tenuous logic. If I think the lyrics of Dumb it down are bad, then it stands to reason that I could choose any song I liked to compare it to. First, the whole thing is tongue-in-cheek. Second, he's not the only one since nearly every reviewer agrees. And even those who think his album The Cool was only good, and not great still point to "Dumb it Down" as a very intelligent and well written song. Even Jay-Z, one of the most respected rappers of all time, has called him a "genius rapper. Those sites were focused on rap. As most of it is so awful, it is only natural that something different would receive positive reviews from them. Regardless, I place little faith in internet reviews, or indeed reviews in general. They rarely have any bearing on what audiences want from something. The guy is having fun with this rap, and if you actually paid attention you would see this. He's confident yes, but not to the point of "spite and anger" as you proclaim. Now, maybe your not used to music like this, so I can understand if you didn't immediately pick up on the tone, but the chorus alone should have clued you into that. Why is it so hard for you to understand that I don't like rap, bad grammar or that cultural context? If the writing does not entertain me, then why should I consider it to be well written, just because it deals with a problem that I don't care about? To clarify, I am racist; I care very little for black people or the rap-induced misogyny of their youth. I said that you may not be used to the language. Maybe you are and I'm mistaken, and if so great. The song will be easier to understand. With your petty complaints about grammar though, I'd say it's a good bet you aren't too familiar with it. Unrelated but I'll comment anyway: while To Kill a Mockingbird is a great novel, and certainly an American classic that deals well with race in the American south, Mark Twain's novel is historically more important because it is one of the first major literary critiques of the racism that existed in the south. Hemmingway said: "All modern American literature comes from" Huck Finn. I also enjoyed it because I am partial to satirical works, which is why Hard Times is my favorite 19th century British novel, and one of the reasons why I enjoy "Dumb it Down." I'm not making this debate any longer than it needs to be. If you wish to debate on the cultural worth of past novels, then create such a debate. You skipped a part. I don't know if this was intentional or accidental but here is the full lyric: The windshield is minstrel, the whole grill is roadkill, so trill and so sincere. Yeah, I'm both them there Took both pills, when a bloke in a trench coat and the locs in the chair had approached him here The first line makes reference to the previous line when it uses the metaphor of the car (which I discussed in my previous post). I also talked about how he uses the idea of a minstrel show to compare how the shallow messages of current rappers compare to the shallow and racist portrayal of blacks in these shows. The next part, about roadkill in the grill could be referring to how other rappers are like roadkill in a car that he is driving or, since he gave over the wheel in the last verse it could be that the listeners/rappers are failing to avoid the BS (the deer and chickens) that plague much of rap. The last section of this line is likely referring to Lupe himself when he says he is trill (a slang term coming from the combination of the words "true" and "real" meaning that the rapper is well respected) and sincere. The second line of the section you quoted is, as I stated previously, is an allusion to the Matrix. I don't know if you've seen the movie, but Neo, the main character (played by Keanu Reeves) is offered two pills (one red, one blue) by a man in a trench coat. The blue pill would transport Neo back to his normal life (which we find out is just an illusion created by computers). The red pill would take Neo out of the "fake" world and into the real one. Lupe, by saying that he is taking both pills, says that he will remain in the rap game, while staying real at the same time. Now I'm not sure what you found wrong with either of these lines, but I'm here is my interpretation of each if that clears anything up. Thank you. Welcome, to the desert, of the real. In New York freedom looks like Too many choices This is clearly a reference to how much there is to do in New York, as well as a statement about how freedom, one of America's most important values, is so clearly exemplified in the daily life of New York. He also gives a slight negative connotation to the idea that there are too many choices, which probably refers to the whole idea that in our modern life we are offered so many options that it can be overwhelming. Reminds me of the line (I forget who said it) 200 channels, and not one good thing on T.V. Correct. In New York I found a friend To drown out the other voices Voices on the cell phone Voices from home Voices of the hard sell Voices down the stairwell In New York The frothing maelstrom of people that comprises the population of New York produces a cacophony so overwhelming as makes it seem like a vast ocean. Each is indifferent to the bombardment of voices that so unnerved the singer. They come from all angles, a relentless wave of conversation and advertisement. Modernisation has made the life of every person stressful, fast and hectic, but over time their indifference has perpetuated and exacerbated the problem. However, large as it is, it is made up of individuals. Each unique, each with friends, enemies, lovers and haters. Within each is the potential for a new friend, who will help the singer adjust to the city and the New way of life that comes in the box. Just got a place in New York This is an allusion to the difficulty one experiences in attaining an apartment in New York, as well as to the pride and accomplishment that comes with success. It also suggests that in a materialistic world, securing a dwelling in the capital of the material, New York, is the ultimate achievement, something which can be boasted about to any and all. It may also reference the seemingly casual way boastful people speak about their achievements, in the hope of making themselves seem more impressive and successful. In New York summers get hot Well into the hundreds You can't walk around the block Without a change of clothin' In summer, New York is transformed. Summer is one of the most important times of the year for the fashion industry. The heat refers to both the actual temperature, and the heat of the competition between designers and their customers. Every day a new piece of clothing, to the extent that people change their clothing every block so that they can never be seen in the same clothes as before. The well into the hundreds suggests that the number of people who practice this is very high (in context of temperature. It may also, as you said, refer to the need to change persona depending on your present company. Hot as a hairdryer in your face Hot as a handbag and a can of mace New York I just got a place in New York A good description of the summer, but more importantly it continues the fashion metaphor. The hair-dryer brings hairstyles into the song. The handbag and the can of mace represent other important, "hot" items. Handbags are the ultimate expression of feminine materialism, while the can of mace they contain is an allusion to the growing fear of sexual assault, and the methods of defending themselves that women have come up with. It may, as I said before, be a joke about a sexual advance the singer made, which amounted to a spray in the face from the "handbag" (a slang term for fashionable women). In New York you can forget Forget how to sit still Tell yourself you will stay in But it's down to Alphaville Not straightforward at all. In New York, as you said, there is much to do. On one level the singer refers to this, but the other level is much darker. It makes an allusion to the prevalence of drugs and addiction in New York. You tell yourself that you will "stay in" (addicts frequently tell themselves that they will quit or stay sober), but that it is down to Alphaville (a shop), which is a new place to visit. It represents the move to new things, new addictions, that occur despite the best attempts of the addict. He is, on a third level, saying that he is addicted chiefly to New York. The Irish have been comin' here for years Feel like they own the place They got the airport, city hall, asphalt, dance floor They even got the police As you said. The Irish wield considerable influence in New York. Irish, Italians, Jews and Hispanics Religious nuts, political fanatics in the stew Happily, not like me and you That's where I lost you, New York Now, the plot thickens. This refers to staggering number of nationalities and ideologies that inhabit New York.It is overtly condemning the bigotry of the religious and political systems that exist there. Beneath though, is a humorous observation that despite the unpleasantness of these ideologies, it is better to belong to one. This is evidenced by the line Happily, not like me and you. Superficially it appears to be thankful that they are not part of it. What it is really saying is that these idealists are happy, and in deciding not to belong to one of the groups, the singer and his wife are effectively cutting themselves off from society and happiness. The fourth line states that the singer lost his wife there. This either means that the wife joined a group and ostracised the singer, or that the singer joined a group and that the wife, disgusted, left him. In New York I lost it all To you and your vices Still I'm stayin' on to figure out My mid life crisis This refers to the hollowness of material pleasures when those who matter to you leave. The singer says he has lost it all, meaning his wife. The second line may refer to part of the argument he had with her, in which he said that her vices were holding them back, and blames her for their split. He says then that despite her loss, he is staying in New York, to figure out why he is unhappy despite living in the city of his dreams. I hit an iceberg in my life You know I'm still afloat You lose your balance, lose your wife In the queue for the lifeboat This is his conclusion after his soul-searching. It is an extended metaphor. His life was in his regard, unsinkable and perfect. the Titanic was the epitome of luxury, with all the trappings of wealth and high society, as was his life. But, like the ship, his life hit an iceberg when his wife left him and he realise that it was in reality her that was making him happy, not New York. The loss of balance is both a joke and a continuation of the story. The joke is that New York is expensive and will drain your bank balance. The story is continued in that he was losing all control to his addiction to New York and its earthly pleasures. The last line reflects the selfishness of people when they are in dire straits. You got to put the women and children first But you've got an unquenchable thirst for New York This refers to the crisis of priority which the singer beheld in New York. He says that the inhabitants are more concerned with wealth and career than they are about raising their children and maintaining happy families. He says the lifestyle creates an insatiable hole in the person, which in reality can only be filled by love, but that people ignore this and instead try to fill it with more of New York, creating a never-ending tragedy. It also serves to continue the story of the singer's relationship with the city. In the stillness of the evening When the sun has had it's day I heard your voice whisperin' Come away now When the pleasure is gone, the glory utterly spent and the deplorableness of his situation is laid bare, the singer realises that he has made a mistake in choosing New York over his love (Paloma Faith's New York was similar). He hears the promise of forgiveness form his wife and we are left wondering whether he will accept it. I did not include it, but at the very end, there is a whisper "New York". Suggesting that like any addiction, the singer will never be rid of the temptation of New York. Now, as you can imagine,that took some time to type, but I hope the analysis does not fall on deaf ears. There are many levels to the song, and I have not covered all of them, but I think you can see that there is a lot more to this song than the superficial story. This, in my opinion, is far superior to the insular message of Dumb it Down. I just know that on this site, you tend to act like someone whose opinion of himself is larger than the highest sky scrapers in New York. Clever. Side: yes
1
point
Short and distilled for your pleasure. First: You've convinced me, New York is a very well written song with meanings that are beyond superficial. I did about a poor a job interpreting that as you did with "Dumb it Down." 2nd: The first fact does nothing to diminish how well written "Dumb it Down is" 3rd Funny you should criticize "Dumb it Down" for being based on culture when "New York" does the same. 4th If you are bigoted against blacks and black culture then I guess there is nothing I can say that will convince you that good music can be produced from these people. 5th While the lyrics of many rappers are meaningless, I don't use this as an excuse to throw out the whole genre. Were this the case then there would likely be few genres I could listen to. 6th Free-styling is when someone plays a beat and someone raps to it without anything written down beforehand. It's like improv, but with rap. 7th I laughed when you said that "All Along the Watchtower" was your first choice. At least we have some common ground. 8th I enjoy the music of other cultures, even if I don't fully understand them. I've listened to cuban hip-hop, Mexican rock, french techno and a million other things that I enjoy. If we isolate ourselves within our own culture then things can get boring. I try not to be so arrogant as to assume that my own culture is the best. If I missed any important points that you wanted me to address just bring them up in your response to this. Also, send me a link to your debate with maholinder if you don't mind. I'd be happy to see your scientific arguments against global warming. Side: No
1
point
You've convinced me, New York is a very well written song with meanings that are beyond superficial. I did about a poor a job interpreting that as you did with "Dumb it Down." I am glad we are in agreement. The first fact does nothing to diminish how well written "Dumb it Down is" Then we shall, as they say agree to disagree. Funny you should criticize "Dumb it Down" for being based on culture when "New York" does the same. It was a subjective criticism. If you are bigoted against blacks and black culture then I guess there is nothing I can say that will convince you that good music can be produced from these people. Not entirely true. See my response to point 7. While the lyrics of many rappers are meaningless, I don't use this as an excuse to throw out the whole genre. Were this the case then there would likely be few genres I could listen to. True. Free-styling is when someone plays a beat and someone raps to it without anything written down beforehand. It's like improv, but with rap. I see. I laughed when you said that "All Along the Watchtower" was your first choice. At least we have some common ground. So let us stop talking falsely now. I enjoy the music of other cultures, even if I don't fully understand them. As do I, but I can scarcely think of ghetto culture without abhorrence. I've listened to cuban hip-hop, Mexican rock, french techno and a million other things that I enjoy. I know little of these things, though I have heard Maleguena Salerosa. If we isolate ourselves within our own culture then things can get boring. Not with a culture so wonderful as England's. I try not to be so arrogant as to assume that my own culture is the best. Part of English culture is to assume so. Thus I will not apologise. Also, send me a link to your debate with maholinder if you don't mind. I'd be happy to see your scientific arguments against global warming. It is here. On the right side, beginning just before the first video on the left side. I have since learned that mahollinder is a... formidable opponent. Side: yes
1
point
Actually Thursdays are my save the dolphins vegan cupcake sale. Polar bears are every other tuesday. Pitiful. No one (who wasn't dropped as a child) would argue that Nickelback are better artists than The Beatles. Ever heard the word "generalization"? There are obviously cultural differences that can contribute to our appreciation of music, but since we both speak English and both live in western modern democracies (you are from the U.K. right?) then our cultural differences shouldn't be too great. Ha! And that's minor compared to all the differences! I'm fearless Now hear this I'm earless And I'm peer-less That means I'm eyeless Which means I'm tearless Which means my iris resides where my ears is Which means I'm blinded But I'mma find it I can feel it's nearness But I'mma veer so I don't come near Like a chicken or a deer But I remember I'm not a listener or a seer so my windshield smear Here, you steer, I really shouldn't be behind this, clearly cause my blindness The windshield is minstrel, the whole grill is roadkill, so trill and so sincere. Yeah, I'm both them there Took both pills, when a bloke in a trench coat and the locs in the chair had approached him here And he clear as a ghost, so a biter of the throats in the mirror The writer of the quotes for the ghosts who supplier of the notes to the living Riveting is rosy, pockets full of posies, given to the mother of the deceased. Awaken at war, 'til I'm restin' in peace That was so horrendous that my mind's eye (ear?) couldn't stand to get through the whole thing. Like a good movie, the complexity of the rhymes are such that I needed to listen to the song a number of times to fully understand it. But I'mma find it I can feel it's nearness But I'mma veer so I don't come near Yup, that sure is complex! [sarcasm] Side: yes
1
point
I've addressed all this in my response to enigmaticman's post. Please go to my most recent one. Just because you don't understand what the lyrics mean doesn't mean they aren't complex...it means you're either close minded, or thick (or both). Once again refer to my most recent response to enigmaticman if you want to know why I described these lyrics as complex. Unlike you, he at least tried to understand what the meaning of the lyrics was. Who knows? You may even learn something about good music. Side: No
1
point
I've addressed all this in my response to enigmaticman's post. And I read most of it. However, I wanted to make note of your generalization - you being so against them and all - that, not wanting to only dispute one section, I chose to dispute other parts. Just because you don't understand what the lyrics mean So you are saying that the only way in which one cannot like the lyrics is to not understand them? I read EnigmaticMan's dispute, and agreed with it for the most part. I just don't like rap, regardless of the meaning. it means you're either close minded, or thick (or both). I've heard rap before. There was even a tune or two which I thought of as "catchy". I daren't venture any further, though; the overall quality is heinous to say the least. unlike you, he at least tried to understand what the meaning of the lyrics was. Perhaps I did try, but simply not in writing on this site? You may even learn something about good music. Define "good". Side: yes
1
point
You seriously need to buy a dictionary/actually pay attention to my arguments. I didn't generalize anyone, except maybe people who think Nickelback is better than the Beatles. These people need a fork stabbed in their ear. There I said it, so sue me. I'm not sure how this counts as a generalization since I'm not actually sure there are any people who hold the opinion that the Beatles were less talented than Nickelback. There are certainly people who would rather listen to Nickelback, but this isn't what I was saying (try to keep up). So you are saying that the only way in which one cannot like the lyrics is to not understand them? I read EnigmaticMan's dispute, and agreed with it for the most part. I just don't like rap, regardless of the meaning. No, my point was that you Terminator, don't understand the lyrics. Not people in general, not people who like this or that music, but you. Go ahead an prove me wrong if you want. I also don't care one way or another if you like to listen to the music. Like I said to enigmaticman, I don't like classical music but Beethoven was clearly a very good artist, and I am not going to take that away from him just because I don't like to listen to his songs. I've heard rap before. There was even a tune or two which I thought of as "catchy". I daren't venture any further, though; the overall quality is heinous to say the least. As I've had to explain a hundred times in this debate, I don't care about "catchy" tunes. For all that it matters to this argument they could have been throat-singing while scraping their nails on the chalkboard. I was arguing about the lyrics, not the way in which they are delivered. As far as the majority of the genre in this respect, you may have a point if you are talking about the stuff on the radio. That's why I provided good examples of rap, and didn't just say rap in general. Perhaps I did try, but simply not in writing on this site? Or perhaps you didn't? Why do you phrase it as a question. You know whether you did or didn't and if you did and I was wrong then show me...or even easier, look at my interpretation (since I already agree with it) and argue either a) why you think I'm wrong about this interpretation or b) why I'm right, but the song still sucks. This is pretty straightforward...I've already done all the work, and if you continue along your current trend so has enigmaticman since you're just going to repeat whatever he said. Define "good". Well we're talking about lyrics, so meaningful would be a good word to use. And I mean that in multiple ways. Side: No
1
point
You seriously need to buy a dictionary Why? I didn't generalize anyone, except maybe people who think Nickelback is better than the Beatles. That's a generalization! These people need a fork stabbed in their ear. That's the liberal way: eliminate anybody who doesn't agree with you. I've heard liberals call for it other times, such as with Fox News or religion. I've had a liberal who said that people should be allowed to burn down churches. There I said it, so sue me. If I could, I would not. Too many outrageous lawsuits these days. I'm not sure how this counts as a generalization since I'm not actually sure there are any people who hold the opinion that the Beatles were less talented than Nickelback. There are certainly people who would rather listen to Nickelback, but this isn't what I was saying I understood what you said. No, my point was that you Terminator, don't understand the lyrics. I pretty much thought what EnigmaticMan had written. However, I believe you know my knowledge of slang is horrendous. Not people in general, not people who like this or that music, but you. Depends on the person. Go ahead an prove me wrong if you want. I won't. I'd rather not have to hear that noise in my head again. I also don't care one way or another if you like to listen to the music. We are debating about the value of the music in comparison with other genres, is this not true? Like I said to enigmaticman, I don't like classical music but Beethoven was clearly a very good artist There is even bad classical music. However, I have never heard - and doubt I ever will find - a rap "song" which can ever compare to Wagner or Grieg. You may think that I've heard too few rap "songs" for this opinion to be valid; but, I remind you, that I am a cinephile. Rap is becoming common to use as background noise in film. and I am not going to take that away from him just because I don't like to listen to his songs. How American of you. Definition of "song": "a usually relatively short musical composition consisting of words set to music " Unless I am mistaken, Beethoven's works - or, at the very least, most of them - were not lyrical. For all that it matters to this argument they could have been throat-singing while scraping their nails on the chalkboard. Is that not what rap is? I was arguing about the lyrics, not the way in which they are delivered. But that makes a world of difference. The lyrics could be the most masterful ever written, but if the style in which they are delivered is uncouth or undesirable, the quality lessens dramatically. Charge of the Light Brigade is perhaps my favorite poem but, if it were sung as rap, I'd dislike it because I dislike the enunciation in rap; I dislike the "in-your-face" feel of rap; I dislike the background music in rap; the obnoxious style in which music videos are created; I can't find anything good about rap. Even if it were the best piece ever written, those other obstacles - for lack of a better word - would stand in the way of enjoyability. As far as the majority of the genre in this respect, you may have a point if you are talking about the stuff on the radio. Then why doesn't the radio play better songs? Note: I just finished listening to the beginning of an Ice-T song. He's great on Law & Order SVU so I thought that, for this debate, I might as well give him a try. Whilst I still found it atrocious, it was not so bad as most others I have heard. Or perhaps you didn't? I did try, a bit. Not too much because, as I've said many times before, modern slang is far beyond me - especially ethnic or regional slang. Why do you phrase it as a question. Habit. look at my interpretation I did. I liked it, somewhat; however, EnigmaticMan had a terrific response to your interpretation. Well we're talking about lyrics, so meaningful would be a good word to use. The most meaningful lyrics, if badly written, are of little value. Side: yes
1
point
Ughhhh...I'm not getting into another argument about liberals with you. I give up, you are beyond reasoning with. Congrats on finding the only people on earth who think Nickelback are better than the Beatles. I may have taken their position more seriously though if they spelled Nickelback right. I've already argued with EnigmaticMan, I don't plan on doing it twice. If you have any original opinions present them. Otherwise don't waste my time. Rap is becoming common to use as background noise in film... Sorry if I don't consider you knowledgeable because you heard it in a couple movies. Definition of "song" Semantics...you know what I meant. Is that not what rap is? Here is throat-singing. I actually saw a pretty cool documentary about it. I'm still of the opinion that it sounds awful though. But that makes a world of difference... And I like the way that they are delivered...love it in fact. My only point was that since we obviously aren't going to agree on that, we should concentrate on something that is less reliant on subjective musical tastes. Then why doesn't the radio play better songs? Ask the people who own the radio stations. A lot of time popular opinion of songs is pretty bad. People don't always want to listen to music with intellectual meanings, but would rather hear someone talking about their gold studded teeth. Ice T He was pretty good back in the day. No one of my favorites though. If you are interested in listening to a couple rap songs I consider good, I also posted Get By by Talib Kweli. Or don't if you don't want to. I did. I liked it, somewhat; however, EnigmaticMan had a terrific response to your interpretation. Once again, get an original opinion about the song, or my interpretation of it and we can talk. The most meaningful lyrics, if badly written, are of little value. Fortunately "Dumb it Down" is written amazingly well. Side: No
and to prove that not all rappers fall into the media stereotype you hear on the radio (and because Lupe is such a great artist): I'm actually fairly certain that this does fall into the media stereotype of rap. It is simply a black man talking to a repetitive drumbeat. Side: yes
1
point
I think you misinterpreted what I meant by media stereotype. I was talking not about the style of music, but the content. In the media rap is often portrayed as womanizing, violent and unintelligent. I was giving examples of rappers whose lyrics do not fall into this category. Lupe's song actually is criticizing those rappers who make music that is misogynistic and unintelligent. Side: No
I think you misinterpreted what I meant by media stereotype. Well, then my interpretation of media stereotype is better. I was talking not about the style of music, but the content. As am I. In the media rap is often portrayed as womanizing, violent and unintelligent. Honestly, that was very unintelligent. I could barely understand the lyrics, and furthermore, I did catch multiple swear words (which undoubtedly fits the media stereotype of rap). Lupe's song actually is criticizing those rappers who make music that is misogynistic and unintelligent. Well congratulations to Lupe! Unfortunately, I could not understand half of what he said, so in actuality, it was rather pointless. Side: yes
1
point
Well, then my interpretation of media stereotype is better. Your interpretation of what I said is better than my own...okay, sure. As am I. Black rapper, and drumbeat...real deep analysis. Honestly, that was very unintelligent. I could barely understand the lyrics, and furthermore, I did catch multiple swear words (which undoubtedly fits the media stereotype of rap). If you want the lyrics, here they are. The swearing you heard was satirical. Lupe wasn't the one swearing, but instead it was another rapper who was supposed to represent mainstream rap. If you actually tried to understand the song next time then maybe I wouldn't have to sit you down like a child and explain it to you. Well congratulations to Lupe! Unfortunately, I could not understand half of what he said, so in actuality, it was rather pointless. Maybe he should make it into a sing-a-long with the words at the bottom and a bouncing ball. Would you understand it then? Probably not? Well, I don't know if I can help you there. Out of curiosity what type of music do you like? Side: No
Your interpretation of what I said is better than my own...okay, sure. No, you did not invent the media stereotype. Black rapper, and drumbeat...real deep analysis. Is there something more profound in rap than I am missing? Maybe he should make it into a sing-a-long with the words at the bottom and a bouncing ball. Would you understand it then? Probably not? Well, I don't know if I can help you there. Yes, maybe he should. I'm sure it would be much more popular. It doesn't matter. Everything loses its authenticity when misheard. Out of curiosity what type of music do you like? Why do you need to know this? Side: yes
1
point
No, you did not invent the media stereotype. Of course not, but I had something very specific in mind when I said media stereotype. Is there something more profound in rap than I am missing? There is in the song I was referring to, and numerous other songs. I'd be happy to give some examples and explain why there is more. Also there are plenty of good rappers who aren't black... you are aware of this right? Yes, maybe he should. I'm sure it would be much more popular. It doesn't matter. Everything loses its authenticity when misheard. Most people who listen to his music don't mishear what he said. It's not difficult to understand if you try and listen a little. If you go into a song expecting to dislike it, then probably you won't hear the lyrics right. Why do you need to know this? I don't, just curious. If you're not comfortable telling me then no worries. Side: No
Of course not, but I had something very specific in mind when I said media stereotype. Care to elaborate? There is in the song I was referring to, and numerous other songs. I'd be happy to give some examples and explain why there is more. I'm astounded. Please do! Also there are plenty of good rappers who aren't black... you are aware of this right? You are nearly as bad as Qymosabi. Most people who listen to his music don't mishear what he said. It's not difficult to understand if you try and listen a little. Are you attempting to claim that black people have better auditory skills than I? If you go into a song expecting to dislike it, then probably you won't hear the lyrics right. An innuendo that is merely irrelevant. I don't, just curious. If you're not comfortable telling me then no worries. I am extremely uncomfortable telling you this. In fact, I feel a rash coming on already! Side: yes
1
point
Care to elaborate? Sure. Often when rap music is portrayed in the media rappers are shown to be thugs and gangbangers whose music encourages violence and degrades women. These stereotypical rappers often blow there money on useless items like tricking out their cars and buy ridiculously lavish homes. Sadly, in many cases, this stereotype isn't too far off the mark. This is what Lupe Fiasco's song is arguing against. It is criticizing both the rappers who make songs with negative, and misogynistic messages as well as those fans who listen to, and even demand that type of rap. I'm astounded. Please do! I usually hate it when people copy and paste but I hope you'll excuse me this time since I already went through an interpretation of "Dumb it Down" by Lupe Fiasco in my argument with EnigmaticMan: "Now the first verse (the one you analyzed) is him talking to the fans of hip-hop/rap that he considers ignorant. In the first line he claims he is fearless because the whole song is essentially taking on the established paradigm of rap's subject matter which often is unintelligent and degrading to women (a common theme in Lupe's songs is criticizing those rappers which degrade women). By saying that he is earless, peerless and eyeless he is saying that he can't hear or see the critics (which are represented in the chorus) and that because of this he is tearless...in other words these critics don't bother him. Obviously the peerless part is a double entendre which could mean that he either has no equal when it comes to rap, or that no other rappers are doing what he is doing by criticizing the ignorance of many hip-hop artists. Another interpretation of this verse is that he is talking about blinded fans looking instead of listening ("which means my iris resides where my ears is"). The bullshit that exists in many rap songs is blinding, but Lupe says I'mma veer so I don't come near. The 'chicken or a deer" part is simply a metaphor about how he avoids the BS prevelant in mainstream rap like people avoid animals in the road (although if you can think of an alternative meaning I'd love to hear it...knowing Lupe there might be one). The line about him not being "a listener or a seer" means that he can't see clearly (my windshield smear) because he is the artist and not the audience. He doesn't have the proper perspective to judge his own lyrics and therefore hands over the wheel to the audience though, but they don't avoid what he had to veer away from so "the whole grill is roadkill. Another interpretation of this verse is that he is thinking about giving up the wheel entirely by separating himself from the rap game entirely because it is a "minstrel" show. (If your not familiar with what this is, it was when white people dressed in blackface and acted like caricature of black people. What Lupe is saying is that those people raping the the songs are portraying blacks no better.) In his next line he makes a reference to the matrix by saying he took both pills. What this likely means is that he is living in two worlds at the same time: the BS one created by ignorant hip-hop artists, and the "real" one which is where he believes the truth to lie. He is both a part of the hip-hop/rap world and removed from it at the same time. "The writer of the quotes for the ghosts who supplier of the notes to the living" appears to be him saying that he is a ghostwriter for ghost writers. In the final line of this verse he talks about how he is "Riveting as Rosie" which is a reference to the WWII Rosie the Riveter poster. This is a reference both to how good his raps are, and how he is looking to empower women with his rhymes...something not often seen in hip-hop/rap songs. This reference also relates to the rest of the line which goes Awaken at war, 'til I'm restin' in peace which likely means that he will be fighting until he dies to change the hip-hop/rap game for the better. The first Chorus is relatively self explanatory. It represents the pressure put on rappers (and specifically on Lupe) to conform to the standard themes of hip-hop and "dumb down" his lyrics. The first Chorus is mostly concerned with the fact that many of his lyrics are heady, and that most of the uneducated people in the hood don't want to hear that kind of music." So that is an interpretation of just the first verse and first chorus. Hopefully you can see that not all rap is as simplistic as you originally assumed. You are nearly as bad as Qymosabi. Some things aren't even funny to joke about. Are you attempting to claim that black people have better auditory skills than I? I'm not black but I understand it fine. What I'm saying is that people who regularly listen to rap have an easier time understanding rap. Would you disagree. I am extremely uncomfortable telling you this. In fact, I feel a rash coming on already! Don't be a fool, wrap your tool! STD's aren't fun ;) Side: No
Your interpretation of what I said is better than my own...okay, sure. No, you did not invent the media stereotype. Black rapper, and drumbeat...real deep analysis. Is there something more profound in rap than I am missing? Maybe he should make it into a sing-a-long with the words at the bottom and a bouncing ball. Would you understand it then? Probably not? Well, I don't know if I can help you there. Yes, maybe he should. I'm sure it would be much more popular. It doesn't matter. Everything loses its authenticity when misheard. Out of curiosity what type of music do you like? Why do you need to know this? Side: yes
1
point
Oh come on, I know your smarter than that. We cannot mistake the worst iteration for the entirety of that thing. He didn't even post the video of a real rapper, just some kid in his basement. Please read my response to him to get some examples of what I was talking about. Side: No
1
point
1
point
1
point
You criticize rap music, but I'm guessing that you know little about the genre. In my own opinion, the good rappers of the past couple years are some of the best lyricists in all of music. Music has gotten a lot better since 200 years ago, not worse. And your opinion differs vastly from my own. Side: yes
2
points
But I would argue that we would both come toward the center if we understood each others music. My point was that you aren't in a position to comment on rap because you know nothing about the genre other than maybe its portrayal as a mindless and womanizing genre in the media. There are rappers out there who are extremely talented...unfortunately these are not the ones that are often played on the radio so people like you (and others in this debate) assume that they don't exist. Side: No
In my own opinion, the good rappers of the past couple years are some of the best lyricists in all of music. Music has gotten a lot better since 200 years ago, not worse. Rappers have a very unfortunate problem. They generally have little intelligence and seem to think that because people listen to their songs regularly, they should be treated like royalty. This simpl should not be the case. The act of glorifying rappers has gone much too far, if you ask me. These guys are nothing more than a bunch of class A dummies. Also, when I listen to music, I prefer to be able to understand the lyrics. Side: yes
2
points
Not familiar with it. No, not any; however, most is detrimental. Those sentiments were no doubt echoed by past generations. From what I see, however, we are swiftly rising from a cesspit of repression and decay. Disco was, whilst I still rather dislike it, far superior to that rap crap. Thus your personal feelings for the music are not grounds for its detrimental effect (though I do agree with you). Is Rock 'n' Roll not still alive? It is, no thanks to the people who's opinions of it were not dissimilar to yours of rap. Great music; however, my predilections have always been centred on the pop music of the 1910s, 1920s, 1930s, 1940s, and 1950s. Which would explain your conservative opinion of new music. However, if all evolution was fought so bitterly as "R'n'B", then there would be no Rock 'n' Roll. Not entirely true. From about 1800-1900 the music was nearly all in a similar style. Again, there was similar style from about 1650-1800. Nearly all music before then is now lost; however, the evolution was not quite so drastic as has it been in the past half-century. Whether it was drastic or not, it was. Side: No
3
points
Depending on whether if one is a teen, the Teen Music Awards are targeted for teens. Modern music is blamed for the downfall of society since Rock and Roll was wrongly accused in the 1970's. Since then, nothing has changed. It is just the evolution of music. Each generation creates a new type of music. Side: No
2
points
I agree with you there, but with each new generation, the music seems to be getting worse. Ahem two things... 1.) It is less like what you are used to, it's a simple thing, like eating a new style of food for the first time. 2.) In the extreme situation of what you are describing, or in the more understandable version of this situation both similar. My personal taste in music is post-rock or instrumental electronica. I loathe words in music... Side: No
1
point
I have tried listening to modern music, but to no avail. My personal taste in music is post rock or instrumental electronica. Fine. I have no problem with what you like. It's always people telling me I should change and then they try to get me to listen to crap and it just doesn't work for me. It irks me. My personal taste in music is classical and varieties of jazz- Dixie land, big band, swing, Latin jazz, some funk. I also like some of the old rock n roll- Chuck Berry, Little Richard, The Beach Boys etc. I loathe words in music For me it depends. There are some great operas and some great jazz singers. I think some of the old rock n roll singers are amusing. Side: yes
Old generation songs are still trying to dominate the modern songs simultounsly with lyrics Lyrics Download!, Lyrics File Download!. However it's good for the new generation to move on like that Side: Yes
With each new generation, the music seems to be getting worse. I disagree. Every generation there's a really annoying and somehow popular breed of music(Now it's apparently auto-tune 'rap,' if you could even label that drivel as rap.) that people just love to get in to, but what's on the surface doesn't reflect the rest of the culture and music. I'm no expert, but I think my musical tastes are varied enough to have a somewhat decent opinion on the matter. In my personal opinion, you can always find something new and intriguing if you look hard enough.(Although, I definitely couldn't uh, guess anything for you.) Side: No
1
point
I have tried to look for things I like in modern music, but I got nothing. The only modern music that appeals to me falls under classical- movie music by John Williams, and some other movies. (Although, I definitely couldn't uh, guess anything for you.) I never asked you to and how could you? You don't even know me. Side: yes
3
points
1
point
Just cause you're a closet republican who wants to reduce government control economically doesn't mean I'm a closet homo mmmkkaayy?? You're not a closeted homo... homos are less gay than you. Example: Homosexuals do listen to Justin Beiber and wish they could impale him with their little sticks. You sure are obsessed with anal intercourse. Side: No
Uncultured fool? Lmao. 1% of my culture is worth more than 100% of your culture. But being smarter and not as hypocritical as you and just better in nearly every single way I'm not sitting here calling you an uncultured fool for not listening to Lata Mangeshkar now am I? Side: No
1
point
Uncultured fool? Lmao. Yes, Lmao is such a cultured phrase. 1% of my culture is worth more than 100% of your culture. Either your sense of worth or your mathematics are off. But being smarter and not as hypocritical as you Your intelligence is but a grain of sand to a beach compared to my own. I'm not sitting here calling you an uncultured fool for not listening to Lata Mangeshkar now am I? No, you're calling me a faggot for listening to Mozart. Thus, you are an uncultured fool. Side: yes
2
points
1
point
1
point
1
point
"LOL! Only faggot teens listen to that shit." You just offended me very deeply with that 'argument'. I would demand that you apologise, but you don't deserve the free point. That was a very mean thing for you to say. Now, I happen to think that modern music (anything after the 60's) is shit, but that doesn't mean I think everyone who listens to it is a faggot. What you said is just as stupid as calling someone a faggot because he prefers football over soccer. Side: yes
1
point
Kinda, have you heard of respect? Most people just throw the term around these days, but there's no doubt that millions of people have forgotted the pure definition of the term. You fail to respect others, and you, in this way, paint the picture of society's downfall. So, if society is failing, and you resemble society, then I suppose you fail in that sense. Whatever, my point here is to show some respect or join a forum full of hypocrites; a place where you may be playing with even opponents (everyone but Qymosabi seems to be superior to you). Side: yes
1
point
Not at all. What you experienced with modern music is just a symptom of a greater problem, it is not the cause. The problem is the over marketing of music. It used to be that the best music became the most popular with the biggest fanbase. Now it's the best marketed music. Side: No
1
point
|
